🔍 I Was Wrong About Maven: Why I Regret My Silence on the Mormon Discussions Fallout

Summary

Highlights

• Maven's fearlessness in advocating for women's rights is a testament to her unwavering dedication. 🌟
• The episode sheds light on the nuanced struggles within ex-Mormon communities related to advocacy and freedom of speech. 🗣️
• Personal reflections reveal the complex relationship between media platforms and their creators. 🎙️
• The narrative underscores the importance of addressing systemic issues within community structures to foster genuine change. 🌍
• As Maven paves a new path, her story inspires others to stand firm in their beliefs and continue advocating for justice. ✊

Key Takeaways

• Regret over silence: Sometimes speaking up is essential, as reflecting on past inaction can lead to meaningful change. 🤐
• Maven's bravery: Stepping into the public eye and advocating for women's rights takes immense courage and conviction. 💪
• Complex topics: Exploring controversial subjects like abortion within religious contexts enriches the conversation. 🚀
• Community dynamics: Understanding how internal politics and donor influence can shape content and platform priorities. 🧐
• Support and solidarity: Offering unwavering support to those who dare to challenge established norms is vital. 🤝

Overview

Chapters

• 00:00 - 00:30: Introduction The chapter 'Introduction' begins with the speaker expressing regret for not previously addressing the controversy surrounding the Maven and Mormon discussions. The speaker admits this was a significant oversight, reflecting poorly on their moral judgment. They apologize to Maven for not leveraging their platform to highlight what they viewed as an injustice and an unfortunate situation. The speaker acknowledges their silence on the matter as a point of shame but chooses to address it now, believing it's better late than never. The chapter sets the stage for a deeper exploration of the topic going forward.
• 00:30 - 03:00: Background on Maven The chapter titled 'Background on Maven' discusses Maven's appearance on the Mormon News Roundup before she started the Latter Daily Digest podcast with Gene Judson. It is noted that Maven announced the launch of the podcast during the show. The dialog highlights a conversation where someone asks Maven if she is going to start her own podcast with Jean Judson, to which she confirms and shares her motivation, acknowledging the presence of numerous podcasts already, including those by well-known figures like Bill Real and John Delinda.
• 03:00 - 04:00: Maven's Impact and Contributions The chapter discusses the abundance of content available for people who are leaving or deconstructing their beliefs and how different paths and life situations, such as interfaith marriages, can impact their journey. It stresses the existence of valuable messages even from smaller creators who may not have large audiences. The chapter highlights the importance of discovering and giving attention to content that perfectly aligns with individual needs despite its potential lack of visibility.
• 04:00 - 10:00: Controversial Episodes and Reactions The chapter "Controversial Episodes and Reactions" provides an overview of the varying degrees of faithfulness and perspectives presented by different podcasters. The focus is on connecting audiences with the right podcast that matches their preferences. The narrator humorously notes that several co-hosts have gone on to start their own podcasts after appearing on the Mormon News Roundup, jokingly attributing this to the perceived quality of the show.
• 10:00 - 12:00: The Farewell Episode Controversy The chapter titled 'The Farewell Episode Controversy' discusses a significant episode from the 'Mormon Stories' podcast. The speaker reflects on the revelation of Maven's story, who shares about living out of her van, dealing with food insecurity, and her faith journey. The speaker emphasizes the importance and impact of this particular episode and mentions how they've shared this episode with their wife, underlining its significance.
• 12:00 - 25:00: Maven's Exposé and the Larger Debate The chapter titled 'Maven's Exposé and the Larger Debate' centers around a discussion regarding the silence of women's stories in religious historical narratives, particularly in regards to the Presidents of the Church manuals. The conversation reveals that these narratives often omit the voices and experiences of influential women like Helen Mark Kimble and Lucy Walker. The chapter highlights the discomfort and resistance these women felt towards certain practices and proposals, indicating that their feelings were not just of upset but of being deeply disturbed and sickened. The narrative suggests an ongoing struggle to bring women's perspectives to light in religious discourses.
• 25:00 - 41:30: Community Reaction and Gender Divide The chapter delves into the community's reaction and the evident gender divide within it. It highlights how some apologists selectively interpret religious testimonies, urging people to focus only on the outcomes rather than the coercive circumstances leading to them. A poignant example from Lucy Walker illustrates how Joseph Smith pressured her by claiming his proposals were divinely ordained, implying severe spiritual consequences if she resisted. The narrative criticizes the tendency to overlook such coercion within the community's historical and gender dynamics.
• 41:30 - 43:00: Conclusion and Farewell to Maven In this concluding chapter, the narrator reflects on their experiences within a religious community, particularly focusing on the role of women and their voices within the church. The narrator describes a particular incident where their personal spiritual experiences were dismissed and instead, emphasizes the importance placed on adhering to the consensus within the church hierarchy. The chapter highlights the complexity and challenges faced by women in religious settings, where their voices are often overshadowed by male authority. The narrator's journey from being a compliant member to an outsider gives insight into the struggle for individual expression and recognition within the confines of established religious norms. This chapter serves as a farewell to 'Maven,' marking a transition from conforming to expressing independent thought and identity outside the institutionalized framework.

