Dr. Desmond Ford and Walter Rea Interview on the John Ankerberg Show (1982)

Summary

Highlights

• Dr. Desmond Ford challenges the investigative judgment doctrine, emphasizing faith and grace. 📖
• Reverend Walter Rea reveals Ellen G. White's extensive literary borrowings, sparking controversy. 📚
• The discussion highlights a split between traditional views and modern interpretations in the church. 🕊️
• There's a strong call for aligning church teachings more closely with scripture. 📜
• The episode underscores the tension between maintaining tradition and embracing reform. 🔄

Key Takeaways

• The Seventh Day Adventist Church is at a critical crossroads, questioning long-held beliefs. ⛪
• Ellen G. White's role and writings are under scrutiny, particularly her borrowings from other authors. 📚
• The investigative judgment doctrine faces criticism for its theological implications. ❓
• Leaders and scholars are debating the balance between tradition and scriptural authority. ⚖️
• There's a call within the church for a broader acceptance of the gospel, focusing on faith and grace. ✝️

Overview

Chapters

• 00:00 - 01:30: Introduction and Background Tonight on the John Ankerberg Show, the focus is on the critical juncture facing the Seventh Day Adventist Church, known for Saturday worship, vegetarian lifestyle, and impressive medical facilities.
• 01:30 - 18:00: Dr. Desmond Ford's Interview The chapter titled 'Dr. Desmond Ford's Interview' discusses a significant moment in the history of the 7th Day Adventists Church. This chapter introduces an interview setting intended to uncover the direction the church might take during a pivotal time. Various prominent figures such as Dr. Neil Wilson, Dr. Robert Olsen, Dr. Victor Cooper, Mr. Warren John's, and Dr. William Johnson were invited to speak for the church but declined. Instead, John plans to interview two leading spokespersons within the Adventist community to explore potential outcomes and decisions affecting the church's future.
• 18:00 - 30:00: Walter Rea's Interview The chapter titled 'Walter Rea's Interview' covers discussions on biblical authority, writings of Ellen G. White, and charges against the church's fund misuse. It features Dr. Desmond Ford, a respected Adventist theologian and author, who has an extensive academic background including a PhD from Manchester University and a history of teaching in Adventist colleges. He has authored nine books and numerous articles, contributing significantly to Adventist doctrinal discussions.
• 30:00 - 45:00: Ellen G. White's Writings and Plagiarism Issues The chapter examines the issues surrounding Ellen G. White's writings, focusing on allegations of plagiarism. It features a discussion led by John, with guests from the Biblical Research Institute, and Reverend Walter Ray, a noted scholar and author. Reverend Ray, known as a leading authority on White's works, provides insights into the controversy, detailing how these issues are impacting Seventh Day Adventism. The discourse highlights how these concerns have recently caught the attention of the media.
• 45:00 - 60:00: Theological Implications of Investigative Judgment The chapter discusses the theological implications of the investigative judgment, focusing on a major doctrinal issue within the Seventh-Day Adventist Church. It highlights a significant debate sparked by Dr. Ford regarding Ellen G. White's interpretation of the sanctuary explanation of 1844. This theological questioning is described as a metaphorical bombshell impacting the church's doctrine.
• 60:00 - 75:00: Q&A Session: Challenges in the Adventist Church In this chapter titled 'Q&A Session: Challenges in the Adventist Church,' the discussion opens with a question aimed at clarifying the beliefs of the Seventh Day Adventist Church, particularly concerning the sanctuary explanation of 1844. This is posed for those unfamiliar with the doctrine, as an essential context for understanding Adventist theology. The speaker acknowledges the question and agrees to provide background information to illuminate why this doctrine is critical within the Adventist faith tradition.
• 75:00 - 90:00: Q&A Session: Validity of Seventh-day Adventism In this chapter, a devout member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church expresses a desire for the church to fully align with scripture, reflecting the core principles of the Reformation. The speaker values the church's existing contributions, particularly its emphasis on hope and faith amidst a time perceived as hopeless, but stresses the importance of scriptural harmony and the doctrines of the Reformation, including justification by faith and the priesthood of all believers.
• 90:00 - 99:00: Conclusion and Final Thoughts The conclusion of this chapter explores the Adventist doctrine of the heavenly sanctuary, emphasizing the belief that Jesus Christ entered a second phase of ministry in 1844, known as the investigative judgment. This doctrine is contrasted with the Reformation's principle of salvation by grace alone, raising perception issues for some believers.

Dr. Desmond Ford and Walter Rea Interview on the John Ankerberg Show (1982) Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 Tonight on the John Ankerberg Show, the topic is 7th Day Adventism at the crossroads. Many people know the Adventists as the people who go to church on Saturday. Others know them as the people who don't eat meat. And they are perhaps best known for their outstanding hospitals and clinics. But the Seventh Day Adventist Church is in turmoil and stands at the most critical
• 00:30 - 01:00 crossroads in its history. Which way will this great church go? Those invited to speak for it but declined the invitation were Dr. Neil Wilson, president, General Conference of 7th Day Adventists, Dr. Robert Olsen, chairman the LG White Estate, Dr. Victor Cooper, associate director, General Conference of SDA, Mr. Warren John's, associate editor, Ministry magazine, and Dr. William Johnson, associate editor, Adventist Review. To help us uncover the answers, John will interview two of the leading spokesman in the Adventist
• 01:00 - 01:30 Church. They'll discuss issues of biblical authority, the writings of Ellen G. White, and recent charges of the church's misuse of funds. John's first guest is the widely respected Adventist theologian, author, and pastor, Dr. Desmond Ford. Dr. Ford received his PhD from Manchester University, England, and has served as a theology professor at several Adventist seminaries and colleges. is the author of nine books and many articles published in Adventist journals and has sat on the highest doctrinal body of the
• 01:30 - 02:00 church, the Biblical Research Institute. Reverend Walter Ray is John's second guest. He is a scholar, author, and pastor. Reverend Ray is recognized as the leading authority on the writings of Ellen G. White and has written more concerning her works than any other person. Now, let's join John and his guests to examine Seventh Day Adventism at the crossroads. As of today, as of the taping of this program, this is now hitting the news
• 02:00 - 02:30 stands. And here it says that uh of the 3.8 million member 7th Day Adventist Church. A couple of bombshells have been dropped. And one of those bombshells is a theological bombshell that Dr. Ford uh in part uh you are responsible for or have at least brought up. And quoting time, it says this, that Ellen G. White's sanctuary explanation of 1844, in your opinion, is
• 02:30 - 03:00 no longer able to stand up to the light of the Bible. And let's start with that. For all of us that are not 7th Day Adventists, would you please explain a little bit about what uh this sanctuary explanation of 1844, what it is for those of us that are not part of Seventh Day Adventism. Gladly, John, if I may just give a moment of background. You said you are not a 7th Day Adventist. I accept that
• 03:00 - 03:30 apology. I am one and I love the church, but I want to see it come in full harmony with scripture. Adventists have long claimed to be the heirs of the reformation and the reformation was based on the primacy and the adequacy and the sufficiency of holy rit. It was based on the priesthood of all believers and was based on justification by faith. And I want to see my church come into full harmony in these areas. I believe the church has made a great contribution in Christendom. It stress on the blessed hope and an age of hopelessness. It
• 03:30 - 04:00 stress on the law and an age of lawlessness. But the sanctuary as usually presented by 7th day Adventists seems to many to be a threat to the Reformation doctrine of salvation by grace alone. Okay. What is it? The Adventist sanctuary doctrine affirms that in 1844 our Lord Jesus Christ entered the second apartment of the heavenly sanctuary or as some would say entered upon a second phase of his ministry. This being a work of investigative judgment, a work that has now been in procedure for over 140
• 04:00 - 04:30 years, which is to determine who shall be saved and who shall be lost, a review of the saints, the way it is often presented, has taken assurance from the vast membership of the church. For those who are not Seventh Day Adventists, let's pause here to clarify what Dr. Ford just said. 7th Day Adventists believe Daniel 8:14 supports their view that Jesus moved from one compartment of the heavenly sanctuary to another. In
• 04:30 - 05:00 1844, at that point, Jesus began an investigative judgment of all Christians. Ellen White wrote, quote, "Attended by heavenly angels, our great high priest enters the Holy of Holies and there appears in the presence of God to perform the work of investigative judgment and to make atonement for all who are shown to be entitled to its benefits." But a number of Seventh Day Adventists like Dr. Ford are questioning
• 05:00 - 05:30 this. They believe the Bible teaches that atonement was completed at the cross through the shed blood of Christ and that believers sins are forgiven once for all at the moment of salvation. However, Ellen White has written, quote, "The blood of Christ, while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel the sin. it would stand on record in the sanctuary until
