How Ryan Shuck Sold 3,000,000+ Albums (and 400+ Million Streams)

Summary

Highlights

• Ryan Shuck emphasizes the importance of enjoying the learning and working process in the music world, not just the on-stage moments. 🌟
• He shares insights into the challenges of transitioning from a major label to an independent artist, highlighting both paths' benefits. 🎶
• Ryan reveals how modern musicians need to be versatile, often handling multiple revenue streams and business aspects themselves. 💼
• The discussion covers how crowdfunding and fan engagement are powerful tools for indie artists to thrive in today's scene. 💪
• Ryan underscores the importance of being approachable and maintaining positive interactions with fans and industry colleagues. 🌈

Key Takeaways

• Fall in love with the process of being a professional musician. It's not just about the stage glory! 🎸
• The music industry has changed, and indie approaches provide more control and possibilities now. Control your destiny! 🤘
• Success often requires a mix of traditional wisdom and modern strategies like digital marketing and crowdfunding. 🤑
• Merch and touring are crucial for income, but be smart with expenses to maximize profits. 🧳
• Collaborating and maintaining strong personal connections within the industry can be invaluable. 🤝

Overview

Chapters

• 00:00 - 01:30: Introduction and Best Advice for Artists In the chapter "Introduction and Best Advice for Artists," the speaker, Ryan, shares advice for music artists. He emphasizes the importance of loving learning and the process involved in being a professional artist. He points out that while performing on stage is enjoyable and rewarding, it is just a small part of the artist's lifestyle. Ryan highlights the need for dedication to the overall journey of being an artist, rather than just focusing on the moments of glory.
• 01:30 - 09:30: Major Labels vs Indie Environment The chapter titled 'Major Labels vs Indie Environment' delves into the life of a professional musician beyond the stage. Even at the pinnacle, such as performing nearly every day of the year, the glamorous on-stage experience accounts for just a fraction of their life. The reality involves rigorous work, discipline, and confronting possible disillusionment. Success brings mixed perceptions; some may unfairly view you negatively without knowing you personally, while others may idolize you undeservedly. Aspiring artists must brace themselves for these challenges.
• 09:30 - 15:30: Modern Music Economy and Indie Success In this chapter, the discussion revolves around the modern music economy and the path to success for indie artists. The conversation highlights an interview from Soundsfear magazine in which a successful music artist shares their experience of having to reconstruct their career while embracing the indie music scene. The chapter explores the distinctions between the traditional music industry and the indie environment, hinting at the challenges and opportunities indie artists face as they navigate their careers independently.
• 15:30 - 28:30: Artist Revenue Streams The chapter 'Artist Revenue Streams' explores the differences between being signed to a major label and pursuing an independent career as a musician. It discusses the advantages of each path, emphasizing that traditionally, artists had no choice but to sign with major labels to achieve success. This limitation has begun to change with the rise of the indie scene.
• 28:30 - 48:00: Touring and Financial Efficiency This chapter discusses the traditional mindset of aspiring musicians who believed that success hinged on securing a major record deal. Showcases and performances were viewed as stepping stones to being noticed by a label, which was seen as the ultimate goal for making a living in music. The narrative also highlights the contrast between the love for music and the harsh realities of the music industry, especially for those from small towns like Taft, California, where the notion of making a living as a musician felt distant and unattainable.
• 48:00 - 54:00: Lincoln Park's New Direction The chapter titled 'Lincoln Park's New Direction' reflects on the unlikely and challenging journey of artists trying to catch the attention of major labels. It highlights the cultural relevance that some artists eventually achieve, despite the odds being overwhelmingly against them, likening the success rate to winning a lottery. The narrative suggests a sense of camaraderie among aspiring artists as they navigate the music industry.
• 54:00 - 60:30: Conclusion and Future Projects In the concluding chapter, the discussion revolves around the unpredictability of success in the music industry, likened to buying lottery tickets. Simply getting a record deal doesn't guarantee fame or financial success, and it is possible to become famous without making much money. The chapter reflects on the significant advantages of being with a major label that supports an artist's direction, especially if it involves a pop sensation, while also acknowledging the uncertainties and challenges artists face. The narrative underscores the mixed reality of fame, fortune, and artistic endeavor in the music landscape.

How Ryan Shuck Sold 3,000,000+ Albums (and 400+ Million Streams) Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 ryan if you only had one minute to give music artists the best advice you possibly could what would you say one minute on the clock i would say that um you really have to fall in love with learning and you have to fall in love with the process and the actual lifestyle of being a professional artist the hour that you get on stage is just that hour if you're lucky to get a full hour that's really fun and that's glorious but I would say you know I'm a I'm I'm probably at the higher levels of you know making money as a professional
• 00:30 - 01:00 musician i've certainly been at the at at close to the highest level and you know you only get like if I played 300 shows a year that's only 300 hours per year of being on stage and being in the glory you know the rest of it is a lot of hard work a lot of discipline dealing with disappointment if you are successful half the people that you're going to run into think you're a jerk even though they don't know you and the other half love you and they don't know you so there's there's this whole other side of being a professional artist and you need to be ready to deal with that
• 01:00 - 01:30 yeah and actually so perfect timing 57 seconds leave a whole minute uh so I actually found a quote online from you um you know as I did as my deep dive to stalk you on the internet um I found one thing then I guess I'll credit Soundsfear magazine that you did an interview with um you mentioned how at one point you had to rebuild your whole career with with an indie environment in mind um and when we talked last time you you I was asking you kind of like like what do you find the differences between
• 01:30 - 02:00 being on major labels and and working with the kind of like the industry angle versus uh doing things more independently and working as a more indie kind of environment so uh I guess what do you mean by that and what do you have to say about like label versus going the indie route as an artist um I think that you know obviously there's advantages to both um I didn't know any other way when we started out the only option that you had to become a successful musician when I
• 02:00 - 02:30 became a successful musician was to get a big record deal that was what we all dreamed about you know that's what we did showcases for and if you're playing shows you were really playing shows to kind of get big enough to like have a label show up and you know that was really the culture and of course we played music because we love music of course but to make a living doing it or even get an opportunity to do it um actually the concept of making a living doing it was not even real to me you know I'm from a small town Taft California and the big city to me was Bakersfield California um I just
• 02:30 - 03:00 happened to be buddies with people that became uh corn and some other all this stuff that became kind of like culturally really relevant stuff but all of us were just trying to you know get the eyes and ears of a label if you think about it I actually think that's I mean your your chances of having a career are 0.00001 it's so bad i mean you I it I think you're just as likely to to win
