Is ETH Back? Memecoins Here to Stay? HYPE's HyperLiquid EVM | Jon, Bread, & Andy8052

Summary

Highlights

• Andy8052 shares his playful and strategic approach to crypto trends. 🏌️‍♂️
• ZeroX and Bread Guy discuss the implications of Ethereum's new initiative and its impact on layer 2 solutions. 🚀
• Jon and Bread debate the technical aspects and potential longevity of Ethereum over Bitcoin. ⚡
• The unexpected rise of Solana in Andy's trading activities is explored, showcasing shifts in trader preferences. 🌊
• The perpetual allure of memecoins is likened to a long-lasting casino game, highlighting their sticky nature. 🎲

Key Takeaways

• Ethereum's new tagline may revive its credibility if successful, potentially altering the landscape. 📈
• The destinies of layer 2 solutions are mixed, with some facing potential obsolescence if Ethereum prevails. 💡
• Memecoins have surprising staying power in the crypto world, akin to a casino game that never quite goes out of style. 🎰
• HYPE's HyperLiquid EVM offers innovative potential, blending traditional and decentralized finance. 🔥
• Human psychology and fun remain at the core of crypto engagement, drawing parallels to age-old gambling habits. 🎲

Overview

Chapters

• 00:00 - 00:30: Welcome and Guest Introduction This chapter serves as an introduction to the special format of this Bankless podcast episode. It welcomes three guests for a discussion on various intriguing topics. The chapter highlights the first guest, Andy 8052, who offers a unique perspective on society's inclination towards gambling and financialization. Unlike many who view this trend as a moral hazard, Andy sees it as an opportunity, describing him as someone who enjoys engaging with the crypto community on Twitter.
• 00:30 - 03:00: Discussion on Ethereum Pivot Tagline This chapter discusses the humorous and light-hearted introductions during a discussion on Ethereum's pivot tagline. The conversation includes playful banter, focusing on a guest known for playing golf and having a notable presence on Twitter without any critics. The speaker is referred to as the 'pinkcoated educator with notable glutes,' emphasizing a community figure in the Ethereum space known by the moniker ZeroX bread guy. The transition to a less serious tone sets a friendly and inclusive atmosphere for the ensuing discussion on Ethereum.
• 03:00 - 08:00: Debate on L2s and Ethereum Layer 1 Scaling The chapter titled 'Debate on L2s and Ethereum Layer 1 Scaling' begins with an informal conversation among participants, humorously mentioning one being an active presence on Twitter and another being a prolific writer of comprehensive research papers over the weekend. The discussion sets the stage for the week's main topic concerning Ethereum's layer 1 and layer 2 scaling solutions, with a hint of critical evaluation on Ethereum's current strategies and challenges. There is an emphasis on the evolving narrative of Ethereum while alluding to potential changes or the need for adaptation. The introduction concludes with a teaser about Ethereum's pivot and ongoing questions about Ether's (ETH) position or strategy.
• 08:00 - 13:00: Memecoins and On-chain Casinos This chapter titled 'Memecoins and On-chain Casinos' discusses several topics pertinent to the crypto world. It begins with a discussion on whether Ethereum (ETH) is involved in certain developments. The conversation transitions to the decline of Longtail layer 2 solutions, providing insights into their waning prominence. It also delves into the activities of Andy, who is engaged in important groundwork in the crypto space. The chapter concludes with a hypothetical debate about a 'gorilla versus 100 men' scenario, highlighting the kind of quirky questions that circulate on crypto Twitter and beyond. Additionally, the chapter appreciates the gathering of distinct podcast voices, aiming to dissect the latest trends in the crypto sphere.
• 16:00 - 19:00: Infinex and Fra Finance Segment The chapter discusses a tweet highlighted by HB, identified by the speaker's partner, Ryan Sean Adams, during conversations with the executive directors of EF. The tweet revolves around the Ethereum pivot and its tagline: 'scale the layer one, scale blobs, improve UX.' These ideas are considered impactful and are believed to potentially restore Ethereum's credibility, marking the beginning of its revival.
• 19:00 - 21:00: Mantle Innovation and Finance Segment The chapter discusses a previous conversation between John, Brett, and the speaker, with Andy being absent due to illness. They revisit the topic regarding the possible tagline for ETH. John expresses strong support for the proposed tagline, rating it 10 out of 10. He also agrees with a tweet from Steve suggesting that if they can restore credibility, it would be significant.
• 21:00 - 30:00: ETH Value Accrual and Smart Contract Platforms The chapter discusses the concepts of value accrual with a focus on Ethereum and its associated asset, ETH. It touches upon the strategic priorities regarding scaling, emphasizing an interesting perspective on potentially prioritizing Layer 1 (L1) scaling over other methods such as scaling blobs. This focus on L1 scaling is highlighted as a preference and noted as a point of contention among experts in the field.
• 49:00 - 50:00: Self Identity Verification Protocol The chapter titled 'Self Identity Verification Protocol' discusses issues in the Ethereum network, focusing on user experience improvements and misunderstandings about certain network components. It highlights how some people, including influential figures like the creator of DeFi Llama, are unaware of the proper functioning and purpose of 'blobs' in the Ethereum network. Blobs are stored in the consensus layer and are not directly used by L1 users as current wallets do not support transactions utilizing blobs on the mainnet. Therefore, it is not an L1 user issue at present. The chapter underscores the need for better communication and understanding regarding network protocols.
• 50:00 - 58:00: HyperLiquid and Opportunity in Hype EVM The chapter discusses the role of roll-ups in Ethereum scaling, with some expressing skepticism about their value but acknowledging their importance for directional guidance in Layer 2 solutions. Discussions touch on criticism from Ethereum detractors, pointing out their tendency to emphasize negatives even as Ethereum scales with new technologies like blobs.
• 58:00 - 65:00: 100 Men vs 1 Gorilla Debate The chapter delves into the ongoing debate of '100 Men vs 1 Gorilla' within the crypto community, metaphorically discussing the challenges faced by Ethereum and its layer 2 solutions. The dialogue captures a sense of frustration over the perceived impossibility of winning in the crypto space, with specific mentions of personalities like 'Mert' and the DeFi Llama contributors who are noted for their neutral stance.
• 65:00 - 70:00: Conclusion and Feedback Request This chapter discusses the implications of scaling Layer 1 (L1) blockchain protocols on Layer 2 (L2) solutions. The conversation highlights that improving L1 scalability could diminish the user base of certain L2s, as the enhanced L1 might become the preferred platform for high-value decentralized finance (DeFi) applications. This shift could potentially reduce the necessity of some L2s unless they adapt or offer unique value propositions beyond what an optimized L1 can offer.

Is ETH Back? Memecoins Here to Stay? HYPE's HyperLiquid EVM | Jon, Bread, & Andy8052 Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 Welcome Bankless Nation to a differently styled podcast on the Bankless Feed. I want to welcome three guests onto this podcast as we discuss, deliberate, debate, and dissect the topics that we all find interesting. First up, some people are wary of society's trend towards gambling and financialization. But where some see moral hazard, this man sees opportunity. By day, he's on the couch scrolling crypto Twitter, and by night, well, he's still there. the only person on crypto Twitter actually having any fun. Andy 8052, it's good to
• 00:30 - 01:00 see you. Happy to be here. Thanks for having me. Also, sometimes on the day I am playing golf. That that is He sometimes plays golf. He sometimes plays golf. Bringing up the middle. If you haven't seen his ass, you're not in the right circles. The person that did the impossible somehow not having a single hater on Twitter. The pinkcoated educator with glutenous glutes. The mega ass of Mega ETH. ZeroX bread guy. Welcome back. Thanks for having me. that intro. I actually thought you were going to go to John and I just had missed his ass picture. So, you know, maybe
• 01:00 - 01:30 sometime in the future. Yeah. Yeah. No, you're the only one with an ass on Twitter right now. And then bringing up the rear, the crypto's chief lowercase R researcher, the man who will write a 90page research paper over the weekend because it was fun. We've all read his long AF research papers only to conclude that nothing's real and we should all buy Bitcoin. John Charbano, how you doing? Great to be back on. How's it going? Pretty excited for this episode, guys. So, the topics that we've got lined up for this week, the Ethereum pivot has a tagline, but what about ETH?