• 05:30 - 06:00 the final atonement. She also wrote, again quoting, "In the new covenant, the sins of the repentant are by faith placed upon Christ and transferred in fact to the heavenly sanctuary. The actual cleansing of the heavenly is to be accomplished by the removal of sins which are there recorded. But before this can be accomplished, there must be an examination of the books of record to
• 06:00 - 06:30 determine who through repentance and faith in Christ are entitled to the benefits of his atonement. But some 7th day Adventists like Dr. Ford point out that God has removed forgiven sin as far as the east is from the west. Why then they ask must there be an any further investigative judgment by Christ based on past sins to determine a believer's salvation? The key question that emerges
• 06:30 - 07:00 is this. Is salvation by faith alone, that is faith in Christ whose life and death satisfies God's demands, or is it by a mixture of faith plus works, that is faith in Christ who only gives me strength for me to go out and live perfect so he can later finally approve me. The way it is often presented has taken assurance from the vast membership
• 07:00 - 07:30 of the church. Very few Adventists comparatively rejoice in the known possession of eternal life now in harmony with John 5:24 that he who believes has eternal life. You usually Adventists think that if they can get through that tremendous hurdle of their name passing through the investigative judgment that if their characters are found in harmony with the law of God, they can make it. If I I can read three lines from a president of the general conference on the point. This is what he wrote in drama of the ages. This was
• 07:30 - 08:00 Branson, Elder Branson. A Christian who through faith in Jesus Christ has faithfully kept the law's requirements will be acquitted. There's no condemnation for the law finds no fault in him. If that's true, we're all done for. Okay, let let's let's go back. Uh I think you lost a few of us here. The first one first thing I was thinking about is why do we even need a sanctuary doctrine? For Seventh Day Adventists, the sanctuary doctrine grew out of the Miller Revival, the Advent revival in 1844, a Baptist pastor who was
• 08:00 - 08:30 responsible for the resurgence of premillennialism. The doctrine that Jesus Christ would come before the millennium, which was quite contrary to the postmillennialism of the day in an age of progress. It was taken for granted. The world would get better and better for thousand years, then Jesus would come. Miller Miller was a skeptic. That's right. Then found the Lord. Under his own study, he came up with the idea that the Lord was coming back in 184. An honest Christian who preached Christ, who preached the gospel, but sadly ultimately, not for years, ultimately
• 08:30 - 09:00 settled on a date of October 22, 1844 for Christ to come. Most people in the movement were opposed to dates. Okay. What verse did he get that from? From he felt it was found in Daniel 8:14 when linked with Daniel 9:24. Okay, read it for us. You got there. Daniel 8:14 in the KJV says, "Under 2,300 days, then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." And Daniel 9:24 speaks about 70 weeks are determined upon thy people. And Adventists have said the word determined means cut off from. So 490 years would
• 09:00 - 09:30 be cut off from 2,300. And both should begin with the date of Daniel 9:25, a decree to restore Jerusalem in 457 BC. How did William Miller pick the date of 1844 AD as the time Jesus would return to Earth? He made at least five wrong assumptions to do so. First, he assumed two unrelated passages of scripture, Daniel 8:14 and Daniel 9:24, were actually related. Second, in Daniel
• 09:30 - 10:00 8:14, he assumed that the 2300 days mentioned could mean 2300 years. He was wrong. The Hebrew literally reads 2300 evenings and mornings which total 1150 whole days. Third, he further assumed from Daniel 8:14 that in the words then shall the sanctuary be cleansed that the sanctuary stood for the whole earth and cleansed stood for Jesus leaving heaven
• 10:00 - 10:30 and coming to earth. Again, he was wrong. The Hebrew word for cleansed literally means vindicated. Fourth, in the other verse, Daniel 9:24, he assumed that when the 77s or 490 years were decreed, the word decreed could be translated cut off from. He was wrong. The Hebrew literally means decreed or determined. He further postulated the
• 10:30 - 11:00 490 years mentioned here were cut off from the 2300 years postulated in the other passage of Daniel 8:14. Fifth, from these two non-related texts, he joined his wrongly translated words in those texts to assume he knew when the 2300 years began and when they would end. This postulated date mixed with his assumptions that the cleansing of the sanctuary stood for Jesus coming to
• 11:00 - 11:30 earth led Miller to wrongly conclude that Jesus would come back to the earth on October 22nd, 1844 AD. Later in a vision, Ellen G. White claimed it was revealed to her that Jesus did not come to earth or the earthly sanctuary as she called it. Rather, on October 22nd, 1844, Jesus changed his location in heaven and entered the heavenly sanctuary or the holy of holies. The
• 11:30 - 12:00 event did not take place, of course. Great disillusionment. Great disillusionment. Not not the extreme going up on hilltops and ascension robes. All that has been debunked long ago by historians, but nevertheless, tremendous disillusionment. And Adventists who felt the Lord had led them sought for an explanation. Those that became seventh day Adventists came up with the explanation after 13 years after 13 years in 1857 came up with the explanation investigative judgment that at that time Christ had come not to earth but to the most holy place of
• 12:00 - 12:30 heaven to do an antiypical work of judgment as prefigured by the day of atonement. In other words that would you say that was a face saving device? Most theologians from outside looking at it have drawn that conclusion particularly in as much as Adventists had several other explanations. Shut door going into the marriage receiving the kingdom. There are a number of other theological devices that were tried for a while found wanting and given away before this one was adopted. James White, husband of Ellen White, opposed this one in print
• 12:30 - 13:00 in the church paper when it originally came out. But in 1857 it took control. Okay? And so Jesus was supposed to come back to the earthly sanctuary or the earth. He didn't come. And so was it Ellen G. White that said no Ellen White did not devise a single doctrine of the Adventist church but she did write on it after it had been accepted by the church. Okay. But she accepted and uh what would you say promulgated? She endorsed it. She she endorsed it that Jesus had not come to this sanctuary but
• 13:00 - 13:30 had just switched compartments in the heavenly to begin a work of investigative judgment to see who would be saved when Jesus came. And this to most of the scholars of the church flies in the face of the everlasting gospel which says that we can have assurance of eternal life now that we have the verdict of the last judgment the moment we believe because Christ's merits and Christ's merits alone are the only issue in the judgment. Have we laid hold of them by faith? All right. What uh what in brief are the reasons that you have
• 13:30 - 14:00 uh found does not support that original interpretation? John, I am not an original uh thinker in this area. The things I am saying have been said by various men in the church for for nearly a century. Okay. Give us some of the things that they've been saying that would be solid evidence. Right. The major thing is this. There's only one place in the New Testament that speaks of the meaning of the two apartments of the Jewish sanctuary. That's Hebrews 9. There's only one place in the New Testament that discusses the cleansing
• 14:00 - 14:30 of the heavenly sanctuary. That's Hebrews 9. There's only one part in the New Testament that explains in detail the meaning of the antiypical day of atonement when the high priest went to the most holy place. That's Hebrews 9. This chapter embarrasses Seventh Day Adventists. No end. Of course, I'm generalizing. The scholars have known what I said for decades. This doctrine has not been taught at our university for decades. What have the scholars known all of these years concerning Hebrews 9 that seems to uh uh straighten us out in terms of what scripture is
• 14:30 - 15:00 saying about the two sanctuaries and the investigative judgment. John, to take the cross from the Christian is like blotting the sun out of the sky. And when the writer of Hebrews talks about the ancient sanctuary, he makes it all point to the cross of Christ. And when we come to Hebrews chapter 9, he opens the chapter by discussing the two apartments of the sanctuary. And if we look at verse six, he says that when everything had been arranged like this, the priest entered regularly into the outer room. There's the first apartment to carry on their ministry. But he's
• 15:00 - 15:30 going to talk about the second apartment all the way through. So now he has a butt. But only the high priest entered the inner room and that only once a year and never without blood. And then verse eight says, "The Holy Spirit was showing by this the way into the most holy place." That's the equivalent of the word inner room or second mentioned in verse 7. Now it's called the most holy place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first room was still standing. This is an illustration for the present time. In other words, Hebrews is saying
