Interview with Jonathan Phillips

Summary

In this episode of "Travels Through Time," host Peter Moore engages with crusading history expert Jonathan Phillips to delve into the eventful year of 1187. They dissect the legendary figure of Sultan Saladin and his pivotal role in medieval history through the examination of three crucial scenes, including his decisive victory over the Crusaders at the Battle of Hattin, the negotiation and subsequent capture of Jerusalem, and the magnanimous mercy displayed towards the city's defenders. The discussion unfolds the layers of Saladin's character, his strategic prowess, and the enduring impact of his actions on Christian-Muslim relations. Phillips' insights illuminate the complex interplay of power, faith, and legacy in Saladin's narratives, drawing a vivid portrait of a leader whose influence resonates through centuries.

Highlights

• Jonathan Phillips explores the life and impact of Sultan Saladin, a revered medieval hero. 🌟
• The Battle of Hattin exemplifies Saladin's tactical brilliance against the Crusaders. 🏇
• Saladin's humane approach during the capture of Jerusalem became a cornerstone of his legacy. 🤝
• Phillips discusses how Saladin's mercy in 1187 changed the perception of him globally. ⚖️
• The lasting narrative of Saladin illustrates the complex intertwining of faith and power. 🌍

Key Takeaways

• Sultan Saladin is a legendary figure revered in both Muslim and Christian worlds. 🌟
• The Battle of Hattin in 1187 was a tactical masterpiece by Saladin, showcasing his strategic genius. 🏇
• Saladin's capture of Jerusalem displayed extraordinary magnanimity, impacting his legacy positively. 🤝
• Mercy and power intertwined in Saladin's approach, highlighting his skill as a leader. ⚖️
• Saladin's actions at Jerusalem laid the groundwork for his lasting reputation in Western Europe. 🏆

Overview

In an engaging exploration with Jonathan Phillips, the podcast delves into the fascinating life and times of Sultan Saladin, a figure whose presence looms large in medieval history. Phillips, a seasoned historian, embarks on a narrative journey through 1187, dissecting the pivotal moments that defined Saladin's legacy, including his strategic victory at the Battle of Hattin.

Phillips masterfully recounts the fall of Jerusalem and the unique approach Saladin took in sparing its inhabitants, contrasting sharply with the brutal conquest by the Crusaders decades earlier. This act of mercy not only solidified Saladin's standing among his contemporaries but also ensured his revered status in Western historical narratives.

The podcast captures the essence of Saladin as a leader who masterfully balanced power and faith, creating a legacy that resonated beyond his lifetime. Phillips' insights reveal how Saladin's actions were deeply intertwined with the cultural and religious dynamics of his time, shaping a narrative that continues to echo in modern discussions of historical leadership.

Chapters

• 00:00 - 10:00: Introduction and Background The introduction and background chapter of the podcast 'Travels Through Time' welcomes listeners and explains the premise of the show. Each episode features a special guest who provides a guided tour of historical events or eras from the past. The podcast is produced in collaboration with 'History Today,' which is a well-regarded history magazine in Britain. The magazine offers additional articles related to the podcast and details about the featured guests, enriching the listener's experience.
• 10:00 - 20:00: Jonathan Phillips and the Crusading Era This chapter initiates with a special offer from Travels Through Time, a unique podcast that delves into historical years through the perspectives of guest experts. The host, Peter Moore, sets the stage for examining the crusading era, presumably featuring insights from historian Jonathan Phillips. The introduction highlights the podcast's engaging format aimed at immersing listeners in pivotal historical moments.
• 20:00 - 30:00: The First Crusade and Saladin's Rise The chapter explores the historical context of the First Crusade and the rise of Sultan Saladin, focusing on the significant events surrounding the Battle of Hattin in 1187. Saladin is portrayed as a revered figure in both the Muslim and Christian worlds.
• 30:00 - 40:00: The Battle of Hattin This chapter features an introduction by Jonathan Philips, a professor of crusading history at Royal Holloway University. The focus is on Philips' expertise and his new biography of Saladin, which has been well-received, being described as vivid and judicious by Dan Jones in the Sunday Times.
• 40:00 - 50:00: Saladin's Siege of Jerusalem Saladin's Siege of Jerusalem explores the historical context of the crusading era during the high middle ages, comparing its dramatic events to scenes from modern media like Game of Thrones. The chapter features a discussion with historian Jonathan, who provides insights into this tumultuous period and the complex motivations behind the Crusades.
• 50:00 - 60:00: Negotiations and Surrender of Jerusalem The chapter discusses the geopolitical landscape of the Muslim Near East at the end of the 11th century, describing it as a complex and fractured region with various Muslim groups, including Sunni and Shia, and different splinter groups. There was no single dominant power at this time. The Seljuk Turks, driven westward by climate change, had become a significant power though.
• 60:00 - 70:00: Saladin's Legacy The chapter titled 'Saladin's Legacy' explores the complex and diverse region of Iraq, Syria, and Egypt near the end of the 11th century. It describes a fragmented political landscape with a rich tapestry of communities, including Eastern Christians, Jews, and the ruling Amid Shia dynasty in Egypt. This melting pot of cultures and the iconic figures of the Crusaders feature prominently in the chapter, illustrating the historical significance of the era.
