Christ's Associations with Professor John S Kloppenborg

Summary

In this episode of "We Are Being Transformed," Professor John S. Kloppenborg discusses his work on Greco-Roman associations and their intersections with early Christian movements. Kloppenborg emphasizes the importance of understanding the terminology and historical context in which terms like ecclesia and synagogue were used. He also delves into the concept of honor and shame in Mediterranean cultures and how it impacted social dynamics and group identities. This talk highlights the rich evidence available from inscriptions and papyri that provide insights into ancient associations and their societal roles.

Highlights

• Professor Kloppenborg shares insights on the term 'ecclesia,' emphasizing its original meaning of 'assembly' rather than 'church.' 📜
• Discussion on honor and shame illustrates their influence on Mediterranean cultures and their social practices. 🏅
• Kloppenborg explains how associations acted as social networks, providing community and identity in ancient societies. 🔗
• The role of meals in reinforcing or challenging social hierarchies is explored in depth. 🍴
• Insights into how individuals were held accountable in groups, sometimes leading to curses or punishments for violating rules. 🧙‍♂️

Key Takeaways

• Understanding context is crucial: Misinterpreting terms like 'ecclesia' can lead to misconceptions about early Christian groups. 🏛️
• Honor and shame shaped ancient societies: These concepts were central to identity and social interactions. 🏆
• Meals were more than just food: They represented social status and community belonging. 🍽️
• Associations filled social gaps: They provided identity and belonging in the absence of modern bureaucratic systems. 👥
• God as a patron: In some associations, deities played central roles as both hosts and participants in rituals. ⛪

Overview

Professor John S. Kloppenborg joins the show to illuminate the complex world of Greco-Roman associations and their impact on early Christianity. The discussion begins with clarifying historical terms such as 'ecclesia' and 'synagogue,' urging listeners to delve deeper into the original contexts and meanings to avoid modern misinterpretations.

The concept of honor and shame is one of the focal points of the conversation. These values were pivotal in shaping social dynamics, defining behaviors, and guiding inter-group relationship norms in the ancient Mediterranean world. Kloppenborg illustrates how these concepts played out in public debates and personal identities.

Kloppenborg also explores the rich epigraphical evidence that sheds light on the organization and functions of ancient associations. These groups not only filled social and civic roles but also created intricate networks of patronage and community, influencing modern understandings of early Christian social dynamics.

Chapters

• 00:00 - 00:30: Introduction to the Show The chapter introduces a special episode of the show 'We Are Being Transformed,' where the themes focus on exploring the various spaces and contours of reality, particularly how individuals engage with their world via rituals, cults, and lore. The episode features a guest, Dr. John Kenberg, a University of Toronto professor specializing in the study of religion and known for his influential work in the field of Q studies.
• 00:30 - 01:00: Introduction of the Guest In the chapter titled 'Introduction of the Guest,' the discussion centers around the intersection of GRE Roman associations with early Jesus movements. The conversation features Dr. Kloppenberg, who is acknowledged for his significant contributions to the subject, along with others like Richard Ascoff and Ken Harland. The introduction sets the stage for an engaging discussion on Christ associations, highlighting the scholarly work and its impact on understanding historical religious movements.
• 01:00 - 01:30: Appreciation for Dr. Kloppenborg's Work The chapter 'Appreciation for Dr. Kloppenborg's Work' explores a new mode of comparison between the Greco-Roman associations and the nascent Jesus movement. Although not universally accepted in academia, this fresh perspective is highlighted as being personally enriching by the speaker, who expresses gratitude and appreciation for Dr. Kloppenborg's contributions.
• 01:30 - 02:30: Definitions and Preliminaries In this chapter titled 'Definitions and Preliminaries', the discussion begins with an emphasis on the importance of setting definitions and understanding preliminaries before diving into the main content of the book. It highlights the need to clarify terms such as 'Ecclesia' and 'Synagogue' and their significance within the Greco-Roman context. This foundational understanding is crucial for grasping the cultural and historical milieu relevant to the subject matter. The chapter sets the stage for a deeper exploration of themes related to GRE or Roman associations.
• 02:30 - 03:30: The Importance of Terminology This chapter discusses the significance of using correct terminology, especially in theological contexts. It highlights how terms can carry different meanings and expectations, and emphasizes the importance of understanding and agreeing on the definitions of words to enhance communication and understanding. The discussion involves insights from Richard Asof, Phil Harland, and the speaker, shedding light on their approach to terminology and its impact on their work.
• 03:30 - 04:30: Contextual Understanding of Ecclesia and Synagogue The chapter discusses the importance of word choice and translation when studying religious texts, particularly the terms 'Ecclesia' and 'Synagogue'. The translation of 'Ecclesia' as 'Church' can impose a specific ecclesial perspective, demonstrating how language influences interpretation and understanding in scholarly discourse.
• 04:30 - 05:30: Comparison: Christ Groups and Other Assemblies This chapter delves into the comparison between Christ groups and other assemblies, focusing on how terms like sermons, baptism, and Christian practices emerge within these groups. The author reflects on the intention behind writing about Christ's Association, aiming to explore the cultural context in which these groups operated. They emphasize understanding the distinct practices and terminologies associated with Christ groups, setting them apart from other contemporary assemblies.
• 10:00 - 20:00: Honor, Shame, and Limited Good in Antiquity The chapter discusses the concept of 'eklesia' in Antiquity, which is often translated as 'Church' but actually means 'assembly' or 'gathering.' This translation can obscure the comparison of early Christian groups to other social structures in Antiquity, as nothing else from that time is typically referred to as 'churches.'
• 30:00 - 40:00: Memory and Membership After Death The chapter discusses the concept of 'eklesia', an assembly used in ancient Greek cities, particularly Athens, for making political decisions, which met regularly, sometimes even more than once a month.
• 40:00 - 50:00: Sources of Evidence for Greco-Roman Associations The chapter discusses the concept of 'eklesia' used in Greco-Roman contexts, particularly focusing on its usage in the citizen assemblies of the Greek city of Thessaloniki. It highlights the potential for comparison between these civic assemblies and early Christian gatherings, as both use the same term 'eklesia'. The discussion doesn't claim a direct identity between them but suggests a similarity in the function or purpose of these gatherings in their respective contexts.
• 50:00 - 60:00: Types of Evidence in Inscriptions The chapter 'Types of Evidence in Inscriptions' discusses the various kinds of evidence that can be found within inscriptions. It explores different types of inscriptions, such as historical, cultural, and linguistic evidence, and how they contribute to our understanding of past civilizations. The chapter emphasizes the significance of inscriptions as primary sources for historical research, highlighting how they provide direct insights into the thoughts, beliefs, and societal structures of ancient cultures. Additionally, it covers the methodologies used by historians and archaeologists to interpret these inscriptions, including the challenges faced in deciphering and preserving them. The chapter aims to equip readers with a foundational understanding of the role inscriptions play in reconstructing history.
• 60:00 - 70:00: The Role of Associations in Society The chapter discusses the role of associations in society, particularly focusing on the term 'synagog,' which means assembly. The speaker advises against translating the Greek word for 'synagogue' as 'synagogue' in English to avoid certain connotations and allow for a broader understanding of its meaning in context.
• 70:00 - 80:00: Funerary Practices and Honor in Death The chapter discusses the concept of synagogues and their various interpretations beyond Jewish religious assemblies. It mentions that historically, the term 'synagogue' was also used by different groups, including an occupational guild of barbers and a gathering place dedicated to Zeus, illustrating the broader use of the term beyond its commonly understood context.
• 80:00 - 90:00: Network Intersections and Patronage This chapter delves into the interpretation and usage of the term 'synagogue' in Greek contexts, highlighting its non-exclusive Jewish connotations. The discussion emphasizes that 'synagogue' and 'assembly' were terms employed broadly, not just within Jewish traditions. This linguistic understanding allows for a meaningful comparison between Christian (referred to as Christ groups) and Jewish gatherings, suggesting a shared cultural or social framework for various kinds of assemblies.
• 90:00 - 100:00: The Role of Meals in Associations The chapter discusses various terms used in Greek and Latin to describe assemblies or groups where individuals come together based on shared ethnicity, cultural practices, or neighborhood connections. These groups are a social phenomenon marked by communal gatherings and shared identities.
• 100:00 - 110:00: Institutional and Segregative Commensality The chapter delves into the significance of terminology, especially when studying historical groups within their contexts. It underscores the importance of correctly naming and understanding the function of groups like 'synagogue' or 'assembly' to accurately place them in their historical and social landscapes. The discussion emphasizes that what we call these entities is crucial for methodological accuracy, particularly when comparing Christian groups with other contemporary assemblies.