• 15:30 - 16:00 the first apartment represented the Jewish age. Verse 9 and 10 goes on to talk about the age of food and drink offerings, various carnal regulations that couldn't clear the conscience. And the writer of Hebrews says the first department represented the first era, the Jewish era when there was continual ministration that didn't achieve anything because the cross hadn't come. But that the second department when the high priest went through the veil into the presence of God where the shikina was where the ark was and the mercy seat where the blood was sprinkled that
• 16:00 - 16:30 represent our Lord Jesus Christ in the cross resurrection ascension event. So there's the first answer. The two apartments according to the New Testament the only place that discusses them are said to prefigure the two eras. One the Jewish not the era to 1844 as Adventists have said but the Jewish era and the second apartment not the era from 1844 but the whole Christian age. Now the second point the the meaning of the cleansing of the sanctuary. Verse 23. It was necessary then for the copies of the heavenly things to be cleansed with these sacrifices. But the heavenly
• 16:30 - 17:00 things themselves cleansed in parenthesis with better sacrifices than these. For Christ didn't enter a man-made sanctuary. There was only a copy of the true one. He entered heaven itself. And then in verse 25, nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again the way the high priest enters the most holy place every year with blood that's not his own. So here the writer says the cleansing of the earthly sanctuary on the day of atonement pointed forward to the time when Christ would cleanse the record the shadow of
• 17:00 - 17:30 sin which been cast into heaven through the ages of transgression of God's holy law that Christ would cleanse away that blot by shedding his own blood. The better sacrifice he entered heaven itself with blood you see and then it speaks about the sacrifice of himself in verse 26. So there's the second the cleansing the sanctuary is said to be fulfilled in the cross of Christ and Christ ascending into the most holy place. Now the third one the meaning of the day of atonement if we go to verse 12 of chapter 10 of chapter nine again chapter nine all three in chapter nine
• 17:30 - 18:00 he did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves these are what we used on the day of atonement but he entered the most holy place once for all by his own blood having obtained eternal redemption. So that is the parallel to verse 8. Only the high priest entered the inner room only once a year never without blood. Verse 12, he entered with blood but not goats and calves. The most holy place once for all having obtained eternal redemption. So the high priest's entrance on the day of atonement in the
• 18:00 - 18:30 second apartment is he is said to be fulfilled when our lord died on the cross and by virtue of his own blood entered into the presence of god on our behalf take him with with him legally the whole human race. So the moment I affirm by faith that he represented me, he substituted for me, that moment I am as close to God as he is and the law can no more condemn me than it condemned him because the great atonement has been offered. The atonement is complete. Salvation is procured. Sin has been blotted out. I have eternal life. So
• 18:30 - 19:00 long as I trust in the merits of Jesus, I cannot be lost. That's the gospel. So there are the three points. That John is a very important point of it's not just theological that Ford caused a dilemma in the Adventist does not believe nor does not teach nor has not taught that the atonement was complete at the cross that that experience comes at conversion with Christ at the cross. You see they separated it and to an Adventist technically philosophically I think his atonement is never completed till after
• 19:00 - 19:30 his judgment and the coming of Christ. The Adventist is tempted to hold his breath until he's gotten through the investigative judgment. This is not true of everyone because there are many people in the Adventist that do know the gospel. Can I only know the traditional teaching? Can I summarize it and see if I'm right or wrong here? Okay. When a person is converted under the teachings that you have been saying uh have not been correct. When they were converted, in one sense, they still weren't sure of heaven. They weren't
• 19:30 - 20:00 sure they were going to make it because of this doctrine. Correct. Correct. Which simply says that in 1844 Jesus started investigating people started going back on the records. And as he looked at those records, somewhere along the line, he was going to come up to you in the present. That's right. They could come into judgment at any time. When he did come to you in the present, what did he do? He would weigh my life in the balances of the sanctuary. Now, according to Even though you were converted already. Yes. According to the president of the general conference, Pastor Branson, unless my life is found
• 20:00 - 20:30 in harmony with the law of God, I'm a goner. And he says in one other place, I might quote him again, if it is found that one has broken even a single precept, and this transgression is unforgett unconfessed, he'll be dealt with just as if he'd broken all 10. So here, salvation even depends on good memory. And the and the the interesting thing is that it came to mean not only the ten commandments, but all of the ideas and concepts of Ellen G. life, which ties the problem. Okay. So, a person that was converted, he was still
• 20:30 - 21:00 looking toward this investigative judgment. Would he ever know while he's living? Usually, Adventists have said this would happen towards the end of time. But nevertheless, popularly in homalytic presentations, it has often been said, "Your name may come up at any time." And instead of the glad, joyous note that should characterize every Christian that knows the good news, so many earnest Adventists have been bowed down with guilt wondering where they're going to make it. And John, we have even said and argued theologically, you can remember that, well, maybe some of your probations have closed and you don't
• 21:00 - 21:30 know it. What a what a thought, you know. Yeah. In other words, playing the game. At that point, uh, if you're to be the progenitors, the the ones that advance the Reformation, it seems to me that you've picked up the, uh, very theology that the Reformation was, uh, working against. John, it it's, uh, that's correct. It can be said this way that the Council of Trent opposed the Reformation and began to talk about an infused righteousness, that God medically infused righteousness so man could be blessed and justified. In other
• 21:30 - 22:00 words, Christ when a conversion came into your life and gave you the power and you got to work it out after that. That's right. And tragically, that is been the theological belief of many Adventists. They think their sins were forgiven when they came in, but then they roll up their sleeves. They cooperate with God and get such a sanctification that that sanctification can meet the gaze of the lawgiver. You see, which ignores some people say, you know, but that that sounds just like the gospel I believe. Why are you saying that's not the gospel? Because the infinite law of God takes account of our motives. You know, it looks at every
• 22:00 - 22:30 drive even to desire sin as sin. It looks at our mixed motives. And you see that the teaching of the Bible on depravity says that it's not enough even if we keep the law from now on. One slip will fix us. One slip will ruin us. The law demands perfect thoughts, perfect desires, perfect motives from the beginning of your experience. None of us will ever have this to offer. Unless we're saved by grace alone, we'll not be saved. But you see the interesting thing too was that it emphasized that sin was an act not an attitude. It's an Old
• 22:30 - 23:00 Testament concept rather than a New Testament. So that many Adventists, faithful Adventists, good Adventists are really Old Testament believers, not New Testament Christians because they believe that sin is an act, not an attitude. Let let me see if we can get this into some other terms for people. Let's take the terms uh you know these big hairy theological words like justification and sanctification. Okay. What I hear you're saying is the seventh day Adventist got those words confused and turned them around. And let's put this in language for the layman. What is
• 23:00 - 23:30 justification? What is sanctification? Let's come up with an illustration here. Let let me say something first, John. It it's very difficult to put all Adventists in one bag because that would not be correct. There's a wide spectrum of Adventists. I'll hardly say anything tonight that a large number of our scholars would not say amen to in their hearts at least. See, so and we're going to bring this up though. You got 1.8 million Adventists. And how many of them are scholars? Well, an influential very tiny minority, but influential. How influential that the term justification,
• 23:30 - 24:00 it's the same word in the Greek as righteousness. And what it means is the verdict of a quiddle, the verdict of forgiveness, but more than forgiveness. The imputation, the recting to us of the merits of Christ. So we stand without guilt, spotless before God, as spotless as his own son. For as long as we believe in his son, you can never be lost while trusting the merits of Jesus. You are that justification is continual. It's over you like the like the cloud
• 24:00 - 24:30 that protected Israel from the sun. All your days made the point for illustration that it didn't take place inside of you. It took place outside of you. It is reckoned. It is external. My righteousness is in heaven. That's why I can't lose it so long as I'm trusting him. And sanctification quickly, sanctification. Sanctification is the fruit of it whereby the Holy Spirit comes in and begins that lifetime process of changing my life because God does not justify any he does not sanctify. He gives his gift with both hands. We're not talking about cheap grace. Obedience, the law of God is the fruit of salv, but it's never the root.
