"Is x86 Actually Screwed?" ft. Wendell of Level1 Techs

Summary

In this engaging discussion, Steve from Gamers Nexus and Wendell from Level1 Techs delve into the complexities of the x86 vs. ARM processor debate. Emphasizing the growing presence of ARM CPUs in various industries such as automotive and cloud computing, they explore the potential decline of x86 architecture. Despite Intel and AMD’s assertions of x86’s continued relevance, Wendell outlines the reasons ARM could become more dominant, citing cost-efficiency and adaptability as major factors. The conversation encompasses ARM’s technical advantages, challenges faced by x86, and predictions for future shifts in the tech landscape.

Highlights

• Intel's Linux experience might not meet DIY enthusiasts' desires for ARM efficiency. 🛠️
• ARM is pervasive in industries, with cloud servers shifting from x86 permanently. ⛅
• ARM’s design advantage lies in efficiency with fewer transistors, unlike x86. 🔋
• Apple's shift to ARM allowed longer battery life and better hardware-software integration. 🍏
• ARM's rising dominance necessitates evolution in x86 to stay competitive. 📈

Key Takeaways

• ARM CPUs are rising stars in sectors like automotive and cloud, potentially sidelining x86. 🚗☁️
• Intel and AMD, despite their positive outlook, feel the pressure from ARM’s cost and efficiency. 💸⚙️
• ARM architecture's modern design offers power efficiency and lower transistor usage. 🌱
• x86’s legacy system support poses challenges but also opportunities for evolution. 🔄
• The future may see x86 needing to shed legacy constraints for innovation. 🔧

Overview

The tech world is abuzz with talk about microprocessor architectures, and Steve from Gamers Nexus brings Wendell of Level1 Techs to discuss whether x86 is genuinely on shaky ground. The conversation opens with a humorous tiff about Intel's seemingly outclassed Linux offering against ARM's innovative push in sectors like automotive and cloud computing. Wendell asserts ARM's growing foothold, predicting x86's struggle without significant innovation.

ARM's strengths are its modern design and efficiency, especially in cost-sensitive industries where x86 is slowly ceding ground. Meanwhile, Apple and other tech giants praise ARM for its energy efficiency, exemplifying the shift with their laptops’ enhanced battery life. The talk touches upon legacy issues of x86, where maintaining compatibility hinders technological leaps forward and increases overhead concerns for developers.

Wendell suggests that for x86 to remain relevant, it must evolve past its historical legacy burdens, especially as ARM technology continues to provide compelling alternatives. The discussion ends with a nod to the potential necessity for x86 to innovate hard or risk losing more ground, suggesting a future where tech developers must adapt rapidly to this transformation to avoid becoming obsolete.