🔍 I Was Wrong About Maven: Why I Regret My Silence on the Mormon Discussions Fallout Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 I'm honestly embarrassed that I had never made an episode about the Maven and Mormon discussions kurfuffle until now. That was a serious mistake on my part. Really a moral failing. I prioritized the wrong things and I want to sincerely apologize to Maven for not being a better friend and for not using my fledgling platform to shine a light on what I saw as a troubling injustice and a disappointing situation. My silence up until this time was something that I am definitely not proud of. But I guess better late than never, huh? But to back things up just a little bit,
• 00:30 - 01:00 Maven was on the Mormon News Roundup even before she launched Latter Daily Digest with Gene Judson. In fact, in some ways, Maven announced the launch of Latter Daily Digest right here on this show. Corehore, let's cue that up. I heard you were going to start your own podcast with uh Jean Judson. Is that true? What was that going to be all about? Yes, that's something that we're working on. And really, we both realized that there's this there's a lot of podcasts out there. And of course, Bill Real and John Delinda. There's there's a lot of the big names out there that kind
• 01:00 - 01:30 of everybody finds. But there's a lot of us. There's a lot of people with much smaller audiences, but also with very good messages. And people leaving and deconstructing have a lot of different paths to go and different things to figure out. And there's a lot of life situations that really can make a difference if you know if you're married, if you're working with interfaith marriage or not. There's a lot of good content out there. But because there's so much, maybe there's a perfect podcast for somebody out there that just doesn't have the attention that it needs. So, we want to explore that. We want to go across the whole
• 01:30 - 02:00 spectrum, you know, from from faithful to not, and kind of do just little quick overviews of what these podcasters have to offer, who their best audience is. And we're hoping to really kind of, I guess, maybe be the in between of connecting the right audience to the right podcast and and help both ends of the spectrum there. So, that's the idea behind it. Good times. I like to joke that for some reason a few of my co-hosts go on to start their own podcasts right after appearing on the Mormon News Roundup. Probably because they see how bad the show is and figure
• 02:00 - 02:30 that they can do better. And most of them are right. Now, I was the one who discovered Maven. Just kidding. But if you know, you know. But let's go back even further. I listened to Maven's episode on Mormon Stories, which I still think is one of the most important episodes that they've ever released. Maven talks about living out of her van, food insecurity, her faith journey, and so many other things that really opened up my eyes. It's a must listen. Now, I have sent my wife, I think, exactly two episodes of Mormon stories that I wanted
• 02:30 - 03:00 her to listen to, and Mavens was one of them. First of all, the women's stories have been silent that we've had these Presidents of the Church manuals, right? Like they they never bring them up. You really have to go digging to find what they say. And here's the thing, they don't want you to listen to everything they say because so many of these women, Helen Mark Kimble, Lucy Walker, it's clearly there that they're upset. It's not just upset, but they're sickened. They're sickened by these proposals initially. It goes against everything
• 03:00 - 03:30 that they believe in that they think. The thing when apologists want to say like to people like us, they're saying like, "Listen to the women." They don't want you to listen to those parts. They want you to listen to the testimony that they got at the end. They want you to ignore the very clear coercion. I Lucy Walker says like Joseph Smith tells her like look this is God's will like and if you're not going to fall in line like I don't know what to say for you like the door was but the gates of heaven are going to close against you. This is something he says to her but they don't want you to like think they ignore that
• 03:30 - 04:00 part. She had a a spiritual experience so that means it was from God so all the other coercion doesn't matter. this is the part that they want to listen. Or when it's modern stuff, they want you to listen to women in the church who are spouting what the men say. And I was one of those women and now I'm not. And they don't want to listen to me because I'm on the outside now. I've had a man tell me I should listen to women in the church to see how they feel. Even though I'm telling you I am a woman. I was a woman in the church. It's not okay to go against the brethren. It's not okay to
• 04:00 - 04:30 really have your own voice. So listening to them, it could be their real opinion. No one can ever know because that's the only okay opinion to share. I also remember listening to the episode of Mormonism Live where Maven was unmasked. Well, more accurately, I listened to the podcast because it was such a fun and powerful episode. I know firsthand how difficult it can be to step out from an anonymous setting and show your face to the public. For the first year of the Mormon News Roundup, I was audio only because that transition is absolutely
• 04:30 - 05:00 terrifying. And that just speaks to Maven's bravery. That is great. You do so many interesting things and you have done so many interesting things in your relatively to me short life. Thank you. You know, when you have enough time to think about it, like you can really play up almost anything. Um, so yes. Shall we do the big reveal? Shall we? Let's drum roll, please. I have to go in my settings here. Oh, no. Here it is. All right, everybody. Here we go. There she is. Hello.
