EXCLUSIVE: Tony Seba Predicts Super Abundant Utopia!

Summary

Highlights

• Tony Seba envisions a world transformed by 'stellar technologies' like AI and solar energy ☀️🤖.
• The concept of extraction economics will fade, giving way to a self-sustaining system 🌿.
• Billions of robots might operate autonomously, creating vast opportunities and changing labor as we know it 🤯.
• Humanity will transition from scarcity-driven systems to abundance thanks to advanced technology 🌌.
• Future societal structures could differ dramatically from our current systems, as they adapt to these technological changes 🚀.

Key Takeaways

• The future could be a super abundant utopia facilitated by stellar technologies like solar, wind, and AI 🌞🤖.
• Stellar technologies promise to upend traditional economic systems like capitalism and potentially even democracy ⚖️.
• This transformation is compared to historical shifts like the move from hunter-gatherer societies to organized cities 🌄.
• The growth will no longer be imperative; instead, sustaining and healing our planet becomes feasible with these new tech innovations 🌍.
• Seba's vision suggests a radical societal change that some might find challenging to imagine at first 🌌.

Overview

Chapters

• 00:00 - 07:00: The Autonomous Robotics Revolution The chapter titled 'The Autonomous Robotics Revolution' discusses pivotal moments in the development of AI and robotics, where artificial intelligence begins to self-replicate using existing hardware, and humanoid robots take on the task of constructing the factories that produce them. The narrative suggests that this significant technological advancement will occur within the next generation, affecting the global labor market. The speaker, using a personal reference to their niece Allison, predicts that this development will lead to billions of robots entering the workforce, which, while replacing current labor roles, is also anticipated to generate substantial new opportunities. The chapter underscores an imminent transformative phase in robotics expected to materialize over the next six to twenty years.
• 07:00 - 14:00: Stellar Technologies and Self-Sustaining Systems The chapter discusses the potential of Stellar Technologies and Self-Sustaining Systems, emphasizing how space offers opportunities for innovation beyond current imagination. It highlights the concept of harnessing stellar energy to reach a point of ignition, allowing systems to become self-sustaining and produce excess energy. The chapter envisions a future with autonomous electric vehicles and artificial labor, indicating that while these technologies might not arise concurrently, they are expected to emerge within this generation, potentially revolutionizing human society by creating a new foundational platform based on stellar energy sources, like solar and wind.
• 14:00 - 21:00: The History and Impact of Extraction Systems The chapter discusses the advancements in technology through the integration of artificial labor, specifically robots combined with AI, which is referred to as stellar core. This core platform serves as the foundational technology for various sectors including medicine, transport, and food. It highlights the ongoing massive disruptions impacting humanity across several domains such as energy, transportation, food, intelligence, and labor, and projects that the costs associated with these technologies will decline to near zero.
• 21:00 - 28:00: From Extraction to Stellar Energy The chapter titled 'From Extraction to Stellar Energy' focuses on the impact of advanced technologies such as artificial labor, which combines robotics and AI. It discusses the potential disruptions to current societal systems like democracy, capitalism, and welfare. The chapter features Tony SA, an accomplished author and co-founder of RethinkX and Stellar, discussing insights from his co-authored book 'Stellar: A World Beyond Limits and How to Get There.' The discussion includes Tony's past predictions in 2006 about the rise of major tech companies like Apple, Google, Netflix, and Salesforce.
• 28:00 - 35:00: Autonomous Electric Transportation and Sustainable Systems The chapter focuses on the evolution of autonomous electric vehicles and sustainable systems. It highlights historical predictions made about the rise of trillion-dollar industries in solar energy and electric vehicles, starting as early as 2010. The narrative builds on these predictions to introduce the idea of a 'super abundant future' driven by advancements in these technologies. Key personalities include Tony, who is a visionary in the field, and CERN Basher, known for his forecasts in robotics and energy. Their discussions center around the ongoing and future transformations in energy and transportation sectors.
• 35:00 - 42:00: Artificial Labor and Future Convergence Technologies The chapter titled 'Artificial Labor and Future Convergence Technologies' discusses the anticipated impact of convergence technologies on the future workforce. It includes a dialogue where one person expresses admiration for a book they believe will be historically significant due to the terminology introduced. They've particularly noted the noble aspect of the authors donating proceeds to Stellar Worldwide.
• 42:00 - 49:00: Stellar Core and the Transformation of Humanity The chapter discusses a thesis about humanity moving into a world of super abundance aided by advanced technologies referred to as 'stellar technologies.' The key distinction is made between traditional technologies, which require constant input like labor, minerals, and resources, similar to fire, and these new technologies that presumably do not.
• 49:00 - 56:00: Social Implications and the Transition to a New World Order The chapter explores 'stellar technologies' and their transformative potential, comparing them to the sun in their ability to function without external inputs. This innovation is predicted to revolutionize societal structures and bring about a new world order. The speaker seeks to explain these technologies and provides a background on what inspired them to pursue this field.
• 56:00 - 63:00: The Path Forward: Challenges and Opportunities In "The Path Forward: Challenges and Opportunities," the speaker reflects on the past 20 years, emphasizing how their life and work have been driven by understanding technology disruption and its systemic consequences. The chapter begins with an introduction to the dual focus of the individual's efforts.
• 63:00 - 70:00: Disruption in Food Production and the Larger Economic Impact The chapter opens by exploring the concept of disruption, focusing specifically on disruptions in food production and the broader economic impacts. It posits that understanding and addressing some of the world's most challenging issues requires a comprehensive examination of how change and transformation occur. The discussion delves into the implications of these disruptions, considering not just the immediate effects but the cascading consequences that follow. The chapter emphasizes the need to evaluate how these implications feedback into and further exacerbate disruptions, particularly in the context of food production and economic stability.
• 70:00 - 77:00: Human Societal Change and Evolution This chapter explores the concept of human societal change and evolution, particularly in the face of historic disruptions. It discusses the comprehensive approach taken by the team at Rethinkx to understand the science of change by analyzing around 1500 historical disruptions. Additionally, it touches on the strategies to solve the world's most intractable issues by addressing them from their root causes.
• 77:00 - 84:00: Navigating the Transition: Economic and Social Strategies This chapter, titled 'Navigating the Transition: Economic and Social Strategies,' discusses the motivations behind forming the organization 'Rethink.' The author, along with co-author James Harve, identifies critical global issues such as climate change, inequality, poverty, and ocean acidification that are tackled by individuals with good intentions. However, there is a sentiment that efforts often lead to chasing tails rather than impactful change. The chapter aims to address these issues through effective economic and social strategies.
• 84:00 - 91:00: Long-term Economic Implications of Stellar Transition The chapter discusses the challenges and unintended consequences of addressing economic issues. Efforts to solve one issue often exacerbate others, leading to a continuous cycle of problems. The narrative highlights the complexity and interconnectedness of economic challenges, suggesting that solutions are not straightforward and can often lead to further complications within the system.
• 91:00 - 98:00: Global Cooperation and Potential Outcomes The chapter discusses a significant revelation discovered after years of collaboration with James Arbip. This revelation was related to both posed questions having the same answer, which was a major insight during their work on stellar. The transcript seems to introduce a transition to a new topic but does not clarify what follows.
• 98:00 - 105:00: Open Source vs. Monopoly in the Age of Stellar The chapter discusses the concept of extraction in a broad sense, equating it to activities like mining. It explores historical perspectives on how extraction has played a role in the world's functioning from ancient times, including the Roman Empire, Egypt, and ancient India and China.
• 105:00 - 112:00: Conclusion: Building a Collaborative Global Future The chapter discusses the origins of the first great civilization, Sumer, and examines the patterns and behaviors that are similar or different across various cultures and societies.

