Jessica Chambers Murder Retrial Day 4 Part 1 Mrs Tailor Kathryn Rogers Testify

Summary

On the fourth day of the retrial in the high-profile Jessica Chambers murder case, the courtroom witnessed testimonies from critical witnesses. Mrs. Taylor testified about the events surrounding the crime scene on December 6, 2014, while forensic expert Kathryn Rogers presented her DNA analysis findings. The testimonies aimed to piece together the complex mystery of Jessica Chambers’ tragic death.

Highlights

• Mrs. Taylor detailed her curiosity about the scene on the night of December 6, 2014, driving action and investigation. 🚗
• Kathryn Rogers explained the intricate process of DNA extraction and analysis, highlighting the role of nuclear DNA. 🔬
• Discussions revolved around the exclusion and inclusion of DNA profiles in the autosomal and Y-STR tests. 🔍
• Quentin Tellus' potential involvement through Y-chromosome DNA was a pivotal discussion point. 📍
• The interplay between male and female DNA in forensic analysis showcased the complexity of DNA evidence interpretation. ⚖️

Key Takeaways

• Day 4 of the retrial brought valuable testimonies from witnesses. 🎤
• Mrs. Taylor recounted her observations and actions on the night of the crime. 🚓
• Forensic expert Kathryn Rogers explained the DNA testing process and its implications. 🧬
• Discussions about DNA evidence included complexities and statistical significance. 📊
• The presence of male DNA on evidence was examined extensively. 🕵️‍♂️

Overview

The Jessica Chambers murder retrial reached its fourth day, continuing to unravel the details surrounding the tragic case from 2014. Mrs. Taylor testified, recounting her observations and actions on the night of the crime, contributing valuable firsthand insights into what transpired at the scene. Her testimony provided context and helped paint a picture of that fateful December evening.

A significant portion of the day's proceedings was dedicated to the testimony of Kathryn Rogers, a forensic expert specializing in DNA analysis. She meticulously explained the process of extracting and analyzing DNA from various pieces of evidence, emphasizing the difficulties and statistical significance of such forensic work. Her insights helped demystify the scientific process for those in the courtroom.

The discussion centered around the results of autosomal and Y-STR DNA tests, aiming to establish potential connections to the suspects, particularly Quentin Tellus. While the autosomal DNA results excluded Tellus, the Y-STR tests did not. This disparity sparked deep discussions on DNA evidence complexities, underlining the intricate nature of forensic science in criminal cases.

Chapters

• 00:00 - 03:00: Oath and Introduction of Kathryn Rogers In this chapter, Kathryn Rogers is introduced as a key figure in the narrative. The chapter begins with a solemn oath, indicative of a legal or formal proceeding, where a figure referred to as 'the right man' affirms to tell the truth. Kathryn Rogers' introduction is likely tied to this setting, suggesting her involvement in a significant or truthful account. The context implies that the setting could be a courtroom or a similarly serious environment where testimonies are given.
• 03:00 - 05:00: Description of Scales Biological Laboratory The chapter provides an account involving an individual named Taylor who resides in Portland, near the old Highway 51, close to Eminem's grocery or girly store. The dialogue mentions that Taylor lived in the same area as of December 6, 2014. The conversation also hints at the topic of marital status, specifically asking about the presence of a husband.
• 05:00 - 08:00: Kathryn Rogers' Qualifications and Experience The chapter discusses Kathryn Rogers, highlighting her marital status and her husband's occupation. Kathryn is married to Taylor, who is an over-the-road truck driver. He is currently on a work trip to South Carolina. Additionally, Kathryn's age is mentioned as 50, linking her to the sheriff department.
• 08:00 - 10:00: Introduction to DNA and Forensic DNA Analysis The chapter titled 'Introduction to DNA and Forensic DNA Analysis' discusses a crime scene investigation that took place on December 6, 2014. A suspicious individual was reported to have been present at the scene. The investigation involves the use of forensic DNA analysis to solve the case.
• 10:00 - 15:00: Process of DNA Analysis Explained The chapter titled 'Process of DNA Analysis Explained' includes a discussion involving several participants, where one individual inquires if another instructed Willie to investigate a situation. It is confirmed that Willie was indeed given the instruction and that he typically had access to two vehicles at the time, one of which was a white GMC Yukon. Willie also checked on a helicopter, but it was confirmed that there was no helicopter present.