• 24:30 - 25:00 Now, with many Adventists, they've sadly taken hold of the pagan philosophy. If I'm good, God will love me. The gospel is the opposite. God loves you though you're not good. And if you believe it, you'll become good. And also this whole idea that I can be perfect once I'm converted. The New Testament knows nothing of of sinless perfectionism. The Bible says in many things we all offend. The Lord's prayer, forgive us our trespasses. You know, when none of us will ever outgrow it, but it's not willful sin. The Christian does not willfully cherish known sin. He hates
• 25:00 - 25:30 his sins. But knowing he's accepted, he's mainly there to overcoming it. Tonight on the John Ankerberg Show, the topic is 7th Day Adventism at the crossroads. Many people know the
• 25:30 - 26:00 Adventists as the people who go to church on Saturday. Others know them as the people who don't eat meat. and they are perhaps best known for their outstanding hospitals and clinics. But the Seventh Day Adventist Church is in turmoil and stands at the most critical crossroads in its history. Which way will this great church go? Those invited to speak for it but declined the invitation were Dr. Neil Wilson, president, General Conference of 7th Day Adventists, Dr. Robert Olsen, chairman the LG White Estate, Dr. Victor Cooper, associate director, General Conference
• 26:00 - 26:30 of SDA, Mr. Warren John's, associate editor, Ministry magazine, and Dr. William Johnson, associate editor, Adventist Review. To help us uncover the answers, John will interview two of the leading spokesman in the Adventist Church. They'll discuss issues of biblical authority, the writings of Ellen G. White, and recent charges of the church's misuse of funds. John's first guest is the widely respected Adventist theologian, author, and pastor, Dr. Desmond Ford. Dr. Ford received his PhD from Manchester
• 26:30 - 27:00 University, England, and has served as a theology professor at several Adventist seminaries and colleges. He is the author of nine books and many articles published in Adventist journals and has sat on the highest doctrinal body of the church, the Biblical Research Institute. Reverend Walter Ray is John's second guest. He is a scholar, author, and pastor. Reverend Ray is recognized as the leading authority on the writings of Ellen G. right and has written more concerning her works than any other person. Now, let's join John and his
• 27:00 - 27:30 guests to examine 7th Day Adventism at the crossroads. We're glad that you're here and gentlemen uh on the platform tonight. Uh you are written up in Time magazine as we do this show. And uh Walter Ray, they say about you in Time magazine. Ford's challenge was mild compared with a bombshell dropped by Walter T. Ray of Patterson, California,
• 27:30 - 28:00 a veteran pastor. Ray, in the course of PhD research, stumbled across some long buried writings by forgotten divines that matched huge swatches of Prophet White's books. And it goes on to say, Ry was the first to document the vast scale of borrowing from 75 assorted books on history, doctrine, and the Bible. And last April, Rey issued his full findings
• 28:00 - 28:30 in a book titled The White Lie. You're holding the white lie in your hand. For people that uh don't know who Ellen G White is, tell us who was Ellen G. White. Well, of course, I had no Adventist background, John. I was I came into the church. Uh I was a Christian before I was an Adventist, but I was not denominationally oriented. So when I became an Adventist, I became acquainted with Mrs. White, which is the 7th Day Adventist prophet. And I was always a
• 28:30 - 29:00 devote of Mrs. White began to read. She fascinated me. She covered all the doctrines from Genesis to Revelation and our Christologology and esquetology. mainly our main points of doctrine. And I had spent probably 25 years of my lifetime devoted to her study. I had written three books, Bible biographies, Old and New Testament, in which I had accumulated all of the published and unpublished works of Mrs. White and sent it out to the Bible houses of the
• 29:00 - 29:30 Adventists. They were used in all of our schools, universities, also the book of Daniel and Revelation. and all of her statements I could find. I had sent that out, but not commented on them merely because I felt that they were something special that had been given by divine revelation. Some critics have said I believed in verbal inspiration. I really don't believe that's correct. But I did believe they had authority and much more authority than anyone else that had written. Dez, would it be fair to say that the man sitting next to you has published more on LG White than anybody else? Walder Ray has done more research
• 29:30 - 30:00 on the origin of the LMG White writings than any person that's ever lived. So we're taking in not only contemporary Adventists but the Adventists over a century. That is certain. And you loved her, believed in her, knew her writings, published them. I think anyone who does that, John, is known in Adventism as a conservative. That is they they they really are a true believer. And I think I it's fair to say I was a true believer. Okay. And as you had these uh large pastors in different
• 30:00 - 30:30 places, people gave you books. What happened? The first book that came to my attention while I was in Florida from one of our eminent doctors, Dr. Crest, and gave me the book Sketches from the Life of Paul was written by Coney Baron Hen. And I naively started to read it and one of the members who was an older member knowledgeable said, "Well, that's the book that the Adventists uh would rather forget because uh Mrs. White's uh life of Paul or sketches from the life of Paul was largely uh taken from that
• 30:30 - 31:00 material. So I did a study and found that it the criticism was correct that there were similarities. What did you think when you saw that? I was shocked because we had been taught you have to understand what you're taught in Adventism at least in our generation. What were you taught? We were taught that Mrs. White was not influenced by outside sources. And uh while I never thought that through at the time it sounded logical. So that was one thing that bothered me. Where did you think that she got this? Well, she got it directly from God by revelation or inspiration without outside influences.
• 31:00 - 31:30 And second is in most of Mrs. White's council, she counseledled against all of min all of our ministers using outside sources. So as a theologian, I found it very difficult to get my degrees without reading all of this, you know, quote so far, so-called trash in the outside world. And uh we weren't supposed to to use this. Mhm. And so it was shocking to find from the standpoint, wait a minute, she was using what she condemned and said we shouldn't use. So your curiosity was at least awakened. It was at least
• 31:30 - 32:00 awakened. And I I began to correspond with the White Estate, which is the official organization for handling the doctrines of LG. White and I I expressed some of my concern and they said, "Well, these are not new concerns." And they pointed out that some had found us before. Then what? Then I moved to California and someone else gave me another book uh the on edge his old and new testament. I found that he also he was a converted Jew. He'd written on the life of Christ. Lo and behold I found that some of the format for patriarchs
• 32:00 - 32:30 and prophets written by Alan G. White had the same titles. I put them in the book and also that some of the statements were taken directly from. And this was devastating. In fact, I I used to say facitiously at that time the guilt was overwhelming and I used to do the study under the bed with the lights out because I was, you know, really nervous and and but I notified the white estate and uh they wrote back and and encouraged me in the study and I kept the letters and saying, you know, keep us informed. Uh although this is not new, we're interested in in some of
• 32:30 - 33:00 these angles. Well, I went to a public meeting and there some member of the white estate denied that there was any borrowing in the book Desire of Ages. By that time I had found a book by Hannah which is an English writer on the life of Christ. Mhm. And this was the most shocking of all. Why? Well, it was shocking because chapter after chapter she was plagiarizing or taking whole sections of that book and and paraphrasing it. So when a person says you can't find three or four ver uh sentences that she copied, this is deceitful. It wasn't the sentences that
• 33:00 - 33:30 she wanted to copy. So the white estate was saying that there was no borrowing and here you had all the books showing that it was. This is true. So what' you do? Well then I we asked for a meeting. We asked for a meeting with the scholars of the church and in January of 80 uh with picking and choosing we were allowed to sit before 18 scholars. And after two days those 18 scholars voted six motions. One was that the borrowing was more extensive than they had believed that it was really shocking. Second is that it should be brought to the attention of the church immediately
• 33:30 - 34:00 in seminars and study groups. Third, I should be given scholarly help to uh work it out into a printed form. Uh they had discouraged me from publishing anything. And that's important because when I went before the committee, I didn't have anything published. They said you should have this published and I said well you forbad it and don't think that you'll be the only ones that'll read it if I get it go to the trouble of publishing it. So I hadn't published. So they said well we'll help you get it in this form. And then they gave me a vote of thanks. Well, we were elated because we felt that this was a
• 34:00 - 34:30 problem that had long been overdue, had been discussed in scholarly circles. I will grant that scholars do have some benefits. Uh but uh nonetheless, the church as a whole had not known this and it is erroneous to say that the church has always known this. If they have always known it, why was I fired and why did they meet with me and why was the committee upset and why did they vote? So, they didn't. Well, within about 60 days, the president's advisory committee of the general conference wrote a letter which I uh put a copy I think in the
• 34:30 - 35:00 book and said, "Forget it. We'll take it from here. We'll notify the people what we think they should know and and uh you go back to your work as a pastor." And then what'd you do? Well, I wrote them a letter and said, "Well, it evidently the church has decided that I should not be the one. They felt that I was too harsh in my judgments and perhaps too negative in my approach or conclusion. So I said the church has spoken. I had a decision whether I wanted to stay with the system or get out. And I wanted to stay with the system and work within it. My purpose was to lower the voice in the
• 35:00 - 35:30 church and the administration on LG. White and to put Jesus Christ back in the center of the church where I felt it it really was wrong. And I felt that Mrs. White from my study and research had been a deterrent. She was the one that endorsed the 2,300 days that Dez talks about. She was the one that endorsed all the doctrines we held officially and therefore no one was allowed to go beyond the thinking and the the endorsement of Ellen G. White and plow new ground. So I merely wanted to lower and my premise was the five books that Adventists count on the
• 35:30 - 36:00 conflict series from Genesis to Revelation were thus came by human means rather than divine revelation. This they didn't want to accept. Walter, uh, you have touched on the writings of Ellen G. White. You've published more than anybody else. You've done more research in this area than anybody else in terms of Do you use the word plagiarism? I do. They don't. Define it for us. What is plagiarism? Uh, the first time I was
• 36:00 - 36:30 acquainted with the word was when John Dart from the Los Angeles Times wrote his article in November and said, asked me the question, did I believe that Mrs. White was a plagiarist? And I asked him his definition. and he said, "I take an amoral view." That is, I'm not imputing any good or bad motives to it. I'm merely saying that this is a person who uses others material and and use it as their own. I said, "In that case, I accept the word plagiarism." I still do. I think that word has been bantered around in in the case of Mrs. White for 100 years. G White is the lady that has