• 03:00 - 03:30 the lottery you know you should be buying lottery tickets or something i while it's awesome to get a big record deal and actually have it work because once you get the deal doesn't mean you're actually going to become famous and and make money and all that kind of stuff in fact you can become famous and still not make money you know holy [ __ ] um you know I know lots of people that that happened as well um I think that the advantages are significant if you can get a major label deal where the whole label is really into what you're doing typically that's going to mean that you have some sort of pop
• 03:30 - 04:00 sensibility um if you're if you're especially nowadays if you're a candidate for playing the radio game it's extremely expensive um they really I mean you have to have a label with you know some sort of reach uh you know all over the territory i'll call it the United States or United States and Europe that can work in conjunction where the radio stations know that the artist is going to have support for years so why would they play your songs on the radio if they don't know that
• 04:00 - 04:30 you're going to be at that station in you know Cincinnati Ohio and you know Houston Texas or whatever if you're not going to be there three or four times a year why why would they start playing your music because that's what it takes in orgy we were do we would do an eight hour day before the show of press in every single city i would go to the radio station A radio station B i would go to a radio station event with like contest winners because they've been playing our song all you know all year
• 04:30 - 05:00 and having you these different promos and then I would go do a dinner with like other radio station people like the program directors i didn't even know that there was this many people to like please you know what I'm saying and this many fans to like greet and these many in you know things to go do but it took up our whole day and then we would do you know printed press and all that kind of stuff and then you play the show and then you do a meet and greet after the show with more radio winners and the DJs and so that was literally how you do a 14-hour day on tour with a tour bus
• 05:00 - 05:30 you'd think you're right you're waking up in the city how am I working 14 hours well that's the level and in every city we had a a label rep in each city who was setting all this up so the only reason I'm telling you this isn't to turn anyone off it's just that you have to understand that that is what like a pop star does you know that's what your day is like you know and to have a major label that can have that kind of a reach like a Warner Brothers we were on Rreeze
• 05:30 - 06:00 Records which is a part of Warner Brothers Records it's a it's a big label you know we would be traveling all over the country and the world and there are representatives from that label there that are bringing that have worked for three months to get all the people on board at all the stations in that town so it's quite an operation and you know to get that kind of thing to happen it's going to be millions of dollars and it's going to be some belief there's a lot of people involved you know we had management we had attorneys we had the label um we had the band Corn that was
• 06:00 - 06:30 literally advocating for us you know we signed to Repre via Elementary Records which means that Korn was our ANR essentially that's kind of cool i got to tell you that's the only reason I think that this really worked because there's a million incident instances where a band like us should not have worked you know we came out when corn limp biscuit and all these things were ruling you know the airways and ruling MTV and we came out with lipstick tight clothes and eyeliner and painted nails
• 06:30 - 07:00 and the music was heavy but we were we were probably 50% depode as much as we were 50% really heavy music right we were we were not fitting the slate so there was a million chances for the label to have you know to go to radio or go to MTV and not have success and then have them drop us but it didn't happen because we you know there's this huge infrastructure that you have to interact with and all these plans that are laid and you have to have you have to have champions in every you know part of it so that is daunting and
• 07:00 - 07:30 I don't know that it was anyone's skill set or whatever that made it happen i think it's a whole lot of luck and I should thank God for the what happened to me it's amazing now let's juxtapose that with the modern indie world which frankly as much [ __ ] as everyone talks about Spotify and as much [ __ ] everyone talks about you know oh music's basically free now and all this kind of stuff okay well then okay well then why did I make as much money as I made last year because I'm in a completely independent situation right now which took me years to figure out
• 07:30 - 08:00 because I come from that old world it's taken me years of mistakes years of screwing up years of hiring ter terrible people years of believing that that world exists for me but it doesn't anymore um years of thinking oh I'm from this big band why doesn't this door just open well because when you start something new you know you might get a little respect because of what you've done but at the end of the day what matters is what you're doing and and you
• 08:00 - 08:30 know the entire landscape's changed the way people enjoy music all this kind of stuff why is that good despite all the negative stuff you see in the press and all the stuff that big artists talk about like "Oh I didn't make a dollar from my streams all this kind of stuff." Well news flash your streams aren't really that's one piece of your business over here and look it's a little piece of pie there's this big circle and the rest of it that's where all the actual money is and the actual fan interaction
• 08:30 - 09:00 and the actual bread and butter nuts and bolts real music business with like a P&L you know a spreadsheet and the whole thing and there needs to be black at the bottom not red and so you know it it to me really anyone that has that has something special and of course that's the hard part right if you have something special if there's something about you you can actually nowadays you can actually consistently put in the work and there's a decent chance you can
• 09:00 - 09:30 actually make some money and do this for a living in this modern environment and I do not mean easy money i mean I mean you gota you got to work you got to stick and move you got to be you got to like I just said with your opening question you've got to understand what the art life is the art life is the life of a freelancer it's the life of you know you've got to figure out ways to make all of these different components of your business
• 09:30 - 10:00 work while still being an artist so um and a lot of times it means you have to maybe in the beginning work side jobs and stuff as well and you know I always did that you know um I like I know I know some artists who make their entire living from streaming but me too the vast majority of people I know that make their living from like a a music project so not just like they're a producer or they're they're a teacher or they're working in a college or something like they're they have an artist project that
• 10:00 - 10:30 they're making a living from they have like a hundred revenue stream not literally but you know they have streaming they have touring they have sync licensing they might even have endorsements and sponsorships and they have a Patreon thing they have crowdfunding they like a million things and and even each one of those categories like from touring it's not just like this the guarantees and or the whatever you get from the actual like ticket sales it's also the merch and then the VIP upgrades you can sell and then the sync licensing it's not just the upfront money but it's the backend
• 10:30 - 11:00 royalties um if you were to look at like you you mentioned this tiny sliver that streaming is for you guys what's the the biggest and best pieces of those of that pie and what's like the worst part of the pie for you or like in terms ter terms like percentages and fractions like what chunks are the biggest and most important for you guys um well it it can depend on where you're at in the cycle so a big big chunk for us in our cycle let's call it an album cycle if we
• 11:00 - 11:30 want to use like old school terminology so um we look at albums a little differently um I always uh talk to our clients and the the bands that are on our label which I call clients sometimes more than I call artists on our label because we have a different kind of situation a framework the label that I own is um you know we do we're almost more like a creative agency that kind of helps artists own their own music um we do a lot of stuff that is consulting as well so we get paid for it by project we produce but we also happen to be able to
