Ep. 014 I S.E.e What You Are Thinking

Summary

In episode 14 of the Social-Engineer podcast, hosts Dave and his panel delve into the nuances of non-verbal communication with guest Joe Navaro, a seasoned FBI veteran. The podcast kicks off with a casual chat about their recent activities and music collaborations before diving into Joe's expertise on body language. Listeners get a comprehensive insight into non-verbal cues and how they relate to fields like social engineering and personal safety. Joe Navaro shares fascinating stories and techniques from his FBI career that highlight the importance of body language in detecting deception and building rapport. The conversation even touches on how physiological changes can affect emotional states—a fascinating blend of psychology and practical application.

Highlights

• Joe Navaro's fascinating journey from Cuba to the FBI, using non-verbal communication as a survival tool 🚀.
• The importance of a baseline in reading body language accurately 📏.
• How micro-expressions play a role in communication and deception detection 🎭.
• Helpful tips on making people feel comfortable to increase communication and elicit information 🗣️.
• The practical use of body language in high-stakes negotiations and interviews 💡.
• A humorous take on Joe's real-life spy gadget adventures with GPS trackers 🎯.
• Discussion on mirroring as a technique to establish connection and trust 👫.

Key Takeaways

• Non-verbal communication is more than just body language. It includes emblems, colors, and body mechanics 🌟.
• Cultural and personal experiences significantly impact how we express non-verbal cues 🤔.
• Creating psychological comfort through non-verbals can increase trust and willingness to communicate 🤝.
• Simple techniques like exhaling can calm down an agitated person and foster better communication 🌬️.
• Mirroring behaviors and words can build rapport and make others more comfortable around you 🪞.
• Detecting deception involves looking for signs of isolation, urgency, and invasions of personal space 🔍.
• Making others feel comfortable can even make potential suspects open up and befriend you in professional settings 🕵️.

Overview

The podcast kicks off with a lively introduction as Dave shares his golfing adventures while hosting the show from the course. The crew indulges in a humorous banter about their new theme music, which sets a relaxed tone for the complex discussions to follow.

Joe Navaro joins the hosts and immediately draws listeners in with his personal story of immigrating from Cuba without knowing English. This experience, he shares, heightened his sensitivity to non-verbal cues—a skill that would become crucial in his career at the FBI. Joe illuminates the nuances of body language, sharing insights from his investigations and teaching listeners about the universal and cultural signals that affect communication.

As the conversation deepens, Joe reveals practical strategies for detecting deception and building rapport, drawing from his rich experience. The hosts engage with riveting stories and techniques, such as using non-verbals in negotiations and understanding micro-expressions. The episode wraps up with light-hearted reflections, leaving listeners both enlightened and entertained.

Ep. 014 I S.E.e What You Are Thinking Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 I'm going to every trick in the best get I'm going every trick the get you get a quick introduction for describing my side my face is forgettable The Regular Guy now I can be anyone anywhere I aim I just need the mindset a story and a name just started working here haven't got my badge yet my hard hat and clipboards the same as all access St to in a rooftop finish with my case soon taking people's lunches from the bags up in the break room talking my
• 00:30 - 01:00 story recited it with confidence make you feel at ease disregard your common sense now I'm in hope you're ready for the consequence cuz I'm picking lock slipping off with all your documents play the subconsciousness never regress got the technique set cashing every e check set them up knock them down premise [Music] with well welcome to the social- engineer. org podcast number 14 oh number 14 thanks Dave I tell you I was waiting for Dave but Dave like again you're
• 01:00 - 01:30 calling us from some crazy location what are you doing now I'm actually on the golf course right now it's raining though that's great that's great your golfing I'm golfing in the rain and I'm on the podcast yeah yeah it's a yeah you know Mak really epic is is if you got struck by lightning while on the podcast well I'm s I'm sitting here looking at the uh looking at the uh flag
• 01:30 - 02:00 here and I got a cigar in my mouth I'm just just enjoying the uh the nice times out here man geez man number 14 yeah thanks as you can tell our panel's with us it's Dave on the golf course and mut how are you doing man good man good and Jammer Elwood you're with us too how are you doing today I am okay well not as good as uh as Dave on the golf course huh
• 02:00 - 02:30 well you know hey I'm in an office not out on a golf course so oh then again I don't know how to play golf so I'm not sure that me being on a golf course would be so good that really wouldn't work too well for you either chase the gopher or something I don't know so hey I got a um I got a bunch of feedback on the new music uh we got a lot of people who like it like the Dual Core Music the uh the song that he he made for us called trust me all about social engineering the new intro music there so uh he released that as well as another track uh that everyone can get for free
• 02:30 - 03:00 on on their website dual music.com so I just wanted to give a shout out to them we'll do it at the end again so you can get that URL but if you're liking the new songs uh for the SE podcast and you want to you want to check out more of his stuff just go to uh dual corm music.com we need to get the show too I'm sorry we need to get them on the show I know we do you know this would have been a great opportunity um it's just the timing and everything didn't work out because you
• 03:00 - 03:30 know Dave really can't argue too much about when he was singing a song you know about how much he slapped Dave down at all in Vegas oh man he still owes us that one doesn't he he does he does you know we talked about it last month a little bit and Dave kept trying to play the Price's right music over it now that he's on a golf course with a cigar in his mouth probably driving a ball and he can't argue with us we can have a nice lengthy conversation about about Dave's inability to beat dual core and in uh and
• 03:30 - 04:00 oh yeah well I wouldn't uh I I wouldn't uh I wouldn't put it past uh Dave to have some uh backups in place you know that's true that's true I wouldn't put C them I really wouldn't we should we should at least invite Mato in or something and you know ask him to talk about how bad how bad Dave got pawned you know or something like that sure sure we need to do that we need to do it we'll bring the taable we'll bring Dore we'll have a bash Relic uh that'd be great podcast poor we love you Dave we
• 04:00 - 04:30 love you I love you too sorry I'm back I told you no I what happened I got full bars and all of a sudden I just got to drop a call must be that golf course now I don't know you know smoking a cigar interfered here's what I would say then don't listen to the first few minutes of the podcast okay what's this podcast about then Chris well before we get to that I got some news I want to talk about and then we'll get into that because uh we had a
• 04:30 - 05:00 lot of stuff happen over the last month we released the CTF report for the social engineering contest that how strong is your Schmo and um that kind of went ballistic I mean I think we're all a little shocked to still how many how many people are uh are talking about it news reports that came out all about it we've had um I don't have the exact number right here with me we were trying to obtain that but um I know we've had thousands of of downloads of the report
• 05:00 - 05:30 uh so far maybe I'll get a number and put it in the podcast notes uh if we decide to do that but it's it made it made so much news my my wife actually heard about and read through it really and I didn't yeah I mean I was telling her about it but then she heard it from someone at work and uh so she got interested and downloaded it you know it's it's crazy because it's like all over if you T if you just go to the web and you you look for it it's not just like in Hacker News places you know it's not like just dark reading and things like that it's it's all over U um you
• 05:30 - 06:00 know CNET CBS News it's just it's everywhere um that's funny too cuz I got my my family is not even in technology calling me and saying things like I saw this report that you're involved in what's this all about so son what have you done now yeah exactly what is this uh malicious report that you released on these companies that we might work for so um that's been pretty cool getting a lot of uh interest in the in the site um I think another big thing
• 06:00 - 06:30 that occurred is we had uh we had a lot of good feedback on the recent newsletters that have all been focused on neural linguistic hacking and um the the nlh thing kind of really took off as a lot of people are are curious about the the you know like the new terminology but also how it's being used in Social Engineering uh I was invited down to Texas to give a speech for a big bank on on that topic and uh and really was received very well I I was kind of not sure how well it would cuz the
• 06:30 - 07:00 people that were in the uh in the room all the people that were involved in in hearing the speech not all of them were like red teamers or social Engineers so I didn't know how it would be received but it came over really really well um as far as what they had to say about the speech afterward and the information and using it so there'll be a lot more on that I think coming up in the next uh newsletters and and as we continue forward with the SE org.org website and you know we never talked about that either M how we like we set up the the shorten ver and everyone was saying you