EXCLUSIVE: Tony Seba Predicts Super Abundant Utopia! Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 these sign points where AI builds itself with the existing hardware and humanoid robots start building themselves, building the factories that build the robots. Once we reach those ignition points, certainly within a generation, my niece Allison who's 22 years old, graduating in a couple of weeks, we'll see this. This is happening within the next generation. Whether it's six years or 20 years, we're going to see billions of robots substituting for existing labor, but creating a vast opportunity
• 00:30 - 01:00 space for things that we can barely think about today, right? Based on extraction, stellar energy, you build it to an ignition point, it becomes self-sufficient. It generates radiance. It generates super production. Autonomous electric vehicles, you have artificial labor. You know, essentially when all of these converge and all of these ignition points are not going to happen at the same time, but they're all going to happen in this generation. We're building a new platform for humanity. Stellar energy, solar, wind
• 01:00 - 01:30 and battery plus artificial labor, robots plus AI. You combine that and that's what we call stellar core. And that is the platform, the stellar platform on which you can build pretty much everything else. Medicine, transport, food, you name it. We are undergoing massive disruptions happening right now impacting humanity. We're seeing tremendous transformation in energy, transportation, food, intelligence, and labor. It's projected these costs will start falling to zero
• 01:30 - 02:00 with the rise of key technologies like artificial labor. That's robots plus AI. Everything about our current society like democracy, capitalism, and our welfare system will be upended. Today, we have a truly exceptional guest with us. Tony SA is an award-winning author, educator, and co-founder of RethinkX, and Stellar. We'll be talking to him about his new book he co-authored with James Arbib called Stellar: A World Beyond Limits and How to Get There. In 2006, Tony foresaw the rise of Apple, Google, Netflix, and Salesforce. In
• 02:00 - 02:30 2010, he foresaw the rise of a trillion dollar solar industry. And in 2014, he accurately predicted the ongoing trillion dollar rise of solar batteries and electric vehicles. Today, he's predicting and guiding us to hopefully a super abundant future, a stellar future. Welcome, Tony. Thank you for joining me today. Thanks for having me. And uh joining us as well, of course, is CERN Basher. He's a regular on my show. Uh he does a lot of forecast for uh robots and energy and others. So, thank you so much. Um, this is something that I've
• 02:30 - 03:00 been looking looking forward to talking to you about, Tony. First of all, I do personally love the book. Uh, it really uh something was I've been looking forward to and on I actually think that this book is going to go down hopefully in history because of the terms that you use. Uh, maybe these will be the terms that they end up using. Um, also appreciate that the proceeds is doesn't go to you guys. It's going to go to the Stellar Worldwide
• 03:00 - 03:30 Foundation. I'll put the link into the description. So, let's get started first with you know your thesis and you could explain to the audience uh what this is, but your my understanding is this right you uh believe that we're headed into a world of super abundance. It's coming. Yes. because of technologies that you're calling you're calling it stellar technologies and I think the difference is that the previous technologies like as a metaphor like fire you always need constant input you need to feed it labor and minerals and resources but these new
• 03:30 - 04:00 stellar technologies you're forecasting that eventually they're like the sun right doesn't require inputs anymore and that will just completely change our society can you explain stellar technologies we're done thanks for that explanation right uh yeah So, you know, before, you know, I I we we delve into into the book, um I just want to, you know, um give a little bit of background. So, what what led me to this? What led me to Stellar, right? Um
• 04:00 - 04:30 so as you know and you you talked about some of it over the last 20 years um my work and my life has been animated by two things um many things but especially two things. Um one is how does technology disruption happen right and what are the systemic consequences of
• 04:30 - 05:00 disruption right so um that's one and two how do we solve the world's most interactable issues from the root right so the first one needs us to go very broad right how does change happen? How does disruption and transformation happen and what are the implications and the implications of the implications and the implication of those and how does that feed back into this disruption and
• 05:00 - 05:30 other disruptions, right? Um so we need to go very broad and um you know with my team at Rethinkx you may or may not know we've looked at 1500 or so u historic disruptions to understand really how disruption the science of change. Um and the number two is you know how do we solve the world's most intractable issues from the root and you know the
• 05:30 - 06:00 the feeling that James Harve and I my co-author and I have had and the reason we started rethink to start with is that you know whether it's climate change or inequality or poverty or um you know u ocean acidification you name it um you There were a lot of good people with good intentions chasing tails, right? I mean,
• 06:00 - 06:30 basically bandating a lot of these problems but not solving any of them. Not even close to solving any of them. And in fact, what we felt was that, you know, in trying to solve one, they made others worse, right? So, uh, you know, choose your weapon and, you know, basically make everything else worse. Um, and so it turns out that after nine
• 06:30 - 07:00 years of working with James Arbip, we found that the answer to both of these questions, the answers are the same. And this was a big revelation. Um and this was you know one of the biggest revelations uh when we were doing stellar. So um so what is so now let's talk about um you
• 07:00 - 07:30 know what is stellar what is extraction where are we in this world? Um extraction you may think of as mining for instance, but um one of the things that we found in digging and digging and digging to understand how the world works today and how the world worked in Roman days and in Egyptian days and India and China and all the way back to
• 07:30 - 08:00 the world's great the first great civilization, Sumer. um you know h what is it that the world has what are the patterns what are the behaviors that are the same and what what's different right and you know we kept in rethinking humanity um we came up with some you know incredible insights but not with the root right we came up with the idea that the
• 08:00 - 08:30 socioeconomic political systems are very alike, right? The idea that 5,000 years ago, we had a government of the few, centralized, hierarchical, we had inequality, we had poverty, we had environmental destruction, environmental degradation, we had war, we had conflict. And not
• 08:30 - 09:00 just once in a while conflict. We had chronic conflicts like these things were part of whatever system of whatever caused it and none of this has gone away. Right? If anything, these have become bigger, right? So what is the root of all of that? And also what is the root of the good stuff? Because guess what? We live, those of us who are lucky enough, in a much better
• 09:00 - 09:30 world than 5,000 years ago or even 200 years ago. So we have made dramatic progress. Right? So whether you believe that these are the best of times or these are the worst of times, you're right. Right? So what's up with that? What's up with that? Right. Um so what so we kept digging and digging and digging and essentially we found what we
• 09:30 - 10:00 believe is the root cause of civilization. What is the driver of civilization? So going back to sumer um and a little bit before that um basically those civilizations created a system that we call extraction. You have humans and you have planet. So people and planet are inputs into the production system. So
• 10:00 - 10:30 whether it's agriculture, pottery, um mining, you name it. It was all about people and planet being inputs into a production system that produced, you know, useful outputs that we wanted and needed. Um but at the same time it generated all of these what we call toxic outputs right so all of these things that I mentioned inequality conflict war genocide forced
• 10:30 - 11:00 labor slavery all of these things are ingrained they're embedded in this what we call extraction engine so over time we created what's called wealth right And so land, labor, and capital has been basically from an economic point of view the three inputs into our production system. And now it's a million times bigger than it was in
• 11:00 - 11:30 Sumerian times. But the extraction engine is pretty much the same, right? they they they it it's people and planet are exploited to produce the good outputs and also it generates massive um what we economists call externalities but it's not just environmental it creates u toxic outputs um because it's and I'm going to start
• 11:30 - 12:00 throwing scientific terms it's a high entropy system right it destroys a lot more than it creates. So um you know as it produces heat and pottery and money and food and so on on an unprecedented scale, it also produces inequality, poverty, war, conflict and so on on an unprecedented scale, right? And that is the same system that we have had since
• 12:00 - 12:30 summer. Now um one of the qualities of extraction is that it's self-destructive. Right? We have seen every great civilization in the history of humanity self-destruct. Right? Because why? Because extraction has the key driver of extraction is the growth imperative. We
• 12:30 - 13:00 call the growth imperative. it has to grow right or it dies. So even in Sumer they had to you know agriculture once they started you know basically um creating better products agricultural products um you know population increased which meant that they needed more land which means that they had to expand and and which means that they needed more workers. And so if you have 10 little towns around that region, all
• 13:00 - 13:30 of which have that same growth imperative, then you see where conflict starts, right? Everybody needs to expand geographically. And when chronic, when conflict becomes chronic, then what do you need? You need a standing military, right? Um to essentially fight with your neighbors and so on. So all of these things, government, centralized governments, centralized militaries, hierarchies, you know, religion, uh,
• 13:30 - 14:00 inequality, all of these things stem from these same issues. But the the the the I won't go into all the details, but the key driver of extraction is the growth imperative. We have to grow. And the key issue for governments since Zumer has been to balance growth and stability, right? Social stability, environmental stability, economic stability with
• 14:00 - 14:30 growth, just raw pure growth, right? Um now they they haven't known this consciously but that has been you know the big the big um uh dichotomy right in all governments and in fact you know if you look at the last election in the US and I'm jumping a little bit to the president but if you look at the last election in the US um the two candidates offered either one thing