• 11:30 - 12:00 release music and be able to do it the right way because there's a lot of things as you know that don't even involve ads but it involves even distributing the music correctly and there's a lot of like best practices and stuff even with your social media and um you know spacing it out correctly timing wise thinking of an album a certain way and that's for us an album is a you know it might be 10 12 songs but for us it's a year year and a half long uh uh bucket of content that we can use to
• 12:00 - 12:30 market the band all year long so we don't let's call it an album cycle is we got to get some money to make this big bucket of content now an album cycle for me means some videos it means um multiple photo shoots it'll probably mean two or three tours during the album not like the album drops and we go on this big like we're touring all over the world that's not how we do it we're dropping one two or three singles and then we do a tour and we're three four
• 12:30 - 13:00 and five singles and we do a tour and then we So we're making money and churning this thing constantly and while we're doing that because we're we're we're kind of loose with the way we know that there's an album that's been written already we already know that that's going to happen but we're not going to release the last thing I'd ever want to do in this modern music economy is release that whole album at once or even you know release four singles and then the whole album because you're wasting your chance to market those songs unfortunately you will literally see that the ones you dropped as singles
• 13:00 - 13:30 those will have big you know good spins and then the ones that weren't dropped as singles are going to be like you know I wouldn't doubt over time 40,000 you know plays and you're bummed you know because it's probably a bunch of good songs it's just the way the world um it doesn't mean your album's not worthwhile it doesn't mean that people won't buy it at the shows it doesn't mean that it just means that look every single song is important every song is important and you can you can release this stuff and repackage it and and re-release it and
• 13:30 - 14:00 do all these bitching things for live for your web store all this kind of stuff and it will sell it will sell especially if you get true fans but anyways I went on this huge tangent because all this is so connected that's actually a good point like I tell a lot of artists that like if I going to release a 12 song album I'm probably going to release nine singles yes and I I've seen people do you know 12 song album is 11 singles i've seen people do 12 song album is seven singles
• 14:00 - 14:30 but either way most artists are doing most of the songs as singles because they want to be able to milk every song for what it's worth they're not really doing filler tracks anymore it's like every track has to be a banger or I guess they might do not filler but like transitional tracks in the album so it's cool hearing you know you guys doing the same thing and and planning for that as well just at the scale you guys operate on because there's a lot of kickback from artists that I talk to and they're like I don't want to do that the album's special it's just art piece people need
• 14:30 - 15:00 to hear it in its entirety and they feel like it ruins the art and I don't think it ruins the art i think it just changes how people discover the art because the album still exists it eventually comes out think of it like it it's it's chapters in a book or it's it's seasons in a collection like a fashion collection um you know in the chapters in a book or or episodes in a really really great season of of your favorite show whatever it is that's the way we think of it so a lot of people will go buy Game of Thrones like the the the DVD
• 15:00 - 15:30 set or whatever or you don't do that anymore right but you would buy these before these collections so that's buying the album when you love something when you create true fans and by the way all of this is designed to create true fans streaming doing ads getting plays all that kind of stuff playing on tour all that kind of stuff is great and you can make money doing all of it but the whole point is you have to actually cultivate and develop true fans so to get back to the question you asked me to actually answer it I almost feel like I
• 15:30 - 16:00 have to say all this because these are important parts this is where we are in the process of an album cycle the Indiegogo campaign would probably be the biggest one for us we're a really really successful Indiegogo campaign band we're one of the you know our what we've raised is probably up in the top on the planet and I know that everything that we do is number one when we do it and we did this before we learned how to do ads and before we did like any good social media we're honestly very late to the
• 16:00 - 16:30 game with all of this stuff um it was done by constantly watering the garden of the fans by constantly cultivating the fan base and doing stuff for the fans so that when you do an Indiegogo campaign or something like that these people are there you know it's really hard like you have a good friend or you need a friend but you didn't talk to them all year and you expect them to just show up for you well good luck with that i mean some will well fans are no different you should be doing stuff with them so that's another great reason to put out songs regularly
• 16:30 - 17:00 and stuff so you know when we're in this you know beginning phase of this album cycle or this content creation process that crowdfunding campaign I think our last one we did 44,000 um but that's that's like it it's not an advance that's consider it like a pre-sale well it'll probably only cost us about 10,000 to make all of that like the vinyl the all the stuff so what just happened we just made you know $34,000 of seed money for the entire process now out of that
• 17:00 - 17:30 I'll probably take that i already know some stuff I'm going to do i'm going to take that money because it you know we produce and record everything ourselves um we're going to take that and we'll do other things with that money that'll end up making more money by making more cool stuff for the fans so that's really important and and we're focusing a lot on like what these campaigns are going to look like and um there's a whole lot of gamification in these campaigns there's a whole lot of thought you know we don't just film ourselves throwing a football to each other being cute we
• 17:30 - 18:00 actually tried that and it didn't work for us so this is another thing that's really important is the authenticity of what you're doing and creating something that works for you and for your fans most artists I know start off self-funding from a career you know I've met people met a guy who was a dentist y and by night he was a music artist and I I was the first dentist I'd ever met that was trying to become music like usually I meet with people and they're like "Oh I'm an engineer scientist i'm a
• 18:00 - 18:30 software developer i'm a plumber i'm a whatever." But dentist I've only seen once so shout out to my one dentist haven't you noticed that a lot of these artists are so smart and they really are they they're brilliant like I mean most artists that we work with that aren't popular yet and making a living from it they they obvious they honestly do have other ways of making money and they're very successful and and that's why they're willing to dump money into their dream i was a hairdresser oh really that's interesting yeah and I
• 18:30 - 19:00 and hairdressers um you know can especially here uh you can make a lot of money and you can look a certain way and you can have tattoos and back then tattoos are a lot more common now but yeah 30 years ago when I was doing it in the beginning you know having a look and having bleached blonde hair and this whole you know wearing eyeliner and stuff you kind of needed to I wasn't going to become an engineer that easily yeah yeah there was used to be a big stigma around I mean I I remember even in 2011
• 19:00 - 19:30 um you know working in Starbucks and stuff like there was rules against having visible tattoos and a lot of people would come to work with these like wraps to cover their sleeves um and then eventually I don't know 2015 or something Starbucks like allowed people to to wear them openly and then a bunch of other places were doing it too and so there's a stigma's changed over time of course but that's interesting you're a hairdresser that explains uh why your hair looks so fire though thank you thank you and it's so funny because when that was such a big part of orgy as well
