#57 | How To Manage Any Boss (Even Bad Ones) | Idris & Leon Jala

Summary

In this engaging episode of "The Game of Impossible," father and son duo Idris and Leon Jala explore the dynamics of managing difficult or even bad bosses. Drawing from Leon's 42 years of experience, they delve into different archetypes of bosses such as the Micromanager, the Ghost, the Volcano, the Credit Taker, and the Unaware. They engage in a lively discussion on real-life experiences, highlighting both the challenges and the potential positives of each archetype. Through captivating storytelling and insightful anecdotes, they provide listeners with practical strategies to handle each difficult boss type effectively.

Highlights

• Leon shares his positive spin on encountering different boss types, viewing them as learning tools. 📘
• The importance of a detailed 'three ft plan' to ease micromanagers is explained. 📋
• Automatic escalation processes force ghost bosses to engage with team issues. 👻
• Idris shares a minister's story that perfectly illustrates handling a volcano boss. 🚀
• Revealing how a structured approach and proper syndication can pacify bullies. 🤝
• Credit takers are addressed by setting up their orchestrational facade. 🎭
• Wrapping up with embracing the natural structure found in varied workplace individuals, making even soloists aware. 🎯

Key Takeaways

• Meeting different boss archetypes is a learning opportunity, not a curse! 🌟
• Implementing a 'three ft plan' can help manage micromanagers by establishing clear roles and reports. 📝
• Engage ghost bosses by setting up regular problem-solving sessions that require their involvement. 👻
• Handle volcano bosses by staying calm and using well-prepared facts and allies. 🌋
• Credit takers can be dealt with by framing them as the orchestrator, allowing the actual contributors to shine within the framework. 🎭
• Unaware bosses thrive with structured tasks that highlight linkages to other team roles. 🔗

Overview

Navigating the often tumultuous waters of workplace dynamics, Leon and Idris Jala offer strategies to manage all types of bosses—good, bad, and challenging. This episode of the "Game of Impossible" takes listeners through real conversations, challenges, and triumphs that arise when working alongside or under different boss archetypes. With humor and wisdom, they share not only how to deal with these bosses but also how to turn these experiences into positive growth opportunities.

Leon invites listeners to view difficult bosses through a lens of opportunity. Whether dealing with micromanagers or 'ghost' bosses, they present new strategies, like the 'three ft plan,' to strike a balance of control and personal contribution. The session unveils a series of anecdotes and techniques that can turn daily workplace friction into moments of empowerment and constructive change.

Listeners are encouraged to embrace their roles, using structured plans and emotional intelligence. From managing credit takers to avoiding the triggers of a volcano boss, the pair emphasize unity and clarity in communication. They bring forward a balanced approach, recognizing the strength in diversity and the art of managing upwards with diplomacy and tactical wisdom.

Chapters

• 00:00 - 01:00: Introduction The author reflects on a 42-year career, expressing gratitude for experiencing a range of difficult archetypes in the workplace. This exposure has taught them valuable lessons on managing challenging bosses and avoiding becoming one themselves. The chapter begins with the promise of an illustrative example.
• 01:00 - 02:00: Stats on Bad Bosses In this chapter titled 'Stats on Bad Bosses', Leon and his dad, Idris Jala, introduce their podcast, 'Game of Impossible'. They aim to delve into the topic of dealing with difficult bosses. The discussion is framed to explore strategies for managing challenging relationships with bosses and includes self-reflection for those who might be difficult bosses themselves. The conversation is set within the broader contexts of business, leadership, sport, and faith, which forms the foundation of their podcast's themes.
• 02:00 - 04:00: Archetypes of Bad Bosses The chapter discusses the concept of bad boss archetypes, focusing on the micromanager. A study is highlighted which reveals 65% of employees would prefer a change in management over a pay raise. The micromanager is characterized by a lack of trust, leading to tendencies of hoarding and controlling work, ultimately resulting in employee burnout.
• 04:00 - 06:00: Idris's Experience with Micromanagers The chapter 'Idris's Experience with Micromanagers' explores different management styles and their impacts on team dynamics. It describes types like the ghost manager who is aloof and disconnected, leading to team confusion, and the volcano manager known for emotional outbursts, causing instability. The chapter highlights the frustration from lack of ownership and challenges arising from unclear objectives.
• 06:00 - 08:00: Managing a Micromanager The chapter titled 'Managing a Micromanager' explores various types of challenging managerial behaviors, emphasizing their impact on team dynamics. It discusses the "credit taker" who seeks praise for successes but swiftly shifts blame onto others for failures, leading to team resentment and disengagement. It also introduces the "unaware" manager, characterized by poor communication skills, which adds to the complexity of team relations and requires careful management strategies. Overall, the chapter highlights the significance of addressing these behaviors to foster a healthier, more cooperative workplace.
• 08:00 - 12:00: Dealing with the Ghost Boss This chapter, titled 'Dealing with the Ghost Boss,' begins with a discussion about individuals who mean well but lack self-awareness. As a result, they often communicate inadequately, leading to negative outcomes such as frustration and potentially even a breakdown in workplace culture. Before diving into practical solutions, there's an emphasis on learning from past personal experiences, though specific names are not required or asked for in this context. These experiences can shape how people react and manage these situations better in the future.