• 15:00 - 17:00: Discussion on DNA Profiles and Mixtures This chapter discusses the scenario of an individual going round back with the speaker's daughter, followed by a reference to the Sheriff's Department running a check on a vehicle tag. It suggests an investigation or checking process, possibly involving some form of DNA profiling or mixture analysis to identify individuals or evidence linked to a case.
• 17:00 - 19:00: DNA Testing on Submitted Evidence The chapter titled 'DNA Testing on Submitted Evidence' begins with an inquiry into the actions of an individual named Willie Taylor on a certain night. A key figure, possibly a witness or involved party, is questioned about Taylor's intentions and actions. The dialogue reveals that Taylor attended a scene out of curiosity, driven by the person's interest in the events occurring. The chapter includes an interrogation or a courtroom setting where the witness confirms their own curiosity as the reason for Taylor's presence. The discourse involves the examination of motives and instructions presumably given to a witness, hinting at legal procedures related to DNA testing on evidence.
• 19:00 - 23:30: Results of DNA Analysis on Key Evidence The chapter presents the results of DNA analysis conducted on crucial pieces of evidence. It outlines the process, the findings, and the implications of these results on the ongoing investigation. The chapter likely discusses how the DNA evidence fits into the larger narrative of the case and what it means for the involved parties. Additionally, courtroom dynamics and the reactions of those present during the presentation of these results may be depicted.
• 23:30 - 30:00: Explanation of Autosomal and Y-STR Testing The chapter titled 'Explanation of Autosomal and Y-STR Testing' seems to focus on an educational presentation, likely involving a speaker named Katherine Rogers. The transcript starts with a light and informal tone, as indicated by laughter, and the introduction of Katherine Rogers. The chapter likely aims to explain the concepts and distinctions between Autosomal DNA testing and Y-STR (Y-chromosomal short tandem repeat) testing, which are both methods used in genetic testing for various purposes, including ancestry and forensic analysis. Details from the transcript are limited, but the presence of laughter and greetings suggests an engaging or interactive session.
• 30:00 - 43:00: Cross Examination: Discussion on DNA Testing The chapter titled 'Cross Examination: Discussion on DNA Testing' involves a discussion with a representative from Scales Biological Laboratory, located in Brandon, Mississippi. The lab specializes in DNA testing, primarily focusing on forensic or criminal casework. They receive evidence from various legal entities such as law enforcement agencies, sheriff's departments, police departments, district attorney's offices, and defense attorneys.
• 43:00 - 47:00: Redirect Examination The chapter titled 'Redirect Examination' provides details about a DNA testing lab in Mississippi that also handles out-of-state work. The lab conducts private paternity and family relatedness testing alongside its primary DNA testing services. The speaker in this portion of the transcript, presumably Miss Rogers, is providing her educational and professional background to the jury. She holds a Bachelor of Science majoring in Biology from Memorial University of Newfoundland, Canada, her place of origin, and has further pursued a Masters degree.
• 47:00 - 48:00: Recess and Juror Instructions The chapter titled 'Recess and Juror Instructions' includes a transcript segment where an individual describes their educational and professional background in forensic science. They completed their graduate studies in science at King's College in London, England, and secured employment at a private DNA testing laboratory in North Carolina after graduating. The laboratory, described as both accredited and compliant with FBI Quality Assurance standards, employs this individual as a qualified analyst who meets those specific standards.

Jessica Chambers Murder Retrial Day 4 Part 1 Mrs Tailor Kathryn Rogers Testify Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 right man he solemnly swear or affirm the testimony you're about to be under bobbing his face is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth would you tell me your name and mr.
