Hidden UFO Bases, Consciousness & The Classified Remote Viewing Program | Dr. Paul Smith

Summary

In this episode of Third Eye Drops with Michael Phillip, Dr. Paul Smith dives into his experiences with the top-secret, classified remote viewing program, Project Stargate, and his encounters with UFO-related intelligence targets. As a former Army intelligence officer, Smith shares insider details about the government's interest in parapsychology and the esoteric implications of consciousness transcending space and time. The discussion also touches on the program’s origins during the Cold War, significant cases, and modern perspectives on UFOs and remote viewing, all wrapped in a captivating narrative.

Highlights

• Dr. Paul Smith discussed his involvement in top-secret remote viewing programs intended to gather intelligence using psychic methods 🕵️‍♂️.
• He detailed the U.S. effort in counteracting Soviet parapsychology advancements, initiated by the renowned Project Stargate during the Cold War 🥶.
• One significant remote viewing task involved identifying details of a Soviet submarine that proved accurate upon later confirmation 🔍.
• The program explored the implications of consciousness being non-local and capable of extending beyond time and space, challenging traditional understandings of reality 🌀.
• Recent discussions incorporate remote viewing expertise with modern UFO studies, revealing continued investigation into psionic phenomena 👽.

Key Takeaways

• Remote viewing was used in military operations for gathering intelligence on foreign threats, including potential UFO bases 🛸.
• The U.S. government's interest in parapsychology began as a response to Soviet research and led to Project Stargate 📚.
• Dr. Paul Smith highlights that remote viewing suggests consciousness can transcend space and time, posing huge implications for understanding reality 🧠.
• Despite skepticism, remote viewing yielded impressive results, including predicting elements of Soviet weaponry before official confirmation 🤯.
• Modern revelations continue to emerge, bridging the past's remote viewing efforts with today's interest in UFOs and non-human intelligence 🚀.

Overview

In a riveting episode of Third Eye Drops with Michael Phillip, Dr. Paul Smith offers an insider's view into the classified realms of remote viewing—an intelligence gathering technique utilizing parapsychology. Smith, who was part of the infamous Project Stargate, shares his journey through this mysterious program that thrived during the heightened paranoia of the Cold War. The discussion weaves through various government-sanctioned programs intended to counter Soviet efforts in similar spheres, ultimately divulging astonishing successful insights garnered through psychic means.

Dr. Paul Smith passionately elaborates on the intersection of remote viewing and consciousness. From his perspective, this practice suggests that the mind possesses the ability to transcend the physical limitations of the known universe. This assertion leads to profound implications, hinting at an entirely different understanding of reality. Remote viewing's efficacy, corroborated by significant cases like the successful surveillance of a Soviet naval base, substantiates its place within intelligence operations despite ongoing skepticism and speculative critiques.

The podcast further bridges historical narratives with contemporary discussions on UFO phenomena. Dr. Smith discusses modern revelations often tied to sophisticated non-human intelligences and psionic capabilities. The underlying narrative captures the essence of a perennial quest for knowledge bridging past clandestine projects with the current era's unspoken curiosities, maintained under careful governmental scrutiny and persistent public intrigue.

Chapters

• 00:00 - 09:00: Introduction to the Classified Remote Viewing Program The chapter introduces the concept of a Classified Remote Viewing Program, where highly classified intelligence operations involve the use of parapsychology, specifically remote viewing, for spying purposes. The narrator is approached by an organization seeking volunteers for a psychic spying program. They explain the discipline of remote viewing as a method of gathering intelligence against foreign threats without initial knowledge of specific targets. The confidentiality and new level of secrecy associated with this program surpass previous intelligence undertakings the narrator has encountered.
• 09:00 - 18:00: History of Remote Viewing Program Up until this point, the remote viewing program had been focusing on standard training targets, primarily geographical locations. These targets were chosen for their concreteness and the ability to provide feedback. Occasionally, Skip, a person involved with the program, introduced unexpected targets, known as ringers, which were unusual or extraordinary. These were selected based on a strong intuition that they held significant interest. During one of these sessions, a participant drew a sketch resembling what today is recognized as a 'tic tac' shape, suggesting an early encounter or insight into phenomena that later gained recognition. Thus, this chapter delves into how unconventional targets like these highlighted the potential breadth and depth of remote viewing beyond standard geographical objectives.
• 18:00 - 27:00: Pat Price and His Legacy The chapter titled 'Pat Price and His Legacy' delves into the concept of consciousness transcending space and time, describing scenarios where the mind's capabilities can penetrate vast distances and barriers. It introduces Major Paul Smith, a key figure trained to explore these possibilities through his involvement in Project Stargate, a top-secret military program focusing on remote viewing. The narrative highlights Smith's unique experiences and the broader implications of such abilities, framing a narrative around extraordinary mental feats and their legacy.
• 27:00 - 36:00: Dr. Paul Smith's Recruitment and Early Experiences The chapter discusses Dr. Paul Smith's involvement in a project at Fort Meade, Maryland, where he engaged in remote viewing exercises. These exercises ranged from training targets to actual intelligence interests, including potential UFO bases. The project mentioned is known as project 8200, implying its secretive and possibly controversial nature. The chapter promises more context and details to be provided later in the episode.
• 36:00 - 45:00: Notable Remote Viewing Sessions In this chapter titled 'Notable Remote Viewing Sessions', the discussion focuses on remote viewing sessions, specifically highlighting those involving remote viewer Pat Price. These sessions involved viewing UFO bases and extend the existing lore surrounding these phenomena. The chapter delves into the greater implications of remote viewing, suggesting an ontology where the mind is non-local and consciousness can transcend time and space. It touches on the broader esoteric implications and the profound impact these ideas have on our understanding of reality and consciousness.
• 45:00 - 54:00: Anomalous Targets and Lunar Remote Viewing The chapter discusses the vast and potentially chaotic possibilities associated with anomalous targets and lunar remote viewing. The speaker emphasizes the importance of skillful handling of these topics and expresses a selective approach towards discussions. Dr. Paul Smith is highlighted as an outstanding representative for these ideas, noting his past involvement in Fort Meade's remote viewing program.
• 54:00 - 63:00: Discussion on Current Psionics and Emerging Revelations The chapter discusses current developments in the field of psionics, with a focus on remote viewing. It highlights the career of an individual who holds a PhD in philosophy from UT Austin and who is actively engaged in training and teaching remote viewing skills. This person is also the author of 'Reading the Enemy's Mind' and 'The Essential Guide to Remote Viewing.' The narrative suggests that he is credible, approachable, and intellectually impressive. Links related to him and 'Third Eye Drops' are mentioned as available in the description.

Hidden UFO Bases, Consciousness & The Classified Remote Viewing Program | Dr. Paul Smith Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 You know, I had been read on to top secret, special compartmental intelligence, gamma, delta, you know, all of these different levels of of intelligence access. And this readon was more strict than anything I'd done before. Then Tom says, "What we do is we collect intelligence against foreign threats using a parasychology discipline known as remote viewing. Uh, basically we want to invite you to volunteer to become a psychic spy." So, we didn't know what the target was. Had no idea. didn't realize it was had anything to do
• 00:30 - 01:00 with ETSs or whatever. Up to that point, we've been working standard training targets which were all geographical locations or or similar, right? Something was concrete we had feedback on. Skip would throw in these ringers every now and again. Sometimes it's something totally out of the ordinary, but he'd usually pick something that he felt like he had pretty good reason to think there would be some there there, right? And these bases were were one of them. So, he ran us on this. And what was interesting was I drew a sketch of what you would look at today and say that's a tic tac. Yeah. Based off of the
• 01:00 - 01:30 Nimmits encounter looked just like a tic tac. What if your mind could transcend the boundaries of space and time? What if with the right training it could penetrate mountains, cross oceans, even make contact with hidden intelligences? Well, Major Paul Smith is one of the few individuals ever to officially be trained really in all of the above. Paul was part of the fabled project Stargate. He served in the Army's top secret remote viewing program
• 01:30 - 02:00 at Fort me in Maryland, remote viewing everything from mundane training targets to actual points of intelligence interest and yes, potentially at least UFO bases as part of the infamous project 8200. And if that sounds completely uh out there, dulu beyond belief, believe me, I get it. But much more context to come in the episode itself. And by the way, if your wonder whiskers were perked up by the tale from
• 02:00 - 02:30 a few weeks back of remote viewer Pat Price remote viewing the UFO bases, this is indeed an extension of that very same lore. But what makes all this so much more compelling for me isn't just what Paul and his colleagues saw. It's what it implies about reality and consciousness itself. remote viewing points to an ontology where mind is non-local, where time and space can be transcended by consciousness. And my god, the esoteric implications and
• 02:30 - 03:00 possibilities associated with that are just massive and potentially pretty uh skitso if we don't deal with them skillfully. And on that note, when it comes to topics like this, as interested in them as I am, I'm pretty selective about who I have in the mind meld to discuss them. And Dr. Paul Smith is really one of the best possible representatives, ambassadors on the planet for these ideas. Not only was he, like I said, part of Fort Me's remote
• 03:00 - 03:30 viewing contingent, he went on to earn a PhD in philosophy at UT Austin, and he's never stopped training in teaching his remote viewing capacities. He's also the author of Reading the Enemy's Mind and The Essential Guide to Remote Viewing. I also just find him incredibly believable and down to earth and overall brilliant. Uh but before I gush forth further, all of the links that you will need for both Paul and Third Eye Drops are in the description. And before I forget, if
• 03:30 - 04:00 you'd be so kind, do uh stimulate the algorithm with all the buttons. It is greatly greatly appreciated. Do subscribe to Third Ey Drops wherever you listen to audio podcast. We've got hundreds of audio only episodes in our back catalog. that I suspect you will enjoy. We've also got a growing catalog of YouTube membersonly/patreon content. So, we would love it if you initiated yourself over at patreon.com/ thirdeyrops or clicked your
• 04:00 - 04:30 way on over to the membersonly tab and sign up. Also, before I forget, both Paul and myself will be at contact in the desert this year at the end of this month, end of May. not a sponsor, but if you want to join us, you can get 10% off at the link in the description. And with that, my friends, let's meld minds with Paul Smith. Paul, it is really, really an honor to have you on the show. I've been, you know, digging into the history of a lot of what you were involved in, uh, your stories in general. Like I
• 04:30 - 05:00 mentioned before we started recording, I'm just so interested in the philosophy of consciousness, which I know is a central interest of yours, too. So, man, an embarrassment of riches in this conversation. I I hope I don't embarrass you. You will. And that's another thing I love about you. You're incredibly humble, I think, too. And, you know, with this topic, obviously, comes a, you know, a certain amount of understandable skepticism from a segment of the
• 05:00 - 05:30 population. And I think you're just such a great ambassador for this because you seem so down to earth and you have such uh like I I I can tell another thing I love about you is that you're you sort of shrug off flattery well. Um but really truly like you you've got this really rich background that's just kind of soaked in credentials from both the army and from your uh education. So so I think you're just an amazing ambassador for this conversation. Well, I appreciate that and I have to say I am
• 05:30 - 06:00 very proud of my humility. So, ah, it's like a paradox right there or paradox off the bat. Um, but yeah, let's let's start with, you know, the background. I know you've told these stories many times, but I feel like it's it's important um for contextualization, but so this remote this remote viewing program starts in the early '7s um during the Cold War, far before the army's direct involvement in in your
• 06:00 - 06:30 role, eventual role, but you want to give a little background on why this started and how the intelligence agencies got interested in remote viewing and why they thought this was um an important avenue to pursue. Sure. So the earliest real mention I've seen any research into this in the at the government or intelligence community level was in the 60s. It was part of the infamous MK Ultra project which was far more than just mind control. MK Ultra
• 06:30 - 07:00 involved a number of different things and they did some basically uh well back then it was book and and journal research into parasychology with some thought to see if it might apply to to the CIA mission. Um, but nothing went very far until the very late 60s, early 70s when the CIA really started looking into what kind of an effort the Russians were doing, the
• 07:00 - 07:30 Soviets, but you know, Russians and Soviets are pretty isom isomeorphic when you look at it, right? Um and uh and they were spending literally hundreds of millions of dollars on what we would consider to be paranormal or fringe kind of research. And um the CIA knew that the that the Soviets wouldn't just throw money at something if there hadn't been some hope or expectation that it might pay off.