• 12:00 - 15:00: Volcano Bosses and Their Emotions The chapter "Volcano Bosses and Their Emotions" explores the experiences of interacting with difficult bosses, using an individual's 42 years of work history as a backdrop. The speaker reflects on the variety of challenging boss archetypes encountered throughout their career and expresses a sense of gratitude for these experiences. They use the word 'fortunate' ironically to convey that dealing with these challenging personalities provided valuable lessons and insights. The chapter likely delves into how these difficult interactions have contributed to personal and professional growth.
• 15:00 - 19:00: Positive Side of Bad Boss Archetypes The chapter "Positive Side of Bad Boss Archetypes" discusses different types of challenging bosses and how to effectively deal with them. It emphasizes learning from such experiences to avoid becoming a difficult boss oneself. An example provided is that of a micromanager boss, and how interaction with such an individual taught valuable lessons applicable in various situations.
• 19:00 - 23:00: Addressing Volcano Outbursts This chapter discusses the management of micromanagement in addressing volcanic eruptions. It proposes the creation of a detailed three-foot plan, which is a meticulous strategy to be executed on a weekly basis, potentially to mitigate the impacts of such a natural disaster. The idea is to preemptively control every aspect of the situation, much like managing a team micromanagerially, ensuring everything is planned out to the smallest detail, including Key Performance Indicators (KPIs).
• 23:00 - 29:00: Handling Credit Takers In this chapter titled 'Handling Credit Takers', the focus is on dealing with micromanagers. The strategy involves incorporating specific activities for the micromanager in a three-step plan, which they must perform weekly. This responsibility subsequently encourages them to learn how to relinquish control, as failing to complete these tasks highlights their need to let go.
• 29:00 - 34:00: Dealing with Unaware Soloists This chapter discusses how to deal with 'unaware soloists' – those who fail to deliver their part in cooperative efforts. It recounts a lesson learned from a former manager about managing roles and expectations effectively. By setting clear boundaries, it becomes evident where managerial intervention is necessary versus where an individual should manage the situation themselves. This approach is particularly useful for managers who prefer to maintain some level of control while ensuring responsibilities are fulfilled appropriately.
• 34:00 - 40:30: Conclusion and Outro The speaker reflects on their past experiences and how they have influenced their current approach to life and work. They discuss the importance of clearly set guidelines in building trust and willingness to relinquish control. The speaker shares a personal anecdote about a past experience that they initially disliked but eventually led them to develop what they refer to as a 'three feet plan.' This approach contrasts with a more common '30,000 ft plan,' suggesting a focus on immediate, tangible steps rather than distant, overarching strategies.

#57 | How To Manage Any Boss (Even Bad Ones) | Idris & Leon Jala Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 In my 42 years of work, I have been I use the word fortunate that I have encountered practically all of those archetypes. And why I say I'm fortunate is the irony is that it is because I've encountered those people. I have learned so much about how to deal with those difficult bosses and how not to be one of those selves as well. Let me begin with one example.
• 00:30 - 01:00 Welcome to the game of impossible podcast. My name is Leon and this is my dad Idris Jala. We are a father and son podcast where we discuss all things transformation through the lens of business, leadership, sport and faith. Dad, I thought it would be good to talk today about difficult or even bad bosses. How do you manage a difficult boss? But also what do you do if maybe you are one of those difficult bosses and I think it would be good to then
• 01:00 - 01:30 explore some practical handles as well. But before we go into that some interesting stats. Now there was a deoid study that showed that 65% of employees say that they would rather change boss than have a pay rise. Wow. It's quite fascinating. Let's talk about some archetypes of bad bosses. First you have the micromanager. The micromanager is someone who operates from a trust deficit and as a result tends to hoard or uh control the work themselves and the impact of this is obviously burnout
• 01:30 - 02:00 from the team but also frustration that can stem from a lack of ownership. The other is the ghost. Someone who's a bit aloof, absent, not really there, perhaps also unclear about his or her objectives for the team. As a result of this, the team can be left confused and even disengaged. The other is the volcano. I think we're all familiar. We've all probably experienced one or two volcanoes in our lives. Prone to emotional outbursts and mood swings. And
• 02:00 - 02:30 the result of that is fear-based compliance within the team. The other is the credit taker. very quick to take credit when something goes well, but also very quick to point the blame to others when things don't go so well. The result of this is resentment as well as disengagement. And then finally, the the unaware. The unaware is usually someone who's a poor communicator. Often times, this is an interesting one because sometimes you find that these people
• 02:30 - 03:00 actually mean well, but because of a lack of self-awareness, they're perhaps a bit tonedeaf and then what happens is that they're unable to communicate in the right way and they get a negative response uh one usually of frustration or even uh at its worst uh culture rot as well. So well before we go into these kind of practical handles I first want to ask you something that I've actually never asked you before which was in your working experience and you don't have to name a name but has there been either a
• 03:00 - 03:30 an example of a difficult boss or maybe a difficult experience that you had with a previous boss? Well, in my 42 years of work, Leon, I have been I use the word that will be quite jarring to many people. I've been very fortunate that I have encountered practically all of those archetypes. And why I say I'm fortunate is the irony is that it is because I've encountered those people. I
• 03:30 - 04:00 have learned so much about what to how to deal with those difficult bosses and how not to be one of thoseelves as well. Let me begin with one example. Begin with a micromanager. The one you describe at the first one archetype. When I was in Holland, I had a boss that was a real difficult person that wants to micromanage because of my interaction with him. I learned one thing and I have used that regardless of whether I encounter a difficult boss's
• 04:00 - 04:30 micromanager. That is the need to produce what I call today a three ft plan. M and that means if you you are clear about your the results normally your uh your micromanager you begin with determining what's the KPI that's never the issue that guy wants to micromanage but if you produce a three ft plan and that's so detailed you will have it on a weekly basis every Friday you know who is going
• 04:30 - 05:00 to do what what is the the uh how do you come out the the beauty here is that in your threeig plan. When you deal with a micromanager, you put inside the three feed plan activities that he or she is going to do on a weekly basis. So, because he or she has to turn up and do what is on the plan, if he or she fail in doing it, you will find that person actually now will learn to let go.
