"Exporting TERRORISM!" India-Pakistan Debate With Ranveer Allahbadia & Hina Khar

Summary

This intense discussion on Piers Morgan Uncensored touches on the long-standing tensions between India and Pakistan, focusing on a recent escalation linked to a terrorist attack. The debate features heated exchanges between journalists and former diplomats, paired with perspectives from USA's diplomatic engagement in diffusing potential conflict. Both nations, claiming victories, delve into accusations and defended military actions. Historical context of the Kashmir conflict, India's allegations of terrorist havens in Pakistan, and Pakistan's counterpoints form the crux of the discourse. Ultimately, it spotlighted the challenges in achieving long-term peace in the region.

Highlights

• The debate opens with a fiery accusation of Pakistan as a state exporter of terrorism 🎤.
• A US brokered ceasefire is praised for preventing full-scale war amidst escalating military actions ✌️.
• Panelists ranged from seasoned diplomats to young influencers, adding diverse perspectives 🎙️.
• Historical context of Kashmir's contentious geopolitical situation is delved into 📚.
• Economic comparisons are drawn, highlighting perceived inferiority and the desire for non-hyphenation by Pakistan 💼.

Key Takeaways

• Pakistani leadership argues India exports vaccines while Pakistan is accused of exporting terrorism 🤔.
• The US brokered a ceasefire leveraging trade deals, applauded by both India and Pakistan for diffusing tensions ☮️.
• Debate participants include Indian and Pakistani representatives, highlighting the polarizing narratives of both nations 📢.
• Kashmir remains a flash point with unresolved historical baggage, despite numerous militarized skirmishes ⚔️.
• Both nations wield nuclear arsenals, which intensifies global concern and need for diplomatic intervention 🚨.

Overview

The episode starts with a deep dive into recent conflicts between India and Pakistan, punctuated by accusations of terrorism and counterclaims of aggression. Right off the bat, explosive discussions challenge the idea of peace talks being viable amidst ongoing violence and propaganda. The air is laden with tension as each side presents its narrative with authority and urgency.

As the conversation progresses, the role of the US as a mediator is highlighted. Via trade deal incentives, the US is credited with steering both nations back from the brink of war. It's a contentious issue, questioning if economic leverage should be a tool in diplomatic resolutions. Yet, the prevailing sentiment is relief as hostilities temporarily cease, allowing space for dialogue.

Historically embedded conflicts over Kashmir resurface as a significant discussion point. Despite decades of skirmishes, the region remains unresolved. The conversation further uncovers deep-rooted political distrust and nuclear standoff risks, posing a somber reminder that regional stability is precarious. Such dialogues underscore the need for holistic approaches to peace.

Chapters

• 00:00 - 02:00: Introduction and Background The chapter titled 'Introduction and Background' discusses Pakistan's strategic position in countering Indian military supremacy. It presents a perspective that challenges the prevailing notion of India's conventional dominance in the military sphere. A key point raised is the capture of a man near a military base in Pakistan, raising questions to the global audience about his presence there. The narrative brings to light Pakistan's ongoing efforts to combat terrorism, contrasting India's global image of exporting vaccines and technology with Pakistan's challenges in dealing with terrorism.
• 02:00 - 04:00: Ceasefire and Political Perspectives The chapter titled 'Ceasefire and Political Perspectives' details the aftermath of a US-brokered ceasefire between India and Pakistan. Both nations have declared victory following the cessation of hostilities, which threatened to bring the two nuclear-armed countries to the edge of war. The conflict escalated with missile and drone attacks targeting major military installations, reaching a precarious flash point. Praise was directed towards President Trump and Marco Rubio for their roles in de-escalating the situation, reportedly by leveraging trade deals with both countries. In the end, both India and Pakistan claim to have demonstrated their military superiority over the other.
• 04:00 - 08:00: General Wesley Clark's Analysis The chapter discusses the tense military standoff between India and Pakistan, with a focus on General Wesley Clark's analysis. The narrative describes parades held by India near the border, emphasizing their military strength and confidence, and the resultant psychological impact on Pakistan's army. Questions arise regarding the durability of the ceasefire, the role of U.S. trade policy under Trump as a potential instrument of peace, and the truth behind the aggressive propaganda from both nations. Key speakers include Hina Rabani Kh, a former Pakistani foreign affairs minister, and Barkadat, a notable public figure, contributing their insights on the situation.
• 10:00 - 15:00: Barkha Dutt's Commentary The chapter titled 'Barkha Dutt's Commentary' begins with an introduction to Barkha Dutt, a prominent Indian journalist and commentator. The transcript transitions into a segment where the show is expected to feature two young influencers from India and Pakistan later on. However, the primary focus at the moment is an interview with Wesley Clark, a retired four-star US Army general, who shares his insights on a tense, potentially dangerous situation that recently escalated but has now calmed down. General Clark notes this as the fourth such occurrence, suggesting a pattern of recurring issues.
• 15:00 - 23:00: Hina Rabbani Khar's Response In the chapter titled 'Hina Rabbani Khar's Response,' the discussion focused on the longstanding tensions between nuclear-armed neighbors, particularly highlighting the historical conflicts over Kashmir since the independence in 1947. The narrator reflects on the potential dangers posed by such flashpoints due to the nuclear capabilities of both nations. Despite the exchanges, there seems to be reassurance by the fact that military confrontations, particularly involving air forces, remained largely contained within their respective territories.
• 26:00 - 30:00: Introduction of Additional Guests The chapter introduces a tense scenario involving potential conflict between Pakistan and India in 1990. It discusses engagements carried out with long-range missiles and air-to-surface strikes. Air defenses were activated, highlighting the seriousness of the situation. During this critical time, the Pakistani leadership was in the United States, visiting the National Training Center. It is revealed that during the visit, they received a call indicating that nuclear weapons had been prepared and loaded onto aircraft, signaling the brink of war between the two nations.
