Interview with Grant Olson: The Looting of James River Church!

Summary

Highlights

• The James River Church controversy involves a split from the Assemblies of God and doctrinal changes under Pastor John Lindle 🤔.
• Grant Olson's interview reveals control of the church is now with a select few, challenging previous governance structures 🤯.
• Influence from controversial preacher Bill Johnson raises questions about church direction and theological integrity ⚠️.
• Discussions emphasize the need for transparency and accountability in church operations to maintain trust within the congregation 🌐.
• The call to adhere to biblical truths and ensure leadership accountability is highlighted as essential for faith communities 📜.

Key Takeaways

• James River Church has split from the Assemblies of God, sparking debates about its direction 📈.
• Church governance now lacks member input, raising concerns about accountability ⚖️.
• Pastor John Lindle's leadership and the influence of Bill Johnson bring doctrinal controversies into the spotlight 🔍.
• The restructuring of church bylaws and leadership questions reveal issues about transparency and control within mega-churches 🏰.
• The importance of discernment and accountability in religious communities is emphasized throughout the discussion 🔑.

Overview

Chapters

• 00:00 - 00:30: Introduction to James River Church James River Church, located just south of Springfield, Missouri, is highlighted as the largest church in the state and one of the largest mega-churches in the USA. A significant development is its decision to split from the Assemblies of God despite maintaining its current doctrinal stance.
• 00:30 - 01:30: PR Statement and Bill Johnson's Influence The chapter discusses the purported partnership with the Assemblies of God for global missions, which is revealed to be a mere PR statement. The reality is more complex, as John Lindell, the pastor, aligns himself with Bill Johnson’s teachings. Despite criticisms, the chapter acknowledges some positive aspects of Bill Johnson's influence.
• 01:30 - 04:00: False Teachings and Church Heist The chapter discusses a sermon review conducted on Bill Johnson's teachings at James River Church, highlighting the problematic nature of his message. The speaker recommends watching a linked video for a detailed examination of Johnson's false teachings. Emphasizing the importance of this content, the speaker invites new viewers to pay attention to the analysis provided.
• 04:00 - 05:00: Interview with Grant Olsen Begins The chapter titled 'Interview with Grant Olsen Begins' delves into what is considered the greatest church heist in history. This incident unfolded over the last five years and was orchestrated by John Lindle. The chapter features an interview with Grant Olsen, a long-time member of the James River Church, who has been vocal about the false teachings infiltrating the church, particularly through Bill Johnson. Grant expresses his concerns about John Lindle's authoritative control over the church, transforming it into a corporation with no membership or community input.
• 05:00 - 09:00: Background on Grant Olsen's Involvement The chapter provides an overview of Grant Olsen's role in a conflict involving accusations of a 'literal stealing of a church' by a pastor. It encourages readers to visit Grant Olsen's Facebook page for more information to support his case and includes links in the description to assist in understanding the situation further. The narrative sets the stage for an ensuing interview that elaborates on the ongoing scenario.
• 09:00 - 14:00: Structural Changes in Church Governance The chapter focuses on an interview between Steve Gozar and Grant Olsen regarding recent developments in church governance, particularly about James River Church and its associations. The discussion highlights the problematic association with figures like John Lindle and Bill Johnson. Recent events have exacerbated the issues, prompting considerations on how such situations might be better managed or prevented in the future.
• 14:00 - 21:00: Leadership and Bylaw Manipulations The chapter titled 'Leadership and Bylaw Manipulations' focuses on an individual deeply committed to understanding and addressing issues within their religious community. The narrator, who considers themselves a 'concerned Christian,' delves into the impact of leadership and bylaw changes on the congregation. They express a strong connection to the community, noting that many have left the church due to these changes, although some have stayed. The individual's dedication to researching the topic is highlighted by the suggestion that they resemble a private investigator, reflecting their commitment to those still involved in the church.
• 21:00 - 27:00: Consequences of Church Governance Changes This chapter discusses the profound impact of changes in church governance on congregation size. The narrator acknowledges not attending personally but mentions the significant feedback received through messages, indicating that many people have left the church. A year ago, Bill Johnson notably stated that the narrator was a catalyst for about a thousand people leaving, and the numbers now seem to be in the thousands, highlighting the substantial effects these governance changes have had on the community.
• 27:00 - 36:00: Theological Implications and False Teachings This chapter discusses the size and reach of certain churches, focusing on their multiple campuses and large congregations. It highlights one specific instance when the narrator drove past the James River Church, noting its massive size and impressive presence, which left a strong impression.
• 36:00 - 43:00: Reflections on False Teachings and Gospel The chapter reflects on the experiences of growing up near Willow Creek Church in Lake Zurich, Illinois, and observing its transformation from non-existence to a mega church. The narrator compares Willow Creek to James River Church, noting the impressive size and reach of the latter, even recounting visits after moving to Wisconsin.
• 43:00 - 50:00: Steve Gozar and Grant Olsen on Personal Experiences Steve Gozar and Grant Olsen discuss their personal experiences and provide insights on how things have changed over time. They estimate that there has been a 20 to 30% drop-off in certain aspects, though they are not entirely certain of the specifics. The conversation touches on various categories of thought, including false teaching, which is identified as a distinct category often considered in such discussions.

Interview with Grant Olson: The Looting of James River Church! Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 This is James River Church just south of Springfield, Missouri. This is the largest church in the state of Missouri and one of the largest mega churches in the United States. The big story in the news right now about this church is how it has split from the Assemblies of God, whose international headquarters are just up the road a bit in Springfield, Missouri. James River Church Board of Trustees has moved to discontinue its formal denominational affiliation with the Assemblies of God. The church says that it's not changing its doctrine and
• 00:30 - 01:00 will continue to partner with assemblies of God in many ways, including the support of worldwide missions to spread the gospel. The truth of the matter is much more difficult to understand because that was just a PR statement. John Lindell, the pastor of this church, has actually aligned himself with the heretical teachings of Bill Johnson from Bethl Church in Reading, California. To be fair, here's one of the best things that Bill Johnson said at James River Church.