• 110:00 - 120:00: Transgressive Commensality The chapter 'Transgressive Commensality' explores unique insights into ancient Christ groups by comparing them to other assemblies of the time. It highlights both similarities and differences, emphasizing that using broader terms like 'Church' could hinder a true comparative analysis.
• 120:00 - 130:00: The God as Patron Concept The chapter titled 'The God as Patron Concept' discusses the term 'kis' in Greek, typically translated by Christians as 'Grace'. The term 'kis' in its normal Greek usage means 'gift' or the act of reciprocating a gift, which is 'thanks'. The importance of understanding this term in the early Christian context is emphasized.
• 130:00 - 135:00: Paul's Use of Divine Patronage in Corinth In this chapter, the discussion revolves around the use of certain key terms by Paul, such as 'haris' and 'episcopos,' and how they can be translated and compared to other uses in the ancient world. The chapter suggests that by understanding these terms in their original Greek meanings, more meaningful comparisons can be drawn between Paul's use and the usage by others in the same historical period.
• 135:00 - 140:00: Conclusion and Resources The chapter conveys the necessity of understanding the context and perspective of individuals encountering new information for the first time. It emphasizes that terms and concepts, such as 'Ecclesia,' differ in interpretation over time and to test one's understanding by seeing through the eyes of people of that era.

Christ's Associations with Professor John S Kloppenborg Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 and welcome everyone to a very special episode of we are being transformed here at this show we explore the Lial spaces and Contours of reality the Myriad of ways people interact with their world through the vehicles of ritual cult and lore and our guest this evening I'm very excited about we have Dr John kenberg uh Dr kenberg is a university professor at the department for the study of Religion at the University of Toronto Dr kenberg has also made seminal contributions to Q studies the synoptic
• 00:30 - 01:00 problem and the intersection of GRE Roman associations with the early Jesus movements is the author of the subject of our discussion tonight Christ associations so Dr kloppenberg welcome thanks very much for having me oh always an honor um so Dr kloppenberg um I want to preface this by uh thanking you thanking you for your work um not only you but Richard ascoff uh Ken Harland and another
• 01:00 - 01:30 it creates kind of a fresh mode of comparison with the GRE Roman associations and the nent Jesus movement right uh it's just uh a very fresh way of looking at at these uh movements and I know not everybody in Academia agrees but um I find it personally very enriching so um just prefacing everything with a thank you for your work thank you awesome
• 01:30 - 02:00 so normally we jump right into the book but I believe there's important PR prola to tackle here um so some definitions and preliminaries um I always like to start this especially when we talk about the subject of GRE or Roman associations on on the channel uh can we have a de definition of Ecclesia and synagogue uh the meaning and why is it important to understand them and the Greco Roman Matrix um the millu of the time uh that
• 02:00 - 02:30 we're talking about as opposed to theological um expectations of what these words mean okay that's a great way to start the um and it sort of gets ultimately to the heart of uh What uh Richard asof and Phil Harland and I have been doing so I'd Begin by saying that it really makes a difference what we call things um and
• 02:30 - 03:00 the way we classify the things that we want to talk about as Scholars and U uh which is also when you're translating uh something from Greek or Latin it makes a difference what word you use to do the translation uh because um if if for example you translate Ecclesia as Church uh it immediately puts us into what I would call an eccl an ecclesial
• 03:00 - 03:30 register um that is so we now we now terms like sermons and baptism and Christian practices and so forth become you know come into the Horizon of that word um so when I wrote when I when I wrote Christ's Association uh what I wanted to do as a historian was to think about the cultural context in which Christ groups
• 03:30 - 04:00 uh were born and the the cultural context in which they functioned and so to call them to to to translate eklesia as Church made it almost impossible to compare Christ groups to anything else because there's no other things from Antiquity that we call churches uh eklesia as I think probably most of your listeners know means assembly or gathering um and we have plenty of G of we have plenty of
• 04:00 - 04:30 assemblies in uh in Antiquity um the term eklesia was the normal term used by Greek cities to refer to their citizen assembly the the assembly that would meet periodically once a month or maybe even more frequently than that to make decisions about to make political decisions um so they the the citizen assembly of Athens was was called the eklesia
• 04:30 - 05:00 the citizen assembly of Thessaloniki was called the eklesia so um when you when you translate Christian Ecclesia as assemblies it immediately uh allows you to make some comparisons not necessarily claiming identity but but but uh seeing that that in in some sense this was the same kind of thing uh that Greek cities were talking about eklesia is also the term
• 05:00 - 05:30 that the
• 05:30 - 06:00 uh uh better term um it's also true that the term sinagog uh also means assembly um now uh uh the term synagog is close to the English term synagogue uh but this is also a term you know I I would not translate the Greek word synagogue as synagogue because for the same reason it it immediately uh orients the reader or the the you the
• 06:00 - 06:30 person reading the book to oh I'm really talking about Jewish synagogues well uh no I'm talking about Jewish assemblies or Judean assemblies uh and it turns out that there's actually there were other assemblies that called themselves synagog that had nothing to do with Judaism we know that there was an occupational Guild called that called itself a synagogue of Barbers uh there were there was at least one synagogue devoted to Zeus so the
• 06:30 - 07:00 term synagogue in Greek is not an exclusively Jewish term uh it's a term that was used by other people when they wanted to talk about an assembly or a gathering or something like that um so the the point in using uh assembly as a translation of uh eclesia or of synagogue is uh to make it possible for me to carefully compare Christ groups and Jewish groups to
• 07:00 - 07:30 analogous groups um that also called themselves by a variety of terms mostly all meaning assembly there's a whole there's actually a large number of terms in Greek and in Latin that refer to the same this the same social phenomena that is people getting together uh because they have a similar ethnicity or a similar cult that they want to uh engage in or or sometimes even a neighborhood group can be called a
• 07:30 - 08:00 synagogue or an assembly or a Theos um so that's the the the point is really a kind of methodological point and it goes back to the this original principle that what we call things is actually important especially when we're going to think about situating the groups that we're interested in in their historical context um and it turns out that when you set Christ groups alongside these other assemblies from
• 08:00 - 08:30 Antiquity you learn a lot of very interesting things that you wouldn't Norm you wouldn't naturally have even spotted um uh you you see the ways in which Christ groups were quite like other assemblies in the ancient world and you see some interesting ways in which they were different um but if I had simply used the term Church it would have in a sense blocked a real comparison from these other kinds of ancient assemblies so that's really the
• 08:30 - 09:00 point and I would make analogous points in you know the the term kis in Greek um uh gets typically translated by Christians as Grace well kis is a normal Greek word that means gift uh or it means the it's either gift or the thing that you do when you reciprocate a gift that is thanks um uh so if we want to understand uh what early Christians were
• 09:00 - 09:30 really talking about when they Ed terms like haris uh or episcopos which we translate as Bishop simply means a supervisor uh or a number of other terms then if you use what I think of as normal transl normal Greek translations then uh you can start to do some meaningful comparison with how other persons in the ancient world use the same terms yeah thank you so much for that answer I I think what I'd like to add to
• 09:30 - 10:00 that is is it's not only important for us to understand the context but also extremely important to put ourselves in the shoes of one of these people like who are just hearing this for the first time what does what does Ecclesia mean to them does it mean church at this point in time no it doesn't it means you know they un they have an understanding and a basic Matrix of how they interpret that word at the time right yeah exactly yeah that's that's exactly the point yeah yeah thank you um so I know this is at first glance gonna
• 10:00 - 10:30 seem not related but um this was an ubiquitous thing in GRE the Greco Roman Mediterranean World in general um I feel it's very important to understand the Dynamics uh it's very important in terms of understanding the the uh dynamics of associations um you have a lot of people com competing for lack of a better term for this Prestige this honor to show their place in society right so if you could just give a brief rundown of what
• 10:30 - 11:00 honor and shame is and the concept of limited good and Antiquity sure um these are honor shame and limited good are are I think somewhat difficult things for uh modern North Americans to understand um uh and it's because U honor shame cultures are typically collectivist cultures that is there are cultures in which uh the kind of basic building block of
• 11:00 - 11:30 personality and identity is a larger group a family a clan maybe a village uh maybe even an ethnicity like by being a thran or a Judean or something like that uh North Americans uh think that the basic think of them identity as uh as built on what I am as an individual the things that I do the things that I believe the things that I accomplish and so forth um whereas in collectivist
• 11:30 - 12:00 culture cultures identity is really a function of what my group does uh where it stands in relationship to other groups and what my group thinks of me or that is how my group uh treats me um and you know you know I I I'm being sort of artificially schematic in in contrasting individualistic North
