Joe Rogan Experience #2275 - Magnus Carlsen

Summary

In this captivating episode of the Joe Rogan Experience, Magnus Carlsen, the reigning World Chess Champion, delves into his chess journey, cheating controversies in the chess world, and the massive influence of technology on modern chess. The conversation covers Magnus's childhood influences, the nuances of chess cheating, and the role of AI in reshaping strategy. They explore Carlsen's philosophy on learning, preparation in chess, and maintaining passion for the game despite external pressures.

Highlights

• Magnus started playing chess at the age of five but wasn't initially interested in the game, preferring Legos and sports statistics 🧩.
• His desire to outperform his older sister played a crucial role in igniting his passion for chess 💪.
• The chess world is buzzing with young talents due to accessible information, with players reaching grandmaster status at increasingly younger ages 🎓.
• Magnus shares amusing insights into how bizarre theories, like cheating with vibrating anal beads, garner unwanted attention but highlight the game's challenges 🎭.
• Controversies, like cheating, are seen as publicity drivers for chess, albeit with their drawbacks ⚡.
• Magnus finds balance by integrating enjoyment in his chess practice, straying away from the grind mentality 🎈.

Key Takeaways

• Magnus Carlsen's competitive spirit was ignited by wanting to beat his sister in chess 🎯.
• Chess has evolved significantly with technology, leading to younger grandmasters and advanced strategies 🤖.
• Controversies like the chess cheating scandal have propelled the game's publicity but pose challenges around trust🔍.
• Chess players use Artificial Intelligence to enhance their strategies and understand their opponent's moves better ⚙️.
• Magnus emphasizes passion and fun in chess, advocating for a balanced approach rather than obsessive grinding 🎉.
• Magnus's flexibility and spontaneity, like randomizing openings, keep his game fresh and unpredictable 🔄.

Overview

Joe Rogan and Magnus Carlsen engage in an enlightening conversation, offering a deep dive into the expansive world of chess, from its history to modern-day controversies. Magnus opens up about his early days and how his competitive spirit against his sister sparked his interest in chess. As they navigate through his journey, listeners get insights into the world of young chess talents, making headlines through their achievements at remarkably early ages.

Magnus and Joe dive into a fascinating discussion about the impact of technology and Artificial Intelligence on chess, highlighting how it's transformed training and strategy. Cheating controversies, such as the infamous theory involving vibrating anal beads, are dissected with humor and insight, emphasizing the continuing evolution of chess ethics and competition integrity. Joe and Magnus also touch on the trust and psychological elements linked to alleged cheating incidents.

Throughout the conversation, Magnus emphasizes the importance of maintaining passion and enjoyment in chess, arguing against the monotonous grind. He shares how personal enjoyment and spontaneous decisions, like randomizing his opening moves, contribute significantly to his success. The episode wraps up by showcasing Magnus's humility and understanding of his place in the chess world, celebrating both his achievements and the inspiring fervor he brings to the game.

Chapters

• 00:00 - 10:00: Intro and Early Chess Life The chapter starts with Joe Rogan introducing his podcast and guests, including Magnus Carlsen and Tony Hinchliff. Joe jokes about needing coffee to keep up with Magnus, who is noted as being a significant presence. Tony Hinchliff is mentioned as a huge chess fan, setting the stage for a discussion on chess.
• 10:00 - 25:00: Chess Cheating Controversy In this chapter, the focus is on a controversy surrounding cheating in chess. The conversation begins with an anecdote about the excitement and surprise among individuals upon learning about someone's visit, highlighting the presence of Tony, a notable figure. The discussion shifts to marvel at the dedication and skill of top chess players, sparking curiosity about their practice habits and early beginnings in the game. A personal connection to chess is revealed as one participant shares that their father, an enthusiastic chess player, likely influenced their own involvement in the game.
• 25:00 - 54:10: Chess Preparation and Mindset The speaker discusses their early exposure to chess, which started around the age of five. Initially, they were not very interested in the game, showing more interest in other hobbies like Legos, math, sports statistics, and collecting information about countries, including their flags, population, and area. This chapter reflects on the speaker's preference for statistical and factual data collection over chess in their younger years.
• 54:10 - 83:20: Chess Computers and AI The chapter discusses the speaker's initial lack of interest in chess, and how their perspective changed as they began to engage more with the game. Initially, the speaker was more interested in other activities such as reading the sports section, and did not find chess particularly exciting. However, observing their older sister play chess with their father sparked their interest. This shift in interest was also fueled by a strong desire to outperform their sister in various endeavors, which made chess become an integral part of their life.
• 83:20 - 104:00: Cheating Consequences and Chess Culture The chapter explores the personal journey of an individual whose passion for chess was sparked by a competitive spirit against their sister. Although the sister initially shared an interest in chess, she grew to dislike it once her sibling began to surpass her skill level. This humorous sibling rivalry marks the beginning of the individual's deep engagement with chess, turning it from a hobby into a career. The narrative reflects on the cultural and personal impacts of chess, highlighting how friendly competition can inspire lifelong pursuits.
• 104:00 - 116:00: Music and Chess The chapter explores the parallels between music and chess, focusing on how both disciplines require dedication, practice, and sometimes a little push to realize one's potential. The narrator reflects on their journey, mentioning that despite there being a standard set for young players—like achieving grandmaster status at a certain age—many start their training very early to achieve such feats. The anecdote about attending a tournament in India underscores the global and competitive nature of the field.
• 116:00 - 123:00: Conclusion The chapter discusses the emergence of young chess talents. There is a mention of a 3-year-old rated A600, an impressive feat for his age. The narrative further highlights a remarkable 10-year-old from Argentina, dubbed the 'Messi of Chess,' who is on a rapid path to becoming a grandmaster. These young players exemplify the extraordinary skills and potential in the chess world at such early ages.

Joe Rogan Experience #2275 - Magnus Carlsen Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan podcast by night all day all right we're up and roll Magnus Carlon ladies and gentlemen you want some coffee no oh this is water uh tell Jeff to bring in the coffee forgot to bring in the coffee no no I'm good with water well I need coffee I'm going to keep up with you buddy and of course Tony hinchliff is here who's a gigantic chess fan and just
• 00:30 - 01:00 his pants yesterday when I told him you were coming in and then immediately I said you got to come with me and so Tony's here as well it's an honor to meet you man um I I I'm always fascinated by people that are at the top of something that's insanely difficult like chess and I'm always wondering like how much time is involved how much how often do you play and when did you start how old were you when you first started playing I think my dad my dad is an avid chess player so I think he uh t thought
• 01:00 - 01:30 that I might have some Talent so he thought he taught me pretty early at around five years old but at that time I wasn't that interested uh I was mostly into Legos and I was into math and like sports stats and I had my little flag book with all um all the countries in the world their flags and their inhabitants and area and everything and I sort of that that's what I did uh generally just um taking in all the all the stats that I
• 01:30 - 02:00 could also with with sports reading the sports section every day and I didn't find chess that fun uh a couple years later uh my older sister who year and a half older than me she had she did a lot of chess with with my dad I started sitting in on them a bit and um I I started liking it I really really wanted to beat my sister as well at generally everything and uh yeah from there on it really just became uh became my thing
• 02:00 - 02:30 and it's you know been my main Hobby and uh eventually work as well since yeah obviously yeah it's F it's so funny though a spark a competitive spark with your sister is really what ignited you to get going with it yeah the the funny thing is like she's not competitive at all so she hated the fact that I like I wanted to play especially when I I I realized that I could beat her uh and she she she liked chess but she stopped for for a while and only started when I
• 02:30 - 03:00 had become like good enough that there wasn't a competition so it turned like like my dad was right after all I just needed um I just needed that um that extra push yeah what a what a call I think you've got some Talent what a call grandm 12 was it um 13 so actually the um the record is um the record is 12 but uh most kids these days honestly they they start so early uh I was at a tournament in India
• 03:00 - 03:30 a few months ago and there's this guy who's like A600 rated player and he's 3 years old and like I I'm seeing I'm seeing the I'm seeing the games like they are actually they're actually decent um and yeah now there there's this one kid from Argentina like they call him the Messi of Chess who's going to become a grandmas soon I think he's he's only 10 so they're they're really really
• 03:30 - 04:00 uh playing early these days but it's it's it's good to see though because like information is so easily accessible these days like it takes a lot shorter time to to get to get good at something well it seems like now uh chess because of social media it's like everything else it's kind of exploding because there's so many fascinating videos out and then of course there was like the big controversy with that uh young man who you believe is a a big old cheater that guy I I needed no the anal beads
• 04:00 - 04:30 thing is that a legitimate Theory so it actually started in one of U my friends streamer channel that like one random guy said made made a comment about anal beads and he was and he was like H yeah maybe and then uh I think it it became it started taking the rounds in Reddit and then Elon saw it tweeted about it and then obviously it blew up
