Michael Knowles DEBATES Viral Pro-Choice Activist | Bronte Remsik

Summary

In a captivating debate, Michael Knowles engages with Bronte Remsik, a pro-choice activist and third-year medical student, on the controversial topic of abortion. The debate takes us through a maze of ethical, medical, and philosophical viewpoints, with Knowles defending the pro-life stance and Remsik advocating for abortion access as a necessary part of healthcare. The discussion touches on various contentious issues, including the role of consent, the definition of life, and the rights of individuals over their bodies, providing an insightful glimpse into the complex nature of the abortion debate.

Highlights

• Michael argues strongly against abortion, citing it as akin to murder. 😲
• Bronte defends her stance with medical and ethical perspectives, advocating for abortion as essential healthcare. ⚕️
• The debate heats up when discussing the use of certain terminologies, such as 'fetus' versus 'baby.' 🔥
• Michael challenges Bronte with philosophical analogies to dissect the abortion argument. 🔍
• Bronte stands firm on her beliefs grounded in medical knowledge and patient rights. 💡

Key Takeaways

• Michael emphasizes that he centers the debate on the fetus, arguing for its right to life in all circumstances. 🍼
• Bronte highlights the importance of bodily autonomy and believes the decision to have an abortion should be between a patient and their medical provider. 💪
• The two delve into the ethics of medicine, with Remsik arguing for evidence-based practice guiding medical opinions. 🩺
• Knowles challenges the idea of abortion by comparing it to moral and ethical debates, historically inaccurate practices like lobotomies. 🤔
• Remsik defends medical expertise and consensus as vital but acknowledges the unique nature of pregnancy and motherhood. 🧠

Overview

In this thought-provoking debate, Michael Knowles sparred with Bronte Remsik on the highly polarized issue of abortion. Knowles, advocating for pro-life, rooted his arguments in the moral belief that life begins at conception and should be protected under all circumstances. He passionately argued against abortion, likening it to murder and challenging the ethical grounds on which pro-choice arguments are made.

Bronte, on the other hand, focused on bodily autonomy and the right of individuals to make decisions regarding their own health care, especially in matters as personal as pregnancy. She passionately argued that medical expertise supports the necessity of abortion access, framing it as an essential component of comprehensive healthcare. Her points were heavily backed by medical authority, emphasizing that personal beliefs shouldn’t dictate healthcare access.

Throughout the debate, both parties clashed on moral, ethical, and philosophical grounds. Terminology became a focal point, with disputes over words like 'fetus' and 'baby' illustrating the deep divide in perspectives. While Knowles pushed for the preservation of unborn life, Remsik held firm on advocating for the rights of women to choose, informed by medical consent and understanding.

Chapters

• 00:30 - 01:00: Introducing Bronte Remsik The chapter "Introducing Bronte Remsik" discusses a sensitive and controversial topic involving imagery related to medical procedures, with a specific example of a fetus outside the womb. It highlights the emotional and propagandist aspects associated with presenting such imagery, aiming to provide a medically accurate perspective on the subject, contrasting against emotionally charged narratives or propaganda.
• 01:00 - 02:30: Bronte's Perspective on Abortion This chapter recounts the experiences of the speaker, presumably Bronte, who reflects on the difficulty encountered in engaging liberals in discussions about abortion on their show. Despite many rejections, there was a notable exception where a successful debate took place with a liberal social media influencer. The influencer performed impressively during the debate, which was well-received by the audience, leading to an invitation for her to return to the show.
• 02:30 - 05:00: Michael's Perspective and Counterarguments Bronte Remic visits the Daily WI Studios in Tennessee and is welcomed warmly. She aims to introduce the viewers to a new perspective, with the hope of possibly changing some minds.
• 05:00 - 06:30: Consent and Personal Freedom Debate The chapter titled 'Consent and Personal Freedom Debate' appears to focus on a discussion surrounding personal freedom, specifically related to abortion. The conversation seems to involve social media and online presence as platforms for expressing ideas and promoting merchandise. The speaker positions themselves as curious and kind, traits that they seem to incorporate into their advocacy work. They are openly pro-abortion and are willing to engage in discussions to explain and support their stance on the issue, even traveling to places like Tennessee to speak about it.
• 06:30 - 09:30: Ethics and the Medical Community The chapter discusses the role of personal beliefs in the context of medical ethics, particularly concerning abortion. It emphasizes the importance of distinguishing between personal opinions and the rights of others to make their own choices about their bodies. The central argument is not about persuading others to change their beliefs but to highlight the ethical stance that opinions should only govern one's own body and life, and not those of others.
• 09:30 - 10:00: Financial and Physical Aspects of Abortion The chapter discusses the importance of abortion access as a part of evidence-based healthcare. It presents the views of leading medical experts who assert that protecting life does not involve restricting healthcare access. The chapter raises questions about the interpretation and implications of these medical guidelines.
• 10:00 - 12:00: Discussion on Human Rights and Bodily Autonomy The chapter titled 'Discussion on Human Rights and Bodily Autonomy' debates the topic of abortion in the context of historical medical practices that were once widely accepted but are now seen as unethical. A key example used to illustrate this is lobotomy, a procedure that was endorsed in the past to manage women's behavior, but is now considered inhumane and ghastly. The discussion highlights the need to critically examine contemporary medical consensus and practices, reflecting on the shifts in ethical standards over time.
• 12:00 - 15:00: Historical Context and Expert Opinions The chapter explores the historical context and expert opinions on bioethics, particularly focusing on informed consent in medical practices. It highlights past medical practices where patients' rights were violated due to lack of proper consent. The discussion shifts to abortion, emphasizing the difference between being pro-abortion and pro-abortion access, stressing the importance of informed consent in modern medical ethics.
• 15:00 - 18:30: Feminism and Pornography Discussion The chapter discusses the importance of keeping abortion access and discussions exclusively between the patient and the medical provider. It emphasizes the significance of consent from the pregnant person to continue with their pregnancy, as only they understand their body's needs, financial situation, and life's complexities. The chapter argues that the pregnant person is the only one capable of deciding and comprehending what is best for their situation.
• 18:30 - 21:00: Transgender Rights and Gender Affirmation This chapter discusses the importance of transgender rights and gender affirmation within the context of modern medical practices. It emphasizes that leading medical authorities consider access to abortion as a critical component of comprehensive, evidence-based healthcare. The chapter reinforces that personal opinions should not outweigh the expertise and guidance of trained healthcare professionals in matters of medical care and consent.
• 21:00 - 23:30: Closing Arguments and Final Thoughts This chapter contains closing arguments and final thoughts, focusing on the debate around abortion. It opens with a rebuttal that considers the perspectives of the unborn baby, alongside the mother and another person involved. The speaker challenges the notion that people are only entitled to opinions regarding their own bodies and questions whether it's justifiable to form opinions about others' bodily decisions. It sets the stage for a deeper examination of personal rights, societal beliefs, and moral considerations regarding bodily autonomy.

Michael Knowles DEBATES Viral Pro-Choice Activist | Bronte Remsik Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 if you want to look at that and you would like to look at that this isn't an ultrasound no this is a 9we fetus in a pet tree dish in a pet tree dish it's just really Gastly to show a picture of a person who's been killed people such as yourself like to share propaganda about this issue and I am here to try to present a medically accurate representation of what a Mur victim of what this issue is [Music]
• 00:30 - 01:00 one of the great Sorrows of my life is that liberals never want to talk to me me little old me whom everybody loves so very few want to talk to me I invite liberals on this show they say no with some exceptions one of the most successful uh popular videos that we've put out was a debate that I had with a popular social media influencer on the left on the topic of abortion who did have the guts to come on the show and not only that she did so well uh that we decided we had to invite her out here
• 01:00 - 01:30 that person would be Bronte remic Bronte thank you for coming out all the way to Tennessee uh and welcome to the Daily wi Studios thank you good to be here I hope that I can kind of introduce your viewers to A New Perspective that's I I you know I Su I suspect they have been introduced but perhaps you will change some people's minds for the occasion I'm having a very pink Drink of some sort this is my uh most feminist quality U you are Bronte a third-year medical student you people can find you on Tik
• 01:30 - 02:00 Tok and throughout social media and you have a website as well where you've got all of your ideas and merchandise yes yes that would be be kind and curious yes beind and curious.com okay I consider myself kind I am extremely curious you have uh done us the great honor of coming out here and gone through all the hassle that it takes to get to Tennessee so you you are staunchly in favor of abortion I am your captive audience if you had to give me
• 02:00 - 02:30 the elevator pitch what would it be absolutely so what I would really like to start this conversation off with and make very clear from the start for both you and your viewers is I am not saying that you are wrong for being uncomfortable with abortion I'm not saying that you are wrong for not agreeing with it but your opinion applies to your body and your life alone we are not sitting here having a discussion about our personal disagreements I am here to Ed educate
• 02:30 - 03:00 you and your viewers on the guidelines of proper Medical Practice that have been established by our country's leading medical experts and they have stated publicly and unequivocally that abortion access is essential to comprehensive evidence-based healthare and we both want to protect life and what remains true is protecting innocent life never involves restricting access to health care so two questions I have from that you mentioned that all of the genius medical
• 03:00 - 03:30 people agree in our country that we need to have abortion now surely all of the genius medical people have agreed on all sorts of practices throughout history even in the not so distant past uh that are all that that are quite terrible for people one good example would be labotomy there was a scientific consensus in the country that when women are behaving a little eccentric uh we should go in and scramble up their brains and they uh used these kinds of procedures throughout the 20th century now we look at that as ghastly and and uh
• 03:30 - 04:00 a violation of basic rights but this was a medical consensus so surely you're not telling me that just because a bunch of fancy people in lab coats think something about a matter of bioethics that therefore it's the gospel truth well a big part of the prior you know travesties of medicine is there was not consent from patients and there wasn't proper informed consent from patients where when it comes to abortion you continuously say that I am pro-abortion when really I am pro-abortion access and
• 04:00 - 04:30 abortion access and the discussion of having an abortion should be between the patient and the medical provider and that is it and the entire concept and the entire point is that the pregnant person gets to consent to continue with their pregnancy and must consent to the use of their body because they are the one that understands their body and their life and their finances and everything that makes up the complexities of human life they are the only ones who are able to decide and understand what is best for them with
• 04:30 - 05:00 the guidance of you know proper modern medical practices and it is true that our world and our country's leading medical Minds have like I said unequivocally stated that abortion access is essential to comprehensive evidence-based Healthcare and your opinion can remain your opinion but it does not get to override the opinion of people who train their entire lives to provide Healthcare to people well so on the matter of consent obviously the
• 05:00 - 05:30 clear rebuttal to that would be that abortion involves not two people but three people one of whom is the unborn baby now I imagine you would have issues with that description so we can get to that in a moment the first thing you said though is that I'm entitled to my opinion but I'm only entitled to my opinion as it pertains to my own body and I'm not entitled to to an opinion about what you do with your own body but do you really believe that do you really believe that people can only have opinions about things that pertain to their physical s i I can't have an
• 05:30 - 06:00 opinion about uh I don't know a sunset or uh I don't know how automobiles are made or I don't know drug use or anything like I can't have an opinion about politics how our government should be run or how our political Community ought to behave I can only have opinions about myself no I think you misunderstand me you can have your opinion about anything and anyone that you'd like but that opinion cannot restrict someone's access to healthcare you can agree disagree with someone's
• 06:00 - 06:30 choice to get an abortion but just because you disagree with it doesn't mean that your opinion should override the opinion of their medical experts can uh can my opinion uh be put into effect to restrict someone's access to drugs like heroin well in what way well we have self-government in the United States at least nominally and so if I think that heroin is really bad and I think we ought to have laws against its use then I can Lobby my representatives and they
• 06:30 - 07:00 can pass a law as they have against heroin and then you are not allowed to use heroin even though that affects only your own body I have now expressed my opinion about heroin in such a way that it restricts what you can do with your own body are you saying that that is not acceptable so actually with laws regarding drugs it is illegal to buy and sell drugs but it's not actually illegal to do drugs because you can't tell me depends on the jurisdiction true but it you cannot tell me what I can or cannot
• 07:00 - 07:30 do with my body again you can totally and rightfully so disagree with someone's choice to do drugs but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't as healthc care providers ensure that that say drug user is able to make informed choices about their body are you familiar with like clean needle programs I am yeah correct and so clean needle programs they reduce disease transmission and so even though someone is going to choose to do drugs it is the
• 07:30 - 08:00 responsibility of medical experts and Healthcare Providers to ensure that we cannot you know we cannot change someone's choices and behavioral patterns but we can ensure that we provide them resources and able to ensure that their decisions and the impact of their decisions is minimized in whatever way that we can Bronte I think putting aside for a moment the efficacy of uh clean needle programs which I think is dubious but that might be a discussion for another day I think you're evading the question a little bit here because you're suggesting that uh
• 08:00 - 08:30 drug use is not criminal uh in all cases which is not the case there are places where drug use is quite where the use of the drugs itself is Criminal but even so let's let's take that let's accept your premise nevertheless uh purchasing the drugs would be illegal now this is something you do with your own body with your own money this is uh it's the very same issue just removed One Step so is it is it all right for me to express my opinion about illicit drug use to
• 08:30 - 09:00 restrict you from doing something that you want to do be that shooting the heroin purchasing the heroin putting the heroin in a syringe what whatever you want to say clearly I am restricting your bodily autonomy here and that has been done throughout civilization that remains on the books in the United States so are you saying that drug laws are basically U some sort of travesty no of course not because it's a matter of public health now when we talk about pregnancy and abortion essentially what caus CES pregnancy is sex correct and we
• 09:00 - 09:30 cannot Outlaw sex unless that's something that you are trying to bring forth and so when it comes to you know laws limiting someone's ability to have bodily autonomy or you know limit someone's ability to behave in a certain way this is sex and pregnancy and abortion is a very unique circumstance and sure we can talk all day about some convoluted you know drug analogy but at the end of the day that's your opinion but we cannot Outlaw sex and sex happens for a
• 09:30 - 10:00 numerous reasons and pregnancy can be accidental and unwanted and so trying to compare it to illegalizing drug use it's not completely analogous to illegalizing and banning abortion because sex and drug use are two very different things and they happen for two very different reasons right I suppose I'm just discussing the principle that you described earlier which is that I I don't have have the right to an opinion that uh affects what you do with your own body but even leaving that aside you say that we can't uh make sex illegal I
• 10:00 - 10:30 don't think anybody wants to make sex illegal but historically all sorts of sex has been illegal and all sorts of sex remains illegal today there are certain sexual behaviors Even in our more decadent and inclusive age that are illegal obviously sex with children or sex with animals things like that uh historically sex uh outside of marriage has been illegal in many places homosexual sexual activities have been illegal in many places so we've had laws in the United States and continue to have law laws that regulate sex uh all
• 10:30 - 11:00 of that though I wonder so historically you know those are the facts and doesn't that seem to be a little bit beside the point when it comes to abortion because now we're saying no you know consenting adults above the age of 18 they can have all the sex they want but if you do have sex and you do get pregnant well you don't have the right to kill the baby well when you talk about things like you know having sex with children or animals being illegal that's because they can't properly consent to have sex
• 11:00 - 11:30 where when we're talking about consent or sex with con you know consensual sex between adults that happens for multiple reasons people have sex for social reasons um social connection psychological reasons not just for the reason of procreation and so sure pregnancy can happen accidentally and unwanted but consent must be enthusiastic and ongoing and so when we talk you know what if it's only timid tepid consent you know sort of oh well I'll do it but you know not that's a