• 14:30 - 15:00 patch up the existing system stability or tear it down and grow more, right? Make extraction great again, which is, you know, the other candidate. So, they're all two sides of extraction, right? Either more stability or more growth. And that, you know, whether it's the British Empire or the Roman Empire, whatever. Um, essentially the key driver is the growth imperative, right? Yeah. And
• 15:00 - 15:30 so back to today um I said that extraction is selfdestructive right it will destruct every great civilization has self-destructed throughout history right because it's a high entropy system and it needs to keep growing it cannot stop growing because if you do somebody else will grow more they will out compete you right and in the past they used to
• 15:30 - 16:00 invade you well we still see some of that but not as much as in the past and take you a slave and etc etc right so um we're in the endgame of extraction we're in the collapse of extraction right we're we're seeing all of these issues you know at a scale that we have never seen before and we have for the first time in history
• 16:00 - 16:30 that that you know extraction is on a global scale. So collapse could be on a global scale right now. If that's all you hear from me, you'll be like, "Oh my god, what do I do?" Right? Uh this doesn't sound great. Um so here's the good news. The good news is that we have a number of technologies that we call stellar,
• 16:30 - 17:00 right? um that have dramatically different properties from extractive technologies. So let me go into some of them. Solar wind and batteries, right? stellar energy, um you know, um artificial intelligence, uh humanoid robots, um precision fermentation. These technologies
• 17:00 - 17:30 um don't have extractive flows. These technologies don't have toxic outputs. These technologies once you build them, you're done. the flow stops, right? And so they have different qualities that are dramatically different from extraction. So, you know,
• 17:30 - 18:00 in the past I've shown, you know, many instances of disruptions and how quickly they happen, right? And so, I've talked about some of the qualities of disruption. For instance, when we went from horses to cars, right? My god, that disruption happened so quickly, right? Instead of 10 years, America went from about 11% to about 80%. Car transportation, right? Boom. That was 100 years ago, right? Um and and and
• 18:00 - 18:30 that was a transformation. It was not just a disruption, right? Cars were not just a clean horse or a faster horse. they were a totally different transformative disruptive technology. So in understanding the the the the car versus the horse, we learn many of the qualities of disruptive transformations. But what I'm going to say now is that the car that I didn't say before, the
• 18:30 - 19:00 car is also an extractive technology. Mhm. So these these were two different forms of extractive technologies, right? You instead of hay to feed the horse and instead of the horse producing horse manure, you have gasoline feeding the car and you know that is an X flow, a constant flow of gasoline and you emit greenhouse gas emissions, right? So
• 19:00 - 19:30 they're both examples of disruptions that happen within the extractive production systems. Now so um natural gas power plants, coal plants um and so on are examples of electricity produced by the X flow, right? You need a constant flow of you know natural gas to produce electricity. When you stop that flow, you have an outage and you're
• 19:30 - 20:00 in trouble. You know, if that lasts long, your whole community goes down. You can't eat. You don't have transport. You don't have, you know, so many things that we take for granted. Solar, wind, and battery. And by the way, I speak about stellar energy. Solar, wind, and battery is stellar energy. Stellar energy is a transformation of the Xflowbased
• 20:00 - 20:30 um electricity system. How so? um you know I've explained before that um when you combine right that disruptions are in transformations are enabled by convergence many times right so um you know in the past um you know we've talked about how the iPhone right the convergence happened 2007 right why not you know why did the iPhone happen 2007 not 2005 5, not 2010,
• 20:30 - 21:00 because the convergence of all the technologies that made a $600 smartphone possible happened 2007, right? So now we have a convergence of solar, wind, and batteries. And the electric power system, the stellar energy system that SWB create is not just a cleaner version
• 21:00 - 21:30 of the system that we have. Yeah. Right. And we can talk later about all the issues that have come out of, you know, shoehorning stellar technologies into an extractive energy system, right? But to start um you know you build the SWB system is a higher order system meaning that it can do a lot more with a lot less but it's very different. It has different drivers different behavior and
• 21:30 - 22:00 different patterns. you build it right to make a decision to build the right the least cost um stellar system according to a U curve right extraction is very linear you go from one gawatt to 10 gawatt it's very linear right the things that you need to do um so we think of you know many people think of solar or wind and batteries as a onetoone substitution of
• 22:00 - 22:30 as a cleaner version of coal or gas or whatever it's not right the right to think of the right stellar system let's go back to how Amazon started Amazon web services right so um what happened you know first of all Amazon built its um it's it's its uh retail infrastructure for the winter for the
• 22:30 - 23:00 Christmas season, right? For four or five weeks of of the shopping season. And what that meant is that they overbuilt data center and computing capacity for the other 11 months, right? And then of course, you know, they decided to start leasing it the rest of the other 10 or 11 months and they created this trillion dollar company, right? But the idea was that they overbuilt
• 23:00 - 23:30 for the shopping season, for the winter. Um, and that's the same idea with with solar, wind, and battery. you build capacity for um the winter or the coldest darkest week of winter when you have the highest demand relative to the supply of wind and solar and you adjust capacity for solar, wind and batteries for those seven days or 14 days or
• 23:30 - 24:00 whatever. Right? Once you do that, right? then that is the cheapest energy system on the planet period right for the whole year um and we've done the numbers for Alaska for Germany for Brazil for India for everywhere pretty much um that that is the least cost system on the planet
• 24:00 - 24:30 now it is a transformation it is a higher water system and it has different properties, right? Different properties just like the car transportation system had different properties from the horse transportation system, you know, the stellar energy system has different property um properties. So for instance, one is that because you build for the
• 24:30 - 25:00 winter trough, you overbuild for the rest of the year. So you generate four, three, four, five times more kilowatt hours the whole year than the existing extractive system, right? Three, four, five times more. And that extra power is essentially free because you know you didn't build it for the summer, you
• 25:00 - 25:30 built it for the winter. We call that superpower. And in fact, we started seeing that pattern, right? J James Harve and I started seeing that pattern of super generation from all stellar systems. meaning it produces everything we need at least you know with the existing system and on top of that it produces three four five times more for
• 25:30 - 26:00 essentially zero or near zero cost right so the the stellar system because it produces so much extra energy that is clean super abundant and it generates no toxic outputs once you build it you're Right? You you you you know assuming that you know you build it, you size it to existing demand. Once you get it to what we call
• 26:00 - 26:30 um um the the the the ignition point, right? It ignites just like a star. It ignites and it basically goes from needing to be built to becoming self- sustaining. forever, right? So, it generates so much energy that that energy can be used to build itself, to repair itself, to heal
• 26:30 - 27:00 itself, to generate what we call um radiance, right? All of this amazing energy is essentially negative entropy, right? Essentially you can restore the planet, you can restore cities, you can restore the environment, right? So on top of creating a lot more product than the existing system, you generate the super production, this radiance which is
• 27:00 - 27:30 restorative. So we've gone from a system that is high entropy extraction to a system that is negative entropy that restores that gives back right it's a totally different ball game it has totally different you know properties and so on um so that's stellar energy and that's a disruption that is happening everywhere right and please interrupt if you have questions right
• 27:30 - 28:00 well what I love about the the technologies that you described is that the inputs is uh never ending like it's like like so the example you gave was uh solar, wind and energy. Both solar and wind it's like it's coming from the sun and the sun is just sending out energy. You don't need to keep feeding it oil and coal forever. You just Yes. Yes. transport. And so this applies to energy, transportation, food, intelligence, and labor. Um you've
• 28:00 - 28:30 already talked about energy and then of course my favorite one would be artificial labor but before we get there why don't you explain the others you know transportation and food for example. Yeah, I mean transportation I mean we've we've we've uh been working on you know what what is stellar transportation um right I mean today we have a system where you know we have individual ownership of combustion engine vehicles we have a billion cars around the world you know we we we need
• 28:30 - 29:00 you know um um all the land right uh cities are a third parking because we need so much you know land for for the cars, not for people, right? Um and and um of course we have all the toxic outputs, whether it's traffic, combustion engine, you know, greenhouse gases, um you know, the land that we need for for um you know, parking all these cars and
• 29:00 - 29:30 and on and on. Um cars kill you know, a million 1.3 million people every year, right? All of these are the toxic outputs right of the existing transportation system of the old extractive combustion engine individual ownership transportation system. So what is the stellar transportation system? Well, it's autonomous electric on demand transportation,
• 29:30 - 30:00 right? So you know robo taxis on demand um you know electric vehicles is one disruption and which I explained um in 2014 right I mean it's EVs have come down this cost curve uh you know since since 2014 when I published um clean disruption um and we we see what's happening in China right the the innovation about around the EV uh world is just stunning Right. And China has
• 30:00 - 30:30 now what 60 plus percent penetration of new energy vehicles. So that disruption is happening for economic reasons. You have the cost curve and you have the capability curve, right? That's textbook SA framework disruption. But you know this is not a onetoone this is not a clean combustion engine uh disruption, right? um the the the the autonomous technology, you know, it's there, right?