• 36:30 - 37:00 been known as the prophet with inside of Seventh Day Adventist. And it was her interpretation of Daniel chapter 8 on the sanctuary and the investigative judgment that when William Miller said Jesus was going to come in 1844 when Jesus did not come, Ellen G. White came on the scene and gave this interpretation and said Jesus actually wasn't talking about coming to this earth. He was talking about coming to the heavenly sanctuary just switching compartments. And at that point, 7th Day
• 37:00 - 37:30 Adventism was off and running and she was its leader. She was the one that spurred it on. Now, as time went along, how many books did she actually write? They claim something like 70 books. Uh that includes compilations, many of which are repetitive. Okay. These writings have been a source of authority supposedly not as authoritative as scripture but in actual practice held up to be the thing that gives you guidance in terms of what the scriptures are actually saying. Is that correct
• 37:30 - 38:00 statement? I think it's fair what Ford is trying to approach and that we we claim and rightfully so. Now I've proven that and this is what I couldn't understand. If you claim as administer that we did not get any of our doctrines from Mrs. White, why do you get upset when I prove that you're absolutely right? She got it from others. See, that's what I couldn't understand. And uh so she became an endorser of other ideas. The problem was we accepted the endorsement rather than the theology. All right. You wrote a book called The White Lie. Correct. Okay. Would you hold it up for us there? Inside of this book,
• 38:00 - 38:30 you have how many pages of just column after column where you put Ellen White's writing on one side and then you put the author that she copied it from on the other. Just going right straight down the page. 150 pages. 150 pages for anybody that wants to see it. Where can they get that book, Walter? Uh, it's published by M&R Publications in Turlock, California. Great. Where how can they get it? It's just box 2056. We'll put that up at the end of the of the program. Dez, you've also got a book that you This is the manuscript I wrote
• 38:30 - 39:00 for the church, nearly a thousand pages on on which my trial took place at Glacia View. And this book is also available from Desmond Ford Publications, Bullard Drive. That's BL L A R D Newcastle, California 95658. You may be putting it on. I'll put that on the screen as well. And we ought to say that that is basically your doctoral dissertation that you did with FF Bruce at Manchester. No, it does include some insights from it, but this is the doctrine. This is the document I wrote
• 39:00 - 39:30 for the church protesting against the traditional view. That's the cut down version, right? Only thousand pages. This is the whole thing. Okay. Yeah. And that's written specifically on what? This is covering most the doctrinal problems of 7th day Adventism which center around the misuse of Ellen White and the investigative judgment. Okay. Which you concluded she was wrong in her view. That's right. And you brought the denomination back to scripture. Yeah. I do not regard Ellen White as a doctrinal authority. She didn't regard herself as a doctrinal authority. Time and again
• 39:30 - 40:00 said only the Bible. But you're saying the scholars have always known that. They've known it for decades. But the reason they fired him was not because he had a different nuance in his idea. They could have accepted that had not Mrs. White endorsed and he was really challenging the endorsement of Ellen G. Yes. Ellen White was threatened by the presentation. Okay. And so we come back. How much was actually taken from other writers? How much have you found? Well, I think it's fair to say that in the latest ministry magazine of the denomination which the Time magazine talks about, they have for the first time in Adventism to my knowledge
• 40:00 - 40:30 admitted that there was a vast amount of material copied and they have said uh in their publication that they have found no book she wrote that does not show copy work. They have found her diaries also had copy work. They have found her visions also had copy work and that they figured it would take a decade to uh survey the at least 1,200 books they have at the present time to find out the extent of the copy work but it was
• 40:30 - 41:00 vastly more than what they'd seen. The the problem again was if they had confessed that or admitted it they don't like the word confession before the book the white lie had been put out perhaps there would have been no need for the white lie but they didn't do that. You actually approached the the LG White estate as well as the denominational leaders with the fact this is the way it is. It's not it was devastating to yourself personally. You were shocked when you found this out because you had always believed in her yourself. But then when you actually saw it, you said, "Okay, this is the way it is." And you didn't think it would be a disrupting of
• 41:00 - 41:30 7th day Adventism to say, "Okay, this is the way it was." She had some good points, she had some bad points. She wasn't inspired and inherent. She was an adviser concerning scripture and we should hold her that way and keep on rolling. Right. Actually, I they felt that it would be more disruptive if I printed the book than if they did. I consented to that. I said, "I'm willing for you to bring this material if you'll do it." But within 3 months, the Prexad letter said, "No, we will not do it." What is the Prexad letter? Well, the Prexad letter was the political arm of
• 41:30 - 42:00 the church which overrode the committee that sat with me and voted. What does PreadAD mean for people that don't know? president's advisory committee. That's what the man said. Okay. Mr. Pread and in the essence the letter says we'll go back to harvest in gathering or gathering money or whatever pastors do and we'll take it from here and so the church was not to know that was unacceptable to me. I do feel that people would have been less threatened and it could have been accomplished on a favor more favorable plane if the church had revealed by some method that which I
• 42:00 - 42:30 had to reveal. Evangelicals watching would say, "Hey, if you got Jesus, why is it so important that you have to have Ellen G. White in my view, which differs from Ford, we do not have Jesus. We have we have made Ellen White the Adventist savior. And I think that if we could lower the voice and get rid of the all ornone concept of Ellen White, then we could put Christ in the center of the church." You say that's right, Doug. John, he needs a bit of opposition. So, can I come on or two? Uh, Spurgeon once said, "He that doesn't read will never
• 42:30 - 43:00 be read. He that doesn't quote will never be quoted. He who doesn't use other people's brains shows he has no brains of his own. The early pages of his book on commentaries and commenting warns people not to read books from people that haven't read widely. I've written a dozen books at least nine and 10 of which have been published. And I read hundreds of books in connection with every book I ever write. But I have to be more careful in the 19th century. I can go into the stacks of the Library of Congress and in every area, history, religion, health, medicine, I find people using adnauseium stuff without
• 43:00 - 43:30 credit. It still happens today. Here, for example, is a Protestant writer very well-known JS Whale Christian doctrine using word for word. Another one that I've quoted in this page uh Bruner word for words without any quote marks whatever. That's Protestant writers today. Here's a Catholic. Uh here's Fton Sheen using word for word stuff from Chester again without quote marks. still happens but there is a difference in the 20th century we are more careful now it's quite clear that Ellen White recommended certain of the key books
• 43:30 - 44:00 that she most used she recommended them the church papers so I don't really think she was trying to hide too much furthermore there are many many quotes where she speaks about the duty of gathering scattered gems of truth from erroneous settings and putting them in right settings she said that even Jesus did that and today in scholarship we know there's not a phrase in the Lord's prayer that's original Jesus did gather out of a lot of rubbish and sawdust the gems and put them together. And Ellen White felt she was doing that. I do not believe Ellen White was a deceptive or a
• 44:00 - 44:30 cheat. I believe she's an honest Christian woman. But we have had a superstitious view about her as Adventists. And Walter is right. We have engaged in a type of idolatry which has been deleterious to Adventist Christian experience. The problem I find with that, John, is that she uh for example, it's all right for someone to copy. The problem was not copying would be Mrs. White claimed to be inspired. She claimed to be a prophet and she also really denied her bowing. Now the there let me read the ministry magazine saying that. Did Mrs. White make any attempt to conceal from Adventist? The answer is
• 44:30 - 45:00 no. She even urged some as Dez said to read. I'd like to let you see what kind of book she urged them to see. It wasn't the total one she copied from. But notice what they say on the next page. On the other hand, she did not generally draw particular attention to her use of other authors. I wish you had. I wish the church could produce one definitive statement ever in the life of Ellen C. wider James where she admitted openly that she was using someone else for that particular statement if she just said now Edersshin says or geeky says or Ferrar says but you see she never did
• 45:00 - 45:30 that so I think this is the problem however journals I do agree yes but now we're beginning to put space between the health journal and we're saying well it's possible that in her health journals now because some of the statements were ridiculous she wasn't speaking as a prophet she was speaking as a an editor and Arthur White is now saying this revolutionary idea de it's on tape And Bob Olsen is saying, "Well, perhaps we're going to have to distinguish between when she was speaking as a prophet and when she was speaking as a compiler or an author." Amen. Let's keep going. Yeah, we're
• 45:30 - 46:00 shifting from the superstitious view. Uh I do not think we should put Adventists in a little box by themselves. I find in fundamentalist America very superstitious views about the Bible, trying to prove the Bible by science. This sort of approach is making science greater than the Bible. The Bible is self- authenticating. And so I don't think you should put Adventist in separate camp. The fact is most of American Protestantism has a superstitious view about how the Bible was written. Okay. Of course, the thing that puzzled me there is that we claim and he's read it from questions on doctrine. We do not make Mrs. White canonical. But in every case, we go back
• 46:00 - 46:30 to the Bible to prove Mrs. White. I thought it was the other way around. We were to prove Mrs. White by the Bible. Instead, if Mrs. White says it, and we say, "Well, the Bible did that, too." You see, what would you say is the majority view of people concerning the Bible and Mrs. White? The majority view as a pastor of this church is unequivocally that Mrs. White is the authority. And if there is a question on biblical interpretation in our church, it is settled by the uh statements of Ellen G. White, not by the interpretation of the Bible. That's North America, not Europe. That's why it is out. That's why I'm out. And you
• 46:30 - 47:00 would want to see it change. Depends on the country where you are. It must change if you're going to put Christ. But you would want to see it change regardless. Oh yes, it must be in Germany. They don't even teach investigative judgment. I spoke to one of our key scholars from Germany. I said, "You teach the investigative judgment before you baptize people." He said, "Oh, no." You know, he went on to say something like this. 1844 is thought of as an American innovation. Okay, we'll come back to this in just a minute. Let's take a break right here. A few days ago, a friend wrote to request cassette tapes of this series.