• 11:30 - 12:00 really big problem in our society right now and you know that's something that people will take you know the small you people will push people to say yes and that's what that's why we say sex should be enthusiastic and ongoing because if you are trying to have sex with someone who's not enthusiastic about it then maybe you should second guess your choices but isn't that a bit I'm I agree with you entirely but isn't that a bit sex negative of you to say that that there is a certain way that one should engage in consensual sex I mean no you don't think so no because enthusiasm is
• 12:00 - 12:30 expressed you know differently between people it doesn't mean that you have to be jumping up and down I just mean that the person who's consenting is consenting you know very clearly and enthusiastically in their own way and not being pressured into saying yes not being timid about saying yes you know you are ensuring that they are saying yes you know out of their own validity and when we talk I want to compare like sex with pregnancy right cuz we're talking about consent so you understand that sex can be a fun and beautiful thing with you know people do for lots
• 12:30 - 13:00 of different reasons but it's only fun and beautiful when it's consensual and when sex is not consensual it can be traumatic and devastating for people the same thing for pregnancy when pregnancy is consensual and pregnancy is wanted it can be a beautiful thing but when pregnancy is unwanted and non-consensual then it can be a very traumatic and devastating thing well you know I suspect it can be both in either case I mean I think not only of the experience
• 13:00 - 13:30 of my wife but uh of many of my friends who have had kids and and they want kids and they intentionally get pregnant or at least they are happy when they find out that they accidentally become pregnant but there's still a lot of trauma involved in that I mean there there's a lot of suffering that comes along with that that's part of pregnancy and child birth and life generally you know life involves some degree of suffering so it just seems what you're saying is when when the pregnancy is desired that
• 13:30 - 14:00 is beautiful and we should celebrate it and when the pregnancy is not desired then you ought to be able to end it and meaning end the little baby and it reminds me of what the you see this with the royal family the royal family you know the princess gets pregnant they say we have the royal baby the baby's only 10 weeks in gestation but they say this is the royal baby but then uh some left-wing woman goes on television and says you know I just had an abortion well that's never a baby that's just a clump of cells but we're talking about the exact same thing right we're talking
• 14:00 - 14:30 about a a child at who knows 15 weeks gestation 20 weeks gestation what's that so yes I I understand that the experience of sex and pregnancy can be felt differently in different circumstances but the baby himself would be the same in both circumstances it's just in one we celebrate his beautiful baby life and in the other we kill him as a clump of cells so when it comes to medical terminology it's actually a an embryo or a fetus and when you call it a clump of cells I agree that that can
• 14:30 - 15:00 feel dehumanizing but on the same side when you call it a baby that's also anthropomorphizing so I think that right and so that's neither side is correct in its entirety and that doesn't remove what well I guess the you're you're entirely right that the L I mean you mentioned the word fetus which which ironically is dehumanizing although the word fetus you know the Latin word fetus just means Offspring and we're referring human beings here but doesn't the
• 15:00 - 15:30 question hinge on which language should we use so one is dehumanizing one is anthropomorphizing in other words humanizing so then isn't the question that we have to answer is this thing that we're talking about a human or not and if it is a human then we should only use the anthropomorphizing language and if it is not a human then we should only call him a clump of cells well when it comes to medicine and Medical Practice it is you are you call it a fetus and the reason but I don't call it a fetus but you're also not a medical
• 15:30 - 16:00 professional are you but I'm I'm a human being with rational faculty who describes the world around him right true but you aren't having discussions with pregnant people and when often yeah as a medical professional so there are articles written for medical professionals how about how to have these conversations and it is appropriate to call it a fetus and when the pregnancy is wanted it is also appropriate to call it a baby when that pregnancy is wanted and desired and you are trying to create a comforting and accepting environment for that pregnant
• 16:00 - 16:30 person but from a medical standpoint it is completely appropriate to call it a fetus until you understand where your patient is at in their mentality regarding their pregnancy is that is that guidance that doctors get if the if the mother wants to be pregnant then you you can call it a baby but if the mother doesn't want to be pregnant you don't call it a baby it depends that's amazing that that's the medical guidance yeah well it's all about creating a comfortable an appropriate environment
• 16:30 - 17:00 for the patient because we care about the mentality of the patient and you want the patient to be able to make an informed choice you want the patient to feel comfortable in your exam room and if calling it a fetus when it is a wanted pregnancy can make them feel detached from that pregnancy but also calling it a baby when it is an unwanted pregnancy can put you know unnecessary pressure and fear onto that pregn person you don't believe that whether or not the baby is human hinges on on whether or not the mother desires the baby or
• 17:00 - 17:30 fetus is question you don't you don't think that the desire is the determining factor for the onology of the embryo the embryo is human that's that's not within question it is a human embryo it is so then why wouldn't you use anthropomorphizing language why wouldn't you refer to it in human language because language is often emotional and pregnancy is an emotional state for someone to be in and as a medical professional you have to be conscious of the way that your words affect the patient and so you would lie
• 17:30 - 18:00 to the patient because you well you said it is lying because you said the baby or fetus or whatever you want to say is a human and you said the word baby is humanizing language so you're describing the human being with humanizing language unless you say that the emotions of the of the pregnant mother are such that uh you don't want to describe the human being in humanizing language and so you describe the human being in dehumanizing language how do you and and you're doing it knowingly you've just admitted the baby how would you describe that thaning a
• 18:00 - 18:30 lie I didn't say that anthropomorphizing was necessarily a negative thing and as I said saying fetus is medical terminology and it is appropriate it is appropriate but it's dehumanizing you said no calling a clump of cells is dehumanizing calling it a fetus is not dehumanizing it's medically appropriate and it's medically consistent with how you should have you know Define then why the distinction why why do why do are you given the guidance to call it a fetus to the woman who doesn't want the
• 18:30 - 19:00 baby and a baby to the woman who does want the baby I've I've explained this to you but I can explain it maybe I'm just a little slow that's okay I'll I'll slow it down for you then it depends on the mentality of the pregnant person and how they feel towards that pregnancy because as a medical professional in that exam room you are trying to create a comfortable environment where that patient understands what their options are and what their situation is and so when you are trying to identify how feel about their current medical State you
• 19:00 - 19:30 want to use language that creates a comfortable environment for them so how do those two words affect their emotional state and what is the what is the reason for the distinction when a when a pregnant mother who doesn't want the baby here is you describe the baby as a fetus versus as a baby how are they per how are they perceiving and conceiving of that so I can probably ask you the same question Michael why on your show and in these interviews do you insist on calling it a baby is it because you
• 19:30 - 20:00 understand the emotional pull that that has on your viewers so you insist on using that language because you understand it's emotional no well no it's because I I think it's ontologically precise in exactly the way you just described because you say that the word baby is anthropomorphizing and you said that the the human being inside you is a human being and so it's appropriate to use humanizing language for human beings depending on the conversation that you are having because you have to be aware and compass passionate towards the person that you
• 20:00 - 20:30 are having that discussion right but I don't think it's compassionate to deceive people or to pretend that the human isn't a human I think that always disrespectful to lie to people calling it a fetus isn't lying calling it a fetus is Medical but it's it's less anthropomorphizing than baby you would admit it's medically appropriate but would you admit that it's less humanizing than the word baby less humanizing yes human F it's a human fetus it is so so if the if the two words are synonymous why is their guidance for one and then the other what
• 20:30 - 21:00 you keep saying it's because of the emotional state of the mother but okay how is that perceived how are how how do the emotions change hearing one word or the other again I think you understand this because you choose to say baby why why do you choose to say baby instead of fetus because it's I just there's an emotional no because it's precise because there's an emotional baggage that comes with baby and so if it because it's plain language and so I I generally try not to use sort of Latin or jargony terms for things that are plainly UND OD and so that's why I prefer good Saxon words and good plain
• 21:00 - 21:30 words and I don't use a 25 c word when I can use a nickel word and as you just said to to the the guidance to U use one word or the other based on whether the mother wants to have an abortion or wants to give birth to her child clearly though you don't don't seem willing to admit it but clearly is because the word fetus allows the this pregnant mother in distress to abstract away the humanity of her child and makes it easier for that woman to justify having an abortion
• 21:30 - 22:00 whereas if she were to call it a baby it would be much much harder for her to justify killing the baby in the womb through abortion right that's I think you would acknowledge that yeah I can I can acknowledge that calling it a baby minimizes the options that the pregnant person feels like they have and it can put unwanted pressure onto them and if they are not in a financial mental or physical state to carry through with that pregnancy appropriately calling in a baby makes them feel as if they have less options than they truly do and
• 22:00 - 22:30 should have so you you mentioned those three states that you might be in where you you don't want to where you want to kill your J uh Financial State psychological State and what was the other one physical state so I I understand the psychological state so let's put that to the side for a second we can get to it later what is the financial and physical state that would require one or greatly impel one to end their baby's life in the womb through abortion do you know
• 22:30 - 23:00 how much it costs to carry through with pregnancy all to well yeah please please it's not that it's actually not that expensive it's it's not cheap but it's not to to you it's not that expensive but can how expensive how expensive is it well you just went through it with your wife right you need to buy some prenatal vitamins you know you got to go to some doctor visits so it's good to have Healthcare though we're very lucky in this country that uh the very poor have health care uh through Medicaid and uh the elderly well I guess they don't get pregnant all that much but they could have Medicare and people have
• 23:00 - 23:30 health insurance through their uh employers and there is a public option in recent years and people can stand their parents Healthcare until the age of 26 so we have all sort and you can go to an emergency room whenever you want so there are all sorts of healthare options in the United States some of which could be improved and we could maybe get to that later but there are lots of healthcare options in the United States and uh then when one delivers in the hospital there is a a very large sticker price I mean it'll say $3,000 $50,000 but uh people don't really pay that price uh because insurance covers that and it's Al basically just a scam
• 23:30 - 24:00 to enrich the insurance companies but that's again another problem with the US Healthcare System people aren't actually writing $50,000 checks to give birth to their children so yeah I'm not saying it's cheap to eat well and be able to stay home on bed rest perhaps if the doctor uh requires that or to get prenatal vitamins or to raise a kid is very very expensive I'm not I'm not doubting any of that but to just get to the point of delivering the baby and then perhaps giving the baby up for adoption is not very expensive so
• 24:00 - 24:30 actually I'll correct you there so it costs about $188,000 on average to carry through with a pregnancy and I must have gotten a good deal then that from pockets and with if you have insurance the out-of- pocket cost is around $2 to $3,000 but what you might not understand either which I you know work in the medical field in rural North Carolina so I'm very much familiar with people who they do not have insurance or cannot afford Ins Insurance whether through their employer or if they're contract workers um it just depends and then the
• 24:30 - 25:00 limit for someone to um be qualified for Medicaid there is a good amount of people that fall in between there and I worked at a clinic that offered free care to people who were uninsured but don't qualify for Medicaid and our Clinic was busy all the time because there is a massive amount of people who fall in that area there's a great a great organization called good Council homes which I I really love it's a pregnancy center up in Connecticut and they do fabulous work for people who again might fall through the cracks or
• 25:00 - 25:30 might be very distressed and and for whom abortion might seem attractive because of that Financial reason but there are lots and lots of these organizations you mentioned the one that you work with I mentioned the one that I've done some work with and there are many many others around the country which is which is good that's a fact to be celebrated but it seems to undermine the argument that uh financial reasons impel people to get abortions no because we as we discussed in the beginning there's multiple reasons that someone might not be able to carry through with a pregnancy physically psychologically and financially and financially the
• 25:30 - 26:00 financial aspect of it cannot be belittle let's be serious I think I think you're you're over stating it right that's your opinion but for my opinion with experience I've got two kids under my belt hoping for more you know so they've actually found that about 40% of Americans cannot afford an unexpected $400 cost whether that be for their home for their health for whatever and so saying that it's not a big deal to inquire about if you have insurance a $2 to $3,000 cost and if you don't have
• 26:00 - 26:30 insurance it can be about $18,000 on average when 40% of Americans can't afford an unexpected $400 cost you are basically discounting the experience thing is the thing about those statistics though is they're not quite right because uh it's true that many Americans don't have a lot of money like cash available but Americans tend to have a lot of stuff because Americans carry a lot of debt so those numbers are also somewhat misleading because what people do is go into debt or in the if we're talking about something like an
• 26:30 - 27:00 adoption which is what we're really what we're really discussing here uh there are all sorts of wonderful adoption agencies and all sorts of wonderful programs provided by the state and provided by private charity that cover these costs for all sorts of people who are financially strapped but don't want to kill their children and so I I just think it's a a an an an argument to evade the basic question I promise you if you and I'll say say it to the camera right now if you are pregnant and you
• 27:00 - 27:30 feel that you can't afford to carry your child through pregnancy and you can't afford the $500 and you can't find an organization that'll cover it write to me I will write that check happily and it's not just me plenty of pro-life people around the country would do it that's why they do it that's why they give to these organizations do you you really believe $500 to $2,000 is uh that that Delta that people might may or may not be able to afford is is a strong justification for killing 850,000 human beings every year so again saying the
• 27:30 - 28:00 term killing 800,000 human beings that that is using manipulative and emotional language intentionally you said that the fetus is a human being that's that wasn't my language that's your language okay but killing a human being is not the same as aborting a fetus but you can use the manipulative and emotional language if you'd like grte I'm only using your language because you said that the it's alive and it's a human being and so what do you call it when you end a life it's just killing that's just the precise way to describe it and what do
• 28:00 - 28:30 you call a human being is a human being so I said you're killing a human being that's your language if that's how you'd like to describe it that's fine that's how you describe it well since we've talked about the financial aspects of abortion and pregnancy why don't we talk about the physical and mental aspects of it because that is really the heart of the bodily autonomy argument sure sure so the the physical uh issue mhm um I don't need to recite these statistics for you uh the percentage of
• 28:30 - 29:00 women who get abortions because the baby poses a direct threat to their lives it's a very small number and far less than 1% by direct threat to their lives you mean they're going to lose their life yeah okay well Michael do you know what the leading cause of death for pregnant people is pregnant people mhm mothers women if you'd like to call them mothers not all of them are mothers but if you'd like to call them that what are they if they're not mothers they're pregnant people what what people other than mothers are
• 29:00 - 29:30 pregnant does it bother you to use inclusive language it's just interesting I prefer to use precise language it's interesting because you come into this conversation you know trying to hold this moral superiority but then when I know I try to be moral when I can but I right but when I use inclusive language which it only takes a couple extra syllables to use inclusive language it seems to include people who don't CL you know identify as women but can become pregnant so like a person who is born a woman and then identifies as a man and is pregnant