• 04:30 - 05:00 um I I actually spoke to um I I think it was Mark andreon who said like that would be one way to do it yes but I really really really don't believe that that has happened like I think it has no um no connection to reality but it just became it a thing of its own so unfortunately this young man we we'll explain the anal beads thing but this this young man is a very talented player but does has have a
• 05:00 - 05:30 history of some Shenanigans correct and even admitted that he did a little bit of cheating in order to move his rating higher so he could play better players yeah I mean he he's not admitted to nearly the extent of of his of his cheating uh but if you sort of um if you sort of take what what ches com say then yeah um his he cheated a bunch online in
• 05:30 - 06:00 uh in a certain period of time um partly in tournaments but mostly in in casual games as as he set himself to um to sort of uh get himself up the standings and play the best players in the world but he is a very good player I think he has become a good very good player yeah interesting okay so what made you convinced that he was cheating in that particular game and by what method do you think he could Poss possibly have
• 06:00 - 06:30 been doing this could you hear something was it like burn you're hearing vibrations his his seed shift yeah you're smelling something there's a wh of something in the air um yeah I mean that would have been um would have been the Smoking Gun I suppose but I think it there was a combination of um of things though uh based on you know the chess level that I uh that I
• 06:30 - 07:00 thought that he he had and that I'd seen from from his game both playing against him analyzing a little with him and looking at his at his other games um there were a lot of stories um back then um the thing is also there's um there's a Netflix documentary coming in a few months that sort of EX where I'm telling my side of the story um so I like I
• 07:00 - 07:30 cannot go too deep into uh into everything but what I can say was that there were there were a lot of factors um that made me very very suspicious um and um I think ever since then he has become better uh but there's some still something uh there's still something off um both then and and now but yeah that's
• 07:30 - 08:00 so fascinating that as an elite chess player you'd be able to recognize that something is happening that's outside of his capabilities again um I'm not ruling out the factor that chess players are becoming more and more paranoid because we do have chess engines that basically have perfect chess right like anybody with their their phone can as I think Elon tweeted to to Gary once like my
• 08:00 - 08:30 iPhone can beat you at chess which is which is which is the truth and this means that you know anybody having access to information it's it's incredibly it's in incredibly dangerous and I think top level chess has been a lot based on on trust and um whenever you have Outsiders whom there are these stories about everybody gets a bit a bit
• 08:30 - 09:00 jittery there there's like as people who either like they burst onto the scene then then they establish themselves and people people know that they're legit and so on it's it's not um it's not a problem with with him specifically um I don't know it was um it's just he doesn't seem to be playing or it didn't at that point seem to be playing with
• 09:00 - 09:30 um with a particular style it seemed that he either played kind of eh or he just more or less played any position very well in in certain games like he could just switch from tactical to positional play very easily and uh it was um yeah it didn't didn't smell good to me it still it still doesn't but um you know to some extent like he
• 09:30 - 10:00 he had his uh he had his lawsuit we've all kind of moved a little bit on I think I don't trust him a lot of other top players still don't trust him um he certainly doesn't uh doesn't trust me or ches Loom orario or whomever he felt wronged by um but the problem is like once someone admits that they cheated game especially
• 10:00 - 10:30 a game that has a lot of trust in it like chess you're always going to think like is he cheating now always but the question is like what method like what what do people do so if you're sitting there you have no phone your pockets are empty like what could you be doing that could possibly be aiding you well first of all like an invisible air piece um that people use for exams and so on like so but he would have to have a partner with that yeah yeah he he would yeah yeah um that would not have been
• 10:30 - 11:00 detected by the security system that they um they used at that tournament um they amped up the security after the whole thing happened check your ears yeah yeah they they started checking their our ears and then um you know we had a live tournament in in Paris last year where I played him where there was proper security where all of these things would be picked up and he didn't like he didn't play to nearly the same uh to nearly the same
• 11:00 - 11:30 level there um so I think I I well I'm not an expert in all of that but that's what I've heard from people that that's like the most obvious thing that it could have uh that someone could have done and it wouldn't be really that hard to pull off considering the kind of um security we have at at chess tournament and this tournament had like a little bit of security a lot of them like open tournaments uh people are like one ing in and out of the playing Hall there are
• 11:30 - 12:00 people in the playing Hall like Spectators with their um um with their smartphones uh on and taking pictures or or whatever like going in and out like they could make signals it's it's um yeah it's it's it's it's it's hard it's it's a big problem in chess for sure yeah the so the anal beads thing for people don't know what we're talking about the the theory was that he had vibrating anal beads that would
• 12:00 - 12:30 somehow or another through some sort of code explain to him the moves and I've thought about this for a lot longer than I care to admit like what what kind of code are you getting from inside your butt that you're like okay I got it well it would be like you know C4 or whatever like it could tell you by how would it say in your butt though well I mean i' have to show you luckily I brought one yeah so I'm in right now no it would be like it would
• 12:30 - 13:00 it would Buzz right it would Buzz the letters and then the numbers that would indicate where you would move and there would only be a piece or two so like the first three vibrations would be letter C and then yeah okay um yeah it's just a sort of tech technological version of ways people have cheated before there was a scandal back in 2010 where um the captain of the French team was helping one of his um one of the French players by eating he was basically just standing
• 13:00 - 13:30 in certain spots around the table to tell him where toow where to move oh wow that's crazy oh wow dirty people out there it's wild well it's such a competitive thing whenever you have competitive things you always have people that just want to win at any cost right yeah it's also funny that um one of his teammates from that tournament uh worked with me for a long time and he told me at like this guy was like going out every night not taking
• 13:30 - 14:00 the tournament seriously at all but yeah he had a good reason like he knew he was going to he's partying he knew he was going to win that's hilarious so that is that the most egregious form of cheating that you've ever seen or heard of um no I I I actually played an open tournament in Denmark about 20 years ago where there was a guy who was playing Grandmaster in the first round like this was not a very good player and he was he came drunk to the table and just literally pulled out his phone and opened open the chess program but of
• 14:00 - 14:30 course like he was immediately um so that that wasn't of course nearly as as nefarious but yeah that's just a [ __ ] yeah yeah he was just yeah probably um some other some other issues there there's just such a it is such a fascinating game because it's impossible to play if you're dumb like there's games that you could just be a savant like an idiot savant but chess is like it's the most impressive thing for
• 14:30 - 15:00 people to be unbelievably good at I I don't know I think you can be I think you be can be dumb and be like fairly good at at chess um I think it it like some intelligence certainly certainly helps but after all um you a lot of Chess is about learning patterns right and basically anybody can can do that so like applying them at a higher level learning how to evaluate and so on
• 15:00 - 15:30 that sort of is what sets the the really the best players apart from uh from merely good players but I feel like anybody could come become um quite decent at um at the game but I do love the fact that you know uh there are no coincidences like there are no outside factors well if you uh if you don't talk other than cheating of course um but it's just um um yeah were either outsmarting your opponent or you're
• 15:30 - 16:00 getting outsmarted so for a guy like you that excels above all what is the difference in your preparation is it just simply who you are as a person you think or is it something about the difference in your preparation without giving away any secrets obviously um I'm like known in in the Chess World for being like a little bit lazy I think uh the the thing is that I um
• 16:00 - 16:30 can I pause you yeah yeah what do you mean lazy like how's that possible no the thing is like I've never been the kind of person who wakes up in the morning Works six seven hours and and chess like a normal a normal job and then um because a lot of them study computers exactly like I've I think about the game all the time like I play online I I look at I look at games I me read some youever play anonymously I
• 16:30 - 17:00 used to do that all the time um what a blood bath that must be but but I think I got humbled um One Time by this Russian grandmas who um asked somebody else asked me like if a certain account on a certain website was me and I was like yeah um I don't know like I don't know who that is and this guy went like yes that is you and he listed up like five other accounts that
• 17:00 - 17:30 I thought nobody knew about that wow that were that were by the way you play yeah I think it's it's it's playing strength playing style because I I tried to switch up my openings on different accounts to not make it obvious that it's it's me and and I have like a style where I switch that up a lot so it makes it a bit easier but I think you could just tell by um by the playing style so that is crazy these these days I just I play with my um my own name um I like I'm I