• 01:30 - 02:00 Is ETH coming along for that? We want to talk about the death of Longtail layer 2s. We're going to talk about a little bit of what Andy's doing in the trenches. And then we're going to finish off with one gorilla versus 100 men, a crucial question to this era of crypto Twitter. And I think actually this is just gone out onto the internet broadly. Uh first off, uh honored to have you guys here. Uh I think everyone has been a podcaster in of their own right separately. and bring in these uh three podcasts to the table just to kind of go through uh the weekly the weekly meta. Uh so let's start here. I'm going to
• 02:00 - 02:30 start sharing my screen to a tweet that HB tweeted out which uh coincidentally was something that my partner Ryan Sean Adams also identified when we uh talked to the two recent executive directors co-eds of the EF. This idea of the Ethereum pivot tagline, the tagline for the Ethereum pivot, scale the layer one, scale blobs, improve UX. Three easy to remember ideas. Seems like it lands a punch. Uh and then H finishes off with his tweet here. If they can pull this off and buy back some credibility. This may be the beginning of the ETH revival.
• 02:30 - 03:00 Let's see. Now, I think this uh topic was the uh the subject between um John and Brett and I last week when Andy, you were a bit sick. Missed you having you back then. Uh, so maybe we can just pick off where that episode left. Uh, John, I'll throw throw this one to you. How do you feel about this tagline for ETH? On the scale of possible taglines, how do you feel about this one? I love it. I mean, I I'll give it a 10 out of 10. Um, and and I do agree with Steve's tweet there. Like, if they can pull this off um and actually get back credibility on this, like this would be a meaningful
• 03:00 - 03:30 turn for me both for Ethereum and for ETH as the asset like most likely to me. Uh the the one thing that I saw like as interesting on it too is I don't know if I'm reading too much into this, but the ordering of it was it was scale the L1 before scale blobs, which was just an interesting note. Um and that like that is a nuance that I'm sure a lot of people would fight over if that like actually is the listed priorities. Um I that that would actually be my preference is actually to focus more on scaling the layer one. Um but that was one of the things that I picked off as like really liking in there. Um and then
• 03:30 - 04:00 throwing in the improve UX is yeah like obviously Ethereum should be doing more of that. It's great. Some people miss the blobs entirely, right? Like I I saw ox ngmi famously the creator of DeFi llama. He's like so this is rugging the rollup road map, right? Like he like they missed that nuance of saying that uh yeah like that goes towards like no one on the L1 uses blobs, right? The the blobs are stored in the consensus layer. You literally can't even submit a transaction that utilizes blobs on mainet with a wallet cuz the wallets don't support it. So like it's it's not a an L1 user thing. It cannot be an L1 user thing today. Uh
• 04:00 - 04:30 so that is explicitly for for roll-ups. I personally think it should be dep prioritized, but I think it's good to have some directional stuff there for for L2s. I don't I just I just don't see it as like a a great value accreative thing, but it's good to have that signal there for for everyone. Yeah. And some people were responding to that tweet from Zerox NGMI saying, "Look, Ethereum detractors, Ethereum haters will find a way to always just be negative about Ethereum." It's like, oh, like we're going to scale blobs, but even the Ethereum haters will find a way to say like, oh, now now Ethereum is doing the
• 04:30 - 05:00 thing that everyone asked it to, but now it's also rugging layer 2s. And so there's some frustration out of the Ethereum community saying like there's no way to win. There's no way to win here. There's never any way to win in crypto. Isn't he a neat guy? Like he's got a zero X at the start of his name. Yeah, I think so does Mert though. That's fair. Yeah, I feel like the DeFi Llama guys kind of uh they fairly will talk [ __ ] about anything which I I respect. Yeah, they're pretty neutral. Yeah.
• 05:00 - 05:30 Yeah. But like I think it's worth talking about because like you know you mentioned the long tale of L2s and how that might actually look, right? Like that was the when we say this move to scale the L1 like that is kind of rugging the L2s because like yeah you're going to take you're going to take users away from some L2s right you're going to be the place to go to for highv value DeFi you know it's going to be uh habitable for for some applications and we talked about that it's like yeah like like some of those L2s probably
• 05:30 - 06:00 shouldn't exist right like that's actually going to happen if if you weren't meaningfully different from mainet it's like tough cookie right you're like you're probably going to die And Ethereum will acrew more value because of that, right? Because it actually has direct users interacting on the thing. Acrewing fees, you know, we don't like to value things based on fees, but like you're going to need that if you're going to try to to be a smart contract platform. I I believe that like even for the SCOP component of it. Um so yeah, like this probably is going to lead to some L2s uh withering from the vine, but it's necessary. I actually did
• 06:00 - 06:30 some numbers today and saw that there's several L2s, I think four right now, that are all actually at a net loss purely on onchain profit. So like the the cost it takes to post down to L1 uh versus how much they're generating in fees from user activity, they're negative. Tao's all the way down to 5 million in the negative, right? So it's like uh that's a crazy figure, right? And it's like some of these teams are going to have to shut down at some point if they lose even more activity to to a stronger mainet. Yeah. I mean the my feeling on it is like if mainet doing
• 06:30 - 07:00 this means you have to shut down you were going to have to shut down anyways and this is just like accelerating that process like probably your L2 is dead regardless and so like yeah I guess it sucks but it's not their fault. Yeah. I think as soon as there became like some mania about launching layer 2s there there became this like thing where like oh what do we do next? Let's launch a layer 2. as soon as that like meta happened, this outcome was also destined to happen because if you were just launching a layer 2 because that's what
• 07:00 - 07:30 is in the meta, that means you're not launching, you're not launching it for a real purpose. You're doing it just for to like pump the token. And so as soon as that meta set in then there was ultimately going to be like a reckoning for layer 2s because we just had too many layer 2 hit the market. Y the thing that I haven't seen, have you guys seen this at all of has anyone from a major L2 that is undoubtedly successful and like you feel pretty good that they're going to have a spot even with ETH L1 scaling? I haven't seen like anyone important from those types of places coming out and saying, "Hey, like we
• 07:30 - 08:00 really don't like this that you're competing with us." Like I I haven't seen any of that. And that like that's kind of the test to me is like the people who should feel secure, they all seem fine with it. Like yeah, if you're the last L2 and you can't get users, you like should shut down probably. Alex from ZK Sync has been pounding the drum. I saw uh my tweet that said like, "Yeah, like you were going to die, you're going to die anyways." Like I got a like from Jesse on that. So, he kind of he kind of was signaling some of that. Um yeah, I I would say anyone that's that's firmly in the like we're trying something new,
• 08:00 - 08:30 novel, different camp has been in favor of it. The question is like I know like we had talked last week that you know the the vision for Ethereum was like okay you're going to have a thousand million jillion L2s. Um what do you still see that future if Ethereum is trying to take a more dominant position within the ecosystem and actually own some use cases? Do you still think hey we're going to get enough of these L2s that come out that actually will acrue value in the same way or we expect more direct uh value because a portion of that the longtail is actually just going
• 08:30 - 09:00 to live on L1. I know I asked this question to um Andrew from conduit uh and also Georgios about like hey how many L2s do you think that they are there there will be in the future and their answer was there will be an amount of layer 2s that correlates to the demand for compute um and I think there is uh and like the idea is you could spin up an ephemeral layer 2 a layer 2 that you know spins up and then goes away in a week if there's a momentary demand for compute from some for some reason some game existed some game popped up something um but what's been