• 05:00 - 05:30 Because you see, if you are delivering your peace and he's not delivering it, then he has a problem. That's exactly what I learned from that boss. What's also helpful there is, you know, on the one hand, it's also creating a bit of a okay, this seems like this involves maybe too much involvement from me, but also what it does is it frames the expectation on where is it appropriate for this boss to step in and where is it appropriate for me to to handle it. Correct? So by setting that up front, if you're maybe a boss who likes control, I
• 05:30 - 06:00 think you'd be more willing to relinquish control when the guidelines are very clearly set because then that builds trust because you know, oh this person seems to have it all planned out. Perhaps I can trust his or her and it is because of that experience I had. I didn't like it then. I considered it was a terrible experience. Interesting. But it was because of that experience I have now developed the need for everything that I do today. I call it a three feet plan. You don't have a 30,000 ft plan.
• 06:00 - 06:30 You bring it down to the level of detail. So, everybody knows the part that they have to play. And it was because of that experience I've learned how to do that. And so, I consider that a very important part of my approach to leadership. Producing a three- ft plan, not a 10,000 ft, not a 100,000 ft, not a high level plan. Bringing it down to the level of detail. This is the way to deal with the micro manager. If you produce the three fit plan, immediately the guy say, "Ah, I like this." Straight away
• 06:30 - 07:00 you will find that person begin to relax. You know why he likes it? Because you're going to give him an update on a weekly basis. He doesn't need to ask for it. They'll be on a Friday on a weekly basis. There's a dashboard that you're going to put. The micromanager in that person suddenly become a very relaxed person. That's how you deal with a micromanager. To me, encountering a micromanager is a very important ingredient. And for you
• 07:00 - 07:30 to learn to produce a 3 ft plan and if you can deal with that, that micromanager by producing a 3 ft plan, you will find that micromanager will begin to back up. Yeah. Have you then found yourself having micromanagerial tendencies? Myself? Yourself? Well, I mean simply because I realize that if you produce it, you yourself also if I'm a micro manager, I'm also relaxed because I know what my my guys are going to do on a weekly basis. And this is the beauty.
• 07:30 - 08:00 The moment you have a 3 ft plan, everyone in the organization now begin to back out because it's so clear who's going to do what the parts we all play. The interdependency and when problems are not being resolved, you are going to switch. In one of our episode we talk about problem solving. Yeah. If it's red color the following week you get into the routine of problem solving and that that that is that's where it becomes very very important the DMS. Let's let's zero in on the DMS one because I think
• 08:00 - 08:30 this nicely then can I I would think become the antidote to the next uh type of problem boss which is the the ghost one who is absent and aloof. And we of have we have often said in on this podcast that if you do not engage actively in problem solving that you cannot carry the badge of being a leader. Um and so I think if you are someone who's naturally a bit more aloof uh a discipline of problem solving could be one way to to engage then absolutely
• 08:30 - 09:00 uh for you to engage as a leader but also if you're managing upwards for you to be able to engineer an environment where your manager has to engage as well. uh maybe talk us through if there are an examp if there's an example of maybe a a ghost that you have worked with and then how did what what did you do to to work around I had a boss exactly like that when I was in in in London in Shell London I had a boss like that and I call him the ghost you call it I call him the absent boss the guy is
• 09:00 - 09:30 not there but you know how you get him involved is that when we have a red color on the dashboard on a weekly basis is we always had this idea of an automatic escalation within two weeks it's my problem I have to resolve it if I can't resolve it then it has to be escalated to my my boss my supervisor and he is involved in the problem solving so the system that we have is that the automatic escalation of problem
• 09:30 - 10:00 in a way force that boss to be involved because the the the problem solving will have him involved in the problem solving. That's the reason why I can't do it because the decision is not mine. Based on the manual of authority, all organization and manual of authority in that manual authority, the decision to make the call on that particular item if it's with the boss, the boss must be sitting there. He cannot be the ghost boss. He cannot be the absent boss. He
• 10:00 - 10:30 has to sit then in that meeting and that's how you draw them in because we have problem solving on a weekly basis because the automatic escalation force the absent bosses the ghost bosses to be present in the in the problem solving and because the manual of authority says no one else has the authority to make decision except the absent boss but he needs to be involved in that meeting to make the call to make the decisions that's how you get that so I've been very fortunate
• 10:30 - 11:00 because I had had a boss like that then in my vocabulary on management we have the automatic escalation of problem solving. Can I ask on this one? Because a lot of people um they they they listen to some of these concepts that we share, some of these systems that we share on the podcast, but they ask and I think valid questions because they ask, well, what if I'm very junior in the firm in the organization and I don't hold any decision-m power. Now, this presumes