• 07:30 - 08:00 Um, and the CIA, you know, researched it and ended up with a, um, actually it wasn't just the CIA, uh, FTD, foreign technology division in the Air Force at Wright Patterson. There was an analyst there called Dale Graph who was researching this stuff. He came up with a very thick book documenting all of the Warsaw packed research into all of this stuff. Anyway, um so they were very worried about what
• 08:00 - 08:30 the heck was going on with the with the Soviets. Um they didn't necessarily, when I say they, the CIA didn't necessarily believe there's anything to parasychology or the paranormal. Uh but the Russians apparently did and so they were concerned about that. In one of the videos um I did on this topic, you know, there's there's some amazing document I found that's this long report about all of the perceived uh potential threats
• 08:30 - 09:00 from the Soviets and it you know it's it's everything from like um you know influencing uh thoughts uh pe like psychic peeping on documents potential even uh like psychic assassinations and and you know as again if you're not initiated into the history of this And in my opinion, the reality of the stuff, as outlandish as all of that sounds, this caused like real concern, especially because, as you pointed out, we had basically uh no answer to this um
• 09:00 - 09:30 into these programs that apparently the Russians had going for for years at this point. Right. That's true. Uh I'm wondering if the what you mentioned, was it a document or was it an article? No, I think this was like a DIA report or I not I'm not certain if it was DIA, but yeah, it was it was an official uh Okay, good. That was probably one of one of the ones or the one that Dale Graph worked on. U I know most folks listening in won't know who Dale Graph was, but um
• 09:30 - 10:00 I do want to say that he was a one of the least known most important figures in the Stargate program. Uh he he was associated with the program longer than anybody else, 18 years. and mostly behind the scenes, but he he played a very important role. Yeah, I'm guessing it was his and he become Well, I guess from what you're saying, he stays involved, but my my knowledge was his involvement later uh because because he's he's involved in the Army program, right? No. Um he he actually was uh the
• 10:00 - 10:30 Defense Intelligence Agency. So Dale started off in 19 roughly around 1975 when he actually saved the remote viewing program from going under. Um at that time the so I guess there's a little more groundwork to lay here. Yeah. So in uh 1972 a physicist at Stanford Research Institute um and I won't go into all the all the details here but did an experiment with
• 10:30 - 11:00 the person who actually uh discovered invented whatever you want to call it remote viewing and named remote viewing and that guy was named was Ingo Swan. Yes, Inga was a New York City artist. Uh, but he was involved in a lot of parasychology research with uh some of the credible institutions there and Hal and he how put off and he got together in Menllo Park at SRRI and they did an experiment that kind of blew the doors off of all of this.
• 11:00 - 11:30 Um, and the CIA heard about it and they came and knocked on Hal's door and uh, he had circulated this informal kind of pilot study document around to some of his colleagues and it had ended up on what was uh, laughingly known as the weird desk at the CIA. And uh, and so they went and said, "We've been looking for you." And how says, "Why me?" He said, "Well, you have clearances. um you're a legitimate scientist and
• 11:30 - 12:00 you're looking into this kind of stuff that the Russians have been looking into for years and uh we hope that maybe you can help us get a handle on this. Yeah. And so the CIA gave them 50,000 bucks and they did some research and continue to validate the phenomenon and and went on from there. But in in 1975, the CIA got its its self caught with its hand in the cookie jar, so to speak. Um, and uh
• 12:00 - 12:30 they were forced to get rid of anything that was illegal, immoral, or weird. And remote viewing was not illegal, nor was it immoral, but it certainly was weird. And so they they canled the program. And it was Dale Graph who stepped in to save it. He convinced the Air Force that they should fund it uh from that point. and uh he kept it going until 1979 and he got crosswise with the chief of staff of the Air Force, a guy named Lou Allen who didn't like having remote viewing uh one
• 12:30 - 13:00 uping him all the time. And so uh Dale ultimately went on to DIA to the Defense Intelligence Agency and that's where he was until he retired. At the last part of his career, he was actually the branch chief, commander, program director. There's all kinds of different names for him of the actual physical Stargate program. Okay. Wow. Yeah. So, so this experiment that Ingo did in some ways was sort of the beginnings of
• 13:00 - 13:30 remote viewing on a more local level because part of this experiment was that so, so it was both like PK and remote viewing in some sense because he the experiment was could Ingo remotely influence this like highly shielded uh chip, right? this this uh some kind of chip was, you know, quantum shielded and, you know, was supposed to not be able to be perturbed whatsoever. And he was able to um and I don't know how they
• 13:30 - 14:00 measured this, but he was somehow able to perturb uh this this chip and the signals inside of this shielded space multiple times. And one of the ways he said that he did that from my memory is that he visualized it. Like he visualized this chip. So you sort of have the beginning of um you know remote viewing in that he was somehow psychically viewing this thing and also seeing if he could influence it with with uh some some kind of psychokinesis ability. And apparently the results of
• 14:00 - 14:30 this were so successful that as you said the CIA took notice and they were like okay we're clearly way behind the Russians. We we clearly need to know more about this. what is the operational possibilities here with with these kinds of techniques and then um SRRI Hal put off you know sidebar Hal is one of the most interesting people to me like cuz just talk about somebody who's been involved in um some of the most interesting sort of XFiles stuff for so
• 14:30 - 15:00 many years like he's he's the man or he's he's one of the very the very few um and I'm curious to ask you more about him if if you have any if you've had any um relationship with him in any way. Oh yeah. Yeah. U first off, I want to I want to go on up on a sidebar here just for a second. Um I've I've heard uh you interview and I forget who which one of my colleagues it was. Who did you interview most recently? Um
• 15:00 - 15:30 um there's been a number of people, but uh our mutual friend Hakee was on the show. Yeah, that was the one I remember. Hakee. Yeah. And what impressed me about you is that you've done your homework. You already have a lot of background knowledge on this which makes you an even better interviewer in this subject matter. So, uh I just want to say that's pretty cool and you've just demonstrated it again. So, yeah. So um well first of all the experiment yeah it was a quark detector and it had had to be shielded
• 15:30 - 16:00 multiple different ways in order to guarantee that no environmental interference would occur to it so that if anything manifest itself it had to have been a court because they eliminated all the other possibilities. Right? So um made it very hard to do and uh none of that had been published. There was no diagram of this machine out on the on the web. Of course, the web didn't exist back then, but um and in how it there was a chart recorder that
• 16:00 - 16:30 actually reported on what was happening internally to this device. And so how they determined that ingo was actually influencing it was what that chart recorder did. Okay. And it did all kinds of weird things that it didn't do before or after, but it did it it did it concurrently with whenever Ingo was was directing some kind of attention at it. Um, and the remote viewing part was that he said, "I don't even know what to do with this unless I know what it's like inside. So, here, let me point out." And
• 16:30 - 17:00 he proceeded to actually sketch a rudimentary sketch of of what was what the internals of this machine was like. And it it uh it really impressed Putoff and I think kind of freaked out the posttock who was in charge of this machine. And uh anyway, and then it became history from then when the CIA came in. But Putoff started off life as a naval well he got his MS in electrical engineering from Florida I want to say Florida state I think and went in the
• 17:00 - 17:30 Navy he was a naval ROC officer and spent three years actually at at NSA in the naval contingent there so he had already had TSSCI compartmented access to all kinds of things which was one of the reasons probably he decided he didn't want to make a life as a naval intelligence officer or even a SIG signals intelligence guy. So he went and got his PhD at Stanford. Yeah. And got hired by
• 17:30 - 18:00 SRRI partly Stanford Research Institute partly I think because he did have those clearances. Yeah. And so uh since that time he's had his finger in a lot of very interesting pots. He's got um he's widely known in the free energy world for having investigated 0 point energy, the 0 point field and all that extensively. Um he is very much into the UAP world right now, the UFO UAP world.
• 18:00 - 18:30 Um and I'm not and not just as a wannabe. He actually regularly briefs Congress, regularly briefs people in the Pentagon. Um he's been part of a number of these official but subrosa behind the scenes. Yeah. Uh like ATIP and these he's always been he's been an adviser or a member of these groups. Put off is probably one of the most legitimate UAP UFO researchers out there and he's recognized both an industry and by the government as being one an expert in
• 18:30 - 19:00 that field. Yeah. in addition to having essentially with Ingo's help and Russell target of course as well created created the remote viewing program. So yeah. Yeah. I I mean we I don't want to make this that you know the hell put off hour but yeah I mean his his connections you know reaching across what I think are the two two of the most interesting topics that are that that seem to be sort of burgeoning in the zeitgeist right now because maybe it's just from where I'm sitting but I feel like
• 19:00 - 19:30 there's a huge reemergence of this interest in sigh remote viewing all of this stuff as well as of course the the UFO UAP phenomenon and then more recently there's been this bridging of those two topics with people like Jake Barber coming forward and talking about like psionic assets and um you know we we can table that for now but I do want to return to that because to in the interest of having some kind of coherent narrative for for people that don't know these stories um so so we're in the 70s there there you know in the wake of this
• 19:30 - 20:00 ingo swan experiment there is some kind of um you know project anointed by the CIA Russell Tar Halputoff are these two physicists at SRRI who are in charge of this new program to investigate the e the efficacy of ESP for a number of things. Eventually, because of Ingo Swan, remote viewing is shown to be something that may be operationally useful, right? Like maybe we can spy on the Russians, maybe we can
• 20:00 - 20:30 get intelligence this way. Um, so yeah, please pick it up. Pick it up from there. I I know you know this stuff, so I figured I could just Okay. We're still talking historically. Is that it? Yes. Okay. Okay, good. I just had to make sure where where we were re-entering the account. Okay, good. Um, yeah. So, so the CIA gave him this contract and then a three years later the CIA backed out and the Air Force took over the funding. In 1977, the Army started looking at
• 20:30 - 21:00 setting up their own program. And in 79, this program actually went operational. and some of the folks associated with it. First of all, I also want to give credit to uh to Fred H. Holmes, Skip Atwater. We call him Skip these days. Skip Atwater, who as a second lieutenant was directly tasked by the the chief intelligence officer in the army, uh General Thompson, to uh create a remote
• 21:00 - 21:30 viewing program literally. And so now he had Skip of course was working with a major. they needed to give him some horsepower. So, so he was working with a major, but Skip was the one who who figured this stuff out to start. And once the program went live, there were some notable folks involved. One was Joe McMmon Eagle. Yeah. Who a lot of pe Well, almost everybody who knows about remote viewing probably knows about Joe. Um, and Mel Riley was another one who was involved and other folks who are lesser
• 21:30 - 22:00 known because they didn't go public or whatever. But um they got the program going um in 79. Uh so so Joe, he gets his dates all mixed up, but Joe uh got into the program actually in late 78, roughly around December of 78, and then was read on, became part of the program in 79, early 79. Um he's the one that did the famous uh typhoon submarine
• 22:00 - 22:30 Yeah. session. I don't know if you want me to go into detail about that but yeah. Yeah. And for sure. Yeah. I think that is a really interesting story because if you know some you know one of the common you know choruses of skeptics is oh this didn't produce anything real. This doesn't Yeah. It's it's not reliable. Name name one major result. And this is a major major result. Yeah. Um, and and I want to address the ma major result and not having had any
• 22:30 - 23:00 success or whatever. I'll get to that back in a second. But what happened was there was this massive building right on the white sea in in a harbor in let me think of I remember the name of the I think it's uh anyway Russian port city that had a big naval yard and they had this building there. Um, and the US couldn't find out what was going on inside this building. Um, there was some suspicion of some kind of ship building thing. In fact, one of the working hypotheses was
• 23:00 - 23:30 that it was the first Soviet uh, fleetsized aircraft carrier, you know, to compete with our aircraft carriers because the building was big enough to put one and a half of our carriers end to end inside of it. Was massive. I mean, we're talking huge. And um, but they couldn't get inside to find out what it was. And so ultimately there was a guy in the National Security Council, a a Navy captain uh who knew about the remote viewing program. He'd been read on to it. And so
• 23:30 - 24:00 he brought this tasking down uh to the folks who managed the the viewers and said, "So we got this problem. We got this building. We don't know what's going on inside of it. See if your remote viewers can do something about it." and uh Joe and Hartley Trant who's another viewer. He unfortunately um Hartley passed away in 1983 just before I joined the program but at the time Hartley did some good stuff too. Joe gets all the credit but Hartley contributed to this so I ought to mention his name as well. Um the two of them worked on this and produced an
• 24:00 - 24:30 amazing uh account which actually was taken as not serious by the National Security Council. Uh Joe reported this uh and yeah, Joe was responsible for the big part of this. He said he reported this massive submarine and the way he described it made it bigger than anything that had ever been any submarine ever been launched before. And the one very specific detail is interesting. He said the the the missile tubes for the ICBMs
• 24:30 - 25:00 that these boomer subs carry. says uh the missile tubes are in front of the superructure of the submarine and instead of behind as they are with American boats and and everybody else and most Soviets as well. Um which was a bit of a a heresy as far as naval architecture was concerned because the idea is if you have the missile tubes behind the superructure if if it you spring a leak it's not as likely to flood or something. I don't you know I'm not an
• 25:00 - 25:30 expert at this stuff but something like that. and he said they're in front of the of the superructure on the front end of the boat and um and it was just rejected. In fact, uh Robert Gates was a staffer on the uh on the NSC at the time and he he was basically the one who rejected this. Now Gates become significant because ultimately he's the CIA director many years down the road and he's the one that claimed that nothing ever came anything useful ever
• 25:30 - 26:00 came out of remote viewing program which I'll get back to that too in a minute. So they rejected what Joe said. Well, ironically 10 months after these remote viewing sessions were done, they floated out the Typhoon, which was the largest sub ever built. Still is the largest sub ever built. And guess where the missile tubes were right in front of the superructure just as Joe had described it. And u and so here's
• 26:00 - 26:30 the argument. Remote viewing didn't do any good at all here. And it didn't because they didn't believe it. Right. Right. And in fact, 10 months in advance, the remote viewers told the the NSC what was in there and they just rejected that information because it didn't match their op priori, their preconceived Yeah. notions of what it what it should be, you know. Yeah. So I got to hear I got to hear that story from Joe because
• 26:30 - 27:00 I did a Monroe Institute retreat and he he came out and you know surprised us one night and regailed us with all these stories and yeah there's so many interesting details about that story because um you know assu assuming it's not a uh he he's not he's not adding color to the story. I mean there's all these details, right? Like you pointed out well with Joe you can't necessarily assume that right? Yeah. Um but you know the p there's pictures there's you know and it's so it's more than just oh
• 27:00 - 27:30 there's a naval yard it's logical you could assume there was a a submarine or something. There were reasons why it it it shouldn't have been like it was some distance from the water itself. So it led like you said that the NSC was very skeptical because there were all of these facets of the story that made them believe no this can't be true. It's too big. It wouldn't be built like that. It's too far away from the shore. It can't be. It can't be what he's saying. And and I think according to Joe too, he told them like to the day almost like
• 27:30 - 28:00 it's going to be launched right around this day. He gave them actually a time frame. Um and I don't know if he said I I well I've got it actually. Can I do a little promotion here just for a second? So, my book uh the essential guide to remote viewing, I detail this entire project in this book uh and uh including photos and including the sketches that he produced and and the some of the verbal content and all that stuff.