• 12:00 - 12:30 American culture where everything is built on the self and collectivist culture where everything is founded on uh a group identity it's not quite that simple there's all sorts of ways in which uh we as as modern North Americans also have collectivist aspects that is it you know Canadians think of themselves differently as than Americans do or than Germans do and so forth so there are still collectivist aspects in our culture but let's pretend to be you
• 12:30 - 13:00 know a kind of a binary distinction i' I'd actually like to um illustrate this with an anecdote uh when I lived in Jerusalem I lived at a the first the first uh year I was there uh I spent uh I spent a year at a place called tantour acumenical Institute which is typically a place where they would have year long Scholars working on various projects there and that's what I was there for uh but it would also have uh groups uh of
• 13:00 - 13:30 uh almost all always Christians coming to see the holy land for a week or two and they would stay at ton tour um so I'm sitting in the coffee in the coffee room one day uh talking with Esau who is the um who is one who is one of the receptionists he's a Palestinian Christian uh isau is actually the Arabic uh equivalent of Jesus uh as a name pretty a common Christian Arabic
• 13:30 - 14:00 Christian name anyhow Issa and I are talking and a young woman who's just come from the US uh on one of these weekl long or two weekl long uh tours of the Holy Land she comes in and she starts chatting with isau and and isau says that he's Christian and I can tell by her reaction that she's stunned at this because she thinks of all Arabs as Muslim and so is
• 14:00 - 14:30 very surprised to learn that he's Christian and so she asks him um how long have you been a Christian and he replies 1300 years now um what was interesting about this is that uh his way of thinking about himself embedded himself in his family in his clan in his village which happened to be Bethlehem uh so Bethlehem at at Le at that point was about 95 or maybe even
• 14:30 - 15:00 100% Christian so when uh to ask the question when w you know when did he become a Christian well he became a Christian at the time that Constantine became a Christian because they think of themselves as a kind of unbroken uh Collective culture that goes back to that time whereas uh I think most North American uh uh persons would understand what her question was what time when as an individual did you give
• 15:00 - 15:30 your heart to Jesus or whatever the the the the uh however they conceptualized conversion and uh I've sort of I I I listened to this conversation I realized that he had no idea what she was really asking him she was asking him about how many years ago was he converted and she had no idea what his answer meant uh because it didn't make any sense to her that to say that he was 1300 years old
• 15:30 - 16:00 um but this nicely Illustrated the difference between an individualist culture American culture where what you do as a as an individual makes all the difference and his culture where who you are and what you belong to is what constitutes you as a person and in his case it was he was the bethlehemite his family had always been Christian that's what made him that that's what that that's what his answer to the question was so this is a kind roundabout way of
• 16:00 - 16:30 getting uh getting to your question in collect in collectivist culture cultures um what makes all the difference to identity is the group in which you are embedded and uh uh now your actions can contribute to the reputation of the group or they can detract from the reputation of the group uh depending on uh on what you do um honor and shame are sometimes coded uh in gender terms that honor is a
• 16:30 - 17:00 masculine thing and shame is a feminine thing that's a little bit misleading um but it's certainly true that um there are uh that some of the virtues in honor shame cultures are gendered uh are gendered uh in the sense that masculinity is connected with bravery and assertiveness and U uh being able to win arguments or actually to be win to win battles um whereas um feminine virtues
• 17:00 - 17:30 have to do with protection of fertility um uh protection of the home uh and uh and virtues like that um and in in honor shame cultures what you um uh the kinds of interactions that you often seen see is in public space males will get into contests with one another um and a good example of this is if you
• 17:30 - 18:00 read the synoptic gospels Jesus is frequently in contests with various kinds of opponents often the Pharisees or the scribes where they challenge Jesus uh for doing something or other or or because his disciples do something and he is able to best them usually with a single fast answer um those who are who are ill have uh have no need of a sorry those who are well have no need of
• 18:00 - 18:30 a physician but those who are sick I came to call uh Sinners um and uh typically the opponents are silenced at that point and being silenced means in this kind of culture that you have been Dishonored you that is you you have been your attempt to assert yourself over an opponent has been thwarted by the cleverness of the opponent um so the gospels will say but they could not answer or they were silent that's a way
• 18:30 - 19:00 of saying saying they'd lost they'd lost this battle that Jesus had gained honor and they had lost it because they couldn't they couldn't reply to his uh clever answer um this is that that's the kind of exchange that you find in honor shame cultures sometimes it comes to physical aggression where the stronger or the more agile or the the the the better fighter wins and then other kind in other cases is it's it's a verbal
• 19:00 - 19:30 battle that goes on but what's at stake is standing and honor uh so Jesus wins honor and the crowds admire that that is you see someone who performs well because they're representing a group behind them and they're sort of fronting that group and the uh uh and and the Pharisees or the scribes are also fronting a group um that is striving for position and honor and uh what you see in those exchanges
• 19:30 - 20:00 is a kind of uh battle over honor yeah it's it's it's actually true if you look in the Hebrew Bible that there are instances where where women also end up uh displaying that kind of Bravery or aggressive at aggressive behavior an example of this is in the Book of Judges When ya uh uh sneaks into the tent of this uh Canaanite General named cicora
• 20:00 - 20:30 and drives a tent Peg through his Temple and kills him well uh she's there actually um in sort of ancient Mediterranean terms she's instantiating a male virtue of bravery and and aggression and uh Ingenuity uh and that's one of the reasons that she's heroized that is she's she's doing something out of the ordinary when one looks at kind of traditional gender roles uh so it's not that women can't be brave and they can't
• 20:30 - 21:00 they can't be assertive but at least in these cultures it's a little less uh usual to see them in those roles and similarly uh it's uh it's a it's a shame for a man to take on feminine roles because that's take you know in these cultures that's that that's not um uh displaying the kind of Virtues that are going to lead lend an lend honor to your group uh and lend honor to yourself so
• 21:00 - 21:30 um this is very very different from the way in which North Americans think of themselves uh I I suppose the uh one possible analogy would be you know gangs in in the US where there are honor codes and the behavior of one one person in the group reflects on the honor or the status of the entire gang and either POS positively or negatively uh they can
• 21:30 - 22:00 dishonor the group or they can or they can honor the group that's probably one social setting in which honor shame uh uh Behavior actually still happens in in the US and Canada um but for the for the most part you know most I think North Americans don't think in th in those terms but so that's U uh that's sort of the way in which uh honor and shame cultures work um you asked the question about Limited good uh this is also um
• 22:00 - 22:30 it's an interesting concept and the the idea behind limited good is that honor is always in short supply or in a finite Supply which means that if you and I get into a debate about something or rather in especially in public space where other people are watching us and you happen to best me uh in that debate uh then you have gained honor and I've lost it it's as if honor is a kind of commodity that moves between uh between
• 22:30 - 23:00 persons and if you've got more of it it means I've got less of it um uh I you know I I have to say that this notion of limited good is not quite as mathematical uh as as it might sound um uh but in as a kind of you know back of the envelope um uh schematic diagram we can sort of use this as a as an idea and it's or as a model uh and it does imply
• 23:00 - 23:30 that um in these exchanges there are winners and losers um both people in a contest don't get honor you get it or or and I lose it or I get it and you lose it um so that's that's what limited good actually means it sort of imagines honor to be a finite commodity that moves back and forth and uh you try to get as much of it as you can um and uh and you try not to lose uh as
• 23:30 - 24:00 much as as you can because it has a reflection on your your own identity group your family um you know a a a family that starts losing honor also has a difficult time in in getting appropriate wives for their sons and appropriate husbands for their daughters um uh a a family or a clan that has lots
• 24:00 - 24:30 and lots of Honor uh is not going to have any difficulty doing that so it has some real life um implications if you happen to come from uh a group that has lots of Honor or that you come from a group that is completely Dishonored um uh you get no respect uh public respect when you go out uh you can't um you can't marry off your sons and daughters uh appropri um uh so it's it's as if you know the
• 24:30 - 25:00 gas tank is you your your Clan's gas tank is empty uh or almost empty uh whereas somebody who's got lots and lots of Honor uh their gas tank is full yeah thank you for that answer yeah um the audience may be kind of wondering why are we spending so much time on this but the reason why is um everything Dr kloppenberg is talking right now takes place in that meal room
• 25:00 - 25:30 everybody's sitting you know and they're all vying for honor and uh you know so Dr kloppenberg is uh at this clenia over here and I'm over here I want to be where he's at and maybe next time he'll be over here right so they're all they're all competing at that time um and this is especially going on with like uh what he Dr kloppenberg you talk about in your book about um these kind of funds that people give
• 25:30 - 26:00 to the associations even if they're not necessarily related to them or affiliated with them to remember them and their families um this in a way is also another way of attaining Honor even in the after yeah absolutely yeah so that's that's why we're talking about this everyone it really gives us a nice um focal point by which to understand these seemingly very simple um meals and places that people have in this uh these