• 17:30 - 18:00 don't really care about that anymore yeah um so do most professional players study chess all day long at the highest level I think um I think quite a few do uh I I mean I don't know like people's day-to-day activities so you guys don't talk about it not that much um the people that I've worked with they
• 18:00 - 18:30 certainly study chess a lot uh but others I'm I'm not quite sure um the thing is that chess has always like still been a bit of a hobby for me that once it start starts to feel like work then it's it's it's it's harder for me I had a I had a chess coach when I was uh when I was little I I went to have sessions once a week which I loved and then he started giving me homework and like yeah I I I told him like quickly
• 18:30 - 19:00 like I yeah I don't I don't like I don't like homework but I would but I would still spend a lot of time like reading books playing online this the things that I still do but I would do them for fun and and that was the difference between me and the other kids is that they would go to chess practice they would maybe even do their homework but they weren't living and breathing um sort of the game that that uh in the way that I was like think about it all the time like I'm thinking
• 19:00 - 19:30 about the game while I'm sitting on on this chair like I'm still analyzing a game that I played today like it never goes completely out of out of my mind um and I think a lot of very good chess players do that but like casual chess players no of course so maybe the thing is discipline versus enthusiasm enthusiasm causes Obsession and enjoyment which probably leads to better retention of information whereas just
• 19:30 - 20:00 pure discipline for the sake of like I have to do the work in order to get better you're missing this enjoyment you're missing this enthusiasm for it that you have managed to although absorbing so much information and playing all the time you've managed to keep it playful and fun I think so I think this is definitely the way that works for me maybe for others um I I think for anybody like if you want to be great at something you have to be obsessed with it yes and yeah it has to
• 20:00 - 20:30 come from it has to come from within like nobody can um yeah maybe in in certain in certain Sports you can get you can get that good purely by very very targeted practice and a lot of load of hours but um yeah I I think um for me it's just the way that it's just the way that it um that it works and um I do like process the even though like I I don't necessarily study like I don't
• 20:30 - 21:00 don't deliberately practice all the time I still process the information so it's still whatever whatever the method is it certainly works but it's interesting because you've been able to excel above so many and it makes me wonder like what I always am fascinated by some whether it's a Tiger Woods or whether whatever the the athlete is or whatever the the game they play what separates the very best from everyone else like I know in
• 21:00 - 21:30 martial arts there's a series of factors that have to do with genetics training coaches sparring partners and then ultimately discipline and drive but with chess it's all mental is physical has nothing to do with it so do you think it's a genetic thing do you think you have a unique mind for chess is this you think it's this balance that you keep with enthusiasm and Obsession like what do you think separates you from everyone
• 21:30 - 22:00 else I think it has to be a um a variety of factors I think there's no doubt that I'm incredibly naturally gifted at the game like otherwise I wouldn't have come come this far and my my dad um is incredibly good with with numbers he started playing chess quite late but became um but became decent like my mother was quite smart and my sisters are very uh intelligent too
• 22:00 - 22:30 so like it's clear that you know um there are some good good genes and I just you know I happen to find also an environment early on um where I lived near alsoo which had um the probably the best chest environment there was in in Norway at the very least where there were um I had access to to coaches and I had access to like a little training group of of other ambitious
• 22:30 - 23:00 kids um after that you know um I think the most important thing that I've that I've done is that I haven't really listened to people who want me to do things like a certain way because that's the way things have always been done especially with uh the Soviet chess school that was the dominant one for for so many years so I've always sort of gone my own way try to have as much um
• 23:00 - 23:30 fun everything has to be about enjoyment and yeah I I cannot tell you why but I just like understand the game better better than the others like I I'm I don't calculate necessarily as far as the other but my intuition like for short lines um constantly evaluating is is just is just better it's just it it's always just such an interesting
• 23:30 - 24:00 thing to analyze like high performers you know and just to wonder like what it is that separates High performers when you say your father started playing late how old was he oh I think he started playing um about 14 15 something like that I I in in chess that's that's very but he never he never like took it took it seriously enough that that he wanted to like he he pursued it but um as a hobby as a hobby yeah well you when you say
• 24:00 - 24:30 take it seriously you mean like you do right what this is what makes me think about epigenetics like I we we still don't exactly know how much information is transferred between parents to children and it seems like there's a lot of talents whether it's like singing Talent OR Sports talent that you have to wonder like is that coming from genes or is that coming from the environment which his child grows up which his person or is it a combination of all those factors like I wonder if someone gets really an very intelligent person
• 24:30 - 25:00 gets very good at chess early on I wonder if some information or some proclivity for the game gets transferred I I think uh the reaction in in the chess community at least with certain people was uh more along the lines of how could such a lousy player have such a good son at chess with with my dad um and the the fact is as well that I the there are practically no um there
• 25:00 - 25:30 are many couples of um you know uh like both mother and father are Grandmasters in chess but I don't think any of them have had Sons or daughters that are Grandmasters so where whereas you see anywhere like in the NBA or the NHL or in football or wherever like it happens all the time um so I I don't I cannot say exactly why that is but it does
• 25:30 - 26:00 suggest that you know uh it's not a given at least with genetics that you're um that your children are are going to I have an alternate theory for that I wonder if you're a child and your parents are absolutely obsessed with a game if it's annoying and and you're like [ __ ] this game like I want to go play in the park and my parents don't even pay attention to me this is [ __ ] right you know like like there's a lot of children of Alcoholics that will not drink they won't even try it cuz they've seen the effects of but I wonder that if it's like you see cuz
• 26:00 - 26:30 chess is an obsessive game like I remember when Howard Stern was playing it and I would listen to him talk about it on the radio and about how he started hiring a coach and he was playing all the time and he's improving his rating this I was like oh this is eating up your mind like it's a game that gets in your bones it really does because like the entry is not so easy right like you don't like just get it immediately and you don't necessarily get enjoyment out of it immediately as you start to
• 26:30 - 27:00 play so you have to spend you have to spend time on it and then I think when you're trying to do something hard then it becomes much more rewarding and it becomes it's easier for that to become an obsession when when it you start to get that reward so the good thing about that controversy with cheating was that I think it elevated the profile of Chess because it became mainstream news it was like a a big issue do like I think there was a positive aspect of it in terms of
• 27:00 - 27:30 the publicity of the game do you do you agree with that oh yeah for sure um I I think for uh for any for you know for any field of uh that's trying to to achieve something you know with with publicity there's always going to be um a little bit of of a negative with what exactly we're we're connected with right because this is uh everybody knows chess and cheating but overall I think it's been it's been massively uh massively
• 27:30 - 28:00 positive um you know hopefully the uh the Netflix thing going coming up in a year even though like you explain it to people what it's a Netflix Untold documentary so basically it's a series of uh Sports documentaries and they're doing that it's not something that I like wanted to necessarily be be part of but I do recognize the fact that these things raise the profile of of of the game and and you see now like
• 28:00 - 28:30 every everywhere people people like it CH is showing up in people's algorithms on YouTube Tik Tok Instagram everywhere so it's just like much more in the in the Z guide than it used to be yeah it's it's certainly showing up on mine it shows up on mine all yours right oh yeah well you've always been a giant chess fan well it's actually a newer thing but when I when I got into it it was just everything now it's what I do right before bed I fall asleep usually I fall
• 28:30 - 29:00 asleep during actual games online on my phone you're driving him crazy how could that like how could that happen I'm exhausted what do you do when you wake up oh that's that's the yeah it's total opposite L yeah no I I wake up and I look at the board and it said you resigned because I went over my time or whatever I ran just ran out of time how many times have you resigned it happens an embarrassing lot amount it's how I fall asleep now is playing chess
• 29:00 - 29:30 but what you will appreciate is that when I fall asleep playing chess like when I fall asleep I'm still playing the game in my dream sometimes and sometimes the game will go all night and it'll be like this never ending game and pieces will pop back up that I've already gone that that sounds amazing like I would like obviously that would never happen to me like I I I I you know I like to play a game of chess on my on my my phone or my iPad whenever I have when I have some time especially like if