• 28:00 - 28:30 Awesome. And he said uh if if I remember correctly, he said uh by a certain date in the future, which was essentially 10 months out from when they were doing this project, uh I get the impression of this massive submarine alongside a pier, you know, with hoses and stuff going to it. And they have satellite photos from that period that are exactly exactly at the time what Joe had predicted. So he didn't exactly give them a date, but he did give them a time
• 28:30 - 29:00 hack that that really matched what happened. Yeah. Yeah. So So that's one great example. Um and and I know we kind of have to go back in time here to to reintroduce Pat Price and some of his incredible hits, but he's so central to a lot of this lore, too. And then there's all these juicy details, you know, surrounding his mysterious demise. Um, I did a video a few weeks back actually where I covered a lot of his story, including his his strange death. Well, I can say uh
• 29:00 - 29:30 um let me say a little bit. So, so Pat actually just wandered in off the street at at SRRI. Yeah. They were doing their research and he'd got wind of it. Uh and I and I'm a little reluctant to raise this connection, but I really should. Pat was a Scientologist. Yes. And at the time so was Hal and so was Ingo and so was Ed May who was uh was also a scientist there. Right. And can we zoom out on the history of this a little bit because today Scientology has certain
• 29:30 - 30:00 connotations and I I I just don't know because I don't know the history of it what it was like then when it was newer on the scene. I I assume Elron Huard was still alive whether I don't know if that makes it better. Yeah, he was. In fact, I think he was out on their sequest or whatever they called their ship. I think if I remember, he was pretty much of a uh kind of a hermit of sorts, right? The he he dealt with the public uh and the rest of Scientology kind of through
• 30:00 - 30:30 lieutenants that were working with him, right? Um but yeah, so this would have been well it was uh Price showed up in 73 and Scientology was fairly new and it was certainly as controversial or maybe more so back then. Okay. Um but but the I don't know if Scientology played a role here, but I'm wondering if that's maybe how Price heard about it is through Scientology circles. Interesting. cuz there was it was kind
• 30:30 - 31:00 of an an open secret that put off is was working and Swan was working in this stuff. Um so anyway, he shows up and he he had a lot of wore a different lot of lot of different hats over time. Um oh here's a little I'm sidebar sorry sidebar squirrel. So I live in Utah now. I used to used to live in Austin. Before that, I was in the army. Uh, and we enjoyed Austin, but we moved here to Utah. And I've gotten a better grasp of the history. Pat Price actually was born
• 31:00 - 31:30 in Salt Lake. Interesting. Yeah. And Ingo Swan, uh, his formative years were in Tilla, outside of Salt Lake. So, there's a Utah connection here. I'm not sure exactly what it means, but I I just ended up here, you know. So, so that was fun. Um, sorry this probably meaningless and not of particular use, but I find it interesting. So, um, Price comes in. He'd been a police commissioner. Yeah. For the city of Burbank. Yes. He'd been
• 31:30 - 32:00 a lot of other things as well. Um, but as he was doing police work and such, he developed this as Steven Schwarz uh, no, was it Schwarz? Might have been Martella Truz. calls it the blue sense, which you know is a kind of this cop's sense that something's not going right or or where to go to solve the crime, whatever kind of stuff like that. And Price seemed to have that in space. I mean, he was he was remarkable in some of the stuff he did. Now, he was wrong on some cases,
• 32:00 - 32:30 too. Everybody's wrong. And people don't understand that remote viewing is not 100% no matter how good you are as a remote viewer. Price got some stuff wrong, but when he got it right, it was just amazing what he came up with. And um you know, I don't know if you want any stories about that, but but uh when he did the research, actual just laboratory style research for SRRI, he got some just direct hits. I mean uh he's been they've been criticized over
• 32:30 - 33:00 the years. That's a whole another topic. Let's not go into that. But uh but the criticisms uh I did some extensive during my for my dissertation I did some extensive research into those criticisms and I find they don't hold water. Interesting. They were essentially skeptics trying to justify how these things could have been done other than by ESP and the criticisms just don't get there if you really know what the background is to them. Yeah. Unless you're assuming some
• 33:00 - 33:30 widespread willful cheating and and and you probably with all the deep research you've done probably know how the experiments were structured so this wouldn't be possible and you know unless the details of the even the story as an exoteric onlooker you know something like his semi palentinsk drawings or his um his viewing of the NSA facility like these are two of Pat Price's most famous um hits that have been told widely in podcasts and documentaries like Third
• 33:30 - 34:00 Eye Spies, uh, Annie Jacobson's book, Phenomena, etc. And even just, you know, seeing that, it's just confounding. Like, it it's it's I don't understand how you could construe it as anything other than than what it is, you know? Like, I mean, unless somebody handed um uh Pat Price a drawing and said, "Here, copy this drawing." which apparently wasn't verified by satellites until much later, you know, and I'll flash these drawings
• 34:00 - 34:30 up here so people know what I'm talking about. Like, this isn't this is clear. It's It's not like, oh, yeah, I guess it kind of looks like that. I mean, it's it's basically a blueprint the guy drew of the place. Yeah. I I mean, it's incredible. And of course, other folks have been able to do that as well. Joe McM's been able to do it. Um, I mean, I've been able to do it. My some of my students have been able to do it. A number of the CRVers, the controlled remote viewers at at Fortme
• 34:30 - 35:00 that that either I helped train or or trained alongside me have been able to do it. Um, but Price was so consistent and he was, you know, whatever this term means, he was untrained. He was kind of a natural off the street remote viewer from everything I've been able to tell. Um, he just did some amazing amazing remote viewing that has certainly never been topped. It may have been equal, but it's never been topped in in the what
• 35:00 - 35:30 50ish years. Wow. I think it's been more than 50 years, hasn't it? Am I counting correctly? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's incredible. So, so one of the, you know, the juiciest aspects of his story is because of his prowess, he's essentially poached by the CIA, right? So, where he he enters into like a direct um relationship with the CIA, he has a CIA handler, he's being tasked by the CIA directly now. And what's interesting is at least according to I think I think
• 35:30 - 36:00 this is both in Third Eye Spies and Phenomena again this Annie Jacobson book apparently his files with whatever he was doing at the CIA to this day remain classified which is sort of an interesting um you know point of intrigue that we're we're not really clear on what he was doing for this span of a couple years where he was working directly with them and I don't know about the files part but Uh but I certainly can understand why they would
• 36:00 - 36:30 be because I mean he was dealing with targets and uh and associated the confir confirmatory stuff would have been uh how you want to say this would have been involved sources and methods that probably are still sensitive today. Wow. Right. So so I could imagine now there's probably if it hasn't been there's probably uh material in there that could be declassified if someone knew how to ask for it. Okay. So that's part of the problem with a Freedom of Information Act thing. You have to know how to ask.