• 26:00 - 26:30 associations it's very complex stuff going on here so um I hope you will all um get something of value out of that uh Dr kenberg um before we get more into it I I wanted to ask you uh what our main sources for evidence of Greco Roman associations are um because I want to preface this by saying that um just as a model um there seems to be a rich amount of evidence compared other kind of models for like say the old Neo Orthodox
• 26:30 - 27:00 uh old way of looking at the church is like this completely brand new thing and the gospels is this completely brand new self generated thing uh we really have almost an embarrassment of riches uh when it comes to this evidence so I don't know if you could talk about that absolutely we've got there's there's lots and lots of evidence but it's it's a different kind of evidence than U has been paid attention too much uh in the
• 27:00 - 27:30 past so um uh most people will have learned about the history of Christianity by reading literary texts literary texts that Christians themselves produced uh and to some extent um literary texts from uh various persons in Antiquity like suetonius or uh tacitus or plenty the Elder um and others now um uh all of those kinds of sources are are useful sources of
• 27:30 - 28:00 information but um uh but uh we know of we know of associations principally through inscriptions through uh through inscriptions on Stone uh and uh also from Papi that started to be discovered at the end of the 19th century uh from Egypt and uh uh and it turns out that we that those kinds of uh those kinds of
• 28:00 - 28:30 sources provide a a rather different perspective on associations than um than say Elite Roman writers like U plyy the elder or suetonius and so forth um uh these these Elites knew about associations and talk about them they call them colia and Tazo and a number of other terms but uh they they intended to regard them as nuisances uh of non-elite persons who uh
• 28:30 - 29:00 got together uh occasionally and got drunk and uh made a nuisance of themselves in the uh in the city that's probably not entirely untrue uh but from inscriptions we actually learn a great deal more about associations uh and and these inscriptions are for the most part um uh inscriptions that are composed by and written by by the associations themselves and so we have uh let me say
• 29:00 - 29:30 four different kinds of data um from inscriptions uh the first kind of data are um bylaws so we have about 30 or so uh examples of uh of the rules of behavior of uh of particular Association so we've got very very long inscription from uh from the midc Century of a DIC
• 29:30 - 30:00 Association how you get in what the what the membership fees are what you can do at dinner what you can't do at dinner uh and and so forth we've got other we've got other rules uh from U uh demotic associations in Egypt from uh from Latin associations in Italy um that basically lay out the same kinds of things that is uh what are the membership do how how you get in do you get in through
• 30:00 - 30:30 a nomination by another member or by a by a parent uh rules for behavior um this is uh and some of these inscriptions some of these rules are interestingly close to what you see Paul saying in one Corinthians uh but we just wouldn't know any if it weren't for inscriptions we wouldn't know anything at all about how these groups conducted themselves so a second kind of data that we have are lists of members uh and
• 30:30 - 31:00 we've got hundreds of these rosters or they're called Alba U album or Alba in the plural uh they simply give us the names the membership uh a membership list of these groups which is interesting because um uh when one studies the names uh ancient names you can tell a great deal about the social status I think you know that that um Roman citizens will
• 31:00 - 31:30 have a three-part name uh a Gomen a um a proman a nen and a Cogan uh whereas people who are not Roman citizens will not have that three-part name um there are certain names that are typical slave names um there are uh other kinds of markers that you can see on both Greek and Latin names that will tell you something as to whether the person is an immigrant uh to Athens or whatever City the inscription is found in whether
• 31:30 - 32:00 they're male or female you can tell that by the gender um so when you when you have all these um Alba or rosters you start it's like being able to see a group photo of the group uh we're not seeing obviously a picture of what the people look like but we're seeing the equivalent of a group photo when you see the names and typically the most important people the leaders are always named at the begin sometimes in bigger letters um and other
• 32:00 - 32:30 people are named farther down the lists um sometimes we've got uh lists that were compiled over 10 20 50 years and so you can actually see how the how the association grew as names were added um so we it's almost like getting a moving picture of what the group looked like who belonged whether it was gender inclusive or gender exclusive whether it included slaves or only
• 32:30 - 33:00 citizens whether it included foreigners as well as Athenians um so uh that those kind of data are really important for getting for giving us a kind of picture of what the group looked like we also have funerary inscriptions you mentioned uh this right at the beginning of your question um where associations often took care of burying their members uh and there's other questions that we could come back to on that but um uh uh
• 33:00 - 33:30 some of them owned their own uh cemeteries and buried their members in those cemeteries U and we also have honorific inscriptions that is when a person a certain member of the group or sometimes an external Patron distinguished themselves in certain ways the uh the association would get an inscription cut that praised or commended the person for certain kinds of uh actions and behaviors um so that gives us a a kind
• 33:30 - 34:00 of U insight into the RIT some of the ritual processes that that these groups uh had so these are the kind of data that we wouldn't get at all from reading Plenty or suetonius or terellian or authors like this it's an entirely different kind of data that gives us a very different kind of picture uh of what associations were doing how they constituted themselves what kinds of associations there were um turns out
• 34:00 - 34:30 there's multiple kinds there's there's groups that are organized around the cult of a deity uh the sarasti are organized around the cult of sarapis uh or the U uh or organized around an ethnic identity the thians who live in Athens or the judeans who live in friia um we have neighborhood associations the the association of the 18th Street um and we have
• 34:30 - 35:00 uh uh uh occupational guilds people who organize themselves around a common trade we're Builders or we are um Dock Workers or we are boatmen or boat Builders and so there's all all sorts of ways in which these groups constituted themselves um and again that's not really the kind of data that we would get from Reading literary sources you only really get this from looking at epigraphical material at at
• 35:00 - 35:30 inscriptional material and uh and papar laical material and that since associate since EP epigraphy inscriptions started to get published in the mid part of the eight of the 19th century and papy at the end of the 19th century we've ALS we've all of a sudden come into an enormous uh um fund uh of uh of data that can be used to think about how
• 35:30 - 36:00 Ordinary People in the ancient world organized themselves uh into small groups and that's after all what early Christian groups were they were small they were groups of ordinary people who organized themselves around the cult of Christ so you I see I see you've got here an image of Phil harland's uh web uh page associations in the G in the Greco Roman world this is really a marvelous resource uh because it gives you not only the Greek H and Latin texts
• 36:00 - 36:30 of these Association inscriptions and a translation of them but as you as you're scrolling through you can see you you've got images of what the inscriptions actually look like some of them have pictures involved some of them are just text um some many of them would have been set up in public space where by standers could look at these things and see who is in the membership list of of the uh leather workers or could walk into a graveyard and notice that that um
• 36:30 - 37:00 the uh linen Weavers had buried uh such and such a person uh so there's an enormous amount of data that can be uh gleaned from uh this inscriptional material which Phil has put on his uh his website yeah it's a it's a great resource um I I think I wanted to get uh the one thing I wanted to get just to mention before we move on um you mentioned that these inscriptions are
• 37:00 - 37:30 almost kind of like a yearbook or something like that or like an IM like a like a you know it's like a a family uh like when you used to take photos like home movies and things it's very interesting like I really like this uh I can't remember what the association was but they had one of those areas where everybody had their um earns together I can't remember what that's called exactly yes but asov asov said that one of the inscriptions was like uh they're even vying in death right for like a place to put their NN you know so it's
• 37:30 - 38:00 like one of them is like one of them is like may my brothers be cursed if they move my ear to get a better place in line or whatever it's very interesting I I love that um yeah that's right you so you fight in life and you actually fight in death who who has the biggest conion and monuments yeah it's amazing I love yeah um so Dr kloppenberg uh let's just kind of touch upon this a little bit more so um as the subtitle of your book says um
• 38:00 - 38:30 and harlon even would say uh Association associations are about claiming a place in society right so could you give some examples of the network intersections I know you've talked a lot about um the ferary um patronage things like that the bound associations but if there's any others that you feel we haven't touched upon feel free to uh use this time to well this again is a uh I think it's important for for modern
• 38:30 - 39:00 uh a modern audience to understand the differences um between us uh in the modern world and persons in Antiquity um so uh whether we're real whether we realize it or not uh every day uh bureaucratic structures and the way in which modern societies are organized immediately give me a place in the world so um uh I'm on a voters list that
• 39:00 - 39:30 locates me somewhere in Canada uh or in in uh in Toronto or at least in Ontario um uh I have a Social Insurance Number I've got all sorts of bureaucratic means that locate me in the world I've got an address on my house uh I've got an office uh at the University and so forth so all these all of those devices are ways to locate in time and space um in