• 09:00 - 09:30 happening like over the last two years during like the layer 2 mania where everyone was launching layer 2 is like they tried to frontr run future demand that actually ended up not being there and so if there's going to be a million layer 2s it's going to be responsive to demand it's going to be a reaction to demand not trying to like supply net new block space uh into the market and John what were you going to say I was going to say yeah I I don't think that like ETH L1 doing any scaling is ever going to shift whatever the long run outcome is of like how many chains are we going to need um because I I mean today I
• 09:30 - 10:00 don't think that we actually need a lot of chains. It is just people with experimenting with different flavors of serving mostly the same kind of handful of use cases. The world where you end up with a lot of chains in the long run is where you like you actually need them for different applications and yeah, you're spinning them up, you know, taking them down quickly. They're like very very high scale. It's that's just a completely different thing than what Ethereum L1 is like actually trying to do here and is ever going to do. And so like it's never going to encroach on that market if it ever exists. It's just that the practical reality today is the long tale of chains today isn't serving
• 10:00 - 10:30 these like unique highcale use cases. They're they're just like another EVM blockchain with like 1second block times that does the same stuff like that. That's all the stuff that gets cannibalized. It's just that the longtail today isn't actually really justified. Um if you have a justifiable long tail of chains in the future, then like ETH1 can't compete with that. Like it never will. Yeah. And it's like we already have fast L1 chains that exist and that hasn't totally made every other L1 chain that could ever exist obsolete. I think I I'd love to be a fly on the wall inside of optimism. Uh because I've
• 10:30 - 11:00 always thought the optimism business model as a chain, you know, building the super chain, building interrop inside of the super chain, taking a 10% rake of all of the fees of every superchain chain was is actually the business model that Ethere that people wanted Ethereum to be itself. And optimism in the chain model was kind of just like running interception on like what Ethereum was trying to be, but it was using, you know, uh like more central coordination, more centralized coordination around the optimism superchain in order to achieve
• 11:00 - 11:30 the Ethereum vision for itself inside of its more siloed siloed gate. And so like while optimism, you know, the optimism mainet has never been really elevated and prioritized by the optimism product, they've always tried to be like the super chain and like you know base is part of the super chain, world chain is part of the super chain and these are literally the biggest layer 2s out there. Uh but I would like I it would be interesting to see like discussions from the optimism side of things because to me they've built a microcosm of the larger Ethereum system and out out of
• 11:30 - 12:00 the weakness of the layer 1 uh is why like there was so much demand for that and like even arbitrum and and ZKY all were all trying to like race for that same vision of a unified network of chains that Ethereum couldn't produce because it didn't figure out interop and it didn't have the layer one scale. Uh John, what's your take on that? I still don't think this is going to change any of that. Uh like the the services and level of tech that they need to build there are still a different gap from what Ethereum is
• 12:00 - 12:30 going to be doing here. I mean like part of it particularly for optimism is literally like it's it's shared governance and management of a bridge contract. I like I mean you could you can argue that the native role of stuff will like eventually encroach on like some of that but I think that's just like a better product and it's years away and it is sort of different. Um, and then a lot of the more like opinionated technical linder up, I mean, if any of these chains do end up going into like some form of whether like shared sequencing, shared building, whatever, I mean, like Ethereum isn't going to be competing on that. Um, it really is just trying to take back that,
• 12:30 - 13:00 you know, hey, we should be able to service like general use cases here um, of like a typical good chain. And I I don't view that as mostly encroaching on what they're kind of doing there. Mhm. This was actually kind of my I had I had a debate with um Alex again ZK Sync back in the day because like it's always always the the bickering on timeline is about value acrruel, right? So it's like having that discussion with him is like oh cool we can handle the compute of the entire world like yeah cool but does value go back to Ethereum, right? Like that's what anyone cares about and then he like he would talk about oh how this actually drives value to the the single
• 13:00 - 13:30 token ZK sync and does stuff. I was like yeah but like where how does that get back to Ethereum? How does Ethereum gain in that world? which is kind of frustrating for me as someone that like and maybe just everyone broadly. It's like you see so much goodwill energy going into all of this stuff and people are like, "Oh yeah, man. We're we're building, we're doing the mission, we're executing, we're creating this interoperable world that can that can like onboarding the world to this quote unquote Ethereum stuff, but it's like if it doesn't drive value back to ETH token, like you're just not going to have people that are excited, happy, or okay with the outcome." Like, I'm sorry.
• 13:30 - 14:00 like that like and I know like the last few weeks has been a lot of like trying to make sure there's a clear delineation between ETH the asset and ETH the technology and the culture and the ethos and stuff. Um I think you you really got to marry those two things and th those interop stacks which have a central token at the hub of all those things right that like that's the counterveilling forces that's like these people have incentive to drive value to their token which kind of guides their decisions away from driving value directly to Ethereum the asset and that
• 14:00 - 14:30 has always been the critique of going down this road map is you just in insert a bunch of incentives between these teams the manh hours they're putting in and then ETH the asset going up. Yeah. It's like death by a thousand cuts kind of of small little tokens carving out a billion dollars of market cap over and over and over again that could theoretically be a cruel to ETH or you know speculation in ETH which is why I I'm continuing to push that like if I'm I'm joining John's camp here like we we just need to accept that these are all
• 14:30 - 15:00 separate chains like we need you I'm almost getting rid I'm going to try to get rid of the L1 L2 conversation because like whenever you just view them all as separate chains with their own incentives with their own motivations and like Ethereum the the team the researchers everyone they can only defend as far as Ethereum the actual chain goes right like that's the the end of their domain you like you can only do so much to that point then from there it's just like people are going to do their own thing to drive value to their own pockets and do their because like on a long enough time horizon that's just how this stuff tends to trend so it's
• 15:00 - 15:30 like yeah make sure that you're in a dominant position within your sphere try to provide some services stuff if this is the long-term tail but like don't prioritize that stuff for giving yourself the value again to the properties that you have like centers resistance livveness all that stuff. Yeah, totally. And I think like even talking about why L2s became so popular and kind of that like fad phase of like, oh, we're going to launch an L2 is, you know, if it was as easy to launch a layer 1 as it was to launch an L2 using some of these like roll up as a service
• 15:30 - 16:00 things, they probably would have been L1's. they probably wouldn't have been L2s, but it was just like the easiest way to do things and they had like some amount of value alignment, you know, BS that they could say. And so, like I I totally agree. They're just their own chain with their own incentives trying to, you know, make their company or their token valuable and the L2 just at the point in time where they launched it was probably the path of least resistance. You may have already heard about Infinex. Infinex has, in my opinion, the nicest crosschain swap and
• 16:00 - 16:30 bridge feature that you will find anywhere. It is called Switch Swap and Bridge, and we're going to show you what it looks like. First, we're going to log into my Infinex account with a pass key. Now, there's no seed phrases in Infinex. This is a one-click setup with biometric pass keys, but in addition to that, my Infinex account is fully non-custodial. So, bam, I just logged in. It was two clicks, and I'm already into my Infinex account. So, let's go make a switch. I'm going to go switch my USDC that is on base and I'm going to buy Barachchain which is a completely different chain.