• 30:30 - 31:00 We see it. So, you know, if you if you live live in a city with, you know, Whimos or, you know, um you see these things work, it's been solved, right? And those companies that have not solved it are, you know, months away from solving the autonomous issue. So once you combine autonomous, electric, and on demand um and you have that EVs can last anywhere from 500,000 to a million miles, right? As opposed to 140 for
• 31:00 - 31:30 internal combustion engine automobiles. You see that you know the e AEVs robo taxis are going to last 10 years are going to cut the cost of transportation by 10 times maybe 20 times per mile right so uh in the old system um you know mainstream analysts look at the cost of vehicles you know the purchasing price right but if you
• 31:30 - 32:00 look at it over a million miles um you So the cost per mile of robo taxis could be five or 10 cents which is 10 or 20 times less than now. Right? So autonomous electric and on demand then what that system does is one each car is going to last seven times more than uh right today's cars do. We're not going to own them necessarily unless we own the robo taxi and we lease it out right
• 32:00 - 32:30 to a fleet. Um, and everybody will have access to transportation that is 10 to 20 times cheaper than now that doesn't need parking lots, right? Not to the extent that we do. We're going to need 75 80% fewer cars to basically provide more miles than the existing system. So again, it's a stellar system. The X flow stops, right? because it's electric
• 32:30 - 33:00 hopefully powered by stellar energy. Um the externalities, the outputs meaning you know killing a million plus people in accidents every year or you know greenhouse gases or you know pollution and so on killing other millions of people that stops right so stellar transportation is autonomous electric and on demand right and the batteries are recyclable so once you've built all the batteries you need all of it is
• 33:00 - 33:30 recyclable all the minerals there can be just reused again and again and again. It's like never ending. Like you don't there's no end to it. Not just not just that and thanks for saying that because that's another quality of stellar system. Um that the system can heal itself and can produce more from what it has. And what do I mean by that? Today, you know, with certain batteries,
• 33:30 - 34:00 right, like nickel um uh batteries, we produce we can produce batteries that from 15 years ago have about three times more metal than the batteries of today, right? So the the the the um um the energy density of today's battery is three times larger than it was 15 years ago. Meaning that with 15y old
• 34:00 - 34:30 batteries, we're not just going to recycle them. We're going to create three batteries from what used to be one battery. Does that make sense? Yeah. Got it now. That Yeah. So that makes the system self- sustaining. Does that make sense? So again, it's not a onetoone recycling. It's a self- sustaining, self-healing, self-improving system, right? So when and and that applies across the board. So the same thing is for um you know solar panels. The panels
• 34:30 - 35:00 of today have you know basically use a lot less material than the panels from 20 30 40 years ago. So in 20 years when the stellar energy system starts you know recycling the panels it's not recycling it's going to build two three panels from those old panels so it's self- sustaining it can actually improve itself heal itself and generate radiance does that make sense I love that very
• 35:00 - 35:30 much can we talk about artificial labor that's my favorite I know uh Cern and I love this so much so you you called it artificial labor which is the intersection of robots and AI. This is autonomous human robots, all sorts of robots but with AI in it. You call that a stellar technology. Uh explain that one. Yeah, stellar labor. So um you know it it if artificial intelligence and and humanoid robots are different manifestations, right? Physical and
• 35:30 - 36:00 digital of of similar kinds of of technologies. And uh as we know, well maybe we don't all know but um you know but but but but I've been talking about since I think I don't know since 2019 or 18 the idea that AI is improving on a double exponential basis. So for a lot of people exponentials are difficult and I get that right. um when when you
• 36:00 - 36:30 compound exponentially more slow right or or even you know battery 16 18% per year or solar it's 11% improvement per year or or right um the exponential improvement year after year after year is hard to visualize for the extractive mindset the extractive mindset is linear and it's incremental right um but Even
• 36:30 - 37:00 um you know for folks used to Morse law you know which is just about um you know 2x improvement every two years um we see AI improving double exponentially meaning that the hardware is improving exponentially and the algorithms the software is also improving exponentially right um so you you know It depends on which um source you look for and what
• 37:00 - 37:30 specific manifestation of AI. We've seen that AI has been improving at anywhere from 9 to 900 times per year, right? Which is kind of insane. Um can that continue forever? I don't know. But it's going to continue for many many years, right? I mean when I I think I said this publicly in 2019 AI is improving on a
• 37:30 - 38:00 double exponential basis right and it's still if anything it can be accelerating right so um it it the thing about AI is that um in double exponential and you know all of these disruptive transformations is that they open up new possibility spaces Right. So, a lot of folks see the disruption of labor as a onetoone. Oh,
• 38:00 - 38:30 they're going to take my job or whatever, right? Oh, but they can't do this and that or the other. Oh, you know, they hallucinate when they do X or whatever. Um and and you know, that's you know, essentially the wrong way to see it, right? um you know on a double exponential basis uh improvement in cost and capabilities you know um depending on who you ask um AI is going to be is
• 38:30 - 39:00 going to reach ignition point over the next I would say 10 years right I think it's safe to say 10 years a lot of folks are saying two or six but let's say over 10 years and what do I mean by that what we call the ignition point right is the point at which the system becomes self- sustaining meaning that the system
• 39:00 - 39:30 improves itself with the existing hardware and software. It can keep improving our itself without humans in the loop or with you know minimal human intervention. Um and I recently heard Eric Schmidt say that um you know that's going to happen in six years and he said we don't have a language for this. Well, I do. Right. It's the ignition point to
• 39:30 - 40:00 artificial labor um you know self- sustaining system. Does that make sense? So at that point it's not just going to be double exponential. there's going to be another feedback loop, right? That's going to make it even even faster. And we can say the same thing about humanoid robots, right? Um it's also increas improving double exponentially. Um and so the software and the hardware are improving double exponentially. Um each
• 40:00 - 40:30 one is improving exponentially. Um which means that you know inside of 10 years by about 2035 we should have not just millions of humanoid robots but you know they're going to be like a dollar an hour maybe 10 cents an hour right depending on you you know which exponential you measure. um for some tasks it may be a dollar an hour 10 cents an hour certainly by 2040 it's
• 40:30 - 41:00 going to be sub 10 cents right and that's now that is with extractive spreadsheets meaning by by by by that I mean even within existing manufacturing systems paying for extractive energy systems you know that's going to happen. But what happens which we'll see I don't know if in 10 years but surely we'll see over
• 41:00 - 41:30 the next 15 when you have robots building robots right and robots building the factories that build the robots right so on top of the two exponentials you will have another exponential loop or two right um and so that's kind of hard to comprehend how quickly um that's going to happen. And so the way that we see it um you know if you go
• 41:30 - 42:00 back 5,000 years extraction and our whole production system has been based on you know humans as an exploited input right we are part of the production system. um and you know plan it of course. But when we have these ignition points where AI builds
• 42:00 - 42:30 itself with the existing hardware um and humanoid robots start building the themselves and building the factories that build the robots um once we reach those ignition points essentially um you know what I'm at those points so let's say 20 years certainly within a generation Right? My niece Allison who's 22 years old graduating you know in a couple of
• 42:30 - 43:00 weeks will see this right this is happening within the next generation whether it's six years or 20 years I think from a societal perspective doesn't make that difference we have to be ready for this right because inside of 15 20 years we're going to see billions of robots essentially not only um substituting for existing labor, human labor, but creating a vast opportunity