• 30:00 - 35:00: Ranveer Allahbadia's Perspective The chapter discusses the ongoing tension between countries concerning the Kashmir region. It highlights how both nations have domestic political pressures that simultaneously push for confrontation yet discourage escalation. The current situation is described as temporarily resolved but potentially unstable, signifying Kashmir as an ongoing 'flash point' that requires careful management to prevent further conflicts.
• 35:00 - 41:00: Shehzad Ghias Shaikh's Rebuttal The chapter titled 'Shehzad Ghias Shaikh's Rebuttal' discusses a debate situation filled with rhetoric and animosity where both parties involved are claiming victory. The White House and the Trump administration believe they achieved success by using trade deal initiatives to swiftly force a ceasefire, which is also part of the discussion. Questions are raised about the belief in the effectiveness of this strategy.
• 60:00 - 63:00: Piers Morgan's Input and Final Thoughts The chapter titled 'Piers Morgan's Input and Final Thoughts' discusses the complex dynamics of resolving issues through trade deals and military influence. A military man shares his views, humorously suggesting that taking credit for successful resolutions is beneficial. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the motivations of all parties involved, acknowledging that this understanding is often lacking. The chapter explores the idea that strategic use of tariffs, if effective, could be beneficial, but this relies heavily on timing and the unknown intentions of negotiators.

"Exporting TERRORISM!" India-Pakistan Debate With Ranveer Allahbadia & Hina Khar Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 Pakistan is a country which has broken the myth of Indian conventional supremacy in war theater in a way which is that display to the whole world. My question to the world is about this man. I hope everyone's able to see this person's face. He was found 800 m from a military base in Pakistan. I have no narrative other than the one that the world should know. We are combating terrorism because if India exports vaccines and engineers, Pakistan exports terrorism.
• 00:30 - 01:00 India and Pakistan are both declaring victory after a US brokered ceasefire called time on a skirmish which brought two nuclear powers to the brink of potential war. Well, several days of escalating clashes reached a dangerous flash point with both countries launching missile and drone strikes on major military bases. Both sides are praising President Trump and Marco Rubio for diffusing the tensions. The US reportedly leveraged trade deals of both of them to get it done. And both sides say they have asserted their military superiority over the other. Pakistan
• 01:00 - 01:30 held parades near the border to shower the military in pedals. India's defense minister said the roar of Indian forces reached the very headquarters of the Pakistan army. But the questions now are will the ceasefire hold and for how long? Is Trump's cavalier trade policy an important weapon for peace? And after days of an intensive propaganda offensive by both sides, who is right and who actually won? To discuss all this and more, we have Hina Rabani Kh, the former Pakistan foreign affairs minister, and Barkadat, a well-known
• 01:30 - 02:00 Indian journalist and commentator. Later on the show, we'll be joined by two young influencers from India and Pakistan. But first, we have Wesley Clark, a retired four-star US Army general, to give us his thoughts on where we are with this. General Clark, great to have you back on Uncensored. Um it it all looked very scary for a few days and now we seem to have been be calmed. Um we've seen flare-ups before. It's the fourth time I think we've seen uh a a sort of situation like this since
• 02:00 - 02:30 independence in 47, three times over Kashmir. How dangerous was this flash point in your estimation? And how reassured are you by the way it's played out? It was dangerous. Um because anytime you have nuclear armed powers exchanging fire, uh that's dangerous. As far as I can tell, the planes mostly stayed on their own soil. The air-to-air
• 02:30 - 03:00 engagements were fought with long range missiles. The strikes were done with air-to-surface missiles. Air defenses were engaged. Um, on the Pakistani side, I I was with the Pakistani leadership in 1990 when they almost went to war with India again. I was hosting them in the National Training Center. They told me um in the middle of the uh visit said we we're going to go back to Pakistan. The nuclear weapons have been uploaded to the aircraft. We're going to war. Of
• 03:00 - 03:30 course, nothing. They did not go to war. So, um these incidents do happen. Uh I'm relatively comfortable that this one has been resolved temporarily. Kashmir will remain a flash point but the domestic politics in both countries on the one hand argue for continuing confrontation and on the other hand argue not to escalate. So I think we're in a sort of stable
• 03:30 - 04:00 position with a lot of rhetoric and animosity and I'm glad to see both sides claiming victory. Yeah. Um also claiming victory is the White House and the Trump administration in the sense that they believe that the way they used trade deal initiatives to try and force a ceasefire proved very swiftly effective. A a do you believe that? and B, if that is the case, you know, it's an
• 04:00 - 04:30 interesting way of resolving this kind of thing. I mean, are you in favor of it as a military man? Well, I I love the fact that uh that we're taking credit for having done this. Uh if trade deals can do it, um let's have more tariffs and then being able to relax them at the right time. I'm just being a little bit uh humorous here, but um if it did help, that's great. We dou don't actually know that because we don't actually know the motivations on either side and actually
• 04:30 - 05:00 I think both sides were looking for an excuse not to go further. Do you think Pakistan is there any doubt that these extremists who carried out the initial terrorist attack killing all these Hindu men, do you think there's any doubt that they were working in some form with Pakistan or could it be that Pakistan has lost control of extremists like this? Well, I think there's a little bit of both, Pierce. I think there are elements uh in
• 05:00 - 05:30 that terrorist group that Pakistan doesn't control. On the other hand, I think the Pakistani leadership wants to keep the pressure on India in Kashmir. So um without more detailed intelligence it's a little hard to know but it would be the logical response of India to assume that this was a premeditated prepared uh action by the Pakistani military and if it wasn't uh it's
• 05:30 - 06:00 incumbent upon Pakistan to take the corrective action publicly against these terrorist groups that indicate it won't happen again. Unfortunately, this seems to be Pakistan's method of expressing its angst over Kashmir and it has gone on at a low level many times without any overt major uh reaction by India. So, uh they finally crossed the line. India reacted. Uh I hope Pakistan will get these groups
• 06:00 - 06:30 under control. There there's so many more important issues in the world than fighting about Kashmir. There's got to be a way to resolve this. you know, Kashmir um hits the news whenever these flash points uh blow up. Um you know, it's it's a an area the size pretty much around the UK sort of size. Um China has a piece of it, India has a piece of it, Pakistan has a piece of it. Um and you know there've been like I said these flare-ups now going on for you know
