Responding to Fr. James Martin on Homosexuality w/ Fr. Mike Schmitz

Summary

Fr. Mike Schmitz responds to Fr. James Martin's comments on homosexuality, highlighting possible contradictions with Church teachings. The discussion covers Fr. Martin's support for LGBTQ+ inclusion in the Church and addresses his interpretation of biblical scriptures in the context of historical passages on homosexuality. Fr. Mike and Matt Fradd critique Martin's arguments by emphasizing the importance of context when interpreting religious texts and stress the significance of openly discussing controversial topics within the Church community to prevent the dissemination of misleading teachings.

Highlights

• Fr. Mike Schmitz critiques Fr. James Martin's understanding of homosexuality within the Church 👀.
• The need for a nuanced approach to controversial religious topics is emphasized 🔍.
• Fr. Mike analyses biblical texts to address misconceptions around homosexuality in religious teachings 📜.
• The discussion calls for naming and critically addressing teachings that lead the Church astray 🗣️.
• Fr. Mike points out historical acceptance of homosexuality, contrasting it with Fr. Martin's claims regarding cultural context 🔄.

Key Takeaways

• Fr. Mike Schmitz stresses the need for contextual understanding when interpreting biblical texts 📚.
• Controversial teachings should be addressed to prevent spreading error in the Church community ❗.
• Fr. James Martin's approach to LGBTQ+ issues in the Church is both critiqued and acknowledged for its intention to build bridges 🌉.
• Historical context is crucial when discussing scriptural passages on homosexuality 🔍.
• Not addressing controversial topics might lead to misleading or harmful conclusions for the Church community 🛑.

Overview

In this engaging discussion, Fr. Mike Schmitz responds to Fr. James Martin's stance on homosexuality within the Catholic Church. The conversation, hosted by Matt Fradd, digs into Fr. Martin's assertions about same-sex relationships and the interpretation of biblical scriptures within their historical context. By comparing past cultural norms and religious teachings, Fr. Mike critically examines Fr. Martin’s arguments.

The interaction delineates the complexities involved in addressing controversial topics within the Church. Fr. Mike emphasizes the necessity for clear and contextual discourse, especially when teachings potentially contradict long-established Church doctrines. Matt Fradd and Fr. Mike argue for transparency and the importance of confronting public figures who might lead believers towards erroneous beliefs.

Throughout the discussion, Fr. Mike and Matt explore the delicate balance required when bridging sensitive topics, like LGBTQ+ inclusion in religious contexts. They affirm Fr. Martin's desire to connect with marginalized communities but stress the need for doctrinal fidelity. The dialogue reveals a critical examination of how historical texts are leveraged to support modern arguments and the imperative to thoroughly vet such correlations.