• 43:00 - 43:30 space for things that we can barely think about today, right? Based on extraction. So again, stellar energy, you build it, you build it to an ignition point, it becomes self-sufficient, it generates radiance, it generates super production, right? Um then you have you know autonomous um u autonomous electric vehicles. You have um human I mean artificial labor AI plus
• 43:30 - 44:00 human ways. Um you know essentially when all of these converge and all of these ignition points are not going to happen at the same time but they're all going to happen in this generation. you know within 20 years certainly are going to happen then all of humanity right so essentially what that means is that we're
• 44:00 - 44:30 building a new platform for humanity right so stellar energy solar wind and battery plus artificial labor humanoid robots plus AI you combine that and that's what we call stellar core and that is the platform the stellar platform on which you can build pretty much everything else medicine transport food um you name
• 44:30 - 45:00 it right um you're going to build all of that on this stellar core right materials yes yeah okay so thank you for setting this up this is the exciting part I'm going to hand this off to CERN. In your book, you talked about how humanity is about to change big time, like big time. Everything about humanity is going to change. Yeah. Democracy may may not survive, capitalism, you know, the
• 45:00 - 45:30 welfare, these kind of things. But you describe it that it's going to be such a big change equivalent to when we were first um hunter gatherers caveman days and then then you became sumar where you had actually cities and governance and personal ownership all these things came about that societal change happened because of the extractive technologies as you explained but that took hundreds of years here you're saying 10 20 30 years society is going to change tre
• 45:30 - 46:00 something we cannot explain anymore more. So maybe I'll hand it off to you, CERN. Start asking those questions. What are we going to expect? Sure. Thank you, Herbert, and thank you, Tony. This is um such a great opportunity. Um I have a thousand questions for you. In in your book, you paint a beautiful picture of this new stellar world that we're heading to. And we all live now in this extractive world that we're all very familiar with. And I think a lot of
• 46:00 - 46:30 people are really struggling with how we get from point A to point B. And in the book you talk about here be dragons, right? Here are the issues that we're going to have to face. Yes. Right. Yes. We've got this beautiful map, but yet we know there's some some dragons along the way. So a few questions for you. one in terms of you know stellar energy with the growth in AI that you're talking about. Do you see it possible that AI
• 46:30 - 47:00 absorbs all of the energy that we can possibly give it and then some? Can can stellar energy outpace the hungry needs of AI to consume energy? Now I think a minute ago you mentioned that AI will get more efficient. We'll find ways that be less energy intensive. Absolutely. But even then, yes, there's no limit to the amount of intelligence that we can use in this world, right? So even even with a more efficient AI, it still will
• 47:00 - 47:30 need a lot of energy. So I'm curious about your thoughts on that idea. Right. Um so so yeah, look, great question. Um you the the um the path the journey from extraction to stellar is going to be very challenging because these two systems could not be more different. Right? We're going to go
• 47:30 - 48:00 from a system um extraction which is you know high entropy right highly destructive to people and the environment to one that essentially generates um no toxic outputs right one is you know based on the flow to one based on stock right um once that stock of computing or energy or whatnot is built then it regenerates itself self,
• 48:00 - 48:30 right? That it's it's self- sustaining just like the sun. That's what we call it stellar because just like the sun once it reaches ignition essentially um you know it can keep generating forever or four billion years whatever comes first. Um so so here's one of the amazing things about stellar technologies. um they don't have the growth
• 48:30 - 49:00 imperative. They have no need to keep growing forever. So, you know, the idea that, you know, we're going to keep growing to consume as much energy as we could produce and as much intelligence and whatever, as much computing and whatever, um is comes from extractive minds, right? that because the the Xflow has the growth imperative, we see everything growing, right? Um uh forever
• 49:00 - 49:30 or or whatever. Um now, is the creation of knowledge going to stop? No, it's not going to stop. We don't want it to stop, right? We want to solve, you know, all the world's most intractable issues. Medicine, cancer, longevity, happiness, you know, I mean, you know, we we want to solve all those issues, right? And this is a system that keeps improving itself, right? And so at one point when
• 49:30 - 50:00 it reaches ignition point, right, it'll design um you know, it's not going to be GPUs. It's going to be whatever stellar, you know, processing units that are a million times better than what we have today, you know, and I I don't know exactly what that is, but that doesn't matter, right? Because cost curves are like gravity, right? You know that cost
• 50:00 - 50:30 curves are going to continue and the AI double exponential is going to continue for a long time. The specifics of what a stellar processing unit looks like. is not for us to solve right now. But what the implications are of all that intelligence, all that knowledge is for us to solve. Does that make sense? Mhm. So I mean the the sim similar idea with
• 50:30 - 51:00 for instance with transportation as a service, right? With autonomous electric vehicles, they're going to go to near zero cost, right? transportation is first 10 cents per mile, then five cents per mile, then no cents per mile, right? U and and and because the energy is going to be essentially stellar and so on and so forth. Um does that mean that demand
• 51:00 - 51:30 for transportation is going to go up forever? You know, are we going to live in a car going around all day and all night? I don't think so. Some people may. It doesn't mean that nobody will, right? But by and large, it doesn't mean that we will, right? A lot of, you know, goods and services are priced near zero and demand doesn't go up to infinity. Does that make sense? Especially because our mindset which is you know in
• 51:30 - 52:00 extraction and we want more and more and more um the things that are rewarded today right storing things saving things and wealth and so on may not be in fact will not be rewarded in a stellar society right because you know everybody will have everything that they need forever. Not everything they want, but
• 52:00 - 52:30 everything they need for essentially ever. So, you know, do we want more and more and more and more, right? Um, if we have everything we need forever and our kids do and their kids do, probably not. Does that make sense? It does. But then when I think about the potential for development in space, suddenly are we setting up another growth imperative, right? To put mankind on Mars or elsewhere in space or to move production
• 52:30 - 53:00 into space because it's, you know, cleaner to do that. What What are your thoughts about that? Not at all. So, so you know that's a great question and and you know Jamie and I thought about it hard and um you know we we we thought about the Fermy paradox right and Stellar may well be right um an answer maybe not the answer but an answer to the Fermy paradox right which is you
• 53:00 - 53:30 know the Fermy paradox it's the idea that there is such a high likelihood that there's there is life out there in the universe But why haven't we seen anybody, right? Why haven't we seen a civilization outside our own ever? Right? Is that because we don't have the technology? Well, um, an answer is that stellar may be a key threshold for
• 53:30 - 54:00 civilizations. Meaning that if you're stuck in extraction, then you will have the growth imperative and you will need to grow forever, right? Nothing is going to be enough. You have to grow and therefore um you will have to roam the universe finding more resources. But you will only roam the universe if
• 54:00 - 54:30 you haven't self-destructed. Does that make sense? So the technologies that you need to roam the universe are probably the same technologies you need to self-destroy. Does that make sense? Now what that means is that only extractive technologies have the need to go on these, you know, roaming expeditions to find more resources, right? But then they may have self-destructed already. However, if the if a civilization pass that key threshold to stellar where
• 54:30 - 55:00 there is no growth in uh imperative where you have everything you need, it's a self- sustaining, self-healing, self-restorative uh civilization without the growth imperative. then you have no need to roam the universe looking for more resources. Does that make sense? In fact, you have so much energy because it
• 55:00 - 55:30 all comes from sunshine that we're going to be able to restore the planet itself. So, not only do is is is you know do we not need to grow outside, the planet will be more than enough. We'll have so much within a stellar society that we're gonna have we're gonna have enough energy and production to restore the world around us, right? Um and and