• 05:00 - 05:30 There's Maven. Oh my goodness. I feel it feels so anticlimatic. No. No. Everybody's loving this. Are you kidding me? Or maybe it's just because I can't hear like a collective gasp from the audience. I don't know if anybody is watching the show that does actually know me in real life, please don't dox me. If you do, I do want to kind of stay maven uh in these spaces. Uh but if you do know me, definitely reach out um so we can connect up again. Uh and I do have uh friends here today. And I did I
• 05:30 - 06:00 dyed my hair purple just for you guys. Just for this. You did? I I've had it I've had it colors before, so it it wasn't too big of a deal. Maven and I also did a deep dive into the LDS church's only anti-abortion film called Very Much Alive on the inaugural episode of Real Talk Mormonism, a 5hour barn burner that's still the longest live episode that I've ever done. Loving parents adopted this precious baby thanks to a young mother who let him be born. But because abortions are occurring,
• 06:00 - 06:30 loving couples who want to adopt babies wait and wait for babies who never seem to. I would like to say that I have been a foster parent to two children. I I know in part what it's like to kind of be like this couple on the screen. Not all the way, but at least a little bit. So yes, there is a difference between adopting babies. There is quite a waiting list for babies versus adolescence, not quite as much. and older children 15 16 17 that's who I was the foster parent for was older children people generally don't want to adopt
• 06:30 - 07:00 those of 15 16 17 year olds they really want a baby to start off with so yes there is a difference in between the two something I know firsthand all this little person need I just want to say like in addition to that just it's not on the coerced or raped teenage girls to provide couples who have fertility issues with their children that's not how this works And that's not how it should work, but I it can work that way. Um I have an aunt and an uncle who have
• 07:00 - 07:30 two children that they adopted before Row versus Wade. So again, it's just this idea that they have to control. There will be women who want to do that and that's great and I think that should be celebrated. Um, again, if that's truly their choice, I think that's amazing and that's wonderful and and it includes people like surrogates because that's basically kind of what they're being are surrogates when they're choosing to go ahead with a pregnancy that they don't want, but they do want to give the baby to somebody else. But that's not the right choice. And again, the choice, they even use that in the
• 07:30 - 08:00 film like she chose to have this baby. Let's let women choose to have babies and choose to have abortions based on what's best for them and the risk that they feel like taking on. Um, I just think it's such a slap in the face to women who do choose to give birth to then turn around and say, "Thank you for making that choice. You absolutely should not have been able to do that and you should have been forced to whether you wanted to or not. So, I actually shouldn't have to be thanking you for the choice at all because you shouldn't have had it in the first place. Mom, you know, birth mom." I just think uh I just
• 08:00 - 08:30 think that's really terrible. And a lot of adoptive parents are not good parents. I there are a lot of stories of adoption kind of trauma uh among parents and children but especially the children and there's plenty uh who've said I should not have been adopted by this couple they should never have been parents and so yeah adopted children can also have just as traumatic and abusive childhoods as natural children um who who also you know who weren't wanted or who had parents that were not ready for
• 08:30 - 09:00 them. So, no, adoption is not the cure all. Even, you know, for if we completely leave out what you're doing to the woman being forced to have that baby against her will, it's still not just an easy option and it's it's not a solution to the problem here. What a show. But very much alive is a vile piece of eldest propaganda where women's choices are vilified and insidious Mormon men attempt to dictate how women should live, act, and reproduce. It's
• 09:00 - 09:30 shameful and I'm proud that Maven and I took the time to expose it for the trash that it is. I even hosted Maven at my home in the guest room when she came to Washington DC to protest at the Supreme Court during the Idaho case Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act. The law requiring hospitals to perform necessary steps to save someone who is actively dying. I wasn't home at that time. I was away on a business trip, but I was honored to support her if even in a small way. My wife took care of Maven for a couple of days and ordered her some Cafe Rio. Maven, I'm still waiting
• 09:30 - 10:00 to get paid back for that entree. By the way, now diving more into the controversy itself. I remember watching Mormonism Live episode 182 entitled Draining the Swamp. Well, to be precise, I rarely watch Mormonism Live in real time. It's just way too long for me. That's one of my minor gripes about the show, but I do try to catch episodes on replay, usually at like, you know, 1.5 or 2x speed. In that episode, Maven was passionate and firm in calling out Jacob Hansen's sexism and doing what she always does, advocating for women's
• 10:00 - 10:30 rights. I personally found nothing objectionable about her approach. So, here, so this was a comment from uh one Jacob Hansen thoughtful faith on a post about that got to keep it easy to kill your babies. After all, it's really hard to have casual sex if you can't kill the baby it sometimes produces. I know this might be a little bit awkward for Jacob. I happen to know. So, I'm not part of Jacob's private Facebook group, but someone who is part of it happened to uh
• 10:30 - 11:00 bring this up, bring up J uh Jacob's stance on abortion. And so, I asked them if they could send me screenshots, and they were able to. So, shout out to this person. So, my answer to Jacob Hansen, uh I didn't actually answer him directly at all. I just copied and pasted the following, which are from his own page. So this is from one a user saying, "Does the church say all abortion is not murder?" And he says, "Where has the church ever said abortion is equal to murder?" So that's Jacob. And then he's answering someone else here. He's copied and pasted. I'll make it bigger here.