• 19:30 - 20:00 was the look and a lot of that was something that I could bring to the table because I existed in that world and I was actually pretty successful hairdresser and you can make especially here i mean I think all over the country you know if you're charging anywhere more than a hundred bucks for a hair a haircut or a service and a color would be maybe you know 250 if you're doing like highlights and stuff like that so you think about that even if you do 8 to 10 a day right the money becomes quite obvious you know so for me that worked out really well and I could also pretty easily go okay I'm going to be playing
• 20:00 - 20:30 shows these nights and I'm only going to be working mornings and so it just gave me the flexibility that I needed um and and I I firmly believe that like the the modern professional is a combination of of multiple skill sets and it don't always make total sense together um you know a lot of the musicians that I know um and me included um you know we we and you included especially I mean you're a
• 20:30 - 21:00 highly technical guy um you know I sit and learn from you for hours and hours and have really enjoyed it and you're a great musician and you have to wear all these different hats but that kind of is the modern musician so I think that people should disabuse or young artists should disabuse themselves of the concept of that you know you're just going to be kind of a stupid person who parties and stuff i mean that's you know that was maybe more true back when I started but uh you know you I think nowadays you really you really you got
• 21:00 - 21:30 to really embrace developing a lot of skills you know most of the guys that I work with can use Photoshop they can do video editing at a pretty high level um I now um do buy I do a lot of ad buying now myself um for started with all my stuff and then I started buying ads for all my my friends who all my friends happen to be pretty popular musicians um and so I end up buying stuff you know ads for them and then lo and behold do I have an ad agency i guess I kind of do on accident but I don't mean to and and it's just I just find that you have to
• 21:30 - 22:00 have you know and this is complicated you know it's uh you know ProTools Logic and Ableton and all those kinds of stuff are highlevel software protools especially you know it's extremely um complex stuff so you really have to become a superer and you have to you have to fall in love with that you know I've met a lot of artists who they see you know I talk a lot about Facebook ads and and I'll talk to them and I'm showing it to them and they're really overwhelmed and and and they're like I
• 22:00 - 22:30 don't know if I can ever learn this i think I might outsource it which some people out it makes sense to outsource of course but uh you know then I they'll mention that they produced their record themselves and they did it inside of ProTools or Logic or Ableton i'm like if you can learn that you can learn how to run Facebook ads if you can learn that you can learn how to run Google ads like these you know I worked as a mechanical engineer for seven years wow and I had to learn how to use like Creo and Solid Works and AutoCAD and all these like
• 22:30 - 23:00 engineering softwares um it's not much harder learning those than it is Logic ProTools Ableton it's kind of the same honestly so a lot of musicians don't give themselves enough credit for what they're capable of and learning an instrument too you you probably spend years decades etc right like practicing and figuring out how to how do I get nail that sweep picking lick or I I can't do this alternate picking thing well let me come up with an exercise and how to practice it and um I think more musicians can can learn how to do this do this stuff
• 23:00 - 23:30 themselves they just have this expectation that they shouldn't have to do it themselves and that's part of the old part of the old thinking yeah and even if even if you don't do it all yourself because there is a very real when you become even a musician at my level i'm not saying this from an ego standpoint um I'm saying it from a I make a living being a musician and there are times where I'm touring for you know 47 days in a row or whatever it is right it's really hard to do other stuff when you're doing that so there's it's
• 23:30 - 24:00 totally legitimate to outsource stuff but don't do it just because you're too lazy to try to kind of learn it yourself in fact learn a lot about it that way when you outsource and you work with people you get a better result it's one of the reasons I learn um Photoshop and and uh and and how to edit uh you know and how to um do all the all the stuff that I have to do that involves content creation like I can I can we direct a lot of our videos we help direct other videos we produce videos we do all sorts of stuff and it's not because I don't
• 24:00 - 24:30 hire people to work with in a lot of cases or even hire other directors and honestly I'm like "Yes thank God." But I do that from a position of knowing what is going on i don't do it from a position of like okay I have no I have no idea how to make this happen you know actually if worse comes to worse and it has many times we'll just pick up the you know we'll pick up the rope and we'll make we'll finish the whole thing and I think that you a lot of modern artists you need to understand that this
• 24:30 - 25:00 medium has largely gone vertical you know we have to be able to think like complete storytellers it's daunting but think of it differently fall in love with storytelling fall in love with creating worlds fall in love with the technology and the tools fall in love with the fact that there is an incredible resource called YouTube for one okay you can watch guys like you by the way which has helped me immensely and there's a lot of other guys that are your you know
• 25:00 - 25:30 probably people that you know and um and then on the audio end there's I mean any one of these digital audio workstations anyone who isn't so up their own ass can just get out of their own way and turn on YouTube i jokingly I have chat GBT and YouTube like are on all the time because every time I run into a problem in the while I'm recording I'm not asking it to write music for me i'm asking h how do you do this thing in the software how do you where is the button to do whatever it is what's the hot key
• 25:30 - 26:00 to do to merge all these tracks because I forgot what it was it's all there it's all there you just got to get your brain working and get it opened up and just ready to constantly drink you know and you do need to I mean a tip that I'd give anyone I'm sure you do this but do you take time to do you schedule time in your week to constantly be learning or do you take the time to kind I don't schedule it but I do take the time in fact a lot of the times uh that ends up
• 26:00 - 26:30 being like my break so to speak like I'll be working on some and you know working is can be kind of a difficult phrase even if you're a creative person working is can often be fun but you know I'll be I'll be I don't know launching an ad campaign or something and then I'll get bored halfway through and then I was like okay let's go jump over to YouTube and there's this thing I'm currently interested in or I currently want to learn about and so that's kind of like my break instead of going and watching watching like I don't know a
• 26:30 - 27:00 cartoon or a show or movie or something my free time a lot of the times is let's learn this little skill set that I've never had before and and sometimes it turns into cool ideas sometimes it turns into products and services and stuff like very in unexpected ways and sometimes it doesn't like I'll go on a tangent like let's learn how to learn a little bit more about how websites are made you know let's learn a little bit about JavaScript and stuff and then you know that indirectly ends up kind of helping when I'm trying to diagnose installing pixels on different platforms and sites I yes yes like knowing to turn
• 27:00 - 27:30 off ad blockers and the different stuff that you have to do to make certain things work and why Safari doesn't work versus uh Chrome and all this kind of stuff and I I talk in front of like my parents and they're like you know did you go to like are you a computer programmer And I'm like well no mom thank you but I I know this sounds crazy but this is like the bare minimum like my daughter is going to be she's going to be fluent in this stuff because you know in this house it's not unusual to know how to build a website and also