• 06:30 - 07:00 since 47. Will it ever get resolved? Will it ever get resolved? For those who are kind of uninitiated about it, what what is the big deal about Kashmir? Why is it such a flash point? Well, when when Israel when India was divided basically there was no resolution to Kashmir because the populations were intermixed because it's a very uh attractive area. Uh it is in part a vacation site. uh Indians and Pakistanis both craved it, both wanted
• 07:00 - 07:30 it and it was left uh under a temporary Indian control and that's that's where it's it's been and there's no way easy way to resolve this. Um and um I think uh there are some things that just are not in the near term resolvable and so when you try to solve them, you make the problem worse. It it's a perpetual thorn in the side of both countries. Uh but India can't give it up. There are Indian citizens. There's the politics in India
• 07:30 - 08:00 and Pakistan can't give up claiming it. And there's the politics in Pakistan. Both public politics and the internal politics in the Pakistani military leadership and and the the civilians who nominally head the Pakistani government. And so it's it's like a badge of honor. And so uh it sits there festering and festering and festering and uh nudging back and forth and trying to get some marginal
• 08:00 - 08:30 advantage. General Clark, we were just you were freezing up a little bit there. Uh but I got the general point of what you were saying and I greatly appreciate you coming back on censored to give your perspective on this. Thank you very much. Thank you. Well, let's get into this debate now with Hina Rabani Kh, the former Pakistan foreign affairs minister and Bakadat, a well-known Indian journalist and commentator. Okay, Bakad um welcome to Uncentered to both of you. First of all, um this is a for the rest of the world,
• 08:30 - 09:00 it's been a scary week to watch uh how quickly things escalated. Both sides blaming each other. Both both sides now claiming victory. A lot of disinformation swirling around the internet making it very very difficult for people outside the immediate vicinity to really know what has happened here. What What is your overview of where things have played out? Tax day has passed, but for millions of Americans, that's where the
• 09:00 - 09:30 trouble begins. The IRS is now ramping up enforcement for those who miss the April deadline or still owe back taxes. Well, today's sponsor, Tax Network USA, can still help. If your books are a mess, if you're self-employed, or if you're a business owner, Tax Network USA specializes in cleaning up financial chaos and getting you back on track quickly. They say the IRS is applying enforcement pressure at levels they've never seen before. But even after the
• 09:30 - 10:00 deadline, it's not too late to take control. Your consultation is completely free. Acting now could stop stop penalties, threatening letters, and surprise levies before they escalate. Call 1 8009581000 or visit tnusa.com/pers. That's tnusa.com/perse. Let Tax NetworkUSA make the next move, not the IRS. Hi peers and uh thank you for having me.
• 10:00 - 10:30 You know I've spent the last uh two weeks on the ground first in Kashmir after the terror attack that triggered uh this entire uh situation military escalation between India and Pakistan and then in uh the states of uh Punjab as well as uh the area of Jammu. The reason I mention this is because it's been absolutely shocking what I have witnessed in the last few days. Pakistan uh which was seeding because India
• 10:30 - 11:00 attacked terrorist bases inside its territory tried to target civilian areas and places of worship inside Indian territory. This led the Indian military to target their air bases when their air bases took serious damage is when Pakistan dialed Indian officials here and asked for a ceasefire. This is the exact sequence of events. Before Hinarani car gives her perspective, I
• 11:00 - 11:30 heard the tail end of your conversation with General Clark and I have to say as an Indian, I am just so exhausted, bored and irritated by the bothidism that the western world and the western media imposes on jihadist terrorism. The two bases that were targeted by India were the headquarters of the Lashkar Tiva and the Jes Mohammad. The Lashkar Tiva is recognized as a terrorist group by the
• 11:30 - 12:00 United Kingdom and the United States, forget India. Since 2001, the UK has recognized the Lashkar Tiba as a terrorist group. that Jes Muhammad, the terrorist who heads it was released after an Indian plane was hijacked in IC81 uh called IC814 in 1999. And the terrorists who hijacked it demanded the release of this man who continues to enjoy impunity and freedom in Pakistan. And one last point, there was a
• 12:00 - 12:30 terrorist, a British Pakistani national called Omar Sahed Shik. He was one of the three terrorists released who's in Pakistan who went on to assassinate and behead Daniel Pearl. Omar say Shik is still in a Pakistan safe house after he was acquitted of the murder of Daniel Pearl by Pakistan Supreme Court. We're talking about terrorism here. We're not talking about some both sidism, some dispute,
• 12:30 - 13:00 some Kashmir issue that can't be resolved. This is jihadist terrorism patronized and literally grown and looked after and nurtured and watered by the Pakistan army. Okay. Well, as you've been talking, uh the Indian uh Prime Minister Modi has been speaking. He says India is clear terror and talks cannot take place at the same time. Terror and trade cannot take place at the same time and water and blood can't flow at the same time. I want to tell the world community this has been our promise. If
• 13:00 - 13:30 talks take place of Pakistan, it will only be about terrorism. If we talk to Pakistan, it will only be about Pakistan occupied Kashmir. So let me bring in uh Hina Rabani Kh. So what what's your response both to what Barker has said but also to what Prime Minister Modi is saying? Okay. I think first of all I just have to say that uh you know as I appear in front of you trying to make sense of uh what happened in the last two weeks uh
• 13:30 - 14:00 uh I appear as a proud Pakistani uh and representing a proud nation which s which showed uh a lot of dignity uh in up against extreme aggression aggression violence illegal attacks into our territory within the geographical locations of Pakistan by a nuclear power a belligerent what I have always consistently called a rogue state and I
• 14:00 - 14:30 can give you very good reasons for that because as any representative and and also pier I think I need to clarify I do not give version of events I'm not a journalist um I have served the state of Pakistan and I will continue to serve I continue to serve the state of Pakistan as uh the chairperson of the foreign relations committee so I will have to align myself to facts on the ground to how things appeared how things happened not how what my narrative of that is because you've seen a lot of narrative shaping by placing two women one Muslim
• 14:30 - 15:00 to try and give the version but by trying to bring in Daniel Pearl to try and get international sympathy I for one am a Pakistani who absolutely does not seek any hyphenation with India because I generally believe that Pakistan always seeks to be hyphened with India because Pakistan wants to be at par with India We absolutely do not want to at all be hyphened with a country which feels that it can declare war. It can declare terrorist uh to exist somewhere and then go and launch strikes across