• 11:00 - 11:30 This is directly from the church handbook. Abortion is not defined as murder in this context. Okay. Of course, the context being the the exceptions that the church feels like it's okay with. So that's from Jacob right there. So, I thought that was kind of um interesting for him to come on my page and accuse me of wanting to kill babies all just for the sake of casual sex. So, here we go. I think I miffed Jacob a little bit. Got a little upset uh at this um you know at at me I think putting his own words out there. So,
• 11:30 - 12:00 anyway, here's where he goes next. So, go ahead and read it. Oh, sorry. Need to get caught up on where I'm at. So, this is what Jacob says. He says, "Maven, abortion on demand and at any point in pregnancy is insane. I am for common sense gun I mean abortion controls life mother rape incest and then he goes on to say all abortion is wrong sometimes it can be justified which I think is a really contradictory statement Jacob if it's wrong then it's I don't think it's justified so but he goes into that a lot
• 12:00 - 12:30 so it's he goes on to say you are advocating for abortion on demand which we all know is protecting casual sex stop pretending and this is just where it just kind of is a little bit embarrassing for Jacob. But again, you know, I I don't blame him for not immediately knowing who I am and everything about me. Here's an introduction for you, Jacob, and anyone else. Okay, people who know me know I identify as asexual. I know I get accused of being a lesbian a lot, which I don't really see why it's an accusation. It's not a bad thing to be,
• 12:30 - 13:00 but I am not interested in sex, and I never have been. And so, at this point in my life, Jacob, despite me being a heathen atheist, I am a virgin. you have had more sex than I have, judging by the fact that you at least have children, I think three. So, we can say that you've at least had it three times, but probably more. And I just it's just really really ironic to me uh when people like you want to tell me that something is about sex and that the only reason why women can be feel that this
• 13:00 - 13:30 important reproductive rights and bodily autonomy is important is because it's about sex and not actually wanting to be in control of our bodies. I always appreciate Maven's strong moral convictions. So, I was incredibly shocked when just a few weeks later she appeared on ML again to announce her firing. Or was it a resignation? H anyway, knowing that her finances have been pretty tight, I immediately thought about the financial hit that this would mean to her. I was concerned. So, let's talk about that episode just a little
• 13:30 - 14:00 bit more. You know, her sendoff. Frankly, putting Maven at the end of that episode almost as an afterthought was a poor choice. If it had been me hosting the platform, I would have done it completely differently. And here's how I would have sent Maven off. I would have dedicated an entire episode to her. She would have headlined the show. We would have highlighted, I don't know, five or 10 of her favorite moments from her 2 and a half years on the program. It would have been a celebration, a heartfelt outpouring of gratitude from
• 14:00 - 14:30 not only myself, but people in the Latterday Saint community and the ex Mormon world. It would have been lots of laugh, lots of tears, a beautiful time for everyone to share their favorite memories of Maven. The super chats, I imagine, would have been flying in, and I'd make sure that every scent went directly to her. She would have been the centerpiece, the star, the champion of the hour. But folks, that simply didn't happen. Instead, Dan Vogle, you know, a great guy, Mormon historian, but completely unrelated to the situation,
• 14:30 - 15:00 took center stage on that episode during Maven's sendoff episode. he was the headliner. How does that even make sense? And then during Maven's final few minutes that she was allowed to speak, you know, the only time that she was offered, Dan is just kind of sitting there on the Zoom call probably wondering what in the world is going on. Why am I even here right now? Corahor, let's roll a clip of that. All right, folks. Thank you. I'm going to turn some time over to Maven and uh I'll just put you up on the screen, Maven. You can uh take it from there. Thank you. You have
• 15:00 - 15:30 made me who I am today, even down to my new name, Maven, which I love and I I feel like represents the real me more than my legal name at this point. And I will be forever grateful for the opportunity to be on this show. And I'm so grateful for the friendship and mentorship and support that I've gotten from RFM and Bill. And again, the community at large, which is far surpassed, you know, what I could even get from my family, you know, gosh, it
• 15:30 - 16:00 just it touches me so much. You guys have no idea how grateful I am and and always will be. I guess that's really it. Um, I hope that many of you will stay in touch and uh follow my new efforts in this. Um, and I do anticipate that most of you probably will, but again, just with a thank you to everyone. That is my goodbye to you all. I probably will still join the chat here and there. It just kind of depends. The the thing I want you to remember the most is that I love you. And again, thank you. Thank you, Bill. Thank you,
• 16:00 - 16:30 RFM. Right. The YouTuber and me would have at least gone full clickbait for that final show. Why is Maven leaving Mormonism Live? That could have been a springboard for Maven to go deep into her new projects and passions, especially the work that she's doing around women's reproductive rights. But instead, as we learned later from Maven's expose video, she downplayed her reasons for leaving ML in order to try to not offend people. H she swept the real issues of her departure under the rug to avoid, you know, rocking the
• 16:30 - 17:00 boat. And that's an unfortunate reality that many women face in the public sphere. The pressure to leave quietly to avoid being labeled difficult or dramatic. You know, to avoid being branded as a gen camp, for lack of a better term. This situation also brings to mind Cara Burell's exit from Mormon stories. Well, at least in part. I mean, there are a multitude of women who have been told that they make people too uncomfortable or that they are too loud or abrasive and then are shown the door. So, Maven kind of pretended that she was
• 17:00 - 17:30 stepping away from MD to pursue other projects when the truth was she said she's being silenced on moral issues that matter deeply to her. That is highly unfortunate. When we look at the comment section of that particular show, it is really telling. So many people gave Maven outpourings of support, heartfelt appreciation, and love, which which was a lot of women I am noticing. But none of those comments are hearted. But the random story from that episode about Bill's motorcycle, well, it did get a heart. That's embarrassing. Listen
• 17:30 - 18:00 to me. I run a small business with just a couple of employees. And if I had one of them who had worked for me for like 2 and 1/2 years who was moving on, I would have treated them far better than Maven was treated. What made it worse was that Bill felt the need to continue to diminish her voice in her departure by saying that there was some things that he still disagreed with her on. Why? Why? Why did he feel the need to diminish her on the way out the door? Let's also cue that one up. Well, I think, you know, our views might differ a touch. I think me maybe I I agree with
• 18:00 - 18:30 you to a large extent, but not exactly. The only conclusion I can come to is that MD values donors, platform preservation, and money more than free speech, women's equality, or even the dignity of its own employees. Right after that final episode that featured Maven, literally within 5 minutes, I reached out to her. I was outraged. The fact that she was pushed to the end of the episode, almost as an afterthought, spoke volumes. In podcasting, we all know the following. What goes at the end of the show is often treated as what
• 18:30 - 19:00 matters least. You lead with what is important. So, let's not kid ourselves here. MD prioritized Dan Vogle over Maven. They gave him two and a half hours and they gave her just a few minutes. How can this not be read as sexist? It reminds me too much of the broader problem within Mormonism itself where women in general conference get just like, I don't know, 5% of the speaking time. This felt like a lot more of the same. Now, many months went by before Maven released her expose episode, and it was a thunderbolt across
• 19:00 - 19:30 the Mormon blogosphere. I watched every single minute of it, actually more than once. I consider it to be one of the most important podcasts of 2025. And here's a summary of her 5-hour episode in less than 10 minutes. I'm going to give a quick, I promise, quick rundown of my stance on the issue. I think the majority of my audience understands things similarly as myself, okay? But if you won't agree with things I'm about to say, then this is for you because these are it might have gone over your head.