• 29:30 - 30:00 I know that I have 15 minutes or whatever and then if something comes up like my wife tells me like I have to be somewhere I have to do something it's like can you just finish the game like no I cannot resign the game what are you talking about yeah yeah obviously that's different though yeah you can't just resign that's no you got to ride that [ __ ] out yeah this episode is brought to you by zero day a new Netflix limited series this conspiracy Thriller is about a
• 30:00 - 30:30 devastating Cyber attack that Downs America's infrastructure take a listen thousands died on zero day Congress is authorizing a special zero day commission you're just going to grab people off the streets without warrants actually you are I run this investigation not the White House not the CIA if the public finds out how deep this really is I don't think we survived
• 30:30 - 31:00 Robert dairo is absolutely legendary in his first TV series and you don't really know if he's the good guy or the bad guy till the end zero day has an incredible Supporting Cast including Angela bassette Jesse plens Lizzie Kaplan and Connie Brittain zero day is now playing only on Netflix yeah that would be like psychologically torturous right um yeah especially if it if
• 31:00 - 31:30 especially if I'm playing somebody whom I'm who is a little bit of a rival but it's like yeah no that's not that's not going to happen no chance because like every time like I lose games it's it's a little bit of a story right in in the Chess World so I prefer to happen as as solom as as possible I played a little bit of Chess when I was young but I I never really got into it but my real introduction where I got fascinated with chess was actually at a pool hall because people in the pool hall would
• 31:30 - 32:00 play chess sometimes but there was this one guy who went to jail and uh in jail he learned how to play chess with his head in his in his mind and then there was a young kid who was a Grandmaster who was like 16 17 years old somewhere around then really really good chess player who kind of like lost his way and started hanging around in pool halls and gambling and being a weirdo and I watched these two guys play chess with just words and I was like what are you
• 32:00 - 32:30 doing like what I was like I think I was 22 or 23 at the time and I was like what are you doing and they're explaining to me that they're playing chess memorizing the board in their head and I'm like that's [ __ ] crazy and then I saw a video of you blindfolded playing how many people how many how many people did you play was the most people you've ever played blindfolded I think I've played 12 uh but the world record is something like 50 it's that's that's crazy crazy 12 you've played 12 people
• 32:30 - 33:00 blindfolded yeah um for me that's as long as people are the people I'm playing are kind of decent at chess that actually kind of make that makes it easier because it's easier to store the games when I recognize the patterns and so on when people start making weird moves that I cannot really recognize oh so this this is another one actually this is a blindfold timed simil like there are fewer games but what's Difficult about
• 33:00 - 33:30 these is that the moves do not come to me in a sequence so like uh the percenter will tell me on boo on board um two e takes D5 and then all of a sudden on board one E6 and then on board on board two again and so on so that that makes a bit um oh see if to jump back and forth so in the other games there's a sequence where the player even though if they know what move they're going to take they must wait until they turn ex exactly that's
• 33:30 - 34:00 kind of the normal way of playing um of playing a Simo I think the last time that I played a proper blindfold Simo was at an event um in Vienna back in I I think 2015 and then I had some very nice but spicy Chinese food before the game I I sat down and like my stomach was acting up I couldn't think so I I I played for 10 minutes I realized that I cannot do this I like I ran away for for
• 34:00 - 34:30 15 minutes and then I came back and I finished I finished the game but ever ever since that um it feels like um I've like I've done it but it and now it just seems incredibly incredibly hard to um to do again but do you prepare when you're doing something like this when you're getting ready to do a blindfolded multi-game thing no not really because it's like if if my mind is on then it's really not that hard I
• 34:30 - 35:00 feel um so no uh I the the preparation that I do is right there I see my my opponents so like I sign a certain phase to a certain seat like a certain number and and and so on uh so that's just about what what I uh what I do so you assign their face and you think of their face as they're playing yeah yeah face like number one it's that
• 35:00 - 35:30 appliation yeah and so on and are you what are you seeing in your mind when you're envisioning the the table when you're when you're looking at the board are you are are you merely thinking of positions are you actually thinking of the pieces like how are you breaking it down no I just see the chessboard in my head just see a completely like 3D chessboard in your head yeah so it's um and then when I'm playing a Simo I just really think about
• 35:30 - 36:00 one at a time and I I kind of store the others um away and um but that's so crazy like when your five six moves in and you're thinking of all these pieces moving around and you've got it re remembered you've completely memorized each position of 12 different boards yeah so so like the difficult difficult part of it that where things sometimes go wrong is that so generally I remember all the games that I've played but I don't remember every move I
• 36:00 - 36:30 remember like the in Broad Strokes what happened and this is what can happen in these blindfold games as well sometimes like I I can remember everything that's going on but maybe there's a Pawn on the side that I cannot remember if it moved one square or not that's the thing that can be um that can be um difficult and I I do we used to have these blindf like professional tournaments actually um that used to be like both fun but
• 36:30 - 37:00 also totally exhausting um and then we would play on on a computer so we'd have like a blank like a blank chess board where we would just click from one square to another and then whenever your opponent moved their move would would pop up on on the screen and I've had uh and also the software will will tell you if you're making an illegal move so I've had people like lose track and then you
• 37:00 - 37:30 see them just clicking frenetically trying to figure out what the position was like there was one guy whom I played like he thought his Rook was on a certain file and if it was on that file he would be able to save a draw so I think he tried every single Rook move on that file hoping that the Rook was there uh but like obviously I knew that that it that it wasn't um but yeah um overall I feel like honestly
• 37:30 - 38:00 like blindfold chess is is a bit of a party trick in the sense that for the very top players it's not that hard but obviously for non like serious chess players it seems um it seems incredibly um uh incredibly hard but I I I'm I'm I'm sure that for instance like solving Ruby's cube is really really easy for those who who know how to do it quickly right but it's still looks incredibly impressive for for Outsiders have you
• 38:00 - 38:30 seen they used a computer with AI to do a Rubik's Cube in less than a second no I didn't see that wow yeah see if you can find it Jamie it's crazy it just goes it just spins it I've never figured that [ __ ] out that's crazy it's a there's a a sequence of moves if you follow a sequence of moves you can actually get it to do it automatically yeah someone explained it to me once and they did it and I was like what I don't remember what it was cuz I don't give a [ __ ] yeah it was just like eight eight times this way eight times that way eight times this then you just keep doing it and then eventually
• 38:30 - 39:00 it'll be all flattened out at a certain point in time wow yeah but this computer does it like you do Rubik's Cube too no no no no I I'm talking out of my ass like I I think the world record is only like 3 seconds or something like it's it's something absolutely insane um imagine the time you could have exp building a business raising a family you're the [ __ ] world record all the same color yeah green red so
• 39:00 - 39:30 dumb yeah well we we all have to spend our time watch this watch this computer do it wow how crazy is that ready go yeah less than a second wow that crazy show it again in real time so give up kids give up give up the
• 39:30 - 40:00 computer figured it out that's that's a dumb game but do you play other games as well no not that not that much um my parents sort of brainwashed me when when I was young into thinking that computer games are no fun and really yeah yeah yeah um but you're a grown man now you've realized that's a lie yeah yeah I I have but it's still I can see you Call of Duty [ __ ] people headphones on the thing is
• 40:00 - 40:30 like um the thing is like I actually got a um I I got a PlayStation recently uh but like my my wife is playing GTA and all of these FPS games and I'm like playing some you know chill FIFA or something so but but the thing about that is that um uh I didn't really spend that much time on those those things when I was I was little um which I think was a good thing like I was doing I was doing some sports and I was doing a lot of lot of Chess not so much school but I
• 40:30 - 41:00 I I kind of found time for for um everything else and I think um I think it was an important part of my chess education as well that I think some of the kids today are are missing that I actually learned chess on a physical board uh I was able to practice from a fairly young age playing online but I wasn't allowed to use the computer for more than couple of hours a week right so I had to spend them really well
• 41:00 - 41:30 playing chess otherwise I would just sit there with with my board with my books and you know try and um figure things out yeah the the thing about video games is the narrative was always video games are a huge waste of time and if you do it you're not going to get anywhere in life the problem with that is now people make a lot of money playing video games and they've also shown that there's some there's some benefits video games that leak over into other things like for instance they found out that surgeons
• 41:30 - 42:00 who play video games regularly make what is it like 25% less errors it 37% 37% less errors that's a like I would feel like if there was a factor in medical school and they said well if you do not uh do this you will make 37% more mistakes they would force you to engage in that whatever it is it's like whatever whatever particular discipline that was like if you want to be a surgeon you must do this I would say if you want to be a surgeon you should