• 15:00 - 15:30 international borders without getting any you know first of all without any providing any evidence not to the country alone but even to the international community even to the United Nations and feels that because it has said so it no more operates within the realm of international law within the realm of UN charter it operates as a unilateral striker judge judge, jury, executor as it did in the case of Canada, which we know has been, you
• 15:30 - 16:00 know, India has been found, you know, with their red-handed U. Okay. But let me let me ask you a question. I mean, out of interest, let me ask you a question, though. How should India have responded to the murder of 27 of its people? You know you know why are you not asking me the question how should Pakistan have responded to the murder of its people in Jaffer Express in Balojasthan which had India's
• 16:00 - 16:30 fingerprints all over it. So this this why why don't you answer my question first and then we can we can come to other questions later we're talking about the we're talking about the catalyst for what happened in the last two weeks was the was was the terrorist attack and murder of 27 mostly Hindu men and my question is simply how how should India have responded that you would have found acceptable so I I I like your assumption that there is no equivalence between Pakistanis being murdered u when
• 16:30 - 17:00 did I assume when have I made any such assumption at all because you you seek an explanation from Pakistan and I guess the world we're talking specifically about what's happened in the last two weeks. I think it's it's not it's not well look over me. I can I don't like it. Honestly, I don't like it. I don't like it when guests start to play what about too early in a debate. I brought you guys together to debate what's happened in the last two weeks. Not the whole history of the conflicts between India and Pakistan or or any of that. I'm talking about I'm talking about what's
• 17:00 - 17:30 happened as a direct result of a terrorist attack that killed 27 mainly Hindu men. And I'm simply asking you if if you were in India's shoes, how should they have responded to that? If if you are against the way they did respond. Uh I have been in India's shoes and I think that where I'm talking factually rather than you know based on uh narrative shaping. I have been in India's shoes. I have had terrorist incidents in Pakistan where India's
• 17:30 - 18:00 fingerprints have been all around. And I would have expected to answer your question directly, I would have expected India to act like Pakistan acted when Pakistan finds evidence of India's fingerprints all over disastrous terrorist attacks inside Pakistan's territory. It is to provide evidence to the United Nations. it is to provide evidence to you know the other country and to first of all I think and that's why I would be with you Pierre because I do not want this debate at all to uh you know sink into the you know into this he
• 18:00 - 18:30 said she said I am a I represent a country and I certainly represent my person to be someone who seeks normaly peaceful coexistence and mutual prosperity for the two countries But if one country amongst the two believes that it has the unilateral strike to go outside of the realm of international law and unilaterally carry out strikes without even feeling the need to provide
• 18:30 - 19:00 any evidence um and break one line before in Bala strike and then decide that it is now trying to set a new norm. Now that norm that it was now trying to sit has been cut to pieces that whole you know uh okay well let me bring let me all right I've given you a good time to respond let me bring in Barker again I mean what is your response to to that um a statement and a question he said that Pakistan does not
• 19:00 - 19:30 seek any equivalence with India any parallels with India there can be none Pakistan just got bailed out by the IMF with a loan for $1 billion. The IMF projects India to be the fourth largest economy in the world. India would love to ignore Pakistan if we could. India seeks no hyphenation with Pakistan either. My question I have two questions for Hinraani Khar. One is does she acknowledge the Lashkari Taiba
• 19:30 - 20:00 recognized to be a terrorist group by the United States and the United Kingdom recognized to be the group responsible for the Mumbai terror attacks of 2611 in which six Americans died? Does she recognize both these groups to be terror groups? And if she does, can she explain why they have never conducted a single terror strike within Pakistan and have only conducted terror strikes in India? My second question to Hin Rubani Khar is what did she feel about the Americans coming in and taking out Osama bin Laden
• 20:00 - 20:30 from Attabad where he was given a safe space to stay. If she did not think the Americans conducted an act of war against Pakistan, then she should not think that the Indians tracking the bases of the Lashkarita and the Jes Muhammad prescribed internationally recognized terror groups should be considered something that Pakistan has to worry about. Pakistan should thank India. We helped you demolish terror groups. All right, let me get the response then. Hina, your response. Look, uh, Pier, I'm sorry. It is uh fast
• 20:30 - 21:00 uh you know becoming what I had feared it would become because uh sitting across the table within or across the zoom link with an English Indian journalist who just claimed that Karachi port had been attacked and decimated and who still probably has that tweet on targeted excuse me targeted is beyond what has details I would like to speak if possible otherwise I would like to please exit you are misrepresenting me no ma'am you don't have good answers you don't have good answers ask what
• 21:00 - 21:30 happened about the terrorist who killed Pakistanis 40 Pakistani in San Jot Express who have actually been acquitted by Indian courts. So this you know I think you should get an Indian uh you know Indian journalist against an Indian journalist because what they have displayed about their norms of you know reporting and about the dignified way and about stories has been on open display and allow me to say this Pakistan clearly India's GDP is 11 times that of Pakistan that's a reality Pakistan is going through economic
• 21:30 - 22:00 trouble that's a reality but when the war theater comes and there is an assumption of India being the net security provider for the entire hemisphere, a certain hemisphere. And when the war theater comes and we find out that one of the players in the war theater has a tendency to leave both its equipment and its people into our territory. And then even till today the Indian military forces have not accepted the fact that they had losses of Rafale and other jets. We are not here to win a
• 22:00 - 22:30 war. We did not start this battle. We have no intention of continuing this at all. We however have to be very very clear that Pakistan is a country which has broken the myth of Indian conventional supremacy in war theater in a way which is at display to the whole world. We also want to make sure and I think it has been understood and that's why the clamoring for the ceasefire as quickly as it did as soon as Pakistan started its strike. What has been