• 19:30 - 20:00 So reproductive rights 101 on the surface it seems to revolve around the idea of elective abortions, right? The ability of a person who is pregnant to choose to end that pregnancy. Do we allow it or do we criminalize it? Is it healthcare or is it murder? Right? That's not what's actually at the center of this issue. It is a it's an important one but it's it's not the center right. This touches like so many aspects of
• 20:00 - 20:30 society and and all women not just pregnant women you know or women who can become pregnant and want to or don't want to like it's all women. This this has farreaching effects. So there's two ideological camps here. Okay. And which one you're in it all comes down to how you answer a single question. Are women human beings or are women objects? That's literally it. That's the heart of this issue. Human rights or states rights. It's it's people or property. Is
• 20:30 - 21:00 it my body my choice or your body my choice? If you think women are human beings and deserve to control their own bodies and make their own life decisions because it benefits both them and society as a whole the most and you recognize that without it women are dehumanized and violated and subjugated and otherwise greatly harmed then you align with the pro-choice movement as I do clearly. But if you view women as
• 21:00 - 21:30 objects to be controlled by others, including politicians for purposes of forced reproduction under the guise of states rights, um, and if you like deliluding yourself that you're really out here saving babies, uh, then you align with the very poorly named pro-life movement who's the only shred of humanity lies in that deceptive label. Both movements claim to promote similar values. like they they'll both claim they're saving lives, protecting women, protecting children, honoring
• 21:30 - 22:00 motherhood and parenthood and families. They both will claim that they interested in in providing the the safest sexual and reproductive health care. All of that like they're so opposed ideology I that's why the real observer like real observations, okay, and results matter over proclamations of belief at the end of the day. Okay? no matter how sincere you are, what are the results and what are the roots of your ideology. So, I am firmly unequivocally
• 22:00 - 22:30 like 100% pro-choice because I value women as people, not property. And this is the movement that accurately reflects that and perpetuates the the values that I I just listed. The so-called pro-life movement, on the other hand, treats women as property. typical for dehumanizing ideologies. Like all the rest of them, it's it's deeply rooted in racism and misogyny. That's supported by
• 22:30 - 23:00 data. It's it's fact, right? And they typically like pro-life movements support systems of high control and abuse all the time. So, a more accurate label would be pro-forced birth or or anti-choice than than pro-life. Okay? They they spend a lot of time loudly proclaiming moral high ground and all while turning a blind eye to the carnage in their wake because they care more about feeling good than the actual results. There's there's so many parallels here with the pro-life
• 23:00 - 23:30 movement and Mormonism. It's just I'll have to do like I think a standalone episode on that. So in the end, just like in Mormonism, their stated claims don't pass scrutiny. So you have to look at behavior and data. So, not to put too fine a point on it, nothing good comes from hateful ideologies. All right? If if they have their basis in vilifying, in dehumanizing, and controlling like entire groups of people, and this one absolutely unequivocally does, nothing good comes from it. Any listeners who
• 23:30 - 24:00 identify as pro-life might find my assertion that they see women as property as offensive. And maybe maybe they would play like, "Hey, I I don't believe women are property. I never said that." But guess what? You don't have to know you view women as objects to still believe it and act that way. Our brains natural wiring makes it really easy to hold contradicting beliefs. It it is a universal human behavior. Like there are literally white supremacists who believe they are not racist. You can find those
• 24:00 - 24:30 in Mormonism too. Religion that's also really really sexist but also adamantly denies that too. So I hope you get what I'm trying to say. I I base my accusations on behavior and results, not claims. I I prefer to approach the movement for what it is, not for what it purports to be. Like one example real quick and then then we'll move on. We'll this this will be good enough for the rest of the episode. Okay. Um something else a proifer. Okay. By insist they might say that we we do see women as
• 24:30 - 25:00 human human beings and we just see them as as equal human beings as whatever is growing inside their uterus. like they're both human beings and and that's pro-life, right? The problem is, I mean, that falls apart on its own, but especially the moment a woman doesn't want whatever's in her uterus. Once the needs of each are completely opposed and and one can only be met at the expense of the other, you're forced into making a definitive choice about that woman.