• 00:30 - 01:00 Taylor where do you reside in Portland yes sir and the jury's actually been to Courtland do you reside on what we call old Highway 51 yes sir and would that be up by Eminem's grocery or girly store yes sir now did you reside in that same area on December the 6th of 2014 yes sir and the do you have a husband did you
• 01:00 - 01:30 have a husband and do you have the same husband now as December the 6 2014 yes sir what is his name when Taylor and what does he do for a living chuck job is he over the road driver yes sir and he's currently gone correct yes sir and what stay to the end this week he was headed to South Carolina this week and how old is your husband he fire I apologize about for asking how old are you 50 for the sheriff department's
• 01:30 - 02:00 already testified that a suspicious individual showed up down on the crime scene that night and you know what crime scene I'm referring to is that correct yes sir well December 6 2014 were you advised that there was a helicopter in court yes sir and where was that helicopter gonna be down by the old post office we called it ok is that down the hill in downtown Cortland yes sir and do you actually have a child that lives in that area yes sir
• 02:00 - 02:30 did you tell Willie to go down there and see what's going on Thanks did he do that yes sir how many vehicles did you have at the time maybe two and was one of those a white GMC Yukon yes sir and did Willie Tyler go check on the helicopter yes sir was there a helicopter there no sir do
• 02:30 - 03:00 you know what he did next he went on round back with my daughter stay did you have any ideas at the Sheriff's Department off when he got bad yeah and did you have any idea they ran the tack no sir well who would that tag have come back to me and after he went down there and checked
• 03:00 - 03:30 out what was going on did he come back home yes sir did he tell you what he saw I'm just gonna ask you directly Willie Taylor went down to that scene who did he go down there for me who was being nosy that night me thank you ma'am got our territories across all right what instructions would you give miss
• 03:30 - 04:00 Tyler miss title your final release thank you you may remain in the courtroom or you're free to go your choice they call your next witness Rogers
• 04:00 - 04:30 laughter good morning good morning what is your name Katherine Rogers miss Rogers where are
• 04:30 - 05:00 you employed scales Biological Laboratory in Brandon Mississippi and what is scales biological laboratory we are a DNA testing laboratory the majority of our work is forensic or criminal casework we receive items of evidence from law enforcement agencies sheriff's departments police departments district attorney's offices defense attorneys offices most of which are from
• 05:00 - 05:30 within the state of Mississippi but we do get some out of state work as well and we do also some private paternity and family relatedness testing as well you're primarily a DNA testing lab is that correct that's correct and miss Rogers would you give the jury Police the benefit of your background education and training sure I have a Bachelor of Science majoring in biology from Memorial University of Newfoundland that's in Newfoundland Canada where I'm from I then went on to do a Masters of
• 05:30 - 06:00 Science in forensic science at King's College in London England shortly after completing graduate school I became employed by a private laboratory in North Carolina a DNA testing laboratory that lab and scales biological laboratory are both accredited laboratories and follow the FBI Quality Assurance document and in order to become a qualified analyst according to those standards you have to meet certain
• 06:00 - 06:30 requirements the educational requirements I did meet through my undergraduate and graduate studies but I also had to do six months of supervised training prior to being able to do independent casework had to successfully complete competency tests in all the procedures and technologies that we use and we have to do to successful proficiency tests every year we have to do at least eight hours of continuing education every year and we have to stay current with pertinent
• 06:30 - 07:00 scientific literature journal articles and things like that that are pertinent to our field so I first became a fully qualified analyst in 2006 and have maintained my status as a qualified analyst ever since that time and have you ever been accepted as an expert as a forensic count an analyst in DNA in courts of this statement yes I've been accepted as an expert it's somewhere
• 07:00 - 07:30 between 120 and 125 times now most of which have been within the state of Mississippi but also in Louisiana and Tennessee Florida North Carolina Montana and some federal trials as well matter of fact you've been accepted as an expert right here in this courtroom maybe not yes I have your honor I would offer MS Rogers as an expert in the as a forensic analyst specializing in DNA does the defense wish to all right so the court
• 07:30 - 08:00 would accept miss Rogers is an expert in the field so offered you may continue miss Rogers I know a little bit about it but the jurors don't would you kind of explain to them what exactly is DNA sure so dNA stands for deoxyribonucleic acid but what it really is is a long molecule that's packaged into chromosomes that contains all of our