• 70:00 - 80:00: Closing Remarks and Next Episode Preview The chapter discusses the motivation behind Pope Urban II's call for the First Crusade at the Council of Clermont in November 1095. Pope Urban II aimed to stop the internal conflict amongst Western Knights and direct their efforts towards a cause he deemed morally right—regaining control of Jerusalem from Muslim rule. He presented this mission as a spiritual deal, promising spiritual rewards for those who participated.

Interview with Jonathan Phillips Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 [Music] hello and welcome to travels through time in each episode of this podcast we invite a special guest to take us on a tailored tour of the past travel through time is brought to you in partnership with history today Britain's best-loved serious history magazine you can read articles relating to this podcast and more about our guests at history today
• 00:30 - 01:00 calm forward-slash travels there is also a special subscription offer that travels through time listeners three issues for just one pound each [Music] hello you're listening to travels 3-time the podcast where we explore one year in history with an expert guest in three pivotal scenes my name is Peter Moore
• 01:00 - 01:30 and after a few episodes rooted in the 20th century we're now making a bigger leap back into the past today we're going to be talking about the Crusades about the holy city of Jerusalem and about the legendary Battle of Hattin the year is 1187 and most of all we're gonna be talking about one of the most enduring heroes of the medieval era he's a man that's revered both in the Muslim and Christian worlds right to this day and his name is Sultan Saladin our guest
• 01:30 - 02:00 today or guide if you like will be telling us why that is the case Jonathan Philips has perhaps one of the liveliest job titles in the UK he's professor of crusading history Royal Holloway University just outside London he's written widely on all aspects of crusading history and this month his new biography of Saladin is published Dan Jones writing in the Sunday Times has called it vivid and judicious punctuated
• 02:00 - 02:30 by set pieces that charge along like battle scenes from Game of Thrones I met up with Jonathan in London just the other day and I started by asking him to explain what this crusading era was all about welcome to travels through time Jonathan thanks for talking to us today about the Crusades pleasure right a little bit about the crusading era to begin with we're in the high middle ages there's all sorts going on but I just think it'd be interesting for us if we
• 02:30 - 03:00 talked broadly about you know what's happening in the Near East at this time and why is it happening the Muslim Near East at the end of the 11th century is an incredibly complicated region got Sunni Muslims Shia Muslims there is splinter groups of Shia Muslims it's a very fractured landscape there's no sort of single power that's dominating the area mid 11th century there been a couple of big power groups the Seljuk Turks had been driven westwards by climate change to take over what we say
• 03:00 - 03:30 now was Iraq and Syria and the amid Shia dynasty are there in Egypt but by the end of the 11th century it's quite fragmented very complicated indeed very polyglot population you've got a lot of Eastern Christians living there Jewish population as well so a real melting pot yes basis is an area that people kind of know in a way in hologram form perhaps and the Crusaders in particular of these incredibly iconic characters in the historical story so
• 03:30 - 04:00 why would over there what were they doing what they're trying to achieve well the first crusade was called by pope urban ii at the Council of Clermont in November 1095 and he as the head of the Catholic Church was trying to get the Western Knights to stop fighting amongst themselves to stop perpetrating violence in Western Europe and to go and do something that as he saw it was morally right which would be to regain Jerusalem Christ's City from the hands of the Muslims so he offered them a spiritual deal that if you go and carry
• 04:00 - 04:30 on fighting which you're patently rather good at but you're doing it for this good cause then you will receive a spiritual reward and you will avoid therefore the torments of Hell that undoubtedly await you for your sinful lives so he makes this appeal tens of thousands of people respond to it they're not all driven by religion or holy by religion Knights are also driven by a sense of honor wanting to sort of show off and achieve great deeds small number are looking for land although most people came home afterwards and
• 04:30 - 05:00 some of them are gonna go because the boss tells them to go so you have to kind of go along with your Lord and Master so I think it's always a variety of reasons why people go on crusade but religion and regaining Jerusalem christen domes holy cities is the driving that's right at the heart of it it's interesting how you talk about this confluence of factors this idea of a common enemy which is you may begin to bind together the Western you know kind of Europeans in a way and then interesting to me you mentioned climate change which is something people don't readily associate with this period of
• 05:00 - 05:30 history but there's some been some work going on about this recently yes there's an Israeli scholar called Ronnie el emblem and he was looking at sort of narratives of the 11th century and he noticed that if an awful lot of mentions of have terrible winters and it's clear that the Turkic peoples in Central Asia were being driven westwards because their animals simply couldn't survive on the steppe so you've got these nomadic groups moving westward in there they're ferocious warriors and they really will take over anybody in
• 05:30 - 06:00 their path so this is all adding to the sort of sense of flux and change in the near East hmm okay from from both sides as it were okay some chronological nuts and bolts first crusade is in the ten 90s more or less July 10 99 is the conquest urgent when Jerusalem falls to the Crusaders and we have the Kingdom of Jerusalem which is established at this point which some people will have heard about this is really the back toward the contextual backstory so the time travel
• 06:00 - 06:30 we're going to be doing today because throughout the 11-hundred you have Jerusalem in the hands of the Christians incredibly iconic city as you described it important in all sorts of ways in religious history and cultural history too and as a Santa geographically and this is the time that the character you write about is born and is brought up into the world can you tell us who that is please Saladin was a Kurd he's born in Tikrit which is up in modern Iraq now