• 25:00 - 25:30 And that will instantly betray what your real values are. So if you genuinely believe in treating women as human beings, you will view that woman's right to control her own body as a very basic and fundamental human right. Therefore, you will say her decision is hers to make and it is not my business. Nor should it be anyone else's business besides her doctor. Period. Done. Okay, that's the answer. If you go the other route, okay, you are not treating a
• 25:30 - 26:00 woman like a human being. If you want to override her will, take control of her body away from her. Force her through pregnancy and child birth that she doesn't want, that is textbook objectification. That's what you're doing when you try to control other people by by taking away their choices and options, removing their consent, right? disregarding the tremendous pain and suffering that you're just you're willing to heap on another human being and risk their health and their life, forcing them through like a dangerous
• 26:00 - 26:30 medical event. That's objectification. And I know people are going to I'm so tired of people arguing just with facts and just basic fundamental definitions of of what words mean. I just But I I know you're going to do it. I know you're going to do it. You want to use her body as an object, a reproductive tool, because you don't care what it'll cost her as long as you can use her body to serve your purposes. Okay? Right? So, if you're watching this, you're you
• 26:30 - 27:00 think you're pro-life. You think I'm misrepresenting you. I I assure you I am not. You you are either lying to yourself about what you really value or you are ignorantly supporting a movement just diabolically opposed to your real values. I will grant you that I'm not using your messaging. I I will grant that my descriptions are not how you perceive yourself. And I freely admit that the language I use is far from neutral, but that does not mean it's not accurate still and more accurate. I I would say that should be enough to help you understand why I care about this
• 27:00 - 27:30 issue so much and especially so passionately. Now, reactions to her video have certainly been mixed. I know that John Delin was in on the live stream, though he ignored me when I said hello. I am curious to know your thoughts, dear viewers, about it. If you could leave me a comment below, that would be highly appreciated. And then came the Mormonism After Dark episode, which premiered just hours after Maven's tell all episode. And here's the thing, folks. They didn't even mention the controversy. As if pretending it didn't happen would make it all disappear.
• 27:30 - 28:00 That's the fundamental difference between MD and me. When I mess up, whether it's intentional or not, I try to take accountability. I acknowledge harm, and I try to make things right. It was also hard not to notice that Laurel on that episode of Mormonism After Dark received more airtime in that one show than Maven did on her own farewell. That is a bitter irony. And folks, this situation is not going away quietly. When your platform is supposedly built on criticizing harmful institutions and
• 28:00 - 28:30 critiquing the patriarchy, but you can't acknowledge the harm that you yourself may have caused, your moral authority starts to crumble. You can't preach accountability to the LDS church while avoiding it in your own house. Now, people have been making excuses for MDs, saying that the platform needs to avoid political issues in order to keep donations rolling in. I know at least a small bit about that, what it's like to, you know, rely on sponsorships and try to keep donations to a podcast coming in. In the first year or so of the Mormon News Roundup, I was sponsored by
• 28:30 - 29:00 Signature Books. And while I didn't fully realize it at the time, that partnership came with some invisible shackles. There were things I couldn't say, things I couldn't explore, and I eventually released an episode explaining how that sponsorship came to an end. You should definitely check that out if you haven't. Looking back, though, I'm grateful now to be free from any sponsorship because once your livelihood becomes tied to your donations and to donors, those donors inevitably start to exert influence, whether explicitly or implicitly over your content. That's just the reality.
• 29:00 - 29:30 And that's one reason that I rarely ask for donations on this program. I refuse to be beholden to anyone. And see, here's the thing. I always thought that Mormonism Live was supposed to be a show committed to free inquiry, following the evidence where it leads, unafraid to take on difficult or controversial topics. But what Maven has since revealed is that there's an unspoken agenda. That a certain subjects might offend donors, those subjects are to be avoided or just buried. That's not free inquiry. That's filtering the truth through the lens of the almighty dollar.
• 29:30 - 30:00 and that is a disservice to the Mormon discussions community. Now, regarding Maven's point that people are saying that abortion isn't really an issue within Mormonism, I have to strongly disagree. The Church Handbook of Instructions devotes entire sections to abortion, contraception, and adoption. This is not a fringe issue. It's a deeply personal and impactful topic for countless Mormon women and families at large. And as Maven rightly pointed out, it's deeply ironic that the Mormon newscast can cover an abortion topic, but apparently Maven's not allowed to.