• 08:00 - 08:30 genetic information excuse me in forensic DNA testing the type of DNA that we target is known as nuclear DNA because it resides within the nucleus of the cell there's trillions of cells that contain a nucleus within our bodies every cell except red blood cells has a nucleus so it's these cells that we are looking for when we're examining evidence for forensic casework so those cells could be shed just by simply touching or
• 08:30 - 09:00 having contact with an item or they also can be carried in biological fluids such as blood semen saliva sweat all of those fluids have the potential for carrying cells within them so it's those things that were typically tasked with looking for when examining items of evidence and the DNA that we target goes through a stepwise process each time to try and purify that DNA and get enough of it to
• 09:00 - 09:30 observe and then finally we hope to develop DNA profiles from the evidence that we examine with somebody like me have a lot more than a trillion well you know there the more you know everyone's body can carries trillions of cells and I guess potentially the more mass the more cells that's what you mentioned a moment ago skin cells I believe you said
• 09:30 - 10:00 that if you touch something you might leave a skin cell something of that nature what I'm trying to get at is is it possible through a skin cell I could have left some DNA right on this podium uh yes so whenever a contact is made it there's the potential to leave behind some cells and therefore if there are enough cells and those cells are good enough you know quality there's the
• 10:00 - 10:30 potential 2d to process a DNA profile from those cells left behind and it only takes one cell to be able to at least get a partial or a full DNA profile is that correct technically yes we should in theory be able to get a DNA profile even from one cell because one of the steps of that process that I described briefly is called amplification and so even one cell can be copied through that
• 10:30 - 11:00 amplification process and we make copy after copy after copy of whatever DNA was there initially and hopefully at the end of that amplification process that would allow us to have enough DNA to visualize as a profile would you explain to the jury please what technology you use actually go back to 2014 what technology you were
• 11:00 - 11:30 using or early 2015 what technology you were using at that time to be able to attempt to get some kind of a DNA profile off of a sample that is submitted to you so yes so samples that are submitted again after we do a screening process we are doing what's known as STR analysis and that stands for short tandem repeats and what we're doing is when we amplify that DNA that hopefully we have picked up through
• 11:30 - 12:00 processing an item we're targeting specific areas of the DNA molecule those specific areas are then put together to generate a person's DNA profile when we do what's known as autosomal DNA testing we're targeting 16 of those areas that are spread throughout the chromosomes and if we are successful for example a person's known or reference DNA sample will typically give us a full DNA
• 12:00 - 12:30 profile and each individual's known DNA profile has a frequency of less than one in 999 trillion so if we're successful in getting a single source full profile from an item of evidence we can say that that profile is unique to an individual so it's those 16 specific areas that are targeted when we attempt to get a DNA profile sometimes however we may only get a partial DNA profile if there's only very little amount of DNA there
• 12:30 - 13:00 initially or if the DNA is somewhat degraded or damaged we may only get a partial profile we can also get what's known as a mixture which is multiple people's DNA combined together into a mixture which we have to interpret a little differently or of course sometimes we get no DNA profile at all let's go this particular case yes this was an
• 13:00 - 13:30 item of evidence that was received by the laboratory for testing in this case the description is keys key chains and rope and tags we have our scales biological laboratory case number sticker still is present on this item and then we assign an individual
• 13:30 - 14:00 specimen number to each item that we process for DNA that number is still here as well as the evidence tape that I initialed and dated after processing this item is still present that you were asked to process yes it is
• 14:00 - 14:30 miss Rogers what once she received that particular piece of evidence what is the first step that you would take in an attempt to obtain a DNA profile off of the keys so on this particular item the goal was to try and obtain any DNA that
• 14:30 - 15:00 may be present on that item as a whole in order to do that I swabbed that entire item the lanyard that the keys were on each little keychain that was there the key itself was all swab using a sterile cotton swab and that's done to hopefully pick up any cellular material that may be there cells of course containing the DNA so that item was swab in its entirety and then put through that stepwise DNA process
• 15:00 - 15:30 which involves purifying the DNA which is essentially you know extracting DNA from the cells getting the DNA out of the nucleus of the cell and then purifying that hopefully getting rid of all the other cell components or things on that particular sample that we're not looking at looking for and then we amplify it as I mentioned which is the stepwise process of making copy after copy after copy so any DNA that's there