• 39:30 - 40:00 the ancient world you've got nothing like a bureaucratic culture at all so if uh and especially because of increased Mobility uh that is people uh many people don't live any longer in the in the village in which they were born uh slavery was one of the mechanisms that removed people from their birth families and their birth their their City their cities or Villages of birth and countries of birth um uh Commerce the
• 40:00 - 40:30 fact that you can move around the Mediterranean relative with relative ease now uh also moved people from one area to another um and so uh human Mobility meant that um we had now thians who lived in Athens instead of in th we had judeans who lived in friia or in Rome instead of in Palestine uh and uh so you have people who are
• 40:30 - 41:00 dislocated um uh living now in a different in a different culture and the question is if you happen to be a kind of an individual who simply has been moved by virtue of slavery or Commerce or whatever or tourism for that matter to another place then the question is how do you fit in now now that you are located in Rome or now that you're located in Athens well one of the things that people did is immediately connect
• 41:00 - 41:30 themselves with other persons um in in a comparable category that is if you happen to be a scop poos a tent maker or an awning maker as Paul was as Prisa and Aquilla were well one of the things you would do is connect yourself with with other skin o poo uh in uh in Corinth or in in Thessaloniki if you happen to be a Judean um an xate from from Palestine
• 41:30 - 42:00 then you connect yourself with other judeans in that in in that place um uh and there all sorts of other ways of of creating space or that is of of of uh creating belongingness in a in a Civic situation where unless you were connected somewhere in the world you were like a kind of a free electron moving around never finding an atom to to connect yourself with if I can use a kind of
• 42:00 - 42:30 physics analogy um so no one wants to be in that situation because uh you you know people need to belong somewhere uh we've got other mechanisms that allow us to belong uh sort of automatically in in our society but uh ancient people had to come up with other ways of of of belonging so belonging and connecting uh are critical things that ancient people thought about and associations were one
• 42:30 - 43:00 of the ways that you uh connected or uh or belonged I've just lost can you see me I can see you can oh you might have to come back in okay no wait a sec it says looks like your camera is unplugged um oh I don't know what happened there oh it's okay okay I don't know what what happens uh maybe it'll reconnect in a bit uh
• 43:00 - 43:30 let's hope anyhow U so uh so I'm just a circle on the screen now talking you can also try to leave and come back in uh come back into the stream if you need to oh I can try that um uh let sorry everyone technical difficulties we are live so how's everybody doing thank you for tuning in um I appreciate each and every
• 43:30 - 44:00 one of you for watching um you're all fabulous and all that fun stuff so um give us a few seconds
• 44:00 - 44:30 anybody reading any good books lately I'm reading uh what am I reading I am reading a lot of stuff but let's see oh there we go that looks like I did it yep there you go yeah it's it's a streamyard is a very finicky thing at times um yeah I don't know what I don't know what was happening but any so these are the you know associations were uh basically ways for people who often unrelated to one
• 44:30 - 45:00 another by Blood allowed them to to form durable associations um that gave them identity that gave them a place uh in the city that otherwise they would not have had um uh Elites had their own families they had their own ways of socializing but the non- elite uh unless you were connected to an association you were a kind of free floating uh electron as it as it were um and to
• 45:00 - 45:30 you know to get back to your question about honor and um uh and so forth patronage becomes a really important thing um uh so associations of various sorts often tried to get connected to uh Elite persons um Senate in Rome these would be Senators people belong having senatorial or equestrian status uh in uh
• 45:30 - 46:00 in Greece to people who are Greek citizens dammen uh and the reason that you would do this is because uh to be for your Association let's say of leather workers to be connected to uh uh an elite person gives you uh Prestige because now you are a group that is being patronized or support supported by someone very much higher up the the social ladder than you are and
• 46:00 - 46:30 it gives you a kind of prestige uh and it also gives you resources um they can uh the wealthy person the elite person can give you access to uh some of their channels of influence and wealth um they can make it easier for you uh to build a clubhouse in the city um there's all sort of things that they can they can do for you and in return uh so that's what the
• 46:30 - 47:00 patron might give to you but in return you give the patron honor and recognition uh so typically they will uh celebrate the Patron's birthday um uh they will have a special Feast acknowledging the Patron's birthday and once the patron has died uh they will yearly go uh to the cery and have a meal or have some kind of Celebration or some
• 47:00 - 47:30 kind of commemoration of the patron uh largess towards them uh it's a way for the patron to be ensured Eternal memory uh that is somebody for the rest that this is the kind of theory for some for the rest of time this group and their predic their successors will continue yearly to honor his grave and to indicate what wonderful person he or she was um and in exchange for that the
• 47:30 - 48:00 the association usually gets some kind of endowment or resources uh that allows them to engage in this commemoration so uh patronage and the exchange of Honor was something that happened uh pretty commonly uh within associations that's one of the ways they supported themselves yeah absolutely it's uh and it also ties into that whole fictive kinship ship that really held a lot of these groups together you know and the
• 48:00 - 48:30 patronage that um kind of stuck stuck them between you know the the higher levels of society and the maybe the free Flo frating uh free floating electrons as you said I like that um and that actually brings me to I wasn't going to ask this till later but it brings me to a point before I forget um as a free floating uh free floating electron somebody without Roots if you're not in one of these um associations these collegia um it really
• 48:30 - 49:00 and this goes back to my reading of ascoff as well on first uh and second Thessalonians um it really adds to to our understanding of this existential dread of being excluded even in death right so what I really liked with asco's uh talking or commentary on uh thessal he talks about chapter 4 18 through uh 14 through 18 and really when
• 49:00 - 49:30 you read this like through like a theological lens you're you're you're automatically going to go to Paul's talking about soteriology that's what the Thessalonians are asking him about right but really if you're bound to these associations in life and in death and you know you're being buried together and you aren't I'm convinced by asof this that they thessal the Thessalonian group in Macedonia were not
• 49:30 - 50:00 Christians to begin with they were some other kind of Association right before Paul came to them and did his pitch yeah probably a trade Association Artisans yeah yeah exactly and and what I found fascinating was um he did this article on this uh this small sentence that you read and you if you're reading it devotionally you're not going to think anything about you're like okay he's talking about what's going to happen when the Lord comes back or these people you know Christians but they're saying
• 50:00 - 50:30 what they're really asking is this really huge existential problem of who still belongs in their group and I just I found that amazing so I didn't know if you had any uh thoughts on that yeah it's it's really interesting that this actually also goes back to the notion of collectivist cultures where what constitutes you as a person is the group to which you belong and if you read that section in 1 Thessalonians 4 carefully you'll see that Paul uses the term those
• 50:30 - 51:00 who are dead in Christ so he's already using a collective term that is uh the whole Thessalonian group whether they're alive or dead at the moment are in Christ that is they belong to this collectivity U called in Christ and U so the question that evidently the Thessalonian group is asking of Paul is what happens to those of us who have
• 51:00 - 51:30 died uh are we without hope that is have we you know sort of disappeared from the group and his answer is no no you you haven't and then he comes up with this rather complicated scenario that that at the parosa the dead in Christ will raise will rise first and then uh we and we who are alive and those who have just been raised will be caught up together notice how collectivist his thinking is that is it's not individuals who are uh
• 51:30 - 52:00 you know who are saved it's the group that is saved um uh and and then we will uh forever be with the Lord he's talk you know his his notion of Salvation or SOA is a collectivist notion that you're saved as a group you're saved because you are a member of the group um uh soteria uh or salvation uh you know in I think in
• 52:00 - 52:30 modern North American discourse uh is tends to be thought of as a kind of individual thing you know evangelicals will an will ask you are you saved as if this is a u uh this is something that is peculiar to individuals but that's actually not the way Paul thinks at all he thinks of saa's Salvation which is safety which is flourishing in life and in death uh is a collectivist thing that
• 52:30 - 53:00 is you are saved because you are a member of Christ uh and uh if you're a member of Christ then uh then uh you can experience what he calls SAA salvation uh if you're not then you're in trouble um uh but in that sense he's not he's not unlike uh you know other the the ways in which other mediterran Ians would think of the notion of Salvation or safety that is your safety you your
• 53:00 - 53:30 safety obtains uh by by virtue of membership in a group whether you're a Roman and therefore uh you're you benefit from from uh from what constitutes Romans As Romans or you're a sarapi Asti you're a sarap you're a carapus worshipper and therefore you benefit from what the group benefits from and so forth so it's a it's a collectivist notion of Salvation or safety that he's