• 07:00 - 07:30 know we need something shorter than social-engineer org so we actually set up SE org.org to forward to it and and we never really talked about it so it was like five people that you about it or something I I I think I I might have but you know I was in the channel the other day and I posted a link and they're like oh is this a new site and I'm like no it's uh SE org.org goes to goes to the social told you tweet don't you remember well maybe I thought you said tweet I'm not sure I can't remember
• 07:30 - 08:00 so I might have got confused so anyhow here's the release of it you know SE org.org is the forwarding to that site and then I guess we will tweet about it tweet you huh that's a new one yeah that's a new one he he comes up with new ways all the time to use that word so you know cat I wonder I I wonder if we can get dual core can we get dual core to do like a a song on that a tweet song yeah yeah I don't
• 08:00 - 08:30 know yeah well I don't know if I want to try but we'll say so um let's see sponsors let's thank everyone of course much hates when I do this but offse SEC we can't uh thank you guys enough all of us here with the the offse SEC team all the support that we get with everything in the site and the podcast um CWC again um came through with us for those reports that we used uh issuing all over the world and really helping us out with um with getting the
• 08:30 - 09:00 message out that that uh press release that they did I think got a lot of a lot of interest too that was part of the reason that we had such a high interest level was um was their constant U support in that too and of course the eff all of this wouldn't have happened with the CTF without the eff and their continual support with the podcast and other things really uh really is helpful and I know I talked about a little bit last month and I did not get all the pictures and everything up there from the Spy Associates Gadget that we got
• 09:00 - 09:30 the live GPS tracker uh we're still playing with that and a couple other new things so I'm going to just uh say that I got to get some pictures and links up there for the things that we have so we can we can keep promoting those guys because they give us some prettyy cool stuff to to mess with um so anyhow are you spying on your wife again well no no here's what happened I I had a yeah I I got a good a good story that back this up I had a lady from a from a
• 09:30 - 10:00 news media place call me and say hey I was check you know after the CTF I was checking out your website and I see that you know you do a lot of things that could be like considered spying I'm writing an article on on GPS trackers um you know do you have any knowledge or usage of them I said well I've used this one and I linked her to the the thing that we used uh back that was like that little magnet GPS that stored everything she said how about live GPS tracking I said I know they have them I'm not sure if I used one you
• 10:00 - 10:30 know as of recent enough to talk about so I called the guy from Spy associate and said hey can you give me some info he did one better he mailed me out like the best live tracking GP I mean it's ridiculous it has a GSM chip inside it ties into the server plus like a what they call 7lb magnet so it just sticks inside the anywhere in the car and it the battery lasts for for 70 days if you charge it the battery lasts for 70 days yada yada what's the story the story well okay anyhow so I I just stuck it on
• 10:30 - 11:00 you know I did the same thing I did before and got in the same trouble I did before I stuck it on my wife's car just to as a joke you know to see see I told you and uh now come now comes out the truth and then when she came home and and I'm like oh you got to see this new device I got from Spy associate she was like oh my God if it's like some kind of hidden camera or something you know we're going to have more problems and I'm like no no it's like a GPS tracker said look I just tracked everything everywhere you went and your speed and you know well anyhow you can guess the
• 11:00 - 11:30 rest of the story yeah so you get you life yeah I won't be po I won't be posting the actual map of like where she went or anything but you know you can get the well the bruises that you had off it I might post some of the pictures of that broken limbs you know so I can get some sympathy votes or something but um I wanted to go back to this nlh stuff because uh the nlh is is the neur listic hacking the the name
• 11:30 - 12:00 that we kind of coined and then started writing and talking about has really generated a lot of interest uh with different people I mean not just like this big bank that we went and did the speech for but there's a lot of organizations I have another one in in Norway and some others that are all emailing us wanting training or speeches in that in that particular topic it's pretty pretty interesting that that kind of took off so much and part of the research that we've been doing into nlh is is about body language and non-verbal
• 12:00 - 12:30 communication so things like micro Expressions body language vocal tones all that kind of ties into to the nlh and of course anytime uh anybody who does any Research into body language reading at all is eventually going to hit the name uh Joe Navaro so Joe is a guy who was a veteran of the of the FBI 25 years and he's got a really interesting story that I'm not going to give too many details out and until we get him on and then he can give us some
• 12:30 - 13:00 of the the details about it but he's got a like I said a 25 year history with the FBI and he learned from a very very young age how to use non-verbal communication to read people's intents and what they were trying to say uh because English was not his first language so um he transferred his life experience into serving at the FBI and then was able to crack some pretty huge cases with the FBI um using non-verbal communication know trying to determine
• 13:00 - 13:30 when people were deceiving and so on and so forth uh so he wrote quite quite a few books has a website out there has some training that from what we hear is some of the best training in the market on on body language reading and non-verbal communication uh decoding his voice isn't going to sound like the nurse is it where we have to like lock our wives in the Sellar I mean man every video I watch him he's very smooth but he's he's not he's definitely not um into like the NLP as much as the nurse like the nurse is you know yeah I don't
• 13:30 - 14:00 even want him like you're my wife you know that same here same here okay I just make it sure but this guy what would be afraid if I was in person you know and you try to say one thing I mean I was I have this series of videos that he did where he analyzed U political figures when they were campaigning like Obama McCain Hillary Clinton and he has all these clips that are just public news Clips nothing private and he goes through them and he tells you know here's what she's saying with her words but here's what the body is saying and
• 14:00 - 14:30 it's pretty scary like how after you see it and he pinpoints things how you can kind of really pick it out and say wow this person is definitely saying something completely different than what the words are saying in their mouth uh so he's pretty uh he's he's of course an expert in that been training people now he's left the FBI after 25 years and he wrote a bunch of books and some training courses and now training the federal government in many of these things and using this as a science I think for social engineering this is probably a
• 14:30 - 15:00 big hot topic that we really need to analyze a lot more I wonder what he does in his day jug yeah that well I I think he has a he has a website that focuses on training and presenting he does a lot of public speaking and a lot of uh training in in the nonverbal communication Arena he has he has some online training as well as live courses and speaking it looks like from his website that much of what he
• 15:00 - 15:30 does is travel around and talks about about these things he also does some training on uh which is kind of which is kind of an interesting Twist on poker you know guys who play poker for a living being able to to utilize the skills that he has in Reading uh people across the table and their tells yeah yeah interesting so we're going to get Joe in here just a couple minutes and uh talk to him about non-verbal communication
• 15:30 - 16:00 okay do we have a title for the podcast we do um I believe I wanted to call it I see what you were thinking with a different spelling on the C being like i e what you were thinking misty misty yeah I'm smart like that usually it's you that comes up with the really catchy podcast titles it's difficult these days man with the economy and all
• 16:00 - 16:30 that okay so we got Joe Navaro with us now thanks for coming on the show Joe we appreciate you being here with us it's a pleasure so I just wanted to start off a little bit maybe for a lot of our listeners because uh when I was I was reading your book what everybody is saying and uh one of the things I learned about you that I did not know from previous watching videos uh and reading things about you on the web is that you're actually came over from from
• 16:30 - 17:00 Cuba as a young child and didn't know any English when you came to the country so you had yeah that was that was yeah that was a bummer uh actually it uh it uh it's one of those things where you know when Fidel Castro took over and uh literally uh his forces took over our house um we fled and um you know we we came uh to America's refugees but um I