• 16:30 - 17:00 Uh so we're going to switch this. I'm going to press that button and then Infinex is going to execute this order, this crosschain order for me. And now it is done. But actually I'm not really feeling bearish anymore. So I'm going to go from Barra uh to Penguins. I'm going to buy a Penguin on Salana. So I'm going from the Barra chain to Salana. See, no transaction signing, no gas to worry about. You just switch across whatever chain that you want with Infinex. That was so easy. Go check out Infinex and try your first switch today. In the wild west of DeFi, stability and innovation are everything, which is why you should check out FRA Finance, the protocol
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• 18:30 - 19:00 bridging crypto into your daily life. Finally, Mantle X blends AI with DeFi to deliver an intelligent, user-friendly experience for everyone. And the best part is that this is all in addition to their already launched products like Mantle Network, ME, and FBTC. Ready to step into the future of finance? Follow Mantle on X at Mantle official and join the onchain revolution today. When it comes to the conversation of ETH value acrruel, I think anyone can kind of it's a little bit of a roar jock test. Uh, and I think we actually have three interesting different perspectives uh here on the table today. Like John, I'll
• 19:00 - 19:30 put in the uh like technical rationalism camp. Uh Andy, I'll I'll put in the trader camp where if he's having fun and making money on a particular chain, he's bullish on that particular chain. Doesn't really like stay on the on the left curve side of that bell curve. You don't have to think about it too hard. If having fun, then bullish on the layer one. Uh bread, I don't know exactly where where bread falls uh on this. maybe somewhere a little bit closer to John. Um, but then there's also the camp that uh we've seen uh from Sam Casmanian
• 19:30 - 20:00 and also Ryan Sean Adams of people just saying, "Hey, just talk about the asset in a reserve asset uh global reserve asset context and like meme that into existence." And I'm seeing a little bit of just like the blind man feeling the elephant. Like everyone's kind of seeing this one shape. And now, you know, depending on what your bias is, what your interpretation is. You have a different explanation as to like why ETH is the way that it is and not the way that it's not. Um Brad, what do you think about this? Uh I'm accepting of So, I listened to Sam's podcast on you
• 20:00 - 20:30 had to the day. It was great. Um I agree that if you aim to achieve higher um valuations like in the realm of a Bitcoin or beyond even where Ethereum is today, you have to have people that buy into this like sovereign money like ownership digital oil. Like you have to have that belief. But I do not think the path to get there is just to be like Bitcoin's a special special snowflake. You like they've done it. They have the hard cap. They have this story that they can tell. A smart contract platform
• 20:30 - 21:00 cannot do that. I think you need you need fees to generate like the basil level of like bullishness for a chain and then if you maintain the properties or display properties that are even more powerful than that again censorship resistance maximum decentralization all this stuff you allow like a subset of the community to dream higher and tell the story of oh you guys are looking at fees but look at all this other stuff we can do right like all nation states are willing to participate on this chain because we've shown that we've defended against tornado cash right like we've shown that it's incredibly neutral for all of time and can stand up against other nation states Right? It's all this
• 21:00 - 21:30 stuff. So you let like you need the basil level of activity and excitement and fees generated to like get like just like a again a basil level of uh valuation for the thing and then you let others dream bigger by displaying the moneyiness properties which is a byproduct of being useful. I don't think it is something you can just like straight up say oh we're money don't worry about it and then like everyone's just going to come to come because you have rational people step in and go what are you talking about like you guys were making a bunch of fees you're not making a bunch of fees and then like you get in the argument about that stuff. So I think yeah that's my general position.
• 21:30 - 22:00 You need a blend of the two. I think path dependency is matters. So you think you're saying like a we need a strong layer one with strong layer one fundamental value acrruel. Something that would appease the John Sharpos of the world and then we can take that to the Ryan Sean Adams of the world and say hey here's the foundation that you have to leverage to turn this into what Ryan is calling like the blue money cult basically. Yeah. Because like you John was pointing out you can't do the DCF on these things and come to a rational valuation. You just can't, right? Like uh so but you need that to a degree for
• 22:00 - 22:30 people like him to build some investor confidence so people can actually do the DCF stuff, right? Oh, do hey there's yield coming. There's like all this stuff I can do and like you guys aren't seeing the the bigger picture because it's yes this much on DCF but also did you know these properties? Do you see what's coming down the the pipe with Russia wants to do an exchange with China and they can only do it on Ethereum layer 1 because it's the only thing that's credibly neutral. They're going to buy this thing because they have to do it here. So like let these people tell the story on top of the the actual DCF stuff. I just I think you need the blend. Yeah. So I I think you
• 22:30 - 23:00 actually need to focus less on the economics if you want ETH to have a shot at the at like winning as the sovereign money kind of thing. So I like I I I agreed with a lot of what Sam had talked about in there of uh that kind of the focus on stuff like the burn over the past few years and the ultrasound money thing was the wrong focus. I mean like I have very openly said like I think that that that was the wrong focus. I mean that was for a mix of reasons. I think that the burn is less important than you know just capturing the valley in the first place. Um, but but then also like so so much of the argument of why ETH is
• 23:00 - 23:30 better money than Bitcoin that most Ethereum people try to harp on is all economics based. And I think that fundamentally you cannot win that argument. I I do not think that and like I I saw this in uh like Ryan's latest post to of like digital gold plus yield. Like I I think you can say these things if you want. Um I I don't think that anything economic based can ever be the core pitch of like why ETH is better money than Bitcoin. I think that is game that you will you will just always lose. If you are going to have any shot at ETH
• 23:30 - 24:00 uh like actually being able to flip Bitcoin or or any or any other asset that like is actually trying to take this shot at non-s sovereign money. I think you need to win it in just a totally differentiated way. And what that very simply looks like to me is that you just are the winning tech platform. like everything is built on Ethereum and naturally like you are the most like you are the obvious just like censorship resistant programmable asset at the center of that ecosystem. Um and then you hope that that puts you in a good position because I I I don't think
• 24:00 - 24:30 that like ETH will ever be able to like stand in an argument against Bitcoin and say like you know pitch black rockck like hey because of these qualities let's burn whatever we have economics like this is better than Bitcoin. They don't care like they just want the predictability this is digital gold like that's fine that wins this bucket. Um the the only shot that I think that you have at winning is being really really differentiated of like this is the usable programmable money and like everything is built on us. And then the the other half of it is I think that it is still entirely Bitcoin's game to lose. Um like if Bitcoin just manages to
• 24:30 - 25:00 figure out rollup scaling and like manages to deal with just like the quantum risk in a few years as like in like some manageable way and like figures out the security budget. I honestly don't think there's anything that any chain can do um to compete with Bitcoin. I think that like what you need to do if you're just going to best position yourself is like when does the tech platform get everything built on you, everyone is using your asset, like you're kind of right in the middle of that and then you kind of honestly just like hope that Bitcoin just like kind of drops the ball and then you're naturally the best positioned after that. Um, and I think that also sets you up in the
• 25:00 - 25:30 best kind of like fallback scenario anyway of I think that's naturally what will maximize your cash flows anyway. Um, so I I think it ends up looking very similar like what do you actually prioritize to do this is like I think I think that it is a lot of like L1 scaling stuff that's just going to produce additional cash flows. It's just like what what is the pitch and the prioritization that I think is going to matter more in the long run to like give you a shot at winning. I I think it's less of like Ryan's article about like we need to talk about ETH more. Um cuz that that was the main thing I disagreed
• 25:30 - 26:00 with him in there is like he said in there like ETH uh isn't lagging because of tech. It's because the conviction um is like all all like sharted and mixed up that that I disagree with. Um I think it has lagged because the ecosystem itself has like fallen behind a bit on usage versus others and so that like the probability of you know how big is this Ethereum thing going to be like has naturally shrunk. Um if I if I was like super convinced that Ethereum was actually going to win as you know this is going to be the big smart contract platform like all the rollups are going to be built on here like I I think ETH will go up. um because your your your
• 26:00 - 26:30 probability of that happening I think would have to go up pretty meaningfully. Yeah, I think we're saying the same thing. Mine mine was not to like focus on the messaging being the technical stuff. I think you build for the tech platform, talk about the moneyiness, right? I think that's like that's what I have that frame in my mind like you have to build for the usefulness which brings the fees which generates that stuff but then you have to talk about yeah why you're a better thing than than Bitcoin even though like yeah that's a hard battle to fight but um yeah I think even in the what you talk about you talk less about the economics than people do today. I think you even talk about that less too. I I think you talk about how
• 26:30 - 27:00 this is the best tech platform and then we are the natural like we are the programmable asset at the core of the winning tech platform. Like I I think that is higher in the messaging than the economics are better. Like even when you're pitching Black Arc and why ETH is better money, I think the first bullet point is like we win as the tech platform like ETH is the decentralized asset at the middle of that. Like if if ETH wins fundamentally the only way you can use Bitcoin in this onchain economy is like you're using CBBT BTC some for bridged version whatever that's like