• 06:30 - 07:00 on the Tigris River born around 1137 1138 his Kurdish family are warriors they're great horsemen and great fighters and they're employed by the Syrian Turkic warlords to do a lot of fighting for them and it's in the service of one of these great Syrian warlords a man called neural Dean that Saladin's family makes it sort of advance up the ranks if you like neural dean is a man who's very important to Saladin story I think this
• 07:00 - 07:30 in some ways is the great sort of unsung hero of the counter crusade of the jihad the Muslim world had had not really responded effectively to the First Crusade the idea of the jihad had rather fallen into into abeyance but under neural dean he initiates a program of spiritual renewal he is a very very pious man he does a lot of madrasahs he dispenses justice in its proper form and gives the counter Crusader sort of an intellectual and a military drive and that's the environment that went
• 07:30 - 08:00 and his family moved towards Damascus in the 11 50s and 60s that's the environment in which he's growing up in a very sort of powerful drive against the Westerners the idea of throwing the Franks out of Jerusalem and jihad is a word that we've familiar with today because of course it's often in the news and you write about it really being two things because it's the the personal aspect it's you trying to fight the battles with yourself to be a better Muslim but then there's the external aspect as well which is I think the
• 08:00 - 08:30 thing that you're talking about which is growing at this particular moment and maybe it's crystallized in Jerusalem itself yes there is that the greater jihad which is you as you say fighting against your inner demons for the good of your soul but the lesser jihad the jihad in the world under nura Deen starts becoming focused on Jerusalem the third most important city in Islam the place where the Prophet ascends to heaven on his Night Journey many other sort of important spiritual events and references connected with that city and
• 08:30 - 09:00 so there is a focus on on the need to recover that for his lap and he was occurred which is interesting but then you talk about him having Damascus as his central base so there's obviously a bit of movement going on in his in his early life and yes I mean it's a very fluid Society and his family are employed by neural dean as these these warriors and administrators and there's some time in Aleppo and Damascus is certainly I think the place that Sutter didn't like the most certainly almost somewhere he regards as home in his sort
• 09:00 - 09:30 of later career and constantly tries to go back to it and it's where he's buried as well but yes there is a lot of fluidity and another place that he ends up going to in the eleven sixties is to Egypt and that really is where his story starts taking off because Egypt is a place of struggle between the the Franks in Jerusalem and the Syrian Muslims and they're both out to take over this incredibly wealthy land that's ruled by rather failing dynasty and so Saladin is
• 09:30 - 10:00 sent in with his uncle to try to conquer Egypt for the Syrian Muslims and this is something that they managed to achieve in early 1169 okay brilliant say one last thing I think we should just dwell on for a moment before we dive in the Franks what are they where'd they come from the armies of the First Crusade came from all across Western Europe so many regions represent it all drawn to the idea of trying to recover Jerusalem for Crittenden and in a sense as I said a heritage of the Frankish empires of Charlemagne back in the 9th
• 10:00 - 10:30 century and so there is a sort of sense of Frankish identity that's very difficult to define that they do share rather than listing a great range of regions that people came from this word comes to be a sort of a catch-all yeah they represent them and then when they are in the Near East it's a word that the Muslims and the people in the Near East pick up upon they say the French and so Frank's is a word that works for both sides as a catch-all now let's go for the heart of the matter and this is your year which is one of the iconic
• 10:30 - 11:00 ones in the Middle Ages surely 1187 and we're going to go through this year in three different scenes and you're gonna tell us why it's important let's start off on the evening of the second of July 1187 where are we we're in Galilee we're in a tent with the king of Jerusalem King give loosen you're the ruler of Jerusalem and he is deciding what he's going to do because his lands have been invaded by Saladin so this point Saladin
• 11:00 - 11:30 is much more powerful how old is he at this point Saladin's around 50 years old at this time and what he's been doing over the last 12 or 13 years is drawing together a fragile coalition of the Muslim Near East to defeat the Crusaders but at the same time he's very obviously building his own dynastic Empire this is the great tension with Saladin what motivates him is he a holy warrior out to recover Jerusalem for Islam or is he
• 11:30 - 12:00 just a self-serving dynastic ambitious man and the answer is of course both they're not mutually exclusive at all and while he certainly use herbs the dynasty of his former patron Nura Dean and it's pretty relentless in doing so he's doing it under the banner of I am the best man to lead Sunni Islam back into Jerusalem so he's really wrapping it around around himself and his family and so after he spent these 13 years together a fragile coalition of the Muslim Near East on these terms he has
• 12:00 - 12:30 to deliver there's a point of which you know you have you can't just keep saying I'm the best man for it and you've got to come with me or I'll bully or pressure you into it you've got to deliver and while he's fought the Franks from time to time he'd been badly beaten by them once or twice he really is in a position where he has to bring them to battle and deliver on his promises so we're at this tense of the Franks and they know that Saladin's army has been growing it's close by so this is really a moment when they've got to make a decision of