• 17:00 - 17:30 I'd been to Miami before on vacation but I didn't uh I didn't speak uh in fact nobody in my family really spoke English so uh it made it tough but in a way as I explain in in in the book that you're referring to what everybody is saying it helped a lot because I think I went through with what every immigrant goes through and that is when they arrive here they've really got to be sensitive to body language because they don't uh you know they don't speak language and I think that helped me to um to to really
• 17:30 - 18:00 learn to observe better so I mean how how did you just out of curiosity how did you come up with to understand I mean that you were really young I think you the books that you were somewhere around eight or so yeah I was eight well I think even at at a young age uh we you know we begin to pick up on on social cues and and so forth um so so I I don't think my
• 18:00 - 18:30 experience uh was was any different maybe mine uh from a survival sort of thing where we had to you know succeed and and so forth was uh you know was more important to me um you sort of grow up fast when you have to go to work at an early age but um but you know what's interesting uh is that for instance we know that babies as early as uh 11 months uh are already looking for cues
• 18:30 - 19:00 from their mothers to whether or not they can do this or they can do that so um and then we know that by the third week um they're already mimicking us as far as squinting eyes and pursing lips and so forth so um I I think at a very young age now the research shows that were extremely sensitive to uh to body language yeah that's that's interesting
• 19:00 - 19:30 um so maybe you can tell us a little bit about what what exactly is non-verbal communication so maybe we can Define that as we as we entered the discussion about what it is that you were reading on on these people when you came over well that that's a that's a good question because uh non-verbal uh uh everybody thinks non-verbal Communications is uh just body language and and it's not um you know Under the Umbrella of non-verbal communication you have things like for instance um emblems
• 19:30 - 20:00 so when you see a stop sign that's emblematic uh when you see words words are in a way their own emblems or their symbols uh which have meaning and and uh and so forth the American flag has has meaning um and we you know when we look at things that communicate to us uh you know to to a navigator the Stars nav you know communicate uh to the weatherman
• 20:00 - 20:30 the wind and so forth and to even colors if you look at uh for instance um on television um there's a preponderance of the color blue and there's a reason for that and uh and blue tends to be very soothing and so anything that communicates to us that's not a word is a nonverbal and uh and of course body l language uh falls under that as does um
• 20:30 - 21:00 you know body mechanics body movement so for instance we differentiate between uh you know when we look at a smile and so forth uh versus the our movement of our arms um which is kinesics um all that falls under the B big umbrella of uh nonverbal communication so there's there as you can see there's quite a bit and that's why when we say that when it comes to
• 21:00 - 21:30 interpersonal communication that so much of it um is nonverbal it's because there's so many symbolic things that um that communicate to us that's interesting so I have a question then with that being said how much does uh cultural or generational issues play into non-verbal communication well that's that's a great question too you know uh well first of
• 21:30 - 22:00 all we are there are certain things that we do that are Universal that uh are governed by the the lyic uh part of our brain I'll talk about that uh later and uh for instance if around the world and it doesn't matter what culture you're in when you see something beautiful um even at the age of 6 months if you see something beautiful your pupils dilate and if you see something ugly your pupils constrict
• 22:00 - 22:30 you have absolutely no control over that so there's a nonverbal that uh is universal controlled by the uh lyic system but then there are the cultural nonverbals so culture teaches us for instance uh in America that uh we shake hands for instance more than we hug that we wave to each other in a certain way that we can only look at at each other
• 22:30 - 23:00 uh for a certain period of time um and and those are those are cultural things how we walk people don't walk the same way around the world in some parts of the world for instance men will walk um more heel to toe and they angle the toes outward um and so forth so that's cultural and then we have behaviors that we learn within our own family for instance how we hold the
• 23:00 - 23:30 fork uh how we hold the the knife um may not be uh representative of what the rest of society teaches but that's what they teach at your house so um so it's a great question there there's all sorts of behaviors and things that we do some are innate some are cultural and some are just personal so and then that kind of ties back in I would guess you you would tie micro expressions in with non-verbal communication also well yeah I mean you know uh micro
• 23:30 - 24:00 Expressions which Paul Eckman sort of discovered by accident in the early 80s uh is really nothing more than an expression it's smaller it's faster um and and so forth but um you know any expression whether it's micro or large or whatever um is is going to be um based on two two things number one
• 24:00 - 24:30 is for instance the limic leakage so um so you say something I don't like and maybe I'll squint a little bit with my eyes right so now this is universal but where Society comes in is how much it allows you to do that uh or for instance a no let's use nose crinkle that's a better one so we crinkle our nose up when we go when we go e we smell
• 24:30 - 25:00 something bad um that's also Universal but the culture you come in allows you to do it differently so in in England where I've studied this uh for instance they can't Grimace with a very large uh expression but if you go to Brazil uh Society there permits you to do it uh with an exaggerated look in fact you see this at the dinner table where somebody br something and you don't want it and
• 25:00 - 25:30 they look like almost they brought something horrid but it's not it's it's just that the the social Norm there is that you can exaggerate it so um you have a combination of both but a lot of Expressions uh for instance uh the look of contempt um it's um that's you know that's Universal but it's uh but but there's a little bit of the social component that says well how much are you permitted to
• 25:30 - 26:00 do it and and and so forth and and and even what your mother uh allowed you to get away with I mean um you know it's uh let's not forget what we're taught by our parents yeah that's interesting um Joe I I have a a quick question um of course in in our Fields um in Social Engineering specifically uh many times you're supposed to uh give off a feeling to someone or try to influence them to
• 26:00 - 26:30 do something and um I'm I'm wondering how effective can one really be in in faking these nonverbals I mean can can I pull pull off something that will actually convince someone um that I'm feeling one way when I'm in fact feeling the other yeah sure absolutely that's that's what um Academy award-winning actors do um yeah it can be done um in in fact um we we probably do it more often than
• 26:30 - 27:00 than we think uh for instance um you know for the last 10 or 12 years I've I've had to you know uh tell my nephews that uh Santa Claus was coming tomorrow on Christmas Eve and uh and and you know and and really sort of portray it rather convincingly uh um you know lest I spoil
• 27:00 - 27:30 their their magical day so I I so I think we do these things all the time now you know people who who u pull off the great con um uh you're certainly your your Psychopaths to to to some extent but uh look at for instance uh in Espionage uh Intelligence Officers do this all the time as do uh undercover agents who you know convin the the mafia that they're
• 27:30 - 28:00 okay and and so forth so it can be done the the the the the obvious question is well H how can you do that and uh and so to a great extent it's Mastery of nonverbals it's Mastery of uh mimicry mirroring the the behaviors that provide comfort and so forth and uh and transmitting uh for instance how we establish that we're honest and truthful and we establish veracity truth
• 28:00 - 28:30 is through nonverbals it's not through verbals you don't you don't make people believe you're truthful or trustworthy with uh just with mere words you actually have to have the uh the nonverbal component so um it can be done but now I'm thinking like as you're you're talking about that U that particular topic you know there used to be a belief that um faking a smile is very difficult because there was those nerves those ocular nerves that you that
• 28:30 - 29:00 you couldn't trigger a certain percentage and then they proved that more people can trigger them than they originally had thought um that a good tell you know even putting a smile on and you wanted to make believe you were happy or glad to see somebody that that was one way that you can tell if someone really is truly happy is is looking for that um ocular nerve trigger are there are there tells where someone could look and say hey this person's faking that emotion or this person's faking that um that action to make me
• 29:00 - 29:30 think yeah no that's that's a great question and and that was an interesting study that that just came out a few years ago um but in fact if if you look at um you know for instance um um the Chinese have a saying a uh a laugh is not a laugh unless the uh you know the the stomach's involved and that says a lot about um you know when we look for the true smile um there's still a
• 29:30 - 30:00 distinction and I and I and I've seen you know thousands obviously of of smiles over time and I've studied them where for the most part when the face is truly relaxed and it's truly happy and truly content um you do have the engagement of the eyes and the mouth um and and and so forth and you have the the the arching of the eyebrows um I and and I've seen people fake it