• 29:30 - 30:00 yeah so you're telling me that in order to be a moral person I need to accept the idea that a man someone who is born a man who looks like a man can really become a woman that's that's a a prerequisite of my being a moral person I mean yes to to me it is because if you are trying to deny someone of their identity and deny what their life experience is then that doesn't seem like a moral stance to me I want to be accepting and I want to respect people's
• 30:00 - 30:30 life experiences and respect the way that they want to identify and respect the way that they want to present themselves to the world ronte I would like to identify I do identify actually as the correct person on this issue of abortion I identify as being correct and more correct than you on this issue and I would just ask that you accept and affirm my uh identity do you well you are not a medical professional and abortion and pregnancy is AIC concern
• 30:30 - 31:00 that's not your identity that is my I promise you that's my identity I promise you that's that's very different from your sexual and gender identity how so what what I'm talking here involves the mind I mean don't you think I'm not just talking about my goads or something like that I'm talking about I'm not just talking about my sexual appetites or desires I'm talking about my my mind my capacity for reason my judgment here and so you're saying you don't respect that identity but you do respect the identity of a man who believes him himself to be a woman I'm saying that you are someone
• 31:00 - 31:30 without medical training and pregnancy is a medical condition and abortion is a medical procedure and so we need to abide by the informed and knowledgeable opinions of medical experts again you are entitled to your opinion but you are not an informed and knowledgeable medical expert so your opinion is not equal and should not override the opinions of medical experts on this issue and they have stated unequivocally that abortion access is essential to
• 31:30 - 32:00 comprehensive evidence-based Healthcare Bronte do you are you a trained epistemologist no you haven't studied epistemology no and yet you are making claims about knowledge and how knowledge can be ascertained and expressed but you're not trained in that so it seems to me if I'm not allowed to have opinions about abortion because I'm not a trained Medical Professional you surely shouldn't be permitted to have opinions about how people hold opinions if you're not trained in the very study of knowledge epistemology I'm sorry if
• 32:00 - 32:30 you have a heart condition who do you go to do you go to your Deli worker or do you go to a Cardiologist I don't but well if you have a philosophical question who do you go to this isn't a philosophical question this is a question about it's a question about medical access this is a question about medical access no well ultimately what we're talking about is human life right I mean that is that's that's the reason it's a controversial issue well yes but also pregnant people are living human lives so we we are talking about their
• 32:30 - 33:00 life and their life takes precedent when it comes to medical care but that that's you now you've moved out of the realm of the Natural Sciences now you're into the realm of the philosophical science no no this this is a fundamental principle of medical ethics this a fundamental princip of ethics of medical ethics right which is a which is a species of Ethics broadly but but you just said you're not a trained ethicist you're not well you said you're not a trained epistemologist maybe you're a trained ethicist are you I I'm trained in medicine and we've had to take multiple courses in medical ethics I have my
• 33:00 - 33:30 masters in medical science I'm a thir year student not but not ethics or philosopy we have to take I don't know if you know this but at when you are going through medical training you are trained in ethics because otherwise doctor no I should hope I mean I should hope that anybody who has any education at all would have some training in ethics yeah that's true exactly but but you're you're would you call yourself an expert in ethics and I would call myself knowledgeable and also to be clear I call myself knowled but to be clear as I said at the beginning of this discussion we're we're not sitting here just having a discussion about our differences in
• 33:30 - 34:00 opinion I am here to educate you and your viewers on the guidelines and the published statements of our country's leading medical experts specifically the not even just the unpublished ones but the published ones but the published ones the public published opinions of the American College of Obstetricians and gynecologists who is our country's leading experts when it comes to the health and well-being of pregnant people and they say unequivocally and you can look there's also um Publications from Harvard from Colorado University from Yale name it our our country's our
• 34:00 - 34:30 country's leading Minds our country's leading Minds state that abortion access is essential so you are entitled to your opinion but it is not equal to the opinion of people who train their entire lives to understand the subject deeply well if we're citing experts and the leading authorities I I would I would be remiss if I didn't cite the president's Council on bioethical inquiry which uh in the middle of the 2000s assembled the nation's leading experts on bioethical
• 34:30 - 35:00 questions from all of the top schools with all of the fanciest degrees and they concluded that abortion is bioethic unacceptable it's immoral it's wrong you can't do it so I I'm not quite sure why I'm supposed to trust the trade organization of American Obstetricians over the the the bioethicists who uh certainly have far more expertise in this realm of knowledge than the Obstetricians who might be very good at delivering babies but might not be quite as as good at understanding matters of ethics and morality so Obstetricians and
• 35:00 - 35:30 gynecologists specialize in the health and well-being of pregnant people and pregnancy affects the health and wellbeing of pregnant people but it also affects the babies correct but when it comes to looking at a pregnant person their health when it comes to you know a medical condition that it is between the life of the pregnant person and ending the pregnancy the life of the pregnant person takes precedent unless otherwise specif ifed by the pregnant person because consent is everything so oh so
• 35:30 - 36:00 so you're saying that the life of the mother takes precedent unless the mother says no I don't okay now again the only reason I keep bringing up this matter of bioethics is that statement that you're making is not a statement that pertains to Natural Science it's in the way that I would say you know if you want to get a baby out you use this clamp or you know if you want to make an incision into an abdomen you use this sort of knife or this instrument uh the the when you say so and so's life takes
• 36:00 - 36:30 precedence over someone else's life that is a that is a philosophical statement and and an ethical statement which is different than a statement about you know Natural Science you know this glass is made up of certain chemicals or whatever uh so that's that's why I think you're conflating those two Realms here and you're trying to trade expertise from one realm in the Natural Sciences into expertise in another realm which would be philosophy and ethics and I'm I'm all for trying to bring these things together in in a you know University style way you know you bring knowledge
• 36:30 - 37:00 together because everything affects everything else but I think it's just disingenuous to claim then that Obstetricians or the Beall and endall authorities on on every single matter it's also worth pointing out these threats to the life of the mother are uh threats to her actual life are exceptionally rare I mean far less than 1% of people who have abortions du SI as a threat to the life of the mother there is no medical condition for which the the treatment is AB actually incorrect but also um as I
• 37:00 - 37:30 asked you before do you know the leading cause of death for pregnant people I assume it's some uh Co comorbidity of you know I don't know obesity or heart disease or uh something involving preclampsia I don't know it's actually homicide homicide is the number one cause of death for pregnant people number one cause of death for babies and abortion too it is but we are talking about living breathing people who are people's daughters sisters mothers did you know 59% of people who get abortions
• 37:30 - 38:00 already have children and so we're talking about them prioritizing their needs and their life and you trying to limit their ability to care for their already existing children and the number one cause of death for pregnant abity to care for you do because you know being able to afford medical care for pregnancy and labor takes away from their ability to care for their already existing children small way it costs a lot of money to raise children so if we're talking about $100 here or there which again I think we already pointed
• 38:00 - 38:30 out uh can be taken care of through any number of organizations through the state and through private charity uh but if if you know we're talking about the difference of $500 here the cost of raising a child to the age of 18 is enormous it's hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars correct and so if you're uh if if you won't be able to raise your children because of a $500 cost then you're not going to raise your children anyway right you can't afford to raise them anyway because the the total cost is juster a $500 cost is what the average cost of an abortion the average cost of pregnancy and labor is
• 38:30 - 39:00 188,000 without insurance about 3,000 with insurance and so I I don't you know again I see that you see yourself as a compassionate and moral person but in order I strive to be I don't know that I see myself that way but I certainly strive it doesn't seem so when you try to consistently minimize these hardships that people are encountering and you say it's not that much it's not that big I I just think that uh it is uh better for a mother to endure the discomfort and cost of pregnancy uh than it is for her to
• 39:00 - 39:30 murder her child is really what I think that's your opinion but it's also it's also not your right to decide what the what the amount of risk someone should take what amount of harm they should endure without their why is that not my right why is it not your right to decide what sort of risk that I should take over my body yeah why is that not my right because it is my body and I get to decide what kind of health risks that I accept but we we've already established that that in especially in a
• 39:30 - 40:00 self-governing republic we pass all sorts of laws that restrict people's bodily autonomy like drug laws so so why is it not my why is it my right to pass a law against you you about you using heroin but not my right to pass a law that prevents you from murdering your child for that matter we live in a self-governing republic we have laws against murder that limits what people can do with their own bodies to somebody else in exactly the same way that a law against abortion would limit what you can do with your own body to another human being can you tell me a scenario
• 40:00 - 40:30 where you can force someone to use their body to save the life of another individual of of a of a situation other than motherhood mhm uh no no I think motherhood is unique okay so you can't describe any other scenario where one human can be forced against their will to use their body to save the life of another person well I don't know I mean there there I wouldn't be opposed to a law that says you know if there's if you see a little kid drowning in a pool you
• 40:30 - 41:00 have an obligation to jump in the pool and pull the kid out I mean I think that would be perfectly reasonable that's not the same thing as using your internal organs and body well that's different yeah your internal organs that would be unique to Motherhood yeah right and so the fact that there is no other scenario where you can force a living person to use their body to save the life of another person means that you are trying to Grant fetus' rights that no other person on this Earth I think you're right to describe mother hood is a singular phenomenon yeah it is it is
• 41:00 - 41:30 unique mhm and motherhood is something that half of the population can possibly experience and the fact that there is half the population that will never have the possibility of experiencing that it's a great pity for us makes it so that when you are pushing for abortion banss it is essentially a sexist issue and you are creating you you know that the pro-life movement is mostly women and you know that women are split 50/50 on the issue also it's not pro-life it is anti- choice because if you actually whatever language you want to use the
• 41:30 - 42:00 movement against abortion the movement against abortion is mostly women and women are split basically 5050 in America on the issue so so to call it sexist or misogynist or whatever seems a little bit silly you're trying it would seem to me that you are describing this as you know the men forcing this on the women but that just if if you look at the makeup of the movement against abortion I call it the pro-life movement and you look at the the uh public opinion on abortion among women is mostly women so the the pure Research Center actually did surveys and found
• 42:00 - 42:30 that 61% of Americans feel that abortion should be accessible in all or most cases 29% of Americans found that it should be um accessible in cases of rape incest or to protect the life of the mother and 9% of Americans thought that those numbers don't seem to you're saying 61% of Americans say it should be available in all cases and 29% say it should be available for victims of rape mhm rape incest or for but why is that number small I I would
• 42:30 - 43:00 imagine that the number would say well certainly women who you know face an existential risk from pregnancy they should be able to have abortion wouldn't you expect that number to be higher you would expect it but I think show I just wonder if you if you were misreading the statistics because it doesn't seem credible to me no you can look it up it's on the Pew research it's by the Pew Research Center and they found that strange why would the number go down for a more dire situation no 29% of Americans think that it should only be accessible only be accessible in those scenarios and so I just want to make it
• 43:00 - 43:30 clear that 29% of Americans think that it should only be accessible for in cases of rape incest or um the risk life of the mother and so you are and I I understand that that might not even be the category that you find yourself in and only 9% of Americans believe that it should never be legal and so I just want to make it clear that you are in the minority on this issue your viewers might be as well problem the problem with the statistics though Bronte is that I mean I'll I'll just take your word for it on the Pew numbers but you can look at any number of polls on this
• 43:30 - 44:00 issue from Pew to Gallup to Harvard Harris to all of these other people and so I can find one poll I think it was Gallup but I forget which one it was that shows that only 6% of Americans believe that abortion should be legal in all circumstances 94% of Americans believe that there should be some restrictions on abortion and when you get even more granular on it you look at the way that the questions are phrased the the numbers become even more malleable so you know there are lies damned lies and statistics I think just if you look at the way that people vote you look at the way that uh you look at
• 44:00 - 44:30 the way that people uh Express their views through their elected representatives on questions of abortion it is roughly split that's why it's been a contentious issue for a very long time and uh and so you know you can I suppose you can have your statistics from your credible Research Institute and I guess I'll have mine yeah you know it's really easy to just discount statistics when you disagree with no but you discounting my statistics as well you didn't give me a source you didn't give me anything gallab but I I could be wrong my resources are actually they're also from
• 44:30 - 45:00 Gallup Pew and gallab Pew and Gallup they published uh very similar numbers oh interesting well I suppose I'll I suppose I'll just have to go look it up yeah please I encourage your viewers to as well because I I really just want to reiterate that you know you you feel like this is a 50/50 America is really split when really we are not 61% of Americans feel that abortion should be accessible in all or most cases that is the majority of Americans but but Bronte the the thing is and again by my statistics you know that
• 45:00 - 45:30 those numbers are very different and by the statistics at the prolifer sight but but even if that were the case let's say it's 61% okay 61% are pro-abortion for 60% are pro abortion 40% are are anti-abortion so what it's still it's still you know it's still roughly split though by your numbers that's obviously much more favorable to the pro-abortion side but but so what I mean that doesn't you know the the mob of people killed Socrates the mob of people chose barabus are we
• 45:30 - 46:00 really saying that the the uh measure of right and wrong is some uh conveniently selected public opinion poll well if you would like another statistic 95 well I'll give it to you anyways more than welcome to give it to you're welcome 95% of OBGYN say that they would assist a patient in receiving an abortion regardless of their personal feelings about it so where I where I so LBG YN could think that that what he or she is doing is actually murdering a baby and
• 46:00 - 46:30 then that person would do it anyway because wow I I certainly don't trust that person's judgment goodness gracious because and that's why I bring it up because when we look at the people in our society who are trained to care for the health and well-being of pregnant people even they understand 95% of them understand that their personal feelings about this matter cannot override and should not override a patient's ability to access comprehensive medical so why
• 46:30 - 47:00 do they have those personal feelings at all because your opinion you know is about your body and your life alone and we we can have opinions about all sorts of things that aren't our own body right exactly but as I said before the leading cause of death for pregnant people is homicide and I bring that up because you cannot pretend like you understand the situations that people find themselves in people's lives so what you're telling me is that if a woman is uh threatened with Murder by her
• 47:00 - 47:30 boyfriend uh because the boyfriend doesn't want her to be pregnant or something like that uh that uh that is why we need to uh basically uh give those women the option to kill their baby because their psychopath boyfriends might murder them if they don't murder their own child that's what you're telling me the solution is to these murderous boyfriends that you're describing are you minimizing the threat to someone's life no I just think that I don't think the the uh solu tion to a boyfriend threatening to kill a girlfriend if she doesn't kill her own
• 47:30 - 48:00 child is to encourage the girlfriend to kill her own child we're not encouraging her we are giving her the access to that option wouldn't it be better to send in the Civil authority to arrest the murderous boyfriend and protect the mother and the child in a perfect world yes but we don't live in that world what if the mother who is afraid of being murdered by her boyfriend wants to keep her child but she's afraid that she's going to get murdered uh so she feels that it'll just be sort of safer for her to go kill the child even if this this there was a video of this that just went viral recently of a clearly abusive