• 36:30 - 37:00 In other words, uh if it's it's like a search on the web, you know, if you don't get your search string right, you may be close but not close enough for it to recognize what you want. Yeah. And with Foy, it's kind of like that too. You got to tell them what it is you want and be close enough that they can actually find it. Do you think you could get something record? Say again. Do you think you could get something if you tried? Well, I said, I don't know what I'm looking for as far as what he did at the CIA. Uh, I mean, you could put out a kind of a blanket request, uh, everything having to do with Pat Price
• 37:00 - 37:30 and the CIA files and maybe you'd get something. Um, I I don't know. Yeah, it's it's interesting. So, yeah. Yeah. So, um, yeah, but but anyway, it's a I don't know what uh what conversation you had about Pat Price's death. Um well I it's mostly so I mostly covered uh the chapter in that and I know there's mixed feelings it seems like from people who were um inside the programs on this
• 37:30 - 38:00 Annie Jacobson book but you know for me as just again somebody who doesn't know all the ins and outs it was a great read but um you know her summary of it essentially is that he at this point in time has left SRRI he's working for the CIA he actually meets up with Hal and Russell Tar in Las Vegas they're having dinner together. Um, he feels ill, goes up to his room at the Stardust Hotel. They don't hear from him for a while. They go up and check on him and he's in his bed in cardiac arrest. So, they call
• 38:00 - 38:30 911. Uh, ambulance comes to get him. Kit Green, the um I guess he's like the contract monitor at this point, right? Yeah. Of course, he was an MD and uh and and such. So, uh, but yeah. So, yeah, there's this character we haven't introduced, at least in this conversation, named Kit Green. He's an MD, as Paul says, um, who's sort of the, um, oversight for for this remote
• 38:30 - 39:00 viewing project. He personally flies out when he hears about, um, what happened to Pat Price and shows up at the hospital. Body isn't there. And it's like this, he's just confused, you know, like according to protocol, his body should be here. There should have been an autopsy done. what the hell's going on? And um according to whoever he talks to, he passed away of a heart attack. So there was no need for something like that. But you know, there are all these reasons to believe that maybe it wasn't
• 39:00 - 39:30 natural causes. Like some people suspect the CIA, some people suspect the Russians, some people suspect the Scientologists. Um, yeah. So, there's there's this there's all this intrigue around his death and and there's even just mentioned the body did eventually show up. I don't remember if you said that. Yeah. I I don't know if I know that story. What how did the Yeah. So, so it just mysteriously appeared. When I say mysteriously appeared, it was there one time and then it or it wasn't there and then it was. Okay. And nobody
• 39:30 - 40:00 saw the delivery, right? Um the body was picked up by an ambulance uh and then it didn't show up where it was supposed to for 24 hours. And about 24 hours later, according to the accounts, one of whom is is Hal. I've talked to Hal about this a fair amount. Um it it then was there and uh and that's never been explained that missing time. It's an interesting different kind of missing time, right? Yeah. Yeah. So,
• 40:00 - 40:30 um, yeah, and there's that a lot of people believe the CIA did it, but that makes no sense. None whatsoever because, uh, Price was actually working for them. They had all kinds of strings on him. They had no need to take him out. But, uh, and this I know from my own uh, first person um, two weeks before he died, he told his daughter, let me explain that. So, my book, Reading the Enemy's Mind, which is
• 40:30 - 41:00 an account of the remote viewing program, came out in 2005. And just a couple weeks after it came out, I get a phone call from Pat Price's daughter saying, "Oh, I'm really glad that you, you know, talked about my dad and blah blah blah and stuff." And we started talking about his death. And she said, "Two weeks before he died, he told me if anything happens to me, it was the KGB that did it." Wow. And if you think about it, they're the ones with the most motivation to take him
• 41:00 - 41:30 out. Sure. Because the only real defense against a remote viewer is to eliminate them. There's never been any documented way of blocking remote viewers from accessing a target. You get people who make all kinds of claims, but that happens in the remote viewing world. You hear all kinds of claims. Yeah. And if you track them down, they find you find out there's no substance to them. And that's one of them. There's never been uh that that you can block it. There's never been any and and SRRI researched this. They even have a a paper out on
• 41:30 - 42:00 this. He's claiming they were not able to find any kind of a blocking mechanism. And so that was one of the reasons why uh Stargate, the Stargate program was so classified. The highest classification in the program, they had four different levels. The highest level was the names, the locations of the remote viewers. because they were trying to protect them from being neutralized by any any uh you know enemy or or or opponent you know
• 42:00 - 42:30 out there that didn't want to be remote viewed and so the the KGB had the most motivation for getting rid of Pat Bryce of anybody and on top of that the moits they had uh techniques where they had poisons that would mimic heart attacks and very hard to detect and so my suspicion Um I think maybe Hal shares this is that um they're the ones who they poisoned him. He died um and then they spirited the body away
• 42:30 - 43:00 for 24 hours so that any residual signature of that chemical would have dissipated. So there would be no way that it could be determined not to have been an accident. Yeah, I mean that certainly sounds plausible. It everything you're saying makes a lot of sense. One of the more out there conjectures I've heard, and I don't even know if the timing lines up with this because I'm not historical enough on when he made these viewings, but one of the more out there conjectures is that somehow he got too close to something
• 43:00 - 43:30 by, you know, this famous case where he apparently remote viewed the four uh alien bases or uh you know, apparent alien bases. Does that timing even potentially line up to your knowledge? Well, the alien bases were before he worked for the CIA. Um, I want to say it might have been late 73. I don't know how I would have a better grasp of that actually. So, I have copies of Price's stuff, so
• 43:30 - 44:00 maybe there's a date in there. I don't remember. Interesting. Interesting. Um, Skip Outwater published a book called Project 8200 in which he documents um a lot of the Pat Price material. If folks want to get that, they may be able to find that themselves. But, uh, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I'm actually making a note here. Cool. Yeah. To look into later. And for for anybody that doesn't know, you you also, unbeknownst to you, are tasked with
• 44:00 - 44:30 viewing one of these same apparent alien bases as as Pat Rice, but we'll we'll get to that eventually. But um, yeah. So, I think we've I think we've done a a general lap around those SRR(I) years. Now, we started going into the Army program already. So, I feel like we might as well get into your recruiting and your experience because you you had no idea this existed. You were and what what were you doing when you when you got recruited? So, I had uh just gotten back from three years in Germany as a
• 44:30 - 45:00 tactical and strategic intelligence officer for a special forces unit over there. I was not special forces, but I did get to hang out with them and that was pretty fun. Um, I'd gone through the Army Officer Advance course, which is uh 6 months, a six-monthlong course in Arizona, and had just been assigned to Fort me working for an army human intelligence uh organization called Army Ops Group uh as a M East desk analyst. Um I was uh I was a M East specialist at
• 45:00 - 45:30 the time. I I was uh I was somewhat competent in both Hebrew and Arabic and I was interested in the Middle East and done uh a lot of things associated with it. And so I'd got hired to do this job, you know, hired in the army you get assigned, I guess. You're always hired unless they get rid of you. Um and uh well, there's a whole interesting story here that I won't go into. takes time too. But
• 45:30 - 46:00 um I uh I hadn't realized it of course, but I had moved in next door to Skip Atwater across the street from Tom McNair, who is a remote viewer in training. And they were both wore civilian clothes even though their door said Captain McNair and Captain Atwater. And Tom had a beard. And I mean totally atypical. Although folks who are in the human the human intelligence realm, particular if they're case officers or or whatever,
• 46:00 - 46:30 will often be, you know, have relaxed dress standards and encouraged to dress differently and all that. And um so I figured they were human, but I got into a conversation with them a couple of times trying to figure out what they did. And I said, "Well, are you guys in a human organization?" They said, "No." I said, "Okay, well, what do you do?" They said, "We can't tell." I said, "I know that, but you can at least tell me which intelligence discipline discipline you're in. Are you in signals intelligence, imagery intelligence,
• 46:30 - 47:00 human intelligence, uh measurement and and signatures intelligence? What?" They said, "Uh, none of those." And I said, "There isn't anything else. What do you mean none of those?" And then I said, "Uh, well, um, thinking this might reveal something." You say, "Do you do a lot of traveling?" And they said, "No." And then Tom said, "Well, sort of. Yeah. So, it made no sense to me. But later
• 47:00 - 47:30 on, um, they knock on my door and they both of them came over and said, "Look, we think you might be good at what we do." And of course, they said, "What do you do?" And they said, "We can't tell you yet." I said, "Well, how do I know?" And they said, "We're going to give you some tests." And I took some psychology tests and personality profile tests and those kind of things. And uh and apparently I scored where they wanted me to because they took me over to the office and read me on to the program. Uh and I joke it's kind of like my Men in Black moment where you know Tommy Lee
• 47:30 - 48:00 Jones is reading Will Smith onto the Men in Black program. Yeah. You know, you'll have your fingerprints erased, you'll sever all human connections, you know, blah blah blah. It was kind of like that because I was, you know, I had been read on to top secret, special compartmental intelligence, gamma, delta, and another caveat, you know, all of these different levels of of intelligence access. And this readon was more strict than anything I'd done before. It was It was
• 48:00 - 48:30 kind of bizarre. Anyway, then Tom says, "What we do is we collect intelligence against foreign threats using a parasychology discipline known as remote viewing. Uh, basically we want to invite you to volunteer to become a psychic spy." And he said, "Now, you don't have to tell me till tomorrow. You can have 24 hours to think it over. Here's some the three things you can tell your wife about this, blah, blah, blah." And I said, "I don't need any of that." Yep. I absolutely want to do this. Yep. I'm
• 48:30 - 49:00 with you, man. I'm I'm there, baby. As soon as I heard that, I'm like, I would absolutely be where do I sign up? Um, and do you have any sense of why they thought you might be a good candidate? because you hear these stories that you know from people like McMongle and I think um uh David Mohouse like there like there there's like there's some kind of precipitating reason why like they survived something they had some sort of anomalous experience like I think in uh uh David Mohouse's case you
• 49:00 - 49:30 know he during a training exercise got hit by a machine gun round and had like an out-of- body experience that sort of Yeah that's made up really okay yeah now he did get hit by a machine and around it hit his helmet. Okay. In fact, he was quite proud of it. He had it still hanging on his wall at his house. The round had it had cooked off. So, if a machine gun's hot and they close the bolt and there's still around in the chamber, sometimes the heat will make it fire. And and the round had come over and it actually hit the lip of his helmet. And Kevlar, of course, is made
• 49:30 - 50:00 out of sandwich of materials. And uh uh and the bullet had tunnneled up and I I knocked him down. It stunned him. But and if it had been an inch higher or an inch lower probably would have killed him. But the helmet actually did its job here. Um but all of that stuff about out of body experience, all that stuff, that was that was something that came long after he'd ever been in the program. Wow. When he wrote Psychic Warrior, uh it I guess it made a better story. I
• 50:00 - 50:30 don't know. But he did not get recruited because of any kind of out-of- body experience or anything. So Okay. So that's a that's another piece of lore you just may be familiar with from you know other sort of uh sigh paranormal things that often times there's like a a relationship between some sort of traumatic event that begins people's um ability to do these things. But it seems like in your case and a lot of other people's cases this was not a
• 50:30 - 51:00 necessary component. In fact, they they wanted at least when when SRRI was working this, they wanted to avoid those kind of things because what would often happen is a person would have an experience and they start building this whole structure of of explanation and justification stuff around it and then there'd be a whole bunch of stuff to unlearn when they came to the program, right? It would kind of kind of taint them as a as a trainee in a way, right? For example, Joe did have a some apparently quasi paranormal experiences,
• 51:00 - 51:30 but that wasn't why he came on board. And they may not have even known about that when he first came on. Um, how those first six viewers were recruited was they, uh, Skip and Scotty Watt, the major that was he was working with, um, circulated a, uh, I can only think of the German word, minor infra, uh, I I guess a study or survey, that's I think they're working for a survey
• 51:30 - 52:00 amongst intelligence professionals in the DC area. Um and uh and you know there's mostly kind of straightforward questions but there would be little ones like how you how do you feel about paranormal you know how you and people who answered paranormal and everything to do with that that's nonsense. Um they didn't approach them but if they if there was an indication that people that the person might actually be interested then they would interview that person because that meant they were open at least to the idea. Um and they
• 52:00 - 52:30 eliminated some folks who were just too over the top uh and folks who seemed to be fairly grounded then they would move them along to the next set of interviews and such and ultimately the let they let SRRI target and put off actually came out and uh and selected the the they were going to select si three but they said these are all good can we have six and so they gave him six right and amongst them were Mel Riley and Harley Trant and and Joe and some other folks
• 52:30 - 53:00 as well. So, uh but uh yeah, in my case, I didn't have paranormal experience. Tom McNair didn't have one as a precipitating factor for this. Uh and Joe did have them, but that wasn't the cause, the reason he got selected. Mel Riley, same thing. You know, we could I could go through the whole list and and not really any of us did. Interesting. Yeah. So, so what is the process of being onboarded onto this like? are like I've heard some I don't remember where I
• 53:00 - 53:30 heard this but like that there's all these files you had to read to sort of like get sped up on why they think like how this may work. I don't know. I I don't know what the contents of what they showed you was, but what what do you remember or what can you talk about if So, there was no required reading, but there's recommended reading. Okay. Um, one of them everybody was universally encouraged to read mind reach, which was the book by Taran Putoff, published in 77. Uh, and that's actually the book
• 53:30 - 54:00 that got skip atwater interest in remote viewing as well. he came across that and and uh and all of a sudden all kinds of lights went on and said, "Wow, if this is real, it could be a threat to our security." And he was a counter intelligence officer at the time. Um so yeah, so Mind Reach was the one for sure. Um there were certainly plenty of other documents. There was the the the document Dale Graph had written and the other one which I think he may have written as well, paraphysics and the paraphysics and something or other. I can't remember what it's called exactly.