Chapters

• 00:00 - 00:30: Introduction and Context In this chapter, Father James Martin discusses controversial teachings related to same-sex relationships within the church. He highlights how certain actions, such as two people in a same-sex relationship kissing during the sign of peace, are perceived to contradict church teachings. Father Martin also comments on how doctrines are considered binding only if they are accepted by the church community, comparing this view on homosexuality to historic views on taking interest on money.
• 00:30 - 01:30: Critiquing Public Figures and Proof The chapter, titled 'Critiquing Public Figures and Proof', discusses the importance of distinguishing between different types of laws, such as Mosaic law and moral law, and highlights how understanding this distinction doesn't necessarily require theological expertise but rather a critical approach to learning and reflection. The speaker emphasizes the skill of speaking truth while maintaining likability, and the challenge most people face in balancing honesty with social acceptance. Additionally, there is a discussion on how some individuals may be liked but deceitful, while others speak truth but face dislike. The speaker seeks to help the listener find a balance without leading them into negative situations.
• 01:30 - 02:30: Understanding Historical Context This chapter explores the dilemma of whether or not to publicly name individuals who are leading others into significant wrongdoings, especially when one has a public platform. It discusses the responsibilities that come with such a platform and the importance of having proof before making accusations.
• 02:30 - 03:30: Leviticus and Cultural Context This chapter focuses on the cultural context of the Biblical book of Leviticus. It engages with critique on various religious figures such as Bishop Barron and his approach to philosophy and culture, and Father Martin's methods. The author discusses how these figures are engaged with culture in distinct ways and critiques are assessed uniquely based on the methods and engagement styles specific to each figure.
• 03:30 - 04:30: Contextualizing Biblical Teachings The chapter discusses the importance of building connections and understanding with communities that feel distanced from the Catholic Church. It acknowledges the difficulty of conveying nuanced theological ideas in a digital age where oversimplification is prevalent. The chapter critiques statements suggesting that God predetermined someone's nature, labeling such assertions as erroneous. The conversation highlights a need for careful, considerate discourse to address these complexities.
• 04:30 - 05:30: Silence and Implicit Agreements This chapter discusses the nuances of interpreting biblical references to homosexuality, emphasizing the importance of understanding these passages in their historical context. It references a quote by Father James Martin and a book titled 'Made for Love: Same-sex Attraction' to explore these themes.
• 05:30 - 06:30: Conclusion and Call to Action The chapter "Conclusion and Call to Action" reflects on the inspired nature of biblical texts, acknowledging that they were written in specific historical contexts. It highlights how certain biblical passages, such as those in Leviticus about homosexuality, bisexuality, slavery, clothing, and agricultural laws, are interpreted today with an understanding of their historical setting. The chapter encourages readers to contextualize these scriptures within the time they were written, rather than applying them directly to modern life.