• 47:00 - 47:30 In his letter, he said, "I want to share the tapes with some friends who are struggling with this very problem. I especially appreciate that you present the evidence so clearly and that it points to the truth of God's word." And that's the purpose of the John Ankerberg Show, to take a difficult issue and examine it in the light of God's word. If you'd like to share the programs in this series with a friend or use it for your own personal study, audio cassettes are available upon request for a contribution of $15. The address is the John Ankerberg Show, Box 8977,
• 47:30 - 48:00 Chattanooga, Tennessee 37411. Now, if you'd like to have the series in written form, printed transcripts are also available for a contribution of $5. And when you write, please be sure to give the name of this series so we know what to send you. The address again, the John Ankerberg Show, Box 8977, Chattanooga, Tennessee 37411. What about this thing too that the group is the exclusive group, the exclusive community in Christendom to
• 48:00 - 48:30 witness to Christ, the remnant? This is based on very poor exesus. Revelation 12:17 is speaking about a remnant yet to be developed. Questions on doctrine said that all faithful Christians are potential members of that remnant. But most small religious groups have a tendency to an inferiority complex which is compensated for by some extravagant claims. Adventists have been guilty in that area. But the things that Walter has just said do fit many parts of North America. But it shouldn't be thought
• 48:30 - 49:00 that this necessarily fits the whole world field. I know hundreds of min I've trained hundreds of ministers in part and they do know the gospel and they do speak of Jesus. What Walder says is true in many are. It's not necessarily true of all of Adventism. The problem that I have noticed in preparing for this program before you men arrived was to meet with men in this area and I'm not going to name names because they felt they could lose their job. They know the gospel. Yes. They're afraid to say it.
• 49:00 - 49:30 Thousands of Adventist ministers know the gospel and many of the leoty know the gospel in Australia. You taught most of the guys that are in the clergy there in Australia. Yeah. Okay. Taking all of this, what hope do you see for the future? If the church will be honest to God and get down the biblical evidence. There's not a no basis for 1844 as a biblical datam. The scholars know it. The church needs to admit it. If the church will be honest to God, God will bless the church. It has much to offer the Christian world. If the denomination takes the next step and hardens up the line and makes LG White an extra
• 49:30 - 50:00 scriptural source of authority, which is a possibility, denies justification by grace alone in the sense that the investigative judgment stays in there. We become a cult if we take those two steps which deny the gospel. I'd just like to make a few comments about Seventh Day Adventism at the crossroads. In 1957, evangelical leaders such as Walter Martin and Harold Lindel
• 50:00 - 50:30 approached those in the leadership of the Seventh Day Adventists. They wanted to know what Adventists really believed in order to determine if they should be classified as truly Christian in doctrine or whether the Seventh Day Adventist Church was merely a cult. Now, the evangelical leaders asked two key questions. First, do seventh day Adventists hold LG. White to be equal in authority with the Bible and second, do they really believe in justification by
• 50:30 - 51:00 faith? The Adventist reply came back in the book entitled Questions on Doctrine. In it, they said the Bible was their final authority in matters of belief and that a person was justified by faith in Christ. Now based on this response, many evangelicals accepted the Adventists as Christian brethren. But immediately inside the 7th Day Adventist denomination, questions on doctrine was challenged. In 1980, the denomination
• 51:00 - 51:30 appears to have elevated Ellen G. White's interpretation of scripture to a position equal in authority with scripture itself. Now it seems she is the only authoritative interpreter of scripture for Adventists. Now this crucial decision by the leadership of Adventism has forced evangelical leaders to re-evaluate. It's the consensus of those with whom I've talked that if in belief
• 51:30 - 52:00 and practice the Adventist leaders abide by this decision, they will have turned their great church down the road to being a cult by denying the basic tenants of the Christian faith.
• 52:00 - 52:30 Tonight on the John Ankerberg Show, the topic is 7th Day Adventism at the Crossroads. John's first guest is the widely respected Adventist theologian, author, and pastor, Dr. Desmond Ford. Dr. Ford received his PhD from Manchester University, England, and has served as a theology professor at several Adventist seminaries and colleges. He is the author of nine books and many articles published in Adventist journals and has sat on the highest doctrinal body of the church, the Biblical Research Institute. Reverend
• 52:30 - 53:00 Walter Ray is John's second guest. He is a scholar, author, and pastor. Reverend Ray is recognized as the leading authority on the writings of Ellen G. right and has written more concerning her works than any other person. Now, let's join John and his guests to examine 7th Day Adventism at the crossroads. Now, we come to questions and answers from the audience and uh the last couple weeks I've been meeting with
• 53:00 - 53:30 uh people within 7th Day Adventism. And gentlemen, uh, from what you've been saying, as well as from what my first man who's going to ask a question here has been telling me, there is some hesitancy among even asking a question publicly about the things of Ellen G. White, the writings and so on. Uh, why are you hesitant to even ask a question or to maybe ask a question just of inquiry? Well, largely because of the uh
• 53:30 - 54:00 prejudicial views some people will hold that if you have anything at all to say that maybe uh cast doubt upon what the church has done then your head can be on the chopping block. You can be suspected of being a heretic, a dissident and so on. And uh right away you may find people that you thought were friends are no longer friends. Is this widespread in our country? It is widespread. John, I'd like to to speak to that for just a moment because I think it's tremendously important. Dez and I, we we joke a little, but we're not as opposed as we
• 54:00 - 54:30 might seem in a lot of areas, but in this area, I think he does recognize, as I do, that's there is a a tightening and a hardening of the lines in Adventism that is almost unbelievable, and we've both seen this. That is I have been banned as well as de from all of the colleges including our university. Men in the theological department that should know and should talk with us and should be knowledgeable to meet whatever objections there might come are not allowed to meet with us. They're not even allowed to be here tonight. In fact, the very presence of this man
• 54:30 - 55:00 might jeopardize. And to prove that, let me read a letter that has just come. It's a confidential letter from a conference in Africa, but I could duplicate this in America, in Australia, and other places. Notice what it says. It says unauthorized tapes and literature. Whereas there's been an influx of tapes and literature distributed to our members and workers. Dez tapes, my tapes. How many does? Well, there's at least half a million in America of mine. Uhhuh. And I can see why they'd have their finger on you. Whereas whereas the contents have been questioned with regard to its conformity
• 55:00 - 55:30 to the fundamental beliefs of the church voted that a conference tape and screening committee be appointed to screen tapes and literature that have not been promoted or compiled by the regular denominational sources. Should it be brought to the attention of the conference committee that any worker has questionable tapes in his or her possession which are being circulated among other workers and members, the committee would view this in a serious light and would no doubt take suitable action. This is almost unbelievable. Whose desk did that come from? This came
• 55:30 - 56:00 from the office of the president of that particular conference in Africa and and I have others that have come from Australia invoking the name of the general conference. Before you go on further, you still want to ask a question? Well, Hang think about it, Dez. What do you got there? Books like these, our root causes the problem. A book like this makes ordinary people. This is a book by an Adventist lawyer, an able writer who has suggested that a prediction of Ellen White about apostasy, which he named by the last letter of the Greek alphabet, the omega,
• 56:00 - 56:30 is now being fulfilled in such things as Ford and Ray. It does not name Ford and Ray, but when Smutz Vanroyan, who works with us, sent a personal inquiry to the author, he did not deny it. And this book causes church members to look at each other because it seems to suggest that there are demons in human form in Adventist pews. And you see that creates quite a problem. And the church is promoting this book even though its scholars and its archavists have rejected it and said it has many errors historical and the and theological. Now
• 56:30 - 57:00 I must admit there are many in the general conference that are now opposed to the book and regret it has ever been advocated. But sadly the review and herald has now put out a second book by the same author. The review is the publishing association that's most prominent in Washington DC for America. Official organ of the church. Official organ of the church. And this book is being sent out free to the ministers with such statements as this. Some of the areas under attack right now are the validity of the spirit of prophecy, the scriptural basis for the doctrine of the sanctuary, particularly investigative judgment, and even the place of the ten
• 57:00 - 57:30 commandments and the Sabbath. These from influential people of our own number. So it is a sense of paranoia that these books are fostering that do cause uh difficult relations in the churches. But may I add this before you cut me off because you have much to add. The problems in Adventism don't just grow out of Seventh Day Adventism. They grow out of humanity. And similar problems are found in every church group that I know of that has any life in it. Parasites only are attached to living things. Some churches in the past have
• 57:30 - 58:00 been so dead you couldn't get a heresy in. You know, wherever there's an excitement over heresy, there is still life. Now, in dispensational groups in this country, you can't get in the lecture circuit if you deny the pre-tribulation rapture in many areas. So, please let's not think these problems are because of Adventism. They come from humanity. Adventist human natures no worse than other human nature and no better and no better. Okay. I think that we would agree with that and I think we're sorry to hear it in any any but it's widespread. It's not just advent. Well, we ought to lighten it up
• 58:00 - 58:30 a little. This came from Australia. It says, "Coming soon to your friendly Adventist book center, Omega." And that's the one that he's talking about, which uh I paraphrase and say that its main thrust is if anybody has an IQ of over 85, they're a threat to the Adventist church. And I put I in a picture on the back. I won't touch that one. Let's move on. What was your question? My question is this. I think uh Dr. Ford touched on the humanity of it. Could it be that the church administration is so upset over this whole situation? Uh
• 58:30 - 59:00 mainly because they are losing their ability and power to manipulate people because so often as in well other Protestant circles and so on, you may superstitely superstitiously quote scripture in an attempt to manipulate someone. Uh whether it be for collecting an offering for something or whether it be uh in communion or house guest or whatever else, there's always been this application of scripture. so binding as to uh be used as a weapon, as a tool.