• 01:00 - 01:30 I did a very extensive sermon review of something that Bill Johnson said when he was at James River Church, and it's really bad. So, I will put a link to that in the description of this video. I suggest you watch it if you've never really delved into the false teaching of Bill Johnson before. Hey guys, if you've never watched a video of mine, this would be one to watch because I'm going to walk you through with through what
• 01:30 - 02:00 looks like to be the greatest church heist of all time accomplished by John Lindle over the last 5 years. This is Grant Olsen, who you are about to watch me interview. Grant and his family were members of James River Church for many years, and he's been sounding the alarm about the false teaching that has entered through the friendship with Bill Johnson. But most recently, he is sounding the alarm about how John Lindle has basically taken over this church. It's now a corporation run by him. There is no membership. Nobody has a say in
• 02:00 - 02:30 what goes on. John and his family, his two sons to be specific, will do whatever they want for as long as they want. So before we get started, I want to encourage you to go to Grant Olsen's Facebook page and check out all of the tremendous information that he has compiled to make his case that this is a literal stealing of a church by a so-called pastor. Okay, having said that, let's now begin the interview and I will have links in the description to help you further understand what's going on here so that hopefully, Lord willing,
• 02:30 - 03:00 this sort of thing can be prevented in the future. Hi everybody, this is Steve Gozar. I am doing an interview here with Grant Olsen. Welcome, Grant. Hello. Thanks so much for the time. Yeah, we're going to talk about something. We've interacted over the last year or so about the whole James River Church and John Lindle and the association with Bill Johnson and Bethl and things have taken a turn for the worse in the last week. It's unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah, they have. I think you've been
• 03:00 - 03:30 documenting it. You've actually done a tremendous amount of research. What are you like a private investigator or something? And no, I I consider myself a concerned Christian. A lot of people are affected by in my community and I have a lot of friends and family that have gone to the church. Uh many and many and most have left, but there's still some there of course and I care for those people. They're in my backyard. So, what do you um what do you know about the actual I'm trying to adjust my screen here. What do you know about the size uh the change of the you know, the
• 03:30 - 04:00 congregation size? you know, I I haven't I haven't been to in attendance, so I can only kind of go with off of what has been rumored and and obviously I get a lot of feedback from people through messages and private messages and you know, they've definitely been impacted by the fact that people have left uh you know, Bill Johnson famously uh maybe a year ago said that uh I was an instigator of about a thousand people uh leaving the church. I I think at this point it's many thousands have left. Um,
• 04:00 - 04:30 but I What was What was this when it was at its largest? What was the size? I know, you know. I think they can run anywhere from 15 to 20,000 at their multiple campuses. Yeah. Well, they still don't have as many campuses as hit the bar. No, not as many not as many campuses. Shout out to all those campuses. Shout out uh Pette and I drove by James River Church. We were down in that area about six years ago, I think. Okay. I even I had her take a video as we were driving by. And it really is. Uh it's hard to fathom how big that church
• 04:30 - 05:00 is. You know, when you we grew up actually in Lakes Zurich, Illinois, really close to Willow Creek Church, which was in the neighboring town, and we saw that develop from absolutely nothing to a mega church, you know, in the early part of our um well, we moved moved up to Wisconsin, but we would occasionally go back and visit. And uh I don't think Willow Creek was even as sprawling of a campus as James River Church is. Right. So, if it had maybe 15 or 20,000 at its peak with all of its campuses and everything, we can guess
• 05:00 - 05:30 that today maybe it's something like maybe half that or maybe 60 or 70% of what it used to be. Something like that. Yeah. I mean, they've probably seen 20 to 30% drop off. That that would be my best estimate without without knowing any certainty there. Yeah. Yeah. the um the the stuff that goes through my head in a topic like this. There's there's like uh categories, right? There's a category of false teaching. Yes. And
• 05:30 - 06:00 that's actually a difficult category because there are theological differences that Christians have like between myself as a Lutheran and an Assemblies of God person. There's a lot of really substantial differences. But we don't say these people are, you know, in a cult. We don't say these people are dangerous. We just say, "Boy, there's some differences about how we view the Bible and stuff like that." Mhm. And there is that issue even between the Assemblies of God and other Protestant denominations. But then on top of that, you've got the really specific situation
• 06:00 - 06:30 of John Lindle starting out teaching from what I understand pretty typical Assemblies of God, Pentecostal, Charismatic teaching. Yeah. and then shifting over time which you have also documented. So he's not teaching what he used to teach even though he would never come right out and say hey everybody I'm changing my theology. Well actually he's he has said that he um has a he reserves the right to to uh you know improve and learn. So and I I get that but he uses a
• 06:30 - 07:00 as a as a springboard to then completely 180 on uh ve very basic doctrine. though. Yeah. And they would say it's growing. They would never say I'm veering off towards a more heretical viewpoint. They would say they would say I'm grow growing, you know. And and then and then there's this this category beyond those categories which gets really dark which is actual lying, actual fraud, right? You know, actual theft. Correct. And so we've got all of
• 07:00 - 07:30 those topics. And so I don't want people to think um I guess that if we do talk about fraud and theft, it's like um I think people could see that as it's it's ignoring theological issues because you're going right for this very um sensational sort of a topic. And my preference would be that we didn't have to talk about theft, right? Because it's horrible when it sounds so hyperbolic, right? Yes. Exactly. But the reality
• 07:30 - 08:00 exaggerating Yeah. I think with once we present the evidence, I I think most people can come to a conclusion that man, it sure looks like theft, uh, man, it sure seems like maybe some law enforcement should be involved here. Like, this doesn't seem right. Right. Yeah. And the season we're in with within the church in general, but even more so the charismatic movement, especially people associated with Bill Johnson like Todd White, like Shawn Bolt, right? Like Mike Bickl, the list
• 08:00 - 08:30 goes on. I think this is actually a good time to kind of take this really difficult issue and bring it to the forefront because unless people do what you're doing, take the steps that you're taking, this is just going to keep happening. Yeah. And churches that would otherwise be um you know, safe from this sort of thing, they're they're just going to keep falling into this, right? Um, so I think what I'd like to do is to kind of skip
• 08:30 - 09:00 past the Bethl affiliation, right? Not because it isn't important, but because there's just so many topics. But John Lindell has very clearly veered towards the New Apostolic Reformation, Bethl signs and wonders. You should always be healed all the time, no matter what. And if you don't get healed, it's basically your fault, even though we'll never say it that plainly. That's where he veered. Yeah. And then the issue that's just come up is, "Oh, by the way, we just left the Assemblies of God. No
• 09:00 - 09:30 big deal. Everything's fine. Just trust me. I And I, you know, one of the things that I noticed many years ago was that whoever's got the mic controls the narrative. And in a situation with a mega church, it's pretty much impossible for the general congregation to really know what's going on unless they are somehow getting a peak behind the scenes. You have to really dig because they they can just spin the story however they want. So, you're the guy that said, "Wait a
• 09:30 - 10:00 minute. Something's not right here. May maybe um give us uh I don't want to go all the way to the beginning of this because probably be too long, but what led you to the steps that you've taken in just this past week to uncover what happened with the bylaws and the way they just bypassed the entire constitution of the church? Correct. Well, so basically in the last week, week and a half since the announcement, I think it's been about a week now, um a little over a week that they announced
• 10:00 - 10:30 they're leaving the Assembly of God. I I went back to the bylaws which I was somewhat familiar with um because I knew that they had a meeting back in 2019 and we'll get to that more maybe in more detail, but that meeting um changed the way that the church leadership is decided and and basically removed this ability for the church members to have a say or a vote. Um, and how that was done is pretty I mean I I'll I'll detail that here like I said in a few, but all of
• 10:30 - 11:00 that then led to this new structuring of these bylaws that um allowed for this leaving of the Assemblies of God with technically um not violating the original bylaws. And um I don't I don't know how that's the the legality of that. I don't know how that really structure-wise. I think some people are concerned about how that was pulled off. It was I mean it's it looks to be unethical at best. Um and so I think uh walking you through um those
• 11:00 - 11:30 those steps is is going to be pretty clear to the people watching that man he's got a at very best John's got a lot of questions he needs to answer a lot and I don't know how you answer them without giving some sort of intentionality that everybody's going really wow. So yeah, and I I know based on everything that's happened to this point, the guy with the mic doesn't have to answer the questions. He doesn't have to. The only reason that he would be
• 11:30 - 12:00 forced to answer questions is if the congregation as a whole said to him, "Look, buddy, we're done with this. If you don't tell us the honest answers, if you don't answer this list of questions we have for you, we're out." That's what it would take. But he knows that every week you get on stage. Yeah. You can do whatever you need to do because it's so important the work that God is doing here. You know, the people are coming against us. But that's what they did to Jesus. You use emotion. You
• 12:00 - 12:30 use drama. You paint a picture. And that's probably what he'll continue doing unless the people there stand up and say, "We're Yeah, we're not we're not buying this pal." Yeah. You've been doing this for too long. you stole this church from us and we don't want you to do this anymore. We want it back. That's That's what has to happen. Honestly, it probably won't, but man, wouldn't it be amazing if that did It would be amazing if the church members could do that. It would also be amazing if the Assemblies of God um uh would would have some backbone in this matter. Um you know,
• 12:30 - 13:00 they're the ones that required this the initial bylaws. So, I'll share them with you so you can maybe put them into this uh conversation. But the original bylaws have uh two clauses in them. One of them is article 4 and one of them is article 9. I consider article 4 to be kind of like the door shut on leaving the Assembly of God. And so that was copied and paste I believe from the Assembly of God bylaws into um the James River
• 13:00 - 13:30 Church bylaws when they were in you know at inception probably I think it was like 1998 or so something like that. So these bylaws say that if you want to disaffiliate with the assembly of God. So article 4 says if you want to disaffiliate with the assembly of God, you need to notify the assemblies of God and then bring in those people that are in leadership with the assembly of God assemblies of God to present to the church reasons to not disaffiliate. And then the church has a vote, right? Do we disaffiliate or not?