• 27:00 - 27:30 super trusted. Um I I think it's much easier to make that argument than the economics one because I just don't think anyone's going to care. I don't think you're like just ever going to win that battle to to anyone. It's always just going to be strictly worse. It's just like it's it's a different smaller thing. So like even in the investment pitch, I think it needs to be like we're the wing tech platform and that's like that's that's why we're the best money is because like this is the platform that everything is built on top of. This is the only asset that can be the most decentralized most secure asset in this economy if this is the winning platform and the winning rails. So I think maybe John and you might
• 27:30 - 28:00 agree in bread too that like maybe the price the valuation that has deflated out of ETH over the last two to three years has uh run handinhand with uh the decreasing Ethereum dominance as a smart contract platform. And so maybe the the the notion of ETH as money just disappears when Ethereum dominance as a smart contract platform goes from like 90% just even down to like 60%. Whereas in 90% you are the dominant smart contract platform. There is no second
• 28:00 - 28:30 best. But at 60% there actually is a second best. And maybe it's not really anything about Salana specifically, but the fact that there is a valid contender in a uh saturated market and then a after Salana, well then why can't there be a third and fourth and fifth? And all of a sudden the notion of a smart contract platform gets very commoditized. And so the difference between 60% dominant and 90% dominant is the difference in monetary premium versus being just a a tech play with a DCF model. Andy, what's up? Yeah. Well,
• 28:30 - 29:00 I just think like I think that's that part of it to me is what's most interesting. Um cuz like to be honest, I've never cared about the whole like ETH is money conversation. As someone who's been building on ETH for a very long time, I've always thought ETH was interesting and got into it because of the tech and like you know it has as someone who now makes most the majority of my living being a DJ onchain like I have very heavily moved my transactions off of Ethereum mainet and like even off of L2s for the most part. Like the
• 29:00 - 29:30 majority of my transactions for the last couple years have been on Salana and like if you had told me that 3 years ago I would have said that's insane. like there's just no way that could ever possibly happen. And so, kind of like you were saying, David, like the the moment there is a second best and you see that Ethereum is continually not the fastest horse when it comes to upgrading the tech and like maintaining lead and just like being cutthroat and competitive, then it's like, okay, we can extrapolate this out and there's a lot of money to be made here for no one to come and like really really come for
• 29:30 - 30:00 the king and try to be better. And then it just becomes like very very reasonable to tell yourself the story of how it continues to fall off more and more. What was the first thing that pulled you over? Was it activity? Uh yeah. Yeah. I guess this was like I guess like pretty post FTX crash, like relatively close FTX crash. I just like bought a bunch of I sold almost all of my Ethereum for Salana. Um, and then because of that, like as Pump Fun and memes all moved over there, there just
• 30:00 - 30:30 wasn't really anything happening on ETH. Like NFTTS had died off for the most part at this point. And there just like what I'm going to sit in a and do nothing. So like, yeah, sure, some of my stuff does that, but not not nearly as much as it used to. Gotcha. So you saw the black swan opportunity, figured that was probably a good buy, and then just came up with the activity after that. Yeah. It's just like that was where things continued to happen. That's where the majority of opportunities have been over the last couple years. Yeah. This just kind of goes back to this idea that
• 30:30 - 31:00 there's a pretty large cohort of people who are just chain neutral and they are just stoked about whatever layer 1 asset is giving them the opportunities to have fun casino games and and potentially make money as well. And like if that's Salana, if that's Ethereum, it doesn't really matter. But if the chain is fun, then there's some sort of like premium. I won't call it a monetary premium, but some sort of valuation premium that is associated with that that layer 1 chain. I don't know. I think that's moneyiness. Yeah, I was going to say I think that like that actually is the money part.
• 31:00 - 31:30 Like ETH is not money to me because I could theoretically buy a coffee with it. Like I don't really care about that. But I use it to, you know, for a long time every day I was sending hundreds of transactions on Ethereum where it was literally the money that I was paying to do things with. And like that has just died off. And so then Salana has for the most part replaced it or like USDC has replaced it in a lot of ways. Yeah. I mean like that's always been my argument for for these things, right? Or what what L2s in the current paradigm how they add value to Ethereum, right? Like you you buy ETH on base because you want
• 31:30 - 32:00 to ape 10K into a virtual protocol, right? Like that's that medium of exchange demand that comes from that something. It's the same thing with with Salana, right? You go over to Salana and you're not holding on to a 100 Salana because transactions are expensive because it's pretty cheap, right? Fast and cheap. You buy 20 grand worth of Salana because you ape it into a [ __ ] right? Like that's all buy pressure, right? Or if I don't if I don't even want to do the [ __ ] I can buy, you know, the same amount thinking that Andy's going to go over there and do that stuff because Andy like cuz I
• 32:00 - 32:30 see it as a necessary asset to do the next cool thing, right? So, you know, buy pressure is going to come in as a byproduct of that. So, like they didn't build for moneyiness in that same way. They didn't build to be the medium exchange all this [ __ ] they built for a useful tech platform for a pump fund. And because pump fund built there, now people need it as a medium of exchange. It's the thing next to the hot asset, right? The hot state. Um, and therefore you you get some asset appreciation out of that and the bullish narratives come out of it and everything else. So if the meta is like, all right, we're all trading meme coins right now and somebody takes $100,000, deposits it
• 32:30 - 33:00 into Coinbase because they want to buy a memecoin on Salana, a pump fund [ __ ] They take that $100,000, they buy soul, that turns into a $100,000 of buy pressure on Soul. Then they take that soul over to Pump Fund and they dump $100,000 into a memecoin. They sell soul and they dump $100,000 of of soul for this memecoin chitter. But that buy pressure still showed up on Coinbase and I don't think selling it into a memecoin actually takes away from Salana USD liquidity and Salana USD demand, right?
• 33:00 - 33:30 Uh like I I think I think so. Yeah. Well, cuz like you know I I don't know what the numbers are, but there is like a lot of Salana locked up in dead radium pools of Pump Fund coins that have been totally abandoned. And so it's like the market cap of a completely abandoned coin on Pump Fund is still like mid five figures, five or six grand. And so that's a couple thousand dollars of Salana that's locked up literally forever and is never coming back out. And that probably has been more burn
• 33:30 - 34:00 than like the ETH burn over the years if if we did the math. It actually made it deflationary for a little bit which is impressive given given Solana's inflation is actually higher than Ethereum. Yeah. And like we we all know this pattern, right? Uh Ether was like this reserve currency for the ICO mania in 2017. It was the money that everyone used in DeFi for DeFi, the DeFi farms in 2020 and then it was the NFT money in 2021. And so, yeah, there's just kind of this there's this speculative fervor and there is the denominator asset for that and whatever that is. Uh, and well, it's
• 34:00 - 34:30 interesting that like right now I don't know what the current meta is. Maybe Andy, you can kind of tell me what what the traders are doing these days, what the kiddos are doing. Uh, but like I don't know what the common denominator asset is because memecoins memecoins are still alive, but they're not like where they were. Uh, right now the virtuals ecosystem is up bigly. That's back on on on base. Um, but that's actually with the virtual unit of account. interestingly, but there is no kind of hot ball of money going around right now. So, I don't really know where uh what happens next in that whole um in the trader arc. Yeah, I mean like Pump
• 34:30 - 35:00 Fund is still doing pretty serious numbers as far as revenue and and volume goes. Not as much as, you know, Peak Mania, but I don't have it in front of me, but but it's still a lot. Um I would say that's probably still the main kind of thing. But it does sort of feel like people, you know, in all my group chats and stuff are just like waiting for the next interesting thing. Um, and kind of just like biting their time trading meme coins and if one goes to even like, you
• 35:00 - 35:30 know,5 or $10 million, they're like, "Wow, this was incredible." Whereas previously that's like table stakes. Uh, so that that part of it definitely has seemingly changed. But yeah, the virtual stuff that launched on base was cool. It's funny that they've gone back and forth like snip snap snip snap. Um, but they're trying to like actually address some of the like sniping problems on, you know, these like fair launch tokens and so they moved to a pre-sale model. It's been interesting to see all these different teams try to figure out ways to like launch a token that doesn't just get destroyed by like snipers and
• 35:30 - 36:00 scammers. I do think that the snipers is the number one problem about the sustainability of memecoins and token generation events. Like it seems to be like the arc of memecoins ended when these snipers just started winning too hard because that was how the Libra debacle fell off. And so there's this like race to solve the sniper problem to like unlock the next like progression of meme coins. I'm still surprised that the value prop like for all the faults that uh the typical L2 constructions have right with the sequencer building on the blocks like you do have the benefits of
• 36:00 - 36:30 of a private me right so like you don't have to worry about people sandwich attacking you right that everyone is aware of it at the same time. It's hard to do same block buying that you're seeing with a lot of these launches on me uh on Salana where it's like I think uh I heard block works talk about the numbers and it was something like 80% of all pump fund launches have an initial buy in the exact same block in which the thing is launched and then like 50% of those end in profit sold 5 minutes later. So like the grinder is just ridiculous over there right now. But