Chapters

• 00:00 - 00:30: Introduction and Intel's Position The chapter begins with a discussion about Intel's current standing in the technology landscape. The speaker expresses a pessimistic view about Intel, suggesting that the company might face significant challenges (or is "probably screwed"). Intel has historically focused on offering a superior Linux experience, but there is a humorous contemplation of desiring a lesser quality experience, perceived as more 'DIY'. The narrative humorously recommends ordering a board from Newton, a notion that becomes more insulting upon reflection. The chapter concludes with a question about the prevalence of x86 in light of ARM's rise.
• 00:30 - 01:00: ARM's Growing Influence The chapter "ARM's Growing Influence" discusses the widespread adoption of ARM CPUs across various sectors, highlighting their penetration into the automotive industry and cloud computing. The text emphasizes a definitive shift from x86 to ARM architecture in the cloud, citing cost-effectiveness and adequate performance as key reasons for this transition. The sentiment is that this change is permanent and not likely to revert back to x86 CPUs.
• 01:00 - 01:30: Sponsor Message - Lean Lee The chapter titled 'Sponsor Message - Lean Lee' discusses the O1D Evo RGB case, a new addition to the renowned O1 lineup. This case supports numerous fan mounts, drive locations, and offers flexibility in component mounting, including two options for the power supply. It features a dual-chamber design to enhance cable management by maximizing cable storage on the backside. Additionally, it includes a unique vertical GPU mount for showcasing the GPU, typically the most expensive component in a system.
• 01:30 - 02:30: ARM Workstations and Development The chapter discusses the ARM workstation, particularly the System 76 Thelio Astra A1N1 with 128 3 GHz cores. It highlights the ARM CPU release cadence from Ampear, noting that although the CPU was first released in 2021, it remains the fastest ARM workstation available. The chapter delves into specifications and capabilities of the CPU used in this powerful system.
• 02:30 - 03:30: Windows on ARM and Compatibility The chapter discusses the Neoverse core architecture from Ampear, highlighting its 3 GHz speed and 512 GB memory capacity, making it an ideal platform for ARM development. It contrasts this with the Snapdragon dev kit, which was considered a failure after its cancellation. The narrator concludes by mentioning a video on setting up Linux on this ARM platform.
• 03:30 - 05:00: History and Challenges of x86 Architecture The chapter discusses the use of Linux on System76 devices and touches upon the implications for x86 architecture, especially in specific markets like automotive. It suggests that x86 might be losing its relevance in some areas, with the emergence of Windows on ARM as an alternative solution. The speaker mentions successfully running Windows on ARM in a virtual machine, describing it as a fun experience with some performance trade-offs.
• 05:00 - 06:00: x86 vs ARM - Performance and Power Efficiency This chapter discusses the ARM version of Windows and its performance on laptops, specifically running as a virtual machine on Linux. It highlights that the VM is not doing emulation; instead, it runs on ARM cores with Linux as the host. The discussion raises questions on why not run Windows natively on ARM if possible, noting a current limitation with Nvidia drivers not being available for Windows on ARM yet, though they are available for ARM.
• 06:00 - 07:30: Intel and AMD's Response to ARM This chapter explores the evolving competition in the microprocessor market, focusing on Intel and AMD's strategies in response to ARM's growing presence. The discussion highlights the dominance of x86 architecture by Intel and AMD since the 1980s and addresses the challenges and adaptability required for running Linux on ARM systems. It touches upon Nvidia's hesitation to fully support Windows on ARM and emphasizes the ongoing debate about the effectiveness of different architectures.
• 07:30 - 09:30: Consumer Experience with ARM The chapter discusses the shift in consumer experience from traditional x86 architecture to ARM architecture. It highlights the complexity of system architecture and how modern CPUs manage compatibility through hardware, allowing older programs to run on new machines. The narrative suggests a transition point where moving away from traditional architectures makes sense, focusing on the ARM architecture's advantages. This transition is compared to a 'Rubicon,' indicating a significant and irreversible change.
• 09:30 - 12:00: Enterprise and ARM's Impact The chapter titled 'Enterprise and ARM's Impact' discusses the evolution and impact of ARM's microarchitecture, particularly in relation to Windows on ARM. It highlights how ARM was designed with power efficiency in mind, focusing on reducing the number of transistors required for computation. Additionally, the chapter touches upon the emulation of older programs by replicating the system state from 10 or 20 years ago, allowing the execution of these outdated applications on modern hardware.
• 12:00 - 13:30: Future of x86 and Conclusion The chapter discusses the shift from x86 architecture to ARM, famously led by companies like Apple. It highlights the benefits of ARM, including extended battery life and better suspend-resume functionalities, compared to traditional x86 systems. The challenges with modern laptops, such as overheating and poor battery performance, are partly attributed to legacy hardware associated with x86, although not entirely its fault, with implications also from Windows OS limitations.