• 13:30 - 14:00 Those who don't want to disaffiliate get to keep the assets of the church. So the way it reads is literally one person can be like, "Hey, I'm not leaving the Assemblies of God, right? That person would get the whole church and then get to continue operating it, appoint a pastor, right? And continue operating that church as an Assembly of God church." The other option would be they all are in uni unanimous, right? They're all into lock step and they say, you know, 100% of us are wanting to leave the Assemblies of God. If that's the
• 14:00 - 14:30 case, then according to article four, they have to liquidate. So they have to give it all to the Assembly of God and the Assembly of God would liquidate the assets. So that that article four is like you're not leaving the Assembly Assemblies of God. And it makes sense, right, Stephen? If we think about this, like if you're going to build your church based off of our denomination or our structure, because people come to you knowing you have this accountability structure and at least this agreement on doctrine, then you can't just take that
• 14:30 - 15:00 church after 10, 15 years and go make it whatever you want, right? So, article 4 is a very reasonable article. And like I said, every Assemblies of God church, I presume, has that article in it at at inception. Then you have article nine. Article 9 is the lock and key. Like it is it's a deadlock on that door. And what does it say? It says if you want to change article 4, you need 100% of the congregation. All voting members, sorry, not congregation,
• 15:00 - 15:30 voting members. They have to be members. But all voting members have to be in unison to make any cha any change to article 4. So that's your door. There's your lock. you're not leaving the Assemblies of God with these in place. And that's all based off of church membership. So, um, you know, I'm I'm presuming so I I like I said, I don't know the intention of John Lindle fully because he hasn't told me all of his intention, but it looks pretty nefarious. And here's why. So, J So, in
• 15:30 - 16:00 June 2019, June 19th, 2019, he has a meeting and it's a special business meeting. And uh before that, you're supposed to notify the church 2 weeks in advance on on a two Sundays in advance or 5 days in advance by mail. That's all in the bylaws. Everybody I've talked to that's been church members, they don't rec they don't recollect ever getting notification multiple days in advance. Maybe a few few days, but not two weeks and not five days by mail. Okay. So, and
• 16:00 - 16:30 it's supposed to tell you what this vote is about. So, they show up for this Wednesday night vote. Those are who stay after church. It's at 7:44. All the notes are there and you can share that with the audience. But the the vote happens and um they're voting on three different resolutions. The first one is to change out of um a it's a special oh 352 um nonforprofit to a 355. Fairly inconsequential, but supposedly some sort of restructuring of the
• 16:30 - 17:00 nonfor-profit. Resolution two is to change the constitution to be amended. instead of twothirds of the church members to the board theord board of trustees right the board of trustes that is chosen by the church members. Okay. So then resolution three is to restructure how the bylaws are voted on and it was a majority of the church membership now being transferred to this board of trustees. So now you're having this authority for the constitution and the bylaws being transferred to the
• 17:00 - 17:30 board of trustees rather than the church members voting. Why would you do that? Well, what what happened is that night, Jean and a number of other uh I believe plants, people that he communicated in advance to communicate this to the church. After I've talked to a number of people now, what went down is it was sold to the church members that the church was growing, right? Needed to be more agile administratively. It needed to be able to act quicker to acquire property and adjust the bylaws and the
• 17:30 - 18:00 constitution. So, we need our board of directors, our board of uh board of trustees that are chosen by the church members to have a little bit more authority to act more efficiently. That's what it was sold as. It was a tough cell and eventually the church members were convinced, not a unanimous, but they were they voted in favor of that decision. Here's the kicker, Stephen. This is the kicker. None of these people thought
• 18:00 - 18:30 what they were doing is giving up their ability to vote at all. And that's the ruse. So within one year, this new board of trustees with this new authority, I shouldn't say new board, right? Originally they were chosen by the church and now they are have this authority to rewrite bylaws and constitution. What do they do with this constitution bylaws? all of those protections that were in it scrapped every one of them. So they
• 18:30 - 19:00 got rid of church membership completely and they filed that in October 22 of uh 2020. So October 22nd of 2020 it removed church membership and uh John Lindle was named the chairman of the board for choosing the board. So that is the the deal. None of these church members knew that their vote to to give a little additional authority to help the church,
• 19:00 - 19:30 that's what they were told they were doing. They were essentially relinquishing all of their voting rights and now there's no longer any members. So that that's that's that bait and switch, Stephen, is what's got me so fired up because yeah, it it's such a backhanded way to take full control of a church and put it in the hands of one man and remove it from all of these voting members that existed and they didn't even know that's what they were voting for,
• 19:30 - 20:00 right? Um, let me understand or let me try to understand. The board of trustees, you said originally was chosen by the members. My dad actually was on the board of trustees back in the day. So, I'm pretty familiar with they had to be nominated and then voted and then they so there was accountability there and the church knew who they were. Now, the church does not know who these these three members are. I had to go find it on the Missouri Secretary of State website. Okay. So, this is the question. In a in an ideal situation, it sounds like kind
• 20:00 - 20:30 of a representative government like the US. We we give our representatives the ability to represent us. That's what they sold it as. How did it change from them being chosen by the membership to becoming trustees that are autonomous from worse than that? These trustees aren't just autonomous from the membership. They're chosen by a dictator. Right. So, are they even part of the church? Are they from congregation or congregation? John chooses them. The the
• 20:30 - 21:00 chairman of the board chooses them. Did he choose them after the chose he chose them after they restructured their bylaws? And it get it gets worse. Okay, it gets worse. So, I don't know if you saw the other video I posted about this this vote coming up to leave the Assemblies of God. So, John goes to the the multiple church board members. There's three of them. And one of them is a hold out. Well, John doesn't he doesn't want
• 21:00 - 21:30 a hold out. He wants to be able to tell the whole church that this is a unanimous decision and we're all in unity on this one. Yeah. So, what did he do? How did he get rid of it? I don't know the specific details because I didn't want to pry um and I don't want to give up any source, but the reality is I know that the the man resigned because he disagreed with the decision. So, I know that much. He disagreed with the decision so much he resigned. Now whether or not John said you're gone or he goes I can't be I can't go down this path with you. I
• 21:30 - 22:00 don't know which one was which and I don't think it's really super consequential cuz he would have been pushed out likely anyways if he wanted to stay around. Right? If you if you were in that position, maybe with good intentions, and then you get this deep into it and you find out, oh no, this guy is trying to be king of the church, and I have to either go along with him or I'll be continually fighting with him. And you ready for you ready for the middle ground of all this? So, in between this 2019 and and just last
• 22:00 - 22:30 week, John appointed his two sons as successors to to pastoring the church. So that's also not how church that's not how the bylaws read in advance. You would have church members and they would vote on that. So that was scrapped and now John Lindle picked his son uh David Lindle and Brandon Lindle to take over the church. Now would the church have chosen them? Maybe. But there was no
• 22:30 - 23:00 there was no option given and no vote made. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One of the things that I know that uh years ago we went to a charismatic church here in Madison and it was not part of the Assemblies of God. It was part of the Fellowship of Christian Assemblies which is similar but a little bit less um restricted by the denomination because it's not a denomination, it's a fellowship. But the idea was always presented to us
• 23:00 - 23:30 that, you know, we don't want you guys to get so involved in all these intricate businessy sorts of things. You don't need to come to all these meetings. Just trust us. We can be more efficient. We can get things done if you just let us do stuff, you know, behind the scenes. We're we're going to do what's right. You can just trust us. And and I don't know in this situation with my church if they really meant that. There's no way to know unless you're, you know, like close personal friends with the pastor. You just have to trust him. But in this situation, it looks
• 23:30 - 24:00 like they use that same sort of reasoning and then they just yanked the church away from the membership. So that So from what I understand you're saying right now, there is no membership. No membership. No membership. The the church has no members. That's all that's all the article. Uh you you'll you'll put it in here, but you can put it in before where I said that, but it says uh church chairman of the board is John Lindle and the church will have no members. And they could have easily So here's here's
• 24:00 - 24:30 a little issue with intentionality, right? What was the intention? Well, I think the intention was to leave the Assemblies of God. And why is that? You could have easily copied article 4 from the original bylaws and article 9 from the original bylaws. So if you submit new bylaws and you just omit these two articles that protect the church as an Assemblies of God church, if you omitted them, it means you may want down the road want to get
• 24:30 - 25:00 out of the Assemblies of God because you remove those protections. And another factor too that I want you to know is before 2019, financials were presented to the church. So that's another issue now, right? They're not presenting financial presenting any financials. Oh yeah, that's not a good sign, right? And so you're seeing this, you know, and it's kind of like the frog in boiling water. It's a step step at a time. It's a little hotter and then now the the the fire is on and you look back and I think
• 25:00 - 25:30 that's why the I had these aha moments over this past few days is I'm going, man, now that I see the final play, he's fully in charge of all the assets. He now has left any accountability from the assemblies of God. Um, he makes all the decisions going forward. He's handing it over to his family, his kids. They can write checks to themselves however they want and anywhere they want. No, no real no real structure. If somebody on this board has an issue with it, bye-bye.
