Are Ramayana and Mahabharata Myths? #UnplugWithSadhguru

Summary

In a lively and thought-provoking discussion titled "Are Ramayana and Mahabharata Myths? #UnplugWithSadhguru," Sadhguru addresses the nature of these ancient Indian epics. Engaging with a moderator, Sadhguru explores the fine line between myth and historical narrative in the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. Through humor and wisdom, Sadhguru argues that these stories, while embellished over time, hold deep truths beyond historical facts. He emphasizes the distinction between fact and essence, highlighting the importance of the cultural wisdom passed orally through generations in India. The dialogue underscores how the narratives are not just religious texts but are viewed as vital parts of national history, offering lessons that transcend time.

Highlights

• Sadhguru argues that Ramayana and Mahabharata, despite embellishments, offer profound truths beyond mere facts 🔍.
• He humorously suggests Indians have the liberty with 'zeros', indicating flexibility in numerical claims historically made 🇮🇳.
• The conversation brings forth how history vs. literature dynamics influence perceptions of epics 🌐.
• Sadhguru points out Rama's story as a narrative of personal sacrifice and duty beyond personal grievances 👑.
• The dialogue deftly maneuvers through misconceptions of historical and cultural significance in epic tales 🧠.

Key Takeaways

• Sadhguru explains the distinction between religion and mythology, emphasizing the cultural wisdom embedded in epics like the Ramayana and Mahabharata 📚.
• He discusses how stories, although may be exaggerated, hold universal truths important for understanding life's complexities 🌟.
• The dialogue illustrates the value of oral tradition in preserving cultural narratives, despite the modern preference for written records 📖.
• Sadhguru uses humor to showcase how even if certain historical facts are questioned, the learning from these epics remains significant 😂.
• He stresses the importance of deriving moral and ethical learnings from epics rather than fixating on historical accuracy 🤔.

Overview

Sadhguru dives into the intriguing discourse on whether India's ancient epics, the Ramayana and Mahabharata, are mere myths or actual history. He fabricates an engaging narrative that pulls in real-world parallels while clarifying the blending of history and myth in Indian tradition.

Throughout the discussion, Sadhguru infuses humor and realism, addressing the complexities of accepting epics as both literature and history. He reflects on how various characters represent the spectrum of human qualities, much like how society interacts and learns from past narratives.

The conversation goes beyond mere storytelling to extract ethical insights and life lessons that are as relevant today as they were thousands of years ago. Sadhguru’s engaging exchange challenges listeners to embrace the wisdom of these tales, while humorously acknowledging their embellished facets.

Chapters

• 00:00 - 01:00: Introduction to Mythology and Religious Texts In the chapter titled 'Introduction to Mythology and Religious Texts,' the discussion opens with a focus on mythology, specifically mentioning the epic Iliad written by Homer. The conversation highlights a humorous note from Sadhguru regarding Homer's blindness, questioning how he detailed the presence of fourteen thousand horses. This raises a point about the blend of history and storytelling in ancient texts, suggesting that these narratives might be partially based on historical events, yet are ultimately crafted into stories meant to convey deeper truths or cultural values. The moderator facilitates this discussion, emphasizing the interpretative nature of mythology.
• 01:00 - 01:30: Debating Ramayana and Mahabharata as Gospel The chapter discusses the perception of the Indian epics, Ramayana and Mahabharata, not as mere literary works but as gospels. A question is raised about the tendency to take religious scriptures as absolute truth in contemporary society. Sadhguru refutes the notion that people would universally accept these epics as gospels, highlighting the potential confusion and complexity involved if they were to be taken as such.
• 01:30 - 02:00: Storytelling vs. Official Versions The chapter highlights the diverse representations of people within the Mahabharata, capturing the complexities of human character beyond simplified narratives. It criticizes the reduction of such rich diversity into a singular, rigid form like a gospel, advocating instead for a more playful, gossip-like approach to storytelling, akin to the initiative 'Youth and Truth.' The text underscores how throughout history, unofficial narratives have held more authenticity and appeal than official ones.
• 02:00 - 03:00: Historical Authenticity and Oral Tradition The chapter titled 'Historical Authenticity and Oral Tradition' explores the reliability of oral traditions versus official narratives. It highlights how people often trust gossip and word of mouth more than official versions of events. Despite the potential for distortion and transformation of the truth through gossip, people tend to find elements of truth in these narratives. The moderator raises concerns about the loss of truth over time as gossip evolves, prompting a discussion on the authenticity and preservation of historical facts.
• 03:00 - 04:00: Truth vs. Facts in Historical Narratives The chapter discusses the debate around historical narratives, focusing on the arguments that claim Mughal structures were not actually constructed by the Mughals. This view is described as a misinterpretation, akin to gossip. The conversation hints at regional distinctions, suggesting that perceptions and interpretations of history may vary geographically.
• 04:00 - 06:00: Rama's Story of Struggle and Sacrifice The chapter 'Rama's Story of Struggle and Sacrifice' delves into the debate on the existence of Rama, illustrating how some people question his reality due to reliance on documented evidence. The discussion emphasizes that the narrative around Rama has been sustained through an oral tradition in Indian culture for thousands of years. It challenges readers to trust oral histories as they bear significant cultural value despite not being written, highlighting a cultural conflict between oral and written traditions.
• 06:00 - 08:00: Leadership and the Greater Good The chapter explores the concept of leadership and its connection to the greater good. It suggests that recorded history, such as the stories of Rama in Indian culture and the war on Troy described by Homer in the Iliad, reflects truths that are shared throughout societies, even if there are minor variations in these stories. The narrative implies that the widespread acceptance and recounting of such events throughout a culture suggest their significance and potential validity.
• 08:00 - 09:30: Conclusion: Lessons from Rama's Life The conclusion focuses on reflections from Rama's life as presented in the earlier chapters. It engages in a discussion about the historical existence of Ram and the veracity of the events depicted in his story. The speaker, Sadhguru, humorously comments on the Indian invention of zero and the tendency to take liberty with numbers when recounting historical events. He suggests that whether a hundred thousand or ten thousand men fought in the ancient battles doesn’t alter the overarching narratives or lessons to be learned from Rama's story, emphasizing the importance of philosophical insights over literal historical accuracy.