• 54:00 - 54:30 Um there were and there's an interesting story about those too having to escape Atwater, but maybe you'll get him on sometime. I'd love to hear. Um yeah. Um well, I have to go clear back. We were encouraged to read actually a lot of Arcane stuff that we came across ourselves. Like at the time, I didn't really know what was appropriate to read and what wasn't. So I read uh a number of Ruth Montgomery books. She was a medium uh of sorts. Um I loang rampa read some of his stuff. Is he like
• 54:30 - 55:00 a huh Tibetan? I think he was actually American but he adopted uh yeah and he was into mediumship into I think and I can't remember the name of the book but I think it had third eye in it which was an interesting coincidence here right for your podcast. What about um what about like Bentov? Um we could have read that. I I didn't because it didn't really seem to me uh at the time I didn't know a lot about
• 55:00 - 55:30 it. Okay. You know, of course you couldn't get on the web and read a review or anything, right? Um and even now I don't know that it would be that useful in terms of if you're going to want to learn remote viewing. So Sure. Yeah. I just mean maybe you know some of the theory and like you know physics ideas and ideas about consciousness and and all of that. Clearly um I'm I'm assuming you're familiar with the the declassified gateway process paper and yes how heavily that just keeps coming up. Well yes I mean and for me as someone who
• 55:30 - 56:00 went to Monroe I couldn't resist diving into all of that and um you know he well let me say it is it the gateway document is is an interesting and worthwhile read. I the problem is that when the media gets a hold of it they blow it way out of proportion. They say the CIA proved life after death or whatever or first of all it wasn't the CIA. This was an army produced document before, you know, it didn't have anything to do with the CIA. It just happened to be in the CIA Stargate archives, which happened to
• 56:00 - 56:30 be the CIA archives because Congress made them take it. And I will personally apologize to you and the public. I I I do these things for clickbait, too, knowing full well that it's not that it's not accurate, but it gets clicks and and I'm and I I try to get people into the content and then give them good research stuff once they get in. Um but but but yeah, on that on that note, you know, there's I wanted to ask you too about did did you know is it Wayne McDonald who wrote that document?
• 56:30 - 57:00 Lieutenant Colonel. Yeah, I think that was his name or O'Donnell. I can't I'm not remember right now. He was actually Lieutenant Colonel. He was the commander of debt o which was a uh subunit of the ops army ops group where I was first assigned before going to the moon program point of personal interest for me because when you not much you can find about him out there so yeah I was curious no I I happened to know some folks who knew him so I've talked to them a little bit but even they didn't have a lot to say about him other than
• 57:00 - 57:30 what his position was the story so so the the the colonel that was my commander at ops group and the guy responsible for letting me go to the remote viewing program. Yeah, I'd only worked for the his name was Hamre, John Hamch. Great guy, true war hero, great guy. Um anyway, uh I'd only worked for him for about 3 months and then I get this invitation to join the remote viewing program and he didn't have to let me go because the commander
• 57:30 - 58:00 particularly first year or so that you're with can declare you operationally essential and nobody can pry you loose except in a national emergency. And so uh I went in and told him I was being recruited for this program which he knew about. been read on to it and he said, "You know what? I' I'd love having I love having you here, but if you can do something more important for national security by by being a remote viewer, then you have my blessing." Wow. And he turned me loose. Anyway, he was interested in all this
• 58:00 - 58:30 stuff, the leading edge, you know, the human potentials movement, all that. Cool. Partly because his commander, General Bert Stubble, Yeah. was very fascinated and interested in this. And uh and of course Bert Stubble's action officer for this was John Alexander. A lot of folks probably are familiar with him. Um but Stubeline was interested in it and O'Donnell I mean not sorry Hamrech um Hamre was equally interested and he had his own little project. He
• 58:30 - 59:00 had a couple of folks including my friend John John Nolan um who are out there at least as part-time exploring this material as well. and McDonald Oddonnell. I I I I'll have to look it up again now. Both names are stuck. I think it is McDonald. Okay. All right. Well, well, I'll keep saying McDonald then. Um anyway, uh Ham needed somebody. He wanted somebody to to evaluate the Monroe program, the Monroe Institute program. And so he assigned McDonald to
• 59:00 - 59:30 do it. And McDonald goes down. And I I he took a gateway program and then he um he interviewed I think now it's been a while but I think he interviewed Bob Mc Bob Monroe and maybe some other folks associated with it and then he cross reference that with Bentov and uh uh who's the other guy who was doing popularized consciousness physics? Um there's the dancing woolly mister uh
• 59:30 - 60:00 masters. There's the in search of the wild pendulum. Those are two talking the wild pendulum. Yeah, that that's that's Ben talk. Um yeah, he's really the one throughout the paper that is. So I read that I read that whole document on the channel. Yeah. And he's really they they do, you know, they reference bomb and they reference other physics ideas, but he's really the one who you can tell is the source of Yes. Yes. Okay. Well, anyway, so so Monroe wouldn't have put those two
• 60:00 - 60:30 together, right? The Bentoff stuff and and and his own uh program, but he certainly would have endorsed it if it if it got him traction. Got it. Bob was really he really of course wanted to promote what he was doing. Yeah. Uh and at that time it wasn't because it was making him a lot of money because it wasn't. It's because it was something he really believed in. Bob Monroe was really really uh sincere about u pursuing this other branch or other aspect of human
• 60:30 - 61:00 consciousness. And so I'm sure he would have been fine with it. But uh this document that McDonald produced was really his baby. It really was. Um and he wasn't doing it. You can kind of read it and say, well, he wasn't even doing it for for Ham really. He was only doing it for himself. And it came out really quite amazing. A lot of it's speculative. Yeah. Some people take it as literally true and it isn't necessarily but it isn't false either. It it's speculative trying to figure out
• 61:00 - 61:30 how these pieces go together. It's kind of a a self-exloration of the consciousness universe. And it's a great document. I just uh tend to misunderstand other than the runon sentences which are brutal especially trying to read it out loud. Um hey the guy was an army officer. What do you think? Yeah. Yeah. But but no amazingly you know amazingly well uh researched really challenging to try to encapsulate the the practicality of the method you know talking about the focus levels and then also as a non-scientist
• 61:30 - 62:00 I'm assuming I don't know his full background but trying to get the scientific theoretical philosophical ideas all smashed together in one document that that's a that's challenging undertaking. Yeah. And and you know to his credit he did a pretty decent job of it you know. Yeah. So, so that this is a bit um far a field from specifically what what you did though I think I heard you say that you may did you go to Monroe Institute at one point. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, so eventually that
• 62:00 - 62:30 at least tangentially comes into your experience but yeah well let me let me give you a little more chronology there. Uh, so I was recruited into the program, officially joined the program on the 1st of September in 1983. And in December of 83, I and Ed Dames, who you're probably familiar with that name, uh, were sent down to Monroe by the army. Uh, well, army technically, but it was, uh, you know, from Stubble's
• 62:30 - 63:00 headquarters. sent down to the army as uh they thought in ter it was they considered it to be a good preparatory experience for getting remote viewing training CRV training. So we went down and did uh uh gateway program and uh that was quite an experience. I could go into more detail on that too but I think I'll skip it for now. Um but yeah so uh we used hemisync. So, so the the uh main
• 63:00 - 63:30 tool main technology of the Monroe Institute is this thing called Hemisync where they it's an audio technique where you play uh just out of phase tune. So, one one sound in one ear and then another sound that's just slightly out of phase from it and you're able to establish a frequency following response inside the brain where both hemispheres, excuse me, get on the same wavelength. So, you like my graphics here? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'll throw some I'll make sure to leave
• 63:30 - 64:00 your hands up, but I'll also put some uh some photo too. Okay, fine. So, um so you essentially attune both hemisphere to the same frequency spoken very roughly. Yeah. U and it's thought that this actually enhances the ability of the the hemispheres to work together and it the ultimate goal at the Monroe Institute is to get you in the right frame to have an out-of- body experience. Um, frequently it doesn't accomplish
• 64:00 - 64:30 that because I'm sure there's other variables involved, but it does happen sometimes for some folks who go there. Yeah. Um but we used it as a kind of a cooldown me I'm cool down quotes here cooldown mechanism where uh before we did particularly what we called erv or extended remote viewing um we would listen to a focus 10 or focus 12 tape. We were using cassette tapes back then and get us in a kind of a frame, a unified hemispheric condition where we
• 64:30 - 65:00 would be more amenable or conducive to to receiving a remote viewing remote viewing input. Interesting. Um, and you know, I think it worked. I mean, it could have been placebo effect because it's but it seemed to work. And uh the the one of the interesting things about hemisync is that once you understand what it feels like, you can kind of self-induce without the signal even. And so um I think I probably still do that a little bit even after all these years
• 65:00 - 65:30 when I do a remote viewing session is sort of self-induced a synchronized hemispheric state. And uh you know it if it doesn't work it certainly doesn't hurt, right? Um I do think it it does have some benefit to to remote viewing functioning in the long term. So yeah, it's it's very interesting and and with I won't tell my story for the millionth time, but just so just so you're somewhat aware of of my experience, I you know was I was having a great experience during my my
• 65:30 - 66:00 Gateway retreat um punctuated by occasional just sudden images popping in and interesting phenomenology, but mostly just very meditative, very relaxed, uh very uh self-reflective. And then to my great great surprise, Paul, on the last day of the retreat, I I had a full-blown OBBE and it was very ontologically destabilizing. Like for about a full day, I was just walking around just shaking my head just being
• 66:00 - 66:30 like that happened. O, okay, you know, and just kind of like I'm I'm here, but that can happen. And you know, for about the next few days, I was every time I'd go to bed, I'd be like, like I is that going to happen? Yeah. Is it going to happen again? And it it really it it really didn't happen like that. And again, just so just in case you're curious, I didn't have any super mindblowing uh you know, being spled across uh the universe
• 66:30 - 67:00 or anything. I really did just stay in my check unit and like achieve liftoff and you know the full-blown sensation of of oh my god this is happening like and the you know the the rushing of energy sensation um and then trying to get control of it and really not being able to and then just the fear really setting in um and and physically or or I don't know astrally asking for help and then
• 67:00 - 67:30 eventually I just kind of went back down, popped out of the check unit, went downstairs, and just sort of shook my head. Um, but but yeah, got a diet coke. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Um, yeah. So, so that was my experience. But but anyway, and maybe maybe we can wrap up the the Monroe chapter because it it does seem to be tangential to your experience and I don't want to dwell too long on it, but um it is this interesting sort of it feels like like other than the
• 67:30 - 68:00 fact that you use it for your cool down um procedure and for people who haven't heard this before, there's this idea that you sort of get into a meditative calm state before you do a viewing, right? And they call that the cool down period where you're sort of separating yourself from the day and whatever you have on your mind and you know whatever. And doing one of these um binaural beat uh he hemisync meditations helps get you into that. Yeah. Yeah. I
• 68:00 - 68:30 used to actually listen to heavy metal. No. Yeah. I love heavy music too. Yeah. But I actually um just to toss in, you don't have to do a cool down to be have success at remote viewing. I want people to know that. Um in fact, for me, I thought it got got to be a bit of a crutch and so I really don't bother with it anymore. Uh it did add another 15 or 20 minutes to the length of a session for one thing, right? And uh when you living under perpetual time constraints, that's maybe not a good
• 68:30 - 69:00 it's a good thing not to have so much, but but uh you Yeah, but you should be able to do remote viewing under any condition. And uh and so I've kind of got myself away from the the perceived need to do a cool down. But at the time it was helpful particularly since we were just starting out. you know, we're just noviceses at this and and having something that a sort of a ritual to get into uh was really pretty helpful. So So once you're
• 69:00 - 69:30 you're in you have the method, what is a typical day like? I mean from the logistical to the taskings themselves, what like are are you being tasked daily? Like what is it what is it like being part of this? So you are you talking specifically about Fort me? Yes. Is that what you mean? Yeah. So, uh once we done all of our training and we were working as operational remote viewers, um the rule was for long-term uh we
• 69:30 - 70:00 rarely did more than one session a day because it's easy to get burned out. Yeah. You know, if you do enough, you get to the point where you don't care and then you start phoning it in and and your work suffers, right? Um and we didn't do operational that is real world taskings every day. It was like every other day and days when we weren't doing real world we do um essentially practice targets because a lot of the of course most of our real world targets were intelligence collection efforts and uh
• 70:00 - 70:30 we oftenimes wouldn't get feedback for a long time or ever and feedback in a remote viewing session is essential so you can learn and so you can keep your skills tuned up. uh if you don't if you can't find out what the target was for for months and years even sometimes um then your edge can slip and you don't even know it because you don't have anything to compare uh to. So we would
• 70:30 - 71:00 do practice targets where there was known feedback and a lot of them were what we called utility assessment targets which might might be real world targets but the ground truth was already known about them and so we would go in like maybe it was a a a Soviet antib-bolistic missile radar and outside of Tash Kent or something, right? Um we go in and do that um target and then we could get actually feedback on it uh after the fact. And so we can compare
• 71:00 - 71:30 what we got with what we could have gotten or should have gotten and see where we need to tweak our process a little bit or or at least reassure us that we're still getting on the signal and all that. Um so it was a good uh it was actually operationally essential to do that kind of thing to make sure when we were doing targets that we didn't know the ground truth, nobody knew the ground truth of, we had a higher probability that we were doing it correctly. M what is the moment for you where this really clicked in terms of
• 71:30 - 72:00 you understanding okay this is real I can do this like holy this is like this has gone from a theoretical thing and a process I'm trying to something that is I just demonstrated to myself is is real do you remember that moment yes that was the donut story ah okay so when I first got into the program and this was before Monroe not that that matters Uh, in fact, it was like a week or two after I I'd been assigned and got my
• 72:00 - 72:30 desk. In fact, I mentioned Harley Trend had passed away. I got his desk which made me a little nervous at first. I was hoping there wasn't bad juju associated with it. But uh um there one of the processes one of the experimental paradigms is called outbounder which is where a an outbound team that's one two three people go to a randomly selected target physically go
• 72:30 - 73:00 to a target and then the viewer is expected to find these people. They act like beacons in a sense lighting up the target. Here we are. This is where you're supposed to be. Right? That's kind of the idea. And so then the viewer will be in a sequestered room maybe with a with an interviewer. Usually it was, you know, we'd be in there with Skip because he was our training officer. Um, and then the remote viewer would remote view the target and then the team, the outbound team would come back,
• 73:00 - 73:30 get get the viewer and take that person out to the target where they get real time feedback. Okay. So, um, Tom and Charlene. Charlene was another, uh, is a woman who's trained with me and and another guy named Bill Ray who who gets mentioned every now and again. Um, anyway, Charlene and Tom were the outbound team and they, you know, drew a random target and they were sent to this huge water tower just north of Fort Me a
• 73:30 - 74:00 little ways. It was blue. It was one of those that looks like a giant spider where you've got the big dome and a central pillar and then all of the pipes around the outside. Okay. Yeah. So, they go there. They spend their 15 minutes walking around banging on the pipes, hugging the pipes. I don't know, whatever. And then they came back and they they came in and uh they along with them. They brought some donuts and we're eating the donuts and they're taking me out there and I get to the the water tower and and I'm looking at saying I got nothing. What I had gotten was a room with uh frosted light coming in,
• 74:00 - 74:30 little kind of spindly tables and chairs, windows with little lacy curtains in them, and off in the end a glass partition with some things behind it or whatever. And so I'm describing this and and I'm think now I realize that Skip is saying, "Where the heck is he? That's not in our target base at all." Right. Anyway, um we're coming back from the water tower and I'm thinking, "Oh no, they're going to I got nothing. They're going to In fact, that
• 74:30 - 75:00 water tower is about the color of my shirt. I just realized." Anyway, we're coming back. Uh and I'm thinking, "I'm going to be fired and I've only been here a week, you know, and and uh we're going down the road and all of a sudden I say my attention is drawn off to the side." Say, "What's over there?" And Skip, who had figured out what's going on, said he didn't say what it was. He said, "Uh, if you don't get the target, it doesn't matter what you get instead." And I go, "What?" He said, "Never mind.