• 55:30 - 56:00 we you know just as an example we did we at Rethink X um and probably Adam door talked about it in your program. We did um we studied what the disruptions of energy SWB stellar energy stellar transportation autonomous electric and on demand um and food right so precision fermentation and cellular a um when we
• 56:00 - 56:30 have that disruption those three what's that going to do um to the environment right And one of the things that we found is that um just the disruption of food will allow us to restore reclaim right and reclaim 80 to 90% of the world's I mean a land mass equivalent to the whole United States the whole of
• 56:30 - 57:00 China and the whole of Australia. Does that make sense? Um so because these technologies are um you know 100 times more um efficient than livestock agriculture land efficient so we only need 1% of the land. Does that make sense? Um so in fact the earth what we're do we're a stellar world by building it we're going to go
• 57:00 - 57:30 from you know needing more than planet earth which is today to planet earth being 10 planets for what we need. Yeah. Does that make sense? When I talk to people about this Tony everybody's on board with stellar energy. I think that's a fairly easy one to understand. and also um AI and artificial labor. The one area I think where people are not as comfortable is this idea of precision fermentation. And I wonder if you can
• 57:30 - 58:00 just speak a little bit to concerns that people have about engineering our food. That that to a lot of people sounds very scary. Well, we already do. I mean, do you eat cheese? Does anyone out there eat cheese? Does anyone out there eat pizza? Right. Most cheese in the world is curdled with a prec precision fermentation enzyme. You already eat precision fermentation. You may not know it, right? Um so precision fermentation
• 58:00 - 58:30 has been used for food and medicine and cosmetics for 40 50 years already. You just don't know it. Does that make sense? Um now don't confuse precision fermentation with cellular agriculture right these are different so you know um the the precision fermentation is the idea is is the technology to um you know use yeast or
• 58:30 - 59:00 bacteria or whatever to make single molecules whether it's you know single protein casein or whey or sweet proteins I mean, one of my, you know, I'll show you my favorite chocolate in the world. I don't want to, okay, you can't see it. It's called ubi, right? Um, it's made with uh sweet protein, a protein called brazine, which is actually found in
• 59:00 - 59:30 nature. Um, and they essentially have made it via precision fermentation. Um, it's exactly the same molecule chemically. It's exactly the same molecule, right? So whether it comes from a yeast or the cow. And by the way, if it comes from the cow, it was fermented by the cow, right? The difference is that you know precision fermentation is clean and and your you know cheese, you know what had to go
• 59:30 - 60:00 through the cow's intestines and and blah blah blah, right? So go figure which one is clean. But the point the point is that we already eat foods that are made with precision fermentation. You just don't know it, right? Um the other point is that you know the the this is typical of the early stage of a disruption, right? No, this is never
• 60:00 - 60:30 going to happen. You know, I mean, when I talked about EVs disrupting combustion engine automobiles 10 years ago, no, you know, you're nuts. It's never going to happen. We love our cars. We have, you know, this special relationship. Well, we also loved our horses before the car disrupted horses, right? And and so on. So, these um you know are typical of the early stages of of disruption, right? But but since you asked, let me let me
• 60:30 - 61:00 give you you know a an example of how amazing you know these disruptions could be. Um you know um so if if we take the example of precision fermentation um they use you know this this sweet protein called brazine right and brazine is found in nature only it's not found in nature um in enough you know density to be extracted um uh
• 61:00 - 61:30 economically but one pound of Brazine is the equivalent to anywhere from 2 to 5,000 pounds of sugar. Right? Check that out. It's not a onetoone disruption, right? One single pound that is made via precision fermentation, you know, in the city will
• 61:30 - 62:00 disrupt so much sugar. It's not a onetoone substitution. Does that make sense? Um, so, so you know the land that we're going to take back and this is going to happen again for purely economic reasons, right? And and because I mean I never ate chocolate before because I don't eat sugar, right? I mean sugar has been out of my diet for 30 or 40 years, right? But I eat precision
• 62:00 - 62:30 fermentation Brazine, right? It is a protein with the nutrition of protein and the taste of the sweet taste. Um I mean not exactly the taste of sugar but um so it opens up immense possibility spaces. Does that make sense? Um and in the end it's going to happen for economic reasons. Let's talk a little bit about the human side of all this. And the first thing that comes to mind is how will this disrupt human reproduction if humans are
• 62:30 - 63:00 taken out of the loop of this, you know, of being in in this labor process, right? If we don't need humans for labor anymore. Yes. How does that change how humans re re reproduce? Is that it changes everything about humanity, right? And you know, one of the the and this is such a great question, CERN, because um you know, when Jamie and I wrote Rethinking Humanity, I mean, a lot of these ideas that ended up being in
• 63:00 - 63:30 Stellar were, you know, germinated when we um you know, we're writing Rethinking Humanity, but we kind of left the human out, right? Uh and and you know we we now believe not believe in understanding the Xflow and extraction and how that
• 63:30 - 64:00 changed humans that changed how we are and what we do and our belief system and our mindsets. Right? And it it changed them because we needed to survive in extraction, right? So, um you know, it didn't change us genetically, but the epigenetics of humans changed
• 64:00 - 64:30 dramatically. And you know, a lot of the dark side of humans came out because of extraction, right? And you know, um, forced labor, slavery, genocide, war. I mean, all of these things are awful, right? Are awful that and we've seen all of that throughout extraction. And that's the dark side of humanity.
• 64:30 - 65:00 Now, we know that that is not necessarily who we are. 100% but it is who we have been right we who we have been within the context of extraction right so um and everything we think we know in the social sciences psychology sociology economics and so
• 65:00 - 65:30 on which you know we thought were about the study of humans um and human nature nature. All of those sciences are really about the study of humans in extraction. Yeah. Right. So, you know, extraction has been like our water and we have been like the fish and and you know, certain behaviors have come out because they were rewarded by
• 65:30 - 66:00 the extractive system. Now with that in mind, once we get to stellar, who are we going to become, right? The other side of humanity is going to be rewarded. We believe, right? Collaboration, compassion, right? a kindness those things are going to be rewarded because the stellar one the most
• 66:00 - 66:30 important thing is that there is no growth imperative in stellar right extraction takes from people and planet stellar gives to people and planet right that changes everything so who we need to be in the stellar system is very very different um from who we need to be with an extraction. So um you know uh
• 66:30 - 67:00 extrapolating you know any details is really really hard because a lot of these things are emergent but I can tell you that because stellar is a system that gives rather than takes right um essentially we're going to be different right our the manifestations of humanity are going to be different within stellar Um because different things will be rewarded within
• 67:00 - 67:30 a stellar. Make sense? It does. You know why why you may not need to create humans or give birth to children because of labor and growth. But now if it's an abundant world, if you have support systems from humanoid robots or whatever it is, um maybe it doesn't cost you anything. You can have as many children as you want and you're going to be taken care of. Everybody will be taken care of. You'll be able to give them the best life possible. So it could kind of either wash out or in fact you never
• 67:30 - 68:00 know which way it's going to go. Yeah. Yes. It it it you know it could be either way right. It could be that you know what um exactly what you said right? Uh you know I don't want to give birth right there. There is no um you know any extraction. There was a compelling need by the state that you give birth, right? By the population, by the population, a compelling need, right? Um, you know, the the larger the population, the larger the economy and so on and so
• 68:00 - 68:30 forth, right? But within Stellar, there isn't that compelling need. So, you could go either way. You know, if you want to have 10 kids, you can have 10 kids because, you know, you will have everything they need and they will have everything they need. or you can say I want to have zero kids, right? So, it could go either way, right? And until we get there, um we won't know, right? Let's talk a little bit about the transition. Yes. Right. Um you're right in the book.