• 11:00 - 11:30 that you have some agency to be able to begin a new system, an automatic escalation system or whatever else it might be. But what if you don't necessarily have the influence to be able to effective call for that meeting? How do you what do you do? You know, it is very simple. You can call for that. We call it the convening power. If you don't have a convening power to call for a meeting, but you know, we have the power to send an email to all of them and CC everybody. Yeah. So what you then
• 11:30 - 12:00 do is that you send it to so and so. said based on the manual of authority sir you are the only person that's authorized to make the decision to solve this problem then you CC to all the relevant parties who are involved in it and I have done the syndication with A B and C and they all collectively conclude that the solution to this problem is the following and based on the manual of authority you're the only
• 12:00 - 12:30 person that's authorized to make the call on it. All of us having discussed it, we conclude that the solution is this. Will you now say yes to this proposal to make the call? I mean that is how you get that absent manager to really has no choice. You have not the the the convening authority to call for everybody to come for the meeting let alone call the boss. But you definitely can send an email and but the key here
• 12:30 - 13:00 is that you you refer to the manual of authority saying that he has the authority to make decision and you say to them to him that you have now syndicated with everybody else. All the people conclude that there's only one solution to this and this is the solution. You will find that that absent boss or that go boss has got no choice. He's got to make the call because he's now snookered into having to make the decision. He's checkmated to make the decision. So, you heard it. Get get
• 13:00 - 13:30 typing away. Get working on your emails. But I think that's a good point because with any change management, you have to figure out a way that will get people on board with the lowest amount of friction. Yeah. Yeah. And so this is a good example because if it's difficult to begin to propose a new system to convene and to have kind of a a fixed touch point for everyone to give up of that time to sit in a meeting. That doesn't mean that you can't start with a simple email or something else to
• 13:30 - 14:00 be able to kind of allow people to have a foot in on that new process or that new system that you want to adopt. And then I think by doing that organically over time if that small behavior is repeated uh enough those small behaviors can then begin to form the basis of a a structure and a format which then can become an instituted system. Uh but sometimes the best thing to do is just
• 14:00 - 14:30 to to start it organically like this. And if we are creating systems, sometimes that's also helpful, I suppose, because it allows us to to test out the system. We're not building a system based on an assumption, but that we we build a system and we institutionalize the system based on tried and tested actions, smaller steps uh that we can control as individuals. So that's a good point. Now, let's talk about the third one. This one is fun. the volcano. Have you had what are some
• 14:30 - 15:00 what are some interesting stories of of dealing with a volcano? This is actually for me personally one that I have not Okay, maybe I take that back. Maybe May may maybe I have uh had I wouldn't I wouldn't call this person a volcano boss, but there have been volcano moments. Um maybe what what were some examples of this for you? I must say in my 42 years I didn't have a direct boss who's a volcano and to use the other
• 15:00 - 15:30 word for this the bully and but I have worked with bosses on the side and I observe them who are volcanoes and these are people I call them managing with spasm they manage with water. So they they manage with emotion. Yeah. the the temperature rise on the smallest thing that will irritate them and in a calm meeting on maybe on Wednesday
• 15:30 - 16:00 everybody come and have their cup of coffee it's a very nice meeting and suddenly there's something in the presentation that really get the guy completely off the cliff and you you find four letter words spilling out almost immediately and I have also seen people that those my immediate bosses stopping someone making the presentation. I would say this is in the government and I wasn't at that time a minister and I interacted. I had a
• 16:00 - 16:30 meeting and I would say this was a minister. I was not in the government. I realize everybody is going to write in the comments now who was it. I was not in the government and I was uh having a meeting with the government when I was in the private sector and the minister involved listening to a presentation. He stopped that person on slide number two. Great start. Uh absolutely slide number two he said do not make any more
• 16:30 - 17:00 presentation. This is just a waste of time. I'm going to call off this meeting. Didn't even hear because actually when if you look at the presentation after we finished the meeting, the minister actually walked out from that presentation. So a few of us were seated in the room there. We knew the slides because the slides were sent in advance. The answers were in the subsequent slide. But the minister he just got completely riled at slide number three and didn't even listen to
• 17:00 - 17:30 the opportunity for the person to present the rest of the side. The meeting was cancelled. It was this is what I call the volcano. Yeah. Interestingly the volcanoes can also the shadow side of the volcano is that it can lead to um you know unnecessary emotional outbursts that derail us from anything productive. But I've also seen the the positive side of people who have this tendency and because they are driven by their
• 17:30 - 18:00 emotions. They can also on the positive side be the most uh the most charismatic leaders as well and and and the leaders where if we are aligned will have the most conviction in in driving whatever it is you want to achieve forward. Agree. Agree. Agree. So if you if you look at it to your point, it's the same coin. The positive side of the same coin, you use the word very directive. Use the word robust. Yeah.