• 30:00 - 30:30 where they're faking a um they're trying to fake a uh a a true smile and you know some people can get away with it I still find that most people there will be some sort of tension in the face and I think it has a lot to do with how we feel around each other um I I would find it almost impossible to fake a true smile around someone I dislike I just find um even
• 30:30 - 31:00 knowing this stuff I just find that my face tightens up uh too much and I think my my uh my my smile would uh would look contrived um and and the other thing is the mistake that a lot of people who uh look at body language only focus on the on on the face um and I'm not going to name any names to to um you know because that's not necessary
• 31:00 - 31:30 but there's a lot of researchers that assume that it's all in the face and it's not you have to look at the whole body um and that's something that I quickly learned as an FBI agent is that you have to look at the body and tell you well what does the whole body tell you what does the forehead tell you versus the eyes versus the nose versus the cheeks versus the mouth I I still hear people say well the face this and the face that that that's like saying there was an accident in Florida where
• 31:30 - 32:00 in Florida what part of Florida what street um and you know where are the shoulders what what are the hands doing are the hands relaxed when they're when they're smiling or or are they contracted are the feet relaxed are they you know are they pointing in the opposite direction I mean there's I I look at the whole body and say well what does it say and then I add it up and say okay well that looks like a genuine smile and I see that the shoulders are relaxed and I see that the space between
• 32:00 - 32:30 fingers is relaxed uh there there's more space between the fingers and so forth and and you can see the thumb it hasn't been hidden so you look at the totality of it um and and that's how you make a um a a more disciplined uh uh assessment uh but to just look at you know where is it the eyes and the face um that's that's a that's a bit narrow I got a question on that you're reading
• 32:30 - 33:00 when you're reading uh some someone's nonverbals in that manner uh how much does baselining play into it is is that an important aspect of this how much does space what I'm sorry does baselining uh that there well oh yeah no well you gotta Baseline I mean you have to Baseline everything I mean the um you know you really have to uh to uh see the person um with um in in as much of a relaxed
• 33:00 - 33:30 State as possible you have to see them um you know without them realizing hopefully that they're under scrutiny and so forth um which is why you know when I people ask me well I I remember when I was in the FBI and people would say well you got somebody coming in at 2 o'clock why are you in the parking lot and I would say well I want to see what they look like as they're driving into the parking lot and they're getting out of their car I want to see how they're
• 33:30 - 34:00 walking into the office without them knowing that I'm looking at them and I want to see how they carry themselves uh you know and and you would often see people who were worried you know you know they'd sit there and they'd have three cigarettes before they'd come in the office and I'd say okay well they've got something to worry about or you women would begin to touch their necks and so forth before I even begin to to to talk to them so you you need to Norm as much as as you can
• 34:00 - 34:30 because what I find especially with a lot of investigators or or people that that are not very skilled is within three to five minutes they're already um addressing issues which we know are going to cause discomfort and so now you're you're looking at discomfort displays from intrusion rather than discomfort displays as a result of guilty knowledge and so your uh your
• 34:30 - 35:00 experiment is all screwed up so uh which is why you know I try to spend as much time as I can um I I can tell you one Espionage interview I did were the first uh not the first hour uh but the first three interviews were just to get a an assessment on the person and each interview was about an hour to an hour and a half it was more like a
• 35:00 - 35:30 conversation it was only after the third interview that I began to to make probes and by this time uh you know obviously I I I had uh I had a good read on this uh this individual I mean that you bring up an interesting thought because you know I'm always trying to tie in what you're saying to like our practice of social engineering now we're not agents for the government or any law enforcement but or Baseline someone maybe you don't have
• 35:30 - 36:00 three interviews or you don't have uh even an hour is there are there quick tips uh to gain a baseline on someone even as you're walking up maybe to engage that person in conv yeah there are yeah that you're exactly right and and uh and that's a good point um there are and and there's uh there's some ways to do you know there's uh there's been a lot of studies and what are called uh uh thin slice assessments and uh and they're fairly accurate they're they're in the 80 percentile range and basically
• 36:00 - 36:30 you know is this person going to be um you know compliant are they going to be difficult uh that sort of thing um when you have a very short period of time and I have had very short period of time um I I can't go into too many details but I had to interview somebody in about three minutes in what we call a denied area that means a part of the world where we're really not supposed to be there and um and one of the quickest ways you
• 36:30 - 37:00 can do that is by not facing the person but actually being on their side it's an interesting phenomena when we talk to people and they're at our side and we're both facing in the same direction uh they tend to relax really um oh yeah um and and then if you can walk with them it's even better when you stand in front of people um you they it it tends to elevate blood pressure it it it tends to create tension there's a lot of more misgivings
• 37:00 - 37:30 and and and so forth but um you know get a person to to to and you know when I was doing Counter Intelligence interviews I always try to sit next to the person um I I rarely did I sit I in fact I can't even remember one instance where I actually sat across from the person I was either at an angle or beside them um because the you know the the usual interview interrogation is you
• 37:30 - 38:00 know you're in front I'm in front and you know it's all that crap we see on TV but the most effective way to get information is to get people to relax and by you know sort of uh being on the same side um you you can achieve that um quite effectively yeah you know I found that fascinating yeah that is fascinating to to me also one of our first podcast interviewed a la enforcement agent who was a professional
• 38:00 - 38:30 interrogator and he said something very similar to what you said but it wasn't about nonverbals he just said that when you're interrogating uh what you see on TV is a load of garbage you know you don't you don't come in the room and slam your fist on the table and you know demand oh God no you come in the room and you give them a soda you know you make them feel at ease you tell them you understand their problems and you know you agree with them and build a rapport and and that's very similar to what you know social Engineers do on a ious way you know they don't come in there and demand your passwords they uh they come
• 38:30 - 39:00 in and they make you feel comfortable and at ease and you they charm you into giving information out that oh yeah that's exactly right and um you know the the the the best interviewers and any organization will tell you they they never have to raise their voice um the uh you know it's it's it's all you know mental work and it's just a matter of sort of uh you know getting them to trust you and eroding the the defenses
• 39:00 - 39:30 uh subconsciously um it's um I mean it's it's an extremely effective uh way I mean you know one of the you know people forget that we collect information first by observation and then by conversation and then by elicitation which is the technique that social Engineers use we then go to interviewing and then if you have to actually go to
• 39:30 - 40:00 an interrogation phase uh you you have a uh it's less than 5050 chance of actually getting the information you need then because it's so aggressive at at that point um I think in my in the in my career I I think I I did like somewhere between uh 12 and 13,000 interviews now that's not interrogations that's interviews um but of those uh which seems like a lot but it's not
• 40:00 - 40:30 it comes out to like w a day in a career seems um no it isn't it it isn't it's the only thing is in the bureau they they tally everything you do every hour is accounted for so you can you know at the end of your career you can go back and see how many interviews you did um I think I only had to interrogate one individual and uh and I failed because I had to interrogate them everybody else I interviewed and uh I I pretty much always got what I
• 40:30 - 41:00 needed um the other thing that that happens is uh uh you know a lot of uh there's a lot of uh you know like in television they're always going for the confession and and the confession is always uh High bar to set um but you actually don't need a confession you just need a lot of little admissions yeah I was there yeah the weather was this yeah I was you know I saw this that nobody else could have seen and so forth and so you can tally up enough