• 25:30 - 26:00 Right. I mean, so um you it's it's just and and they don't even publish who these board members are. I maybe said that earlier, but so if you want to know who these board members are, you got to be a little detective and go to Missouri Secretary of State and scroll down, click on the links, try to find who who's filing for that. And so, um, you could do that, I guess, as the church, but no one really, if you asked anybody at James River Church, they would not be able to tell you the the board members at all. And if you if you
• 26:00 - 26:30 um I don't want to sound too harsh against individual Christians because everybody's at a different place, you know, maybe they didn't learn a lot of things and they've been manipulated to such an extent that they they just can't think clearly anymore. But why would you go to a church? It's not a church, right, Stephen? Why? Yeah. Right. It's literally I don't know how you I mean we've been saying this for a long time about megaurches. It's a big show. It's entertainment. It's an organization, you
• 26:30 - 27:00 know, it's a money-m. This is the Bible doesn't give us a church anymore cut uh organizational structure, but it does clearly repeatedly say we need a plurality of elders. Right? This is not a difficult concept. when you remove any sort of accountability. You know, I'm a I'm I own my own business. I have accountability I've set up for myself because I know I need accountability from my wife, from other leaders in our business. You you would you would be
• 27:00 - 27:30 silly to not have good accountability to keep things from becoming corrupt. Good men make bad decisions when there's no accountability. And God, it's like we try to outsmart God. Think about this. It's like it's like this whole move to then take church membership, the board being responsible to the church members by being voted on by the church members, which is a great structure because now you've got this plurality of elders that are responsible to listen and adhere to what the church wants. Uh and and you
• 27:30 - 28:00 know, you just have this good flow. Now you just have one man at the top making all the decisions and you have a dictatorship making all the money. I mean, uh, that's another thing that we can clearly see from the Bible that you don't become a pastor in order to make yourself rich. No, it's so obvious. It's the opposite of that. You're a servant of the people. And I I keep I I keep going back to the idea that in order for this to work, you have to be manipulative. You have to use the power
• 28:00 - 28:30 of manipulation on a ongoing basis and you have to build on manipulative tactics over and over and over again. And you cannot face criticism with any level of honesty or transparency. You can't. It doesn't work. You have to continually paint your your uh opponents as Pharisees, as negative. You don't have the Holy Spirit. I've been told I'm obsessed because I won't just walk away from it. Right. And I've been pretty vocal about it. Um, you know, it's just it's crazy
• 28:30 - 29:00 because you know, if if what did my wife say? Evil survives in silence. So when when good men don't speak up, that's how we get our churches in the messes they're in. And I really wish um you know, like as I mentioned before I jumped on here with you, like what's the purpose of me being vocal now? Well, I probably can't change what happens at James River Church. That may have already been a foregone conclusion, but man, you know, any anybody listening,
• 29:00 - 29:30 going to any church out in the any anywhere in the world, don't let any pastor or leader in your church convince you to give up your ability to influence your your church's leadership. Uh you should have access to the elders. You should be able to at least know who they are, preferably vote for them if you can. Uh, so that way they're selected, but that way you really have a I mean I I think I've had some people mention to me that like um MacArthur I think his
• 29:30 - 30:00 church graced uh Grace Church, right? Has like Well, grace to you is the ministry. The church is going Yeah. But it's got like four like 30 or 40 elders. I mean, and they won't make any decision unless it's 100% unison. I mean, it's that's how much accountability they want to to moving in the right direction together. It's, you know, I'm not saying you got to be that maybe stringent, but man, it it it helps protect um the bride of Christ.
• 30:00 - 30:30 Yeah. Yeah. The the use of uh what I like to call thoughtpro. It's it's everywhere. It's all they got. Yeah. You twist the Bible. You uh make people feel guilty. You use that Darvo technique. You're familiar with that that um uh deflect. I get the ad homonym attack all the time, which is, you know, you're just a you're just a jerk. Just just an angry
• 30:30 - 31:00 you're you're per you know, personal attacking somebody. And you don't none of what you say has to be personally attacked. it can just be substantiated with evidence and and you're really just saying, "Hey, from what it looks like, this guy is not just lied multiple times, but now he's pretty much a liar." I mean, when you when you lie repeatedly and you're unrepentant in it, that's that's a liar. when somebody is teaching a false gospel repeatedly will not correct it. Like I think there was an article I read was very good about how do you define false
• 31:00 - 31:30 teachers and it was basically like we can all be an error of course but error that affects the gospel okay that's that's serious is but are you still correctable if you're correctable and people go hey that was wrong and you're like yeah that was wrong I see that but John has been uncorrectable he's been unrepentant and so we have a liar we have a false teacher and and with this latest uh issue we have some really big questions that look like a lot of
• 31:30 - 32:00 deception was happening and a lot of people were dis I I come to the word disenfranchised. I know that might seem a little bit like um I don't know just regular uh world conversation but I would think of this as an American voter. You said earlier if I voted for senators and then they go in and the first thing they do is remove my voting rights I am disenfranchised. I am upset and probably going to a different country, you know, you know, and I think um psychologically it's really hard for people to admit that they're part of
• 32:00 - 32:30 something that's turned horribly wrong and the leader that they put all their trust into is actually not being truthful with them. It's so hard in fact that they will they will ignore all the evidence because they don't want to feel that uncomfortable feeling of gosh, I'm I'm kind of in a cult now. Yeah, I've been mistreated to such an extent and I've been here for 20 years and I've told everybody how great this place is and now I I I would have to go back on all of that and admit I was wrong and admit that I was part of something and I
• 32:30 - 33:00 got tricked. I don't want to do that. I'm just going to stay here and I'm going to keep defending this thing even though I have to push back a lot of things. Two sides of this coin, right? They're both painful. One is the one is in in the cult. They have to constantly defend against they have to like shut off their eyes. It's it's a it's a really weird way to live life. So, they have to like anybody who has any sensible care for them to try to show them the evidence. They just they don't they're like, I'm just not looking at it. And then the other side of it is you have to you have to go and heal from
• 33:00 - 33:30 this, right? It's it's tough. You got to leave your your church you've been going to maybe for a long time. You got to make new friends. You got to find a new place of worship. You got to reconstruct some of the things you've been taught incorrectly. um you feel duped, right? It's just a it's not a good feeling. So, I sympathize uh with with both sides. I'm just pleading with those that are still, you know, with the scales down that I I don't think I can somehow make them change their mind. I do think I can keep just like you have been for for me. Uh
• 33:30 - 34:00 you and Paula have been such a a a good source for my wife and I to uh you know when when the Holy Spirit opens our eyes and you see just a crack in the wall and I've witnessed this firsthand close up with people. They see one little crack in the wall and they're good people. They're Christians, right? They're they're Christ followers. They they've been they've been kind of deceived for a while, but they see that little crack and all of a sudden they'll peer through it and they're like, "Oh my." And they just in their expansion they find channels like yours. they may maybe land
• 34:00 - 34:30 on more like mine and they and they learn about Bethl and Bill Johnson and they just go down the rabbit hole, right, over the course of a few months and they finally go get the courage and confidence and you know affirmation to go I need to leave this and so um God bless you for your efforts and I know you uh you know maybe don't you get a lot you hear all the probably all the frustrating stuff and people push back. I want you to know from us that uh we're we're grateful for what you do and uh honestly we my wife and I feel a little bit of a calling to you know we're not
• 34:30 - 35:00 going to quit our I think you you and Paulette do both your both our fulltime she's she's the one that actually has the full-time job. If it wasn't for her I would be in trouble because I do make almost a full-time income now between our Patreons or our patrons on our Patreon page. We have people who are supporting us which is amazing and then I do get ad revenue. It's it's it's not like a good living. Like, you know, I can rest comfortably. She still has to work. She, you know, covers the insurance. But thankfully, by the grace of God, I'm actually able to do it
• 35:00 - 35:30 pretty much full-time. I'm working on a commission painting now. And so, that's super helpful. Whenever I make extra money for my art, which used to be my real job, I'll never give it up completely, and I'll still do projects, but I'm actually in this uh interesting place right now where I get to make content that helps people. and your story and so many people like you is um my goal with the channel is not to convince everybody who loves Bill Johnson that they should no longer love Bill Johnson because that that's frankly
• 35:30 - 36:00 impossible. It's for all the people who are like, you know, I've been hearing about Bill Johnson and my pastor brought him up and he said that he recommended him and then I listened to him and something seems wrong with this guy and I I can't exactly figure it out cuz I like my pastor. I like my church and I and I normally trust him, right? But there's something off here. I want them to find my channel and I'm the guy that says, "No, you're not crazy. Your pastor's wrong. Bill Johnson's wrong." And all those feelings that you had in the back
• 36:00 - 36:30 of your mind, that's how the Holy Spirit's working in your life right now. He's saying correct. And when you talked about that crack in the door that people have, my hope is that they don't close the door and pretend that they didn't see what they saw. Cuz I think that's and that's what John Lindle is really really good at doing. He's good at coming up with little catchphrases and sayings and stories to make those people slam the door shut so that they go, "Oh, okay. I'm I'm good. John John's a good guy. Everything's okay. He didn't really
• 36:30 - 37:00 steal the church. He went he went so far to call discernment uh unbelief. You know what discernment is? It's really just unbelief. You think you're just a little more wise. Got it all figured out. I used that clip in a video. I think it was about a year ago because that's what you have to do when you're manipulating large numbers of people. Darvo, it is an abusive tactic where the abuser uses deny, attack, and reverse victim and offender to deflect accountability