• 18:00 - 18:30 But on the negative side, that means if you overuse the same strength, it become negative. And that's when the emotion gets in the way, it becomes a bully. Instead of being directive, that person turn to become a bully and turn to become an obstinate person. No longer firm. Exactly. Firm is the positive side of it. When you overuse the firmness, the assertiveness, you become aggressive. It become a bully. That's a good point. And I think since we've done this, it's also worth maybe backtracking
• 18:30 - 19:00 a bit to to qualify that even for the micromanager that there is as much as there's a shadow side to it, there's also a positive because the the core of a micromanager hopefully is that they operate from a place of wanting to ensure excellence. Absolutely. And it's in the pursuit of excellence that sometimes the shadow side of that is they over control the outcome and they don't trust others to be able to excel. Similarly for the ghost perhaps the positive side of the ghost is because they are an empowering
• 19:00 - 19:30 leader and they believe in releasing and empowering the teams but the shadow side to that you can end up not providing guidance when guidance is required. So let me return back to the bully or the volcano how to deal with a boss like that. Yeah for me first of all do not react with emotion. that guy, that lady who's jumping with spasm during the meeting. Do not respond with spasm. Just keep calm based on the facts. The the
• 19:30 - 20:00 way to handle a volcano is prior to the meeting you must have enough syndication with senior people that are more senior than the volcano and obtain their views and their opinion which are different the politics of delivery. So if you have now engaged the key stakeholders on the same topic and better still they are his
• 20:00 - 20:30 bosses even more senior than him or her and then you put in clearly the differing opinions on it. You will find that the volcano calmed down because he realized that he is a bull in the China shop but he realized there are bigger bulls out there as well. You know what's interesting about this? So you and I have quite okay I wouldn't say that they are different because I I I would also then apply these same
• 20:30 - 21:00 principles but my default usually tends to be how do we how do we address it at the level of the the interaction but I realized whenever whenever you talk about a solution to a problem it's always an environmental change. So similarly with creating creating a fixed touch point for problem solving that creates an environment for someone who's aloof to be involved in this case creating an environment where there are other senior people who you have lobbied naturally gets the the volcano to maybe
• 21:00 - 21:30 be a bit more objective in the thing you know but maybe while we're on it is also it is also because you did mention that if if a volcano confronts you on something don't don't allow your first rea reaction to be uh one of rebuttal. And it's worth worth zeroing on this one for a bit because for those of us who think well I can't I don't know if I can uh necessarily change the environment. Um here's here's a behavioral thing if you are caught in a conversation because
• 21:30 - 22:00 sometimes there will be conversations that you have and you've got no other thing to do but to deal with it head on. Um, and when you shared that, it just reminded me of uh what Chris Voss said. And Chris Voss is a is was a former um FBI negotiator. He said that negotiation is not an act of battle but an act of discovery. And he has this useful tool and he calls it the power of that's right. M so he said that in any negotiation and now you could argue that maybe this is a bit coercive but he says
• 22:00 - 22:30 in any conversation in any negotiation what you want to try to do is not to get the other person to say you're right because for me to say you are right if I am a volcano and if I have an ego that's going to undermine my own ego my own power and so I will be very uncomfortable if the conversation is navigating towards uh you are right from me. But what he says instead is flip the script and find little prompts and
• 22:30 - 23:00 things for the other person to say that's right. And usually this involves things like asking if so like if you if you are a volcano and you are accusing me of something maybe you the example you gave you've stopped me at slide two and you've said this slide presentation is terrible please stop. Rather than trying to defend my case and saying no it's good I've done the prep. Let me show you that is a you're right stance. How do you get this person to arrive at
• 23:00 - 23:30 that's right is you start asking may I understand do do you think that the presentation is poor because and then you give some assumptions as to why they might uh be rejecting it and then what that produces is that yes that's right I I don't think and his point is if you try to engineer as many of these that's right responses from people you're more likely to ultimately land at a point where you can objectively now have a good conversation about this and get a you know a positive outcome from the
• 23:30 - 24:00 discussion. There's a guy called George Passen whom I've had the privilege to work with many many years ago and he deals with people when he talks about bullies or volcano. The reason why they are volcanoes is this our mind the frontal lobe of the brain is the rational side. The behind of the brain is called the bird brain. The bird brain is the one that has the emotion. So even the volcano when under calm and
• 24:00 - 24:30 collected situation the volcano is a rational person. Exactly. When the person flip to use the bird brain it's already the emotion no longer looking at the facts. George's person's view is this any one of those volcano person they have a a tendency if the person is directive style that means when the person is very very unhappy if the guy is naturally a directive person the language you need to talk for the person
• 24:30 - 25:00 the language of result and if the person is a bully but it's more a perfectionist kind of a person the Person that wants the perfection is demanding time because without time he cannot find a perfect solution. So what do you do with a guy like that in when the moment is he is completely riled up on emotion you said sir we will give enough time for us to look for for it.