• 36:30 - 37:00 like that's possible because like you know that stuff's open like the it's been industrialized, right? Because it's been around for a while. Um the value prop of of doing something on an L2 right now is that you know that can't happen to the same degree because it's not all fully exposed block building. Yeah, I'm surprised by that as well. It's something that I kind of at different points in time thought that we would get with bass and we got it to certain extents. Um, but I I really like as silly as it sounds, I kind of just feel like everyone who has a hot ball of
• 37:00 - 37:30 DJ money moved over to Salana and like Phantom Wallet kind of won that world and Pump Fun won already and it's just so hard to unseat them. like you really have to have some serious step level improvement and seeming I think a lot of these traders don't even know that that would be a step level improvement for them that like not be like they're sandwiching and stuff they probably don't even really know it exists and or they're using goto and they don't care. Um but yeah, I'm I'm a little bit
• 37:30 - 38:00 surprised we haven't seen more activity on L2s for that same reason. Memecoins itself as a category has been so much more sticky than any other mania that's come before it. you know, NFTTS came and went and you know, ICOs came and went and like DeFi summer came and went, but N memecoins came and they are still here and it doesn't really seem like they are going away like anytime soon and I think every ecosystem is trying to find it like Pump Fun, but nothing's really taking away anything from Pump Fun
• 38:00 - 38:30 itself for this virtual thing. So like I I haven't looked at it closely if you guys have for so I mean the the idea of this like new launch thing that they're doing is it's supposed to be like you do a pre-sale basically of the token at like some fixed price right is the basic idea to launch. What is the reason for doing that as opposed to the like the other main idea that I've heard before that I don't think I've seen before with memecoins is like just running a like a duct auction or something um before you launch it and so you get like an actual market like floating that market sets
• 38:30 - 39:00 the price as opposed to like some arbitrary fixed price here. I didn't really understand the mechanic of that as opposed to an I remember talking to David about this at a a party once while we were drinking wine. Um, but I think really the the issue because like I I agree theoretically that like a Dutch auction makes a ton of sense. Um, I think technically better. Yeah. Like I think do um what's the name of the is it from Austin Adams? Yeah. Yeah. Like they're they're doing stuff like kind of in that vein. Um, but the issue is that
• 39:00 - 39:30 it doesn't fill like or scratch the itch of like I want to turn one Salana into 10,000 Salana and like that is so much more the driving force than like I need the absolute fair market entry price at the start of this thing. Yeah. And so I think it's just like if you could find a way and like I'm I'm honestly shocked that we haven't seen meme coins on like World Chain become popular or something like some
• 39:30 - 40:00 way to like truly civil resistance memecoin launch where like you could have an actually fair you know $10 per human memecoin launch or something like I think it could potentially work. Um, but it just like if you don't have that lottery ticket style potential, it's just not as compelling for a lot of people. What I'm hearing is it's a mid-curve a mid-curve approach to meme coins is like everyone's just like, "Bro, just give me the lottery ticket. I want maximum extraction, but also maximum upside." And then like, "Oh, but
• 40:00 - 40:30 it's not fair. You don't realize you're getting taken advantage of, sir." They're like, "What are you talking about? Give me my lottery ticket." Yeah. I like I still want to do that 10 leg parlay NFL Sunday. I know it's not the right move, but I still want to do it. But I think David, quickly on what you were talking about of memecoins being sticky, I was talking about this with a couple friends the other day and my response was like casinos have had the same casino games for a very long time. And like I kind of feel like we've just gotten to a bit of what the like logical conclusion of like onchain casino looks
• 40:30 - 41:00 like. And I think it will continue to evolve and change for sure. But like people are people obviously like to risk money and gamble on the blockchain and I don't see that stopping and until there is a more efficient way than memecoins to do it for this like true PvP like system I don't think it'll be replaced and like the flavor of what it is might change whether it's you know AI or animals or whatever but it's still kind of the same thing. Yeah. still it's still onchain liquidity pvping which is
• 41:00 - 41:30 what I think everyone is getting pulled into like when you and I were talking Andy I was like going down the flaunch rabbit hole and I think talking about like oh yeah there's like what about like a 30 minute window where if you're interested you can come in you can buy the meme coin it's just 30 minutes long and then then the people who get in inside of this 30 minutes 30-minute window they're the early ones and everyone else is like it's only 30 minutes but like I think I still under uh estimated this like the power of this like human centipede of virality where
• 41:30 - 42:00 if you are number one, you are twice as early as number two. And if you are number two, you are twice as early as number four. And so the incentive to just like send some like pump fun [ __ ] link to your friend and being like, "Hey, buy this." And then your friend like repeats that down the line across Telegram, all like that that that's like I think that's how like a rail gun works. that that rail gun method of just like a vir a viral memecoin is just so incredibly powerful that optimizing for like 20% better
• 42:00 - 42:30 execution just does not hold a candle to that whatever phenomenon that is like the problem I still have with all this though is how we're saying like if if this is reaching kind of the logical conclusion of like basically onchain casino is that and I've heard people argue this before of like this is just strictly worse than a casino um Because like the good thing about casinos is like they have actually optimized basically all of the odds to extract just enough such that you don't like screw off like screw all of the
• 42:30 - 43:00 customers over so that they all leave. They keep coming back versus that's the problem with these meme coins like at least as currently constructed if we don't move to any kind of like auction or whatever kind of different format is everyone who's individually launching a single token is just like incentivized to max extract. Um, and so the market equilibrium ends up being you just extract like way more than the users are actually willing to take and then like keep playing over time. Like it just ends up looking like that roller coaster meme of like the like this the circle just keeps getting like a little bit smaller every time and it feels like we're just going forward with that. Um where I like I I don't think meme coins
• 43:00 - 43:30 are obviously going away. They're never going to. I mean, the big ones are going to last forever. And I don't even think the current iteration is going to go away um of this like current pump fund meta, but I I can't see that like as currently constructed that it would keep growing um or even sustain what it's like it feels like it has to just just start like turnurning people out at like the kind of the current economics of it. Yeah. Well, I think like the the one thing though with that, cuz I I agree with you, but it's worse than a casino
• 43:30 - 44:00 odds wise, but it's better than a casino marketing because no one knows the odds. And the average idiot online sees some 19-year-old post a picture of his Ferrari and goes, "I could do that." No one thinks that going to sit down at the blackjack table, but they think that when they put 10 Salana in their Phantom wallet. And so that's the major difference right now. And so like I think that's why it's been so cyclical where there are these really long periods of lols and periods of like total mania because there is a ton of money that is leaving the system every
• 44:00 - 44:30 single time and you just like need time to refresh after that. Yeah. I was just going to say I don't let's not act like it's any different than just like crypto broadly. Like these people doing this stuff don't even know the difference between the value approval methods and and valuations of any of these things like the layer one blockchains, layer 2 blockchains, DeFi protocols, memecoins, whatever, right? That's that's a narrative that most of the stuff is memecoins. So for them, it's it's the same thing. You see the upside from everyone else and then you get hurt and then you go, I'm ready to be hurt again after some period of time and then you go back in. The thing that's surprising
• 44:30 - 45:00 to me is I my guess is that more people than you'd expect understand how bad the odds are just because of really high-profile blowups at this point of like like the the Trump coin chart is terrible. Like this that's just not a good chart. Like most people who have bought that thing are down and you look at like the Malay chart burned a ton of people just like straight nuke. Like those are the examples that most people have seen. I have been surprised at the level of memecoin volume that has continued after that of like Pump Fun is still just ripping like they're just
• 45:00 - 45:30 still making a ton of money every day. People are still using it a lot. I I have been surprised that it didn't make more of a dent having these really high-profile examples where everyone sees that like yeah, you're probably you're probably going to lose money on this. Like it's it's not going to be a great outcome. I I've been surprised at how sticky it has been even with that happening. I think it's just like a tale as old as time with gambling in general. I think it's like still just people who are doing this and you know think they have a chance if they don't actually have an edge are
• 45:30 - 46:00 like pretty irrational whether they're sports betting or at the blackjack table or playing memecoins. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah, I I I do think that post Trump, post Libra, there was a cleansing of the market where people without edge just either did get burned or identify that they don't have edge and they left. And then people who are left playing the memecoin game are sophisticated. They they know the game. They they are aware of the odds. They like are doing it for fun. They're doing it with their funny
• 46:00 - 46:30 money. And so the the market that is left of doing that is is the people who are doing it are not casuals. They are people who are think about this day in day out and they are the ones for responsible for like this you know sustained high volumes here. I describe it as the like the Malay Libra situation was the lights coming on at the club at 3:00 a.m. Like everyone's like what is going on like I am disgusted with myself. Like this is not what I want to be doing. I need to go home and shower.