• 42:00 - 42:30 [ __ ] play video games because these people are 37% less likely to screw up an operation that's why I'm not a surgeon but I'm saying it's like video games are not necessarily a waste of time and they've also shown there's cognitive benefits that can be uh gotten from playing video games on a regular basis things that would which does make sense but it just it seems like a frivolous Pursuit whereas chess is like
• 42:30 - 43:00 a noble and very respected Pursuit I I'm glad you say that like we've we've offic that that is what chess has though that it it is very respected among the general population and it does have that different standings from from another a lot of other games it's like I'm not here to [ __ ] on video games for sure like I I know like like you do that there there are studies that show that it's that can be be helpful I think with with anything um if you're obsess over
• 43:00 - 43:30 something the only thing you will become good at is that particular thing like I have with um with uh with chess I just think for me specifically um for me specifically it was probably a um a good thing that that made me just sit and focus on on chess rather than um um rather than do all sorts of um other things yeah oh most certainly because video games are very very addictive I had to stop playing video games we used to have a whole
• 43:30 - 44:00 local area network at our old Studio we'd all play quake and it was a real problem like I was just I just wanted to end the podcast so I could go play quake and then we play for hours and eventually got to a point where I was like okay I got to quit again just cold turkey never again leave it alone because they're just too fun and if you have other things you have obligations like chess like you're an actual professional chess player Call of Duty or whatever you're playing Quake it's gonna eat your
• 44:00 - 44:30 time I remember like when when I first moved out um you know I was technically a chess professional but I didn't have a lot of time to um yeah um I had a lot of time to kill when I when I was home so and I got myself a PlayStation played a ton of FIFA back then and there was there was a GameStop near near me that like they they made a lot of money of me just buying new controllers all the time because I would throw them into to to the wall but I I I I have that same
• 44:30 - 45:00 personality that I become become obsessed with things and then I yeah same I just have to quit cold turkey that's the only way that that works yeah I I think I mean this is why I've avoided Golf and like Tony's big on Golf and so's Jamie it's like I see what it is I'm sure I would love it but I don't have that time the time during the day well I can tell you that I always thought well I I wouldn't say that but I
• 45:00 - 45:30 always thought that I would get into golf later in life and then I decided more or less a year ago that I was going to start and now I am obsessed and it's all I want to do so I can I can I can 100% I can 100% relate but my wife knows that I'm so happy when I come back from golf that it's like better if I get to do it uh quite often yeah even just you fake being happy so you can keep doing it no no no no like yeah they say that's
• 45:30 - 46:00 ruining Canelo Alvarez you know there's been a lot of criticism in the boxing world and particularly in like you know some of his promoters and things along those lines where they've criticized his his he's obsessive he plays every day even when he's in Camp yeah it's a tricky thing if they do that with him and I obviously see them do it with Trump but they're to you have to golf to understand what golfing does to you it appears from the outside that people are
• 46:00 - 46:30 drinking and smoking pot and having a good old time out there and giggling around farting around with their friends but the touch grass meditative element it truly is like he was saying like I'm in such a crazy good mood after golf everybody at the comedy club can notice it like it's like an upper it gives you a massive burst of energy so like the the what am I thinking of the uh you know
• 46:30 - 47:00 just the bad reputation that golf has like I would want my president golfing a couple times a week knowing the effects that it gives you a much clearer mind a big burst of energy you would think it would be exhausting walking around the woods or grass for 4 hours but for some reason it's totally the opposite it's it's whether it's the Sun the grass the this the that the differential going from a powerful thing to a mid-range thing to the delicate touch and accuracy
• 47:00 - 47:30 of putting these repetitive things for some reason it's a mind clearer and kind of an energy Giver whereas video games and other things make you depressed I don't you know it's almost impossible to be down or depressed after golfing well it's it's certainly a stimulating game right cuz you it's hand ey coordination calculation you know managing the the lay of the land the way the roles of the hills are yeah and all
• 47:30 - 48:00 those factors I think like this is something that I think people genuinely need in life yeah and I think it's one of the reasons why people respect chess so much is because they know how difficult it is and they know that all this is going on and that they see you two just staring at the board looking at these pieces and and calculating this insane number of possibilities that could emit from each individ idual move it's like that stimulation when when someone gets good
• 48:00 - 48:30 at a game I think it's very valuable for you and I think that can apply to all sorts of things in life so I agree with you I would want the president to play golf too I'd want him to find something whatever it is find a thing that you can Excel out other than just being the president yeah yeah even if it was Call of Duty if that would be wild I wouldn't want that the president going [ __ ] yeah we had that it was George W bush and there was no video game system oh it's dark yeah it is dark well
• 48:30 - 49:00 I mean they literally use PlayStation [ __ ] controllers when they were using drones I don't know if they still do it now I think now they have more sophisticated setups but that one of the reasons why they were using them is because so many people were accustomed to those you get kids that have been playing you know Madden 10 hours a day for 15 [ __ ] years and then you give them the same controller and they're like oh yeah I can [ __ ] drop some bombs on people like not problem at all that's that's horrible it's dark yeah
• 49:00 - 49:30 and all of a sudden like these kills that you have in a video game like you you think of it in the same way like it well it really haunts those people apparently there's a very specific type of PTSD that drone operators get it's it's because they see the people sometimes for days in advance so they're doing surveillance they're waiting for the moment when they get the green light they see these people they see them with their families they're watching them from above and then and then they drop the bombs on them and then they cease to exist and this is happening on
• 49:30 - 50:00 completely the other side of the world yeah they just press X on the controller yeah but if you want to get good at that you should probably play play video games it's a job for everybody out there Magnus like I'm I'm I'm also trying to think like could you get surgeons to be thrown off Raiders probably doesn't work that way no probably doesn't work that well I best surgeons just whatever hand eye coordination that they have is probably so intricate that they could probably excel at anything they'd probably get good at video games like a
• 50:00 - 50:30 very good surgeon who's never played video games probably get really good at video games really quickly because the the communication between your hands there's also probably a tricky part of that stat where the younger people or the ones playing the video games that probably wouldn't slip up with their hands as easily as an older surgeon that has never played video games right yes right right right yeah that's a good point it's it's you know it's interesting that chess is uniquely the
• 50:30 - 51:00 game that's respected like probably out of all even if you play golf people can think oh you're a [ __ ] up you say you play chess like oh that must be an intelligent man it's probably the most uniquely rewarded game in terms of the the way the people respect it in society yeah it we're very lucky that it has this unique position whether that's deserved um I I don't know but there's just something about the fact that it's
• 51:00 - 51:30 you know it's a very very simple game um but it's it's still so infinitely uh difficult the thing now the thing now though is that we're trying to actually make it a bit more more difficult for uh a classical form of of Chess um because now computers are so strong preparation has gone so far that the thought of like sitting down at the board and just thinking on your own
• 51:30 - 52:00 from the very get-go it's not it's not there anymore anybody who's really good at chess like they um anybody can can learn the best openings like very quickly even if you go like 10 20 years ago um you could play um you could play for instance in the chess Olympia was which is the which is the the biggest team like Nation tournament world and you could play against the the best player from from
• 52:00 - 52:30 let's say Colombia and you know you would know that they have a certain skills but they might not have the same set of openings right now all of these like they're kids everywhere um and they just like they know their stuff so well so now we're like testing out new formats uh one that we call freestyle which is basically there are 960 starting possible starting positions if you Shuffle the pieces on the first Rank
• 52:30 - 53:00 and basically like you start out you just draw the position 10 minutes before the game no preparation whatsoever and you basically start with like in gaming a new map every single game um so that's sort of for the traditionalists that's not like the same the same game so like there are some people who don't like it but for the professionals it's an it's a chance like to um to
• 53:00 - 53:30 use um to to use their their skills because otherwise chess is moving like it's become becoming faster like chess used to be used to be an art science everything with the way things are now it's it's just very fast and it's all game Sports and so on like I feel like with with thinking from the very first move you're bringing some of the other factors um back as well I what I think it's really unique about today is that
• 53:30 - 54:00 kids today who are coming up are not just studying from books and from coaching but you can watch so many great games instantaneously anytime you want this is what's so unique about today and I think it applies to all sports I think it applies to all games I think it applies to all I think it applies to standup comedy as well I think it's one of the reasons why the younger guys are so good it's like you get to see very high level stuff which gets into your mind that this is how to play at a very