• 15:30 - 16:00 initially will be copied through that amplification process and then at the end we analyze the item and look for any DNA that might be on there in the form of a DNA profile you mentioned earlier that if you are able to get a a solo cell I'm probably butchering the way I'm trying to say this but you mentioned a minute ago there are 16 loci
• 16:00 - 16:30 don't think how you call them that you look for lo se les I did you look for and do you get that on every single piece of evidence that you receive are you able to actually obtain a full DNA profile on every case that is submitted to you no certainly not we do attempt to do that on every item we try we target those same 16 lo sigh and Llosa is just another word for location on the chromosome it's the 16
• 16:30 - 17:00 fragments of DNA that we examine to attempt to get a DNA profile so we attempt to get a profile at those 16 locations on every item but as I mentioned sometimes we get no profile at all no DNA detected at all sometimes it's just a partial meaning that we got an answer or we observed DNA at some of those locations but not at all of them and sometimes we get a mixture of DNA meaning multiple people's DNA is detected at those locations you you
• 17:00 - 17:30 think you said a mixture is it uncommon that you get an item of the evidence such as keys that would have a mixture of DNA on it um well as I often say like there's really no normal in forensics we do typically get mixtures on a lot of different items of evidence I hate to use the word normal because we see all
• 17:30 - 18:00 ends of the spectrum like I said sometimes no DNA sometimes a single source sometimes a partial sometimes a mixture but it is not at all uncommon for us to get a mixture on items especially those that may have you know just by the nature of the item may have been handled or used by multiple people and in this particular case what type of profile were you able to generate from these keys it was a mixture of DNA a
• 18:00 - 18:30 mixture involving multiple people you had submitted to you DNA samples from Derrick Holmes Jerry keen Lakeisha Meyer Quinton Telus Rachel mr. George Douglas mr. Roscoe Speights is that correct that's correct and when you performed the DNA testing on this you
• 18:30 - 19:00 said you got a mixture is that correct correct and I would go well me yes this is the report that I generated
• 19:00 - 19:30 for this case the objection big objects should be marked as being what you get it marked passage to the court please number 36
• 19:30 - 20:00 I do
• 20:00 - 20:30 now believe you had some various pieces
• 20:30 - 21:00 of evidence that were submitted to you in addition to the keys is that correct yes it is I believe you had a Bud Light
• 21:00 - 21:30 bottle or blunt wrappers is that correct yes it was actually two Bud Light bottles and some wrappers correct and were you able to obtain any kind of a DNA profile off of them only from one of the Bud Light bottles the other Bud Light bottle and the wrappers there was no DNA profile obtained okay and I want to go down to conclusion number two when you say a mixed autosomal STR DNA
• 21:30 - 22:00 profile what do you mean so the autosomal profile refers to the chromosomal locations that we targeted as I mentioned before there are 16 locations that we target those are on the autosomal chromosomes which means those are the chromosomes that everyone has there is a chromosome that's unique to males that will I'll talk about in another conclusion the Y chromosome but
• 22:00 - 22:30 autosomal chromosomes are the pairs of chromosomes that our DNA is packaged into that everyone has we all have 23 pairs of autosomal chromosomes in how many individuals did you obtain or how many are individuals are in the mixture that you found on the keys so the autosomal mixture from the keys and the key chains and the lanyard did give a mixture of at least four individuals
• 22:30 - 23:00 okay and Quinton tell us was not one of those on the autosomal is that correct correct through the autosomal testing that autosomal mixture he was excluded from that okay and so was Derek Holmes correct Jerry Lee King yes Lakeisha Meyer yes George Douglas mr. jr. yes Roscoe Speights yes Anna King yes and Mary Tyler correct all right
• 23:00 - 23:30 excluded but Jessica Chambers was included as a possible source of the autosomal mixture is that correct that's right she was included in that mixture yeah number three is the DNA you said you found on the Bud Light bottle and it did not match Jessica Derrick Holmes Jerry Lee King location Myer George mr. Roscoe space Anna King Mary Tyler or
• 23:30 - 24:00 Quentin tells correct they were all excluded from that Bud Light bottle profile okay now I want to go down to conclusion number four and you mentioned a mixed y-str DNA profile and what do you mean by that so this was a second type of DNA testing that I performed on that set of keys so initially as we just discussed I got that autosomal mixture
• 24:00 - 24:30 of at least four individuals so males or females together there was male DNA seen and female DNA seen how we can tell if it's male or female is through the X and Y chromosome so we do target the X and Y chromosome in our analysis on that initial testing of the keys the X chromosome was significant and the Y chromosome indicating male DNA because males only have Y chromosomes excuse me
• 24:30 - 25:00 only males have Y chromosomes that Y chromosome was tiny so that makes it a good candidate for this Y chromosome analysis and this type of DNA testing is a little different because it targets DNA not on all the autosomal chromosomes but only on the y chromosome so it's only targeting male DNA so it's ignoring all the other DNA that might be on those keys and it's targeting just males to perhaps get a better eye