• 27:30 - 28:00 record music and be able to play piano and you know be able to understand what kind of like you know shirt fit this is and cut and all the different aspects that go into being able to manage in my opinion any business in a modern digital age where you have every way to commute with pe uh communicate with is right there you know the to promote a show 30 years ago we were printing flyers at Kinkos like handdrawn flyers you know
• 28:00 - 28:30 now I have sometimes six different poster level graphics that I create myself um what is wrong with me per show like on a 36 day tour and here's how that happens because I do what you just said i'll get in and I'll just start kind of messing with Photoshop now I have a bunch of photos bitching photos because we're constantly filling the content bucket right get the bucket and
• 28:30 - 29:00 fill the content bucket up all the time if you're an artist be doing bitching photo shoots even if you've only got $100 $200 budget make friends with people who can shoot you know friendship circles the framework it's what I name my company after is the framework is the c is the circle of people and and and creatives that we rely on to do what we're doing and um you know you you have friends and they'll there's a lot of people that will honestly if you're doing something cool they'll help especially if you're not a dick you know
• 29:00 - 29:30 if you're cool you'd be surprised what you can get when you just make someone dinner like with their own hands it doesn't so for real honestly like um there's this dude that um you know Eric Si shout out to you Eric that he he mixes and masters all my music and I he doesn't charge me anything he doesn't dude because he's just a standup guy um I've run a couple of his ad campaigns for him for free but like he sent a friend of his to my ad agency and we because he's friends with Eric we
• 29:30 - 30:00 charged him like a third of the rate we would charge anyone else because he's a friend of a friend you know and that's those kind of relationships are valuable like is it you know some people are like oh that's the whole industry connections favoritism blah blah blah but like that's that's what you do you make friends you develop connections you help each other out and then you don't do it because you want to save money or do it you do it because you want to be friends with cool people and then it indirectly just kind of benefits everyone yeah and for you it's it's definitely paid off because when I was doing my background
• 30:00 - 30:30 research I found a random YouTube video interviews we've done and and like there's a bunch of people in the comments saying like you know I've I met Ryan at this point decade ago and he is like the sweetest most humble dude I've ever met and I saw it multiple times and so you know again you can't really plan for this but 10 years from now you know if you're an artist now do you want people to be saying "Oh yeah that guy was a [ __ ] prick." or would you rather them say this dude was like awesome he he helped me out when I didn't have to he let us backstage he
• 30:30 - 31:00 gave us this amazing one-of-akind experience um I you know I would imagine you feel you feel pretty good if you look back at those comments and you you're loving on you right and you you might not even remember the interaction you had with them in terms of how you build a fan base like that's a great skill to have is like how do you how can you uh treat as many people awesomely as you can because that's going to help them become super fans long term especially if you're in a position of power
• 31:00 - 31:30 especially when you don't have to you know that's when I think that you really need to um understand that there's a power dynamic and you need to help them like enjoy the interaction and enjoy you know and it it is your your your gift and and in my opinion a little bit of your responsibility if you go to any of the you know like I don't know if you get to brush with the guys in K or Lincoln Park or if anyone was lucky enough to know Chester you know um and
• 31:30 - 32:00 you're going to see like the biggest rock stars in the world that can disarm you with a couple of like sweet you know quips and not totally taking themselves really seriously and that's where I look at that I'm like that you're the real rockstar you know you're and that's why I kind of learned from and was sort of like I guess those are my those are my comrades you know what I mean so I think that that's uh definitely a really really good thing to keep in mind and even the the jiu-jitsu teachers at my
• 32:00 - 32:30 school I train at the Gracie University in Torrance and the Gracies who brought jiu-jitsu modern jiu-jitsu to the United States and created UFC and all this kind of stuff which is this giant culture now it's like it's definitely the zeitgeist now you know with everyone from Joe Rogan to all the big podcasters everyone's jiu-jitsu now there's a reason why well these guys this is the fountain of jiu-jitsu this is the one this is where the jiu-jitsu water comes out and everyone drinks it and um they have all the right in the world to walk around like you don't exist and I can
• 32:30 - 33:00 tell you right now it's the wildest thing i see these guys I like training there because I I love their business i'm so interested in how they're doing what they're doing and I I just shocked i mean someone new will be there and 45 minutes into the thing they'll just be like first name D and talking to them and and getting them to be comfortable with the concept and everything and these guys are like "This is the royalty of jiu-jitsu this is the way this is like they're kind of like the rock stars of jiu-jitsu." And you just can't
• 33:00 - 33:30 believe like you just watch it and it's consistent it's every day it's vertically integrated into their content that like it's all very it's they're here but they're still some somehow approachable but you but you maintain a respect and that is a an incredible line to walk and they do it naturally and those that kind of stuff I mean seek that kind of stuff out and be around it so that you can kind of get some of that on you you know so learn those with
• 33:30 - 34:00 power like the really good People that have power are not using it to hurt other people they're using it to lift other people heck yeah now that was a epic tangent that we just went on and I I loved every second of it actually but um I think we started off with uh what was like the the like revenue like the what are like the biggest like income streams for the band and then some of the best ones and biggest ones i don't remember what point
• 34:00 - 34:30 we branched off but I think we were talking Go go go go so that's in our in our cycle that is leads to the biggest tangent i'll get back down into actual business um I actually operate businesses can you believe it how do we get through a meeting a meeting um for for us Indiegogo would be the big start point but it's all part of this cyclical thing that's constantly going so there's an Indiegogo go-go every like year and a half or so right that we do a new album and then there's always multiple tours in between um we by far probably make the most from touring um
• 34:30 - 35:00 um merch believe it or not for us is and for most bands that I know you got the guarantee which can be great um but merch for us is just it's just bananas you know it's just the biggest thing vip is also a really big thing um the here's an interesting thing about VIP the more you do it the more it actually will get smaller because the more you're touring the more people have done it it becomes less special so you do have to kind of play games with that a little bit sometimes maybe you pull it back sometimes you you know it's a very hard
• 35:00 - 35:30 thing to do it depends on how big you are right we're not big enough that we can't exhaust ourselves sometimes we do have to kind of it might be advantageous for us to pull back here and there um but in general we're touring a couple times a year maybe a total of three months or so a year which for us that's much less than we did when we were this huge band um we would tour almost the entire year but touring is a really really big deal and that's like a lot of money if you're out for a month and you
• 35:30 - 36:00 come back with like a really significant amount of money and we're definitely like mid-level smaller if we're if we're headlining our own stuff it's 300 seat venues it's not that big but yes you can make enough doing that like absolutely you can make enough money um you hear a lot of stories about artists selling out like 5,000 10,000 seat venues which is big and then losing money it's It's shocking to me because I've done that too i've been I've been on that side um and I've also been uh you