• 68:30 - 69:00 I'll just read a passage here. Yes. As we move from extractive towards stellar economics and money printing becomes necessary, inflation will attach only to what is scarce and remains in the old economy with the last products and services to transform seeing massive price rises. Increasing inequality along the journey is thus unavoidable. The vast majority of the population have little in the way of assets and are reliant on income from jobs that will come under threat.
• 69:00 - 69:30 That to me sounds like a recipe for absolute chaos. Yes. Right. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Could you help us see perhaps a little bit clearer way through this transition? Yeah. So I I would call it transformation. Um right because it's usually trans transition would imply it's a onetoone thing, right? Um it's you know a slightly different version of what we have and it won't be. It's going to be like a caterpillar and a
• 69:30 - 70:00 butterfly, right? Where, you know, I can tell you without a doubt, it's going to be dramatically different. Um, I can't give you all the details and nobody can because a lot of the details are going to be emergent, right? Um, but one thing is for sure. So, the extraction has already ruptured, right? It's over. Extraction is over. We are in the chaos. already, right? If you want to
• 70:00 - 70:30 understand why, it's because the system has ruptured, right? Um and right now, um we have a dual economy and we will for the next 20 30 years, right, until the first few societies um essentially go stellar. Um essentially, we're going to have the old extractive system which is not going to die overnight. and the stellar you know system, energy
• 70:30 - 71:00 system, labor and so on and so forth. Um extraction is based on Xflow and metrics like GDP right and and you know money printing uh you know USD and uh uh you know a monetary system based on the flow through you know a society a a production system based on stocks right um the economics of extraction essentially mean that you know what is economics in extraction it means um the
• 71:00 - 71:30 allocation of scarce resources. But economics in stellar means finding uses for super production. Right? So what scarcity is in extraction, super production, super abundance is in stellar. So how do you reconcile that right? How do you go from you know caterpillar extractive
• 71:30 - 72:00 caterpillar to stellar butterfly this period you know we don't know all the details we have a low definition map but we know that it's going to be very chaotic. So number one thing we need to know is that it's a dual economy. These two things need to be measured with different metrics. Right? It's not the same thing. We're
• 72:00 - 72:30 shoehorning solar and wind into the old extractive, you know, um, energy system. It's not working, right? It's producing hallucinations, hydrogen, you know, bofuels, uh, you know, um, hybrid cars, right? It's producing all of these hallucinations. And we call them that because um when you try to shoehorn a stellar technology into the old extractive system, you
• 72:30 - 73:00 know, things get out of whack, right? And so they come up with um flow-based solutions to solve the problems that should not exist to start with, right? If you started building the system from scratch then you would not need any of those solutions right. So um yeah so we have a dual economy um you know uh different technologies are going to reach ignition point at
• 73:00 - 73:30 different times and the first one is probably going to be AI right and then AL right and then um and and and then um um energy and then food and so on right so ignition points are going to be at different times along this journey Okay. And they're all going to happen for economic reasons, right? So, so these things are going to happen. Um the implications we need to be ready for,
• 73:30 - 74:00 right? Um so dual economy, keep track of both, protect people, right? So protecting people in the old system means something like a UBI, right? Universal basic income. But that's not going to work in stellar. So while you build the stellar system, right, because it has super abundance of energy and labor and so on, then what
• 74:00 - 74:30 you do is you start granting people what we call stellar output rights. And so the more you build stellar system, the more you grant those rights to people, right? Because the less they're going to need UBI because the monetary system is going to guess what collapse, right? Because
• 74:30 - 75:00 um and this is very scary. But if denial is not, you know, useful in this case, right? So what is wealth right money in extraction? Um so beyond the idea that it's a store of value um and a means of exchange, it's really a means to
• 75:00 - 75:30 harness land and labor, right? So capital, land and labor produces you know pretty much everything in extraction. So capital is a means to harness land and labor. But what happens because stellar so what is the you know one of the most amazing qualities of stellar is that it
• 75:30 - 76:00 embodies land labor and capital right so after ignition it essentially um you know can keep itself going and prove itself, it becomes self- sustaining, right? Um but and essentially it means that what we think of as land and labor and later capital are going to be
• 76:00 - 76:30 embodied in the system. Does that make sense? It's all going to be in the system. So if we don't have an extraction flow, if energy and land and all of that is embodied in the system, what is the meaning of capital? What is the meaning of money? Right? It's all in the AI and in the AL and in the, you know, stellar
• 76:30 - 77:00 system. Does that make sense? Um, so everything is going to change at the same time. I guess the the follow-up question I have for you there, Tony, is that in today's world, we've got some of the largest enterprises on the planet developing AI and artificial labor. Yes. And so by default, they're going to end up owning that, right? And furthering furthering this inequality, I guess. Yes. How how do you see the mechanism for that transformation that you're
• 77:00 - 77:30 speaking of to Yeah. Stellar ownership rights? Yes. Yes. That's a brilliant idea. But how do we get from one system to the other? To the other. Exactly. So um you know one one of the things we have to we want to think of the um you know the stellar core as a platform just like the internet. The internet is not owned right. Um, and that's one of the
• 77:30 - 78:00 reasons it it's wide open, open source and unowned. So, you know, we built trillions of dollars of wealth, right, on the internet because of that because it was open source, it was not owned, you know, anyone could, you know, jump in and develop apps and so on and so forth, right? Um, same idea with um the interstate highway system, right? The interstate highway system is not owned
• 78:00 - 78:30 and you know it created tens of trillions of dollars of wealth, new housing, new types of companies and so on. So we need to think of the stellar core as a stellar platform that needs to be unowned and it needs to be open. So we need to really intentionally right make sure that um AI
• 78:30 - 79:00 AL uh and energy are open source open source open weight open everything right that you know um during this transformation we are going to need private enterprise to invest and develop and and they're doing that right Um but um we need to develop something like a
• 79:00 - 79:30 patent system right we've had the system for medicine for instance patent right um for hundreds of years in which you know new medicines are given 20 years and that's the incentive during those 20 years you make a lot of money but then it reverts to the public so we absolutely absolutely need to Think of um artificial labor as an open-source
• 79:30 - 80:00 unowned system that needs to revert, right? And become not owned, right? Um so that we can develop all the other like apps, right? Whether transportation, housing and so on. These things we think of as apps. all that wealth on top of the core the stellar core which is um again because I want to repeat you know that it's really
• 80:00 - 80:30 important that we keep artificial intelligence and human robots and and energy unowned and open source after 20 years right um and and so that's one possible mechanism right I mean it's I don't know if it will be it'll be the mechanism but the core idea is that it needs to revert
• 80:30 - 81:00 to become you know like the internet like the interstate highway system a platform to build wealth make sense yeah in in terms of again this transformation we've got yes highly indebted nations Yes. That are going to find themselves dealing with massive amounts of deflation from these these technologies. Yes, they do not want deflation because
• 81:00 - 81:30 paying off that debt then becomes impossible or very challenging. The governments would be highly incentivized to continue their inflationary ways. And I think you suggest in your book they just print money. Mhm. And I guess you're also suggesting in the book that there's this dual dual path that fiat currencies basically print themselves out of existence and something like Bitcoin for example fills the fills the void in terms of a
• 81:30 - 82:00 scarce place for people to park their wealth and and move from one system to the other. Is that an accurate characterization of how you see that? Yes. So you know I mean if if you you know if you if you I if you understand for instance there there are other voices that um good voices like Ray Dalio who is saying that the existing monetary system the ex existing monetary order is breaking down right but um and and and that's you know
• 82:00 - 82:30 great amazing work and that but you know from that we understand that we're going from you you know, one nation or one region to another, right? One fiat currency to another, right? But but the existing system is breaking down, right? What I say and what you know we say Jamie and I and and Stellar is that the whole monetary system is breaking down, right? The the the I mean money was, you