• 37:00 - 37:30 and silence the victim. So D A R V O deny attack and then reverse victim and offender. Reverse victim. So all of a sudden Grant Olsen now is the bad guy. And how dare how dare you come against what God is doing? Don't you understand what God is doing here? You mean like the fake growing of toes that aren't actually growing? Is that what that's what we're supposed to be protecting? The the fake miracles. Stephen, did you see the one I pointed out that my I I hate to say it's not my favorite because
• 37:30 - 38:00 I don't want to I don't like any fake miracles, but the one that I'm just like so what in the world was Brandon and David two weeks in a row get up on stage and claim that a woman that was m uh been wheelchair bound for 27 years from MS is now out of her wheelchair and I didn't hear that. Yeah, they claim it two weeks in a row. And then you could tell the church didn't even respond really to when Brandon said it. And I'm just thinking to myself, people like you
• 38:00 - 38:30 and me that are that are not, you know, hoodwinkedked by their uh deception, you go, well, if that's true, why isn't everybody like standing up and clapping and why is this person on this stage like this? I mean, you just said somebody hadn't walked for 27 years, needed a wheelchair every morning, every night, they couldn't get out of their own bed, on their own feet. They had to use a wheels. Like, come on. It it just is so laughable to say that and and
• 38:30 - 39:00 people not go, "Well, where why aren't they on this stage? Why can't we see this?" Like, well, you know what? It makes no sense. the video that I made last year that has some of John Lindle and the the crazy story about the woman who claimed her toes grew. They said it it happened. We've got the footage. It's real. I saw it. I talked to people who saw it or whatever. And then everybody's going, "Um, yeah, but we don't have any evidence. You haven't shown us anything." And he says, "Well, if you have to see the evidence, you wouldn't
• 39:00 - 39:30 believe anyway." Yeah. Yeah. Did you see the video I did with the the Facebook pro post and all that? in my video if I remember. Right. Yeah. That basically there was a Facebook thread that had her and and another guy who didn't believe it and he went back and found her old photo of her foot, compared it to the new photo. Yeah. Yeah. So, and what's really sad about that one, Stephen, is I've had a few
• 39:30 - 40:00 people that are high school friends with her reach out to me. She lives about 70 mi uh uh west of here. And uh they reached out to me and said that she's had a so many like difficult things in her life, a pretty rough life. And this was a this was a great example of how she was spiritually abused. She was manipulated into this. They should have just said they should have checked her out and been like, "Okay, this isn't verifiable, hun." you know, uh, but instead they they elevated this person,
• 40:00 - 40:30 made it made it a story to to really pat themselves on the back that they had this because Bill Johnson's the one who made the claim, we're going to have um what do you call it? Generative or regenerative creative creative miracles. So, he'd set the tone or standard that we're going to actually have legs or limbs grow back. Here's a recent video of John Lindell preaching and you'll notice that he's actually missing part of his pinky and nobody bothered to heal that. I find that very interesting for a guy
• 40:30 - 41:00 that talks about how healing is the norm. John Lindell and his buddies Randy Clark and Bill Johnson claim to have healings all the time. Listen to what Bill Johnson says about people who claim that healing is for today, but they don't actually demonstrate that healings are for today. I'd like to suggest to you that if everyone believed miracles were for today, actually could demonstrate them, there would no longer be a group of people that didn't believe they were for today. It's the living witness of having
• 41:00 - 41:30 a theology that we can't demonstrate that speaks against us. And so the toes were the fulfillment of this prophecy, if you will. And it just was it was a total joke, total lie. The church knows that. I don't know of anybody in the leadership that believes it, but I think about three or four months ago, John stood up there and said it again. I mean, it's it's one of those things. It's just he's got to keep running with it. And um it's crazy. The thing that I if you believe in a leader and you know for for sure because you've
• 41:30 - 42:00 seen it with your own eyes, you know for sure that he has lied intentionally at least one time. Yeah. If you if you think that's okay because of whatever reason, you know, like, oh, this this movement is so important, this church is so important, this ministry is so important, that it's okay that he lied that one time, you you're done. This is your your faith is now a total joke. Your church is a joke. Your whole movement is is not a real Christian movement anymore. It's it's at best a
• 42:00 - 42:30 very um very confused version of Christianity, but I would say it's more like a cult than anything else. It's more like group think. Well, it it it has a slippery slope because at that point, I mean, that's one overt obvious lie. We're not talking about something that's really debatable. Um, but then you've got him doing like the one another one that's super it's easy to prove and he claims Mark Driscoll never apologized for what he did on stage.
• 42:30 - 43:00 Regardless of what you think about Mark Driscoll, this is not the debate. I've had people like, well, I don't like Mark, I'm not trying to even make that game. I don't want to get in that debate. My point is Mark Driscoll clearly apologized and even said what he apologized for. He even said what he should have done differently. And John a few days later gets on a stage and says you should stop following his ministry because he didn't apologize. He lied. You know it it it. So yeah, John John's got a lot to answer for there and and fix. But um yeah, he's been no no signs
• 43:00 - 43:30 of returning or repenting on that. And the the thing that's really hard is if you're that unrepentant, if you're that um willing to deceive, if you're that comfortable with deception, You're just going to keep doing it. Oh, yeah. So, to ask them, and you have asked him to meet, you've asked him. I've privately messaged him. I've privately messaged Brandon and David, uh, Kurt Parsley, who's on on staff there, uh, multiple board members, uh,
• 43:30 - 44:00 other other pastors that are, you know, associate pastors. Um, I've I've gone online and and and and made addresses to him. Um, like I said, I I think I think you have the church leadership that's kind of afraid to keep them accountable. And then I I mean, I'm not I'm not here defending the Assemblies of God by any means. I I think they've some in some ways the chickens have come home to roost that phrase. You know, they they didn't hold this man accountable when he made these decisions a long time ago. He's been teaching
• 44:00 - 44:30 stuff and inviting Bill Johnson in who's clearly got false doctrine that that is against what the Assembly of God has been in the past. Um, and you know, you sent me that video on the latter reign movement. I got John Lindle a year and a half ago praising the latter rain movement. It's crazy. And the Assembly of God is totally the the position paper and the stance and and the vote that they did in 1949 to really go we're not going to go down this ladder rain mess. So, this is one of the things I've noticed
• 44:30 - 45:00 that uh people like Daniel Kinda who say there's no such thing as the New Apostolic Reformation, they continually make the claim that their beliefs are the same as all Pentecostals historically have had. And at the same time they're promoting basically letter reign doctrine which goes against not orthodox Christianity not the Methodist not it it well and it goes against the the the largest Pentecostal denomination in the world. It goes against the assemblies of God. So you can't claim
• 45:00 - 45:30 that you're just a regular, you know, charismatic or just a good old fashioned I'll take a chance since I'm on this platform. It might might he get into some of these leaders ears. Um maybe but the Assembly of God leadership, you guys need to stand up and Yeah, they're not going to. I know, I'm afraid. But but they need to know that that people are waking up to this. you're becoming phony and you have you say you're for something but when people go against it you do nothing about it
• 45:30 - 46:00 because what are we supposed to believe other than money? I mean so wh why why if if money always trumps biblical sound doctrine and conviction what does it say about your spirit? I mean who who are you sold out to? Right? And this has been the um this has been the claim against denominational uh structure in general that it's just a big business or whatever. And it's it's not the intention is good. It's to say let's band together. We agree and we agree to
• 46:00 - 46:30 these very specific theological ideas. We want to protect these ideas. We don't want false teaching to creep in. That that's a good reason to band together under the under the umbrella of a denomination. Well, if you're going to do that, then you have to stick to the things that you claim are really important. when and when those things get shredded, you don't say, "Well, you know, we got to give everybody space to do their own thing." Well, no, that's that's not the purpose of the denomination to begin with. Yeah. It's to stop those things from happening. And you already know this. This isn't any surprise to you, but uh unfortunately
• 46:30 - 47:00 the hyper charismatic movements are and I would see say charismatics in general, but the hyper charismatics especially, they are um ripe for the picking for these type of false teachings because it it seems to run rampant. Uh and because they're seeking new revelation and and new ideas that there's just no safeguards there. They're not they're not going, "No, this is we can we can believe that uh the Holy Spirit moved
• 47:00 - 47:30 the way it did in in the Bible." But we can't just go beyond that and create all these new doctrines that do not clearly uh represent themselves in the New Testament church. Yeah. And I I think that's one of the biggest draws to somebody like Bill Johnson is the idea that he's got this new thing because everybody's disappointed with the old thing. Gosh. And and I think if you just teach a certain way, you're always reacting against the thing
• 47:30 - 48:00 that you're not and you create a straw man of the thing that you're not and make it really bad so that your new thing appears to be much much better. So you say, you know, we're the place where all the miracles are happening. We're the place where the spirit's moving. Well, okay, that those are all good ideas. The spirit moving is a great idea, but you're just saying that. Yeah. You're just saying that it's only happening in your place and you're assuming that all the other places don't have the spirit anymore. It's a spe If I
• 48:00 - 48:30 I've watched John a lot lately, obviously with analyzing some of the things he's taught falsely and the special move of God phrase, right? That thing is being used a dozen times a night, a day. I mean, every service it's there's a special move of God. Special move of God. And it really is. you're you're it's almost like they think they have a corner on the Holy Spirit and the move of God in their church. And I really am honored to be here. I'm so uh indebted to Pastor John and Debbie and
• 48:30 - 49:00 just the whole family, the whole tribe here. You guys have done so amazing to host uh a move of God. You know, we're in a move of God. So to this point, almost 4,000 people have put in testimonies of healing, extraordinary healings as we walk through this move of God. I mean, if there's anything a group of people who are steeped in false piety and religiosity can't stand, it's a move of God.