• 36:00 - 36:30 know lived that life where we had two tour buses and a diesel and we had more crew than I mean we had like two crew members per band guy you know so it's it's insanity it was like 15 people on the crew bus a diesel that's a driver i mean the expense ratio is insane were we making in the tens of thousands a day of course we were but we were probably spending in the tens of thousands per day um you know and that's back then there lot everything was a lot bigger so we could live off other stuff like our publishing alone and all that kind of stuff was big so um I I get how that can
• 36:30 - 37:00 happen but in this modern day and age it still kind of shocks me and then I see the responses i I saw this one artist respond to someone she was she made this like kind of heartbreaking video about like she's selling out these like places that I'd be stoked to play like theaters you know thousand seat up and I know what I make off of even 300 seaters and it's significant you know it's not millions but it's significant you know
• 37:00 - 37:30 um and I I think I I know what her guarantees are i know what her merch probably is and I'm trying to boil it all down and I see people commenting like "How are you playing these shows and losing money?" And then she's firing back "Well I I pay a livable wage." And all this kind of stuff and I'm like "Okay now we're getting kind of," okay that's cool but this thing it's just like any other business like if you're making $10,000 a night you need to spend $5,000 i mean I would spend even less because I'm at that point in my career where I I you know the way we do things
• 37:30 - 38:00 is very very efficient um but you can still have like crew and pay them okay and all that kind of stuff and not lose money i mean this artist was big enough it's probably 15,000 a night you know is everyone flying first class is everyone I mean I think the the artist recent artist I saw is the same artist you're thinking based on based on how you're portraying it but yeah it's it's like you're right it's it's a business and and a lot of artists fire back saying they don't want
• 38:00 - 38:30 to sacrifice the show like they want to spend all that money to have the best show possible but in my opinion if you can't make the books black you know make them profitable then that means next year you might not be able to have a tour period that person who you employ now you might be paying them really well now and giving them all these extra perks but that might mean they don't have a job next year period or they have to find a different band to be on the crew on so it's like if you don't balance your books you're out of a job and all your employees out of a job but that's a way worse scenario than just
• 38:30 - 39:00 scaling back and giving yourself a long-term career yeah it there's a lot of ways to make this work and I know that a lot of artists if you're used to a tour bus and you're used to like certain things or it could be as simple as um does everyone get their own hotel room every night even if it's not a really nice hotel I can tell you right now that's like even on a small level that's like that can be $600 or $700 a day just for that like if you're staying at kind of crappy hotels even like ever thought about like getting two suites at
• 39:00 - 39:30 an all suites hotel or something like that like I have a bunch of little tricks that we do um where you know some of these rooms sleep six people like really comfortably with a kitchen and everything like there's so many things you can do but I know a band that every every tour they buy like a beaten like a beater bus and like basically they buy a bus every tour by the end of the tour it's just done like it basically is trash but they buy it and then they like scrap the insides and they build like wooden bunk beds in the bus so it's a tour bus but it's like a used old tour
• 39:30 - 40:00 bus and uh they do it because then they don't have to pay for any hotels and they they're buy the cost of the bus is cheaper but then they don't have to utilize one of those like uh companies where you can basically like like hire a driver with a bus so there's companies that like do that now I guess oh yeah that that's how it works because you have to have a CDL driver for that for that bus like someone who's licensed and then with a CDL driver comes all sorts of additional pay and it also comes with you have to get him like by law they have to have a room every night a hotel
• 40:00 - 40:30 room so I mean you can blow this thing out of the water so easy I mean a tour bus situation now is $3,000 a day you know so I I mean you can make a living making $3,000 a day if you play 30 shows that's 90 G's so I mean if you just think like that okay hey you're a small band and you only make three grand a day there are tours that I've done where we've made an average of three grand we made 90 to $100,000 in a month well okay if you have 90 to $100,000 can we do this tour can we actually go out on it
• 40:30 - 41:00 with like one really good crew person or two crew people um can we most nights share like a really nice room like a bit like a suite that sleeps everyone comfortably or two can we the answer is absolutely yes um can we own our own own vehicle you know a nice big Sprinter van or something like that that that is used of course it's all these types of things but can you do this whole thing for 25 grand the answer is yes you can you know 30 days in a hotel can that cost under
• 41:00 - 41:30 $7,000 yeah it can so you have to think like that you know and for us you know I came from that other end i had a tour manager i had a [ __ ] um you know we had an assistant we had every one of us had a guitar tech every there was a drum tech there was a person shooting video there's like a We had a lighting person we had a sound guy we had a monitor guy we had you know so it's like of course like you know I could do press all day one of those people is you know they're they're in the US right so they're
• 41:30 - 42:00 making pretty like a cost yeah and they're they're they're living with you full-time essentially and so you have to pay them fulltime salary for the whole stick and um what one of my clients or I guess like friends at this point rather is um Guitar Tech for like a major like multi-million monthly listener rock band that's been around for that everyone knows and he's brought us out to some of these shows and they they live life pretty lavishly on tour right but they can afford it i'm hoping they can at least like you know you go
• 42:00 - 42:30 to a venue and it's like unlimited drinks for the band and all the invited guests and there's like multiple food trucks where you can just go up and get unlimited food whenever and like there's catering every day with like all you can eat food and that catering company probably cost thousands per day and they fly out their hairdresser because the guy likes how that guy cuts his hair and um you know that's that's what the other end looks like but if you can't actually afford that you're just bankrupting your business yeah honestly and I've lived
• 42:30 - 43:00 that i mean I I mean that's that's actually a little more lavish but I mean we were on those tours yeah and um and orgy was at a point where you know we would roll into cities and the venue we were playing we thought he'd be a big big club and we rolled in and I remember one time the singer was acting crazy and was didn't want to go on stage and all this kind of stuff when we got to the venue the venue was an arena it was sold out and we were like "What the fuck?" We sometimes didn't realize how big it had gotten you know what I
• 43:00 - 43:30 mean it wasn't always like that every night but I'm like "Oh my god we're really brushing with you know this was just the venue that it fit you know and we were like Jesus Christ." So I've definitely done that and I got to tell you that there is a lot about the way we tour now that I like better i actually don't have a tour manager i tour manage um I do the accounting um that means the next day um as we're traveling I'm on my computer and I have I you know I could you know what a miracle I can do a spreadsheet you know like uh you know