• 82:30 - 83:00 know, if you think of money, we've only had money since well, you know, um suare and so on, right? because of extraction we've had money to harness labor and capital and and and people and climate right um uh so what happens when you know uh land and labor when land and labor are embodied and even capitalist embodied I mean the monetary system is
• 83:00 - 83:30 going to break down right it is going to break down no matter what and it's not going to be from one you going to another fiat coin, it is going to break down, right? Um, and again, I want I want to um emphasize that the stellar production system is going to happen for purely economic reasons, right? Because cost curves are like gravity. AI cost curves,
• 83:30 - 84:00 AL cost curves, you know, SWB cost curves, um, and so on. So it is going to happen whether we want it or not. So taking that into account, taking into account that these are deflationary. So we're not seeing them yet that deflation. Um but they are massively deflationary. Um essentially we need to make sure that we build capacity in our
• 84:00 - 84:30 economy before the monetary system breaks down. Mhm. Right. So whether you believe that value is right or SA and ARB are right, the monetary system is breaking down. The one thing that you need to build urgently no matter what you think whether SBA or Dalius right is the stellar energy system right because if you build the stellar energy system you
• 84:30 - 85:00 can bounce back right you can build the rest of the stellar economy or right you can have a semistellar economy for a long time based on stellar energy, right? But if you don't build it right, before this system breaks down, then you're in trouble because essentially the capital, the extractive
• 85:00 - 85:30 capital that we think of as a constant of the universe, but we know it's not, is going to disappear. It's going to crash, right? No matter whether you believe in ra and what Dalio says or I say that capital is going to go. So what that means is that it is urgent for you to build the stellar energy system no matter who you believe. And number two it's urgent that you build the AL system right now. The fact that AL is improving
• 85:30 - 86:00 on a double exponential basis means it's probably going to happen like a lot faster than the stellar energy system. I mean the ignition point is going to happen. Um but um you need to build both but number one is the stellar energy system right it it it uh but you know it's not a choice in if you will right because one way or another with you know
• 86:00 - 86:30 our monetary system you know is is in um in you know in and will continue to be in kind of chaos. Can you speak to what you're thinking what the stellar society could look like in terms of uh I mean this is the thing that just blown me away right uh you you explain it so articulately in the book where you explain why it is that we have a government why we have legal systems why we have personal ownership we have capitalism democracy
• 86:30 - 87:00 all these things a lot of this is going to break down or change transform into a new thing what is it going to be if it's not democracy what it will what will it be if it's not capitalism Are we going to be like socialist communism but abundant? Uh what where are we going? Yeah. No, no, I I mean that's a great question. So So you know take socialism communism out of the picture. Um that is just you know a different ism and one that did not work really well is a
• 87:00 - 87:30 different way to try and organize extraction. Right? So, you know, we've had many isms, fascism, communism, socialism, capitalism, you know, we've had many isms as ways to organize extraction. Right. Right. and and capitalism and democracy um basically is the combination that made more
• 87:30 - 88:00 sense because you know is the most ruthless form of extraction is the one that creates the most useful output. Right? That's why it won. Um and again for purely economic reasons it made sense. Um, and none of it applies in a world of super abundant, right? All of these isms and
• 88:00 - 88:30 in the past, I mean, you know, starting, you know, with Sumer and, you know, may maybe a couple of civilizations before um I mean, you know, in the days of Hunter Gathering, we had no centralization, we had no government, we had no ownership, right? We had no money. We had no debt. We had no military. We had all of these things were adaptations that made the
• 88:30 - 89:00 societies that adapted to them more efficient and more vicious, right? That it made those societies more adapted to the growth imperative, right? And that's why societies that have some sort you know of a core group of people small core of people managing it and that whether it's
• 89:00 - 89:30 kings or priests or military or democracy I mean all of these um have had are you know relatively different in many ways but in one way they're the same in that it's only a small group of people managing things for the rest of us, managing the X flow. In other words, for the rest of us, you have a standing military that comes from the X flow,
• 89:30 - 90:00 right? From the growth imperative. Um and you know militaries or you know you have um ex uh the dynamics of production in extraction favor centralization and favor command and control and favor hierarchies. That's why you know we have around the world hierarchies and centralization. Uh and we see this over
• 90:00 - 90:30 and over again around the world and through time, right? Um but all of these things, none of these things are a constant of the universe, right? All of these were adaptations that took thousands of years from hunter hunter gathering days through sumer maybe 5,000 years for you know organizations and societies adopting one
• 90:30 - 91:00 thing and experimenting and whatever until it clicked right and then it's going to be you know it's been copy paste. Now if there is no growth imperative and there is no X flow right and there is no extraction engine and there is no toxic output all of which are intrinsic to extraction then what are the organizational structures that you need for
• 91:00 - 91:30 seller they're not the same right in extraction you need to be brutally competitive, predatory if you will, right? Uh it brought out, you know, a lot of the negative in us. But stellar technologies, whether it's solar panels, batteries, you know, e avs, precision fermentation, all of these are distributed, right?
• 91:30 - 92:00 Decentralized. They're incredibly scalable, right? All of these technologies work you know at the house level and company level and regional level and national level um which is not the case with um extraction right. So the patterns and dynamics and behaviors that will make stellar infrastructures work are going to be different are going to be network. The network and the node
• 92:00 - 92:30 are going to be open source are going to be collaborative because you don't have growth imperative right knowledge is not a competitive advantage. In fact, you want to tell your neighbors, here's how how how this is how it's done because it's in your best interest for your neighbor to go stellar. Why? The only way in which you can be safe militarily
• 92:30 - 93:00 and so on is if your neighbor is stellar, abundant. Mhm. Does that make sense? They have everything. Does that make sense? they have everything they need and they have no growth imperative, right? Um so the things that you need from open source to collaboration to networking and uh and so on are the opposite of what you need for um for um uh basically extraction. Well,
• 93:00 - 93:30 um the period from extraction to stellar these 20 30 years are going to be immensely I mean it's going to be dramatic change everything we know is going to change and we're going to try and put what we um you know our thoughts in terms of extraction. If your mindset is an extraction, you won't be able to see the
• 93:30 - 94:00 opportunity space. Right? This is not social. This is not any ism that you know because there has never been a civilization with super abundance and and and and radiance and super production and and no growth imperatives. Never. Right. Um so uh you know and in fact one of the things that I think um is that at the human
• 94:00 - 94:30 level it's going to need we're going to need stellar humans to make a stellar society happen. So this is not a transformation that's out there. It's also a transformation that's in here. each person. Yeah. Yes. In each person. So that's great. You know, it's it's we have to change our mindset to become more stellar. And if we do, then
• 94:30 - 95:00 it's going to be the most amazing journey for you personally and for humanity ever in history. It's unbelievable that it's all going to potentially happen in 10 to 20 years. You map this out really well with the cost curves and everything. Um, you know, just like I said, it's gravity. you want it is extended and you've been projecting it so perfectly well. Tony, thank you so much uh for your time. I encourage people to go and get the book. I will put the link in the description. Check out the website rethink x. Um boy,
• 95:00 - 95:30 if you have a think tank, can I join you? This this kind of conversation, this is just mind expan enhancing. I really want to participate in making sure the future is good. Check out his website, RethinkX. uh website tony siba.com and on X you can follow him at Tony Siba and the what is it uh Stellar found world foundation that's another yes the stellar worldwide foundation um essentially we set up the
• 95:30 - 96:00 foundation to guide the world to invest in making these ideas happen in creating a yes and creating a stellar nursery right um and to your point. We need you. We need fellow travelers. We need stellar entrepreneurs. Um, you know, only you can make it happen, right? And in your community, in your region and, you know, we have everything we need to
• 96:00 - 96:30 take, you know, the first step and make sell happen. This is fantastic. Thank you so much, Tony. Thank you. Last comments. Thank you, Tony. It was great great to speak with you today. Thank you. My pleasure. Thank you. I've created a website that is the most comprehensive resource for the Tesla investor. Please check it out. Simply go to my website at herbert.com.