• 41:00 - 41:30 admissions to where it equals a a confession I've I've I've put away you know 20 30 people um just on little small admissions that uh that they made which equal in the end a confession a lot of people you know they they want to go for the uh yeah I shot her uh uh when uh there's a lot of other ways to to you know to obtain the information uh uh by uh by admission so um you have to be
• 41:30 - 42:00 careful with u you know with that also but again and in the social engineering uh area it it's really it's really about getting people to relax and and trust you and and to that end it it's really about uh body language it's about uh mirroring behavior for instance you can calm somebody down just by exhaling in front of them really no with yeah well you got somebody that's all
• 42:00 - 42:30 agitated I I I learned this when I was uh when I was going through SWAT training and I was getting my uh Advanced uh course in uh as a paramedic and I had to do some uh ER work or yeah the emergency room at Rosie roads in Puerto Rico and a physician there told me he says this is the best advice I can give you if you got parent you know people that come in and they're huffing and they're puffing and they're all out of breath and they're upset and so forth just give them a long exhale and what
• 42:30 - 43:00 happens is they're looking for somebody to mirror that's you know sort of together and we subconsciously seek whoever's in uh who has home homeostasis to calm down and and it works and you just exhale profoundly they pick up on that and they begin to settle down and so by um but what's that say does that work just in in visual aspect or does it would it work like let's say even a phone call if you oh it works on the phone I've I've done it on the I've
• 43:00 - 43:30 done it on the phone where um you know I do one of these uh I talk about it uh in fact I talk about it in my my second book uh the uh louder than words I talk about uh exhaling over the phone and doing what's called a cathartic exhale so that you know you do one of these yeah I see what you mean and the person will then mimic you and begin to relax and because now you're appealing to them at a subconscious level for
• 43:30 - 44:00 homeostasis you're not agitating them you're actually helping them to calm down they'll want to actually spend more time talking to you and what you said right there I mean is exactly what we try to do when we're trying to do like a social engineer on the phone like trying to you know relax the person on the phone in order to get a desired outcome and you mean it's beautiful I never really even even thought about it that way yeah you know you know one of the things that uh especially in louder than
• 44:00 - 44:30 words that I talk about is how do you ensure that people will want to spend more time with you how do you get them to increase FaceTime and return and so forth and we do that through psychological comfort you know it's you know I'll I'll hang out with somebody and not because they're you know they got money or they're pretty or this or that because they make me feel comfortable and so we gravitate toward W people like that and so when somebody who makes me comfortable calls I'll move
• 44:30 - 45:00 my schedule to be with them I'll give them extra time I'll reveal things to them um be because of that so um that's that's one of the things that you know you you can work on it's not about you know how fast you can get the information is how effective are you about creating this um this psychological comfort so that the person will uh will always come back and in fact uh when I use this um in in U in my
• 45:00 - 45:30 um both Counter Intelligence and counterterrorism cases um it you you can get it to the point where the suspects will then be calling you on a daily basis or on a weekly basis just to check in um because they find comfort in talking to you and and uh yep now D I mean when when I'm doing a social engineer I mean you hit it out in the
• 45:30 - 46:00 money my biggest problem that I have is getting enough time with a person on the phone you know making them feel comfortable to where they want to stay on the phone with me in order for me to have a desired outcome during my social engineer so what would you say is the most effective um tactic in getting people to stay on the phone with you in order to or even just in person so that you they're that you're important enough for them to stay on the phone and have a desired outcome that you wanted yeah well you know there's there's a couple of things and we're getting into you know really a more advanced area and that is well who do we
• 46:00 - 46:30 talk to and why um well we talk to equals and we talk to people of higher status but we don't talk to people we don't really talk to or or give information to people of lower status I mean we just it it uh we we see this in almost no Society except except when we um we make them the professors when we ask people for
• 46:30 - 47:00 their opinions when we tell them that we value what they have to say when we um imbue them um with the uh with a sort of um uh qualities that we would imbue um a a um an a uh a a teaching um all knowing archetype then uh then there willing to to talk and in fact U there's a there's
• 47:00 - 47:30 a great book by one of the biographers of Kennedy and he said to you can get anybody anywhere to talk to you anytime all you have to do is uh tell them that you treasure their opinion and uh and I suspect um to a certain extent he was he was probably right now obviously you don't you you can't come across like you're bsing this guy uh but I think it um I think for the
• 47:30 - 48:00 most part people are you are willing to to uh to talk about things um because it you know it it shows you know what they know how much they know and so forth you know you know Pro I mean this this uh this topic is is fascinating because um I mean as you talk about these things you know you're you're really hitting the head on on what social Engineers do so people can learn to to notice this that might help them in in protecting their themselves
• 48:00 - 48:30 their companies their families um probably one of the most asked questions we we get uh through our our channels is about detecting deception you know tips that help people to to see when someone is trying to scam them or con them or or use a confidence trick against them are there any tips that you have that that can people can look and say this might be a key for deception here yeah well that's I mean that's a
• 48:30 - 49:00 great question and it's uh we're going to have to divide it up into a couple things you know one thing is deception another thing is being conned you know um and uh one of the things that I found in fact I I think I wrote an article about this for psychology today a few years ago was that um when people are being conned into doing something the the the the con man or the conoman
• 49:00 - 49:30 um the Predator let's just say um is going to do a couple things they want to isolate you they want to isolate you uh psychologically so that you're dependent on them and not others so they don't want you to make phone calls they don't want you to get other people's opinions um they usually violate your space so that they're constantly in your face you see this with the elderly they'll come in and and take advantage of the elderly and they'll violate their
• 49:30 - 50:00 space until they sign the the uh the paperwork to uh or give them a check to you know cut the the grass or do whatever and then they back away and so at that point the person can relax so there's physical tension that's uh that's created um and then there's the use of time that what we call chronemics and and that is that everything has to be urgent it has to be done now it cannot wait there's there's all this everything
• 50:00 - 50:30 has to you know be taken care of immediately and so I think when when you look at things like this where there's some sort of isolation some sort of exclusiveness uh you know obviously it's too good to be true type thing uh but also that uh there's there's a certain urgency and and and so forth and there's very little chance or opportunity to meet or discuss it with others um then something it raises the
• 50:30 - 51:00 flag yeah that's you know when when when I'm doing a when I'm doing a social engineer and everything like that I mean I find that if I'm persuasive in the banner of this needs to get done now I come off some sort of authoritative that it doesn't have as high as a success rate as if I was you know really nice to the person and and needing help like I find that needing help when I'm I'm performing at Conor social engineer is much more effective than you know being that persuasive kind of you know angry I'm bind uh you need to help me type of mentality what do you what do you see as
• 51:00 - 51:30 the more probable way of of getting your desired results through those type of methods yeah well I I mean you know in in the end it's it's uh it's always down to the personality that what what kind of person are you dealing with I mean we you you can't this is one area that you really I just dealt with a company and I won't name who they are but I'm very disappointed in them because they're a major company but the way they paint uh other people is with this very broad brush and I said you can't do that um
• 51:30 - 52:00 you know one of the things that we in the FBI are very we're very skilled at is recruiting people to help us um and that's no different than what than what you do and and we do that by uh tempering the approach uh you know the you know um talking to them um nurturing it based on what kind of
• 52:00 - 52:30 personality they have you know are they a dynamic personality or you know are they the kind of person that's very procedural everything has to be weighed and everything has to be analyzed and things take a very long time to to um to be dissected and chewed and swallowed and so forth you you you know it's uh it it really is person and so that's why you know a lot of what I used to do was