• 48:00 - 48:30 boyfriend who was trying to throw his pregnant girlfriend into a car to go get an abortion it went viral I think about 6 months or so ago and the the woman clearly doesn't want to get the abortion and the boyfriend really wants her to it's the exact situation that you're describing you think that the solution to that is to make it easier for the woman to get the abortion to make it easier to give the murderous boyfriend what he wants what I am saying well no because this entire thing is about consent it's about the I don't think it's about consent you don't seem to
• 48:30 - 49:00 respect consent think consent of no well you think it's the heart of the issue I think the baby's heart is the heart of the issue I think the baby's life is the heart of the issue consent is play plays a role in moral judgments but it's not the only Criterion that we consider when we come to moral decisions so can I ask you why do you find it so easy to have compassion for a fetus or a baby that is nonautonomous and has absolutely no awareness of own existence but you find it so difficult to expand expand that
• 49:00 - 49:30 compassion towards pregnant people well no I I don't think it's good for pregnant people also known as mothers to kill their children I don't think it's good for them I don't think it's good for the children uh I also uh would have to push back on your your argument that babies in the womb do not have any awareness they do have some awareness and they do react to their uh their environments they can kick and they can move and they can when when the mother eats something thing that's maybe a little spicy the baby will actually get hiccups and things like that and uh when
• 49:30 - 50:00 when you describe uh I don't know self-awareness I mean yeah it's true the baby in the womb does not have Consciousness you know what is it not going to discourse on you know Aristotle or something but a six-month-old baby isn't really conscious either right certainly a newborn baby has no more Consciousness than the baby in the womb does they're conscious just not aware but also I mean what do you mean by Consciousness first of all are you aware when we can talk about different numbers but are you aware of the time in which
• 50:00 - 50:30 80% of abortions take place like the state of gestation yeah relatively early first trimester okay do you know the week perhaps I don't know okay so 80% of abortions occur before week nine and you know you say that their babies are kicking and reacting are you aware of what a 9we old fetus looks like oh yes very well yes can you describe it to me yeah yeah well by really I suppose by the 10th week that's that's you know especially when you go in and you have your babies you go in for an 8-week
• 50:30 - 51:00 appointment by the eight-week appointment they can tell you the sex of of your baby which is amaz that's how well formed they are already uh by the 10we appointment they've got basically all of their features formed in a very rudimentary way but they're already quite formed and you can you can look and they no longer look like a little tadpole entirely they look much more like a human being they've got their little fingers already and their little toes y the tail is almost gone I actually have pictures for you right um so this is 9 weeks this is what a 9we fetus looks
• 51:00 - 51:30 like well let me see I would like to if you want to look at that and you would like to look at that you can look at this oh great yeah yeah and I know that you it's not like any ultrasound I've ever looked at though yeah I know that's why I brought them because when it is this an this isn't an ultrasound no this is a 9we fetus in a petrie dish in a petrie dish why are why do you have the thing in the petri dish to Discount misinformation that is spread about this issue just like you do how did the baby get into the Petree dish it's I believe
• 51:30 - 52:00 these are aborted and so this so you're saying that a baby that has been sucked out and dismembered looks a little bit different they they aren't abort they aren't dismembered because there isn't enough of them they the fetus is barely recognizable to the naked eye how how are how is that baby aborted so at N9 weeks it's usually just a pill that expels the fetus what what does the the pill all the pill does is expel the baby yeah it basically makes the uterine lining not able to um or the fetus not
• 52:00 - 52:30 able to adhere to the uterine lining and it sheds it it's there's various mechanisms so the there are what are some of the other mechanisms well it depends on the week of gestation let's say around 10 weeks we're talking about so I think after 10 weeks is they what they will do is it's no longer going to be a pill they essentially um inject like say lean solution and they inject and it it um removes it from the uterine lining so a it's a a basically a poison no no it's flushing it's cleaning out
• 52:30 - 53:00 the uterus but it but it's a yeah I'm not saying it's cyanide or something like that but it's you're injecting a chemical into the uterus usually like saline solution right but I can if I put Salan Solution on a slug it'll shrivel up and die yeah are you a slug do humans react the same way as Salan solutionist slugs do yes little babies do no why to kill no the connection between the mother between the baby and the placenta and the mother
• 53:00 - 53:30 and to flush out the poor little baby so this is why I think it's really gly and disingenuous of you to to no I'm I'm bringing this because you consistently want to anthropomorphize this issue you described the baby as anthropomorphic you described the baby as a human you did you said it's a human being it is a human being but you know you're accusing me of anthropomorphizing a human being this is a n we old fetus this is a 9we old fetus and I bring this to try to address misinformation about can I if you would please allow me sure
• 53:30 - 54:00 it's just really ghastly to show a picture of a person who's been killed and I apologize for that but I do apology implies that you'll correct your behavior you're not doing that because people such as yourself and there are different multiple different websites that like to share propaganda about this issue and I am here to try to present a medically accurate representation of what a murder victim of what this issue is and when you try to act as though it
• 54:00 - 54:30 is murder I want your audience to truly truly understand what we are talking about because I am not saying that a woman with a desired pregnancy shouldn't feel connected to her fetus that's not what I'm saying I am saying when we are having when we have a person with an unwanted pregnancy you cannot act as though their choice to you know decide
• 54:30 - 55:00 what is best for their life and their body is murder when in reality it is a living person standing in front of you who's a living breathing person with dreams and aspirations who is a mother sister you know daughter was a mother no 59% of people who get abortions are mothers with existing children and so I just all of them have existing children they all do you you I mean Bronte what's so confusing about this to me and what's
• 55:00 - 55:30 very silly I think about showing pictures of aborted babies is it would be as though if you were to ask me to show you a picture of uh you know what does an Italian guy in New York look like okay and I showed you a picture of of a of a young 25-year-old Italian guy SPL out on the street chopped up bleeding Dead versus uh you know an Italian boy uh you know eating a bowl of spaghetti or something like that those
• 55:30 - 56:00 two pictures would look very very different and so what the the trick the deception that you've engaged in is you've taken a baby who has been killed through abortion and been separated from his mother and splayed out and squeezed out and and looks unrecognizable and you're pretending that that and you're what you're pretending is that that cadaver is uh what a a baby who has not been killed by his mother who is still in the womb and who is growing and was exhibiting all the signs of life and it was moving and it was little fingernails even at a small see no this was expelled
• 56:00 - 56:30 it was not dismembered if you look at this primarily most of the tissue here is the gestational Sac because the beginnings of pregnancy the gestational sack and the placenta are was some of the first things created because that is what attaches to the uterine lining and provides the fetus with resources and expels its waste that is primarily in the first few weeks of pregnancy those are the tissue contents that are created before the fetus is really developed in a 9we old uh fetus like I have here the
• 56:30 - 57:00 fetus itself is hardly distinguishable to the human eye because it's so small because it's so small and so that is why I bring it up because so hold on then the because when you present this you say well actually this mostly isn't the fetus this mostly is all this other stuff okay but then you're not showing me what a fetus looks like the fetus is in this picture right but just very very very small so how much of that picture is the fetus it is indistinguishable to the human eye oh so so now all you're
• 57:00 - 57:30 saying is the fetus at that stage it's not that uh it's not that the fetus you know looks like all this tissue actually isn't really the fetus CU you you can't see the it's in there but you can't really see it so now you're what you're admitting is you're not showing people a picture of a fetus you're showing P people a picture of a gestational sack that's been expelled with a tiny fetus if you wanted to show people what a fetus looks like at the age of 10 weeks in gestation you would show them the fetus itself and you would have to zoom in because it's very tiny you have to
• 57:30 - 58:00 use a microscope we have mic you know this is the year of Our Lord 2022 we have plenty of medical Technologies which are being put to Great evil but we we can also put them to good use and show what the baby looks like and it is simply a fact at 10 weeks the baby looks like a baby and has little fingernails and little toes all extrem do you see the baby in this photo I don't have a mic exactly and that's what I'm telling you and that's what I'm telling you that I need a microscope so bring a microscope so when we talk about so when we talk about abortion 80% of abortions this is the contents and so when we talk
• 58:00 - 58:30 about can I please Michael I allowed you to finish and I would well I appreciate you're allowing me that but I guess I just I don't want to move past this point your argument now is not that the baby looks in a way that you wouldn't expect the baby to look your argument is simply that abortion is permissible at this stage because the baby is very very small and you can't see him in my photograph no I am saying that abortion is permissible because it is about the use of the person's body who is pregnant and I bring these photos because there
• 58:30 - 59:00 is so much misinformation put out about this issue well like you like to say oh they react when you eat something spicy they have little fingers and toes when in reality the fetus at 9 weeks where 80% of abortions occur is hardly distinguishable to the human eye so to say that a living person sitting in front of you with dreams and aspirations and health situations and Financial situations mental situations that you cannot possibly understand when they are
• 59:00 - 59:30 sitting in front of you telling you that they do not consent whether it be because they cannot or will not you know endure a pregnancy you are saying that the tissue within their uterus which is primarily just a gestational sack and a microscopic fetus that is worth more than their desires about their own body and you know when misinformation is spread about this issue it is as if these babies are dismembered and is this
• 59:30 - 60:00 very emotional and manipulative language used when in reality that is not what happens they've only been poisoned with a pill and flushed out they hav they haven't been poisoned they they've made the uterus an inhabitable uninhabitable so then it is expelled yeah that sounds like poison to me but to the point you're making here Bronte is you're saying it's misinformation when I say a baby at 10 weeks in gestation has little fingers and toes are you you're saying that's misinformation I'm saying that it's not distinguishable and it is not you the
• 60:00 - 60:30 human eye I can't see your toes with my human eye do you have them do you have them I do have toes yes you do but I can't see them with the human eye because I have shoes on Michael but if I took my shoes off they are distinguishable to the human now what if you were 5 miles away and I couldn't see your toes 5 miles away because I with my human is this picture 5 miles away from you Michael no it is not what I am saying is you can't see my toes because they're within my shoe you can't see a fetus because it is inside of a person
• 60:30 - 61:00 when it is removed from that person you still cannot see the fetus whether you are 5 miles away or 5 Ines away and you trying to use emotionally manipulative language to reach your audience and try to get them to vote to ban abortion against the opinion of medical experts that is why I bring these photos because there are hardly any medically accurate photos representing this issue and instead it is primarily illustrations
• 61:00 - 61:30 and propaganda that is pushed to manipulate people into removing the bodily autonomy from their fellow citizens when in reality these fetuses are hardly distinguishable to the human eye and we should instead look at the person that I can see in front of me and respect their right to decide what is best for their she is a living breathing person with desire you already said that the baby is living it's not breathing it is not autonomous so if if the if the pregnant mother is intubated then we can
• 61:30 - 62:00 kill her CU she's not breathing so that's actually a good question so if we have someone who's on life support what are they connected to uh tubes and breathing machines to a machine right and a fetus is connected to a human so when you use this analogy there's two options either you didn't think your analogy threw very well or you think that living people are equivalent to inanimate objects and
• 62:00 - 62:30 machines and so if that pregnant person who is intubated and connected to a machine If instead they needed to be connected to a living person in order to survive our current laws and medical ethics would never allow you to force someone to connect themselves to that person to keep them alive unless we're talking about the uni unique case of motherhood I I mention it because because you said that in order for a person to have a right to life he needs to be breathing but that's obviously ridiculous and and then the other point
• 62:30 - 63:00 here you've mentioned is that uh that because I can't see a fetus at nine weeks gestation with the naked eye that he he isn't real or doesn't exist or doesn't have a right to life or something like that but I I just I I wonder how you apply this principle are you saying that the existence or inexistence of a thing is dependent upon whether or not you can see it with your naked eye I am saying that even if you give a fetus all of the rights of a born
• 63:00 - 63:30 living breathing person they still cannot use someone's body to survive without their consent that's a good that's a good thing to discuss and I want to get to that but I I don't think we can move past this naked eye thing which just seems to me so Preposterous you're saying because I can't see someone with a naked eye that that person doesn't exist I'm saying that someone that I can see and speak to standing in front of me cannot use my body against my will and neither can
• 63:30 - 64:00 someone that I cannot even distinguish without a microscope they cannot use my body against my will why not I mean they can obviously they can that's what children do I mean usually it's with your will because we're talk because people generally consent to have sex and children but even if even if that were not the case you just accidentally become pregnant or something like that it is simply a fact that your child can and does use your body even if it is against your will so of course that can happen because we're talking about the unique case of motherhood right and so
• 64:00 - 64:30 you are arguing that in no other case can someone use someone else's body against their will unless we're talking about motherhood right so you only think that we should remove bodily autonomy from people with uteruses well I don't know what you mean by bodily autonomy we've just we've already accepted at the beginning of our conversation that we don't have an a total inalienable right to do whatever we want with our own bodies it's interesting that you say that when you can't describe one scenario for me in which someone can use someone else's body legally yeah no I'm
• 64:30 - 65:00 telling you that's that would be a a unique fact of mother right and that is when I say bodily autonomy that is what I mean I mean the use of your body and decisions about what happens to your body no no decisions about what happens to your body that's different because of the drug laws and the LA decisions when it comes to how your body is used how if your body is being used by another person yeah well or how you use your own body right that would be the case of laws against suicide and drug use sure so that so then it's not unique but if
• 65:00 - 65:30 we're talking about a you know a baby growing inside you yeah of course that's unique to Motherhood that's the definition of pregnancy right so that's unique yeah I grant that right exactly and so you cannot describe one scenario where someone can use someone else's body totally exactly and that's what I'm trying to describe is the only people the only people in our society that you think don't deserve full bodily autonomy are people with no no no okay by if by bodily autonomy you mean um the only the only people
• 65:30 - 66:00 who can have babies grow inside them are mothers that is true I agree with that's a fact of life that's true and those are the only people in our society that you are arguing should have their rights to their own body removed well I don't think they have rights to kill babies right because you don't think that they have rights to their own body well I yeah I don't think people have a total right to do whatever they want with their own bodies anyway as we've already established right but you don't believe that they have the right to remove consent to what do you mean to remove
• 66:00 - 66:30 consent if they don't consent to their body being used you don't believe that they have the right to remove that no I think if you create a child you don't have the right to kill him yeah I agree I agree with that you don't think that if your body is being used against your will that you have the right to decide that you don't want that to happen yeah in the case of a little baby no I don't think you have the right if you've changed your mind and you say I don't I don't like this baby anymore and I want to kill him I don't think you have a right to kill him just because you no longer consent right even though your
• 66:30 - 67:00 opinion does not coincide with the opinions of medical experts yeah well it certainly coincides with the opinions of bioethical experts and it's certainly with some medical experts but yeah I don't really care what some Maniac obstr except for 95% of OBGYNs who are the country and the world's leading experts on pregnant people 95% of them would you know help their patient access abortion regardless of their own personal you just told me a number of them would commit murder even though they think get murder so I don't really trust no I'm I'm telling you that people who spend their lives training to care for