• 75:00 - 75:30 Let's go over there." So, they turned off the road, went over and walked in, and there's this room with frosted light coming in, frilly curtains, little tables with chairs, and a counter in the back, glass front with donuts in it. Interesting. And what had happened was the outbound team had violated protocol. You're supposed to go straight to the Target and straight back. You're not supposed to deviate. Well, they'd gotten hungry for donuts. They stopped in the doughnut shop. So, I had picked that up, right? I picked up the doughnut shop.
• 75:30 - 76:00 And uh and in fact, amusingly, my father-in-law later when I told him the story said, "Yep, trust you to find the donuts." Anyway, uh so what I learned I learned a number of lessons from that, but the main one was that it actually did work because when I saw what I had remote viewed, I knew for a fact that I had remote viewed it. So I knew it worked. Now, it may not have worked the way it was supposed to work for me, but that
• 76:00 - 76:30 was another lesson I learned. I learned the importance of keeping your intention on the task and not not allowing yourself to deviate from that. And you do have some control over that as a viewer. You don't know what the target is, but you do know that you're supposed to be fixed on what the intended target is and nothing else. So anyway, that's when I knew it worked. A week into the thing, I knew it worked. I didn't know if I was going to be successful at it even then, but I knew at least I had
• 76:30 - 77:00 some capacity. So, what other what are some other occasions, viewings, moments that really stick out to you that and by the way, are are any of these still classified or has this pretty much all come out now? So, like I don't know if there's occasions that you're like, "Oh, there's one, but I can't talk about it." Yeah. And I there's probably some where I can say, "Well, I'd have to say at least I can't
• 77:00 - 77:30 talk about some of it." Right. Got it. But generally speaking, as far as I have been able to tell, all of the operational remote viewing sessions, all of the training sessions, all the practice sessions, all that stuff, all of that was released in the CIA Stargate Archives. Okay? And let me give you a little history of that. So people call them the Stargate Archives, but actually what they are the contents of the 13 five drawer safes that we had in the headquarters building at the project. And when the when the whole pro
• 77:30 - 78:00 program was transferred over to the CIA in in 1995, the CIA instantly canceled it. Literally, it it transferred in in uh on January 30 or June 30th, 1995. On June 30th, 1995, the CIA closed it down. They never actually ran it. But what they did inherit was all of these these five drawers. So what's five times 13? that 50 65 safe drawers full of classified
• 78:00 - 78:30 documents having to do with the Stargate program. Now, there were also classified documents within the CIA that weren't part of that. And there were a ton of research documents that Ed May, the the research scientist that took over for how put off when put off moved on in 1985. Um, all of those none of those are really in this release. Okay, they just took the stuff we had at Fort me and declassified that. Okay, after redacting
• 78:30 - 79:00 some stuff. Uh, usually all the redaction had to do with the uh the evaluations, the confirmation and stuff because that gave the targets away. The raw data, the actual operational t remote viewings are there, but without knowing what the target was, they don't do you any good. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Um, and it just so happens that I know what a lot of those targets were. So uh selectively I'll uh I acknowledge them uh I say selectively because one of
• 79:00 - 79:30 the reasons you classify stuff like that is not necessarily to hide that part of it. It's because no intelligence collected in a vacuum. It also involves other kind of intu intelligence methodologies sources mechanisms and such and some of that stuff is still really sensitive. Yeah. It may compromise the person who gave that information not for example. For example, yeah. So, so there are legitimate reasons. There are illegitimate reasons for keeping stuff classified. Yeah. But there are also
• 79:30 - 80:00 legitimate reasons for keeping stuff classified as well. And so I try and distinguish appropriately here uh when I'm involved in any of this stuff. So makes sense. So, so on that note, notable viewings or notable things maybe that you were even tangentially involved in. Well, and and of course, a lot of this stuff I don't even remember. Some of it fair enough might still be sensitive.
• 80:00 - 80:30 Um, and a lot of it wouldn't mean anything to people, but I'll I'll I'll talk about some anyway. So, we had a whole selection of of of Soviet research and development targets that we were tasked on. Um, and you know, there were some of it was down in the weed stuff like some kind of factory that produced certain kind of widget uh that went into maybe it was a component of a ballistic missile. Very, you know, people generally would not even really be interested who weren't right immersed in
• 80:30 - 81:00 trying to assess threats and stuff. Um but some of it was um of course much more interesting. We did so this happened before I was there. They remote viewed a Chinese nuclear weapons test. Wow. And uh and that u let's see who was involved in it. I think it was Swan. Anyway, uh the remote viewing was successful. the the nuclear test was not
• 81:00 - 81:30 but the remote viewing was successful in that it described that people there were disappointed in the outcome uh that it wasn't fully up but there was still a lot of celebration going on because what needed to work did work. So what happened it didn't go critical. In other words, a nuclear weapon dingo critical, but the ignition device and the and the uh initiation process and stuff apparently was because it produced a a a kind of a chemical explosion as opposed
• 81:30 - 82:00 to a nuclear explosion or something like that. Okay. Uh it was LUR. If people want to try and research LO PN lure in uh in the archives, they may find the report for this. I'm not sure. But uh but see and that's what remote viewing is kind of good at is because we had no intelligence means to actually observe or detect what happened with this test. U but the remote viewing successfully actually accessed what needed to be
• 82:00 - 82:30 accessed and reported it accurately. And was there ever any confirmation on that? Well, yeah. I I can't tell you details on that, but I'm sure there was. uh otherwise we wouldn't have known that it was successful. Right. Right. Yeah. So, but often times remote viewing worked as what we call a tip off me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me mechanism where it tells you there's something you need to pay attention to or something you need to go back and look at that's already happened uh because there might be something there
• 82:30 - 83:00 that you missed and that happened in a number of occasions. Yeah. Well well some you know and so this brings Go ahead. No no I I was going to I was going to shift into something else so please continue. Okay. This brings me full circle around to Robert Gates and the people who say that remote viewing never amounted to anything. Uh his specific statement has never influenced any policy decisions or anything. Remote viewing never contributed that which is false actually. Now whether he realized it was false or not, I don't know. I mean I had a lot of respect for Robert
• 83:00 - 83:30 Gates other than his opposition for remote viewing. So anyway, um now Oh, Gates. Yeah. So, but Gage said, "Well, remote viewing never no remote viewing ever influenced policy." Something like that. I'm paraphrasing obviously. Well, I'll tell you one case where it absolutely did, and that was the MX spacing plant. And most people today probably don't know what that means. So, MX is what became the peacekeeper missile. It had uh it was
• 83:30 - 84:00 one of those multi-headed multi-warhead ICBMs, intercontinental ballistic missiles that uh that uh we were going to use it as a as a deterrent to uh similar missiles that the Russians were were fielding. Um but the problem is we weren't we didn't want to build a whole bunch of them. So we built a certain number of them. The idea was that we'd do this shell game where you'd have a whole bunch of these possible firing positions all throughout the Great Basin and either they truck
• 84:00 - 84:30 missiles in a closed container around from shelter to shelter or it was underground rail line kind of whatever. Anyway, the idea is to shuttle these missiles around on a random basis so the the Russians would not be able to predict where the missile was in each of the complexes. Which means if you have a 100 missiles and you have 100 shelter complexes with 12 possibilities, that essentially multiplies by many times the number of
• 84:30 - 85:00 targets that they would have to hit with their missiles in order to make sure they did not get shot back at. Right. Um, what you have to think about though is essentially what we're doing is we're holding that the idea that was a missile sink, right? They fire missiles and they were to be absorbed in the Great Basin instead of going to other targets around the country. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah, this is talked about I believe in phenomena and it's like this humongous like I think it's like is it millions of square
• 85:00 - 85:30 miles like section of desert where you have where there see as you're saying it is this place where all of these missiles are concealed and then shuffled around like in this hum I mean I can't even imagine the amount of the undertaking that must have been to build. Yeah, it was engineering engineering I won't say nightmare as engineeringly feasible but it still was a massive undertaking and of course the people in Utah and Nevada and I'm a native of Nevada well not I was born
• 85:30 - 86:00 there but I grew up there and now I'm transplanted Utah I did not like that plan even back then uh it it was in a way well we could get into nuclear weapons uh strategic planning I won't get into that either but but you know, but because Utah and Nevada had very small population, they didn't have much political push to get that, you know, to push fight back against it. Anyway, bottom line was there were the Air Force was going to go ahead with it. And of course, Carter administration was behind it. But they
• 86:00 - 86:30 tried a number of things to make sure that it was a foolproof system. And in fact, they did all kinds of interesting like like glue little uh cameras to the back of cockroaches and turn them loose to see if they'd migrate to where the heat signatures were in the the tunnels and stuff. They tried all kinds of things and they did, right? Like couldn't they didn't they kind of get attracted to it? You know, I don't know how successful that was. I only know about the remote viewing part of it. And someone said, "Well, we ought to try remote viewing." And