• 25:00 - 25:30 of the male profiles that are included in that mixture so this y-str analysis was also performed on those keys and was once she performing if I and I'm trying to simplify from really for my purposes and you found a y-chromosome in the mixture of the DNA is that correct yes the autosomal mixture indicated that there was some Y chromosome DNA in there some
• 25:30 - 26:00 male DNA but it was significantly less in proportion to the X chromosome that was present okay so there was less male DNA than there was female DK so what was your conclusion concerning Quentin tell us when you performed the Y male only STR DNA testing so that Y STR analysis
• 26:00 - 26:30 which again just targets Y chromosome DNA which typically only males have a Y chromosome still gave a mixture of at least four males however Quentin telus could not be excluded as a potential contributor to that y-str mixture in addition all of his patrilineal male relatives cannot be excluded and the reason for that is all males in the same paternal line should have the same Y
• 26:30 - 27:00 chromosome profile so he nor his patrilineal relatives could be excluded let's start this topic this minute okay Quentin cannot be excluded is that what you're saying correct and neither can any males in his line that's for a lineal line is that correct yes his paternally related males males on his biological father's side okay and or you could continue with your
• 27:00 - 27:30 conclusion on that so yes so and also when we get a mixture on this y-str analysis we have to calculate the frequency of males that could also have that same Y chromosome profile so approximately 99.7% of the male population would be excluded as being a contributor to this mixed STR profile and that particular STR profile has a frequency of 1 in 359 males within his
• 27:30 - 28:00 patrilineal line is that correct and in the general male population as well now what conclusion did you reach could you reach a conclusion as to Jerry King no conclusion could be drawn regarding Jerry King as a contributor to that y-str mixture when we're doing these comparisons so we get a
• 28:00 - 28:30 y-chromosome profile from each of these individual males as their reference profile and compare it to that mixture that was found on the keys mr. King did have some consistencies with that mixture but not enough to reach a firm conclusion so it was inconclusive whether or not Jerry King could be included or excluded on that mixture and what about Derrick Holmes he was excluded from the mixture
• 28:30 - 29:00 turn to the witness your honor
• 29:00 - 29:30 good morning the scales good morning I'm gonna try my best here okay sure I got an A and P Eva violet terrible um basically like you were standing our bodies are made up of cells lots of cells correct correct okay and in the middle of a sale would
• 29:30 - 30:00 be the nucleus that's right and and the nucleus is where our DNA is located in the chromosomes yes this DNA that we're examining that's correct okay and so as far as autosomes is that on the chromosome that refers to the chromosomes themselves are 23 pairs of chromosomes are autosomal chromosomes and then I'm sorry it's actually the 22 pairs and then there's one remaining pair that's our sex chromosomes our X
• 30:00 - 30:30 and our Y okay so the 22 pairs that are in our sale which is 44 individual chromosomes right correct okay and those are more particular to us as individuals it depends on the regions that are targeted the 16 locations that we target have the potential for being you know highly polymorphic between individuals they change a lot between individuals but it depends on the area there are some chromosomes that don't
• 30:30 - 31:00 vary very much some areas of the chromosomes that don't vary much between individuals but the 16 areas that have been developed as those areas that we target for DNA testing are highly individual so the 16 are highly individual to each person for the most part okay and the other two that you spoke about males would have x and y and their females just have XX correct right
• 31:00 - 31:30 females have two X chromosomes and males have an X and a Y correct so in this instance and targeting the 16 I guess of the 22 out of somos yes you came up with you targeted certain well let me rephrase it this way you got buccal swabs from different individuals correct yes for their reference samples yes and as mr. champion said it was about 9
• 31:30 - 32:00 different individuals basically that you were able to test from those swabs yes we had about nine individual reference samples tourniquet and the two different types of testing that we're done let's say first the mixed autosomal DNA well mixed out of summer STR DNA that would be a bit more particular and precise as to determining whether or not a person's
• 32:00 - 32:30 DNA was on something correct so autosomal DNA testing is statistically stronger than Y chromosome analysis because of the fact that all males in the same paternal line share that Y chromosome profile whereas each person's individual autosomal profile is considered to be more or less unique to them with the exception of identical twins so statistically autosomal testing is statistically stronger okay so in this
• 32:30 - 33:00 instance the testing that was done that statistically would be stronger and more accurate Quinton tell us was excluded from that he was excluded but I want to just back up to the use of the word accurate just because it's more statistically significant doesn't mean that Y chromosome testing is you know less accurate or more prone to