• 49:00 - 49:30 Here's what's interesting, and the reason why I would talk about this is because as we're in a move of God, um, part of me would want to wait and say, explain something after the fact. The other part of me says, you know what, uh, I I think we do well to be aware of some things, especially because uh, most people in this room have not been a part of a ginormous move of God. What do you think has sustained the move of God now
• 49:30 - 50:00 over 30 years at James Shiver? I would say this in one word, unity. And it really creates this really warped warped view of Christianity and it props up people in a way that's totally unhealthy and makes them susceptible I think more so to false teaching because they want to be part of something special. They want to be unique and new and better. And who doesn't love that idea? But you know, the church is about Christ. It isn't about you. Yeah. If if you if you just kind of set aside the gospel
• 50:00 - 50:30 repeatedly or or or you claim that you're actually in favor of the gospel while you barely even mention it, Todd White, for example. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They they will they will never say, "Oh, I'm I don't really care about the gospel. I don't really care about Christ. I I want to promote my own movement." They never come out and say that. How about the week of power? with a week of presence and power. The most powerful thing ever is resurrection power. Yes. Saved every man who gives
• 50:30 - 51:00 his heart to Christ. Th this is the power we celebrate every day as a Christ follower. But the week of power, zero mention of it. I mean, right? They're going to they're going to talk about he heal the sick, raise the dead, uh you know, golf guy injury that, you know, he's like, "Yeah, I'm somewhat better." And you it's just it's bad. and they never bring and and I'm I'm even going, okay, well, if somebody's healed, maybe they can give their story of redemption and how they they they turned from their
• 51:00 - 51:30 sin and and turned toward God and and gave their heart to him and really decided to, you know, surrender their life to him, you know, but that's not the story they celebrate. And the gospel message isn't tied to the miracles and and that's just doesn't make any sense. Biblically, we always saw that as a kind of a pattern of, you know, the miracles affirmed the messenger, right? And they were really about how do we how do we support the gospel message, especially in its infancy when the, you know, people weren't didn't understand it,
• 51:30 - 52:00 didn't know it, right? So, I wanted to um recommend a book. I want to make sure I get the name right, but I I think people in the audience who are struggling with this, who are in the midst of, you know, kind of having the rug pulled out from under him. Mhm. I just got the paper back. While you're pulling that up, I'd say to anybody that's watching that, you definitely watch uh lots of videos from Steve Kosar. He's got a wonderful channel. Uh obviously they have some fun with it the
• 52:00 - 52:30 bar which is a good way to think of uh some of the false teaching that happens that just slips right in in a message but he's got some great content that goes through. I I know you've covered all of those false teachers. Some of the common phrases that people use, you know, the same Bible verses they kind of they all borrow the same teaching from and uh kind of replicate it. Uh so th those are all very helpful. I I kind of use the analogy, see Stephen, it it's kind of like um the uh uh if we're all
• 52:30 - 53:00 uh inside of a a castle and uh we got good good fence, good or good uh walls built, where are we vulnerable? It's going to be the gates, right? And so you do a wonderful job and I want to try to help do the the same, but let's let's let's make sure the church knows where we're vulnerable. And there's certain there's certain passages in scripture that these abusers of scripture use to prop up their false teaching. And we need to go, hey, that's where they
• 53:00 - 53:30 that's where they can get in. We need to know why we keep that door shut. We don't let that door open. It lets in the wolves, right? So anyways, yeah, I like that. Matthew 18. There's the one that gets used. Did you talk to him in person first? How dare you go online? Yep. Yep. Yeah. Oh, so we the guy can put up videos with millions of views all around the world and you can't have a meeting with him. Yeah. You you literally can't. I've proven this. If you want to meet with Bill Johnson or Chris Valatin Yeah.
• 53:30 - 54:00 and you go on their website, it says, "Sorry, you can't do that." Right. Don't touch thy anointed. If you if you come to church, you might bump into him in the hall as he's leaving to get into his $180,000 car. and you might be able to, you know, say hi to him at best. Anyway, yeah, the book is called Something's Not Right. Decoding the Hidden Tactics of Abuse and Freeing Yourself from Its Power by WDE Mullen. Yeah, that's the book that uh I have the audio version.