• 67:00 - 67:30 pregnant people and understand the complexities of pregnancy and the lives of pregnant people understand that regardless of their own feelings that they cannot impede someone's access to Medical Care and so I understand that you might not feel like that's appropriate but for me I would want my doctors who train their entire lives to be specialists in their field I believe that we should abide by their expertise and that someone who's not trained in
• 67:30 - 68:00 the complexities of medicine their opinion should not override someone's opinion I think we're talking a little bit in circles now and I I yeah I don't think that the Obstetricians necessarily have the uh great greatest training in ethics or uh you know uh philosophy or morality or anything like that but so I I don't trust them on those issues or I don't really trust the medical establishment on a whole host of issues because they tend to get get things wrong frequently sometimes egregiously wrong but regardless uh I then have to
• 68:00 - 68:30 ask why has this become such a cause for you you you're a very prominent voice on this issue what is it about abortion where you say this is this is my issue so it was actually an accident um essentially I'm I'm in medical school I am a woman and medicine and seeing the rights to our bodies be removed against the expertise of medical experts that is a passionate issue for me because I am
• 68:30 - 69:00 trained and passionate in defending the opinions of medical experts so it was medical school that started this yeah I well I mean i' I've always been pro-choice my entire life um ironically I grew up in Texas and I grew up Republican but I was always you grew up Republican I did I grew up Republican what happened for what happened I became educated Michael oh did you I did I became educated and formed and I realized that you know my opinions on
• 69:00 - 69:30 certain things were completely removed from the reality of the issue and then the deeper and deeper that I got into my education like I said I got my masters I'm almost done with my doctorate and I realized that people who train their entire lives to analyze this issue are you know putting up a very solid front and there's 95% of them that agree that this is a we should have access to this if the uh American Academy of Obstetricians or whatever the group is if they told you to walk off a bridge would you do it that's not pertaining to
• 69:30 - 70:00 my medical care well it's it would be depending on how well you swim that's not pertaining to my medical care that's that's not a medical condition that is not a medical treatment so it is an irrelevant question if they told you that the best treatment for cancer is to eat a lollipop jumping on a pogo stick would you trust them if they showed me the science behind it then sure oh okay well that's a little bit different that's a little then you're using because then you're not just to The Experts you're using your own faculties of Reason well the experts use evidence-based medicine and so if they
• 70:00 - 70:30 are able to show me the evidence behind their opinion which all medical experts should be able to do then I trust them which on this issue of abortion and abortion access they are able to show multitudes of studies how of why it's okay to kill a human no why Banning abortion access actually harms more people so Colorado University actually did a study showing that abortion Bans are likely going to increase maternal mortality by by 24% and that abortion bans do not minimize or decrease the
• 70:30 - 71:00 amount of abortions that occur they don't no really they do not so what happened to abortion after roie Wade was decided what do you mean the number of abortions we have the statistics what happened did it go up or down I mean it depends because a lot of but a lot of people because abortions become illegal and they are difficult to quantify no but roie Wade made abortion legal nationally what happened to the total number of the total number of abortions that are accessed through proper medical channels decreased not the amount of abortions that happen at people's homes
• 71:00 - 71:30 and unsafely and illegally no no maybe maybe you misheard roie Wade 1973 legalizes abortion so the total number of abortions that happened after abortion became legal you you just said that the the number sorry I thought you were returning to the over yeah so 1973 cuz you're just saying that abortion bans actually don't reduce the number of abortions realizing it doesn't necessarily increase it but what happened no that's it doesn't go the other way because people who desire an
• 71:30 - 72:00 abortion and need an abortion are going to access it regardless if it's illegal or legal safe or unsafe but it it has it has to go the other way because the question is is the regulation of the abortion so it it necessarily has to go it's going to if you legalize abortion it increases the safe and legal abortions if you ban abortion it's going to increase the amount of illegal and unsafe abortion but it is what about the total number of abortions though that's what I'm asking about the the illegal ones and the legal ones and the bad ones you don't like and the good ones you do
• 72:00 - 72:30 like what happened after roie way well the safe and legal ones when roie Wade and the total abortions it stays relatively the same it's going to increase in the statistics because we can quantify the amount of people who receive abortion access through medical care but we can we can also quantify the illegal ones too so why don't you why don't you tell me Michel well the the abortions went way way up and they actually doubled but but even to your point on quantifying illegal abortions legal abortions you know we can quantify the illegal abortions and there was this Canard that went around that before roie
• 72:30 - 73:00 way thousands of women died every year from illegal abortions and you're referring to maternal mortality rates are being predicted by all the doom and Loom people do they're going to Skyrocket uh you probably know this statistic how many women actually died the year before Rie Wade was decided from illegal abortions in the United States I know that about 7 to 800 um women die every year from pregnancy complications and I know that unsafe abortions are in the top four leading causes of maternal mortality but I don't
• 73:00 - 73:30 know the amount of people who died prior to roie Wade from illegal abortions 39 in in uh the year before Rie wers decided 39 women and those 39 women that's not a big enough number for you to care no not but do you know how many women died from legal abortions that year that's same legal wonderful safe beautiful how many 24 now if you look at the percentage of states where abortion was legal and illegal the craziest thing is that your likelihood of dying from a legal abortion or illegal abortion was virtually the same see and I've seen different numbers I've seen that only in the P I believe it was 2018 only two
• 73:30 - 74:00 people died from complications from um legal abortion oh well of course because the numbers declined dramatically the way that they got away with pretending that 5,000 women died a year from abortion other than Dr Bernard Nathanson admitted that he just made it up when he was running Nal but uh the reason is because decades prior many more women died from abortions because medical care just had not progressed to that point but so obviously since 19 73 medic Medical Care has progressed even more so you would expect that number to go down for legal and illegal the reason I bring
• 74:00 - 74:30 it up is because th those scare numbers are uh I I think they're just used as a kind of propaganda they they deceive in that the numbers usually aren't right and they're dramatically wrong and uh and because the number for the illegal and the legal were basically the same so my question for you is it seems like you consistently want to find ways to minimize the harm that is experienced by pregnant people and you you really want to hone in on mortality right because
• 74:30 - 75:00 you think that death is the only negative outcome of pregnancy no I never said that there's a lot of suffering that goes along with pregnancy exactly and you think that you get to decide that people who become pregnant should just be obligated to endure that suffering whether or not yes if the alternative is killing the baby then yes yes so even though the fetus that is completely unaware of its own existence and is not even own existence right but people aren't getting abortions at 3 months and people who do get abortions at 3 months it is largely because of medical concerns or because they do not have
• 75:00 - 75:30 timely access I mean 3 months out of the womb I mean a 3month old after birth they're not aware of they're not aware of themselves but they can feel they can feel pain they can feel fear they fear hope not not at N9 weeks they cannot not at nine weeks it's questionable no it's really not not from science because we understand the neural networks that are required in order for you to perceive pain and feel emotion and those neural networks are not present at nine weeks yeah well it's it it's questionable C uh people keep moving the definition so you could say that a baby at 10 weeks has a beating heart well those it doesn't
• 75:30 - 76:00 actually have it doesn't actually have a beating heart because it doesn't look totally like a heart no because it doesn't have all of the chambers of your heart it is not an anatomical heart it is the electrical cells that are able to have an electrical impulse and so again in order you know when you use this language like the heart is beating and it has a beating heart canar the ultas many actually that's a simulated heart sound because it is an electrical imp because your heart sounds when say we listen with a stethoscope the heart sounds are made from the valves of your
• 76:00 - 76:30 heart opening and closing that is what creates that heart sound and when you don't have the proper chambers of your heart at that week of gestation many times the sound on the ultrasound machine is a simulated sound it can pick up the electrical impulses but it's a simulated sound exactly it's translating a a a represented into a representation so it it is true that a baby at 10 weeks gestation is different in a way from a you know a 10 unel yeah right it's
• 76:30 - 77:00 undeveloped nonsens nonon it's not undeveloped it's just less developed no it's undeveloped but it's it's more developed than it was at nine weeks right it's developing sure so uh yes it's true that you it it translates that heart impulse into a sound in some cases uh but where does the sound come from the sound is a representation of what is and will further become the baby's heart but is not yet existing anatomical heart the way it's anatomical yeah but it is not
• 77:00 - 77:30 existing in the way it does it does it's both of those things it is electrical cells it is cells that carry an electrical yeah it's cells proper to a 10- week old baby that are that are that are different in in some way from cells at a 15 week old baby and a 10-year-old baby and a 25y old and again I'm going to continue to repeat even if you want to apply all of the same rights that a living breathing person has do you want to give the fetus those same rights nobody has the right to use your body
• 77:30 - 78:00 against your will not a 9we old fetus not a 40-year-old man it doesn't matter and so when you want to remove the right for someone to decide what happens to their body you are arguing that the only people who should have those rights to their body removed are people with uteruses who become purposefully or accidentally pregnant they are not deserving of basic human rights and that is what you I really like people with uteruses so I I have no problem with them but right when when you get to decide what happens to their body when they are D try to well we live in self so yeah we we make all sorts of
• 78:00 - 78:30 decisions about how we should live but you you keep going back to rights which is interesting to me because I I don't think of politics primarily through a lens of Rights but you do you keep going back to rights you say fundamental rights to do what whatever I want with my body in these circumstances or whatever so okay if we're talking about rights are all rights equal or All rights on this you know my right to have this pink fruity drink here is that the same as your right to I don't know drive a car or something no I don't believe they're all equal no okay so then there are gradations of Rights some are more important than others is there one most important right
• 78:30 - 79:00 that you would call it a fundamental right the fundamental right the right to your body and the right to decide what happens to your body there's no right that that precedes it I mean it depends what what rights do you think prede that please well it would seem to me that the the right to your body and the right to do certain things to your body must necessarily be preceded by the right to life without which you have your body or the ability to do anything at all mhm well and as I've described Your Right to Life does
• 79:00 - 79:30 not get to supersede or overwrite some override someone else's right to bodily autonomy but I thought we just admitted that it did because we I I thought we just oh you didn't agree with me okay because it seems to me if we're going to have any rights at all the right to drink my fruity drink the right to have a lovely conversation in this kind of black room here any of these other rights that all of those rights depend upon the right to life which is not just one right among many but is it is the fundamental right and so therefore if if
• 79:30 - 80:00 rights are to have any meaning at all the right to life must supersede all of the other ones and I disagree I think that you have I think you have a right to life but your right to life does not override someone's right to bodily autonomy saying that but why is that true because you as I've asked you quite a few times now you cannot describe to me one instance except motherhood where it is acceptable for you to motherhood's Unique but I'm just saying what you are
• 80:00 - 80:30 saying that the right to do whatever you want with your body supersedes the right to life it's more fundamental than the right to life and I explain to you why I think that the Right to Life Is Fundamental and uh more important than all those other rights and I gave you maybe you don't like my argument or something but I think I at least spelled it out in a way that's fairly clear and logical so what is your argument as to why the right to control your own body uh is uh more fundamental than the right to life because I think that if you allow the government to decide that
• 80:30 - 81:00 someone else's right to life can override your right to bodily autonomy that is opening the door for a lot of terrifying things to happen this is why you have to volunteer to be an organ donor this is why you have to volunteer to be a Blood Donor things like that if if we allowed the government to say that someone else's right to life can supersede your right to your body that is a pretty terrifying amount of power to give to the government no we're speaking about I mean you're talking about organ donations but we're speaking
• 81:00 - 81:30 about this unique case right because no we're talking about the use of your body right but but for instance ronte uh I have kidneys I don't I don't need both of my kidneys I maybe I do to filter all these terrible things I put into my body but I don't really need both of them I could give them to someone else but it would be wrong if the government came in and said Michael we're taking your kidney now because Bronte needs said I might give it to you voluntarily but I certainly wouldn't want someone coming in gunpoint taking my kidney away that
• 81:30 - 82:00 would be wrong even if you even if you were in Dire Straits I I wouldn't I still might give it to you but I don't want someone taking it from me and I don't think that I have an obligation to give you my kidney he is my kidney is for filtering my blood that's what it's for right in the same way a woman's womb is for nurturing a child that is the teoss that is the the purpose of the womb it serves no other purpose uh so I don't think that these the analogy that you're making here is apt I think once
• 82:00 - 82:30 again it gets back to the unique status of motherhood so the the same thing can be said for your liver right your liver well my no one wants my liver well but your liver the purpose of your liver is to detoxify your blood it can it can process alcohol it can process all kinds of toxins but if I don't ingest those toxins then my liver doesn't have to do that job if I don't choose to Harbor a fetus my uterus doesn't have to Harbor that fetus just because your body can do
• 82:30 - 83:00 something doesn't mean that you should be compelled to for it to if you choose not to have a drink then your liver is not going to process alcohol there's no way the alcohol got in there but if you decide after I don't know you know you had a crazy weekend you went out here to Nashville met a nice guy you would never do this but I'm saying you know women of ill repute would go out and you know they meet a guy he's not so nice anyway the next morning she finds out she's pregnant really four weeks later she
• 83:00 - 83:30 find out it' be very but mothers know you know and anyway she finds out she's pregnant she says oh darn I don't want to be pregnant and uh you know that that baby has no right to be in my womb she has engaged in behavior that that would introduce the baby into her womb in a way that uh if if you put the drink down you will not be introducing alcohol to your liver so should we then deny Health Care to alcoholics because they partook in behaviors that caused them to have liver failure should we deny smokers
• 83:30 - 84:00 access to medical care because they they partook in you know in behaviors that damaged their lungs no no no but you believe that we shouldn't kill them though I don't think we should kill them you know or steal their livers or anything like that just like I don't think I don't think we should go in and kill the baby just cuz the but you are saying that you get to judge someone based off of their behaviors and because of those behaviors and because of those behaviors you believe that they should be denied Access to Health Care in order to address the effects of those behaviors and not if it's a drinker not
• 84:00 - 84:30 if it's a smoker but if it's a woman then sure now we get to remove the right to her body and the effects of her behaviors no well and I I guess we're we're again missing the point I don't think a mother ever has the right to kill her child in any circumstances so I I I I'm not uh suggesting that we single mothers out here or that it be very judgmental or anything like that or deny anybody Healthcare I just don't think that killing a baby is ever Healthcare I think that's a euphemism and you kind of admitted at the top when we talk about
• 84:30 - 85:00 the distinction between babies and fetuses see and that's that's where you're wrong though because when we we've talked about maternal mortality rates we've talked about the number one cause of death for pregnant people isal mortality is still very low by the way right do you know the amount of people who have do you know the difference between maternal mortality and maternal morbidity uh no inlighten me so morbidity is essentially unforeseen or serious health effects of medical conditions so maternal morbidity is when someone experiences severe complications of pregnancy and labor and I know that
• 85:00 - 85:30 you think that 7 to 800 women dying annually from pregnancy is too low for you to to care but no I we should bring the number down but we shouldn't kill 8,000 babies to uh pretend to resolve that so 60,000 people every year have serious maternal morbidity which means um there's certain codes that they use and um like Insurance codes that they use use to determine whether or not you experienced a severe side effect and some of those codes are being having an ICU admission or needing multiple blood