• 54:00 - 54:30 early age and you can be obsessed and just absorb so much more yeah and and you see there are such different approaches as well even even with uh with the kids like I had a training camp uh a few years ago with with a kid called alza fuia from uh he plays for France now but he's from Iran originally I think he was about 14 then and my my chess coach has had like recommended that we um that we bring him in because he said that this is the most talented
• 54:30 - 55:00 kid out there so we have this camp where typically everybody has their their laptop and there's a chessboard in the Middle where you sort of um and and you sort of look at your own thing and then some things together on the board and you you throw out ideas mostly for for openings but also sometimes other little exercises and so on and this kid he would have his have his life top where he would um where he would analyze a
• 55:00 - 55:30 certain position and then he would play games like for money on that same site at the same time so that he could buy Cloud um Cloud engine times because like the very best engines um they're they're stronger like if they're in the the cloud then from your own uh than from your own uh laptop generally so you would buy time for for that by playing games like one minute games on that server he would play five minute games
• 55:30 - 56:00 on another server and he would analyze with us on the board and he was still like following everything like he had no problems what's so whatever just being there so like it's just um yeah that's that's one way of doing it like he basically became one of the best players in the world by just constantly playing chess all the time and mostly like really quick games and then you have the current classical world champion from
• 56:00 - 56:30 from India gues like he doesn't play casual games at all he just studies his ass off all the time um and he's also like he's not good at at at rabbit chess he's not good at Blitz he's not good at other other forms uh but he has he has made all his study studies about uh classical chess um he didn't even own like chess software on his computer before he was like 13 wow and he was a
• 56:30 - 57:00 Grandmaster wow at that time um but it's it's interesting to see that there are such different ways um to develop even even these days I think I just think it's fascinating human beings capacity to excel at things and that you really only know when someone pushes it a little a little bit further like this guy playing these all these games simultaneously you know what I mean it's
• 57:00 - 57:30 like when you when if everybody's doing it one way if everybody's only playing you know a few games a day and hanging out like you'll probably all stay at the same level but if you got one [ __ ] psychopath in the group that's online and is playing and is reading books and is that guy is going to pass everybody and then everybody else realizes like oh that's possible you I could have gotten as good as him I better really bear down yeah because you you could also see that in these guys playing style the guy who
• 57:30 - 58:00 has been playing like constantly all the time from when he was little he has fantastic instincts especially with with little time he just knows where the pieces go and like he's the only one of the kids who has that kind of feeling um the Indian guy on the other hand from the way he studies he's like during games like he's meticulous he calculates like sees every position as a problem he has to solve more than oh what does my
• 58:00 - 58:30 intuition tell me oh I'll do I'll do this uh it's like for him it's more well this is possible this is possible let me like try and uh see this all all the way all the way through so it's just yeah it's just very very different and um they they they call it like the tortoise and the hair some uh sometimes and then uh in certain situations the tortoise will win and other situations the the hair will win right so in so there's
• 58:30 - 59:00 different types of tournaments and there's some tournaments that have no time limit for for moves oh there's always a time there's always a time limit what's the traditional time limit uh what it used to be in in chess was um you'd have two hours for 40 moves then you would have an hour for the next 20 moves and then half an hour for the rest of the game so a maximum 7 hours um and uh that form is still is still
• 59:00 - 59:30 being played uh and then you have faster forms of Chess which is Blitz chess which is usually five or or three minutes and Rapid chess uh which is somewhere from from 10 to uh to to 30 uh minutes yeah did you ever before you were known did you ever go to Washington Square Park and play those Hustlers uh no I actually went there in um 20 uh 10 but I think I think some people recognize me back then as well I
• 59:30 - 60:00 think it's a bit of a myth though um how uh how good they are like they're they're they're like okay but they're not like your level no they're not grandmas level there was one guy though I don't remember I don't remember what was um uh what's the name of like it's up by um you know Columbia University there's a park up there where they're playing chess as well there I played against the guy uh who played like a very strange opening as white like he put like just a
• 60:00 - 60:30 couple of Pawns one square forward and then he started developing his pieces very slowly so F at first I thought this guy has no idea what he's doing but then it turned out like he actually had a system so after like 10 15 moves I was in a lot of trouble uh and then and then like the game became super concrete and tactical and and and I and I won um um but it yeah it struck me that this guy
• 60:30 - 61:00 like had it just I think he just played in a park all his life so he had developed a certain system W that was actually like kind of effective if you don't know what you're doing uh against it so that was that was kind of kind of interesting I'm like he was fairly old so I'm sure he'd played chess his whole life without ever learning any kind of opening Theory or or something like that he just had yeah he was doing his own thing fascinating did can you ever learn something from people that have an unorthodox approach like that oh yeah
• 61:00 - 61:30 for sure um it's it's happened several times um there was um there was like my dad used to play a ton of Chess at home like he used to have a home office and then certain times he'd appear to be um focused on his in his work but I knew like a certain look in his eye which told me that he was actually playing chess so I would go over and and watch he like I go way and then at some point where I was already a lot better than him um he played a certain opening as as
• 61:30 - 62:00 white and I told him like what what is this opening like where did you learn this and he said well you taught me the very same opening but with the black pieces so I thought I was going to play it as white like with with um one Temple more right because you're playing you're moving first I was like I like I never like I'm one of the best players in the world and I never thought of that so I actually took up that line and I used it
• 62:00 - 62:30 I used it with success against some of the best players in the world wow so I've like I've I don't know if that variation has a name like I've seen some other players play it afterwards as well uh but I just call it the um the Henry Carlson variation that's really interesting your dad must be pretty proud of that he he is very proud it's funny though that my my my dad and my my sisters my two of my
• 62:30 - 63:00 sisters they they played a bit of competitive U chess as well um I think at some point in time like I they wanted to learn a couple of openings so I taught them a couple of openings and I think all of them just never played anything anything else basically so they they certainly didn't have the same kind of passion to um to study but I'm glad I was able to um to push them into to some some decent Lin very how do you decide what opening to
• 63:00 - 63:30 choose um and do you ever decide an opening and go [ __ ] I shouldn't have done that one yeah yeah sometimes honestly uh sometimes I I don't know what to do so I just randomize because I think um at a certain time like you might think that against this opponent you should play a little bit of more of an aggressive opening but then maybe I feel
• 63:30 - 64:00 good about my tournament standing so I don't want to mess that up so it's easy to go for a safer approach when like the optimal approach would be a bit more aggressive and then like if you randomize it then you will occasionally go for the for the more aggressive approach so that's what I sometimes do is just I randomize it and then I just sort of accept the the outcome and it makes me more um more unpredictable it makes me harder to um to prepare against um as well so that's what I sometimes do
• 64:00 - 64:30 it's not like it's not going to be out there but it's going to be between like two or three options that I I think are roughly equivalent they're just sty stylistically different so when you say randomize like how many openings do you have that you pursue on a regular basis oh it's it's hard to that's hard to say um probably probably with whes I have like uh five or six options that I can that I can go to but only like two or
• 64:30 - 65:00 three that I I feel really good about and I think similarly um similarly with black so and then when you randomize you just go in your head and one of them stands out for you and you say okay this is no I just like have an app on my phone and just roll the dice yeah yeah oh wow wow wow and I I think H honestly a lot of people could could benefit from that because you you
• 65:00 - 65:30 agonize over these minute decisions like you spend a lot of mental energy before a certain game agonizing over what opening you're going to play and if you know that you you're going to make a decent choice but you leave all the agonizing to to like there's nothing because it's it's left to to chance it makes it makes it a lot a lot easier that makes sense when now you were saying mental energy is do you you were talking about the spicy Chinese food incident but do you uh normally have a
• 65:30 - 66:00 method of like when you eat vitamins you take is there certain things that you do to optimize your your your Clarity yeah like if if I'm playing if I'm playing an early early afternoon game for instance like starting at 1 I I Tred to eat like one big meal uh before that we just generally uh like a big omelette with some some kind of salad and um but you eat pretty clean before a