• 54:00 - 54:30 It was so good. I listened to just the first or second chapter. Oh, I got to just buy this because I I want to be able to reference it. But I think people need to um they need to peel back all the layers of like how did I get here? How did how did how did this happen to this church and how did I fall for it and how can I make sure that these things don't happen again in the future and I think the biggest thing obviously is just to read your Bible it is you know% the the thing that I I like to tell the story about is I was just a worship leader guy not even a worship leader I was in the worship praise band
• 54:30 - 55:00 I would I would play and I was there for more than one service so I would hear the sermon more than once and honestly kind of out of somewhat just boredom I would look at the verses as he was quoting stuff and I would check and and I would I would just look at the verse and listen to the way he was using it and I would check it in the Bible and I'd say to myself, "Well, that's not what the verse is about." And then I would I would think, "Well, is that what the Bible is? It's just a thing we can use to make it say whatever we were
• 55:00 - 55:30 going to say anyway." Perfect. Yeah. I was like, "Well, that can't be right. There's something wrong here." I mean, and I think sometimes there there are preachers who do that because they they literally don't know better. They're not being totally deceitful. They just think it's it's nice to pull a verse in that kind of helps them make their point. But the verse isn't actually making your point. You You shouldn't be doing that. No. But this is a place we are in the church where people love the new thing. They love the new fresh guy, the new movement. I kid you not. We recorded
• 55:30 - 56:00 this video on or this interview on May 2nd and on May 4th, just two days later, John Lindle posted this. But tonight, what I want to do is I want to talk to you about the new thing that God wants to do. And the flashy, you know, um the the the issue of populism is one that I'm really interested in, especially in the political realm that we're in right now. If you're a populist, what that means is you appeal to the the the lowest common
• 56:00 - 56:30 denominator of public thought and you appeal to their emotional state, not to their logic or to their reason or even to things like history or the political process. In the church, that's exactly what is happening. The the guys like John Lindell and Bill Johnson, there are a number of things. They're false teachers. They're deceptive. They misuse the Bible for sure. I've proven that in the 19 in the 1950s, right, Stephen? They they had to use tents to to distort and ruin the gospel. Now they can use
• 56:30 - 57:00 these, right? And so these these men that really are really about creating a name for themselves, they have a whole new avenue. And it's so easy for them to create reals and Instagram sensationalized Christianity, make it what it shouldn't be about, and build a following to then spread deceptive um downright false gospel messages. And um we're seeing that at an accelerated
• 57:00 - 57:30 rate. You're exactly right. And one of the reasons I I'm a little bit hesitant to go down that road is because it tends to sound like all hope is lost. Things are really bad. They're only getting worse. You know, and Christians often are honestly they're a little bit too negative about everything all the time. And I people might be surprised to hear me say that because, you know, my channel is all about exposing false teaching, but that's not that's not all that I do with my life. That would be a
• 57:30 - 58:00 terrible way to live. It's just kind of where God has put me. But, um, I think there's two things going on at the same time. And I don't know where this is going, but you're exactly right. Uh, people like Bill Johnson can say whatever they want to say. They create their own narrative. They spin everything in the way that they want to, and you know, there's there's no one in their own realm that can stop that from happening. Everybody that surrounds them is on their side. everything they put
• 58:00 - 58:30 out, every book they publish, every speech they give, it's a it's a totally Bill Johnson affirming environment. And because of the internet, they can put that out to a larger audience than ever before, not just the people in in writing, California. At the same time, yeah, you can do what you're doing. I can do what I'm doing. Chris Roseboro, Justin Peters, Dan Long, all of my friends who are on the internet. And none of us did this because we had nothing else to do. You know, we've all had jobs and work and you know, they're
• 58:30 - 59:00 pastors. You know, do you know what Dan Long actually does for a living? No. Dan Long is a armored truck driver. Okay. Okay. He works he works for a security one of one of those companies and he works incredibly long hours. He's gone from home more than eight hours every day. He does a wonderful job. Yeah, he does a wonderful job. He and his wife Robin and she does a lot of the research to help make their videos. Yeah. But they are, I think, one of the best examples of what could lay people do if
• 59:00 - 59:30 they really felt called by God to call out the false teaching. And it's it's largely because we've actually experienced that ourselves. Not in every case, but in many cases. Yeah. I don't know if you know that Chris Roseboro and his wife were both abused in a latter reign cult. Yeah. Yeah. A long time ago. You know, you know, you say call out false doctrine, but it is true. But then then I mean you teach the true doctrine, right? So I think I think what's really helpful about your channel and you mentioned Chris Roseboro is, you know,
• 59:30 - 60:00 it's it's a Bible study. You're you're you're going to kind of hear hear what is being manipulated and then hear how orthodox Christianity has always interpreted this section of scripture and here's why. And that that's a that's an affirming. It's edifying the body for sure. I um I have so many videos, you know, I've made I don't know how many videos now. I could probably look it up, but it's a lot. Yeah. And one of the things I really don't like doing, I think it's because of that artist part of me. I like to always make things different than I did before. Because it
• 60:00 - 60:30 just isn't very satisfying creatively to have to keep rehashing the same things. But I realize I got to keep rehashing the same things. Yeah. And I do need to teach what is true Christianity as much as I do, you know, point out all the bad stuff. Mhm. And some so sometimes I think, well, you know, I've I've done a number of videos on good teaching, you know, and I' I've had other people on my channel that have talked about how to interpret the Bible correctly, but if people aren't going to click on those because, oh gosh, they're eight months old, can't possibly watch an eight-month
• 60:30 - 61:00 old video. I got I got to remind Yeah, I got to remind myself to continually point towards the truth. And you know, my goal is not to have a lot of followers on my channel, per se, although it's nice that I have more followers. That's great. But I want people to go to church and I want them to go to a good church and I want them to to never have to worry about all this stuff ever again. I want them to be free from this false teaching so that they can live a life of peace and to know that no matter what happens in this life, Christ has died on the cross to
• 61:00 - 61:30 pay for their sins so that they can have eternity with him. Amen. Because this this world is not going to be here forever or at least your life isn't going to last forever. And I think um you know some of these false teachers mention that here and there, but that really isn't the emphasis. The emphasis is always on the great thing that's Yeah. It it's right here and now. And it's it's so disappointing when those things don't happen. It sounds good at first, but y you've been you've been around the block. I've been around the block even longer. We've we've we've heard promises, right? We've heard people talk
• 61:30 - 62:00 about the great thing that's right around the corner and then, you know, 10 years go by and it's like they're not even bringing it up anymore. that thing that was supposed to have already happened. Now they're on to some new thing that's that's we're supposed to expect next. And that's why, you know, um I I I love going to an oldfashioned Lutheran church cuz we just keep pointing back to Christ and what he did on the cross and we keep referring to the Bible because we know that's not going to change. So there's peace in that. It's not about, you know, uh something is boring because it's not new. It's it's no, it's more about
• 62:00 - 62:30 something is solid and true and unchanging. And that's where we really have peace in life. And I think the idea of something new and fresh is deceptive in a in a lot of psychological ways because who doesn't feel like sometimes our lives are not that great? They're not that exciting. We're not that important. We're just ordinary. And so somebody comes along and kind kind of pulls you in with all this sense of you're you're special because you go to this place, right? Yeah. No. And you find out you're a pun. You're just being
• 62:30 - 63:00 used by that guy. The analogy that comes to mind is, you know, the the true gospel is steak, right? It's just it's good. It's nutritious. It's delicious every time. I can have it all the time. And unless you're vegetarian. You're vegetarian. You're in trouble. Yeah. Yeah. Just fast forward this part of the video. You know, the uh the false gospel is the what is that? The the the veggie burgers, right? The the fake meat. It's just it just isn't the same. It's just
• 63:00 - 63:30 bad. Uh, no. Stop trying to make something new, right? Just just stick with the good stuff. What was the What was the candy that the people in when I was a kid and we would go trick-or-treating, there were certain homes that every year they would give out the cheapest possible candy that you half the time wouldn't even eat because it was so not the milk duds, but almost as bad as milk duds. Just these hard little Somebody's gonna Somebody's going to put it in the comments that they're going to be their favorite candy and they're never going to follow you again. Yeah. Oh, sorry. But that's what I was
• 63:30 - 64:00 thinking compared to steak. These crummy little candies or something that has no value. It has no nutrition. But but yeah, I'm I'm I'm glad we can talk and I'm going to put up some of the information in this video. So I don't know how long the video will be because our conversation is one part and I'll try to present the facts here as well. Yeah. And I'm really glad you compiled all that stuff. Thanks. Yep. Do you have um I mean we didn't talk about the fact that you are a professional. Yeah, I'm a dentist. I I fix I fix teeth. I I
• 64:00 - 64:30 specifically do something that's really fun. It's life-changing stuff. It's when somebody's going to be either going into a denture, that's what they need. They've got we would call it a terminal dentition. They they they don't, you know, crowns, veneers, root canals, the the basic few implants, that's not going to fix it. It's it's really we've got to kind of scrap the teeth. So um rather than going into dentures, I would place five to six implants in in an arch, right? So five on top, four, five, six
• 64:30 - 65:00 on top, four, five, six on bottom. And we screw in a full set of teeth. So it basically gives somebody a full bridge of teeth that look and feel pretty much like natural teeth and keep people from having to go to a denture, which the quality of life with a denture just isn't the same. So it's a very rewarding treatment. a lot of lot of abuse, a lot of neglect. Uh a lot of people, you know, previous drug abuse challenges, people are getting their life back on track. Um so it's a great ministry opportunity for me. I really have
• 65:00 - 65:30 enjoyed it to connect with people um and love on them during time when they're they're the most, you know, pretty vulnerable about their smile and give them a, you know, kind of a new start start, a fresh start. Y Okay. Hey, so here's a question that maybe you weren't ready for me to ask, but you've been really vocal about your issues with what's happened at James River Church and you and you live in that area. Yes. Has how has it affected you on a personal level? So, it has I mean, we've had we've had some people call up and say, "I'm not coming there anymore." Right. As patients, right? Um I you know
• 65:30 - 66:00 that our our doctor's team very many of them are are Christians and so I've I've shared my uh faith with them. uh we're all on the same page at least like my they understand why I'm doing what I'm doing. I've shared that with my team that hey I I can't just cut you know my life isn't I'm a dentist while during these hours and I'm a Christian outside of these hours. I'm a Christian all the time and I'm just a dentist while I'm here, right? Um and so uh you know I I think it's something I know that uh
• 66:00 - 66:30 whether or not it's impacted um business or personal personal obviously I mean friends and family locally. I mean, I hear uh you know, what people say it it, you know, I don't let it get under my skin because I I really feel a conviction about this and I know that there's many positive stories. I've getting getting tons of messages from people that just the other day a lady says, "My friend finally it's been the last few weeks just been binge watching your stuff and others learning about uh
• 66:30 - 67:00 how she's been deceived." And so her encouragement was to me like, "Hey, I know that sometimes it feels like, you know, this is an interesting thing, and I don't know if you've ever noticed this, but you have kind of three different camps. You have people that have realized they've been lied to and deceived and they they get out of that that church, right? They're out of it, they leave, and then maybe they've been out for like a year or two." And so for them, they're kind of over hearing about false teaching. They've kind of they've kind of accepted it. So, if you're still
• 67:00 - 67:30 repeating that message and using it, they're kind of like, man, can you just give it up? Right? That's kind of their take. Then you have the people that will, you know, they don't want anything to do with it because they're they're blinded. They're deceived. But you have those precious people in the middle and you just don't know how many and when they're going to be there where they come out of that I'm deceived and I'm I'm seeing that crack in the in the door and and I'm I'm open to more like I'm I'm kind of doing some research on my own. I'm reading my Bible. and the Holy
• 67:30 - 68:00 Spirit's working on them. And so, I know that's why you do what you do. That's why I'm committed right now to to being vocal about this. Um, our goal is to turn this into a um a monthly podcast called uh Out of Context Christianity. And um we'll we'll definitely want to have you on as a guest at some point, but kind of tackling the most. Go ahead. Do you have a YouTube channel yet? I don't think you do. Do you? So, I have a personal YouTube channel and I'm going to change the name to Out of Context Christianity. And you can start a new one, too. You don't have to get rid of your personal one if you wanted to.