• 30:00 - 30:30 That's wrong. Let's be honest. Maven can be passionate, sometimes even abrasive in her delivery, but MD has platform people with equally strong and immovable views. I mean, folks like Quu or Cody Brown come to mind. So, let's not pretend that tone was the real issue here. I know that this is turning into kind of a long episode, but I want to tie this into a problem that I've observed in the, for lack of a better term, the ex Mormon space. Millions of people have deconstructed the LDS church, but they haven't reconstructed anything in its place. They've taken
• 30:30 - 31:00 down the framework of Mormonism, but they're left flailing in a vacuum. And that's why, frankly, you see a lot of ex- Mormon men still supporting people like Donald Trump or holding regressive views on transgender rights or failing to fully understand the importance of reproductive freedom. Let me play a clip of an episode of Nemo the Mormon with Kulch as an example of this. But when you brought up Down syndrome, I was like, why would you abort a kid with Down syndrome? I think you and I have actually had this discussion sort of privately from both our experience working with kids with Down syndrome. I
• 31:00 - 31:30 used to, you know, see a lot of kids in clinic with Down syndrome and I know you've done some work with them. They're the best kids to work with. Like they are the best. They brighten your day up no end when they come into your clinic. So like I know that was the bit that actually hit me the most. It's like who who out there is considering aborting kids with Down syndrome? Not many. There there might be some, but that's that's old. You know, you're going back like 40 50 years to where they were trying to do stuff like that. Yeah. So So maybe if it was the same child, maybe the thing he
• 31:30 - 32:00 was getting at was like the congenital heart problems more than anything or or the heart defect. Um but just that bit there caught me. He seemed at first just to be like, "Okay, this kid's got down syndrome. Do you want to abort it?" I was like, "What? Why would you?" All right, Nemo and Coch from the heart, guys. This really isn't any of your business. It's not something that needs your scrutiny, nor it is an issue that you're entitled to pass judgment on women about, especially when it comes to their reproductive decisions. See, there's this unconscious bias that's at play here, and it's definitely not
• 32:00 - 32:30 harmless. That bias contributes to the harmful perception that women are untrustworthy, incapable of making the right choices, and that they need to be controlled. When you imply that a woman shouldn't be allowed to terminate a pregnancy, especially one involving a child with special needs, you're reinforcing the idea that she shouldn't even have the choice to begin with. If that choice is never available, then the woman never truly has agency over her own body. The underlying message of that clip and many similar conversations
• 32:30 - 33:00 seems to be the following. There's no good reason to abort any baby ever, especially one that might have Down syndrome. But that logic is severely flawed. Saying everyone that I know with Down syndrome is sweet and kind. Therefore, no one should consider termination is literally a non sequator. It oversimplifies a deeply personal and complex issue. And one final note, I believe that Nemo doesn't have children. And if that's true, it feels inappropriate, even condescending, for someone without firsthand experience of parenting to lecture women about what
• 33:00 - 33:30 kinds of children they should or should not bring into this world. Folks, please tell me if I'm wrong in the comments because I know that you will. Now, specifically to Bill Real and Radio Free Mormon and others in this space who are interested in this particular subject, I would sincerely recommend watching one of my favorite programs about reproductive rights. It's called The Line, hosted by Jimmy Snow, formerly known as Mr. Atheist. He's an ex Mormon, by the way, and the guests on that show make powerful moral and philosophical arguments for pro-choice advocacy. If
• 33:30 - 34:00 you're serious about understanding these issues in depth, The Line is a great place to start. Now, I do want to be clear about all this. I believe very strongly in the message that Maven champions. I am as pro-choice as it gets, and it's taken me a long time to get here, but I'm glad that I did. My only regret is not getting to this position any sooner. There are no circumstances under which the government or men should be telling women what to do with their bodies. Bodily autonomy is a fundamental human right. Period. Now, I want to say something more directly to
• 34:00 - 34:30 Maven. As I've said before, I stand in full solidarity with you on nearly every issue. But I also want to gently say that I don't use a person's personal stance on abortion as a litmus test for friendship. We need all kinds of allies, even those who are still struggling or evolving on this issue. Now, speaking just a little bit more broadly, I see deconstruction as a series of bridges. First, a lot of people deconstruct Mormonism. That's one bridge. Then maybe you deconstruct belief in God. That's another. Then maybe Jesus. Each one takes you further into clarity, honesty,
• 34:30 - 35:00 and freedom. I guess I'm a bit of an outlier because uh believe it or not, I actually deconstructed God before I lost faith in the church. But anyway, there there's always another bridge that needs to be crossed. After deconstructing Mormonism, many of us eventually reached the LGBTQ bridge, which I like to think that I've crossed. Then, for me personally, women's equality came next, then access to abortion, and then the transgender bridge. And I'll be honest, I'm still crossing that last one. I'm trying. I'm learning. I haven't fully arrived, but I'm committed to walking that path with sincerity and humility.
• 35:00 - 35:30 That's where I'm at now. I can't speak definitively about where Bill Real and Radio Free Mormon stand. I think they've intentionally kept a lot of their views vague, but from what I can see, it feels like they've only crossed the first bridge, the one where you realize that there's no substance to the truth claims of Mormonism. But what about the rest of the journey? What about all the other bridges? And why not take a stand and let people know where you're at? Donations be damned. See, here's what worries me most about this whole situation. It's going to divide the community. People are going to feel
• 35:30 - 36:00 forced to take sides, but I don't think that that's the right approach. We should value people as individuals, including Maven, Bill, and RFM. We should be able to have healthy disagreements. And if there's anything I've learned in my four years in the space, it's this. Ex Mormonism can look a lot like Mormonism when it comes to disscent. Too often, it's just not tolerated, and it shouldn't be that way. Maven's advocacy looks like it cost her her job and that should trouble all of us. We as a community have to be better
• 36:00 - 36:30 than that. And I sincerely hope that Maven again is not treated like a Jen camp. There's no call for that. Jen made her share of mistakes and hurt a lot of people. But that doesn't justify wave after wave of live streams demonizing her, mocking her, and dunking on her failures. I'm proud to say that I never participated in those. And I hope we don't see a repeat of that behavior with Maven because she doesn't deserve it. And I've noticed something else about MD that I find disconcerting. Once people leave the platform, they rarely come back. I mean, Maven hasn't really been