• 33:00 - 33:30 inaccuracies or mistakes so results that are generated through Y chromosome testing are accurate they just are not statistically as strong okay so let me ask again then on the first type of testing the mixed out of some o STR DNA on that particular type because the autosomal or our autosomes are more particular to us as individuals statistically that type of testing is stronger yes it is
• 33:30 - 34:00 statistically stronger okay and in this particular testing Quentin tell us was excluded correct okay and I noticed that if you will go to page two I'm sorry page three it talks about that second testing you agree with that I'm
• 34:00 - 34:30 sorry I'm not sure I'm following your class I'm sorry you see number two on there who it talks about a mixed out of someone yes Str the testing that we're talking about now yes okay it talks about it consisting of at least four individuals correct right because that's what you received after your testing that's correct okay and then it goes on to listing the persons who were excluded that's right okay
• 34:30 - 35:00 Derrick Holmes Jerry Lee King it says Lakeisha Meyers George mr. Russell's bytes and a king and Mary Tyner are excluded as potential contributors to this mixed DNA profile correct it does not stay on there that Quentin tell us was excluded correct that was discovered afterwards through another review that his name was left off that list of
• 35:00 - 35:30 excluded individuals okay so that is incorrect as far as how its listed but it has come to your realization that he was indeed excluded that's correct yes it was in our case notes his name was left off the list of excluded individuals on the report and so as far as we know there has been no person identified for the mixed
• 35:30 - 36:00 autosomal testing the only one that was not excluded was Jessica chambers of the people that we tested yes okay and then moving to the second type of testing not as strong but tests for specifically the Y chromosome which is male correct okay
• 36:00 - 36:30 and that would be number four again it's the same profile that says that consisting of at least four mill individuals correct yes and it says that you said that I think you said see I can't get my words out significantly less female was present is that what you testified to well no on the autosomal
• 36:30 - 37:00 test the first make sure that we just talked about one of the 16 areas that we target is the sex chromosomes x and y to give us an indication of if there's male or female or both and both an X chromosome and a Y chromosome were seen in that autosomal testing but the Y chromosome was significantly less indicating that there was less male DNA than female and those situations are kind of ideal for attempting Y
• 37:00 - 37:30 chromosome analysis because it could indicate that a lot of that female DNA may be masking some of that small amount of male DNA that could be there so Y chromosome analysis was then performed on those keys okay do you typically if you start out where in the mix autosomal testing if you start out and a person has been excluded do you continue on with the second type of testing the
• 37:30 - 38:00 mixed y-str testing we do depending on the nature of the sample itself again because we saw just a very small y-chromosome peak on that mixture it indicated that the amounts of male and female DNA were not even and it could be a matter of some small amounts of male DNA potentially being masked by that higher level of female DNA so in that situation it is again a kind of a prime
• 38:00 - 38:30 candidate for Y chromosome analysis if we had a mixture of individuals where the x and y peak were even typically Y chromosome analysis may offer no advantage in that type of scenario so y chromosome analysis may not be done in that case but this case where the Y chromosome in the autosomal testing was so significantly less than the X chromosome testing it is a good candidate for that Y chromosome analysis so even though I'm not sure if I'm
• 38:30 - 39:00 asking the same thing again even though in the first testing which appears to be statistically stronger that Quentin telus was excluded completely there was an additional testing which would target for the Y chromosome I guess I'm not understanding why was there additional testing when he had been excluded I'll give you a good case example that I use
• 39:00 - 39:30 a lot when describing Y chromosome analysis and this is an item of evidence completely unrelated to this case but it's a good kind of teaching tool so an alleged weapon in a murder case was a knife the victim was female and the supposed murder weapon was covered in blood the blade and a lot of the handle so typically in a case like that I will try and process the blood to get the DNA
• 39:30 - 40:00 from the blood and also try and process the handle to see if there's any indication of whose DNA may have been on the handle well because there was a significant amount of blood on the handle when processing that handle only female DNA was seen doing the autosomal DNA analysis why chromosome analysis is done afterwards to essentially ignore all of that female DNA because there's a high