• 68:00 - 68:30 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I I'm I'm We kind of feel like we need to to turn this into um you know, more of a consistent and and obviously take some of the focus uh it's been on our church, you know, our church that we were a part of and the people that are the most influenced by it. But at some point, you know, we've kind of said most of what we can say, although they seem to surprise me. I I thought I'd said all he could say last year and then yeah, he leaves the Assembly of God and now I'm now I'm like, "Wow, I can say a lot more about that." But I I if if your experience is
• 68:30 - 69:00 is like mine, we were going to this big charismatic church and it was infiltrated by Bethl, but not to the extent that they were having Bill Johnson come and visit or anything, right? And I actually approached the pastor and I had a meeting with him where I expressed my concerns. And he actually admitted that, yeah, he didn't agree with all of Bill Johnson's teaching. And he even admitted that I probably shouldn't be referencing him in my sermons, which was good on one hand, but on the other hand, he wasn't really trying to get rid of the influence
• 69:00 - 69:30 completely. There was even a small group that was meeting that was using Bethl curriculum. At the same time, he was admitting that he probably shouldn't be referencing Bill Johnson from the stage. Ah, but I left without creating a big stir because it was actually a new pastor that I I I didn't know real well. It was a church that we had gone to. We left for a while. We came back with this new pastor. And so I had somewhat of a relationship, somewhat even a friendship with. Mhm. But I realized I cannot stay
• 69:30 - 70:00 here. And I'm not on the board. I'm not on staff. I'm just a guy who contributes to the worship team. And so I left politely, but I made it really clear why I was leaving. And there was a few people that I talked to because they were friends of ours, but I didn't start uh going to everybody, you know, and saying, "You should leave this church. You should leave this church. This church is wrong. This cuz I just I I knew that that was going to make a lot of things really difficult for all of us in the future." And I actually live in the same town with that pastor to this
• 70:00 - 70:30 day. Okay. So in in my situation, I was really hoping that when I left and I started blogging and then when I was making videos, I was going to have all these people leaving that church and saying, "Wow, Steve, you were right. You know what? Hasn't has not happened. I've had a I've had a handful of people who came out and they're really thankful and we're still friends. I also have people who still go there and I'm still their friend." Mhm. And it's not the same as what you guys experienced, but Yeah. Did you at some point think you would get
• 70:30 - 71:00 better results than you've had up to this point? And are you a little bit disappointed or how do you feel about that? I I would say I've been um I I've been seeing a consistent results um from from the community and the messages. I mean, it's it's maybe a dozen or two messages, a dozen or couple dozen a day um from people that have been, you know, encouraging and saying the message is getting out. But yeah, I mean, I think you're always at some point there's just this why can't
• 71:00 - 71:30 everybody see this? It's so obvious, you know, uh it's sad. It's sad that anybody would want to follow man over over uh you know, biblical truth. Um and so it's just a it's a difficult pill to swallow, but the Bible's clear that we better be ready to swallow that one because it predicts all of this. So yeah, and that's why I always try to say in our hit the bar episodes, take responsibility for your own spiritual life. Yes. No matter what anybody says, no matter what Steve Kosar says, no matter what John Lindell says, it's your
• 71:30 - 72:00 responsibility. If you really believe you have this relationship with God, which is what Christians always talk about, then make sure that that's a good relationship with God based on what God's word actually says, not on what some guy says. So, correct. That's probably a good way to Yeah. summarize it. That's a good place to summarize and to stop because we could probably talk for hours. And it's been fun talking to you. I really enjoyed it. So, I really appreciate what you're doing. I want you to be encouraged. I think that you and your wife both are going to have a really positive impact as the years go by. And I want to just encourage you to keep doing what you're doing so that old
• 72:00 - 72:30 guys like me don't have to do it quite so much as the years go by cuz I'm feeling more and more like I want to I want to encourage people who are younger than me who have more energy than me so I don't have I don't know. You got pretty energy. You have good energy. Yeah, you have good energy. I'm I don't have as much energy as I used to, but thank you. I'm I actually, you know, I don't want my energy to be based on anger. I think that's part of what energizes me sometimes and of course that's not good. Yeah. You know, I mean there is a there is a place for us to be
• 72:30 - 73:00 uh agitated to action. Yeah. You know, and I think there are probably some people who should be more angry and they should be more agitated to do something because they maybe could do something. But I think I veer in the other direction where maybe I get too angry and I get too agitated and you know, God is ultimately in control, which is a hard thing to figure out when you see stuff like this happening. But that that's kind of what we have to fall back on. God Yep. God knows what he's doing even when it seems like Yeah, this is a mess. Yep. You sure you know what you're
• 73:00 - 73:30 doing, God? And we have to just trust that he does know what he's doing. Yeah. It's a It's the balance of knowing that we're his hands and feet. We're supposed to be responsible for follow our convictions and be vocal, but understand that we don't we're not ultimately the ones that change the heart of of man. You know, that's really in God's hands. Yep. In fact, the the pastor who I had, he he moved to a different church, but the pastor that I had here, our Lutheran church for 10 years, more than once, he said to me, Steve, you know, God, the
• 73:30 - 74:00 Holy Spirit can handle these things. You know that, don't you? I be like, yeah, but I want to do more. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah, that's good. It's good to always have that balance to know that God's in control, but to do everything we can as well when we really feel like that's what God is calling us to. And I think the point you made that I didn't want I I forgot to mention that there are people who come out of these bad churches and they don't want to talk about it anymore. They don't want to watch videos like mine. And I always say great, don't watch videos like mine. Yeah. Yeah. Watch videos where you hear good teaching. Watch videos where you
• 74:00 - 74:30 learn more about the Bible or about church history or about theological positions or whatever. I I love all that stuff. I would I would gladly have a channel that talked about everything but false teaching, but that's not where God has placed me at this point. So yeah, I want to encourage people that God really does want you to be at peace. So, yep. That's great. God bless you, man. That was a good time. Thanks so much. And uh excited to see how your channel keeps impacting uh so many people. So, thanks again for for what you've done for my wife and I and our family. Uh we're
• 74:30 - 75:00 grateful. My pleasure. May God be praised. Yep. Amen. Basta. [Music] Hey, hey, hey, hey. The vote was unanimous, reflecting the
• 75:00 - 75:30 unity of our church's leadership.