Responding to Fr. James Martin on Homosexuality w/ Fr. Mike Schmitz Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 father James Martin yeah it seems very clearly to be teaching things contrary to the faith right saying that two people in the same sex relationship ought to be had a kiss at the sign of peace and saying I'm no theologian but you know something is only binding upon the faithful if we as a church accept it and so therefore homosexuality might just sort of be like taking money at interest and weighting it with things in
• 00:30 - 01:00 exodus which confusing the mosaic and the moral law right you don't need to be a bloody theologian to figure that out you just have to be able to go through seminary or if you haven't figured out yet to be criticized once about it ought to be enough okay so like you're very nice and you're very good at speaking the truth and having people like you most people aren't good at that listening some people are good at having to like them but they're speaking falsities or they speak the truth but people hate them mm-hmm you know so I don't want to lead you into a place
• 01:00 - 01:30 where you don't want to talk about people that you don't want to you know because you know but but at what point is it no longer acceptable for us not to call out people by name yeah especially those of us who have some modest platform if they are leading the church into grave sin yeah no I I think that there's if there is if that does happen I need to have proof and I need to be
• 01:30 - 02:00 able to point to a specific thing so say take any one of the people that has been named if I say well I'm a critic critic of Bishop Baron I'm a critical amoris I'm a critic of dr. Marshall or of father of Martin in what what sense he's right I'm not I would not critique Bishop Barron's approach of like philosophy and culture to engage culture in a really clear way yes I wouldn't critique father Martin's
• 02:00 - 02:30 desire to build bridges with a community that feels alienated and isolated from the Catholic Church like super good like this so if I'm gonna critique it I have to say when he said this though this isn't we knew nuance doesn't go viral right like me right we like sledgehammers it's problematic or in error so for example for someone to say God made someone a certain way that is Error yes that's not yeah yeah I'm gonna read something to
• 02:30 - 03:00 you yeah okay here's a direct quote from father James Martin and I bring this up because you wrote a book called I believe made no need for love sorry made it made for love yeah what's the subtitle Kathir Sheena same-sex attraction okay so it has to do with homosexuality so for that reason I want you to comment on this so this is a direct quote from him all these Bible passages people throw at you Leviticus Deuteronomy and even the stuff in the New Testament where Paul talks about it once or twice has to be understood in their historical context the Bible is
• 03:00 - 03:30 written in a particular time it's the inspired Word of God but it is written certainly in a particular time and in a particular historical context certainly in Old Testament times they didn't understand the phenomena of homosexuality and bisexuality I would say as we do today I'd also like to say that there's a lot of other stuff in Leviticus that we sort of understand in its historical context like what kind of slaves can we have whether or not we can wear certain kinds of clothes whether or not our crops can be next to one another we don't look at those passages in an a
• 03:30 - 04:00 historical way so why should we look at passages of homosexuality that way I'd also like to say that in his three-year public ministry Jesus says nothing about the topic all right so they go criticized that for me yeah well I mean it's such an interesting it's there's a way of speaking you can you can decline to criticize the element what's you into a corner it's okay the oh there's a way of speaking that's um when I was in college all my professors talked like that where it was
• 04:00 - 04:30 kind of this sense of I'm gonna begin by opening up what we know to be true in the sense of it's important to read the Bible in this historical context yep okay yeah absolutely and then opening it up further to saying therefore it means whatever I want it to mean or yeah that's essentially essentially that or it doesn't mean what I don't want it to mean and making kind of a not just an emotional appeal but to this kind of this sense of like because X therefore Y works like
• 04:30 - 05:00 well that's not that's not a one-to-one kind of a situation for example like the fabrics thing you can't mix fabrics in the Book of Leviticus therefore you also not in know you can therefore it's just the same thing it's all the same verses actually the historical context which which would be when it came to those kind of declarations in Leviticus regarding yeah your hair not being down your temples not being cut or not mixing
• 05:00 - 05:30 certain fabrics or not eating shellfish these kind of things those were all in the in the sections of Leviticus that had to deal with how the community itself lived when it came to the teachings on homosexuality it had to deal with all people's is they're so interesting fascinating when you actually get to the context is like let's actually take a deep dive you said you need to be historical I certainly contextualized let's do it let's do it in that sense what you have is some
• 05:30 - 06:00 rules that were specific to the Jewish people at the time in the Covenant these other declarations have to do with all peoples we even those people amongst whom the Jews are living and so it's like well that's a big difference and that's what you're pointing to so actually if we do this in deep dive then you have that the next step would be to try to address they didn't understand the cultural context and understand this like we do again let's look at the cultural context there has always been
• 06:00 - 06:30 homosexuality or homosexual acts in especially in those ancient cultures it was by and large accepted and not seen as any big deal greco-roman culture Socrates the writings of Plato you see it right and so you since you say ok so they lived in an even more kind of open / tolerant culture than we might have been up until the last decade so your critique falls flat there as well
• 06:30 - 07:00 now now extrapolate that to again that sense of but in the texts of a loving monogamous situation everything changes and that doesn't hold water either because Romans 1 doesn't talk in any way shape or form about whether two men are laying with each other two women lain with each other in the monogamous loving relationship you know it has to do with what is the what is the nature of sex what's it oriented
• 07:00 - 07:30 towards and what is the opposite of that I know it says misuse of that and then finally there's the argument from silence in other words exactly said to be important based on word count right yeah and Jesus didn't say any capital punishment was alive and well but a bunch in Jesus's day he doesn't say anything about capital punishment needs to be eradicated slavery was present Jesus didn't say anything about slavery being eradicated so does that mean
• 07:30 - 08:00 they're cycling right abortion contraception I mean he's endorsing those things because he didn't speak directly against them and Horsa Sarah Lee yes and it's a lot of times when someone doesn't speak against something in the scriptures it's because it's like what we all know yeah that's not the case yes it's like that's not even a point of contention yeah we've we all agree if we live in the Covenant then here's what we know sex is for we know what the marriage or relationships are oriented towards so we don't have to fight this does an excellent answer
• 08:00 - 08:30 yo thanks for watching you can watch the entire episode on YouTube if you want you can listen to it at the Matt fred show by subscribing on itunes or wherever yet listen to your podcasts and feel free to support me patreon.com slash Matt Fred