• 22:30 - 23:00 clarified is Pakistan does not only have the capacity but also the will to be able to respond in kind and therefore this adventure that India went on on wanting to rewrite the the you know the rules of the game outside of the realm of international law. I think India I would not want anyone to be bloody nosed or to be to get a bad reality check but I think what is being clarified that this whole pretense of uh you know uh dominance in the in the conventional
• 23:00 - 23:30 field you can have toys really expensive ones but you really need people to be able to get the best out of those toys and I think what we saw in the war theater is for everyone but you didn't answer the question hang on hang on please let me answer then both of you can can can ask as many questions as you wish and I will stay there to answer it. I think the other myth that has been broken is the whole question of India having the ability just because of its
• 23:30 - 24:00 economic you know progress having the ability to be able to launch strikes into another nuclear state and not expecting a response and once the response came having the complete inability it was literally a breakdown of Indian defense system not having the ability to defend. You know the strange thing about this? Listen listen, you can't just keep talking military supremacy. Look, with respect to not with respect, this thing is actually
• 24:00 - 24:30 retaliating. Look, if I could just make the bleeding obvious to you. Look, both sides are claiming total dominance. Both sides are claiming total victory. Both sides are claiming the other side is back in its box where it belongs dominance. Both sides claim claims the rights to Kashmir and so on. So we have a what I would call a very strange situation where everyone's claiming total victory over the other side but they you can't both be right. Um but are the Lashkar and Jes terrorist groups? She didn't answer the question. Does she acknowledge that the Lashka and the Jes
• 24:30 - 25:00 are terrorist groups that have freedom to function in Pakistan? Please answer the question. Let me ask questions. I will not stoop myself. Are they terrorist grouping any such question? Are they terrorist groups? Well, Hina, do you Hina, do you accept they are a terrorist group? What you want to look at? Well, hang Let me ask the question. I think you need to bring Hina, let me ask the question. Hina, do you accept that they are a terrorist group and do you accept that they have been operating with impunity in Pakistan? I mean that I think your last
• 25:00 - 25:30 comment I would absolutely reject. I think Pakistan is the country which is trying to correct the wrongs. India is a country which is trying to do the wrongs. There's a vast difference. You can narrative shape as much as we want and build these lovely stories about you know so I I okay Pier how about me saying that I believe India is a country which has weaponized terrorism to be able to get the sympathies of the world to work outside of international law and they've done it rather effectively uh and I think they've played the China containment bit quite and I we do not
• 25:30 - 26:00 seek dominance I want to clarify this Pakistan seeks genuinely seeks dialogue Pakistan genuinely seeks negotiation Pakistan genuineely ly seeks a peaceful coexistence. We But if you say that oh the security council resolutions claim Kashmir to be disputed territory but now Prime Minister Manindra Modi has said that it is an integral part of India and now Pakistan and everybody else. President Trump is he wrong when he says he wants to come in and solve this dispute. It is disputed territory and will remain disputed territory until we
• 26:00 - 26:30 able to sit down and res is okay listen okay okay hang on hang on I want to bring in two other guests to to join Mr. debate. Uh, Rambil Ranvir Alabadia uh, who is the host of the Ramir Show, Shazad Gas Shake from the Pakistan Experience podcast. Welcome to both of you. Um, look, Ram, I don't have a horse in this race. Okay, I don't think anybody outside of India and Pakistan has a horse in this race. So when I see both sides claiming victory um and this
• 26:30 - 27:00 sort of sea of disinformation that's been spread about who did what to whom and you know what planes were shot down and what weren't shot down and so on and so on. Pilots being captured where they weren't they. It's very hard to work out what the truth is. The good news is the shooting seems to have stopped and it appears to have been a lot to do with the United States offering uh some new trade arrangements to both countries to try and bring them to a ceasefire which
• 27:00 - 27:30 is which is what's happened now I mean a do you believe that and b if that is not the case why do you think the shooting has stopped okay uh firstly I would like to greet the world and present the objective truth I'm here to present proofs facts and figures Uh Donald Trump claimed that he was responsible for the ceasefire and Pakistan proceeded to break the ceasefire about an hour after it was announced. My question to the world is about this man. I hope everyone's able to see this person's face. He was found
• 27:30 - 28:00 800 m from a military base in Pakistan. That's the face that the world recognizes. This is the face that India recognizes because it's most specific to our narrative. This man is a UN designated terrorist being celebrated by the Pakistani military in the background. That's not the narrative that they give the Pakistanis. That's not the narrative that the world knows. But if you check with the UN, if you check with the US, they'll tell you that this is Abdul Ralph. India's attacks were precisionoriented, moderate, and
• 28:00 - 28:30 most importantly, they were simply a retaliation as they've always been. India's never been an aggressor in any of these situations. We expose vaccines. We export philosophy and we export engineers and leaders to the world. That's why our economy is 11 times the size of Pakistan. But the Pakistani narrative is that hey look at these people. They're trying to get the world to sympathize with them. Pierce my question is to you. You've seen the objective facts and figures. What do you feel about this whole situation? The
• 28:30 - 29:00 world only knows this person. India has a list just like people like this man. Well, okay. might live Ravit. My question for you would be that you you posted something on Instagram which I found very interesting, but you then deleted it seemingly after the backlash that it attracted. So for those for those who didn't see it, let me just remind people of what you said. Dear Pakistani brothers and sisters, I will get hate from many Indians for this. But it's important to be said just like many
• 29:00 - 29:30 Indians, I don't have hate in my heart for you. Many of us want peace as well. Whenever we meet Pakistanis, you invariably welcome us with love. But your country is not run by a government. It's run by your military and your secret service, the ISI. The average Pakistani is very different than these two bodies. The average Pakistani has dreams of peace and prosperity in their hearts. These two villains have hurt your economy since independence. They've also constantly been responsible for terrorist attacks in India. Proofs in
• 29:30 - 30:00 the next slide. Um I mean first of all, why did you delete that? They deleted it because the ceasefire was broken and Pakistan just gave us another reason to not trust the entire state. Once again, even if you try having a conversation with Pakistanis, they respond with a hey, where's the proof about the pelgam attack? My question is that have you studied what the world is saying about your country? Have you seen the economy of your own country? It's very important to understand that the Indian armed forces