• 46:30 - 47:00 Right? So like the average person left and then like you know the people that are like doing that every other night are are still there playing the gameers chronic parters are still doing that stuff. They're doing a line in the bathroom like they're having a great time. Yeah. But the thing is um like I I saw some comments on the timeline of just people saying that it was a little it was like trench warfare between different cults of meme coiners over the last few weeks. But it was starting to heal a little bit. So it's like everyone had formed these little cabals of trying to launch these coins and make these games, whatever. There's actually a lot
• 47:00 - 47:30 of dashboards for tracking wallets of like key KS and [ __ ] So like a lot of that was going on pretty heavily for the last month or so. And then now it's starting like okay, momentum starting to pick back up and starting to be a little more PvE. Yeah. I do wonder like once if this does really like actually get frothy again, there's more energy going back into this if the equilibrium finds a more sustainable place where more people aren't just getting rad over and over and over again. and it's actually a little bit more sustainable and it's and it's, you know, the more casual people
• 47:30 - 48:00 can actually play for a longer time without actually getting their their [ __ ] handed to them. Uh, I would hope so. Uh, obviously, but I don't really know if there's any sort of reasons why the rake just wouldn't get more more Riky over time. Well, I mean the one nice thing is like generally in the history of crypto things like fees have somewhat like trended towards zero over time and like you know there was a period of time where it seemed insane that like royalties would ever go away or these
• 48:00 - 48:30 different things and like sure there's still going to be extraction events and stuff. Um but these markets are like you know long enough time horizon they can be pretty efficient and like I I have to think that it will happen eventually. people will only, you know, lose money so much, but they still want to fuel their gambling addiction that they'll try to get better or they'll move to competitors who are trying to take less. But, uh, I doubt it'll be super soon. UniS swap is your gateway to a more efficient DeFi experience. With Uniswap
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• 49:30 - 50:00 prove key details like age or citizenship without revealing sensitive personal information. Self never stores your data. It only generates cryptographic proofs. Here's how it works in three steps. First, register and verify. Use the Self app to scan your biometric passports RFID chip. Selfverifies authenticity with zero knowledge proofs. Each passport creates one unique identity. Second, you can share proofs privately. Third party apps request identity proofs like confirming you're over 18. You can also link proofs
• 50:00 - 50:30 securely to public wallets for airdrops or governance participation. And then last, secure verification. apps validate your proofs instantly onchain like on Cello or offchain. Audited by ZK security, the self app is live on iOS and Play Store. Visit self.xyz and follow self protocol on X. Redirecting a little bit. Andy, if you played in Hyper Hyper liquidity uh ecosystem at all. Uh a little bit, not not a ton recently, but yeah, it's something I would I I was told myself I was going to do it this weekend. didn't actually do it, but I'm
• 50:30 - 51:00 starting to like deploy my strategy because I want exposure to hype because one because of the fees it's generating. It's like this enshrined application setup that seems to be um finding a little bit of PMF, right? Like they're routinely at the top of chain chain fees, but it's a little unfair again because they have an enshrined application which is their their purp. They're they have the EVM side what's opened up which is this general programmable side like sidec car that has some uh I believe their op codes are called builder codes that allow you to like actually inherit or take some
• 51:00 - 51:30 information from the per platform and bring it into the EVM side which it's really slow. It's it's not it's programmable but like it has some appeal there and there's like a little bit of a scene popping up. Um and I just think it'll probably continue to to grow a little bit and I want to make sure I have some exposure but I don't know if that'll be straight hype or if I want to actually like go a little bit deeper. Yeah, I was actually tweeting uh with someone about that that literally today. Um, funny enough. But I think the the challenge with the EVM stuff is like I mean I think there's a couple issues, but like one is just that people who own
• 51:30 - 52:00 Hype value Hype so much as an asset that like they don't want to sell it. They don't want to use it as money. They want to hold it because they value it. The ecosystem. Yeah. Yeah. It's like why am I going to sell my hype for some random shitcoin on you know the launchpad that exists or AI agent or whatever. And so I think that's like a big part of it. Uh and also like you said the experience on the hype per
• 52:00 - 52:30 sex and the experience on like the hype EVM are just not the same. And I think that you use the two and you're like I don't really want to use this EVM that there's like not that much to do. And so I think you kind of just need like one or two catalysts to really get the ball moving and get things to change. And probably at, you know, odds are at some point that will happen and there will be a period of time where there's a lot of money to be made on the hype EVM. Um, but yeah, right now it's it's been weird. I'm a little a little bit surprised at how little there has been
• 52:30 - 53:00 cuz I was like actually pretty bearish about the EVM launch for a lot of these reasons. I just thought people really like hype and don't want to use it for that. Um, but I'll be curious to see how it evolves. Yeah. What is the integration the like synergy between the HypVm and the actual PERBs platform? Like why why is it is it just the same currency or like what what's the deal? I actually Yeah, like like Brett said, you uh they have some codes that you can use like kind of enshrined op codes uh to
• 53:00 - 53:30 access data from the uh exchange. And also I believe eventually the idea is that you could also you know like buy and sell on the exchange through the EVM. Uh I don't think that's live right now. Um but so theoretically if there were applications that needed oracles or wanted to have like you know really deep liquidity for trading different things you could like build that in the EVM uh and be able to access data from the exchange at the same time. Um that's
• 53:30 - 54:00 kind of I think a lot of what the core value prop is. They have some other stuff that they've changed as well. They have like a dual block architecture which is interesting where they have like smaller blocks that are uh cheaper and faster and bigger blocks that are more expensive. Um so like you use the big blocks to deploy smart contracts for the most part and like do really complex batching or whatever and you use the smaller blocks for regular transactions. Um but I think they're a little bit too small still. They're like 2 million gas. It's kind of easy to fill them up. Um interesting. Yeah. But yeah. Okay. Yeah,
• 54:00 - 54:30 the notion of an enshrined application actually does make sense. It has like all of this very rich data and trailing trading volume and liquidity there. So it's like what if what if Binance had a EVM around it where you could build a bunch of other cool stuff on top of Binance, right? Yeah. What if what if the Binance exchange and BNB were like more intimately connected with each other? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. down here John talk a little bit about like the he was teasing a a high capacity or high performance chain little R research
• 54:30 - 55:00 paper but he may never release it so I'm going to try and see if I can tease some of it out it right now did you cover Hyperlid in that I wrote like 90% of it and then I just haven't finished the last 10% of it sitting there for like a good month or two at this point I need to actually finish it uh yeah no I did a bit um you know I like I I think the pitch of it definitely makes sense of like David to your question of like kind of like what like what why the integration I mean a lot of it I think is honestly similar to Salana's thesis just like starting from a different point of it's just
• 55:00 - 55:30 beneficial to have all these things in the same place I mean the the simple literal example is all right if this is just like the best deepest liquid exchange that has all the users on it like where would you want to launch your token in your application you know I'm going to launch my app obviously right there and then like you know my my token will just get listed there right away like this is where all the users are um I like I I have a tough time with it though um seeing them build this out in practice because yeah, I mean I mean part of it is like you could just like literally look at the numbers of this obviously um like at least as of right now we'll see where they take it. The
• 55:30 - 56:00 hyper EVM is like not actually performant at all. Um it's like very on the low end of performance um to just for relative numbers I looked I looked it up. It's like it's like 130th of base to give you like relative performance. So like if that's their throughput relative to their hyper core side which is the purpose thing. It's just like like Andy was saying like you have this mental model of like hyperl liquid fast go awesome cool whatever thing and then you get over like what what the [ __ ] going on like it's I'm I mean quicksand