Are Ramayana and Mahabharata Myths? #UnplugWithSadhguru Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 Moderator: Moving on to the mythology. So, we know that Iliad was written by Homer, right?(Sadhguru laughs). A blind guy he wrote that there are fourteen thousand horses. But since we know that he could not have seen it for himself, we believe that there is some sort of historical, you know storytelling, going on there,
• 00:30 - 01:00 Would you say… but nowadays all the scriptures… religious scriptures are taken as gospel. So should we also believe that there is myth-making in the Ramayana, in the Mahabharata, and that taking them as gospel, rather than just work of literature, is wrong? Sadhguru: I…I don’t see anybody taking Ramayan and Mahabharata as a gospel! Moderator: There are certain factions which are… Sadhguru: No, no. They cannot, because they’ll get freaked out with confusion.
• 01:00 - 01:30 Because there are all kinds of people in Mahabharat. The best sort of men, the worst sort of men, in-between every kind of man and woman is there, over hundred thousand characters. How can you make a gospel out of it? So you said storytelling. I don’t know if you’ve seen the by-line of Youth and Truth, “Not the seriousness of gospel, but the playfulness of gossip,” because gossip has always been reliable (Laughter). No… at any time in history, nobody went by the official version.
• 01:30 - 02:00 Whatever the official version came, people asked around with their friends and relatives, “What happened?” When five people said five different things, people learnt out of their wisdom to extract some truth out of the gossip. But people always relied more on the gossip, than the official version. Isn’t it so? It’s not just today, always. Moderator: However, given that this gossip can lead to a transformation of this truth to an extent where it’s lost forever, do you think that’s troubling? Sadhguru: See, first of all, you are questioning did it actually happen, right?
• 02:00 - 02:30 Moderator: No, so we are saying that the same argument which you have given is the argument which is usually used these days to say that buildings which were constructed by the Moghuls were actually not Moghul structures. Sadhguru: Oh, okay (Laughs). I get the point. Moderator: However, that’s gossip being misinterpreted completely. Sadhguru: (Laughs) Now… See, if you come further South,
• 02:30 - 03:00 people are questioning whether Rama existed or not, okay? This is a just a question of poor memory. When the entire nation is been talking about it for thousands of years, now the problem is, your trust in the printed word is more than the spoken word, that is the whole problem. But you must understand, this is a oral culture. We always transmitted most significant things orally. You may… You may think it’s insignificant because it’s not written.
• 03:00 - 03:30 But anybody can write it down. People have written it down now. Now it’s a printed word. But now somebody questions did Rama exist or not. Not in one place, in entire culture, when everybody is talking about the same story, with minor variations here and there, it could not have been just made up by all the people, isn’t it? Moderator: I guess… I guess his point was also, by bringing in the Iliad example, the same – that the war on Troy did happen, but the fact that Homer says that fourteen thousand horses were there,
• 03:30 - 04:00 is clearly not a truth. Sadhguru: Maybe not. Moderator: May be Ram did exist, but are the facts which are the things which are … Sadhguru: See, we are after all Indians. We invented zero. We have certain freedom in using number of zeros (Applause). We are taking liberty with that (Applause). Don’t…(Applause) see, see, whether six, seven thousand years ago, whether hundred thousand men fought or ten thousand men fought, doesn’t make a difference.
• 04:00 - 04:30 The way the story is said in this country, is not for its facts, but for its truth. You are trying to bring out a certain truth (Applause). The fact of it – whether hundred thousand men fought, ten thousand men fought – what does it matter? You don’t have to manage that war today. It’s over (Laughter/Applause)! So the important thing is, what is there for me to learn from that? Alright? If… If that’s the question mark, we can go ahead with that.
• 04:30 - 05:00 Moderator: I guess that was his point itself. That when you look at religious texts, as you would learn from a piece of literature Sadhguru: See, don’t call them religious texts. This is nation’s history. Moderator: Yes. So let’s say, if you look at another piece of literature, you would derive learnings from it. Sadhguru: No. Literature is different. History is different (Laughter/Applause). Moderator: Okay. Sadhguru: Literature… Literature can be fiction. History is written in a dialectical way, so that it’s always relevant for you.