• 53:30 - 54:00 that he's promulgating uh in one Thessalonians and in one Corinthians um so it it really it really is uh quite different from this kind of individualistic notion that we tend to have as North Americans yeah it's it's a so so so toia is is definitely another term that I think we need to kind of take off those um Eccles those kind of theological goggles es if you're looking at it from
• 54:00 - 54:30 a historical point of view a lot of people get very excited when they see this term uh you know oh you know uh Julius Caesar or Augustus was the so teror right but like you find that in Greco Roman novels all the time too I mean it's just you know it's just a it's so yeah we need to look at it in their historical context to thank you for pointing out that um very important you know it's interesting that um uh belonging to an association uh was a kind of Lifetime
• 54:30 - 55:00 and after lifetime proposition uh and what I mean by that is um you became a member of an association sometimes by paying dues or bying going through some kind of entrance ritual and participating in the life of the association but one of the things that was very that is repeated again and again in these Association rules is that when somebody dies when one of their members dies all of the the living members have to participate in the funeral and they're actually fined
• 55:00 - 55:30 if they don't um and uh and the idea here is that the the deceased person never ceases to be a member of the group they will continually be honored uh uh in that group because they were a leather worker or a sarap pastes or whatever uh they have or or a Christ believer a CH a christianos they their membership in the group is not
• 55:30 - 56:00 terminated by death and in fact the funerary rituals these people engaged in tells you that they imagined uh the members uh membership to continue after death and that's certainly not you know that notion is not unfamiliar to Christians um you know there's this whole notion of the communion of the saints that develops in the medieval period and the communion of the Saints is not just the whoever uh at
• 56:00 - 56:30 any given time are living Christians it's a notion that the communion of the Saints is a group of persons who are currently Christians and who and who have died as Christians and they continue to be a communion or an assembly or an association uh so it's you know it's an interesting notion that um uh that death is is not the end of membership for these groups nor is it for Christian groups um uh you know and Paul in one
• 56:30 - 57:00 one in in Philippians says you know who shall separate me from the the love of Christ it it is not you know death nor life that that would be a sentiment that many members of associations would absolutely agree with of course death is not death does not terminate my membership I continue to be a membership a member and my fellow members will continue to honor me as a member uh every year in in my death uh they'll continue to be out there at the grave
• 57:00 - 57:30 and they'll be then they'll continue to to bury other members along with me in the same columbarium or the same uh Cemetery um so it's a it's an there's a kind of interesting notion of immortality that that obtains in these groups yeah I love that um it goes back to um the point we were making earlier these people are they're eating together they're living together but you know
• 57:30 - 58:00 these when you die they're still eating you're still eating with the group you're still you're right you know I mean people make this huge deal about Christians meeting meeting and catacombs or things like this but we have to understand that you know ferary uh aspects of the living with the dead people lived with the dead in in Rome you know you everywhere you look death was you know ubiquitous so you know you're you're existing um with your
• 58:00 - 58:30 brothers and sorry johanis can't get away from Json uh no matter you know even in death unfortunately he's got to be next to him in the columbarium or he's got to be he's got to still deal with him if he's if one of them is still alive at the banquet so it's yeah it's very yeah you know we've got cemeteries there's a there's a cemetery just outside of AA that has dining rooms in it um and it has a kitchen uh so I mean as soon as you see dining rooms in a
• 58:30 - 59:00 kitchen you know these are not there as window dressing these are there because people are eating there um they're cooking food and they're sitting and eating they're eating with the dead because uh as you know as we've we said death actually doesn't end your membership uh and uh the the group will continue to to recognize you as a member by eating with eating at the cemetery with you this this uh cemetery is called is Sola sakra just outside of AA and it's and there's all
• 59:00 - 59:30 sorts of uh there there's um a there's a Binum that is a a um a two benches on which you would Dy right in front of many of the tombs which so this tells you that this was you know eating with the dead was a was a perfectly normal thing to do yeah we we tend to in our modern Western Society not understand just
• 59:30 - 60:00 how much we put these divides between life and death versus if you're looking at these Mediterranean societies at that time it's it's just very um very eye openening and uh very fresh models so thank you for that answer as well um so Dr kenberg I know we're running low on time did you have um time to answer a couple more questions sure sure happy to awesome so we were talking just now about common sality with the dead um
• 60:00 - 60:30 meals are a huge aspect not only of associations and col colia but also of like the Mediterranean World in general it's it's it's in a sense probably the most common ritual we make a huge deal about these um quote unquote ritual developments of the Lord's Supper but if you look at um these associations it's not really that far off right so I wanted to shift our discussion to commonality for a bit um meals in both
• 60:30 - 61:00 the imaginative and very concrete sense map especially um I'm using the terms that Jay-Z Smith used um you know it shows where people belong on this social scale as we we've been talking about this whole time like where where do I fit in where do I belong in this Society so could you just talk a little bit about commonality uh for a bit and just the importance of it yeah that this is such an this is
• 61:00 - 61:30 such an interesting question and it um uh I guess I'd preface my comments by saying that I I I've been influenced by a model that a medievalist named Claude grion had proposed on uh on commonalities and he he looked at the way in which people ate together and and there and ID identified several different things that happen when you have a meal I mean meals obviously they
• 61:30 - 62:00 feed you um but uh meals are important for all sorts of other reasons too because there's a certain kind of grammar or or or structure or message that different kinds of meals uh give U and he identified at least three different kinds of Meals one that he calls institutional common salad so that's the kind of meal uh where uh the
• 62:00 - 62:30 the function of the meal is to reinforce existing social relationships normally between more powerful and less powerful people so um that we we know that there are plenty of those kinds of meals in Antiquity where very wealthy people would have uh public meals with lay on public meals um where they would distribute food and so forth to the general population uh and the point the point of that kind of meal is to reinforce the social
• 62:30 - 63:00 relationships that exist between Elites and powerful and non- Elites and not not so powerful powerful persons uh so he calls that institutional um uh commonality because it's really designed to maintain the status quo I was thinking uh whether we have any examples of that right now I would say I mean one of the examples where that kind of commonality exists would be fundraising
• 63:00 - 63:30 Banquets for politicians where the politicians of course get to sit at the front table they get the fanciest food um and everybody else gets to pay quite a lot of money to uh to you know to hear the politician or or the elite person give a speech about politics or about just if the person is a CEO of a company um so it's a it's a meal but it's a meal where it's really functions to to U
• 63:30 - 64:00 instantiate and to reiterate existing political and financial and social kinds of relationships uh a second kind of com commonality is what gong calls segregative commonality where the function of the meal is to identify an us over against them uh and uh uh he he uh he doesn't talk so much about associations but a number of us whove worked on associations uh have argued
• 64:00 - 64:30 that that's exactly what Association meals are about it's not so much about asserting hierarchy although there were hierarchical Arrangements in the meal but the real point is that the leather workers of this town Thessaloniki get together they eat together and it's a way for them to to send the message to themselves and to everybody else that we belong together that this is our meal uh
• 64:30 - 65:00 and this meal constitutes us as a group or reinforces us as a group and distinguishes us from any number of other Outsiders uh so it segregative in the sense that it segregates a particular group of persons from the more general population um and uh the uh and it's a way of asserting belonging uh I belong to this group because I recline with them and I eat with them um as I say it
• 65:00 - 65:30 doesn't completely obviate the notion that there may be leaders and there may be some kind of hierarchical arrangements within the group but the real message of the group is that we are all one we belong together it's our group we eat together we do things together uh this constitutes us as a as a as a group um and uh that kind of language shows up in early Christian uh talk
• 65:30 - 66:00 about their Eucharist that um that when they eat together they are with Christ or they're eating with Christ wherever two or three are gathered in my name there I am in the midst U this is all ways of of enforcing the the ingroup identity over against various kinds of outgroup identities that's segregative commensality and the Third Kind is is an interesting one uh gong calls this transgressive U
• 66:00 - 66:30 commonality this is my favorite one yeah this was when a person of superior rank decides to eat with the smaller group now um or the example that Gan uses it's when the CEO of a big Corporation goes down to the lunchroom where everybody else is eating and eats with them well um so in a way the CEO is now pretending to be one of the one of
• 66:30 - 67:00 the boys or one of the workers and sits at one of their tables um no one is fooled by this I mean it's not that this is a disingenuous act but it's a very in it's a very peculiar act in the sense that it's the person who belongs you know hundreds of miles above everybody else coming down and eating with them temporarily so it creates this what's transgressive about it is that it is that it momentarily