• 52:30 - 53:00 a lot of very quick personality assessment to see what kind of person I'm dealing with and then I'm going to have to Mir it I'll I'll give you an example for instance somebody from the south goes to New York and goes into a deli and right away the first thing they notice is people in those delies in New York talk very fast right and you know and you know the in in the South uh you know words tend
• 53:00 - 53:30 to be drawn out a little bit longer and and things have their own Rhythm and so forth and and one culture isn't any better than the other culture but what happens is what what happens when you you've got a very fast speaker and everything's bada bing bada boom and then you've got somebody that's just drawing things out well I can tell you my eyes shut or I start I start to roll my eyes and I just want to get away I just I want information at my speed not at your speed so um so you almost
• 53:30 - 54:00 have to begin to mirror a lot of those behaviors a lot of you know the way the the person stands and so forth and this is where ISO Praxis mirroring comes in and of course the more you mirror the the the the the and I'm not talking about in a in a in a sort of mimicking caricature sort of way but I mean everything from the way we stand to the blink rate and so forth it puts us on
• 54:00 - 54:30 the on the uh on the same sheet of music and of course uh also you have to consider for instance mirroring of Words which is you know one of the things that Carl Rogers the therapist looked at um back in the 60s and and that was that you know if Chris says family well Joe better not say you know wife and kids because it's not the same thing it's absolutely not the same thing if if you say family I'm going to say family if
• 54:30 - 55:00 you say you know uh you know my generation had problems your generation has issues the word issues has absolutely no resonance with me if if I go to a counter and I say I got a problem with the way I'm being treated I don't want to hear well yeah I guess there were issues hey issue this I you know I I want I want you to respond and say oh yeah I can see there's a problem here Mr Navaro we destroyed your luggage that's exactly what we did so um even
• 55:00 - 55:30 the words that we we choose U reach to us subconsciously at a at a at a deeper level um so that really kind that ties in it it seems like with like sales and uh any of things I've ever read on that about building Rapport when you use similar words or similar body language similar facial expressions people like to be with people who they are like so when you do all that it it it builds a confidence in you that you are just like the person you're dealing with yeah
• 55:30 - 56:00 exactly in fact I I ran into uh somebody the other day and uh and and they were you know they were using a lot of swear words I mean they were you know they were dropping F bombs and and and just in particularly like the way they referred to women and I found myself distancing myself from from this this uh this this person and I I thought you know I just don't want to even deal with them uh because it it they were leaving
• 56:00 - 56:30 so many negative um Impressions on me that um you know and and uh you know I probably could have done business with them but it just it it doesn't resonate with me you know it's um so so you're exactly right is the the more we we mirror things but at the same time you know we we they're thresholds you know we we can't mirror criminal activity we can't you know mirror something that is
• 56:30 - 57:00 immoral or is unethical um and ask you a question on that that's an interesting topic now from a a social engineering standpoint let's say you know um an audit or something to that effect you want to um you want to May we're dealing with that person like you just said this guy who who curses a lot talks degrading about women and and like you um you know I don't really appreciate the foul language we don't use it even here we don't talk that way so but now I have to
• 57:00 - 57:30 get in with this person it's my job um is there a way to change his behavior subtly so that maybe he starts mirroring me without having to come down to that level of using the foul language and degrading conversation well that you know and now you're up against what every undercover agent whose work the motorcycle gang has complained about back in uh I think it was 1982 had to debrief um some very deep cover FBI
• 57:30 - 58:00 agents who had been with motorcycle gangs for a long time and and it was just something that um you know they they began to behave and act uh and um you know and mirror you know the the the people that they were with because they wanted to fit in so you know there are exceptions um you know but I when we're talking about just everyday stuff uh you know there there are limits uh but then
• 58:00 - 58:30 you know when when when something is sanctioned by Society um then it's uh obviously uh different and you may have to mirror that I mean I I remember uh uh um I was working on a Indian reservation I think this is in the book uh what everybody is saying and I was debriefing a guy who was a a pedophile and and uh you know one of as he's telling me these things and I'm
• 58:30 - 59:00 trying to get him to open up I I had to to you know sort of um as I'm biting my own lip um you know talk about uh you know children by by by saying well you know obviously I can see how a you know three or four year-old could have tempted you I mean I can't remember what I said but I I just remember I couldn't even believe what I was saying yeah just to make the guy just to make the guy feel uh comfortable enough to talk to me
• 59:00 - 59:30 uh but here's a guy that really needed to be put away because he he had done some despicable things and so yeah I mean sometimes Society permits you to um to to sort of act that way um and you may have to you may have to tolerate the the the the foul language and the uh and the other stuff um but aort and once you build a rapport with a
• 59:30 - 60:00 guy like that maybe by mirroring that kind of horrible activity then can you use that Rapport to now control him and maybe bring him to level yeah no exactly and and that's exactly what happened once I got him to relax and and feel that I wasn't being judgmental then it was a matter of just eliciting you know all the admissions of how many children there had been and I mean there there were upwards of 30 kids
• 60:00 - 60:30 involved that's a it's just oh my God so you so you know it it was a technique just to get this guy to to to relax and so forth and and I always found um and I and I think you guys are on to this that once you get people to relax around you they're they're much more pliable they're much more uh willing to cooperate and so forth I mean the the minute someone becomes
• 60:30 - 61:00 suspicious or you irritate somebody or you make them uncomfortable now you're dealing with their limic system and their lyic system is going to say okay uh freeze while you analyze this person flight distance yourself or fight them off in some way um and you know they're they're going to resist you more and more and more so you got to factor that in you
• 61:00 - 61:30 know it's interesting um this topic I know we're we're coming near the end here but yeah um one of the the research topics that we've been doing as a group we we we coined This this term called neurolinguistic hacking where um where we're kind of doing research into how people are using I don't even think social Engineers malicious ones are knowing that they're doing it um you know it's not like they have this intense knowledge but by analyzing these stories in the news uh we're finding that people are doing a lot of what
• 61:30 - 62:00 you're mentioning here by um controlling their facial expressions their body language their non-verbal communication skills they are creating emotional states within their targets uh that Mak them more pliable um you know making them more relaxed making them more calm uh building a sense of confidence or even empathy or sympathy in the person um allows the social engineer to then make a request that will be easily more
• 62:00 - 62:30 easily followed and um I'm just wondering if you think if there's any combative techniques uh against something like that so someone uh could maybe detect and then not fall for for these things yeah well I I think you have a good point I mean I I'm not sure what what to call it other than that we know that this is the methodology of the Predator you know the the reason that Predators have been so successful uh Ted Bundy uh
• 62:30 - 63:00 was able to gain a lot of access and and uh and Trust of of the victims because he was goodlooking he dressed sharp and his uh his uh his approach uh was was you know very uh very subtle um and and it works I mean when I look at Predators like for instance the with Matt off who got all these people to uh to invest and so forth I'm sure that he was giving off the ones that he did meet with I'm sure
• 63:00 - 63:30 he gave off a lot of cues of competence of confidence um and of of you know comfort and and so forth how do you gir up for that um well number one is to realize that there's always Predators out there uh that that you know people want to take advantage of you and that one of the best ways to avoid it is to just distance your yourself that there's just uh you you anybody that tries to you
• 63:30 - 64:00 know become your friend too quickly um tries to uh you know access you or what you know too fast um there may be issues there and um but you know I mean you you you have to take into account what your lifestyle is like and where you work and what you do and and um and what you know I mean I I know people work for the government for uh one of the alphabet organizations that if you don't identify yourself you
• 64:00 - 64:30 know within the first three to four seconds um and and they don't recognize you or if you don't know exactly what to say they they just they don't even talk to you they just hang up they don't they don't even want to want you to pick up on how their their speaking style yeah wow because because they know how Insidious it can be right I mean you know you can for instance you can I mean all you have to do is go to a high-tech company and and on a Friday afternoon is