• 86:30 - 87:00 so the Stanford Research Institute, the SRRI folks, uh this was after Russell had left the program, I think, but it was Hal and Ed May and those folks, um they they um partnered with Charlie Tart. So Dr. Charlie Tart, professor of psychology in the University of California system, was very interested in parasychology for years. He just died like two or three months ago, I think. Oh, really? Great guy. He was a great guy and he's written some very
• 87:00 - 87:30 influential books as well in the field. Anyway, he tried a system. It was a simulation of the MX uh basing idea with 12 possible locations and then randomly selected location the number you know the a a uh reg I think random number generator or maybe a computer just a computer with an pseudo RA program in it. It would pick uh randomly which particular shelter was the correct one
• 87:30 - 88:00 or which particular box was the correct one and then uh a uh remote viewer/s psychic was supposed to determine uh which one it went into and using a very cons uh very sophisticated error correction protocol, you know, algorithm uh and the input from the remote viewer. They were able to 10 out of 10 times predict place. Wow. Wow. So all this huge
• 88:00 - 88:30 undertaking and and engineering marvel could not stop remote viewers from predicting where and that's and of course we didn't know how well that had worked. I mean we all knew how well it worked. The paper was provided to the red team the one supposed to solve this problem. Uh, but we didn't know if it had any effect on cancing the program, which Carter canceled the program shortly after that was done. Wow. Well, Senator Warner sent I want to say it was Ed May sent him a letter and there is a formal
• 88:30 - 89:00 reproduction of that in one of Ed's books, a letter stating explicitly that in his interaction with Carter, Carter had admitted the remote viewing was the thing that put the nail in the coffin of the MX missile. That's crazy. That's amazing. Yeah. There there's, you know, Carter came up recently. I I just did a podcast with Richard Dolan, who I'm guessing you know from Contact in the Desert, which I'm going to, by the way, this year. Oh, good. I'll see you there then. Yeah, I'm excited. I'm really excited. But yeah, he he has what what
• 89:00 - 89:30 he claims to be very very strong um anecdotal evidence from a very reliable source also about Carter being briefed on other things including ET and stuff like that. So yeah, he he's been coming up a lot lately. But but anyway, now we're getting real deep into this conversation. And I know we have one at a time, but um but yeah, so eventually though you you are tasked with just the
• 89:30 - 90:00 opposite of viewing mundane targets and you're eventually tasked with viewing a lot of anomalous um targets and and I know the unit is in in general like uh Dames in particular had this huge penchant for for trying to view all sorts of anomalous things and I know there are mixed feelings on this for obvious reasons. I think it is a very slippery slope and very prone to delusion. But I've been also dying to ask you about uh you remote viewing one of these same sites as Pat Price. Like
• 90:00 - 90:30 we mentioned early on in the conversation. Oh my, look at the time. I guess we'll talk about this one. Um yeah, please don't. Please don't. I've been waiting for this. Um so yeah, Pat Price views these four sites um you know pretty famously by any for anybody who's interested in this. l at least um one in in Alaska at Mount Hayes, one in Africa, one in Spain, and one in Australia. And um you, unbeknownst to you, are tasked
• 90:30 - 91:00 with remote viewing one of these same sites. And this is sort of in a nonofficial capacity, if I remember right, or is this part of something? Well, the stuff we did with Ed Dames was nonofficial. Okay. More or less. Um this was in a way official. Okay. So Skip Atwater was the tasker on this and I differentiate between the way Skip tked and the way Ed Dames tasked. Skip was very protocolentric. He was very much concerned with making sure we followed
• 91:00 - 91:30 the rules that keep kept it scientific. Right. Dames was kind of loosey goosey. So I don't know what to think about a lot of the stuff he had us do. But but Skip, if it was Skip that was managing it, I'm quite confident we did it right. Right. And so he had come into possession of the Pat Price notes about the four bases. Putoff had sent them to him probably not too long before this. U put off was kind of curious to see what we'd do with it too. I think is the reason that he passed it
• 91:30 - 92:00 on to Skip. And uh Skip ran Joe on all four of them and he ran the rest of us just on the Mount Hayes target. Of course we didn't know at the time. I mean the viewers got to be blind to the target. Um, and it's always even better when it's double blind. But, um, so we didn't know what the target was. Had no idea. Didn't realize it was had anything to do with ETSs or whatever. Up to that point, we've been working standard um training targets which were all
• 92:00 - 92:30 geographical locations or or similar, right? Something was concrete we had feedback on. Um, but what Skip like to do and and it's actually a smart thing to do is get the viewers working. And if you work them on the same kinds of targets over time, they'll start guessing and they'll start starting filling in the blanks with stuff they think about the target because they get to the point where they predicted just based on consistency of taskings. Skip would throw in these ringers every now and again, and it wasn't always UFOs or
• 92:30 - 93:00 things like that, but in this case, he wanted um sometimes it was sometimes something totally out of the ordinary, but he'd usually pick something that he felt like he had pretty good reason to think there would be some there there, right? Yeah. Um and these bases were were one of them. U so he ran us on this. Um and I'm not going to discount the fact that he was curious, too, right? He certainly, you know, curious, but he had just some justification from an operational training perspective and that he was trying to keep us off balance because an off-balance viewer,
• 93:00 - 93:30 if they're doing it right, are actually a a better viewer in the long term. So, he he he ran us on the uh on the Mount Hayes target. Mount Hayes is in Alaska, way up in the middle of nowhere. Uh very cold, etc. Um and you know, we just worked on it. And in my case, I uh so one of the more spectacular ones is Mel Riley's results. Mel actually sketched a cave going back into a mountain and inside the mountain, this cave and
• 93:30 - 94:00 uh and he had an alien who was playing a keyboard of sorts that he Wow. described as a communications device. Uh there was a bunch of other stuff in Mel's session. And I don't have it here, so I can't remember all the details. But and mine was kind of similar to that, although I didn't necessarily sketch a cave. I'm not even sure. I uh without going back and looking at it again, I'm not sure I actually got into the insides of it. Uh I mean, I did get into the insides, but
• 94:00 - 94:30 didn't realize maybe it was enclosed. I can't remember now. What was more important about mine was first of all, I detected these people. I said, "Well, they're kind of people, you know, I guess I call them people." And I said, and they're bored. I said they in a way they and I'm paraphrasing myself here. In a way they they felt like military personnel who were assigned to some tedious distant base away from their families and everything and and they had to do the job, but they didn't much like it there,
• 94:30 - 95:00 you know, and that was the feeling I was getting from these folks. And what was interesting was I drew a sketch of what you would look at today and say that's a tic tac. Yeah. based off of the Nimtts encounter. Looked just like a tic tac. And uh and in fact, it was very similar to a sketch that Pat Price has done in 1974. Wow. Um yeah, that's when it was it was 74 and Price did his stuff. Very similar to a sketch Pat Price had made in 74 of the Mount Hayes target.
• 95:00 - 95:30 Okay, that's and so that to me was Yeah, it was awesome. But here's the even more interesting thing. I think that I don't remember the feedback we got, but I never saw Pat Price's work and I don't think I knew it was Mount Hayes and I think the bottom line was they told uh Skip told us well this is one of the bases Pat Price reported on and that's all he told us. Okay. And it wasn't until I want to say
• 95:30 - 96:00 around 2006 2007, the date keeps changing because I don't remember exactly when it was where where Hal let me make copies of all of the Pat Price notes from this and I for the first time got to see what I had remote viewed back in 1984. Wow. You know, the the the Pat Price's version of that. And uh I tell you that's pretty fun. Yeah. That's got to be absolutely mind-blowing. Yeah. And and I mean what do you when you when you have an experience like that when Pat
• 96:00 - 96:30 Price saw something you saw something the other remote viewers I I don't know like what percentage of them all agree on or had similar reads on this. How how certain are you coming out of it again? You know that no of course the greatest thing would be if it were feed if there were feedback if you could confirm but you can't. I would imagine the next best thing has to kind of be a situation like this where you have a bunch of remote viewers you trust and they're coming away with similar results. Is that
• 96:30 - 97:00 generally your feeling? Yeah. I mean that's the next best thing isn't it to the actual eyes on target you know photographic evidence whatever that's the next best thing. It isn't absolutely foolproof. Sure. Because there is this phenomenon in remote viewing called telepathic overlay. Mhm. where sometimes one person's mental concepts about a target will bleed over into another person's mental concepts about the target and you may end up reporting the same thing and it's all
• 97:00 - 97:30 wrong because that the stronger viewer has gotten this uh mental noise concept and and it's bled into everybody else's. Now, the fact that all of us had some experience with not doing that, you know, you you kind of learn fairly early on to be more conscientious about it, right? um makes me think that there's more legitimacy to to it than otherwise. Um so and in that case kind of the same thing happened to me on another esoteric target anomalous I call these anomaly
• 97:30 - 98:00 targets. Yeah. Um back after I was in the program before I retired from the army called me up and said would you be willing to help me with a project and it turned out it was remote viewing an anomaly on the dark side of the moon. Yes. I wanted to ask you about this too. Yeah. Yeah. And uh there were three working on it. There was Ingo who apparently wasn't working blind, but oh well. Uh it was Ingo, right? Uh can I ask how would he not be working blind?