• 85:30 - 86:00 transfusions things like that and 60,000 women every year are admitted into the ICU or need blood transfusions what have you definition of a of a severe com morbidity there's I think we talking about I or are we talking about certain things that are less sever it's severe that what be some of the other examples so it depends because it can be sepsis um I think pulmonary embolism there's there's multi there's multitudes of different complications that we're not
• 86:00 - 86:30 talking something like tearing or something like that no that's minor and that's not included in 60,000 so that's my point is 60,000 women every year experience severe morbidity and that's not including the women who just develop things like diabetes or have a paranal tear oh well this is that's actually a very important point that you bring up of some of these problems that go along with pregnancy because something that the abortion Advocates mention that often is not addressed by the pro-life movement not not that I think it needs
• 86:30 - 87:00 to be but it's interesting nonetheless is that the United States is not the best when it comes to maternal mortality we're not the worst but we're not the best and and there are lots of problems with it but the the reason for that of course is not because of Any uh conspiracy among the doctors or you know misogyny or anything like that I don't think I think it probably has more to do with America's disproportionate rates of obesity and heart disease and diabetes you look especially it's not as though uh complications of pregnancy are the same across all demographics it's
• 87:00 - 87:30 largely concentrated in black women and the reason for that it would seem to would seem to me is that black women are much more likely to be obese and to have heart problems and have diabetes and all those things that are that that that do factor into pregnancy problems but that that's not a again I don't think any of that is a good argument to kill a bunch of babies every single year uh but that seems like a health issue that should be addressed elsewhere right getting people to exercise put down the cupcake not not be so obese and have many pregnancy complications are unavoidable and
• 87:30 - 88:00 unforeseen and so sure there are comorbidities that make you more likely lot of them but some are not I agree but a lot of them but when we live in a country where Healthcare is inaccessible and in affordable to a large majority of Americans or a large percentage of Americans yeah that seems like overstating well it yeah it it depends on the statistics and it depends on what you classify as unaffordable and unaccessible because you know someone can be you know living in a rural area and be less accessible someone you know can be in financial situations be not affordable it just depends on your classification but I don't the thing is
• 88:00 - 88:30 this entire conversation you are very fetus centered where I am very yes where I am very woman centered when we are going through these scenarios you consistently Center the fetus where I consistently Center the woman I want to consider her health her finances her mentality and her body do you think that I'm neglecting that yes yes because you believe that the only people in our society who shouldn't get to decide what happens to their body are people with
• 88:30 - 89:00 uterus I don't think that people have an absolute right over their own body exactly and and that's I anybody does that's where we disagree you but I know but you're putting an opinion into my head that you've said it multiple times that you what you've said is you cannot tell me one scenario in society where someone can use someone's body against their will but unless is hard labor in a prison you know that would be one scenario yeah well that that's in a completely different topic because that is you know essentially but if when you described it
• 89:00 - 89:30 and you said you know give give name me a scenario where someone other than a mother or I'm sorry a pregnant person has someone growing inside of them using their organs I say okay I can't name any other scenario you're right that's unique to Motherhood you're right you're right it is unique no I didn't say growing inside of them I said tell me a scenario where someone can use someone else's body without their consent and you can't name me a time just told you hard labor in a prison well I mean that again that is an issue in of itself I believe we should we shouldn't that's
• 89:30 - 90:00 not rehabbing someone like that is definitely taking advantage of a broken system well but yeah but there are three purposes to criminal justice I guess this is a little bit of a pivot here but it's not just Rehabilitation we could all use a little Rehabilitation people go to prison to get punished yeah well it should be Rehabilitation should it not I mean that this is a pivot and I just think it's funny that the only other scenario you can bring up is definitely a symptom of a broken system and so no I don't think that's definitely I think it's good to punish criminals I think that's good I mean why is that bad it depends on the crime but
• 90:00 - 90:30 I I am bad crime like you again I mean this is you know going off in into the weeds but I'm I'm naturally compassionate person and I see the best in people and I believe especially a lot of crime is committed because of circumstances that people find themselves and I think I don't mean to be this blunt but I guess I have to be you have been sitting here describing how it is good and moral to permit a system to exist that kills 850,000
• 90:30 - 91:00 people who you admit are human beings every single year because of the desires of another person that has been your position and I'm not calling you evil because of that I think you're just extraordinarily confused and misguided but to say you know I'm such a compassionate person as I make it my Jihad to to per permit the killing of 850 50,000 babies who I admit are babies every single year seems to me absurd see and this is why I bring up that you are
• 91:00 - 91:30 entirely fetus centered in this conversation and you completely disregard the trauma experienced by entirely said so many times that women suffer in pregnancy but you don't feel like it's worth protecting them from you don't I think it's definitely worth protecting them and giving them the best medical care you can I just don't think it's worth sanctioning the killing of 850,000 babies a year giving people Medical Care does not you know minimize or does not get rid of the trauma and suffering of pregnancy you can have all
• 91:30 - 92:00 the medical care in the world available to you and you still will experience some trauma some pain and some suffering throughout your pregnancy you want you want to mitigate that that's right but if you do not consent to that suffering you just about rape which is a very very small percentage of abortions every so it doesn't matter right it's worth disc it's worth discussing but it that is clearly a a the ception of the exception of the exception not the rule consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy oh yes it is no it is not it's consent it's
• 92:00 - 92:30 consent to the possibility of pregnancy it's not consent to enduring pregnancy as I've said but if it's consent to the possibility of pregnancy then it is consent to pregnancy it is not it is not consent to enduring pregnancy I I I I don't even know how to respond to that how is it not I it's you you've just said that when you consent to sex you are acknowledging the possibility of becoming pregnant and consenting to that mhm so you are consenting to that if if I if I consent to go to the bar and I
• 92:30 - 93:00 know that if I go to the bar there's a possibility that I get drunk and then I know if I get drunk there's a possibility that I have a hangover the next morning then when I go out there to that bar with the boys for a Rowdy Saturday night I am consenting to that hangover that I am going to have that will involve some suffering and maybe teach me some lessons in the the morning right so I don't see how is that different with pregnancy right I'll explain it to you so because it's not that different so say that not you just
• 93:00 - 93:30 didn't have a hangover because a hangover doesn't necessarily require Medical Care say that you had alcohol poisoning should you go to the ER and then be turned away because they're like well you drank so you consented to the possibility of alcohol poisoning and we have restricted your access to medical care because you consented to the possibility of of course but again as we've pointed out the issue of abortion is not the issue of abortion is does not merely concern the mother it concerns this other person who who you've admitted as a human being so I think a more apt
• 93:30 - 94:00 analogy would be if I if I go out to the bar right and I wake up and I've got this headache and my kid just won't stop crying you know this kid and he cries he cries and he cries and but I got this throbbing headache and so I say you know I got to kill my kid I got to kill my kid to shut him up cuz he's crying too much and it's really ah my body and my head is just throbbing and I'm suffering and it's just going to make me feel a lot better if I kill my little baby who by the way is exactly as sentient well exactly as sentient per I'll even go
• 94:00 - 94:30 further conscious self-aware as the little baby in the womb okay it's not it is of course it it's not of course it is well you you haven't asked me how old my kid is it doesn't matter if they are a born child who is autonomous they are not equal to a fetus oh my goodness what do you think what do you think little babies are like if you think they're autonomous so you are confusing biolog iCal autonomy with functional autonomy do would you like me to define those for you oh please do yes so biological autonomy is when your
• 94:30 - 95:00 bodily system can support itself your organs can support itself and you do not need to be connected to another person biologically for your body systems to fun so maybe like a baby in in the womb at 25 weeks sure when abortions do not happen then when it comes abortions that do happen then are largely because of medical conditions and so that work they don't happen then or do happen then but they do not happen often then there are like less than 1% of abortions happen and yet for some reason states in
• 95:00 - 95:30 America like New York are changing their laws in a hurry to permit abortion up until the moment of birth abortion does not happen up until the moment of birth that would be that would be an induction of labor but if but Bronte they did change the law in New York such that and they actually changed the penal code such that abortion is permitted in the state of New York up until the moment of birth that happened that is a misrepresentation of the law but if you the penal code such that if you kill a pregnant woman it's no longer double homicide they could not more clearly
• 95:30 - 96:00 point out they could not more clearly highlight through the statute that abortion is permissible at any point in pregnancy up until the moment of birth see it seems that you consistently want to demonize women and you want to feel as though pregnant just describing the law in New York no you it but when you describe abortions happening right up until the moment of birth you are describing someone who has carried this fetus for likely you know 9 months 40 weeks what whatever it may be and you are acting as though those people are completely unaware of the situation they
• 96:00 - 96:30 find themselves in and usually people who are at that point in their pregnancy have decorated the nursery have picked out a name have went to prenatal appointments things like that and so for you to try to say that women are wanting abortions right up until the moment of birth you are demonizing them and you are saying just describing their behavior but women aren't doing that that is not something that happens it's not something that so then why do they keep changing the law in all of these liberal states they're changing the law to protect women and protect women's access because there's also a lot of
• 96:30 - 97:00 these laws that are trying to criminalize women for things like miscarriages and so rewriting these laws that all of that is protected and and uh especially because of the doe decision people don't realize that the roie way decision was really two cases row and do right and do creates this this right that protects uh women's ability to have abortions for psychological reason reasons for emotional reasons uh practically until the very end and so uh that already exists that was already
• 97:00 - 97:30 protected in New York there was no risk whatsoever in New York uh that abortion was going to be criminalized or miscarriages were going to be criminalized or whatever other propaganda comes out so if you're telling me that abortions do not happen late term why would multiple liberal Governors and state legislatur change the law to permit abortion up until the moment of birth I'm not saying that I agree with those laws but I also believe from what I've read as well that a lot
• 97:30 - 98:00 of those the way that you're describing it as a misrepresentation of the purpose of the law but I'm also not saying that I personally agree with those laws if that is what they State oh good well that's good why do you disagree with them well because as I've said numerous times I'm prioritizing the needs of the pregnant person and 91% but if you're going to prioritize the needs of the pregnant person surely they should have the the greatest uh window possible to have abortion which would which would be up until the moment of birth New York I I don't believe so because I believe if you reached that late term in the you
• 98:00 - 98:30 know in the pregnancy then you know at that point then the fetus is somewhat auton it has the ability to be viable and autonomous and that is when their life can and should be um you know weighed heavier so post viability you think abortion should be illegal um with the exception of of you know medical concerns really well by medical concerns do you include you know emotional distress or do you mean real serious medical risks to the um I mean not to
• 98:30 - 99:00 Discount Medical or mental concerns because those can be serious but primarily physical wow so you you would support a post viability abortion Bear yes great oh that's that's that's progress with the exception of of you know medical and protecting medical providers based on certain scenari so post post viability okay so then I guess I have to ask why why is viability so important why is Independence so important because you know a baby who's born newborn baby
• 99:00 - 99:30 can't do a damn thing you leave the baby outside or even inside for 72 hours the kid's going to die right that's fun that's functional autonomy versus biological practically it's the same thing it's not biological and no biological autonomy and functional autonomy are two very different things but they're distinct but practically speaking they're the same thing because if you leave the baby who you say is biologically autonomous if you leave that baby alone to his autonomous self for let's say 5 days even that baby is
• 99:30 - 100:00 going to die that baby has no control over himself or his surroundings at all because they La functional autonomy so it's really a distinction without a difference no but the the difference is anyone can provide food and shelter to that infant where only the singular pregnant person can provide the womb for the for the fetus that is where that is where and you can surrender your parental rights you we cannot force someone to be a parent they can give up
• 100:00 - 100:30 those parental rights and that is the same thing in pregnancy because you cannot force someone to use their body and use their time in a way that they do not agree with do you think do you think parents of of children who are 5 years old should be able to just renounce them and say go away pronounce their parental obligations I mean if they're incapable of providing a safe home if they're capable and they just don't want to be a parent it's just their consent if they're not but if they're not mentally willing and capable then they're the not
• 100:30 - 101:00 saying capable though let's say that they are totally capable it's some rich lawyer with a nice house in the suburbs two cars nice dinner every night they just don't want to be parents anymore you think they ought to have the right to renounce their Parenthood it that seems like that would be better for the child I I I would no but I wouldn't want the child to grow up in a home where they're unwanted and resented so yeah I think they should be able to give up their parental rights because that doesn't seem like an appropriate environment for that child well if you're saying a Child Protective
• 101:00 - 101:30 Services should go in and take the kids away maybe there's an argument for that but I just I I guess it's just this right part that you keep because you keep coming down to consent and rights if you're saying that a parent of sound mind really has the right to abandon his own children that seems crazy to me it's prioritizing the wellness of the child I I would never want a child to grow up in a home where they're resented and abused because their parent isn't willing to take care of them that that's why should we force a child to to stay in that envir talking
• 101:30 - 102:00 about what is prudentially best for the child I'm I'm really focused on that's not that's not what we're prioritizing the needs well not it's just not the topic of discussion what I'm asking about is the rights you're saying a parent has a right to renounce his or her child again if it is prioritizing the wellbeing of the child I think that the what if it's not what if it's worse for the child what if child staying in abusive home no I didn't say it's abusive why a neglectful home I'm not saying it's neglectful I'm I'm telling you all things being equal this guy this
• 102:00 - 102:30 nice guy and his wife you know good jobs good money nice house they take care of the kid just fine they just don't want to do it anymore and they'll do it if they have to but they just don't want to and it'd be a little easier if they could renounce the child I I'm I'm really focusing on this question of Rights because I think that's where the abortion argument really starts to unravel you're saying they have a right to do that again prioritizing the well-being of the child if they are in an environment in which they are unwanted then that is not an appropriate
• 102:30 - 103:00 environment for them and I believe that if a parent is unwilling to care for that child appropriately and I just think you're not accepting the no I just think that you continuously want to ignore the well-being of people that we share Society with you whenever whenever I right whenever I bring up the well-being of people it seems like you like that's not the discuss I want to brush this off because keep rights too and then when I when I focus on rights you shift to wellbeing and then when I focus on
• 103:00 - 103:30 wellbeing you shift to rights and so I think you're trying to evade top no no because they're intermingled right our rights are our rights protect our well-being and our our rights basically have a large effect on our well-being so they are not two exclusive things we decide what our rights are depending on the way that they affect our health and our well-being and our mentalities we decide what our rights are as as a society so where do you think rights come from this might help me to understand your view on abortion where do you think rights come from well it