• 40:00 - 40:30 amount of it from the blood on that handle y chromosome analysis has done to hopefully pick up on any male DNA that may have been overshadowed by that overwhelming amount of female DNA in the blood so it's not uncommon to follow follow autosomal testing with y chromosome analysis especially when a female victim or a high level of female DNA is seen in initial autosomal testing and in this instance though there were actually four male individuals that were
• 40:30 - 41:00 taken from or at least listed in the profile that's correct so the Y chromosome analysis was done and it did still indicate multiple males at least four males were in the Y chromosome testing and then the statement in for where he cannot be excluded as a potential contributor that does not necessarily mean that his DNA was on the keys it just means that he cannot be
• 41:00 - 41:30 excluded as a potential contributor am I saying that properly that's right I can't ever say that it is his DNA I can say only that he cannot be excluded as a potential contributor because his DNA is seen within that mixture his genetic markers his Y chromosome markers are seen within that Y chromosome mixture but you can't say that it's necessarily
• 41:30 - 42:00 his DNA because of those markers those 16 markers that are targeted he can't be you can't say that it's his DNA that's correct I can't say it's his only that he cannot be excluded but we can say that he was excluded and the stronger test in the autosomal testing correct he was excluded
• 42:00 - 42:30 of course indulge us just a moment
• 42:30 - 43:00 all right redirect yeah just so that URI understands the autosomal is going to be more accurate or strong when you have an individual profile that you can pull is that
• 43:00 - 43:30 correct so again I don't like the word accurate but so yes I think what you're trying to ask is if there's a single source profile obtained from an item of evidence if it's in other words not a mixture if it's one person's individual profile obtained from an item of evidence that can be exactly matched to someone's DNA reference profile the
• 43:30 - 44:00 statistics are stronger for that type of a match you can see an exact match between the evidence and that person's individual profile and again those statistics excuse me I mentioned earlier the frequency of that profile is less than one in nine hundred nine hundred and ninety nine trillion with mixtures it's a little bit different we are instead of seeing an exact match we are looking for that person's reference DNA markers within the mixture so the
• 44:00 - 44:30 statistics that we have to use when handling that are different exclusion probabilities have to be calculated and it is not quite as statistically significant as this one in nine hundred and ninety nine trillion match okay and then when you when you can't look at that but you see a y-chromosome does that tell you that there is male DNA in that mixture yes the presence of a
• 44:30 - 45:00 y-chromosome peak however small it may be does indicate there's male DNA within that mixture okay and what you were talking about a minute ago if I understand in this particular case you said the the female X chromosome was masking the Y chromosome is that correct well the X chromosome was significantly higher than the Y chromosome which means the level
• 45:00 - 45:30 of female DNA or X chromosome DNA in that mixture is significantly higher and there's the potential for small amounts of male DNA to be masked or hidden by higher levels of someone else's DNA use this as an example an amusing example use a moment go to the blood the blood in your case which we knew was from a vivo female victim on top of the handle and so what you did was through your
• 45:30 - 46:00 testing was to eliminate this to look and see what was underneath it is that basically correct well yes so when you're when I swab the handle of course I'm gonna swab up some of that blood as well so any cells that may have been on the handle are swab dup as well as that high level of blood so that high level of female blood in that particular case masked the very tiny amount of male contact DNA that was also on the handle
• 46:00 - 46:30 and so again that was a prime candidate or a very good use for y chromosome analysis so it's essentially ignoring all that female DNA because it's only targeting Y chromosome DNA which only males have so the testing is specific to male chromosome is that correct that's correct okay and once she realized in this case that you had a large amount of X chromosomes is that the reason you went to look for the Y chromosome
• 46:30 - 47:00 exactly because the the y component was significantly smaller it's a again kind of a prime candidate situation for that Y chromosome analysis to help ignore all that higher level of female DNA and zero in on that Y chromosome DNA and if I understand your testimony and your report Quentin tell us is y chromosome are art is on those keys he cannot be
• 47:00 - 47:30 excluded as a contributor to that y-chromosome mixture as well as the male rep I can't say the males in his side of the family is that correct paternally related males yes nothing further your honor she may be finally released thank you for coming you found the excuse you may remain in the courtroom if you wish or you may leave thank you they call you next witness
• 47:30 - 48:00 little early for our morning recess but I've been advised that there are some matters I want to take up outside of your presence some matters that I'll have to deal with some matters of law and also there's I think one of the next witnesses we're going to have some equipment set up here for you so I'm alone and put you in recess now - you jury room and I will send for you when we're ready thank you