• 12:30 - 13:00 whether they're going to engage or not and the numbers involved a massive aren't they the Frankish Army's about 20,000 Saladin's probably about thirty thirty-five thousand but the tension is for the Franks if they bring him to battle of course that's a risk I mean battles are inherently dangerous and it's a set of all or nothing situation what they did a few years in the past when summers invaded was to just shadow his army you've got to watch your lands being devastated your crops being burned your animals led away but you just stay
• 13:00 - 13:30 out of reach of the punch kind of thing and in the end Saladin's army will just have to go home and harvest its own lands and it will break down and in a sense if you could keep doing that again and again the tension the pressure that he's under to deliver and the challenge that he has to keep his fragile coalition together well sooner or later break him but you've got this tension you are you are not being a good ruler for your people in one way if your lands are being trashed by the enemy mmm so this king of Jerusalem
• 13:30 - 14:00 we should we call him he's in this tent and presumably because the Crusaders have been controlling this territory for wait eight years at this point they're in the position of power they can I suppose back off of if you like as well that as much as they're aggravated by Saladin and his forces but what happens on this day that makes it so interesting to you that you'd like to go back there to see it these summonses sort of counseled his senior warriors and they know that Saladin has taken a castle
• 14:00 - 14:30 called Tiberias and a lady of the castle is there so there's a sort of chivalric element rescue the lady in distress and so there's a sort of pressure to to save her as well but his Council of Nobles including her husband it has to be said decide that it really is the best thing not to engage Saladin they're gonna stay put not least because where this tent is there's some great springs the springs of Sofia the army is well watered were in July were in peak summer in the Near
• 14:30 - 15:00 East and that is climate change and cold winters it's is still quite extreme leaders and so that is a big big part of it big army twenty or thousand men lots of water where they are if we can just shadow him and basically so that he'll have to go away in the end they make a decision and as far as everybody's concerned that's it when they all go off to bed but very late at night there is another knock at the tent and a man called Jared to read for the master of the Knights Templar comes in and he says
• 15:00 - 15:30 to the king I'd like a word with you about that decision and I profoundly disagree with it so this is a man who's a master of one of the great military orders men dedicated to the defense of the Holy Land sworn to defeat Islam it's their job she likes their vocation their warrior monks and Jerrod is a very very bellicose man he's led a couple of other failed military engagements before and he's he's smarting over those a bit he hasn't wanted to personal grudges that are part of the thing but also he says to G look you know you've been king a
• 15:30 - 16:00 few years you were Regent before that once when you were Regent you didn't fight Saladin you stayed out of reach and we all said it was a good thing and then you got deposed you were thrown out of the Regency it's the same people telling you the same thing again how stupid are you are you gonna fall for this again and all these things start pressurizing G into thinking well yeah maybe I should fight Saladin Gerardus is very clever and obviously presses a lot of buttons with him about his own worth as king and it works and he goes to bed
• 16:00 - 16:30 with that decision they wake up the following morning and the heralds announce we're going to March and people o people are astounded they question what's going on and just said this is the King's decision so massive logistical operation begins I suppose if you were there the scene would be in itself really quite impressive I think so if you think of 20,000 people on the Frankish side over 30,000 salad inside you armies stretch out for four miles literally and so you've got this sort of slow-moving train heading eastwards
• 16:30 - 17:00 towards Tiberias over this parched landscape and then you've got Saladin's men who are lightly armored horsemen so much more mobile than the Franks who've got heavy cavalry but a lot of footmen too and so some of Bin's men quickly swoop around to be on both sides of the franks and their way of fighting really is to is to charge up on these light horses fire arrows and wheel away back to safety so they're picking away at the edges crusading kind of gear I imagine
• 17:00 - 17:30 it kind of very clothing since I can't imagine it's massively appropriate for that landscape either I think perhaps when we think of crusading Knights we think of knights in shining armor kind of thing a lot of the Frankish army are going to be not very well trained which is also part of the issue they're people just dragged out of towns to make up the numbers their equipment maybe some chain mail or a chainmail helmet or hat and you've got to keep it on you says area sporting innit you the whole time it's just gonna
• 17:30 - 18:00 be extremely draining moving across that landscape hmm and for breathing your account of this thing that really I mean if we were sat on a hill watching this procession go out faithful as it turns out to be thing that I'd be looking out for from you from your description is the true cross which I believe is being carried along by the Franks at the same time you tell us a bit about the true cross because it's such an interesting idea for me yeah part of the great talisman for the Franks is is the true cross and after the Crusaders conquered
• 18:00 - 18:30 Jerusalem in 1099 they discovered what they believed to be part of the cross upon which Christ was crucified so a relic of inestimable value to the Christian faith and they mounted this piece of wood in it you know probably a great sort of silver housing and it has its own shrine in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre when they're going to fight battles they take it out and it's their talisman and they've taken it out a couple of dozen times by this and what seems to work always works yes you know victory or at least not defeat and then
• 18:30 - 19:00 it's processed back into Jerusalem prayers of thanks afterwards so they have their great talisman with them so as the army moves I suppose you also have to imagine this this silver cross processing fairly near the middle of it I'd have thought for safety reasons so let's let's whip through because I think people listening to this might have a bit of an idea about what's going to happen but what did happen over the next few days over the two days of the Battle of Hattin the Muslim troops picked away at the slow-moving Frankish army wore them down