• 43:30 - 44:00 dummies can do spreadsheets so you know I just get on YouTube and figure out how to do it and turns out it's really fun for me to put the number in of what we made the night before it's actually really fun and I I feel good and I look at you know I'm booking the hotels I'm doing all this kind of stuff look I know that that's a lot and I know that some people can't handle all these things at once i can i've got a lot of experience but um you know you there well when you're living at a certain when you're playing at a certain
• 44:00 - 44:30 level you you you're going to kind of need to do that if you want to take money home you're going to have to take control of your world and right now I actually really like I have specific places I like to stay and things I like to do and ways I like to do things now I get that all done you know if we're playing in Europe we're doing a really big tour with an awesome band in Europe later on this year you know we're going to fly over there the way that I know how to do it we're going to be using points we're going to fly really nicely we're I'm not going to pay $12,000 for a seat i'm going to pay $1,500 for a business class seat i'm not you know
• 44:30 - 45:00 like and that's only happening because we're doing it with our travel benefits with our no one could do this for us you know you could hire someone and they're gonna spend you know I know because it was just in a band with with my buddy Chester who was used to doing things one way and we were used to doing things our way and we would all be on the same tour and he would spend three times more getting there than than Air and I would because we all have the same allowance right for flying out of the budget or anything like that so um you know he he
• 45:00 - 45:30 would just fund his travel with his own with his Lincoln Park money I guess well we have a budget in our tour like you know like that band you know when we go overseas you know it would be hundreds of thousands of dollars for a few shows you know what I mean that's definitely more of an orgy level situation and especially with him and the band and then the guys from orgy you know we could go do a one-off and it was pretty dang serious I mean I think our burn rate in Paris when we played in Paris it was 10 grand a day you know and that's like a full crew and all that kind of stuff right so you know believe me I was
• 45:30 - 46:00 like let's get the [ __ ] out of Paris you know this is really expensive you let's get everyone home but um you know there there you really see firsthand though you're right you know he's he he goes a certain way and he's kind of used to these things being booked whereas air and I would sit there and book it ourselves and that's when it started happening for us is we started realizing like look we don't need to do we're still part of this thing but I'm going to pocket more money by simply saying hey guys I'm just going to book my own travel like I'll see you there you know everyone knows I'm responsible everyone
• 46:00 - 46:30 knows air is responsible and we really started getting into playing the games with all the travel cards and all that kind of stuff and flying you know I mean I we would be working first class out and all this kind of stuff because hey if you're flying everywhere why not sign up for everything and manage it all and so there you are you're starting to become a business person you're starting to take control well I'm so used to having that control now and I'm so used to utilizing like my my Hilton you know diamond status and all this kind of stuff like I get so much free stuff and
• 46:30 - 47:00 I can I'm at a point now where we have so many points that I know my hotel budget is going to be this number period it's not going to go over because I have enough points to eat the overage and I like doing it every day so I can just eat it so no matter what even if we're staying at Hilton's every night for 40 days I know it's going to be you know it's going to be x amount of money per day every day and it's not going to go over that it's going to be right there so I can build that right in the budget you know so I mean honestly you probably can tell by my attitude this is fun
• 47:00 - 47:30 don't Don't let it be not fun this is all fun we're going camping with our friends that's a good We're going camping with our friends and we get to play in front of people who like our music every day so having this this attitude actually really helps this this might be a weird question but like you know you knew Chester personally like how do you feel about the new Lincoln Park you know that's funny i I just did some interviews about it um I'm a I'm a big
• 47:30 - 48:00 fan um I think Emily's awesome um I think I've been I've been loving it we have tickets to see them in July so we're like we're full on board me and my wife are going to go see them then i think that I think the play was was brilliant in terms of I don't mean it like it's a purposeful play but I think the choice was really smart because having a a a woman come in who's obviously got this she can kind of do that thing inhabit that world but it's obviously not trying to be him it's simply obviously you're singing the the
• 48:00 - 48:30 the old songs but you're allowed to do that you know Allison Chains and um AC/DC and all there's all these great bands Journey and all these different bands where the singer of Snow Table Pilots and um as long as the singer isn't trying to be the other singer they're doing their own stuff too and they have original stuff that's awesome just like Lincoln Park's new songs are awesome they're really good and that's what's really really important so I think when she goes in there and sings the old stuff the way that she does it I think it's I think it flies i think it
• 48:30 - 49:00 works and I actually think that Chester would be soaked i don't think intended for any of this to to go the way it went i can tell you that right now yeah i mean like when I saw the first announcement and when they dro they dropped that new song and they did a live show and everything I was like I was like so giddy right but I was like "Oh that's such a brilliant idea with a female vocalist because it's just way harder to draw the comparison like oh he's she's just trying to sound
• 49:00 - 49:30 replace Chester." Yeah if they found a guy like there were a lot of rumors they were going to grab I forget the the band but there's this guy from No there was that one but there was another um the Saliva singer the current saliva singer there were some rumors that because he's done these Lincoln Park covers that sound like identical oh yeah and he's a phenomenal singer but I think that would have been the whole like um it would have sounded too close it would have been it would have felt like a copy
• 49:30 - 50:00 like a Yeah well they're really smart guys and and I think that they the fact that it took so long I think tells me that I mean I do obviously have a little bit of inside baseball knowledge um they weren't trying to replace anyone they weren't necessarily trying to even do like new Lincoln Park i think that what happened they gave it enough time to just kind of happen and obviously Mike has been making music ever since and um you know they're smart enough too to have kept this really under wraps as
• 50:00 - 50:30 this was developing um which I thought was a really really brilliant move um and and yeah I just um I think it's great honestly just even thinking from like my perspective as being in being a singer guitarist right etc songwriter um if I was in a band which I am and I am in a band but if if if I was thinking about what I want my legacy to be in this band let's say there was some momentum and fans and we were touring and all that like I would much rather my music still being heard after
• 50:30 - 51:00 I'm gone than not and I would love for the the fans to be able to have something absolutely after I'm not around anymore and I I have to imagine most artists would feel the same and I think the people that are saying it are probably not artists they they don't know what it's like to actually create music of their own so they don't know that feeling but it's like a lot of artists in particular do think about the legacy of their music even if they're there are like quote unquote nobody like I've I've
• 51:00 - 51:30 met people who are starting from scratch or have zero fans and immediately from day one they're thinking about I want to upload my music in a way where it's on the internet forever so that it's it's their people can listen to and interact with it forever so I think artists get it i think the a lot of people that are whining and complaining are they they don't create anything they're not a creative individual that makes music and releases it and has that feeling that I think most artists have yeah it would be like when Steve Jobs um died if the Apple had to dissolve