• 66:00 - 66:30 big yeah I usually I usually do um sometimes like after games like I will eat something like even some desserts and so on uh but before the games I I try and keep it keep it fairly fairly clean and I actually learned that when I was when I was little like sometimes like my parents they were generally quite strict about sweets and so on but sometimes I would eat sweets during tournament then you know my um my blood
• 66:30 - 67:00 sugar would drop like crazy and I would start making making mistakes uh and so that's something that I I learned quite quickly that I shouldn't do do you ever mess around with vitamins or neut Tropics or anything like that things that nutrients that help memory no I I think um I I think it's a little bit about the way that I was was raised like i' never take medicine unless I I kind of have to I don't really take supplements or or um
• 67:00 - 67:30 or or anything like that so um I probably I I probably should uh like it's it's not a bad idea um like my wife is half American like she's completely different like she takes five kinds of vitamins every every single day she's very meticulous about it but yeah I don't know I've never um get her to make you up some little packets yeah maybe I think it'll probably have an impact on you I mean it's extraordinary if you
• 67:30 - 68:00 think about how good you are without it like any little thing that could give you a very slight Edge and I think that vitamins for sure give you a slight Edge particularly in um neut Tropics there's a bunch of different vitamins that have been shown through clinical trials to improve cognitive performance you know um theanine there's U acetylcholine a bunch of different things that enhance memory that are essentially just nutrients what's the new thing that people are are doing like uh keratin or
• 68:00 - 68:30 something like that ketamine no no no not ketamine but uh no no no it's not ketamine um creatine creatine creatine creatine yes creatine is was a bodybuilding supplement that was almost akin to steroids in the 1990s people you think it was cheating and then they realize well it's just a component of food but uh one of the things that creatine does that's very extraordinary is um it aids in performance when you're sleep deprived so if you ever find
• 68:30 - 69:00 yourself sleep deprived and you have to do something where you have to use your mind creatine is a fantastic supplement for that well I mean I woke up today and like I think my my watch set was that my sleep was like I got 15 like I slept for 5 hours but I got 15 minutes of R sleep like it was really really bad so that's what I could have I could I could have used that um CU I was playing a earlier today so I could I could have used that but yeah creatine is something that
• 69:00 - 69:30 everybody should take men women children everybody should take creatine it's a really good supplement super safe and uh it does it aids in strength and Muscle Recovery and stuff like that but it also has a lot of cognitive benefits just generally just like a very good safe supplement to take what does it say here Jan cognitive function studies suggest that creatine supplementation May improve cognitive function including memory attention and reasoning it may increase brain energy levels by boosting endine triphosphate production ATP which is essential for brain function creatine
• 69:30 - 70:00 has antioxidant and anti-inflammatory properties that may protect brain cells from damage caused by oxidative stress and neurotoxins may help R so it's it does a lot of different things if you Google it there's a ton of different benefits I take it in gummy form I take creatine gummies every day they're delicious it's easy I just pop a bunch of 5 milligrams I don't know we have any of those Tri creates here I don't think so yeah I think I have them out there um but they're great you know it's easy I put a bag in my car take them all the
• 70:00 - 70:30 time I've I've noticed a difference I just think with a guy like you well your brain is everything but you're you're kicking ass so like why listen to me no no eat cheeseburgers and [ __ ] around see what happens no but it it it is the thing though that on certain days I S I sort of just accept that you know my brain is not going to work as good work as good and it's it's it's frustrating especially if you got a if you got a big game and you know that you're starting down to zero because your brain is not working the way it's supposed to be yeah
• 70:30 - 71:00 I feel that with podcasting all the time and the the real danger is if I do that if my brain's not on Full Tilt and I'm talking to a scientist and I'm like oh like we have to talk about quantum physics like this I I have to like have good questions have to be able to follow what you're saying because it's so esoteric you know it's weird that the brain just doesn't always work exactly how you want it to and honestly chess is one of the worst things to do sleep deprived because I think creativ
• 71:00 - 71:30 creativity usually uh is enhanced when you're when you're not feeling well when you're when you're sleep deprived but that's generally not what you need in chess like you need to minimize mistakes you need precision and all of all of my intuition all of that is just so much worse when I'm not feeling uh not feeling on top of uh on top of my game so do you have a specific thing you do when you're feeling not on top of your game do you like double check things in your mind do you have a a process you
• 71:30 - 72:00 you follow I just try to play like a simpler game where where it's not as where it's not as complicated really uh and when you're feeling good then you go for it no honestly when when I feel like good I don't think about these things it's just a state of it's just a state of flow uh where I know I know how much risk to take like I I I I just yeah um so what what is the mindset like if you're in a world championship game
• 72:00 - 72:30 and you it's down to these like what what is the state of mind like when you're in the middle of it honestly when I'm at my best I'm just like pure laser focused and um I'm just calm and not thinking about anything other than just in the moment just in the moment yeah just in the the work is already done you already know the game so now it's just reacting and moving and calculating yeah I mean I I had um I had
• 72:30 - 73:00 a game and 20 last classical World Championship I played in 2021 where um the first five games were drawn honestly like I could have probably been down at that point as well sixth game was a super super long game um almost eight hours and I think for the last hour and a half two hours I was pretty short on time but I remember like I was just so focused and so calm and
• 73:00 - 73:30 afterwards I was just like yeah I could have kept going forever like I was just there um and it was exactly what I needed I ended up grinding out grinding out win and and in in those classical games like once you get a lead like that is so big because it's so hard to win actually win games at that that level with that level of preparation um so that was that was really big but yeah that's that I've only I I've only had I
• 73:30 - 74:00 feel like a few days where I feel like I'm just like completely in the moment usually it's a bit more messy than that but like when it happens is just um yeah the best feeling that's amazing that it's only been a few days where you've been fully in the moment I'm rarely happy after I play I'm I'm I'm happier now like I'm on like my standards for myself like are a little bit lower have gone down a little bit the older I've gotten um because I
• 74:00 - 74:30 sort of accept that I don't I don't have my brain is not as fast as it used to be so I'm going to have occasional let Downs so my top level is like I think as good as it's ever been or at least very very close to um but like the average level is it's just it's just too hard when your brain is not that fast anymore
• 74:30 - 75:00 uh but but but yeah generally I um I'm I'm always thinking well yeah I could have always done something better like you always miss some things but I always feel like yeah there are avoidable mistakes that I'm I'm still making so this as you've gotten older this lowering expectations is that a recognition of the fact that being hard on your yourself over minute details doesn't benefit you and that you've just
• 75:00 - 75:30 had a more healthy approach yeah I think so um and it just makes everything a bit bit easier um also honestly like the randomizing opening choices has made has made things easier as um as well uh everything just to just sort of yeah lower the pressure a bit have you ever consulted a mental coach or uh you know someone who uh works with people on mindsets to try to capture what is
• 75:30 - 76:00 happening when you are in that complete total Flow State of laser focusness and try to recreate that because there's a bunch of different mind coaches that will tell you for a bunch of different Pursuits that what you have to do is when you get to that state whatever that state is recognize that you're there and then try to get a map of the territory and try to
• 76:00 - 76:30 will yourself back into that thing but then there's another school of thought that says no it just has to happen organically and that you just have you just need to be obsessed and focused and take care of yourself and meditate and just when it comes it's going to come but it just you have to accept that it's a gift and it's just not always going to be there yeah I'm definitely the in the lad Camp um I've talked to people who have suggested mental coaches like plenty of plenty of
• 76:30 - 77:00 times um both in in the past and and more recently as well I've just like always been worried that somebody's going to mess something up in in in my head paralysis by analysis yeah that that that's really that's really what it is for me so I feel at some point I'm I'm just like more or less content with the way things things are that most days that I'm playing I'm going to be fairly good on some days I'm going to be at my very
• 77:00 - 77:30 best that other days I'm going to be very far from from my best and it's it's sort of yeah it's sort of the the way it is I I I'm much definitely much more open to doing things to prevent me from having th those very worst days because that those are the ones that really um that really hurt you especially now that we're playing a of faster tournaments uh where there AR where there are um Knockouts where basically like if you
• 77:30 - 78:00 have one bad day you're you're out and it doesn't matter um like back in the days with classical tournaments like you could you could have a really bad day uh but then you can always bounce back but nowadays it's not it's not that easy do you ever try to map out what are the factors that lead you to hit that state that that flow state do you ever try to think about your day like what did I do what did I eat how how did I sleep did I avoid toxic people around me did I stay offline like what did I do that allowed me to get to that spot um yeah I mean