"Is x86 Actually Screwed?" ft. Wendell of Level1 Techs Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 What about Intel? Intel's probably screwed. Okay. They pride themselves on providing a first class Linux experience. What if I want a third class Linux experience? Cuz that's really DIY. Okay. Just just order the board from Newton. That's like the longer you think about that, the more of an insult it becomes. Wendell, is x86 actually screwed? This is an ARM
• 00:30 - 01:00 system. ARM CPUs and ARM CPUs are taking over everywhere. They're in automotive and they're pretty much, you know, something interesting arm arm yourselves with new machines. Uh you could say that there are sockets in the cloud that have gone from x86 to ARM and they are never coming back to x86. You think so? Yeah, they're never it's it's they're just no. What possible reasons have been given to them to not want to come back to x86? Cost and it's good enough. Got it. Before that, this video is brought to you by Lean Lee and
• 01:00 - 01:30 the O1D Evo RGB case. The 11D Evo RGB is an updated entry to the famed O1 lineup, retaining heavy support for fan mounts, drive mount locations, and flexibility on component mounting such as two options for the power supply. The 11D Evo RGB's dualchamber approach aims to maximize cable storage on the backside to streamline cable management. Coupling this with a unique vertical GPU mount to showcase the most expensive part in most systems. Learn more at the link in the
• 01:30 - 02:00 description below. So, uh this I think he said to me this is did you say this is the most powerful ARM workstation? Workstation. Okay. So, this is a system 76 Thelio Astra A1N1 128 3 GHz cores. Um, the CPU, you know, like the ARM CPU release cadence. This is from Ampear. Uh, the CPU first showed up in 2021, but this is still the fastest ARM workstation that you can get. What's the spec on the CPU?
• 02:00 - 02:30 Uh, 3 GHz uh from Ampear and so it's Neoverse in one cores. It has 512 GB of memory. Um, this configuration is something you can order directly from system 76. If you're doing ARM development, there is really not a better platform to do ARM development. There was all the, you know, the Snapdragon stuff. The new CPUs launched the Snapdragon had their dev kit that they seemed like kind of a flop. They canceled it. Yeah, if you ordered it for and then this is great. And uh, I just did a video on setting up Linux on this.
• 02:30 - 03:00 Well, it comes from system 76 with Linux. So, there's not really a lot that you have to do as far like they do a lot for you. But why does this mean or does this mean x86 is screwed? It it means that uh for certain markets, yeah, x86 has has missed the boat and automotive. So like if you're a software developer and you're doing automotive development, but now we also have Windows on ARM and so I got Windows on ARM working on this thing as a virtual machine. That's cool. That's a lot of fun. Does it work basically just like Windows except with some overhead? Yeah, it's
• 03:00 - 03:30 Well, it's the Windows, you know, the ARM version for like laptops. Yeah, it's basically that but a virtual machine on Linux. Yes. Okay, cool. With with hardware pass. It's not doing emulation or anything like that. It is running on the same ARM cores, but you're still running Linux as the host. Yeah. So, I I guess there is a bit of a question of if that's the case, then why wouldn't you just run Windows natively? Yeah, you could. You totally could. There's not Nvidia drivers for Windows yet, but there is Nvidia drivers for ARM. So if
• 03:30 - 04:00 you run Linux on ARM well we don't talk about those the Nvidia is not yet talking about the Windows on ARM drivers but Linux ARM okay you can that's fine yeah yeah yeah but they are okay we well there is a driver we won't talk about that's the Windows one x86 is the microprocessor architecture and it dates from the 1980s and really there are some that will argue that x86
• 04:00 - 04:30 isn't even x86 anymore. Under the hood, the CPU is doing all kinds of translations. You get into this whole system architecture thing. It's like, oh, it's very long instruction words and this is complicated. And basically, it has to do with long the long tail of compatibility. So, programs that were written for computers 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, mostly still run fine on modern machines. And it relies on hardware to do that, not software. But some would argue that we've crossed this kind of Rubicon where it actually makes more sense to do away