• 98:00 - 98:30 How would he Well, he knew what the target was. Okay. And he still remote viewed it, right? Which is generally a no no. But in his case, I guess we give him some leeway. But but let me but but okay just hold on before before we proceed. I just want to focus in on how could he have known is my question. I get you. Okay. So so when I say knew what the target is. He knew that there was an anomaly. He knew where it was. Got it. And and he knew what was known about it which I don't know what that was. But obviously the unknowns he
• 98:30 - 99:00 didn't know. So he was blind to those. Okay. Um, and until we actually land somebody there, it's still going to be unknown, at least from our normal epistemic kind of approach to these things. So, um, so he did know what the intended target was. He did not know what the unknowns were in that sense. I didn't even know what the intended target was. He just gave me a latitude and longitude. And I get in on this target and u and I'm saying, well, this is
• 99:00 - 99:30 weird. It's like really barren and there's these kind of mountains around about and and hey, what's this? I can't breathe, right? I recognize it there. And at that point, I knew I was on the moon, you know? And that's of course one of the things you may be blind to start with, but if the data comes in strongly enough, you sort of start to know what you're what you're dealing with, right? So you have a vague in the phenomenology involved in these experiences, you have a vague sense of of of not just data
• 99:30 - 100:00 coming in but being there, I guess. Well, sort of. Okay. Um, there's this phenomenon called billocation remote viewing. Yeah. And I used to misunderstand it. And when Tom McNair uh finally retired from the army and felt comfortable coming out of the closet on the remote viewing stuff, um he and I had a discussion about that and I realized I had misunderstood it. So I'm not going to get into what the misunderstanding was, but but billocation is where you have a
• 100:00 - 100:30 consciousness footprint in both worlds essentially at the target and also right there in the viewing room with you and your paper and your pen. You're sort of in both places at once consciously and so you do experience consciously to some degree the target itself while you are still consciously present in the remote viewing room. That's of course why we call it bloations because you're in both places at least mentally. Um, and so you would expect to have some
• 100:30 - 101:00 to some degree some conscious experiences, some experiential experiences, right? Uh, from the target in a setting like that. Now, usually it's not enough different from where where you're at in general, like for example, there's air to breathe in the viewing room, but the moon, of course, is starkly different in many respects, and so that you would think would be noticeable, and I did notice it. So, very interesting. But anyway, uh after, you know, um after the fact, I was able
• 101:00 - 101:30 to Ingo sent I and the other viewer who I've never met, uh copies of his report on this. He had done it for someone else. And what was striking to me was the details that I got, that Engle got, and that this other guy got as well. All three of us on a number of different things sketched and reported very similar things. Yeah. And
• 101:30 - 102:00 those things are very interesting which we which we haven't explicitly said yet. So please share. Yeah. Yeah. Well, uh All right. All right. So I'll spill the beans. What are how are we doing on time? We're good. I still have some time. Um, so our the overall concept of this is what all of us determined. There was a vast empty cavity inside the crust of what I now know was the moon. Um, that there was a passageway from the surface to it. Now, each of us
• 102:00 - 102:30 represented in a little bit different way. Um, although actually mine was up here and then it went down and then it was underneath. Let me see I can do it on camera. So there's an opening up here. there was a kind of a shaft and then there was it opened up underneath. And my experience with this was that it was partly natural, partly artifactual. In other words, it it was like there was a natural space that then had been engineered and and expanded and reinforced or whatever, right? Um, and
• 102:30 - 103:00 sketch was actually similar. It was a shaft going down and then actually then an open space down below. uh the other guys I'm I'm blanking right now on what he represented but it was it was it uh was coherent with what we had done as well right consist consistent word consistent with what we we had also done now um what one of the very specific things I got uh and for me it was one of the more controversial was this kind of manta
• 103:00 - 103:30 ray space vessels I guess is about what best way to describe it. Wow. Um and I drew a really quite detailed sketch of it. Um but the interesting thing about this was for the first time ever uh first of all I I detected that this thing was not just a a machine but there was actually a biological consciousness element about it. It's like this was a machine that was conscious and had biological
• 103:30 - 104:00 elements associated with it. Now, we've seen this in science fiction uh recently. Uh the this the remake of Battlestar Galactica had these um these ships that were part biological, part physical. Yeah. And uh Stargate, let's see, was it Stargate Atlantis? The Stargate series had something similar. Okay. Um but this session was done before either of those things were even created. And so yeah, that part in
• 104:00 - 104:30 itself wasn't culturally influenced. What was further of further interest was that as I am remote viewing this object, I'm getting the impression that it's aware of me remote viewing it. And and that had never happened before. I had never had the feeling that I was being perceived by anything at the target. And yet in this case, I was and and I got that this thing was really kind of annoyed by that. I was getting this sense of annoyance from this thing,
• 104:30 - 105:00 aggravation, and the sense that if I could if I could do something about this, I'd stop that guy right now. But it's like it couldn't and it was on a mission. It couldn't deviate. And even if it could, it didn't really have any mechanism to interfere with me perceiving it, but it felt like kind of like its privacy was intruded upon or whatever, and that I wasn't supposed to be there. And so, um, that was I mean, there were a number of unique things about that session that I did that I had absolutely no expectation of happening when I first got into it. So, um, can I
• 105:00 - 105:30 say that this is all real? No, I can't say that. No remote viewing is 100%. Uh, well, no remote viewer is ever 100%. Every once in a while you get a remote viewing session that is, but uh, no viewer ever gets it 100% of the time. So, maybe it was wrong. I don't know. But the uh the way it correlated with Ingos and the other guys stuff was was compelling. And then this just the experience of it was compelling as well for me. Uh it still could be wrong, but
• 105:30 - 106:00 I'll tell you what, I I kind of it made me think that there may indeed be something to this idea of alien bases on the moon. Wow. Which I had kind of discounted up to that point. Right. Yeah. I mean, so, so of course you're you're a very epistemically humble person and you seem like you're and again, this is why I think you're such a great representative of this conversation. So, if if you know you had to put money on black or red here, is is
• 106:00 - 106:30 it there? Is it not there? Is the Mount Hayes real? Is the thing that you experienced on the dark side of the moon real? Where would your money where would your money go? Well, I would put I would put uh the majority of it. Now, which ones is black real? Well, I meant I meant are they real? Are they not real in general? But I see how you can take No, no. I mean, yeah, I got you. I would put the majority of my money on real for both of those cases,
• 106:30 - 107:00 but I wouldn't put it all on on them. I'd keep some in reserve in case I needed to make a different bet to win back what I lost. Yeah, fair. Man, there there's so much I still would love to talk to you about. I know we're running out of time here. We haven't talked about consciousness in general. We haven't talked about um any of the emerging stuff. So, I'm just going to pick some of these emerging revelations um now that we're on this topic potentially of uh NHI or whatever you want to call it. Have you been following
• 107:00 - 107:30 these recent revelations from people like Jake Barber and the involvement of so-called psionic assets? And yeah, as much as much as I could. Um, and so, uh, you know, I was at contact in 2023. Mhm. Um getting ready to go home, get in the car to drive back to Utah from from Indians Indian Wells and uh Judy Chatteran, who is my kind of contact with those folks, comes running out and says, "Did you hear the news?" I said,
• 107:30 - 108:00 "No, what?" She said, "A whistleblower has come out and admitted that we have ET craft and and ETSs in cold storage or whatever." Right. And what? And that was David Grouch, right? Okay. Okay. It happened the Monday that contact in the desert ended. Wow. Which I don't know if that was symbolic or what, but it was interesting, right? And uh and so my very first thing was to call Hal put off and say, "Hal, is this David Grushky for real?"
• 108:00 - 108:30 And Hal said, "I've been working with him for years. He is absolutely real." Wow. And he is absolutely telling the truth. And so I use Hal to vet vet a lot of these folks, you know, and um because I'll tell you what, right now, you know, people suspect Hal is part of the conspiracy to hide all this stuff. He's absolutely not. Now, he does respect classifi classifications. He does respect uh national security and that kind of thing. So, there are things he doesn't talk about, but he has never
• 108:30 - 109:00 ever lied to me. And I've been able to ascertain that on many occasions because he'll tell me something that might even be kind of outlandish and then I find out later he was telling me the truth. Right? So I trust Howal implicitly. Uh and when he says that somebody is is the real deal, I believe him. Okay. Now I ask him about Jake Barber and uh and he didn't give me that total endorsement. Okay. But uh but we really didn't time. He's kind of like said I don't have time to talk about that right now. Uh but it
• 109:00 - 109:30 wasn't like with with Grush. She came right out and said now he probably hasn't worked with Barber. So that may be one of the reasons he's a little hesitant. Um but I'm finding it interesting the psionic stuff. Actually I'm going to be on a panel at uh contact where I'm going to be on the on a psionics panel discussion. Great. Yeah. So I've been doing some homework on that. Uh it seems to me first of all it turns out psionics the term was invented by science fiction writers in the 50s. Yeah. having to do with like interfaces
• 109:30 - 110:00 between like technology and mind essentially, right? Yeah. Yeah. And um I'm waiting so I've been listening to the podcast that involved Barbara and his crew. Uh I've been waiting for number three to drop, which is where they're supposed to talk about psionics, but I've also been looking into it behind the scenes. It's a it was a new term to me. Uh, and it kind of correlates with a term that we did use in Stargate called psychoenergetics.
• 110:00 - 110:30 Yeah. And I suspect they may be overlapping terms if not is, you know, isomorphic terms. Um, but I don't know enough about the psionic thing to know yet. Yeah. And so, you know, I'm I'm finding out more about it. Obviously, I'm on the panel because they want to know what I think of the crosswalk between psionics and remote viewing. And if it is as claimed to be, I'd say there must be there's probably some points of attachment between the two, right? But they're also not identical. Yeah. Because remote viewing is a passive kind of thing. Psionics is an active kind of
• 110:30 - 111:00 a thing. And so they're they're different in that respect. But anyway, yeah. So I launched into talking. You got something specific here that you'd like me to go towards? Well, I mean, this leads I know we're running out of time here, but this leads to the the very pregnant question of, you know, from from your perspective and from the public's perspective, these largely all SAI efforts seem to have stopped in 95 in terms of military
• 111:00 - 111:30 interest, uh, intelligence agency interest. I know Skip Atwater has recently said in a podcast that he doesn't think so. He he said that he was aware of like several other programs or something which I thought was a fairly big admission for anybody who's interested in this stuff. Um and you know these these emergences of people like Barber and these psionic assets and also have you heard the story from one of the guys and his team about um essentially his his grooming as a as a
• 111:30 - 112:00 kid in the gifted and talented program and stuff. No, I haven't heard that. This is this is juicy stuff. But I'm I'm going to have to tell you this now. I'm sorry. You don't have a need to know. Right. Just kidding. Just kidding. Right. Right. But I do need as well as it would have. But I do need to know. So, um, so anytime somebody talks about being groomed in a gift and talent program, I'm very suspicious of that. Sure. Very suspicious of it for reasons
• 112:00 - 112:30 I I won't go into right now, but I don't I don't know about this guy. I' I'd have to hear a story before I I'd reject it. But I have heard a lot of other people saying this that they well I was in this gifted program and they were they were they were recruiting remote viewers. No, guarantee you that didn't happen. They may have now thinking back thought they were. Uh but uh first of all, the CIA would never recruited kids. It's just too fraught with legal landmines to
• 112:30 - 113:00 begin with. and they've already been caught in enough trouble in the past, they could never guarantee they wouldn't get caught in this case and so they would not do that. Second thing is kids aren't actually the best subjects for these kind of things. Um there's some discussion that kids are more open to psychic behavior and stuff and I don't think that's been proved to begin with but let's say it's true. Let's say it's true. And one of the reasons is the logical argument. They say, "Well, it's because kids haven't been indoctrinated
• 113:00 - 113:30 in society yet. They haven't been taught that it's not possible. Therefore, it it would be possible to them." You know, I I had four kids and I'm the oldest of eight and I would not say that's an actual accurate assessment of children. Yeah, they haven't been in doctrine in society in general, but they also have a very narrow and limited concept of the universe. And their approach to the world is very much physics-based, even though they would not know to call it that because they've they've only had a
• 113:30 - 114:00 limited set of experiences and all their experiences had done with cause and effect. Right now, maybe they're still open. There's this term in uh in parasychology and other disciplines called labile which means you're subject to influence more more flexible more influenceable right and so I I presume their consciousnesses are kind of like that so maybe in one respect they're like that but the further problem with kids is that because they haven't had very much uh in
• 114:00 - 114:30 terms of education or experience in in what what's possible versus what's impossible. um it's very hard to teach them abstract concepts that they may have to understand in order to be successful in an actual applied consciousness project like Stargate or whatever, right? So, uh, leaving aside the the thing that they can't legally give consent to have their world changed, uh, which is a big problem if you're a government agency. Um, parents can
• 114:30 - 115:00 sometimes get away with it, but government agency, if it ever gets caught, is in really deep doodoo, right? Um, besides that, I don't think kids are good subject for this stuff. They there probably are good subjects for simple tasks like there's this uh mindsite is it called one of well is big into this stuff right u where the kid has a blindfold on and they're able to at least detect colors and stuff like that uh that's a simple easy to understand task by a kid but if you want
• 115:00 - 115:30 the kid to say well let's use two different examples remote view uh what's in a in a you know a Russian facility on the other side of mountains, right? They would have a very difficult time of conceiving of what it is you wanted them to do and then being able to capture and express the information that they encounter when they were there. Yeah, it would be very hard for them. Go psionics where you we're talking projected consciousness, right?
• 115:30 - 116:00 Um, in that case, it would also be very hard for the kid to understand what it is you want to do in that context. And whether or not they'd ever even be able to understand it as a young child, I have questions about that. I'm dubious. So, anyway, that's that's my position. I mean, it's a it's a fantastical story, and it was particularly fantastical when I when it was first making the rounds because it was he was anonymous and he was like telling this very detailed and interesting story, but a story that, you know, well, this is this could just be
• 116:00 - 116:30 internet lore. There's no person tied to this. But now he has gone public and he's one of the guys on on Barber's team. So for me that at least okay this is a person attaching their themselves to this story and he's seems to be working in a capacity where he's signed off on by someone who seems very impressive. So at least they're owning it. This person is owning it. Yeah. Um I where I would like to actually yes hear
• 116:30 - 117:00 or see that. Is there a a podcast or some kind of documentary? don't think he's done a podcast, but he wrote there's a whole he wrote the whole story and the story is out there. Um, and I can share that with you for sure. He he went I you know I I I am okay with making preliminary jury is out kind of judgments, but I don't like to make hard judgments until I know what it is that that is being actually being claimed because I've been wrong. So totally makes sense. Yeah. And and it seems
• 117:00 - 117:30 open-ended even from his story in terms of like he doesn't even really know like what they were like like what the end goal of this was. And there were many strange things like details of his story of like you know being exposed to certain things and him just not understanding what was going on and um stuff like that that to me makes it seem a little more credible because it's not some hero's journey where this guy is like you know it's it's there's a lot of open-ended just intriguing uh tidbits
• 117:30 - 118:00 but my friend I know well I'm willing to give it a a look see I'll I I'll happily share it with you and I would love to hear your opinion, but I know I know you need to go. Um, and we've got to let physical therapy won't do itself. So, yeah. Yeah. It's so there's something so um just I don't know like somebody who's so so accomplished and like a a psych an actual psychic spy just like the rest of us has to work on their back and has to
• 118:00 - 118:30 you know it's uh you you're just like I said at the beginning of this you're just such an amazing uh humble representative yet extremely accomplished in this whole field. That's I'm going to adopt that phrase amazingly humble. Yes. Well, you are. You really are. It's like you you you always try to downplay, you know, any any modicum of talent, which clearly you you have in spades. So, thank you for your time. I would love to do this again and um I'll happily I'll happily share anything
• 118:30 - 119:00 you'd like me to share. Sure. No, I appreciate it. Thank you very much.