• 19:00 - 19:30 this constant drums and trumpets as well that's another part of the sort of psychological warfare making this very aggressive noise all the time just to put your opponents on edge we have that in modern warfare the use of loud live bad music as a way of deterring opponents or irritating them or putting stress on them and after the first day the Franks have to basically camp out on the plateau overnight and then very cleverly the Muslims set fire to some other dried grass the wind is blowing in
• 19:30 - 20:00 the correct direction so you have smoke blowing into the parched mouths and lungs of the Franks makes it even more difficult for them all the time the Muslims have got lots of water coming up on Camelback from the Sea of Galilee there really well supplied they even pour water out in front of the Franks just to show how much they've got do you get to the second day the Franks have still got a way to go and the pressure continues with the drums that trumpets the endless attacks and morale has really wilted by this point I mean they
• 20:00 - 20:30 see this geological formation known as the horns of Hattin which is an old volcano with the rim broken which makes the two horns and the remains of the army struggles up to this this sort of volcanic kind of cup I suppose and there they decide to make their last stand some of the horsemen have disappeared a group of them charge of the Muslims two very wise they just parted and let them fly through they're not going to turn around and come back again so that was a clever way of taking the sting out of some of the Frank's best troops and in
• 20:30 - 21:00 the end they struggle up to the horns of Hattin and there there's a couple of sort of big charges down the hill they try and pick off Saladin himself which is a good idea but in the end the Kings tent falls and Saladin has won and well it just sounds to me like an absolute tactical masterclass and the further they march the more stupid the Crusaders must really look yes it's just sighs that the fact that our Army's not very well-trained morale must have disintegrated pretty quickly you're talking the mid to high 30s in terms of
• 21:00 - 21:30 temperature and you know that's by sort of late morning and you can just see the Muslims around you obviously looking excited energetic realizing that that victory is theirs it was a fairly sort of slow and painful death if you see what I mean for that army in the terms of even in the Middle Ages or the high middle ages does a Battle of Hattin really rank as one of the most significant it is one of the most significant battles of the Middle Ages not least because the scale of the defeat is such that southern is then
• 21:30 - 22:00 able to over the next few months run through the Frankish settlements picking off the vast majority of towns and cities and castles because all the defenders were at the Battle of Hattie there's almost nobody left to defend anywhere after that and so he really does absolutely remove the knighthood of the Crusader States and ghee himself what happens to him there's a very famous scene after the end of the battle Saladin sets his own tent up and he has
• 22:00 - 22:30 brought before him give Lou senior and a man called raynelle - a TA who's sort of the walk-on body of the Crusader States a very unpleasant aggressive man deeply unpleasant to Christians as well as Muslims he really was a nasty piece of work and he's a man who's upset Saladin greatly in the past he launched a raid that threatened Medina and that is a real challenge to Saladin and so these two leading franks are bought before Saladin and two G he hands a cup of iced julep a sign of
• 22:30 - 23:00 hospitality G of course his credibly thirsty drinks most of it and then hands it to Radar some didn't interrupts I did not give the cup to Renault I did not show him that hospitality and then he decides what he's going to do is rain old and almost ratcheting up the tension he goes for a ride he leaves the two francs for a little bit and goes to have a think about what he's going to do next and then he comes back to Reynolds says well you could convert to Islam which of course he's
• 23:00 - 23:30 not going to rental declines and then Saladin or his bodyguard strike Reynold and kill him on the spot hmm well this is this is high drama and I think brings to an end this first scene that we've been looking over which starts few days earlier with the Crusaders in a position of immense strength you might say well if not immense strength but at least parity I suppose in some ways there's a quote here I love that you've got which is they were tormented by the heat of war and tortured by thirst not even an
• 23:30 - 24:00 ant among them could have advanced nor could have escaped a safety the area struck in them and transform those who would seem like lions into hedgehogs I'm not quite sure who wrote that that's one of Saladin's entourage who are men of great learning their poets they're his secretaries and administrators and one of the reasons I think he's so successful is that he surrounds himself with really high quality people doesn't necessarily care about their background if you're good you come and work for me
• 24:00 - 24:30 and these men are right incredibly ornate sometimes it has to be said sit around overly ornate but they certainly enjoy using words and they're very much sort of part of Saladin's identity his identity and and also generating propaganda for him and concerned with his image and this really enables him to go on to his main aim and us to go to our second scene and this is the siege of Jerusalem and this is in September so Saladin had been had his
• 24:30 - 25:00 heart set on Jerusalem for a long time hunting yes I mean Saladin after the Battle of Hattin he is able to defeat the Franks all that many of their towns and castles and cities and move towards his real focus the focus of neuro dean his former patron and his own jihad the idea of of liberating Jerusalem for Islam so he assembles a very very large army a lot of religious men with him as well of course looking anticipating the recovery
• 25:00 - 25:30 of Jerusalem for the faith I mean Jerusalem simon seabag Montefiore says that it's the house of one god the capitol of two peoples a temple of three religions and the only City to exist twice in heaven and on earth the peerless grace of the terrestrial is as nothing to the glories of the Salah steal nice quotes and I couldn't avoid using it here but what was it like at this time I mean in a way it seems timeless Jerusalem doesn't it what would that what would have made you sighs what