• 04:30 - 05:00 with the old Croft in hardware and deal with the old Croft in software instead. So when you encounter a 10 or 20 year old program, the system emulates the state of things 10 or 20 years ago and runs that way. This is Windows on ARM. So this is natively like Windows compiled to run on the ARM micro architecture. And the ARM micro architecture was designed much later and has been um designed with power efficiency in mind. It's been designed with lowering the number of transistors that you have to use for compute. Apple
• 05:00 - 05:30 famously switched from x86 to ARM. And Apple would tell you that that opened up the possibility of like laptops that last 13 hours on battery and like suspend resume works. A lot of the problem that we have in modern laptops where you put it to sleep and then sometimes it gets hot and in your bag and like destroys the battery and that has to do with legacy hardware and and not great debugging and like it's you could kind of blame that on x86 although it's not technically x86 fault. It's also window I I'll keep this short. I
• 05:30 - 06:00 was on a plane recently for that terrace story and you know we got the announcement like now shut down your large electronic devices. I went to shutdown and it said not only was it updating Windows, but it began flashing the firmware and it said 18 minutes remaining and I had to smuggle my laptop in a corner. I'm like, if I close it, I put it in the back, it's going to die. It's going to be a bad time. The reality of it for Apple is that it wasn't the
• 06:00 - 06:30 abandoning x86. it was that hardware and software came closer together to understand sort of each other's needs in order to deliver an experience and that has not happened outside of ARM. Microsoft thought that was going to happen with Qualcomm and maybe they delivered on some of that to some extent. Now is the other reason x86 is screwed because uh this CPU is capable of running at 3,148 degrees. That is a bug. Oh, okay. Got it. Um, so
• 06:30 - 07:00 x86, so Intel and AMD, they both told me that x86 is alive and well. They both went on stage and they said this is the year for x86. It is really amazing that Intel and AMD sort of recognized the threat that ARM poses to the extent that they formed a consortium. And so like I say that there are certain applications that were x86. Apple is never going to go x86 again. So all of that socket revenue for the x86 market, whether Intel or AMD, it's not
• 07:00 - 07:30 coming back. And that's also true in in cloud, like a lot of cloud providers. Now, this is 128 3 GHz cores. Is a Thread Ripper machine faster? Yes. Can you get, you know, 128 cores in an Epic server? Yes. Can you get 192 cores in an epic server? Yes. Are those cores faster for raw compute? Also, yes. But there are certain aspects of the system that make it really attractive to developers. So if you're doing automotive like embedded systems, automotive, specialty programming, HVAC controls, that sort of
• 07:30 - 08:00 thing, this is really a fantastic platform. ARM is a fantastic platform for that. And this is a fantastic platform for developing for those not 128 core systems. So you don't have 128 core system in a car. It might only be two or four or eight cores, but this can simulate it. And so it's a great development, cost viable for those companies. Yeah. So this is a a relatively inex costs less than a thread ripper and you get 128 cores, 3 gigahertz. It's also it doesn't have uh boost in the same way that you think of boost now like a lot of modern
• 08:00 - 08:30 benchmarks depend on the CPU boosting. This is just 3 GZ all the time. It's really designed for a cloud workload where it's 100% loaded or a car automotive workload where it's basically running at 100% all the time. Um why you know when Intel and AMD were going up on stage I I want to say Nvidia might have said something as well but they are also Yeah. So, so that's a different thing. But why would Intel and AMD Why did they lie to me? Intel. Intel. Wendle. Your name is Wendle, not Intel.
• 08:30 - 09:00 Why did they I've exposed him. He's He's He's part of Intel now. So, they said they basically said x86 is alive and well. And they were talking about this during the time that the ARM laptops were making a lot of waves. Oh, yeah. Qualcomm I think it was. And uh so they both very clearly reacted to this where it was let's get out there and tell the world that no no no no like x86 is good including at press events they did the
• 09:00 - 09:30 same thing and so why why would they be so invested in x86 and when is that answer licensing they they need to uh people need to have a good experience experience with x86. If people have a better experience with ARM, people will not care as much. So, if you're a laptop buyer, are you looking for performance? Are you looking for just to be able to run your applications? Do you really even care