• 36:30 - 37:00 invited back on since her departure. And when she's popped into the chat, when she watches a program, she often seems to be just ignored or sidelined. But it's just not Maven. Renee Steelman, you know, she became visible. She hasn't been back on since she left MD. Neither has the backyard professor, you know, Carrie Schz nor Ada from Dissonant Daughters. The only exception I can think of is Britt Hartley. And why is that? Why does leaving MD seem to create such hard feelings? It feels uncomfortably similar to how the Mormon
• 37:00 - 37:30 church treats those who leave, ostracized, ignored, ghosted, or even maligned. We have to ask ourselves, how was that any better than the very system that so many of us have left behind? There's a lot more that I could say here about my own personal experiences with Bill Real and RFM, but I'll leave that aside for now. All I can say is that I find Maven's story highly credible. I hold strongly to the mantra that we should believe all women, and I don't want to make this particular episode about me. I want to make it more about Maven. I think the fundamental disagreement between Maven and MD comes
• 37:30 - 38:00 down to the reason for her departure. Bill alleges that it was primarily due to a harsh tone. You know, it was supposedly too striden. while Maven maintains that it was about the topic of abortion, something she argues has everything to do with Mormonism and therefore shouldn't have been controversial in that space. But I'm not convinced that these two positions are mutually exclusive. It's entirely possible that both tone and topic played a role in the breakdown. And honestly, I'm not in a position to say who's ultimately correct here. You know, when other people turned their backs on me
• 38:00 - 38:30 over my perceived or actual missteps, Maven didn't. That meant a great deal. Some people I thought were friends threw me under the bus last year and have left me there. But Maven never did because that's who she is. That's not to say that Maven and I haven't had some frank conversations because we definitely have. But at her core, Maven has a heart of gold and she is definitely a rising star. I've told her before and I will say it to you here again. She needs to start her own show and go live to debate
• 38:30 - 39:00 pro-choice topics, especially against conservative men. That kind of show doesn't really exist on YouTube and there is absolutely a huge market for it. Now, I know that debate really isn't Maven's thing, though she once did a debate with Flip Johnson on Porch Time, which to be honest was kind of cringe on all sides. But if Maven wants to leave behind not just the toxic world of Mormonism, but also the toxic world of some ex Mormon men, that path is wide open to her. That's her road to real autonomy, to personal power, where she doesn't need the approval or the
• 39:00 - 39:30 paychecks of Mormon discussions, Mormon stories, or be beholden to some rich eggheheaded donors. Now, the last thing that I want to cover on this episode is Bill's response to Maven on Facebook on his personal page. What you will simply not find in Bill's Facebook posts is words that are somewhat similar to the following: I'm sorry, or any type of apology. when we harm others, whether intentionally or not. I think that apologies are in order. I've done that on my channel. Dan Mlullen's done it on
• 39:30 - 40:00 his channel. Britt Hartley has done it on hers. It's not about whether our actions are intentional. It's about what can be done to minimize harm caused. Allow me to highlight just a couple of snippets from this situation. First, Bill said the following. I felt the trust in our working relationship begin to erode. It felt like a line was crossed. Not necessarily out of malice, but in a way that made continued collaboration feel unsafe for me. I am generally puzzled by this assertion. How unsafe are we talking about here? Are we talking about lock your car as soon as you get in kind of unsafe or never go
• 40:00 - 40:30 jogging at night without a big dog kind of unsafe? This phrasing seems to suggest that Maven poses some kind of a personal safety risk to Bill. And honestly, I don't know how else to interpret it. Like if I tell someone that I'm not safe in a certain neighborhood, then that means that I worry that bad actors there might intentionally harm me or my loved ones. That feels quite unjustified here and more than a little hyperbolic. We also have Bill's response to Renee Steelman. Instead of taking a consiliatory tone, he leaned into language about needing a
• 40:30 - 41:00 judge, jury, and executioner. Executioner? Like what? And there's a certain irony here. Bill's reaction is highly confrontational and frankly a bit off-putting, especially considering that this exact kind of confrontational tone is what he supposedly is condemning Maven for. Bill said that he terminated Maven because of her inability to be kind to people in the MD sphere. What's good for the goose suddenly isn't good for the gander. And as we're getting closer to wrapping things up, there seems to be an interesting divide in the reactions to Bill's Facebook post, and
• 41:00 - 41:30 it largely falls along gender lines. Men appear to be lining up with Bill while women are often siding with Maven. It feels like this video has cracked open a deeper long simmering rift within the community. But perhaps even more revealing is how the drama seems to map onto ideological fault lines, particularly the divide between pro-life and pro-choice perspectives. Those who are more pro-choice tend to see Maven as being in the right, while those with pro-life leanings are more inclined to support Bill. And to be fair, I'll admit that I might not be immune to that bias
• 41:30 - 42:00 myself. Now, if you made it this far, thanks so much. Please hit the like and subscribe button before you go. And we're definitely wrapping things up here. I just want to say to Maven, I love you. I support you. I'm rooting for you. And I'm wishing you all the best in what comes next. You may be a hot mess, but you are the champion that this world needs and the voice that refuses to stay silent when it matters most. Keep setting fires. Keep raising hell. And never stop being unapologetically you. The world's a better place with your voice in it.
• 42:00 - 42:30 [Music] They spoke when silence ruled the room. Tore the walls they built with gloom. Called out the lies, exposed the cost. For every woman's voice they've lost. They said, "Don't rock the boat. Don't fight." But you lit torches in the night. Your body's yours, your choice,
• 42:30 - 43:00 your voice, not some old prophet's cruel advice. You're not their m, not their sin. You're the storm that rises in the wind. For every girl stilluck, you're the scream they've tried to hide. They cannot hear what you
• 43:00 - 43:30 declare. That justice starts when we all care. From van life days to podcast calls, you broke down temples, smashed the walls. No more shame, no soft goodbyes. Your rage with reason, truth with
• 43:30 - 44:00 fire, exos still standing brave, unapologetically maven, you paved the way. [Music]