• 103:30 - 104:00 depends on what kind of Rights you're talking about because in a society we like our our government is a system designed to protect our rights that is that is the purpose right that is the purpose of so where do so the government protects our rights so where do those rights come from I mean I think it's a convoluted question because essentially if if we were cavemen we wouldn't necessarily decide that we had I don't know I thinken were a lot smarter than we give them credit for oh the only thing we know about cavemen is that they painted on the walls the only thing we know about Caven is that they
• 104:00 - 104:30 were artists so I think they probably had a pretty pretty good intuition of these things right but I mean our rights don't necessarily come from anywhere aside from our own analysis of our Human Experience oh so then we don't really have any rights at all the rights that we have decided on based of the analysis of our human experience we have decided that these are the rights that prioritize the health and well-being of society and these are the things that we need to protect in order to prioritize the health and wellbe of societ that my my rights are just whatever I say my
• 104:30 - 105:00 rights are no our rights are what our society has decided on on a large spectrum and there's when we look at okay well then our society on a large Spectrum has just decided that abortion uh is not a is not a right and in about half the country now abortion is ex severely restricted if not outright illegal and so that's those are our rights and there's no arguing with it so again 61% of Americans which is the major no I'm talking about the Supreme Court and the legislatur right but that's they that's how our government our government not conducted by pure and
• 105:00 - 105:30 that was stacked corrupt corruptly when I talk when I talk about society when I talk about Society I talk about both society as a general sense and then society as also the experts as it pertains to that right in particular so when we talk about 61% of Americans according to the Pew Research Center agree let me finish agree with the ability to access abortion in all or most cases and 95% of OBGYN said regardless of their personal feelings
• 105:30 - 106:00 they would help a patient access abortion so that is what I mean by coming to a consensus as a society about what is a right that should be protected and both society as a whole and the um Society or the group of experts largely as a whole has decided that this is a right that should be protected but so so I think you're ignoring the way that our society is actually governed the Civil Authority in our society has decided that there is no right to abortion that just happened the Supreme Court just decided that which is in keeping with
• 106:00 - 106:30 the longer jurist Prudence throughout the United States and England and elsewhere in Civilization and so that that was how the actual civil Authority in our society that governs us determined we would live and uh so then I I would say if that's your understanding where rights come from you should accept those rights but then you respond to that and say no that's actually that doesn't matter what the Civil author already says through our self-government because of this one Pew research survey and because of the Trade Organization for the Obstetricians so no
• 106:30 - 107:00 because who is the we and we decide our rights as I've said as I've said pregnancy is a medical condition and abortion is a medical procedure and so when I talk about the experts and when I talk about people who should be deciding these things so our rights come from the experts it comes from society as a whole in addition to the experts and society as a whole is typically Guided by experts but society as a whole well what what represents society as a whole is it the Civil Authority or is it no it's not no because the government is meant to
• 107:00 - 107:30 serve society and if Society decides that something should be protected as they L their representatives and in self-government the representatives pass new laws and appoint different judges and the judges make rulings about statutory and constitutional interpretation and in this case they've said there's no right to abortion but as I've said the legislation is not appropriately representing the need and desires of the people how could you say that because 61% of Americans believe that abortion should be protected so you're saying that the way that the people in the our self-government
• 107:30 - 108:00 Express their will is through a pure research survey not through our elected representatives at The Ballot Box on Election Day but through some survey from this one no our desires are represented by surveys but we have abysmal voter turnout here in the US and so what is represented in our legislation isn't necessarily representing the desires of the people it should but it doesn't but you so I don't think that our rights come from uh come primarily
• 108:00 - 108:30 from just what we all sort of agree upon but even even if I did you realize how absurd this sounds you're saying that our system of self-government where we go to the polls and we elect our representative the representatives they're there to represent us imperfectly as a fallen world might do but that's what they do there you're you're saying that that is is not the way to understand the will of the people but just like one survey of who knows
• 108:30 - 109:00 usually these are a thousand to 2,000 people that is the expression of the will of the people even when other surveys is contradicted that seems a little silly right you're saying our rights come not from the Civil Authority but from the Pew Research Center that seems a little silly doesn't it no it it is very clear as of you know recently that our representatives are not properly representing the will of the people and like I said we have abysmal voter turnout by the way who who controls the government in what way right now I mean
• 109:00 - 109:30 who has Unified Government today a lot of money controls our government which party controls government right now I think the Senate is the Democrats our presidency is a Democrat and then I believe the house went to the Republicans or it hasn't been called yet I haven't well the the Republicans will take the house in January when they're sworn into office but today we have a Unified Government run by the Democrats and so when you say that our government is not adequately representing the people I agree with you entirely but uh
• 109:30 - 110:00 yeah but we also have we also have a filibuster which is essentially you know kneecapping our ability to pass proper legislation that is the will of the people but the but the representatives of the people agreed to have the filibuster in the first place right and that is a point of contention right now that should be I'm I'm just saying the filibuster itself was an expression of the popular will in the self but it's not right now and it should abolished according they can abolish it if they want to but it just hasn't been done yet by either party correct right because and disagree because the polit you might
• 110:00 - 110:30 disagree with it but the politicians do not abolish it because presumably they believe it's in their electoral interest not to abolish it because they are accountable to the voters and so regardless of what you think about the filibuster nevertheless if you accept the premise of self-government Republican government at all that expresses the will of the people right well also we live right now in a binary political system in the United States which our political Spectrum as a whole of society doesn't exist in a binary nothing exists in a binary and so when
• 110:30 - 111:00 we only have one of two options it's not going to ACC accurately represent the desires of the people which is a big problem in our political system do you call yourself a Democrat no you're not what do you call yourself I'm more of a leftist you you find the Democrats are a little too weak uh financially yeah I yeah I don't agree with all that Democrats do but I believe it was Obama who said that voting um is not marriage it is uh public transportation you aren't going to find the one but you take the one that is getting you closest to your
• 111:00 - 111:30 desired destination and for me that is the Democrats and our binary system you're not a liberal you're a leftist I'm a leftist yeah you're a feminist yes you know I find myself I don't know maybe I'm going crazy in my old age but I'm I find myself agreeing with the radical feminists more and more than I do with the leftists or I'm sorry more and more than I do with the Liberals okay elaborate on that for me well there was a great clip that was going around of Katherine McKinnon are you familiar with her no I don't think so Katherine McKinnon wonderful great radical feminist and uh it was her debating some
• 111:30 - 112:00 conservative over porn and uh she made this point she said you know you conservatives some of you conservatives are tolerant of porn you think porn is no big deal and obviously since the Internet it's exploded everywhere and caused a lot of problems uh and she says but you know imagine if you were in your apartment and you heard some guy knocking a woman around all every single wall abusing some woman and and what would you do you I hope you'd go over to the apartment try to stop it I hope you'd call the cops but that's what
• 112:00 - 112:30 you're doing when you when you're watching porn and this weak conservative he said well you know but people have a right to look at whatever smut they want and she said what are you talking about you know that's completely insane and uh the the conservative said to her well well don't you agree with that all these free principles of just watching whatever you want she said no because I'm not a liberal I'm a feminist I'm not a liberal I thought oh guess I guess maybe I'm a feminist too who knew yeah I mean are you would you describe yourself as uh she called herself sex negative
• 112:30 - 113:00 you know that's the kind of anti-porn feminists are you the anti-porn feminist or the pro porn feminist yeah because uh largely are the pornographic industry is a huge issue as far as perpetuating and um supporting sex trafficking and human trafficking and so no yeah I'm not a supporter of the porn industry as a whole now as far as like agree on yeah and as far as like sexual Liberation and the ability to you know consciously and responsibly consume porn I'm not
• 113:00 - 113:30 necessarily opposed to that but the large porn industry as a whole as it supports uh sex trafficking and is largely unregulated I am yeah and is it is it only the trafficking that bothers you or is it the women who are involved in porn come from bad backgrounds almost all the time and usually neglectful and abusive backgrounds and they're very vulnerable and they're completely exploited and they're paid pennies and they're treated literally like meat and then they're thrown out 2 years later and
• 113:30 - 114:00 it's just the whole thing so ghastly and it's not uh that's not a matter of trafficking exactly but it's still an exploitation yeah I agos that but then you then you just said that you don't mind people watching porn in certain circumstances right if if the industry was better regulated people were paid living wages there wasn't this whole situation where people feel you know pressured or forced into that industry based off of certain life experiences or certain C certain circumstances 100% of the time right well not not necessarily 100% I do feel like people can
• 114:00 - 114:30 consensually and responsibly um you know par me I mean that's not necessarily what happens like I see and I think that that is sort of dehumanizing and I think that is dehumanizing right but that's also removing the consent aspect because there are a lot of people who do do sex work responsibly and they do so of their own valtion oh so you so before you were sounding sex negative like the radical feminists now you're sounding sex positive like the Liberals well I am sex
• 114:30 - 115:00 positive but I mean it depends all right never mind I thought we agreed on one thing finally but okay I mean we agree that we both do not like the porn industry as a whole but you wouldn't would you ban it uh the porn industry yeah I mean frankly according to the law it already sort of is largely banned it's just a few Court decisions kind of screwed that up but yeah I mean I think that things like only fans should stay legal when they are run I think that if it is run by the worker themselves and it is they deciding to do something of their own valtion then I'm not
• 115:00 - 115:30 necessarily opposed to that but I do think that the porn industry should be um banned or regulated as a you know as a whole well that's good so people should not be permitted to look at PornHub for instance that's what you're saying yeah I think PornHub should be shut down because a lot of it is um you know unregulated and kind of per there's a lot of things on there too that perpetuate abuse that perpetuate um you know radicalist ideas of you know objectifying women um and so that yeah I definitely not so does does that not
• 115:30 - 116:00 undercut a little bit of your argument about bodily autonomy and doing what you want you know in your own bedroom with the blinds closed I mean if if a guy wants to go into his bedroom and pull up some disgusting pornography and uh do whatever with his own body you know sex with someone you love as Woody Allen described it uh is that not a matter of his personal bodily autonomy that he allegedly has a right to I believe he has the right to do that but like I said it it doesn't
• 116:00 - 116:30 have to it doesn't have to be done through PornHub there are responsible and worker run but what if he really likes PornHub what if that's his that's his favorite one well we don't have to protect his right to access PornHub no I don't believe we should no that's good all right that's something but only fans you think is okay yeah I think only fans is okay because like I said it is run by the workers themselves and they are exploited by an industry and they aren't forced into certain things don't you think that pornography intrinsically is
• 116:30 - 117:00 exploitative and degrading I guess that's my problem with it there are other problems too it's not just the consent is what I'm saying because you seem to think that the only moral Criterion that matters is consent if you consent to do it then it's fine and dandy but I think there are plenty of things that you can consent to do that are not good and are degrading and feed your base IST passions and enslave you and uh should be illegal and are illegal even today in some cases yeah elaborate
• 117:00 - 117:30 on that well like drugs would be an example right I don't think you have a right to do drugs but I don't think you have a right to do all sorts of things you know I don't think people should have a right to cheat on their wives maybe a a married man consents to sleep with his secretary or something and the secretary consents I think that should be illegal and it was illegal for a lot of American History I don't think you ought to have a right to that I don't think that if you uh are under the delusion if you're a man and you're under the delusion that you're a woman that you have a right to chop your Healthy genitals off any more than you that you would have a right to
• 117:30 - 118:00 walk into a doctor's office and say Doc I identify as a quadriplegic and the doc says man you got problems you know you need to go see a psychologist you know I'm not going to chop your limbs off but then that same man walks into a doctor's office he says doc I'm a woman that doc says wow oh my gosh that's so brave and wonderful you're a stunning beautiful woman let's get you on to the operating table and cut off the Family Jewels that seems to me Preposterous I don't think anyone has a right to that I I guess ultimately I'm saying I don't think you have a right to wrong well what we
• 118:00 - 118:30 Define as wrong is different between you and I because I do agree in providing gender affirming care to people because when you are in a body that doesn't feel right to you and you do not identify as the gender that people perceive you as that can have psychological consequences and again when we look at Medical EXP experts who study this and provide this care they agree that gender affirming care is essential in order to prioritize the needs of these patients what about
• 118:30 - 119:00 Dr Paul McHugh I don't know so Dr Paul McHugh was a doctor at uh John's Hopkins and was the pioneer of the gender transition surgery and was the head of their gender clinic and uh so he pioneered the whole thing then he found after a few years that it wasn't improving psychological outcomes he didn't find that it was damaging psychological outcomes in most cases but it just wasn't really doing anything and it wasn't helping and so if it wasn't helping he he shut it down and so he's
• 119:00 - 119:30 not only one figure in the transgender Care Medical Community whatever I mean he's he's a preeminent figure in it and he says that it's awful and we should stop the surgeries so does his expert opinion color your views at all no so in medicine we are taught something called paternalism is something that we should avoid and paternalism is essentially putting your own personal views into the health care of other people so if you believe that a patient is going to regret this decision then you are going
• 119:30 - 120:00 to you know prohibit their access to this and as medical practitioners as Physicians like we are taught to avoid paternalism and acting paternalistically is unethical so by that's an interesting use of the word paternalism so by that you mean just having opinions and acting on them no no it is a specific terminology in medical ethics it is not prohibiting your patient's access to Medical Care based off you would give advice right say I don't think you should chop your genitals off or I don't think you should have an abortion see
• 120:00 - 120:30 and that is putting your that is putting your personal opinion that is unrelated to medical studies and unrelated to proper psycholog how why would you hold a personal opinion that is completely out of step with reality would you I mean I I just fail to understand this distinction between a personal opinion and say public opinion professional opinion yeah I don't see if if if they disagree the professional opinion that you're supposed to hold and your personal opinion and if they're
• 120:30 - 121:00 contradictory only one of them can be true so if if the professional opinion is true then why do you hold your mistaken personal opinion and if your personal opinion is true then why would you give a damn what some lunatic who's telling you to perform a labotomy has to say so a per when it comes to medical practice your personal opinion is colored by your own personal experience where your professional opinion is influenced by evidence and training and is your is your personal opinion not
• 121:00 - 121:30 influenced by your faculties of reason and your moral conscience and your ability to perceive reality true but my moral conscience and my ability to perceive reality is based off of my own personal reality and my personal reality differs from someone else's hold on I thought I thought the purpose of reason and perception is to ask assertain objective reality it's not like the imagination where you're just concocting your own fantasies right so what you're telling me then is that your faculties
• 121:30 - 122:00 of reason and moral conscience are not reliable and they can have nothing to say about objective reality so then I have to ask why should I care what you think about anything well it depends on what you're asking me my opinion on because again there's a difference between personal and professional opinions because when professional opinions especially in medical practice are colored by statistics and training that is going to supersede my personal opinion when it comes to offering someone medical advice so you are you saying you simultaneously hold two opinions at the same time or