• 09:30 - 10:00 what it's doing? And so, for for ARM, for some when those laptops launched, it's like, okay, this laptop will give you a much better battery life. And yeah, it's not as fast and yeah, you can't play games, but you can run your office applications, you can run teams without the battery running down in an hour and a half, even though you've got a blurred background. You know, there's all this stuff and it's like, okay, this is an objectively better experience. Kind of like how Apple with their stuff, it's like objectively the M1 is a better experience than pre previous x86 laptops. Can you find also from Apple?
• 10:00 - 10:30 Yeah. You find uh you know edge cases where that x86 laptop was faster than an M1 laptop? Sure. But now that you know we're on M4 laptops, it's like that's not really true. There's not there's not really um a workload where you can do an apples to apples comparison. But there are where you could do a true we could do a true apples to apples. It's like don't don't engage with the pun. Don't engage with the pun. Steve's learned well. Don't engage with the pun.
• 10:30 - 11:00 But if you show interest in the puns, then they will continue. But you do see innovation in x86 like uh uh uh AMD has like the tricks halo 128 gig laptops and that came kind of out of left field. 16 cores 128 gigs and like an eight or nine hour battery life. That's that is incredible mobile performance and ARM arguably there are ARM CPUs available in that context. Certainly we know Nvidia is has some secret projects. It's like oh the ARM laptop with an Nvidia GPU
• 11:00 - 11:30 media tech. Yeah. That just seems obvious, right? Like you would go that route. And if Windows is all in on an ARM experience that is not emulated, it is not running x86. The program has been recompiled. Then you're good to go. Linus Toval is Linux. He's really excited about ARM. He's compile because um from Linux's perspective on the Linux side, x86 has accumulated a lot of technical debt, a lot of crust, and so he's very frustrated supporting the crust in software. And that is a lot to
• 11:30 - 12:00 ask developers. So, who who does it who does it hurt or screw over? If Microsoft and all these people are starting to move towards ARM, who does that affect the most? Well, I think AMD could pivot to ARM type solutions pretty easily with chiplets and everything else. Um, users would have a harder time running older software potentially, like the emulation, the software emulation layers maybe are not quite as good. Older popular applications probably would work fine, but less popular older
• 12:00 - 12:30 applications may have problems. What about Intel? Intel's probably screwed. Okay, it's in the a long list of lineage of yearly is Intel screwed updates. We've gotten our yearly update. So, so if Intel is probably screwed with this and x86 is is possibly partially screwed, x86 has to evolve with the times and can it uh the strict halo is
• 12:30 - 13:00 encouraging. It is encouraging to see that level of innovation on x86 because if you look at that, we haven't I I personally don't think that we've had that level of innovation from x86 in a long time. If you look at the growth of embedded systems for x86 like you just look at the number of systems for automotive and everything else and like ARM is winning there and part of it is cost part of its complexity like this is an easier platform to get into as a developer. Let's look at the hardware on this a little bit. So like the first thing I'm seeing is I don't work with
• 13:00 - 13:30 systems like this at all. You know we're we work with kind of quoteunquote standard desktops. First thing I notice is the 24 pin is actually a four pin. Yeah. Sort of. This is a this is actually there's an epic motherboard. This is an ASRock motherboard. This is designed for the Ampear processor. There's an ASRock motherboard for Epic that does the same thing that most server motherboards now only care about 12 volts. And it's kind of legacy to have the 24 pin connector. Could they go 12vo? Is there a reason not to just go like 10 pin 12vo spec? They could they
• 13:30 - 14:00 could uh there probably are boards that do that, but this is aimed at kind of like quasi ATX compatibility, and they've chosen to solve that problem by giving you a little breakout header. Yeah. Um, what else is unique with this system other than the fact that it has a separate discrete power button attached to a PCB? It's a microATX system. It's a microATX board. You can order the board separately. Like you can get a the board and CPU combo from like Newegg or wherever, but System 76 puts this together in Colorado. It's sort of a unique case and it's their case design.