• 30:00 - 30:30 simply retaliated to the action of the Pakistanis. I have no narrative other than the one that the world should know. We are combating terrorism because if India exports vaccines and engineers, Pakistan exports terrorism. We're doing a favor to all our civilians. We're protecting our civilians. But truth be told, we're protecting humanity because Pakistan has become the terror hub of the world. This is not an Indian narrative. This is the narrative that the world should know. Okay. Well, let me get let me get Shazad to respond
• 30:30 - 31:00 here. Um Shazed, your response to that. Uh thank you Pierce for inviting me. First of all for an international audience I think it's quite clear to see compared to Hinar Rabani's poise and grace Barkadat's theatrics uh I think nothing has gone down faster than a Rafael and Barkad's credibility throughout this entire process she first reported except except the F-16 that that India shot down the naval bases that were demolished. No answer. You're welcome to You're welcome to make a
• 31:00 - 31:30 million expressions while I talk, but you will get me. You make ads to see a once credible journalist getting introduced to Arnabi in a don't need certificates. Don't need certificates from members of a terrorist state. All right, let's set Reanir, you can uh bring your pictures any day that you want. I'll come to your facts and figures but let me just quote Barkadat on this. 15 years ago Susain Barkat said that a prejudiced
• 31:30 - 32:00 administrative and political system is not letting her name that the prime minister of India right now Narendra Modi is attacking Muslims. If we're going to talk about international organizations labeling somebody a terrorist Narendra Modi was labeled a threat to religious freedoms around the world and was visa was the difference by the United States of America. that you know this you're only playing to an audience. You said a Pakistani pilot was arrested and captured which turned out to be a lie. But once the YouTube dollars come in, maybe fact goes out of
• 32:00 - 32:30 the window. So let's talk about facts. Narendra Modi was involved in this in India is we capture our terrorists. We do not connect them. Don't talk over each other. Don't talk over each other. No one can hear you when you do that. But Kadat has spoken for half an hour. I get I have a right to respond. Reanir Labadia decided to interject. He's had BJP people on his podcast. I'm not talking about the state in general. I'm talking about Alabadia specifically. I've now figured out why he's called Beerbus because what he said sounds like the most drunk I've heard in my
• 32:30 - 33:00 life. This is what happens when you repeat government talking points without reading. The Bin Laden papers were not released by the DJISPR by Pakistan. They were released by the American intelligence. 470,000 papers which a book was written by Nelli Laad which clearly states that Osama bin Ladin was trying to hide from the Pakistani intelligence. What you're pointing out with us hang intelligence failure wait sorry hang on this turning into I
• 33:00 - 33:30 sorry I moderate this Shazette sorry with the best will in the world what you just said is utterly ludicrous. Osama bin Laden was found literally of living in a house for years a few hundred yards from one of Pakistan's main military bases. So if your intelligence didn't know he was there, it must be de facto the worst intelligence in the history of military intelligence. All they had to
• 33:30 - 34:00 do was get a pair of binoculars and they would have found the most wanted terrorist in the world who committed one of the worst terror attacks in history. So forgive me, but that is a ludicrous statement to try and pretend. But somehow this was American intelligence who who was sort of maybe we should maybe we should not trust assumptions here. October 7th happened that doesn't prove proof MSAD is the worst intelligence in the world. 911 happened. That doesn't prove CI is the worst intelligence. Well, it proves they
• 34:00 - 34:30 massively dropped the ball and this proves that. And I'm afraid the fact that Well, you don't dispute. You don't dispute. You don't dispute Osama bin Laden was living literally down the road from one of your biggest bases. I absolutely accept the intelligence failure, but the American intelligence itself in terms of the 470,000 declassifi was not involved in Does it not stretch credibility that nobody knew
• 34:30 - 35:00 in your biggest intelligence operation at that base? Nobody knew he was living next door. I think the context of that is that Pakistan was fighting a war on terror on multiple fronts while it was happening. I admit that dropped the ball on that one. That does not mean Pakistan supporting terrorism. What about Burka Dut who was close to calling them the No, but the reason is relevant. Shaz the reason hang on hang from The reason if you would the reason hang on one second the reason it's relevant the question is because
• 35:00 - 35:30 India's big complaint about what has happened in Pakistan in the last 20 odd maybe more years is that Pakistan has been knowingly harboring terrorists who commit terrorist actions that is that is the big complaint which India has against Pakistan and when you try and pretend it's a word for it because you can't actually believe this that somehow nobody knew knew at this massive military base and none of the intelligence people that worked there
• 35:30 - 36:00 had any idea that the most wanted man on planet Earth possibly ever was literally living in a big house at the end of their road. It stretches credibility and it's it it just I just refuse to believe it. So, we got to start with a basic acceptance of reality, right? There were certainly some people who knew and they did not blow the whistle because they were they were happy for this wanted man to remain unfound. So I think that's why India has such a tension about this
• 36:00 - 36:30 because they think well look what happened with Bin Laden. It's happening again with this group now. They're allowed to commit these terror acts with impunity and there are people in Pakistan who clearly are not bothered about that or they would do something to stop it. So hang on. Hang on. I want to give Shazad the chance. I want to give Shazad the chance to respond to that. Shazad peers either we can say uh what we believe in, what sounds credible to us or we can actually go through the
• 36:30 - 37:00 documents. Anybody watching is welcome to read the book with sites declassified American documents which clearly show that Osama was hiding from the Pakistani intelligence. I'm willing to concede the fact that the Pakistani intelligence dropped the ball. It may also be that some rogue intelligence officers may have been involved but without any concrete evidence that the state of Pakistan is implicated in harboring Osama. How can we come to that conclusion based on assumptions? It's the same as India blaming Pakistan for
• 37:00 - 37:30 Pelgam without providing let me ask that I want to ask Hina the same question. I mean I mean Hina do you not understand how ridiculous it sounds when we're expected to believe that absolutely nobody in American military in Pakistan military or intelligence had any idea that Bin Laden was living next to that base for years. Look at that time Pakistan was in active combat. Uh we were uh lit I was in the government