• 25:00 - 25:30 If if that person who is already using the bird brain is the analytical type. The thing that will calm the person down from being a volcano is data and facts. Then you all you need to do to that person is I will find the facts. The data that will require the empirical evidence. Then you got person is calm down. That volcano person also can get riled up. It person is what's called accommodating style. That means he believe in harmonious relationship and
• 25:30 - 26:00 it becomes a volcano when he realized that you have now caused friction in in the organization. So the language that used to calm that person down is to say that we will now focus on establishing good rapport in relationship with people. You notice every single one of these when you understand their their natural tendency you use the language and they calm them down. What happen is that the mind start shifting from the bird brain
• 26:00 - 26:30 to the frontal lobe. Yeah. The rational lobe. And the person who is a volcano becomes a normal rational person. So I've used that in a lot of dealing with conflict resolutions. So the directive style, the perfecting style, the analytical style, the accommodating style. In fact, there's another one that I forgot to mention, the facilitating style. The person is interested in process. So if your guy is processor orientated, if you want to talk about
• 26:30 - 27:00 data, he will even more riled up but you only need to talk about process. What are the process steps? He said sir these are the process steps we going to take and if you're not clear what they are said in the next couple of days I will come with the process steps to make it clear that then the person become relaxed. Yeah. So you really have to find them to get them out from the emotion out the volcano to become a very rational and a normal person to handle this. Very good. That's definitely going
• 27:00 - 27:30 to make a good uh good shot on uh on on IG and on Tik Tok. Uh let's talk about now the the credit taker or the credit hoarder. Um what do you do when you are met with a credit taker and if you are if you feel that you are prone to hoarding credit what can you do to be able to release many bosses like that I have from the time I was young to the time of middle manager to become serious very senior I have met many of them I
• 27:30 - 28:00 call them the it's all about me boss or the the credit thief credit thief that's a nice one yeah maybe we should use that instead So these people the first thing you need to do let's suppose you have a very big spectacle you have a big meeting that has a lot of people the first thing you must do let the boss have the starting opening remark and make sure that he or
• 28:00 - 28:30 she has the closing remark because they always like to be it's all about me and every time I'm not to saying that you want to bake that fellow but but the reality is it's important to play on the ego. These people love to see themselves on the pedestal. So it's no harm in my view giving them credit and so making reference to them you say like so and so has given me the steer for me to go and do this and then you say this is the
• 28:30 - 29:00 presentation you tell the boss the meeting is going to last for 8 hours we have a whole open day here sir we're going to put you you produce the opening remark and so you give the opening remark and then you say this is what we are planning to do it is going to present this afterwards Ali is going to do that and so the person become the orchestrator in the eyes of everybody else but what is happening is that the content is presented by the individual
• 29:00 - 29:30 parties that are the experts in that area and you don't have to feel guilty if you are the contributor you no longer have to feel guilty about giving it your 110% and stealing the show because you've now created a very clear frame to say that no matter what I do I won't be stealing your thunder because by putting you up front, the perception to everyone else or the perception that you can choose to believe, some might argue the delusion that you can choose to have is
• 29:30 - 30:00 that my amazing contribution is the result of your tremendous leadership. It may be true, but in some cases also it could be could be untrue. Sometimes if you want to get ahead, you have to sometimes be able to play into this um a little bit because I think it would be it would be better for you to do this and be unhindered then in your individual contribution than to not do this and to have your contributions stifled in the fear of overshadowing your boss. And the other thing that I
• 30:00 - 30:30 use, this is a very very important tool that I use when I was CEO, I was managing director and I have a chairman or chair lady. Every board meeting or every AGM I will sit with the chairperson to discuss in detail what we intend to do. People who are the credit thief, they're looking for how they are beginning to make the statement up front so that it look like they are the ones responsible for doing it. So if you tell the person
• 30:30 - 31:00 right in front this is what we are going to cover in the opening remark that person will make the linkage to himself or herself to show to people he is the reason why the result is as good as it looks because you don't surprise that person and so if you start doing that no harm in what I call becoming the shampoo becoming the shampoo if you have nice hair if you have nice hair. You walk
• 31:00 - 31:30 around in the shopping mall, nobody will come out and see, hey Leon, what shampoo do you use? They will say you have very nice hair. Right. Okay. Understand? So, so what you need to do is so you become the shampoo. If the boss looks good and the result is okay, you know, I always tell the young very impetuous young graduates who all wanting to get credit for themselves, be patient. Your time will come and make sure that you become
• 31:30 - 32:00 the shampoo. If the boss looks good, the departments get results. I can tell you eventually the truth will set you free. Even if these people start to steal the credit, the credit at some point will return to you. Be patient. Wait for your time. Don't be too impetuous to try to steal the credit. And don't get involved in a mudslinging contest over credit. And if it's difficult, just focus on
• 32:00 - 32:30 delivering your job. Eventually people will know. If you are if you are a credit taker. Yeah. Um actually what we have found quite useful is that we we have a what we call a skip level policy um at HTB, the church that I work at. And this allows anyone who let's say you are my direct uh line report but above you there's there's someone else that means that I have every right to be able