• 14:00 - 14:30 And the little Raspberry Pi computer on the side here is just quality of life. It's something that system 76 provides in the thelio systems um so that they can you know control the fans a little better and have a little bit better quality of life experience for everything else. This is an Arctic power CPU cooler. I was about to say it jumps out to me that they're using DIY components in here and not like OEM style. So Arctic I saw be quiet fan and XPG power supply and ASUS GPU. Yep. What
• 14:30 - 15:00 um why are there rocket ships everywhere? That's their That's their corporate thing. They they made the me like they stamped the thing. There's even like a hidden message in the alignment of the planets and the fan group. Oh, when you say made in what' you say? Colorado. Colorado. Yeah. You mean actually made in Colorado? Okay. So, they stamped the case there. Yep. That's the next one we're going to. Yay. It is. They they pride themselves on providing a firstass Linux experience with this kind of a platform even to the
• 15:00 - 15:30 extent they do their own Linux distro. What if I want a third class Linux experience? Cuz that's really DIY. Okay, just just order the board from Newegg and that's like the longer you think about that, the more of an insult it becomes. You you're going to be on the level one forums probably asking for help. Do you do you feel like x86? You said there's some places it's evolving with the times. Do you feel like it can right now? I guess it's not even like uh it doesn't
• 15:30 - 16:00 have to catch up because it's in the lead. So, well, it's in the lead for performance, but arguably it's not in the lead for battery life. That's true. Yeah. And longevity of like What about an enterprise world? Where's in the enterprise world? It's really interesting. Um I think the most interesting place that um that ARM exists in the enterprise is these kinds of server workloads. Um Amazon famously has their Graviton ARM systems. Those aren't available at retail, but ARM has ARM in that context for Amazon has displaced an ungodly number of x86
• 16:00 - 16:30 sockets. Like AMD and Intel, I guarantee you there have been board meetings where they are super worried about how successful Amazon has been with Graviton. And it's like, oo, do they need to I mean, does does AMD need to start making stuff targeted at ARM? I think that um they kind of are. So like if we look at um Zen 4C and Zen 5C the the the compact cores um that is kind of an answer to the efficiency and scalability
• 16:30 - 17:00 of ARM. So like some of the innovation that AMD is doing is a direct answer to the kinds of things that company the kinds of advantages companies are getting from leveraging an ARM platform. And so in a in a way ARM being as successful as it is is sort of changing the trajectory of x86. Okay that's interesting too. What about so in the consumer audience though the enterprise world's always been kind of in a different spot where I don't know the numbers these days but I remember a time reading the market share distribution of
• 17:00 - 17:30 operating systems in different types of computing and at that time desktop was like definitely over 90% Windows and uh there was some Linux use it was like couple percent apple was still only a couple% we're talking a long time ago and then um server I remember being the other way it was like over 90% Linux. Y uh so these are very different markets but consumer it behaves totally differently and what if we just break it down as like the gaming world where I
• 17:30 - 18:00 personally I'm really waiting for Steam OS to come out on desktop properly. You can do that stuff already in Linux but the idea with Steam OS is they've they've really gotten momentum with it. There's good compatibility. They have frame time advantages for pacing sometimes which is cool. Uh, and it's something that I feel like the average consumer could put a USB stick in, install it, and probably be okay. Yeah, there there are a couple of Linux distros that are like that now. Basite, for example, it leverages all the cool stuff from Steam, and it is basically
• 18:00 - 18:30 just point-click install. You get Mango HUD and Gamecope for controlling the the system platform, right? that uh Stricks Halo laptop that I have. Uh when you have Gamecope and Mango HUD installed on it, um you can set the power targets and be like, "Hey, only run the CPU at 15 watts." And in most games, you can still get like 1440p upwards of 60 fps at like medium and and a long battery life because of that, right? So with these ARM platforms, do you think is the consumer experience developing enough where you know for I guess if I from my