• 64:30 - 65:00 just you know watch where they go you know what's their watering hole um or look through the parking lot and you see the uh the stickers on their car and then you know look for Saturdays as a great day to uh you know when when people are having garage sales and then boom you're talking to them during a garage sale and you know their guard is totally down and yet they're very exposed because we put stupid stickers on our cars that say where we work and stuff
• 65:00 - 65:30 like that right very interesting I got I got a question backing off a little bit from the the social engineering aspect of it for for people that don't work in this field and and but want to uh find Value out of uh nonverbals what do you what do you find for yourself in regular day-to-day life where you get the most value out of this sort of being able to read non-verbal communication well I I I I'd like that
• 65:30 - 66:00 question I that's one that's not often asked so I I really appreciate that points for um I I think you know I think where we use where where I use it the most is just in when I deal with people every day and I and I and I look to see are they comfortable or uncomfortable I mean that's that's what what everybody is saying was all about is don't complicate things with the body language you know it's just you know is does this person look comfortable to you because
• 66:00 - 66:30 we register discomfort immediately and if they're not comfortable then what is it is it the room is it me is it the conversation is it because they got to leave I mean what's going on here that's number one number two is use it to make people feel comfortable so that when whether you you you you have guests here or you're just walking down the street or uh what ever people feel uh you know comfortable if you don't know that in America you're only allowed to look at
• 66:30 - 67:00 each other in the eyes for about 1.28 seconds if you look at somebody for three seconds you know they're going to give you that New York uh question what are you looking at um so. 1.28 in America it's about that it's it's so anything yeah try it on a try it on a Subway in New York just stare at somebody a little longer you know so you you can use it to to get people to
• 67:00 - 67:30 relax and uh and so forth and you can also use it to um to sense when when you and others may be in danger which is what Gavin de Becker's great book The Gift of fear was all about um so you know we we and use it to enhance communication for in you know I I teach and and give presentations all over over the world I'm going to Taiwan and I'm going to Europe and the Netherlands uh in this coming year and
• 67:30 - 68:00 you know what what what makes for a good presenter um you know uh moving around the stage not standing behind the podium using your hands making sure that uh you know your gestures go up and out and um that you arch your eyebrows when you greet people because you know that causes us to burn sugars and we only burn sugars when we care right so you see somebody and you arch your eyebrow and go hey and you know now you're
• 68:00 - 68:30 friends versus just hey how you doing without arching your eyebrows well we know the babies respond to it at at I think at about a week old so this is something that that we desperately need so we can do it to enhance relationships enhance Communications and uh you know further uh whatever our interests are that's that's what you use it for that's very very interesting uh Joe I tell you I I really
• 68:30 - 69:00 really appreciate your time here today I mean I I found this to be very excellent a lot of here great well I I uh I I really appreciate it and um you know I know you guys are are interested in in this sort of thing if uh and and if you're listeners or your viewers or readers are interested um on my website which is at www.j n forensics decom um I offer a u I think it's about
• 69:00 - 69:30 a 12 or nine or 12 page I forget how big it's now bibliography with several hundred articles on on where this research comes from and of course they can go to Amazon for my books um what everybody is saying and then louder than words and by the way uh the book what everybody is saying according to Amazon is right now the number one selling book uh in the world on uh body language so oh really that's excellent congratulations on that I'm not going to
• 69:30 - 70:00 lie I mean I'm definitely I'm definitely going to go pick that book up I mean everything that we've talked about here has been highly interesting well I I I think and I thank you guys and I and I'm and really I appreciate the the very good questions that uh that you asked you know one of our I appreciate that Joe thanks our followers tend to um uh log on to Twitter and use uh things like that so do you you have a Twitter account you want to tell us what that is if you don't mind if people want to follow you there I do I uh I Twitter at uh uh Naro
• 70:00 - 70:30 tells na Ava r o tells and um I usually you know try to publish things uh re re regarding any research that I find that is uh interesting and and you know and I'll vary it I'll talk about political things but uh mostly about science and nonverbals and uh and so forth and I and try to put uh stuff in there almost every day about body language things to
• 70:30 - 71:00 look for um things that maybe you never even thought about like for instance when we're confident the space between our fingers increases and when we lack confidence we put our fingers together and that may make uh the difference uh you know during a forensic interview or when you're asking somebody about something whether or not they have confidence in in what they're saying and and it's something that's rarely been looked at or studied but it was certainly something that I used when I
• 71:00 - 71:30 was in the um in the bureau that's excellent because I I know that a lot of times I follow your Twitter I mean sometimes you just put humorist I mean I hate to even say this is humorous you know because this morning you were it's just irony that the guy that that um that makes the um Segways actually died writing a segue writing a segue you know and I and and I what was interesting about that was that um I had I have seen now two people have
• 71:30 - 72:00 accidents with those Segways and uh you know it's not a laughing matter that it's you know it's it's really an unstable platform uh you know um and you know hopefully you you're you you know you don't have any accidents but I've seen two accidents oh now I I heard about this and uh you know it's it's uh it's an amazing uh thing that U you know that that we don't see more of those uh those
• 72:00 - 72:30 those accidents I uh uh you know when you look at head trauma and what happens to people with head trauma it's just U it's uh it's sad but and any case you know I I I mean I put a lot of stuff in there I'll I'll put my thoughts out I I talk about how to you know be a better business leader uh I talk about how to be AIT you know a better father how to use nonverbals with children uh one of the best articles um uh and I don't mean best because it was written well one of
• 72:30 - 73:00 the Articles that's most that's got a lot of readership in Psychology today was the one that I did about what every parent should teach a child about body language and uh it's just been amazing how many people um have looked at that um because um you know it's it's I mean it's important to me it's important to other people so that's the kind of thing that I uh that I Twitter about y Jo Jo before we leave I I have I have a a quick question something that you
• 73:00 - 73:30 said really mashed my brain there about you know the finger spread apart Etc does it have a reverse a reverse ability as well that that means if I posture myself in a relaxing situation you know with my fingers spread apart and and looking to the right or what what have you could that have a reverse effect where it will actually calm me down well you know the uh one of the therapists that was out there in the 70s a fellow by the name of Ellis always
• 73:30 - 74:00 said you know if you if you stand tall if you do this and if you do that you can counter um some of the negative feelings that you're you're having I'm not sure and that's not my area of expertise but I can tell you this in the same way that animals for instance dogs will tuck their ears against their face uh when they're up to no good or they've done something bad or they lack confidence that we humans do the same thing we tend to tuck our thumb away we tend to um uh our fingers tend to come
• 74:00 - 74:30 together when uh we lack confidence and so when I look at uh declarative statements and someone's making a declaration you know most people are looking at the face I look at the whole body and I can tell from the spread of the hands whether the person's really confident or or they're not and and you can tell that by by the of the space between their fingers when we're confident we spread out when we lack confidence we we
• 74:30 - 75:00 don't yeah you know I found that interesting as you talked about that in your interview on CBS with um Hillary Clinton and her gestures were very close to her body and you you you talked about how those closed very close to the body gestures indicated that she wasn't comfortable but then when she talked about Healthcare her arms were out in the open wide and open and it just show show that she was very confident and comfortable about that yeah exactly and um and and that uh I mean I've used this
• 75:00 - 75:30 in negotiations where you know I've gone in with uh with a uh a legal team during negotiations and and we've looked at opposing Council to see how definitive they uh they really are on on their position and and we've been able to dissect that you know this is all uh this is all for show um because they they lack the confidence their their words sounded good but their their body language didn't mirror it um and that's