• 59:00 - 59:30 And now that uh you have, shall we say, brought to light some different perspectives, the uh church administration is greatly threatened because suddenly their power and ability ability to manipulate diminishes. I think both Ford and I agree in this area that there's been a vast abuse of Ellen G. White. Correct. And I think both of our crusades are that we would like to make them free in Jesus Christ, in the gospel of Christ. diminish Mrs. White to whatever role God led her play but not make her the authority in faith and
• 59:30 - 60:00 doctrine. Amen. And thus they would lose control. But we believe that the control comes through the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ, each man in his own priest before God rather than a system that says you must do this or you'll be thrown out. Is there a fear that you won't have Seventh Day Adventism if you get rid of LG White? They fear this. I don't. They Why Why would somebody fear that you won't have it? What they fear is they'll lose the control such as we're seeing. Of course, you would lose some of your major pillars too, your distinctive doctrines that may No, they
• 60:00 - 60:30 didn't originate with Ellen White. No doctrine of the Adventist church came with Ellen White, but you still hold it. They could change. Let us say the wrong use of Ellen White is used to support them. John, let me add before the question comes, please. It would be quite wrong to say that all the administrators are in some terrible scheme to keep the people down. Administrators are like the rest of us. They're a mixed group. And all of us here now Adventist min administrator we could live and die with. See, but uh they're they're like the people in the pew and the ministers. They're a mixed group and sometimes temptation can be overwhelming. You're also on your way to Washington to talk with the
• 60:30 - 61:00 administrators, aren't you? The brethren asked me to go there last week and I I have talked with them. They have told us where they're unhappy with us and we've told them where we're unhappy with them and we're good friends still. A few days ago, a friend wrote to request cassette tapes of this series. In his letter, he said, "I want to share the tapes with some friends who are struggling with this very problem. I especially appreciate that you present the evidence so clearly and that it points to the truth of God's word." And
• 61:00 - 61:30 that's the purpose of the John Ankerberg Show, to take a difficult issue and examine it in the light of God's word. If you'd like to share the programs in this series with a friend or use it for your own personal study, audio cassettes are available upon request for a contribution of $15. The address is the John Ankerberg Show, Box 8977, Chattanooga, Tennessee 37411. Now, if you'd like to have the series in written form, printed transcripts are also available for a
• 61:30 - 62:00 contribution of $5. And when you write, please be sure to give the name of the series so we know what to send you. The address again, the John Ankerberg Show, Box 8977, Chattanooga, Tennessee 37411. The 7th Day Adventist Church originally gained credibility in evangelical circles back in 57 when Walder uh m excuse me, Walder Martin and Donald Barnhouse approached the church to ascertain whether Adventists were Christians.
• 62:00 - 62:30 uh Walder Martin and Barn House concluded that Adventists were Christians, but those were based on deceptive answers that they received from the denomination. My question today is uh based on what we know about the pillars of the church in 1844, are uh Adventist Christian or a 7th Day Adventist uh the denomination a cult like uh the Jehovah's Witness or the Mormon church would be considered. Can I say something, John, and answer that? All right. The vast majority of the men that teach our ministerial students and other students in the colleges in
• 62:30 - 63:00 America, Australia and other countries very much believe in the basic fundamentals of the Christian gospel. They believe in the trinity. They believe in the deity of Christ. They believe in the substitutionary death of Jesus. They believe in his virgin birth. They believe in his second coming. So on those fundamental pillars of the faith, the vast majority of the teachers are agreed. The same would be true with a large number of the ministry, particularly those who've been trained at these institutions. However, as the questioner implies, there's also a group which would have questions in some of
• 63:00 - 63:30 these areas. But year by year, it is a lessening group. It is true to say Adventism has been on advancing ground. It has thrown out error after error in its period of existence. I could I could name about 20 of them beginning with the the positions that like Aryanism and denying the Trinity. Aranism is the denying that Christ is actually God. Yes, that's right. Early Adventists, many of them held these views, an incomplete atonement. Many of these positions have been repudiated the years go by. I want to follow up on that question though and press you though. Okay, let me press you. Yes. Do you feel
• 63:30 - 64:00 that the majority of the hierarchy right now believes that Jesus Christ lived a sinless life? Yes, definitely. But you would have to admit that some are teaching other things right now. Well, unfortunately, there are some who have believed that Jesus had a sinful nature and yet lived a sinless life. And that puts the heat on us because it means that we with a sinful nature are expected to have a similar attainment. And that's what really kills the gospel because it makes Jesus an example rather
• 64:00 - 64:30 than a savior. Okay. But if Walter Martin and Anthony Hokma Hokma said that 7th Day Adventist was a cult because he believed that Walter Martin was wrong in accepting this gentleman just said here a few moments ago the statements he didn't believe that it represented all seventh day Adventist. It didn't represent all seventh day adventist. It certainly represented the thinking majority of the scholars of the church but not all seventh day advenist. Let me give you a hypothetical. Let's go back to this thing. If the denomination takes the next step and hardens up the line
• 64:30 - 65:00 and makes LG white an extra scriptural source of authority, which is a possibility, denies justification by grace alone in the sense that the investigative judgment stays in there. We become a cult if we take those two steps which deny the gospel and you have a devaluation of Christ. Namely, he had a sinful nature. I do not think the church will ever do with Ellen White what you have suggested. But if if that's true, if they did, we would have left Protestantism. Protestantism is the Bible and the Bible only as the sole
• 65:00 - 65:30 source of authority for doctrine, which was a position that Ellen White personally held. Of course, I would like to comment as a pastor, John, and that is I found as a pastor that my people knew the what we call the red books would get much of their instruction and inspiration or whatever from Mrs. white, but they very seldom ever mention Jesus Christ as a moving force in their life or the peace or the fruits of the spirit that come only through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. And my concern always was as a pastor, look, you have
• 65:30 - 66:00 superseded. While technically Ford is correct in that we have declared since our inception that we believe in the Bible as the only rule of faith, in practice, every Adventist knows that Ellen White is still the one that must interpret that scripture or it's not accepted. I think this keeps us from the real gospel and the real personal experience of Jesus Christ. What about this thing? What about this thing too that the group is the exclusive group, the exclusive community in Christendom to witness to Christ, the remnant? This
• 66:00 - 66:30 is based on very poor ex Jesus. Revelation 12:17 is speaking about a remnant yet to be developed. Questions on doctrine said that all faithful Christians are potential members of that remnant. But most small religious groups have a tendency to an inferiority complex which is compensated for by some extravagant claims. Adventists have been guilty in that area. But the things that Walter has just said do fit many parts of North America. But it shouldn't be thought that this necessarily fits the whole world field. I know hundreds of
• 66:30 - 67:00 min I've trained hundreds of ministers in part and they do know the gospel and they do speak of Jesus. What Walter says is true in many are. It's not necessarily true of all of Adventism. The problem that I have noticed in preparing for this program before you men arrived was to meet with men in this area and I'm not going to name names because they felt they could lose their job. They know the gospel. Yes. They're afraid to say it. Thousands of Adventist ministers know the gospel and many of
• 67:00 - 67:30 the leoty know the gospel. In Australia, you taught most of the guys that are in the clergy there in Australia. Yeah. Okay. Taking all of this, what hope do you see for the future? If the church will be honest to God and get down the biblical evidence, there's not a no basis for 1844 as a biblical datam. The scholars know it. The church needs to admit it. If the church will be honest to God, God will bless the church. It has much to offer the Christian world. I think a lot of people want to know if the church goes the other direction. Let's say in the weeks ahead,