• 67:00 - 67:30 pretends that status differences don't exist he sits or she sits at the table with with six other ordinary workers and has the same kind of C cafeteria food of course that's going to end and he's going to go back to his office and they're going to go back so it's it's uh it's a way of temporarily um uh dissolving hierarchy only to reconstitute it again um so there were
• 67:30 - 68:00 certainly those kinds of those kinds of meals too occasionally the emperor would uh would put on a public banquet you know no one no one ever thought of the Emperor as something other than he was but he could pretend for a few minutes or an hour uh to be one of the boys or one of the the ordinary citizens um so it's uh uh you know and you can find other examples of that kind of temporary dissolution of hierarchies but
• 68:00 - 68:30 ultimately it they serve actually to reinforce hierarchies because everybody knows that the CEO is going to go back uh to his plush office or her plush office and uh you know it's not as if that you can then phone up the CEO and say you know shall we go out for a beer after work today you know that's not going to happen um uh so uh as I say you know this is this is another uh kind of
• 68:30 - 69:00 grammar that occurs in certain kinds of meals and that's uh that's what Gan identifies in medieval meals and as I say uh Richard asof and I and several other uh others John Donahue and others have thought you know this is actually a useful way to think about Association meals most of them are these segregative meals but occasionally we have an elite person who decides they're going to come and visit the group and uh and eat with
• 69:00 - 69:30 them uh uh now you know no one misses the fact that this is a senator who's you know way in is in the stratosphere in comparison with me uh as a lowly worker um but it you know that kind of that kind of commonality does have its place in society in reinforcing hierarchies interesting yeah thank you for that answer that was a very uh just I think what I would add was what we
• 69:30 - 70:00 need to realize as the audience is that these meals are taking place always in a semi-public or public uh kind of environment the Mila is always uh you're always it's it's just as uh just as polemical as anything you find in the Gospel of John right when Jesus says I am or or you are the children of light you know this your actions in these in these banquet settings are just as important as any kind of written
• 70:00 - 70:30 pmic just in terms of displaying your status or lack thereof um so yeah Dr many many of these dining rooms are perfectly visible from the from the road outside u i mean we know this from archaeological excavations that um you know the uh Phil has talked about the uh Philip Harland has talked about the the uh banqueting Hall of the of the dancing um cow herds at pergamon and it's only a
• 70:30 - 71:00 couple of steps from the main street so uh when the association meets together anybody walking on that street knows exactly who's there and what they're doing they're singing or doing whatever they're doing the the dining halls in these cemeteries at the a Sola sakra are just a few meters from the main road that goes towards Rome so anybody walking in that road can see these people dining and they can they understand they would understand the social dynamics that are so so you're
• 71:00 - 71:30 absolutely right that dining occurs in a kind of semi-public uh Arena and so the meal actually is a way of of making a statement to bystanders to those who are seeing this about about what's happening in this meal This Is Us leather workers all dining together or this is other leather workers and our and our three senatorial um Grandes who are eating with us and they would read that you know those
• 71:30 - 72:00 those two different kinds of meals a little bit differently and you also knew about Elites inviting people to to dinners where they're basically showing off their own social status so uh I think ancient people would would know how to read these meals um uh because they see them all the time they these are semi-public yeah there was a great um point that asof made that the meal wasn't just the meal itself if you're
• 72:00 - 72:30 invited to a meal it especially like somebody who's in a higher status like say you're Patron for the group or whatever it's not just like hey come to my meal it's like they'll send their slave to you know tell you hey you want to come do a meal and they'll send their their slave later to you know uh really uh remind you it's like this huge uh public display like so everybody's like everybody knows what's happening everybody's like okay I I know where I know where um onius or whatever is going
• 72:30 - 73:00 you know this so it's yeah it's very just uh mindblowing just how all the Dynamics that are going on here um Dr kloppenberg I know that we're kind of pasted our time did you have time for one more question or did you want to cut it short sure okay this is kind of a two-part question um and it kind of ties into what we were talking about earlier about fictive kinship and patronage um sometimes the patron isn't always like a person right the patron could be
• 73:00 - 73:30 you were mentioning like uh for instance I think you were talking about this The Cult of CPUs so uh in in Corinthians Paul's talking about like Jesus is kind of like you know the head of the table so in the cult of carapus right you mentioned in your book that um I can't remember Hans Joseph CL I think it was his name he um he says quote in this meal uh described by Alias aristes the God was regarded as both their Chief
• 73:30 - 74:00 guest and host and so he offers the Libations and receives the Libations joining in the reveling and inviting the revelers himself so I didn't know if you could just talk about this a little bit and um what exactly is going on because I think it's really helpful uh when we're like reading Paul especially in First Corinthians about all this Christ as you know the adopt of a brother that we're all being grafted onto so you know it goes
• 74:00 - 74:30 into what you were saying earlier about the the very much like uh we're not they're not individualistic we're all part of a whole so I don't know if you could just talk more about the God is patreon and gu that statement of elas areses is really interesting because as you say uh elas aristes says that s sarus is both the host and the chief uh reveler um uh that is
• 74:30 - 75:00 uh he's imagined he he's he's imagined to be not only the one who invites you to the banquet but he's the one who participates in the banquet along with you um and uh one of the one of the interesting things that we know about the cult of carapus from Egypt is that um in some cases uh when one was invited to the banquet to the cleen the literally the table or the couch of carapus sometimes it it was a human
• 75:00 - 75:30 person who issued this um uh this invitation but in other cases it's called it's the God who does it that that is the in the the uh the in the invite that and we've got these Papyrus invitations saying the god invites you to his his CLE his his table tomorrow at such and such an hour so the notion um now this ought to resonate with uh with Christians who think about um say
• 75:30 - 76:00 Matthew's gospel of Matthew 18 where he says wherever two or three are gathered in my name there I am in the midst um that is even after Jesus is is is executed and uh and somewhere else he's still imagined to be present with the group uh when they invoke him uh uh or uh you know Paul's notion in 1 Corinthians 11 that uh the uh the
• 76:00 - 76:30 Eucharist the Eucharist which they which they um uh which they share in it that Christ is somehow or other present there um and uh present in such a way that if you misbehave in this group you actually might suffer some damage um uh the uh we've got a wonderful private letter from Egypt from this from the mid part
• 76:30 - 77:00 of the uh early part of the 3rd Century I think where a a particular uh fellow whose name is tus writes to his dad and says that he has been invited uh to join a group of sarap piasta worshippers of sarapas and uh uh and he punctuates the letter uh with the statement for it's not imposs for it's not possible for a man to refuse Lord sarus in other words
• 77:00 - 77:30 if sarus invites you you better go um uh so sarus wants tus to be to be a member of the group and to serve in the function of a kind of group organizer and SAR and tus is not in a position to to decline this invitation now of course you know realistically sarus is a deity who you know Is Not a Human Being but the the group imagines that when they meet together
• 77:30 - 78:00 for meals sarus is there probably because the cult statue of sarapas is there uh but this is not just a statue the the the deity is is there in the meal with them and as elas aristes says he's not only uh the host the one who invites you but he's the one that that enjoys the fun of the meal as well um in some kind of mystical or strange way he's uh uh he's there that's a that as I say that's a notion that is
• 78:00 - 78:30 uh not counterintuitive when it comes to Christians thinking about their relationship uh to the Risen Christ in the meal the think they think in the same kinds of terms um so that's a place where reading about ancient associations allows you to see some very interesting similarities between the way in which Christ groups talked about them M El and the way in which some of these other groups talked about themselves and their relationship uh with uh with the
• 78:30 - 79:00 Divine absolutely thank you for that um yeah it's really important to understand not only for that sense just how you know how widespread this was but also um put yourself in the position again going back to the Thessalonians and uh in Thessaloniki uh you know they're confronted by Paul they they've been worshiping probably some other DD
• 79:00 - 79:30 for quite a a long time right then they have this Christ hero they have this Christ hero who they're going to be now focusing on and you know what happens to these people over here and and uh yeah it's just very uh very multifaceted um just what's going on and and you know um I think where I'm trying to go here is uh just that that Dynamic like especially with a de a deity or a hero as a patron um you really have also them
• 79:30 - 80:00 engaging in these really strange practices and I think I'll make this my final question because it's always something I've always found very uh strange and uh uh wonderful at the same time um just uh so in your book you on page 55 talk about the con consequences I guess what you're talking about if If you deny the de or whatever or you're you're misbehaving at the banquet what happens
• 80:00 - 80:30 in 1 Corinthians 5 verse5 where Paul is invoking this curse right they're engaging in these curse practices you know althon Tess Saros you know and Paul is also present in the power of the Lord you know it's like uh the Puma soon to Dame to kuo uh it's very um interesting like they're they're literally like we could just look at as pmic but no as you point out in your