• 37:30 - 38:00 at that time. We were uh fighting this war at many many fronts and it wasn't only Pakistani intelligence but frankly speaking global intelligence which was in and around because at that time Afghanistan was very very active. Pier I had really expected and hoped that we could have a discussion which was about the future of this region. Okay. I had really hoped that we could have a discussion about what holds for these 1/5if of humanity which is currently hostage to an extremist sort of
• 38:00 - 38:30 mind-boggling outside of the purview of look I the theatrics are very unnerving to me. So if you can just pause your for a little bit it could help. Well well tell me how you see the future how do you see the future? We we tend to be we tend to be honest people and we tend to want to correct some of the miscommunication. Um and some of but I just I just want to say that in this time when India is
• 38:30 - 39:00 galloping towards extremist thought process and really snuggling very close to making India which was in India I respected a secular India, a democratic India and Nuvian India and Mahmun Singh India. I have sat in rooms where we have negotiated talking about making Siain a mountain of peace at the request of an Indian prime minister and Pakistan and India had reached a new type of confidence where we were able to speak to each other share intelligence and
• 39:00 - 39:30 talk about how to move forward and then comes this new government in India and even at that time I remember I was asked this question by an Indian Karan Taper that how would you recommend Prime Minister Navas Shri proceed when Prime Minister Modi who had the reputation of the Gujarat killer as chief minister which denied him entry into the United States of America. That is not a concocted narrative shaping I'm doing. That's just a fact I'm quoting which is present in history books. Now even at that time peers I do want to emphasize I
• 39:30 - 40:00 maintain that we must view prime minister Modi in his no new role as prime minister and learning from and getting confidence from prime minister Waji and him despite being BJP and whatever was associated with it became literally a seeker of peace and made all effort because that is the legacy that he was seeking. Now in my 10 years or so of looking at things very very minutely and being literally a peace monga okay
• 40:00 - 40:30 and I used to call myself an inddehatible peace fanatic uh when it came to India and Pakistan because I see that you're holding the future together and you know the revenge of geography you cannot hope to burn your neighbor and prosper endlessly look at the European Union I just want to say that I think going forward if we have the intention of seeking a legacy of peace, mutual coexistence and accepting the strengths that exist. Pakistan is a nuclear state
• 40:30 - 41:00 country which has just established our I would say conventional supremacy by way of sheer facts not narrative shaping sheer facts in the military theater there's going to be a lot of rewriting of the hegemonic role that was given to a certain country we don't want that for India India is more than welcome to continue with that hegemonic role as far think it has it is at peace to display that by attacking our civilians just because and going outside of international And here my last comment.
• 41:00 - 41:30 Please allow me this last comment and then you're willing. You know, you're more than welcome to go anywhere else. I just I just want to I just want to I just wanted to highlight one thing that there is this thing called international law. We are all signitaries of the UN charter. Article 25 obliges all countries to go by security council resolutions. Article 51 gives a country the right to retaliate in an act of war. Now if I everybody can
• 41:30 - 42:00 just answer one question. When one nuclear state decides that it will be the judge, jury, executor and decides that this particular security labs is at the is because of another country and decides to launch missile strikes nine of them killing civilians into the other country. Is that nuclear state which also has conventional you know? Okay. Well, let me displayed very well supposed to sit tight and wait for other missile strikes to come. Okay. Well, let me the theatrics. I have never been a
• 42:00 - 42:30 player of theatrics. All right, I'm going to put it to the other people with India Ranir. Um, I mean it's it's an interesting point, isn't it? India was working on very quick assumptions that the state of Pakistan that the leadership uh who are running the country were fully aware of what this group were doing and therefore were complicit in what they did in this terrorist attack and had allowed this to happen de facto. Um this has been vehemently denied by the people at the top in Pakistan and yet you know India
• 42:30 - 43:00 as as uh Hina said India then moved to kind of defcon 3 war mode very quickly based on a set of assumptions which have been denied. Would it not have been more prudent for as as she says for you know the international courts to be involved? Uh Pers, I think one needs to study the history of terrorist attacks in Pakistan, identify each of them. Right from the 2000 uh the late uh 2000s
• 43:00 - 43:30 when we had Ajmal Kasab who was a part of the Mumbai terror attacks who was caught. Pakistan denied having anything to do with the attacks and his origin points were in Pakistan. We tried solving things diplomatically at that time. Since Uri since Bala court we've always tried only retaliating whenever the aggressors. The objective view here is that every time you're asking Barka or myself a question here, we're objectively answering. But our two Pakistanis on panel are constantly deflecting because this is the nature of Pakistani narrative. You they'll never
• 43:30 - 44:00 answer the questions directly. So if you're asking me if we reacted too much, my question is how would you feel if this attack had happened in the UK pers? If 26 unarmed civilians were killed in cold blood and your intelligence found out that their roots the the camps they were trained in were in your neighboring country how would you want your country to react? Pers have grown up in an India in the '90s the 2000 to 2010s where there was constantly a terror threat and
• 44:00 - 44:30 in each one of those cases it was the Jashi Mohammed or the Lashkar Tiba or another body that was found in Pakistan. The proof is in the pudding. The proof is available for the world to see. We're a flourishing country today. We have more Muslims here who are flourishing in their careers than all of the Muslims in Pakistan. The Muslim population of India is larger than the Muslim population in Pakistan. We've constantly spoken about success stories that come out of India. We just want to go about our work. We want to keep our citizens safe. But what
• 44:30 - 45:00 I can promise you is that if unarmed civilians get targeted, we have one of the most capable militaries in the world. And the first strike operation Synindhur was simply targeted at terrorist bases. These are well-known UN designated terrorist bases. That's all that was targeted. Pakistan retaliated by attacking the LOC and harming civilians. Let me let me allow Shazad to respond and then I'm going to go to uh to Barker for the final words. So Shazad, your response.