• 32:30 - 33:00 to have check-ins as well with the person above you. And so I found this quite useful because if let's say I know that my team um has access and frequent check-ins as well with with my boss. It means that I'm also kind of held accountable now because you you don't know what they will what they will reveal. uh and in this case I think it works both ways cuz it ensures accountability if you are maybe that credit thief manager or if you have those tendencies but also if you are the
• 33:00 - 33:30 contributor and to your point earlier about you feel like will my contributions uh be forever shadowed and forever not recognized um by having a skip level arrangement that also allows you to ensure that other people are seeing your contributions. It's a little bit like your what what you described earlier about before a board meeting ensuring that you have some kind of contact time with the chairperson first so that even if one person tries to
• 33:30 - 34:00 steal the show and take the credit we've already understood among ourselves that I I I contributed to that piece and the the third point is this dealing with the credit thief you know every year there is the annual staff appraising exactly let's say the boss is a credit thief and this guy is a perpetual credit thief. He wants to steal everything from everybody. But you know the exercise called the merit increment, the bonus exercise, ranking
• 34:00 - 34:30 exercise. Let's say he's got 10 people reporting to him or her. He's got to follow the normal distribution curve. Who are the top among the 10? Who's the top 5%? Who's the next, you know, 30%? Who's the remaining 70%. And that person has got to do it. You know what? The person who is delivering the results will appear in the top 5%. And the next best person will appear in the next 30%. You know the best thing to you for him
• 34:30 - 35:00 or her to do is that during the time of giving the bonuses and merit increment that person cannot say I am the reason why everything has been delivered because the system allows for a fair distribution of the bonuses. So he cannot steal the bonus to himself. It will be given to the right people. So for the impetuous young people who are so desirous of wanting to draw the credit calm down because the annual increment the bonuses is going to come.
• 35:00 - 35:30 So if you just keep your head down deliver your job even the the ultimate credit thief is going to grant it to you during the merit increment because the rules of the game he cannot put all the bonuses to himself. That's not doable. So in the end, that's why I say the term we use in Christianity is the truth will set you free. And in this case, the truth that set you free is your result.
• 35:30 - 36:00 Make sure you deliver your results. And when you deliver your results, the credit thief cannot take away that result from you. People can't necessarily change other people. Yeah. But results and environment certainly can. Absolutely. That's a good example. And I think let's finally talk about the last type of difficult person or difficult boss which is the the unaware. The person who maybe is a bit tonedeaf and maybe
• 36:00 - 36:30 well-intentioned but just is not very wellliked in the organization. Yeah. And maybe just has poor communication ability and for whatever reason just unable to unable to communicate their ideas in the way that they were intended to be. They try to give encouragement but it becomes taken as a backhanded compliment instead. I think there are quite a few people like this as well. These are very awkward people. Yeah. And and I sympathize with this category
• 36:30 - 37:00 because in most cases they are well-intentioned. Well, the difficult one to deal with. They very difficult. People like this I call them the awkward soloist. They tend to thrive in single endeavors. They do not thrive in a team sport when there are lot of players that are involved because they are almost left field. So I always find people like this best to give them solo endeavors. Give them clear task. Let the person run
• 37:00 - 37:30 with it. And so if a boss is at a very unaware kind of guys because you give him a very tight brief and say this is the whole thing that we do. there are 10 things that needs to be done but you allow that person a very tight brief to go focus on this this part of it and you know how it relates to the rest the interconnectivity you'll find that person actually has a part to play and when the when he or she then establish the connection during the meeting then
• 37:30 - 38:00 you will find that the they call the unaware soloist become aware of the connectivity because everybody you know what they say I am presenting my part ladies and gentlemen and this is how my part has connected with so and so's part and you then establish the connection between what you're doing and with the other person is doing the other person that I'm I'm see I'm doing the part and this is how my see connects with what the other person is going the unaware
• 38:00 - 38:30 guy then becomes aware how it connects so they all these guys need to do is to make the connection the unawareness is because They cannot make the connection. But the connection comes from dividing the parts and making other people make reference to what he or she is doing. When the person feels good about it, they begin to you know what they become, they become nosy pucker. They just begin to want to know what the other guys are doing and say, "Oh, I'm interested." When you then make the person becoming
• 38:30 - 39:00 more and more interested in what you you are doing, then it's tremendous. The other thing that is needed let's say even the difficult boss who is an unaware soloist he will have his own boss and if this boss understands that person is that the the the unaware soloist if he plays the part correctly and tells everybody there are a lot of linkages here all of you have to play your part
• 39:00 - 39:30 and say let's say that guy is a marketing manager he's completely unaware that's going on everywhere and he say look you are marketing but you are dependent on the sales manager in the team but the sales manager cannot deliver it if the product is not even available from the monitoring plant. The guys in the manufacturing manager must make sure every week we have enough stock to supply it. You will find that the person then realize the unaware boss