• 80:30 - 81:00 book so the he's really talk he's really meaning this and these people are really believing that you know they're going to hand this person over to Satan so um what is happening here what what are some intersections and maybe examples other examples you can think of from the uh evidence that we have of this type of thing going on yeah that's a that's a really interesting uh interesting Passage and uh turns out there's some interesting analogies as well so as as you've said the scenario is that Paul is
• 81:00 - 81:30 in Paul is in Ephesus when he writes uh one Corinthians uh to the people in Corinth and he's heard that there's some kind of gross immorality happening uh a man uh sleeping with uh with his mother-in-law or something like that anyhow so this is marked as in mean he treats this as a matter of incest and uh Greeks and Romans you know took a real dim view of incest in so uh and he but
• 81:30 - 82:00 what's important uh to to see is that Paul uh treats this not just as a problem of an individual he treats it as a problem uh that can that can potentially contaminate or infect the entire group and it's in that context that he uh there's the text right there clean out the old yeast that you may be uh a new bunch of uh uh of dough uh that
• 82:00 - 82:30 is he uses the image of yeast U and the way it acts on a large chunk of flour that is it Levens the whole bunch now he's using that analogy in a negative sense that a little bit of immorality will actually contaminate the entire group so for him this is a real danger uh because the group can be destroyed by the presence of one person uh and again think of this is in you know in this
• 82:30 - 83:00 kind of collectivist culture terms that the actions of one person can actually contaminate the whole group so his remedy is this is really quite an interesting one he's in Ephesus he's not in Corinth at the time but he says when you gather together um uh you are going to hand over this person uh his flesh to destruct to Satan for the destruction of his flesh so that
• 83:00 - 83:30 the spirit will be preserved he's not talking about his Spirit he's talking about the spirit the spirit the Puma is a characteristic of the group itself and so he sees this immorality as a potential um threat to the Puma the spirit of the group we have a a similar kind of view uh at Kuman where they also likewise believed that
• 83:30 - 84:00 the group as a group was in possession of uh the holy spirit that Angels were present with them and that Angels got offended by in inappropriate human actions and so the important thing including defecation um uh uh so kumam the kumam covor is had to be very careful about their their own actions because uh a wrong action might actually damage the
• 84:00 - 84:30 ethos or the spirit of the entire group um and so Paul you know comes up with this rather interesting solution that even though he's not present he says that he will be with them in spirit and they are to hand over and the term that he uses is paradom hand over this offender to Satan for the destruction of his flesh so that the spirit might be preserved um he's using a formula
• 84:30 - 85:00 peritomy is one of the formula that shows up in Greek magical Papi that is where a person will uh in creating a spell will hand over the object of that curse to a demon or something for punishment uh in order that uh that some kind of impediment gets removed typically in love marriage in love magic um a young man who is interested in a
• 85:00 - 85:30 particular woman but that partic but somebody else is is interested in that woman um the you know the the the first man will go down the street to somebody who casts spells uh who writes curse tablets and ask that you write a a curse that hands over this guy um to the konic spirit Spirits for punishment so that he now becomes ugly in her eyes or his voice fails or any number of other
• 85:30 - 86:00 things uh can happen to them so that he's no longer attractive to this woman so that the you know that the principal now can be attractive to her and it uses and these these typically use this term paradom to hand over somebody to um to Satan or to the cathic deities the cathic spirits the spirits who live in the ground uh for some kind of action so Paul is suggesting that that kind of uh
• 86:00 - 86:30 curse magic happens and he uh says that when they get together somehow or other he imagines that he will be present with them uh when this happens so it's a really it's a it's an interesting idea um I should say that the the notion that um uh that individuals in the group are expected to comply with the rules of the group The moral rules of the group and
• 86:30 - 87:00 if they don't they can get punished they can get sick or they can die or something like that this is not unusual uh we have a wonderful inscription from the first century BCE uh uh from Philadelphia in Asia Minor where this group has inscribed a a set of its rules on a stone in uh in the sanctuary and when people come into the sanctuary they have to touch the stone
• 87:00 - 87:30 and the idea is that if you touch the stone and you've actually violated some of the rules that are listed in that stone you are in trouble uh the deity is going to make life hard on you to say the least might even kill you um so it becomes touching the stone becomes a kind of diagnostic way to indicate that I have complied with the rules that are written on on this Stone um because the the the the
• 87:30 - 88:00 kind of logic of these groups is because the deity watches over these groups and the deity knows when violations of the rules have happened and the deity is interested in making sure that things go in in the right way not in the wrong way and so offenders can be can be punished if they have violated the rules hence you know Paul in one in 1 Corinthians 11 says some of you are eating of the Lord's Supper unworthily therefore you
• 88:00 - 88:30 are sick and some of you have died it's the same logic that is if you violate the rules of the group uh and you participate in their ritual the ritual actually ceases to be health health giving uh or uh something that actually makes you better um communicates G God's gifts to you but it actually starts to damage you if you if you do things the wrong way um you know
• 88:30 - 89:00 we tend not to think about that um I mean I'm pretty sure that most people who go to communion in uh in modern North American troops don't imagine that by eating the wafer or drinking having a sip of the wine that that they're likely to die if they have um or get sick if they've committed some sin they probably don't think in those terms but this is a this is not uh an unusual way of thinking for someone in the ancient world because if you imagine that the
• 89:00 - 89:30 God is there watching over things the God has a proprietary interest in making sure that things go in accordance with the rules that the God has given and if you violate the rules you are in trouble yeah absolutely it it um reminds me of um we were talking off air about how I'm uncomfortable you're uncomfortable with this term as well religion and how I like to use ritual cult and lore because just what we're talking about you know you have a ritual
• 89:30 - 90:00 you have it's like a technology you have to follow right and then you have the cult you know the deity and then you have the lore the the because I don't I'm not comfortable with myth so instead of myth I use lore because that's like the myth implies something false versus like lore is like just the story and the fabric behind it but um yeah it's really interesting it reminded me uh just really quickly about um the origins uh of uh drama right when they would do these um plays they would
• 90:00 - 90:30 literally in the early days bring the the DAT the statue of the daty out he was there present you're they're doing this to honor the deity but he's also literally there he's literally a spectator watching over so yeah it's just I love I love this um there's so much more we could explore but I know we're running short on time Dr kloppenberg this has been um honestly one of the interviews I've been looking forward to the most and I appreciate you
• 90:30 - 91:00 taking the time to talk to me um I want to let you use this time to plug um any books or any resources you want the audience to know about oh thank you that's well it's the most most of what we've been talking about has been uh about this uh book that I did with Yale University press in 2019 Christ's Association so it's uh this was a book that I've worked on well it's really the fruit of about 20 years of work on associations and at a certain
• 91:00 - 91:30 point I realized that I had a book there and so worked on that for several years and uh very happy uh with the with the result Yale did just an absolutely beautiful um work at producing the book A a handsome book and uh cover picture is one that I took in Rome uh from the uh hypog of the aeli it's uh I don't know that they were an association but they look like an association I thought
• 91:30 - 92:00 so that's why I used that picture anyhow that's uh you've you've you plugged it for me right there with the the connection the Amazon image awesome and before we go I also want to reiterate that um Ken harland's uh or Philip harand sorry I don't know why I said Ken Harland but Philip har uh website associations in the GRE Roman world if you're interested in learning more about this um I will I believe the
• 92:00 - 92:30 link is in the description right now but if it's not I'll add it after the stream so yeah just anything you want to literally know and there's also a very comprehensive bibliography here as well which is very important if you want to dig deeper into this stuff um came very much in handy for me um so Dr kloppenberg like I said I want to again thank you for all your work and all your contributions um I hope to have you on again sometime if I didn't totally flub
• 92:30 - 93:00 this interview uh and uh yeah so um just like I said thank you very much sincerely I appreciate it thank you very much Jason awesome and thank every one of you for watching um whether there's two of you watching or whether there's the 650 or 660 um subscribers that I've gotten over the past four months that this channel has been around um I really sincerely appreciate each and every one of you um
• 93:00 - 93:30 watching the videos even if you leave a thumbs down I know a lot of you are not fans of my shorts but they work so uh but thank you so much um for tuning in we will see you next Friday uh for the season finale with Daniel Ogden uh we'll be talking about all the wonderful uh ghosts and Witchcraft and uh Magic that went on in the in Antiquity and uh I'm sure werewolves and Dragons will show up in this conversation as well somewhere
• 93:30 - 94:00 so uh until next time thank you all and uh have a wonderful evening enjoy your weekend bye thank you