• 45:00 - 45:30 Uh unlike Ranir, we don't live in a world of assumptions. I didn't I didn't think this was bring your child to school day. So I didn't bring any pictures. There was a 7-year-old child sleeping at his home Abas Turi who was at his home and India claims that the seven-year-old child was at the terrorist camp that we killed. There is ample evidence that India targeted civilians. In terms of Ranir's narrative, I'm not surprised that he's doing that. He's not even free to post a story and delete it. He was dragged through the Supreme Court of India for telling a sex joke. So if he's trying to bring his far right audience back, he's
• 45:30 - 46:00 welcome to he's welcome to shout these lies. Any problem. All right, let me hear this now. 2006 2006 Magalan bombings an Islamist student organization was blamed as you you're aware you're representing India around the world. Who turned out to be the terrorist in that case? Do you know? It was Abin Bharat the RSS who the ideological mentor to BJP whose people you've hosted whose people have been accused of gang raping Bilis Vanu. No, no, no. The narative
• 46:00 - 46:30 your Indian government. All right. I'm Anybody is welcome to Google all the things that I'm saying. Sjot express RSS claimed responsibility for that. Amar Da Rs has claimed responsibility for that. It's that entire narrative that only tells us anybody who's watching is welcome to Google this. Barka Dut is again trying to bring back her farright audience. Barka Tat 15 years ago was accusing the BJP of targeting Muslims in Gujarat. Did
• 46:30 - 47:00 you or did you not bark from run away from a BJ BJP mob? Did you not to escape them who were trying to kill? I think we're moving slightly off topic here but don't mind me saying listen who's who's deflecting? These are the people who said we deflect. It's a simple question. Would you run away from a BJP mob trying to kill you and did you escape through climbing a water pipe with your journalist? I am not here. I hope the word I I can get it back on topic please to to where can we get it back to where
• 47:00 - 47:30 we are with India and Pakistan only terrorism in a Muslim but how does this get bark how does this get resolved? How do we resolve this ongoing issue of Kashmir? Yeah. I'm going to ignore Chzad's infantile comments and focus on what I want to say. It doesn't matter whether you and Pakistan like or don't. Can I speak please? It doesn't matter whether you like or don't like Prime Minister
• 47:30 - 48:00 Modi. He is an elected prime minister of India in his third term. Unlike the prime ministers of Pakistan who are appointed by the army, jailed or exiled. Your country is in turmoil because you have jailed Imran Khan. Navas Sharif and Shabbash Sharif his brother who's the present prime minister is an appointee of the army before that listen to version of Pakistan's internal politics I respect you commented ma'am you commented on my country's internal
• 48:00 - 48:30 politics I am responding no I commented on the responding and I would be very let's talk about correct on that there's your defense minister you know what your defense minister said on television yes we did something I told you I'm not a journalist I don't have verified Ma'am, you're interrupting me. Ma'am, I did not interrupt you. Grant me the same civility. I did not interrupt. Please go ahead. Aviv whose picture held up said in an interview to Sky News that indeed Pakistan had used terrorism as to do the
• 48:30 - 49:00 dirty job. I guess Hina couldn't tolerate the truth. Maybe she just left. Quadra said on Sky News that Pakistan used to do the dirty job for other countries by using terrorism as an instrument of state policy. Bilawal Bhau said on the same channel indeed Pakistan has a past. Through this entire conversation, neither Pakistani has answered are the Lashkar and the Jes terror groups or not and if they are, why are they allowed to function openly
• 49:00 - 49:30 in Murk and Bahavalur where Indian action was taken against terror bases and terror bases alone. And a last point, Prime Minister Modi did try dialogue with Pakistan. He went to visit Navas Sharif in his home in Lahore. He invited Navas Sharif when he was sworn in as prime minister the first time. All of that came to not because Pakistan's entire existence seems to be to conduct a proxy war against India. India would
• 49:30 - 50:00 love to ignore Pakistan. India wants nothing Pakistan has. If Pakistan would stop inflicting terrorism on our country, we would be quite happy to never engage with them ever again. Okay, let's leave it there. I I appreciate you all joining us. He appears to have left the building. Uh, sorry that she felt the need to to leave early. Uh, but thank you three for remaining in your seats and I appreciate you being on our sensor. You don't get to respond to that. Thank you. All right. Thank you, Pierce and free Palestine. Thank you to deflect again. Anyway, thank you.
• 50:00 - 50:30 Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent. The only boss around here is me. If you enjoy our show, we ask for only one simple thing. Hit subscribe on YouTube and follow Piers Morgan Uncensored on Spotify and Apple Podcast. And in return, we will continue our mission to inform, irritate, and entertain. And we'll do it all for free. Independent, uncensored media has never been more critical, and we couldn't do it without you.