• 25:30 - 26:00 did it look like how big was it it is timeless and and the walled city Jerusalem as Saladin was looking around wondering how to get into it he went up on the Mount of Olives which still do today the Sun rises behind the Mount of Olives and the wonderful sunlit panorama of the old city which still stands there see skyscrapers in the background outside it but the heart of the old city is there with the sort of sacred s Barnard with the al-aqsa mosque with the Dome of the rock these incredibly
• 26:00 - 26:30 important sites for Islam there in front of you are on that side of the city it's also then a really dense warren of medieval streets the Crusader era there were a lot of churches some of them were Catholic Latin churches an awful lot of Eastern Christian churches - Greek Orthodox see reacts and historians Armenians a very sort of polyglot population of Christians if you like within the old city but still you walk through there now and it's so atmospheric that the narrow streets the building's many churches it's a very
• 26:30 - 27:00 intense place when the Crusaders took Jerusalem in 1099 it was an incredibly brutal event wasn't it there was all sorts of slaughter and I suppose it was a is there a there's a particular story about people standing in blood up to their ankles or calves is that is that correct from 1099 it's it's a story that's put out after the first crusade I think its first Crusaders writing back to Western Europe in a sense showing the level of
• 27:00 - 27:30 success they've achieved they've purified that city of Muslims and achieved this great victory on behalf of Christendom I mean that is is in a sense is literally a sort of hype it's not a literal fact that they were wading in blood up to their knees and it's a phrase that that's used on all sorts of sides in different situations but it's a very very powerful image of Christian slaughter and there was undoubtedly in 1099 a slaughter of the Muslim and the Jewish defenders who are in the city at
• 27:30 - 28:00 the time and I'm mostly because the Christians inside might expect some kind of hostile retribution from Saladin because they're really unprotected haven't got any army which is going to come and save them at this point so if we sat up there with Saladin on the Mount of Olives which is a nice image I'll just cherish for a moment he can do really what he likes Conte but is it difficult to to take the city at this point Jerusalem has strong walls this the Citadel the Tower of
• 28:00 - 28:30 David is quite a difficult place to get into and he moves away from that quite quickly down to the northeast corner in some ways yes he has got the opportunity to decide what to do with the defenders he could put it to the sack undoubtedly and maybe some of his predecessors would have done that and I also suspect there is some pressure from some of his his holy men too perhaps in act that I suppose retribution revenge for what happened in 1099 but there's a wider wider consideration in how he should
• 28:30 - 29:00 deal with Jerusalem hmm he's left in control of Jerusalem at this point he's the figurehead that I'm the main figure is a man called Balian of Ibelin who is a nobleman and he is the man who goes out to negotiate with Saladin fairly quickly it's obvious Jerusalem is going to fall so they enter into negotiations which is what happens when medieval cities are about to fall and Balian it has a obviously a rather sort of thin hand to play shall we say and Saladin is suggesting that if the Christians don't
• 29:00 - 29:30 surrender then there will be a massacre I will massacre the men and enslave the women who says so Balian said all okay if you're if you're going to play hard so will I and unless you give us good terms this is what's going to happen I do have several thousand Muslim prisoners they will all be killed the Dome of the rock which I know is important to you will be shattered we will break up your religious sites and because we know we're going to be killed we're going to fight so hard a lot of
• 29:30 - 30:00 you are going to die in the process and Saladin and his group take that thought away and realise that really it's it's not a good thing to do do they want to be responsible in some ways for the death of a lot of Muslims of their own people do any of them want to die and they certainly don't want the destruction of their holy places so so they agree to ransom the Christians inside the holy city but in doing so they're also in effect showing mercy they could have massacred the Christians in there and mercy is a form of power
• 30:00 - 30:30 and this is something that Saladin is well aware of he is frequently not always frequently merciful because he's aware that it saves the struggle of the Muslims trying to get into the city in the first place it is a sign of power and generosity that you can deliver people's lives and he's also where that it is good reputationally he's always keen to polish his reputation so for a big range of reasons he's happy to agree to this when really quick signal of the
• 30:30 - 31:00 effect of Saladin's mercy at Jerusalem in 1187 was in 1204 when the armies of the Fourth Crusade captured and sacked the great Christian city of Constantinople and a Greek writer said look at you not Christians you massacred Christians in a Christian City couple of decades ago Saladin a Muslim spared the Christian defenders shame on you well I suppose this is the kind of stuff
• 31:00 - 31:30 he would have been turning over in his head up on Mount of Olives and you mentioned the religious significance of the Dome of the rock might just be worth pointing that out now why was this such an important site for Muslims the Dome of the rock has within it a rock upon which the Prophet began his ascent to heaven there is the sort of that the last footprint and it's housed in this gorgeous structure you often see it on television today with a big gold dome it's where TV correspondents tend to do their piece with that in the background almost as a
• 31:30 - 32:00 sort of symbol of Jerusalem and had just survived for the period of Frankish yes it had it had they turned it into a church and so it's got a lot of sort of actually Frankish decoration in parts of it and everything you mentioned is the great cross is it on top of the dome of the rock they had a great cross up there there was a great cross on top of the Dome of the rock and often when places fall that at a moment a symbolic moment at the end of the Berlin Wall perhaps that statue of Saddam Husein toppling