• 75:30 - 76:00 and that you know part of that has to do with the the limic brain controlling confidence but um anyway it's it's been great talking to you guys we'll we'll have to do it again sometime thank you and just to reiterate if you want to follow Joe you can uh you can get him on his on his website at JN forensics decom his Twitter account is Navaro n AV v a r o I'm sorry n a VA a r r o tells and uh you can get some good information from Joe there Joe thank you a ton for coming
• 76:00 - 76:30 on the podcast and helping us out with this topic thank you very much thank you all right take care and good talking to all of you all the best talk you soon thank you much bye bye wow that was a uh excellent podcast huh guys oh that was great fascinating I mean every every time we get someone else on they always put a different perspective that you never really thought thought of or you learn something new you know I do one of the things that crossed my
• 76:30 - 77:00 mind is is with mut's question there at the end um I was reading some article um that was completely unrelated to anything over the this last week and it brought up this this thing I had never heard of before um I guess it's somewhat related to the the study between how we move affects our behavior and I think the interesting thing to me about M's question is I I saw some discussion about uh it was your question I was just picking it out because you didn't
• 77:00 - 77:30 want it it was I guess what I'm thinking is is I saw some stuff like suggestions on you know when you get get nervous your your palm sweat and your your hands get cold and clammy and that one one of the suggestions that people have about how to calm down is to warm your hands up you know run them under warm water for a little bit so so they get warm and then that has a physiological effect on you of of calming you down so so that you're not uh as nervous and other little tactics like that of of how you can physically change your uh your
• 77:30 - 78:00 emotions based on on little small physical items like that and and Joe Joe really kind of brought that to mind when he was talking about reading body Lang whiches I I I wonder that that's something that we should look into down the road about getting someone from that field on that could be a really interesting discussion that actually really touches on the nlh stuff I was just saying you know like with the micro expressions one of the one of the researchers one of the research that really based the whole thing on the nlh
• 78:00 - 78:30 um that that I was using was the guys who did the micro expression research that that determined that even viewing a micro expression on someone else could trigger mirror neurons in your brain to cause the same emotional response in you so yeah I do think remember what we what we talked with I think it was Ellen Lang um where she said that if you if you talk to someone on the on your left or on your right or whether you hold the phone on your left or your right remember yeah
• 78:30 - 79:00 Kevin Hogan correct correct um we saw that there we saw how you know like an external relatively minute uh change in in how you handle your environment IE is the phone on your left or on your right that can have an influence on how you perceive things you know what I mean so I think we've seen that I I think we have seen in the past where you can influence your own state by changing things around you and it makes sense the question is to what degree well I think um like what what
• 79:00 - 79:30 Jim was just saying is uh these physiological changes like running if you're nervous running your hands under hot water will heat your hands up which in turn will tell your body hey you're not nervous anymore so it's almost like reverse psychology of your body because nervousness causes your hands to sweat so the sweat and the cold hands was a result of the nervousness but now by reversing the result and making your hands warm you now tell your body oh I'm
• 79:30 - 80:00 no longer nervous you can stop being cold so this is reverse uh phys physiology not reverse psychology right yeah reverse physiology and and um the whole the whole thing with NLP that started like with with bandler and grinder uh in the 70s was that by altering someone's internal state of mind you can cure things like depression or the desire to smoke or things like that and they were using it effectively for that um people who tend to be depressed walk around with a frown on
• 80:00 - 80:30 their face not all the time but maybe even just microle you know it's like they're uh they tend to to be sadder well by forcing themselves to practice real smiles and then doing it in the mirror and seeings happy it would reverse this brain's effect of depression and they've proven that at least in some cases that this works I I I believe that that this is definitely uh a feasible topic to analyze a little more did you just say micro Le micro Le I
• 80:30 - 81:00 did as opposed to macro Le I'm creating new words as we go I mean that oh n micro Le macro Le I'm before the end of the year we're gonna have a whole new science based on just my words alone people won't be able to understand anything I say unless they buy a book of like vocabulary words or something the the chisms the chisms that's it you're writing those down right right
• 81:00 - 81:30 Jim yes of course we got we got what two two new criticisms this podcast at least two this one at least two I mean we can probably add the uh the the Tweet you know yeah hey that was mine that was your was I'm stealing that was musm oh you want to hear a funny story while we're still here so um in in my book is a joke I'm you know I'm finishing up the the social
• 81:30 - 82:00 engineer book at this one part I was writing something I was quoting you m um and and I used no I was I was using the phrase try harder and I put it in quotes and I put a PN after it so that the one editor writes back and she says do we really have to use a trademark on that I mean can't anyone just say the phrase try harder and I go and say no you know um you know uh we we actually trade Mark that phrase you know so we have to put it in there so there's a very good possibility that in the book The Phrase try harder will actually be
• 82:00 - 82:30 trademarked that's awesome wouldn't that just be epic I'm trying to get them to leave it that epic middle theic yeah it's awesome oh man if they want to avoid the situation of getting sued for trade trademark infringement they have to keep it there yeah if you need it on a letterhead I can send it to you that's great my boss
• 82:30 - 83:00 sues my editor for my book for using trademark and something that I helped you get that's wonderful yeah I tell you that would just take the American dream right out of it oh man so guys this was a another phenomenal podcast in my opinion yeah yes absolutely except for the comments that I made that that must didn't like but that's fine [Laughter] least it wasn't it wasn't as bad as that
• 83:00 - 83:30 LE wasn't bad as that one exploit what was that what was it exploit 14738 oh man the fact that you remember the number is what troubles me that's true that troubles me a little bit you know it's okay it's okay re because no one will hear your comments because every time you speak we we're GNA play the uh Price Is Right theme you know every time you come on like hey uh we're like [Laughter] so don't don't even worry about it sounds
• 83:30 - 84:00 good oh man I think we got to mention at the end um you know just our our this is our our deal our sponsors again fensive security at CWC spy Associates and the eff of course um if you like the outro music check out more of it he's got a few albums uh the n82 guy and um and his posy at dualcore music.com you can always check us out Twitter uh human haacker or on IRC on
• 84:00 - 84:30 ircf free.net and Channel social-engineer or of course on the internet at social-engineer [Music] dog thetive that's me I'm Prime the last thing I want his suspicion of a crime my positive demeanor and my smile make it fine with eye contact for the right amount of time too much and not enough doesn't seem for real got a nice firm
• 84:30 - 85:00 handshake sealing the deal no a little about a lot and a lot about a little so most conversation put me somewhere in the middle my pop culture knowledge me feeling kind of scary it lets me chat with working class and gossip secretaries Recon the boardroom looking for the top thing loosen up exacts when I ask about the golf swing starts viewing Secrets just like a torent can't really blame him we all want to feel important it might seem different from what you were envisioning key to communicate it's all about the listening I'm going to the best get I'm going
• 85:00 - 85:30 every trick in the book TR best to get you I'm going to use every trick in the book try my best to get offering support to employees is the best when I'm calling random users and claiming I'm a tech he's just here to help so they easily believe in him jaming play scam is Banning every single medium recording while I'm spider in your phone menu system the mirror written use it for my own acquisition
• 85:30 - 86:00 get them on the line I just do a little switching sending out my number in the message when I'm fishing 6 billion people it's really quite a market customers employees everyone's a Target backing up my claims using all the common slang lingle for the layout drop the manager's name collecting all the sweet stuff like honey to a bumblebee like every unlisted number D to your company you saw me you probably think I'm clumsy but I'm not cuz I'm dropping all these USB drives around the parking lot oh oh [Music]
• 86:00 - 86:30 whoops try my best to get you I'm going to use every trick in the book try my best to get you I'm going to use every trick in the book try my best to get you hold I'm going to use every trick in the book try my best