• 39:30 - 40:00 is now forced to find out the linkages. Yeah. And if you produce a routine and in this routine they all must provide their update to everybody else. The unaware soloist is now forced by the routine. The word use cadence to implement a cadence so that there's a routine for them to connect with one another. You will find that person who is the unaware soloist will now no choice he's become part of the wider
• 40:00 - 40:30 tent and he's become no choice he's got to be involved in everybody else he's doing so I find I've been that's why I began by saying Leon I've been very fortunate 42 years of work life experience I have met every single one of those people in my working career and I consider it's a blessing and Because of that I have learned so much about what to do and what not to do and I we produce what's called the eightstep big fast result methodology
• 40:30 - 41:00 and all of that if you like if you follow the eightstep process regardless of whether the person is volcano the absent manager micromanager the eightst step deals with all types of archetypes yeah that's very good and I think if there are people who are managing upwards to either of these difficult people. Hopefully through this episode you've gotten some practical handles for how to do that better, how to uh you know on the one hand have maybe
• 41:00 - 41:30 conversations around it but also I think more more pertinently how to create environments where the change in behavior is almost a given and then if you happen to be one of those people as well I think the encouragement if we go back to one of your earlier points is that with all of these archetypes as much as there's a shadow side there's also a positive side. So the question is how do you then address what is the core value that causes either of these reactions and how do you then say how
• 41:30 - 42:00 can I focus on the positive side of me having this particular tendency. You know the irony as we were talking about the the the unaware soloist as you call it is that my my role at HTV is in leadership development. So, I like to think that I'm pretty self-aware, but I'm very humbled by this statistic which says that 90% of people think they are self-aware when in fact only 10% of people actually are self-aware. And what a great reminder that is for those of us
• 42:00 - 42:30 who think that we are self-aware to remember that actually all of us not just when in the area of awareness but all of us will have times where we will default to either one of these uh tendencies. But the important thing is to not be discouraged by it, to acknowledge it. That's half the battle won. If we acknowledge that we have either of these problems, that gives us a better starting point to think of things we can do to begin to change that slightly. I want to tell you a story, Elon, and this is a very interesting
• 42:30 - 43:00 story. years ago when I worked as the managing director and also country chairman of Shell in Sri Lanka, we were going to build a terminal, Shell gas terminal in the port of Colbo, laying the pipelines through the Dutch canal all the way to a place called Keriwala Pitia. before I went there. This project is notorious for being full of delays and it was supposed to have been built 4 years before I
• 43:00 - 43:30 arrived. The project didn't even begin. There were lots of problem. So, so when we went out there, they sent one of the top project directors. His name Carl Coleman whom you you remember the guy. So, he was sent they said this guy is very good. There was a project manager reporting to him and he was reporting to me. They told me this it is because his project's notorious
• 43:30 - 44:00 for being delayed. They are going to get a person from the center to come and kickstart this project. They call him the gunslinger in project management. His name Han Stroke. I remember his name. He flew from Holland. We had our first meeting you know we all sat down in the table he turned to me are you responsible for making sure
• 44:00 - 44:30 that this project is delivered yes or no yes I'm responsible you know what he said you are not the person responsible then he turned to Carl Coleman he's the project director Carol are you responsible for making this project successful full and delivered. So, of course, it's me. I'm the project director. Carl, you are not responsible for making this project work. He turned to the other guy. I
• 44:30 - 45:00 think Tom, he said, "Tom, you are the project manager. You are responsible. You are responsible." And he had a beard, right? He said, "I do not want you to shave your beard because every time I come from Holland, every quarter I will come here, all of us will look at you. I will call you the man with the beard." You know why I never I forgot his name? Because we call him the man with the
• 45:00 - 45:30 beard. Do not shave your beard. You are the man with the beard. You know he then he turned to me. It is your job as the chairman at the CEO is to help Tom, the man with the beard. When he has a problem, your job is to help him deliver it. Carl, your job is to help him deliver it. Every problem is the man with the beard. That is the man with the beard. And all of us look at him. So, we
• 45:30 - 46:00 should call him every single week. How can we help you deliver the the terminal and the project? I can tell you that was a learning lesson from that moment onwards. I can tell you we had a detailed 3 ft plan exactly how going to do it. We had problem solving every week because my job is to help him. Caro Coleman's job is to help him because Hans Troy when he sends email he
• 46:00 - 46:30 doesn't send it to me. He sends to him and he CC to Kman and others. We had all the tracking mechanism. Very interesting. He breaks to the entire protocol. He does not send the note to me as a managing director. Everything goes to the man with the beard CC to me and Carman and he says Idris your job is to help him. These are the problem. And the guy it was absolutely instructional and that's why I remember Hans Stroke he
• 46:30 - 47:00 was the gunslinger and project management and that was the technique he used from then onwards I refer to project management in the way the man with the beard and what a great place to to end. Let's end this podcast on a high with impact. We hope you've enjoyed this conversation. I certainly have. If you enjoyed conversations like this, we put up episodes every Friday at 6:00 a.m., so you can subscribe to our YouTube as well as our Spotify channel. We also upload short form content on both our IG
• 47:00 - 47:30 as well as Tik Tok at the game of impossible. See you next week. But until then, take care.