• 32:00 - 32:30 and when the Muslims get into Jerusalem the great cross on top of the dome Arak is toppled well and that really is ok that's the end of the Christian hold of Jerusalem well I think this is this is really if we're on the Mount of Olives for your second senior your third has to be a few days later when the cross comes tumbling down this is interesting thing here because maybe take some people by surprise the magnanimity which is shown and that's really the overriding what
• 32:30 - 33:00 should we say quality of those days isn't it yes when Saladin chooses to ransom the defenders and he's going to get a lot of money to reward his own people he decides he's not going to destroy the holy sepulcher incidentally which is another thing that was open to him but again he respects that and he realizes that it's going to be counterproductive and again when Muslims took over the city back in the seventh century that hadn't happened so he looks for the precedent back towards that so
• 33:00 - 33:30 he is very much aware of what he's doing so let's go to your third scene and so the negotiations have taken place the surrenders been agreed there's generally a policy of magnanimity they're in place and we get to the second of October 1187 and we were there on that day this really is the crowning moment of Saladin's career isn't it what's going on it is absolutely the moment that's going to put his name in hidden history forever this is the day as he formally enters Jerusalem I mean the negotiations
• 33:30 - 34:00 as you say being completed this you know it's in Muslim hands effectively this is his formal entry into the city that is carefully timed to coincide with the anniversary of the prophets Night Journey this is the sort of thing that gives his entry into the city and extra religious significance by making that date coincide Saladin is very aware of that the religious symbolism he wants to be seen as having achieved this great victory for Islam he's got divine approval for what he's
• 34:00 - 34:30 done and it's very important to him to send that message out not least because he has taken a bit of criticism over the previous 10 15 years for being out to build his own dynastic empire and while he has done that he's been consistent in saying he's doing it for his LOM now he's got Jerusalem back there you are I have divine approval you can't argue with this the first Friday prayers that are going to be held in the al-aqsa mosque for 88 years this if you like a
• 34:30 - 35:00 competition just to who should deliver the sermon and so that's again wrapped up in a great sense of ceremony it's effectively has to be done as an open-air sermon because so many people have to want to listen to it and it really is a moment of triumph for him and so his group around him with their great writing skills are churning out these missives across the Muslim Near East telling people that their man has done it and this is hugely symbolic in a
• 35:00 - 35:30 way we do have a very strong picture of him through these scenes so he comes across as an incredibly able leader as the person who first of all is very good tactically like drawing his opponents out into dangerous situation and dealing them with them very vigorously there then you also get the sense of the negotiator which has all sorts of different aspects to it you know showing mercy and showing power realizing when you've got a strong hand and realizing when a precedent should be respected and
• 35:30 - 36:00 then finally this sense of the leader having to show his own prestige that's for sure and this is really the big story were telling today's how this one man changed notions of chivalry and leadership and I think that's that's really the heart of the story in a sense for Saladin's later reputation particularly in the West it's interesting at that at the moment when he recovers Jerusalem in one way he's dealt Christianity the most savage blow possible I mean the Pope is supposed to have died of a heart attack when he
• 36:00 - 36:30 heard the news yet in sparing the Christians in 1187 in contrast to what the Christians did to the Muslims in 1099 he's laid a real foundation stone for his reputation for his esteem in Western Europe forever and I think the Knights of Western Europe were always assimilating that and it sounds contrasting it with with their own behavior I mean the fall of Jerusalem will trigger the Third Crusade he knows the moment he goes in there the West will
• 36:30 - 37:00 respond very few of the meet Saladin Richard and Saladin never met a lot of the dealings of with Saladin's brother who we call suffered in and I sometimes wonder if the Western image is a bit of a blend of Saladin and Safford in together but they're certainly sharing the attributes of generosity courtesy gift-giving almost competitive gift-giving my gift is finer than yours no no mine's behinds better than that a love of music poetry courtesy towards
• 37:00 - 37:30 women particularly female prisoners and Western Europe sees this behavior and it's everything that it likes about its own Knights Knights want to act like that and so they see something that rather than being this at a terrible enemy is something that they can respect very very quickly hmm you've got another quote here which says the king must be inclined to mercy in his rule for he has the power to do whatever he wishes no one earns fame and good repute in the world for injustice and evil but rather
• 37:30 - 38:00 for right conduct and mercy he who is dominated by anger is like the demons but he who is merciful and shows forbearance resembles the prophets and this is completely contemporary quote at the time of the taking of Jerusalem and it suggests to me that it had an impact which was very quickly absorbed into the culture that was around there at the time I suppose if we were talking about this as a sack of Jerusalem in 1187 it would be a very different story wouldn't
• 38:00 - 38:30 it that we're talking about today the consequences probably may have been similar in some ways that would still have been another crusade to recapture what had happened but you do get at the same time the sense that something changed at that moment is that right had Saladin massacred the defenders of Jerusalem in 1187 undoubtedly his perception in the West would have been very very different in sparing the Christians in the holy city he laid a cornerstone a foundation stone that