• 18:30 - 19:00 perspective what I need on a system is I I would really prefer it has some ability to play games um at a software compatibility level and then I really need it to be able to run Adobe and you know Premiere, Photoshop, some type of uh word processing potentially things like that. So where are we with that experience in ARM? So with Windows on ARM and the Adobe suite, Adobe has released good support for the ARMbased
• 19:00 - 19:30 Windows and as a result of that, this platform will work great with the the Adobe suite and acceleration. We're still waiting on Nvidia native drivers. right now, Qualcomm's uh built-in video, Qualcomm hasn't they're letting the OEMs do the video drivers, but I'm sure that my perspective on this, and I'm sure that you'll echo this, is that when Nvidia allowed OEMs to control that, remember the bad old days? It's like, oh, I'm going to use the EVGA or the MSI driver on like the the colorful whatever because their driver does a thing.
• 19:30 - 20:00 Qualcomm hasn't learned that lesson yet. This is true PCIe. This is Ampier and so this is going to be the far superior experience because out the gate um it is like this but this is not a consumer system. This platform will enable developers to bring a first class consumer experience. One one question uh you said something about this being PCIe. Yeah. What is it with you and PCIe? That's the that's the that's the common hardware language that we all
• 20:00 - 20:30 must speak and we all must speak it well. Yeah. There's another video you should check out. I think we called it the future is PCIe or something with them and we just shot another one before this about PCIe, more devices and more stuff. So this has an Intel AX210 uh nick in it and that is a great wireless nick and that is well supported in Linux even on ARM because Linux ARM like it's not it's believe it or not Linux open source I want to go from x86
• 20:30 - 21:00 to ARM Linux is not that makes that pretty easy. Okay, this uh Nick does not have a proper Windows driver and so I've passed through this device as a PCIe device to my Windows VM. M my Windows VM thinks that this is plugged into bare metal hardware. As a developer, I'm going to have a way easier time developing drivers for this piece of hardware through this kind of like para virtualization. Okay. Than I will working on bare metal windows and that is that is that will enable a better
• 21:00 - 21:30 consumer experience. Got it. Because that's kind of what ultimately all the companies can do company things but there does need to be mass adoption too. Yes. And it can't just be enterprise. I mean enterprise is important but enterprise where the money is. So I guess that's where you generate the money to start going after consumer. Well you know remember Microsoft launched the um the Surface X and Microsoft was we want to build a premium experience but what the OEMs saw was we're going to build the cheapest Windows tablet we possibly can. And so you got the cheapest Windows tablet you
• 21:30 - 22:00 possibly could and no one liked that. Yeah. Whereas Apple's goals were we want a premium experience and how we get there is we control the platform so that we control a tight coupling of hardware and software and that was really what it was about right. Yes. Apple is all about control. Yeah. Okay. Cool. So one last time to bring it back to the intro. Right now in 2025 is x86 actually screwed. They're on
• 22:00 - 22:30 a trajectory. they're going to have to respond to this kind of innovation because this is there are innovative I mean this is a DDR4 platform you know blah blah blah but there are really innovative things there are lots of desire reasons that a development platform like this is desirable and so because of that there's a gap in the market with x86 it's going to drive prices lower it's going to it's going to drive features up but it's also I think the real thing is that it has to drive x86 to be willing to abandon some of its
• 22:30 - 23:00 legacy. Yeah. So that it can do better innovation with less overhead as you as emulation gets better or as the things it's emulating get sufficiently old that they can be brute forced on modern hardware that'll be easier. So y so so the answer then is x86 is currently on a screwshaped trajectory and those sockets are not coming back that whatever's gone to graviton like in that aspect of it. Yeah, it's done. Yeah. Yeah. And you can learn more about this kind of stuff on
• 23:00 - 23:30 level one text. Thank you, Wendell, for joining me. Oh, thank you. It's a lot of fun.