• 51:30 - 52:00 how [ __ ] dumb is that i mean how dumb is that it is the dumbest thing I've ever heard it honestly it's it's one of those like there's a lot of nasty stuff on the internet but that is one of the darkest dumbest comments it's almost so dumb that I feel bad for them i'm just like "Wow." You know you must be in a really deep basement at your uncle's house because this is so dumb have you never met anyone in real life i mean it's just like how can you say this
• 52:00 - 52:30 you know we should all be cheering for them and for everyone that's had to overcome a tragedy and and carry the torch and keep going and create keep creating art and heaven forbid if any of these other people went through something terrible like we did and that was hands down the most terrible thing that I've ever gone through that was my best friend you know it was my brother for 25 [ __ ] years you know that was my bandmate that was my he was my roommate here he was my you know like that's that's a big deal if anyone one of those people saying those kinds of things lost someone to that degree that
• 52:30 - 53:00 they're that entwined with I would if I knew them personally I would be doing everything I could to help them encourage them to carry on the torch you know keep making music keep singing the songs go play go perform get out make new friends find new singers make art make beauty and joy in the world that's our job that's our job um well we've been going for about two hours which is longer than I thought we would i can
• 53:00 - 53:30 probably talk to you for for a week straight but um we'll do a part two yeah there might very well may be a part two so uh is there anything you want to leave the people with we're going to have a bunch of links down below where all y'all can check out Ryan's stuff some various music projects and like other links you have for those music projects and also Framework your label artist services company um where do you most want people to go or reach out to you i mean I I always want people to go check out my music because that's the
• 53:30 - 54:00 thing I care about the most um we have a you know I guess Wow so funny we talked about so much stuff we didn't go through line line item by line item of what our music actual business is i know we tried in the beginning but I did the classic Ryan Shuck start the roller coaster um but uh you know we have a Patreon that has been very successful um even if it's not um you know a thousand people on it you'd be surprised how much we can make and what we accomplish with hundreds of people it's incredible um and um you can
• 54:00 - 54:30 check out our Indiegogo campaigns you'd have to search for a lot of them now because with Indiegogo they don't live in like this like populated form but I have a link to one of those you can check out our last campaign you can see what I mean by gamification and building things in a way that's interesting you can also see a little bit more about what I mean about creating a world just read my pitch it isn't a pitch you've seen anything from any of these bands do we've kind of learned that this drama and channeling Bladeunner and just this
• 54:30 - 55:00 whole vibe that we get with our music really works and our fans read it probably almost tongue and cheek but they get it they're like "Ryan's serious and he's also crazy." And this is like really cool and so um you'll get an idea of what I mean by this sort of like duality that we exist in of being authentic and and connected to our fans but also creating this highlevel world that is fun to be a part of um and that's just like a month you know we did
• 55:00 - 55:30 that in a month we made that we made $20,000 the first five minutes i I mean it's shocking yeah let me actually read you these Wikipedia numbers I found because I'm curious to see if they're actually true um you started an Indiegogo campaign for one of your earlier albums for a double album mhm for 10K you ended up hitting it in one day and you ended up with a total of 28K for chapter 1 and 43K for chapter 2 since then you've done it multiple more times one of which you raised 50K when you only asked for 10K for one of your
• 55:30 - 56:00 albums the next time you did it you only asked for 10K as well you got 41K yeah there's a couple that they're missing but actually um oh speaking of speaking of Oh hi daddy's just finishing up work but I love you this is the other side of uh the other side of Hey I'll see you in a minute okay um but yeah so I mean if you add it all up I mean it's in the it's in the couple hundred thousand of of non-recoupable income directly from our
• 56:00 - 56:30 fans and there's a lot of deep stuff that you can get into how we do what we do and that's kind of how framework was created so framework is a natural extension of what we um sort of have been accidentally doing and that is helping we've just had to now figure out a way to monetize it because what happens is a lot of artists want to have a business like ours and it can get to a point where I start working with so many people that I have to have a pay wall to
• 56:30 - 57:00 control it you know what I mean you have to have some way to kind of have it filter itself so basically we can help with a lot of these things that we do and um we are now getting pretty good at ad buying and doing some of the stuff that you do i'm just don't have a multi-person operation i'm not able to do it at scale really but um we do we do the whole thing you know we will we can we can produce music write music we we release music on our label channel um you can tell that we have from the
• 57:00 - 57:30 streaming world we call it a channel so channel is you know curated stuff goes through it it's called a label and the DSP start to kind of recognize that good stuff is coming through that all the time and that's why it's useful to have a label um and we do things from helping bands figure out how to tour and actually make money doing it um we we do a lot of content like creation we do a lot of production from that and so we just produced a video for one of our our our artists that ended up helping his whole single and everything do really
• 57:30 - 58:00 well i'm talking not 10x probably for this guy probably 50x you know because when people are doing in the thousands of streams and then it gets up into 170,000 that's you know that's that's massive massive growth when you have that goes to that and it turns out that you know like I said in the beginning of this business is a lot more than just these streams it's important to focus on that and make that work but there's a lot of the money and the business of being an artist is all this other stuff and a lot of people Yeah we see a lot of
• 58:00 - 58:30 our friends do Indiegogo campaigns and stuff and they'll do okay they'll make you know 10 or 20 grand um but they just don't know how we're getting into like the you know that one that they said it was 50 something it was and it was like 64,000 it actually the tickers the ticker for some reason stopped counting and Indiegogo wouldn't fix it so um so yeah I mean it's getting it's gotten stupid you know we just really been able to crush it well how you get from like having a lot of fans and you raise like 10 grand versus getting 60 grand or 50 grand there's an ocean of knowledge in
• 58:30 - 59:00 between and um we just kind of find that a lot of people um even artists that are out there that have sold albums and they're now indie they are the ones that have the hardest time figuring this [ __ ] out and we help them out all the time nice well that'll be linked down below so I guess if you want to work Yeah you guys they can do that there and I would also check out their Indiegogo campaigns for inspiration because might be something you can learn from them and then apply to your own you'll see some
• 59:00 - 59:30 collaboration with this guy on there on the last one oh cool cool and I definitely will say like framework the name of our company is based on this concept of like what we do really is this combination this framework of people that we're friends with um we've always looked at Julian K as Amir and I are these producers and songwriters and then we work with a bunch of talented people that really is what Julian Kay is there's three of us that play live but there's like 10 of us that make what we do happen so yeah yeah
• 59:30 - 60:00 that's badass man well thanks so much for coming on the show thanks for having me everyone watching click those links below check out Ryan's projects Julian K etc and we'll see you in the next one thank you