• 122:00 - 122:30 are you saying that you just defer to the board of Obstetricians on every question I'm saying that I understand as a medical professional that I need to avoid paternalism and that although my personal opinion and my personal experience and my uh perception of life based off of you know my own world view isn't going to be completely accurate when it comes to the life experience of
• 122:30 - 123:00 a patient sitting in my exam room so what if it's it's 1950 you're you've just graduated medical school you're doing your residency and the uh the fancy people in the lab coat say all right Bronte here's your first assignment you're going to perform a labotomy on this crazy lady and the crazy lady comes in and you say you know I think it's probably a bad idea to perform this labotomy I think scrambling up poor women's Brains is not not good uh but the consensus medical opinion the professional opinion disagrees with my
• 123:00 - 123:30 personal opinion here would you just put your personal opinion and your own view from your reason and your conscience aside and scramble up the poor woman's brains so does the woman is she wanting this procedure well she's a bit crazy isn't she but maybe she maybe she says she wants it maybe one day she says she wants it another day she says she doesn't want it I mean with any kind of psychological treatment there was a lot of ambiguity so in this sort of situation but let's say let's say that she does want it so in this situation we have we have the privilege of you know perspective right we in the 1950s you
• 123:30 - 124:00 don't have the privilege of that kind of perspective so we understand that you know medically lobotomies are not appropriate but in the ' 50s we are working with the evidence that we have at the time and if the patient is wanting the procedure and the evidence and studies at the time support that procedure then sure you would move you would perform the labotomy even if you're faculties of Reas because it was it was controversial at the time just as abortion and transgender surgery are controversial now and so you're saying even if you CU it's not only that we
• 124:00 - 124:30 learned in for foresight you know or rather in uh retrospectively oh gosh can you imagine we did these lobotomies wow everyone agreed to do them and then all of a sudden we all realized it was wrong no it was it was very controversial at the time but the lab coat people said go do them so I think the analogy is quite apt to to abortion and to transgenderism and let's say you know I disagree with you well let's just go to the labotomy thing then you know at the time as did many many people in the medical profession that labotomy are really spooky and weird and not good and you
• 124:30 - 125:00 really disagree with it but you're there there's the patient the docs are telling you to perform the labotomy do you really put your own moral conscience aside and your own your own rational thought aside and you just do what the doctors tell you to do I mean not necessarily no oh okay good right and I also don't believe that lobotomies are you know analogous to gender affirming care and when we are talking about because gender affirming care is not necessarily controversial in the medical field where la la well the guy who
• 125:00 - 125:30 invented it says that it's terrible no as as you said as you said it might not have improved their psych you know their mental state but it also didn't necessarily damage it yeah him him personally but on the whole He camps against it it's convenient that you choose this one person who campaigns against it well he happens Pioneer of it well he might have been one of the first to do it but in the medical field it is shown that providing gender affirming care is beneficial to the patients when done
• 125:30 - 126:00 with evidence-based medicine and appropriately in the medical field it was shown that labotomy were really good for crazy ladies and it was shown with evidence and studies and papers and very serious men in Horn rmed classes and lab coats see and I just feel like this line of questioning is inherently transphobic and when you act as though people who have you know gender dysphoria or B dismorphia or whatever it may be when you act as though their situation is equivalent to someone in the 50s needing
• 126:00 - 126:30 or wanting a labotomy you are perpetuating this idea that their life experience and their opinions about their own bodies is inappropriate and wrong Bronte I just think I think your attacks on labotomy are extraordinarily misogynistic first of all and I think they deny the science and the scientific consensus and they're frankly ignorant because all of the educated people with all the power they say that lobotomies are really really good and they're for women and they're they're to make women feel better these poor women are dealing with anxiety hysteria actually is what
• 126:30 - 127:00 what we would have called it then and and you're denying them care that will ease their suffering and I just think it's really awful I didn't say that I would deny them that care if the patient is consenting to this procedure and the evidence and and the evidence and the consensus of the medical field as a whole is you know um support ing this kind of procedure then I would go forward with it so you would perform the labotomy I'm not going to say that I would perform you just said you would perform the labotomy I would perform a
• 127:00 - 127:30 previously you said you wouldn't and then before that you said you would I would perform a procedure if the evidence supported it and the patient consented to it that is that is it and in the 1950s the evidence supported labotomy I don't know enough about labotomy in the ' 50s in order to give you an accurate response to that question okay all right so seems to me that uh you your deferral away from moral conscience your your admission that your moral conscience and your faculties of Reason are purely subjective solipsistic even
• 127:30 - 128:00 they only pertain to your own body and your own possibly diluted view of the world and so that's why you have to uh defer to The Experts and the you know the people in the lab coats and uh those people are the ones who have the the ability to make our rights anyway our rights in fact come from the Academy of Obstetricians or whatever and because of all of that if the Medical Science supported it and if the patient uh consented to it you would perform the labotomy you would perform the gender
• 128:00 - 128:30 affirming uh surgery on the men who think that they're women and you would perform the abortion I just say humbly and respectfully Bronte it should give you pause if you're on the side of the lobotomies I am on the side of gender affirming care and reproductive healthare yeah and lobotomies not necessarily lobotomies no cuz those aren't analogous to gender affirming care if you want to cuz it seems like you are intent to use manipulative and emotional language in order to because
• 128:30 - 129:00 if you need to refer to labotomy in order to make your point that me my point is that the scientists often get things dramatically including in the medical field we should be able to have a conversation about gender affirming care and abortion without bringing in a controversial procedure from the 50s if you're if no we don't have to no if you are not able to just discuss gender affirming care and just discuss abortion without bringing in you know manipulative language and outdated
• 129:00 - 129:30 procedures then you're not able to appropriately discuss this topic proced because your your defense of well now transgenderism but also abortion is based on the authority of the of and The credibility of the medical authorities and so I have to demonstrate to you that those medical authorities don't have all that much credibility especially on sort of bizarre and controversial matters because historically they don't have a great track record and that's why I'm going into the not too distant past by
• 129:30 - 130:00 the way it's not like I'm going back to uh leeches and bleedings and all sorts of bizarre medical practices that were accepted by the experts for all of human history I'm going back to a very very recent example and showing you that those those experts in the lab coats that you are deferring to even for the question of Rights itself are very frequently wrong but in this case we have shown that gender affirming care is beneficial to patients who have gender dysphoria we haven't though of the surgery says it isn't currently with the
• 130:00 - 130:30 evidence that we have right now we are showing that it is medically responsible to provide patients with all the information and all of the access to health care that can benefit them in their medical care and so that is the topic at hand is it not is it not discussing people who exist in a body that they don't feel comfortable in and modern medicine has the ab ability to help them address that issue Bronte when you say exist in a body or you say they find themselves in a body who do you think they
• 130:30 - 131:00 are what does that mean exist in a body our fellow citizens that we share the society with but who is you're you're saying that they are distinct from their body yes so you you are not your body no I what are you I believe that I'm a soul with a body but you you are the soul and your body is just a it's the physical manifestation body's a costume oh the body is the physical manifestation
• 131:00 - 131:30 that's different well I agree with that I think that the body is a symbol of the soul I think that the soul is a substantial form of the body we agree on that but then that means that the soul and the body are linked right but they're not the same but they're linked inextricably if you agree as we just said that that the body is actually a symbol of the Soul then you you don't just go about trading out the body the body is not something merely to be discarded the body is in fact part of you to say I have a body is an incoherent statement according to what you've just agreed to because you would
• 131:30 - 132:00 say I am a body and I am a soul and I'm this the the technical term for it is hylomorphic being that is body and soul inextricably linked on this earth right but that doesn't mean that my mentality and my soul is accurately represented by the body that I present to the world so if you find a discrepancy between your metaphysical per perception of yourself and the physical representation which you acknowledge is tied inextricably to your soul why do you have to mutilate the body wouldn't it be a little easier
• 132:00 - 132:30 just to change your mind and recognize that your perception of yourself is a little bit wrong if you're if you if you're you know you're a woman I think you're very you know clearly a woman and if you said one day I'm a man well rather than my saying oh well good go chop your body up shouldn't I just say no you're not you're a woman and you're just uh misperceiving yourself and you need to or misconceiving yourself and you need to uh get your mind right well you are then you would be denying what I am telling you is my life experience because you would be wrong according to
• 132:30 - 133:00 you but you can't tell someone that their life experience is wrong no I can tell I can tell people that their statements about reality are wrong so why do you see the world in such a binary why do you think that we are men and women and there is no Spectrum in between oh well because I have eyes and uh and reason so I can see you're a woman all all evidence shows that you're a woman what makes me a woman well I haven't you know I'm a married man so I
• 133:00 - 133:30 I don't have too much what what would in abstract what would what would you quantify sex to you uh well uh it would be it would involve uh your bodily features it would involve your chromosomes it would involve your soul it would involve uh it would mean that you're not a man it would mean that you're complimentary to a man and not identical with a man so are you aware that medically your genitalia your
• 133:30 - 134:00 hormones and your chromosomes do not always align with a particular sex there are multiple medical conditions in which your chromosomes your hormones and your genitalia do not match and do not fit into this binary there could be there could be ambiguity of course right and so what I'm saying is naturally sex is a spectrum and yes no yes it is well there's such a thing as a lier are you familiar with a liger like a lion tiger it's a it's a hybrid of a lion and a
• 134:00 - 134:30 tiger yeah but if we say that there are some ligers not very many but there's some ligers this would not deny that there is a categorical distinction between lions and tigers and the same thing would be true you you mentioned a chromosomal abnormality let's let's say Turner syndrome Turner syndrome is where you have One X chromosome right not not an XY not an XX we have one X well if why don't we talk about Klein felter then because that's that's when you have I think two x's and a y yeah sure sure I mean you could talk about any of these chromosomal or or genital abnormalities
• 134:30 - 135:00 that's there can there can be certain ambiguities but in in that expression it's pretty easy to categorize I mean I I mentioned Turner syndrome because it's so easy to categorize people who have Turner syndrome as women and uh but but in the others too even when there's more ambiguity you you can categorize these things and and so then we talk about this distinction between sex and gender and people say well sex and gender are different so you might be a woman but your gender by which people really I
• 135:00 - 135:30 think mean your soul I think you're using the more precise language there uh your soul might be the soul of a man say or something like that but I I just don't see how that would be true if your soul and body really are linked and also if it were true then why is it that we would say that you then have a right to mutilate your body wouldn't we then say you have an obligation to express your gender in accord with your sex well body modification is an entire industry I can get tattoos I can get drug Industries too yeah yeah but that has nothing
• 135:30 - 136:00 that's not the same porn and drugs is not the same as gender affirming care and it seems like you when cons they're not the same but they're all bad I mean to you but drug sure like porn and drugs obviously have like that is a negative industry but when you compare them to something like gender affirming care you are coloring gender affirming care I'm just saying that that that uh the the sex surgeries where you chop off the boys you know Family Jewels that that's also bad see and where I stand on it is
• 136:00 - 136:30 I think that acceptance and tolerance and respect for people who are different from you is inherent in being a compassionate moral being and I don't believe that I get to tell someone that they are wrong based off of my interpretation of their life experience right so so to get us back I think to the top I I sincerely believe that abortion is evil uh because it is as you describe uh ending the life of a human being and uh
• 136:30 - 137:00 so that's what I believe and I sincerely believe that abortion should be illegal throughout the United States and and I really would just request that you not impose your liberal beliefs on me and force me to uh to surrender my political views in a self-government for goodness sake and force me to live in a society where women are permitted to kill their children I would just ask you to respect and include and be welcoming and
• 137:00 - 137:30 tolerant of of My Views and identity my identity as the correct person in this debate so I respect your opinion as it pertains to your body and your life that is the entire point of being pro-choice is I am not saying that you or your wife or whoever should get an abortion I'm not forcing you to get an abortion get AB right I very clearly and being pro-choice means that I respect everyone's ability to decide what is best for their body and for their life
• 137:30 - 138:00 and it is their body and their life and whether physically financially or mentally they are incapable or unwilling to endure pregnancy and labor and I hope every pregnant person who's watching this can try to understand if they had to endure that unwanted and unsupported how terrifying and traumatizing that would be and and you consistently Center the fetus and I just want to say that I consistently Center the pregnant person I respect I respect women I respect women and their ability and their
• 138:00 - 138:30 knowledge about their own body and their own lives and I want to protect their right to access health care what if they believe that their baby is not a that the fetus is not a human being do you respect that belief I mean well that would be medically inaccurate so you don't respect their knowledge I mean I respect their belief but it doesn't make it correct you res you respect mistaken beliefs incorrect beliefs I mean if it doesn't impose on my ability to Access healthcare and it doesn't refect my life
• 138:30 - 139:00 individually then they can think whatever they want but you respect it I respect their right to have that opinion but just not to act on it in public I mean I don't understand what you mean by that well you're saying you you respect these views that are wrong but we we live in a self-government right we live in a republic so the government that we get at least in theory is going to reflect what people believe and so what you keep coming back to in these questions of transgenderism and in questions of people mistakenly
• 139:00 - 139:30 believing that the human in their body is not a human being you keep saying well I just respect your wrong you're you're entitled to your wrong beliefs you can but you know those wrong beliefs in a self-government end up becoming law but they must be evidence-based and medically accurate and medically appropriate and as I oh so you only respect the beliefs if they're medically accurate but but you just said you respected the woman's belief even I respect her right to have that belief she can have that belief if she chooses to have that belief as long as there's no consequence of it in society right but ideas do have consequences I mean it
• 139:30 - 140:00 depends yeah exactly like your ideas that you're pushing on your show do have dire consequences for pregnant people as the University of Colorado showed Banning abortion can increase maternal mortality by 24% and so pushing these medically inaccurate and emotionally manipulative views on your show and many others they do have impacts on living breathing people people and they will lead to more harm and more suffering of people's Mothers Daughters sisters of women in our society well you know because I'm a gentleman I I obviously
• 140:00 - 140:30 disagree with everything you just said but since I'm a gentleman I'll give you the last word Bronte and I will leave it there we know my position in the debate I am firmly opposed to uh abortion and uh the transgender surgeries and the mutilation and uh to lobotomies and my uh I guess my and opponents support those things and people can decide for themselves who is more reasonable I am I'm sincerely really impressed with you that you came out here and we're willing to come on the show and uh express your
• 140:30 - 141:00 point of view and I I really I wish more uh well I won't call you a liberal because you're a leftist but I I wish more leftists would do it so thank you Bronte for coming out where can people find you welcome they can find me uh at Bronte remic on Tik Tok and my website is be kind and curious.com all right be be kind and curious out there folks I'm Michael NOS see you next time n [Music]