• 05:00 - 05:30 I am saying, six-thousand years ago, whether a man existed or not, what’s my problem, unless he has something to contribute to my life today, isn’t it? Moderator: However, if history has been written, and the facts of the history are not clear. Sadhguru: See, this is what I am saying. The fact is like this.. Suppose six-thousand years ago, Rama had a wife whose name was not Sita.
• 05:30 - 06:00 What’s my problem (Laughter)? Moderator: We are not questioning whether the name was Sita, Sadhguru: Not only the name. I am saying, okay he was not his father’s name was not that, it was something else. He was somebody else. What does it matter to me? Moderator: We are even questioning the sequence of events over here. Sadhguru: You can. Moderator: About how . Sadhguru: See, sequence of events also you can question. But what I am asking is, a six thousand year old drama, if it got little mixed up, it is not your problem. The problem is just this, is there something for us to get from that?
• 06:00 - 06:30 Moderator: True. Sadhguru: That’s all the thing is. Now why we are worshiping Rama (Laughs) in this country is, he is not a super success. He’s a serial disaster (Laughter), if you look at it. Yes! Even today he is having real estate issues, that’s why you brought this up (Cheers/Laughter/Applause). But it is not today alone… it’s not today alone.
• 06:30 - 07:00 Right from the beginning of his life, he is in trouble and trouble and trouble and trouble (Laughter). See, he is rightfully a king. He is coroneted at the age of seventeen or eighteen. He marries a princess, and within one or two years, he is sent to the forest. They didn’t go to the jungle for picnic (Laughter), as some of the television serials are showing, Rama-Sita doing all that (Laughter). No. It is a… It is a… like you know,
• 07:00 - 07:30 throwing him out of the kingdom, from his power and everything. That itself would have shattered a man. But he settled down there. Moderator: But Rama is also an insecure person, who… when (Sadhguru Laughs)… when Sita came back to him, first she sat through fire. Sadhguru: We will… we will come there. Don’t jump Moderator: First she sat through fire... Sadhguru: First let’s kidnap her, no (Laughter/Applause)? Moderator: Yes, yes, yes, please let’s go by… Sadhguru: See, now you are changing (Laughs)… See, now you are changing the sequence of things. Moderator: No. no. Please go ahead. Sadhguru: First let’s kidnap her. Alright (Cheers/Laughter/Applause)?
• 07:30 - 08:00 Now... Now, these Sri Lankan people come and kidnap his wife and go away. After all… After all, he is a king. If somebody steals his wife and takes her away, some three thousand kilometers down South… there is no GPS to even find out where is Sri Lanka (Laughter), all right? At a time like that, being a king, he could have found a local solution (Laughter).
• 08:00 - 08:30 There would be any number of women to marry the man. He is a king. But, he goes in search of her, not with a big army just him and his brother. Like ordinary people. If a man has to walk three thousand kilometers down South, not knowing where she is, whether she is alive or dead or what’s happened? Then she must mean so much to him, yes or no? Participants: Yes. Sadhguru: Otherwise, why would a man walk that distance (Applause)? Now, he goes there, he forms a Tamil army – don’t forget this (Laughter).
• 08:30 - 09:00 And then there is a fight, kills hundreds of people, burns down a beautiful city, gets back his wife, comes and settles down. Before this, I will tell you – he goes for a year of penance in Himalayas. His brother asks, “Are you crazy? This man stole your wife. And now you’re doing penance for his death?” He said, he had ten basic qualities – Ravana. “Killing those nine, which were horrendous qualities, I… no penance for me, no repentance for that.
• 09:00 - 09:30 But he was also a great devotee, and I killed that also.” So one year of penance, the man goes for (Applause). This is not a (Laughs)… And then he settles down and his wife is pregnant. You must understand, for a king, his wife is pregnant, means it’s not just about a child, it’s a progeny for his empire and there are many things involved. No sonogram, so he doesn’t know whether it’s a girl or a boy, or boys or girls or anything.
• 09:30 - 10:00 But once again, a political situation evolves where he has to send his wife to the forest, which you are saying is insecurity. Moderator: Not that part, so we can even begin from the first point, in which, after he rescues Sita, Sita has to sit through a fire to prove that she is pure, right? Sadhguru: For whom? Moderator: So that other people will accept, because Rama cared about how people saw him. Rama, when he came back, a random Dhobi in your kingdom said that,