• 56:00 - 56:30 and I don't like it and like I just think that's the not a great move. Yeah. Yeah. I I think it's a like it's a really tough area to play in to just go build another EVM chain and then one to make it good and then to like have a meaningful differentiation then on top of that to get users to come use you. It's it's just hard to start a general purpose chain right now as an EVM. I mean like even for guys like Mega ETH and Monad who are great been working at this longer u like Monet's been working on like literally this problem for years. I I it seems difficult to me that
• 56:30 - 57:00 like a team is just going to show up and say like, "Oh yeah, we're going to have the this super optimized EVM and just slap it on top of this other thing and it's going to work perfectly." It's obvious like not how it's going to work. Um and then building up a whole general purpose ecosystem, it's just going to be really tough, particularly when you've taken away the obvious two applications that would be the thing, you know, the flagship thing that like most applications would build is it's perfect exchange and spot exchange. Like that's already gone. Um, so go go go build the other like stuff that people already care about a little bit less. And then,
• 57:00 - 57:30 hey, by the way, this actually isn't optimized. It's difficult. So, like, yeah, my my general bias has been the same for the past few months. It's still super bullish on them as building a a great per exchange, a really good um exchange for people to use, but it's going to be super tough um to like really really drive adoption on having a meaningfully differentiated EVM right now. Um, sticking that on there. Yeah, I agree. I think the one thing that they have that a lot of other EVMs don't have, and I've seen this mentioned a few times, is that they just have a massive war chest of hype that they can airdrop
• 57:30 - 58:00 to people. And so, you know, as we saw with Uni Chain over the last couple weeks, like incentives work um and it will get people to move funds. And so, that's kind of to me the one unknown is I know they just had on testnet the other day a new like points page show up on their uh on their UI. And so I could see them starting to roll out a much more aggressive uh incentive mechanism for using the Hyper EVM and that could be a pretty big ball mover. Guys, this
• 58:00 - 58:30 has been uh I've loved this. I think this is great. There's one last conversation that I think we should touch on before we wrap this one up. Uh this one actually spawned on TikTok apparently. I don't know how or why, but there going around the internet there is a conversation around uh 100 men versus one gorilla. And I think it's worth having a conversation here. I think it's nice to see how everyone thinks about this this question. Maybe Brad actually I think you were the one that suggested this. So maybe you can kind of like lay lay the foundation about this debate. Yeah. All right. So first we had a set
• 58:30 - 59:00 of parameters so everyone is aware of the conditions. Right. So we're going to say neutral playing field. This is in an arena. Everyone is told to go in and fight the other thing, the hundred men versus the gorilla. Same thing with the gorilla. Assuming we can communicate with it and says if you don't win, you're dead, right? So like there's a there's some motivation there. M um for me I think it's pretty clear. I do this on on mass, right? So like if you do like the average weight of an American male, I think it was like 190 lb. That's like 19,000 uh 2,000 20,000 lb roughly.
• 59:00 - 59:30 And a a average uh silverback gorilla is like 400 lb. She had like 19,500 lb mass difference there. So I I just think logically you have to go with the humans because the gorilla still has soft bits. It's it's made for burst strength and energy, right? It's not an endurance athlete like the like humans. Um there you go. Little little disproportionate like that's what I think people just like like Jesus. Um people don't understand the size of a a gorilla. It's
• 59:30 - 60:00 not King Kong. It's like 400 lb. So it's like you know a couple of humans. Um and I just think yeah you got to go with the gorilla or you got to go with the humans in that that instance. I think the the context of saying you will die if you do not win I think is important because when I was first simulating this in my head I didn't really have that that prerequisite in the debate because I think like I was thinking about this okay if I am one of these 100 people and I have to go up against these silverback gorilla uh which uh yeah 300 to 430 lbs.
• 60:00 - 60:30 Okay, so you're right about that. Uh that that thing is [ __ ] scary, bro. And there's no way that I'm going first. And I think that most most dudes like me are also not are also not planning on going first. Yeah. Yeah. And so who the hell is going to go first? And if everyone is scared of going first, that silverback gorilla can just pick us off one by one. That was kind of like my hesitancy about picking humans here. Yeah. Yeah, as long as you don't do the gladiator thing where like he walks out and just like fights like nine other
• 60:30 - 61:00 gladiators one by one and just works through it, then like yeah, gorilla is going to win every every time. But like 100 people, no way. It really depends on how coordinated the humans are. Yeah, I guess when are the humans allowed to plan before the fight starts? I'm not sure. You have five five minutes as a group. I think I think time. I think that's the other aspect of it is just like humans are smarter than gorillas. And I think that I think that with enough planning you could figure it out. And the other thing that I was
• 61:00 - 61:30 thinking about is like could 10 humans beat Andre the giant in a fight? How much did he weigh? Is a gorilla 10 times harder than Andre the giant? Like I don't know. So yeah, I mean I I agree with Brett. I I think that it's like definitely the humans. Um, like do you think that you could be a hundred rats in a fight? Like probably not. 100 rats. What's different? I think I rats 5,000 rats. Now we're Now it's getting weird.
• 61:30 - 62:00 Yeah. If So you think if a 100 rats came at you right now, you have You're standing there and a 100 rats for me, you think you would win in a fight? Are they New York rats? Yeah. They just ate some Joe's pizza and they're ready to go. I'm just thinking that like if it's rats, if it's 100 rats, I can run quickly and all I need to do is while I am running step on one rat at a time for
• 62:00 - 62:30 a while and I if I can get them down to 50, then I'm golden. All right, fair enough. But yeah, no, I just think it's definitely humans. John, so I I waited to go last cuz I cheated and I went back and forth with chat GPT asking what would happen here and went through different scenarios. Um so four four attributes that matter most if the humans are going to win or not. One willingness to die if you have a bunch of people who are suicidal like odd skyrocket. Yes. Two two is coordination and strategy. Like if if you if you have a plan going in. So the
• 62:30 - 63:00 five minutes is big. Um and then size and skill of the fighters. So if you take a 100 average men with no plan and a normal will to live, gorilla wins easily because the reason why is panic. Most humans flee or hesitate when seeing their friends being ripped apart. I am fear fear collapses. I am running. Gorilla wins within minutes. But if you take about a hundred NFL linemen um who are coordinated and willing to die, there's a greater than 95% chance that they win and they will neutralize it fast and under 45 seconds with probably
• 63:00 - 63:30 only 10 to 20 casualties. Um and the coordinated plan and this is part of why it I don't even think it works if you have people coordinate before is because you know who's going to die. like the people who who go in the first wave like they're all dead. The first like two waves of people, they're all dead. Um but that is the optimal strategy is you send them in coordinated waves. You take out the the lower body first and then you have like dedicated teams for each of the body parts. Like you have a vision crew take out the eyes. Yeah, exactly. That's what that's Is
• 63:30 - 64:00 that going to be you? You're gonna go for the best. I mean, look, man, if all my if all my homies are on the line, my the interesting question for me now that John Rattled some of that off is, would you guys say that you have above or below the average will to live? I have above the I would say I have above average will to live. I think the average person will say that they have above average will to live. Yeah. Yeah. This is like the if you ask everyone, do you think you're a good or a bad driver? like above average driver. The vast
• 64:00 - 64:30 majority of people will tell you that they're an above average driver. I feel like this is the exact same thing. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's right. Yeah. All right. That was great, guys. This has been fantastic. Uh next week we'll talk about whatever the the weekly meta is. I think also something that I need to figure out. Maybe you guys can help me. Maybe the uh listeners of this podcast can help me. We need a name for this subject. I was thinking about block party. Uh seems really [ __ ] generic. You can tell I just chat asked chatbt exactly what I should have called this. Uh, so if there's anyone out there with a possible name for whatever the show
• 64:30 - 65:00 format is, uh, hit me with it. Uh, and then also just give us the feedback. If you like this episode, uh, what you want us to talk about, uh, if you're in the Bankless Discord, add me there. If you're on Twitter, add us there. Uh, Andy, John, Brad, really appreciate you guys coming on and just talking through the week with me. And, uh, looking forward to doing it next week. Later, dudes. See you one. Bank station, you guys know it's a deal. Crypto is risky. You can lose what you put in. But, nonetheless, we are headed west. This is the frontier. It's not for everyone, but we are glad you are with us on the bankless journey. Thanks a lot.