• 38:30 - 39:00 really could not be shaken it's something that the Knights of Western Europe will forever admire that he had it in his power to kill those Christians and he showed mercy in doing so he's following some of the advice books that are around in the eleventh twelfth century Near East but basically mercy is a former power defined to such since classical times and Saladin is aware of power of mercy that the propaganda value of mercy the reputational value of mercy and the practical value because he saved himself
• 39:00 - 39:30 a lot of trouble in making those decisions but if he'd massacred the defenders in 1187 yes his reputation in the West however he came across in the course of the Third Crusade would nowhere near have the standing that it does but this moment here we're talking about so October 2nd 1187 this is the high point for him isn't it this is Saladin at his best a moment of glory misses his great achievement for his faith and he could
• 39:30 - 40:00 do nothing more for it in in a sense other than actually defend it because he will inevitably face the Third Crusade and I suppose having recovered Jerusalem his next task is then to hold on to it because having triggered something that will be an enormous response from the West he's going to then spend the remaining six years of his life first of all in a sort of slightly waiting for the bomb to drop phase knowing that Western Europe will come at him and then two or three years of incredibly tough
• 40:00 - 40:30 arduous fighting holding on to his position in the near East and I think it's fair to say while the Third Crusade makes some holdings for the Christians on the coast in the end they go away and if you're looking at sort of Saladin just in the last few months of his life you say well okay they've got some places on the coast back but I still have Jerusalem well I think that's a really good place to leave the time travels because we've you know we've sat by the Sea of Galilee and watch the army assemble we've sat on the Mount of
• 40:30 - 41:00 Olives and watch the negotiations take place so I think that is a pretty epic story but it's it's a really intriguing character at the heart of it we now have a few supplementary questions which I'm going to spring on you first of all and I'm Maddon if you've been warned about this but I'm going to ask you if you could bring one object back for this moment in history - today is there anything particular you'd like to bring back in our time machine with you I suppose I could say the true cross but that's probably a bit of a station so
• 41:00 - 41:30 let me I shouldn't say that could happen in your office in Royal Holloway I could peaceful bargaining is that gonna fall into the changing history kind of thing what would I like um anything if I could bring something back with me it might be one or two of Saladin's poetry collection I'd be intrigued to learn what he had in his possession and it would be interesting for me to be able to understand what it was that he had around him in terms of his entourage and the people near him well if it was a bit
• 41:30 - 42:00 more selfish he could give me one of his wonderful ropes of honour because he's always dishing out robes of honour to people and these are wonderful silken objects and more selfishly perhaps I'd like one of them oh well do you good for the book - I suppose anyway and you can tell us a bit more about the book now say salt and Saladin is your book it's gonna be published very very soon so what have you tried to do in this book and why is it and how is it different should I say to the other books about Saladin that are already out there what I tried to do is to describe sabatons
• 42:00 - 42:30 life to understand how he achieved what he achieved but also I wanted to follow his afterlife I was in Damascus in 2009 walking down the street and I saw an advert for salad in the ballet who can resist and and I went in and watched it and it was a major event in the downtown Opera House in Damascus and it was a celebration of his achievements and it got me thinking as to I know this was 2009 what a powerful memory that still is but I wanted to sort of see how that
• 42:30 - 43:00 memory had survived down the centuries what twists and turns had it taken and how was the Saladin dance performance in Damascus would it be recommended it was a very interesting cultural event I'm not sure I'm a convert to dance music or solving ballets or things like that but it really was a you know powerful dynamic performance well there we go I think he obviously as a historical character was incredibly influential and as you say retaking Jerusalem is
• 43:00 - 43:30 you know in the in the history of the Middle Ages one of these key events and if anyone wants to explore this idea much more thoroughly I'd recommend your book which is out right now and is full of interesting things not just the history but as we said the legend as well thank you very much for talking to us today Jonathan thank you very much indeed well that was me talking with Jonathan Phillips about 1187 the holy city of Jerusalem and most of all Sultan
• 43:30 - 44:00 Saladin just the other day thank you for listening and I hope you enjoyed our conversation and if you do want to explore in much more detail things that we were talking about the battles the personality is the effect this cult of personality has had on the Middle East in the thousand years or so since I'd really recommend Jonathan's books a wonderful one to explore and I really enjoyed reading it if you've enjoyed the show of course we'd like you to subscribe so you get the first news of the next episode as soon as it becomes
• 44:00 - 44:30 available our next episode is gonna be out in a fortnight as ever and it's gonna be with the literary historian lucasta Miller he's taking us back to the scene of a 19th century murder a bit of a literary cover-up she's exposed so that's really really worth listening out for but from me and for now that's it thank you very much again for listening and good bye I'm Paul Bley the editor of
• 44:30 - 45:00 history today on our website you'll find articles written by experts relating to Jonathan Phillips travels you can read Norman house Leon Saladin's time for the Battle of Hattin Robert early looks at how Islam saw the Christian invaders while Jonathan Phillips himself offers a complete history of the Crusades links to all of these pieces can be found at WWE history today forward slash travels
• 45:00 - 45:30 and there are many more articles on every aspect of the past in our multi publication history today the world's leading series History Magazine you