• 67:30 - 68:00 because we don't know at the taping of this program, you're to go see the leadership in Washington. You have both been defrocked in the sense that you cannot preach, you cannot meet on the campuses and so on. If your membership were to be taken away and these things that evangelicals have asked hoping that you would not say that LG White is as authoritative as the scripture that you would not okay that position will never be taken. You don't think that'll ever change? The church would never survive if it took that position because every man that teaches in the college almost is opposed to such
• 68:00 - 68:30 a position. The vast majority of ministry is opposed to such a position. It's not quite the same proportion in the administration, but there's a large number of administrators that are very much opposed to making Ellen White equal. Where I was going is that I've heard that that there were 120 educators and pastors that when you were fired over what you disagreed with, they too lost their jobs. And some of the men that were meeting with me in pretty solid positions, they knew that they were on the carpet for preaching quote
• 68:30 - 69:00 unquote just the gospel. Now, what I'm saying is uh uh I'm starting to feel with some of those fellas because they got families. They don't know what they're going to do next. It is tragic. It is tragic. The church must be honest to God is going to have the blessing of God. It must be. There's work to be done of repentance and restoration and change. know for many of the evangelicals that have been watching this program tonight uh I think that sad to say they have lumped the Seventh Day Adventists together with other cults that I could
• 69:00 - 69:30 name. All right, this program tonight hopefully in hearing you fellas talk about your desire to have the denomination turn to the pure gospel to see Ellen G. white as she herself as you see what she is saying be presented to the rest of the folks in your denomination is not equal in authority with scripture but as an adviser like Calvin or Luther to other denominations and that uh you your great
• 69:30 - 70:00 desire is to have that and for other evangelicals to pray that this would happen. Amen. Katr has said who was a leading theologian and an editor in our paper said that neither Ford nor Rey are enemies of the church. They come as a friend. I think he said it well. Okay, final question. I'd like to first make a statement, then ask a question. I'm a member of the board of trustees of Andrews University, which includes our seminary. I'm from out of town. I'm not from this area. But I'd also u I'm
• 70:00 - 70:30 concerned that Adventists are being uh portrayed in a wrong light tonight. I feel like most people in other churches feel like they can ask questions. I ask questions in my church. I've been on the board of Andrew six years. I'm not afraid of losing my job. I speak out on the board. We do have questions in the church going on today and especially regarding Sister White, as many people call her, Mrs. White. I feel like a lot of this is good for the church in in certain way. I think Dr. Ford
• 70:30 - 71:00 particularly, I think, is an honest man the way I perceive him. I hope that a lot of our administrators will tend to study into this. I'd like to ask Elder Ray, Pastor Ray, why he took such a derogatory view not only of Adventist but entire Christianom, speaking of the TV super salesman. When I do read Sister White's books, I I perceive love. I cannot love does not come through the book. When I I have read almost all of
• 71:00 - 71:30 Elder Ray's book, I get a feeling of hate, a feeling of being of something is coming through there is not love and it's not Christian. Okay. Why was it? My answer my answer to that is that in the critique that the church is promoting at the present time, the truth about the white lie, I think they make some very false statements. For example, the statement that he just said is that I make fun of all religion. Nothing could be further from the truth. I do declare that I make I I certainly look in a derogatory way on all systems that become a political system to use
• 71:30 - 72:00 the people's money to control them and to drive away the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen. So I would say that of Adventism or Mormonism or Catholicism or anything else. So I'm striking out in the book uh against that type of abuse. And I also say if they've read it carefully, there are many faithful, honest Christian ministers who do serve in that capacity. I think the book because they couldn't fairly deal with the evidence is now trying to smear my character. And this is characteristic of all who've come to where I have uh in
• 72:00 - 72:30 the past and it also is true for Ford at the present time. I think also the criticism that I'm getting in the mail 20 or 30 to1 from the layman are not saying what the administrators are saying. When I saw I could not get an honest hearing in the Adventist intellectual community by some scholarly method because the church defrapped the guru of gurus. The man who was known as
• 72:30 - 73:00 the spiritual head of of our theology who had two PhDs. The church left me no alternative but to meet one extreme with another. That's why I use the method that I did. However, I am finding that those who are honest enough to read the book the second time and the third time who can honestly speak out, you have yet to demonstrate to this group or to me or to anyone else that any man can honestly critique my book and give it favorable comment and publicity who's working for the denomination. When I find that
• 73:00 - 73:30 that's true, then I think you'll get a different criticism such as many people I have letters that are saying, you know, I appreciate the book. you have spoken uh forthrightly and honestly and the second time over it does present its message. So that's my own opinion. Okay, what we have to do is we're out of time here and for further conversation you fellows are willing to talk about this gladly and uh we open this conversation for you to return with hopefully some of the leaders and we would like to see
• 73:30 - 74:00 progress as other evangelicals that are looking in. We hope I hope that others that are my friends in other denominations that are that love the Lord will pray for the Seventh Day Adventist. John, opinions can be wrong, but love never is. That's got to guide us. All right. Good night. Thank you, gentlemen, for being with us. Would you mind if I asked you a question? Do you think you can hold the gospel and the concept of the
• 74:00 - 74:30 investigative judgment at the same time? If you say yes, then I assume you believe Ellen White was correct in telling us Jesus began his investigative judgment of all Christians in 1844. Now, if so, if Jesus were to investigate your life now, would you pass his test? Can you say that you're living perfectly right now? Remember, if you hold to the investigative judgment, it means that even though you have accepted Christ and
• 74:30 - 75:00 received his forgiveness, according to Ellen White, you are still not safe. You must use God's grace to clean up your life. Have you done that? What about every lustful thought, every harmful word, every wrong motive for service, every relationship in your family life? Can you say there have been no problems, no faults, no slips? Can you honestly say you have conquered your sins and are living perfectly right now? Are you ready for Jesus to investigate you at
• 75:00 - 75:30 this moment? If you say, "No, hey, I'm not living perfectly." Then it's possible you might be investigated by Jesus tonight, according to Ellen White, and you might be found wanting and you might lose your salvation forever. But let me ask you, is that good news? Is that the gospel that you hold? I hope not. The Bible says in Romans 5:1, "Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace
• 75:30 - 76:00 with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Now if we are justified that is judged or pronounced free from the penalty of our sin at that moment God judges me pronounces me free from the consequences of all my sin. But then where does it say he will judge me again? Where does it say that what God did because of Christ is not enough? What further test does God
• 76:00 - 76:30 impose on us? The only test in scripture is the gospel itself. Whether you will receive God's free gift of salvation or reject it. The gospel is God's gift. If I accept his gift, the Bible says that the Holy Spirit enters my life and seals me. There are no special groups who have special privileges because they do certain things that others do not.
• 76:30 - 77:00 Every person who believes in Jesus Christ is said to be one with him. Now, if you leave the Adventist church, can you still be saved? Yes. Jesus saves you because he loves you. God forgives you because of what Christ did for you, not because of where you go to church or whether you obey more Bible commands than others. The ultimate test is not keeping the Sabbath or which
• 77:00 - 77:30 church you attend. The ultimate test is have you accepted or rejected Jesus Christ's free gift of salvation. The Bible says if you have placed your faith in him, God looks at Jesus' work for you and declares forever you are free from his judgment. He gives you eternal life.