• 10:00 - 10:30 “Sita, I am not like Ram who will keep a woman in my house who might have a child which is not mine.” For this, Rama sends away Sita again to the forest. Moderator: At any point… Sadhguru: That is the insecurity you are talking about? Moderator: At any point Rama wanted his people to love him. Sadhguru: No, no. Let’s come to this properly. Today in our country there are many kinds of things. I am asking you – do you want a leader for this nation who puts the people of this nation above his own family and his personal love?
• 10:30 - 11:00 I am asking you. Participants: Yes. Sadhguru: Or do you want a Drudarastra – “At any cost, my son.” You want a man who puts the citizens of this country above his family. This is not just another woman for him. He went and fought a battle for her, walked three thousand kilometers. This is not just another woman. He is living for her, but still, he sends her back to the jungle when she is pregnant,
• 11:00 - 11:30 knowing fully well, that it could be his future for this kingdom. And he is putting… See, it is not just about a dhobi, this is what your mistake you are taking these things literally. When a dhobi said – what it is being said is, ordinary people are talking like this. Ordinary people have no trust in the king, that he’s… she… he is just brought some woman from somewhere and he is made her our queen, because queen is seen as a mother to the nation. We don’t want such a woman as our mother, that’s what they are saying.
• 11:30 - 12:00 She went and lived with some man, somewhere. This is what the people of those times are saying. So, if the king says, “I don't care what you think, I love my wife and keep her,” that would be not a good king, not a good administrator. So he is putting his people above somebody that he loves very, very dearly, and she is pregnant. It’s not a small thing for him. It means a world, but still, he sends her to the jungle. This should be bowed down to...
• 12:00 - 12:30 this is why we bow down to the man (Applause). No? Please say. Moderator: I think moving on… Sadhguru: No, no Sadhguru: No, no, why. He has something to say, please. Moderator: So there are different types of responsibilities of you as a person. As a king, there are different responsibilities, and as a human – as a family member – you have different responsibilities. Now you can’t just throw away your wife and send her to a jungle. It’s… It’s like just objectifying her. It’s not treating her like another human who is pregnant, who’ll need different things
• 12:30 - 13:00 and have promised her different things. Sadhguru: Well, then you are against Gautama Buddha (Applause), you are against Rama – everybody. But you need to understand this in the right context, that is, if this woman didn’t mean anything to her, he wouldn’t have travelled down to Sri Lanka, fought a battle and brought her back, isn't it? Moderator: It was his pride about what he could do? Sadhguru: How… How can you (Laughter)? His pride you could have got… he could’ve got a hundred wives around him, if he wished,
• 13:00 - 13:30 but he went for this person who means so much to him. Moderator: Yes, yes, moving on… Sadhguru: No, no, you must see the words that he has uttered (Laughter/Applause). You must see the words he uttered about Sita – what she means to him. How he cried to Lakshmana, and what he said. Moderator: Sometimes actions are way more important than… Sadhguru: Why are you reading all these evil intentions in his mind (Laughter), that he did not express anywhere? He did not express… Moderator: With our words we can say anything which… Sadhguru: See, as far as you are concerned, you know only what you read.
• 13:30 - 14:00 You don’t know anything else about his life, neither me nor you (Applause), all right? Moderator: Perfectly all right. Sadhguru: So from what you read, nowhere does it say that he was insecure, nowhere does it is say, he went for his pride. Moderator: Nowhere does it say that he… Sadhguru: No, no, everywhere it says very clearly. Let me tell you, the reason why he is worshipped today is though life threw disasters after disasters at him, the man never became resentful, never became hateful, never became angry. He did not become a recluse, either.
• 14:00 - 14:30 He went about fulfilling every duty that he has to do, with a personal pain and grief that he is carrying all his life. The man went about doing the best he can do for his praja of the day. If this is being accused of being as pride and this (Applause)…