• 78:00 - 78:30 doing everything sort of right before the game definitely helps like getting um getting getting good good sleep like reading reading a book instead of being on on some sort of device before I go to go to sleep um then just focusing as little as possible on on chess before um before the game definitely really little as possible yeah um CU you want it to be fresh in your mind you want it to be in something exciting yeah I just I just
• 78:30 - 79:00 want to have like two or three ideas of what I'm what I'm going to play and not like I I just don't want to like use Mental energy that I could have used on the game before right right so um I think one of my better tournaments that I played um it's I used to play every year at this um seaside resort in in the Netherlands and it's in the
• 79:00 - 79:30 middle of winter so it's not very Resort likee it's just um rainy and windy and there's basically nothing there except this big tournament that's been there for for 80 years and it's for three weeks every every January so for me there's not there's not a lot to do uh so what I would do like every day is I'd um I'd um I'd wake up I'd go for a walk um and then I would watch
• 79:30 - 80:00 like uh 30 to 45 minutes of um NBA highlights from the day before look at chess for for 15 minutes whatever my coach has sent me of preparation that we discussed the day before um eat and then and then go play and um that worked really really well it's just keeping it as simple as possible honestly so get inspired a little bit little bit of energy from
• 80:00 - 80:30 watching NBA highlights right yeah just a tiny amount of information from the coach just like get your brain locked in but not too much energy don't Focus too much on it yeah I a lot of people like they do they will spend three four hours preparing on a game on that very day uh and it like it can be beneficial like if your opponent goes into specifically the lines that you prepared and and so on but overall I
• 80:30 - 81:00 think um yeah having having having a fresh mind is is so important um and I'm also like even if i' haven't had the perfect preparation like I'm really good at just blocking everything out forgetting everything that's happened and just focusing there and then uh but it's still not as good of course as just being um in in in a good State of Mind do you ever get to the point where you feel burnout or you want to just take
• 81:00 - 81:30 days off a week off and not think about Chess not touch a chess board or is it just constantly playing in the background no matter what you do but I I really love it so why take time yeah why it take no no no I'm I'm fine with taking uh breaks from from tournaments and so on um but having like at least days several days in a row without like looking at a chess
• 81:30 - 82:00 game um or I mean I don't have to play every day but not having a having a yeah not looking at anything like not reading some chest stuff or like yeah I mean it's it's my favorite hobby so I I don't um yeah I I I don't see why I would want to do that yeah that's probably why you're one of the best of all time if not the best I mean that's a beautiful approach right if you can find a thing that you love so much that even though you do it all the time and you've done it since you were a child you're still obsessing and loving it yeah I I I do
• 82:00 - 82:30 have those moments where I just I just take a breath and I'm and think about how lucky that I am and there are just moments where I just sort of I wouldn't say ReDiscover my love for the game but where I just think like I'm obsessed with this game and I'm completely uh fine with that well well that's a beautiful way to live your life if people can find a thing like that in their life that really is the key to an
• 82:30 - 83:00 enjoyable life if the thing that you do all the time you're obsessed with now we talk about it all the time at our Comedy Club we're we're all in the green room we're like we are so lucky that this is actually what we do for a job and pretty much everybody who's good at it is obsessed with it and they think about it all the time it's kind of the only way but I need time off sometimes because I think that's different it's always different ideas and different things you're working on sometimes you need time just to refresh your perspective
• 83:00 - 83:30 but with a game like chess I guess you don't really need time off no I think again it's it's different from from for different people but I don't know I I don't feel I don't feel like it it it takes away energy it just gives me joy and and energy when when I when I do that like I will just on on a certain day I will just log into chess.com and and observe random people playing that
• 83:30 - 84:00 is something I can do and be very happy about it um yeah it's just the way I well you're just very fortunate you found a thing that you really locked into that's uh that that perspective is very important for people to recognize like the perspective of gratitude and of of appreciation that you're so fortunate to have found something people go their whole lives and never find a thing that they're truly absolutely passionate about and for a guy like you I mean it's
• 84:00 - 84:30 it's a shiny example for people I think I think that's one of the things that I enjoy the most about super high performers is that they provide an insane amount of inspiration to other people when someone sees you play chess at the highest level or sees you know Michael Jordan play basketball or whatever it is you get this feeling of what human beings can do and it elevates your own expectations of yourself and of people around you yeah I I think um I
• 84:30 - 85:00 I've thought about it many times like what am I actually like doing with my life that's that's useful to other people and it always comes comes back to to that every time that I hear that people um people are inspired by by what I do maybe it helped them through like um a difficult time to watch to watch my games and to get into ReDiscover or find the the love for the game that's really um that's really nice and again in the process I'm just doing doing what I what
• 85:00 - 85:30 I love right and that's that's really what people want to want to see from me is just competing and and doing well at CH so that's that's also what I'm um giving as as often as um possible well that's what people want out of life is something that they love that they do that they're very good at and they get recognized for for it and when a a person like you does it and does it publicly and it's inspiring it's a great
• 85:30 - 86:00 gift for other people I mean it truly is who's been um like are there particular players that you really enjoy watching play and a particular styles that you enjoy uh I think my favorite probably player of all time is is sort of the young Kasparov be before before he became world champion the thing is like what I find fascinating about that is
• 86:00 - 86:30 that he played with a style um that was so unique and so Dynamic um that that I know that I could never replicate it it's just not the way that I I play um so that's something I I admire a lot usually I'm whatever I'm into like be it soccer or golf for basketball or whatever like I admire like what people do not necessarily like
• 86:30 - 87:00 it's about the people themselves um so that's the way it has been for me in in in chess as well um that I try to like learn from from people's games and and what they what they do and when I talk to them um and I've been very fortunate about about that being able to study with um with Gary back in the day uh and uh Anand who was the world champion for me um because it's it's only then when like when you when you study like you talk to them like you understand like
• 87:00 - 87:30 how good they really are and how much they they understand um for instance with Anna I had I had a training session um in 2008 where we had both played a tournament where um I'd done reasonably well and he had sort of towards the end he had mailed it in but he was preparing for the classical World Championship so we I I think I had two day days off and he was living outside Madrid and so I went to Madrid for a couple of days
• 87:30 - 88:00 because the other tournament was in the north of Spain then I I went to his house and as soon as like that training camp started it's like something just switched with him and he was he was just so focused we played a bunch of training games and from being this guy who seemed completely disinterested in this other tournament all of a sudden like he was crushing me like he had a massive plus score in our games and it felt like
• 88:00 - 88:30 everything we analyzed he was just he just had a much deeper understanding of the game it seemed like he was faster tactically and everything and it made me like appreciate like how good uh how good he actually um actually was yeah when you were playing someone like that and you're getting your ass kicked um does this inspire you an enact change in your game or does it does it not change
• 88:30 - 89:00 your game you just do the same game but more Focus yeah I think I think it's more of more of the latter um it was just a reality check for me because I thought at that point that I was um I was ranked I think third in the world I'd very briefly been ranked number one um already at that point like for for a week and I thought before that I thought I was maybe one of the best two three players in the world and it made me realize that I wasn't and that
• 89:00 - 89:30 maybe I was able to have better results than my actual level because of because of Youth energy and and optimism right and that made me just yeah it just made me realize that I have a lot lot to learn and that I should be I should be patient and not expect everything to to sort of um to sort of come that fast um because at that point I'd had a year of more or less constant rise I was yeah
• 89:30 - 90:00 it's just winning uh winning tournaments every time I would lose a game I was just believe that I could strike back immediately and um I I and I like I realized now that I was just I was delusional I thought I was a lot better than than what I was and that was probably why I was having so such good results cuz you're so confident because I was so confident uh but having like a little
• 90:00 - 90:30 bit of a reality check I think helped me later to actually um understand U the game a bit better but I still I I've still taken away that I think in in chess like the optimal State when you're playing a game is some somewhere between optimistic and delusionally optimistic because if you're realistic you're just never going to um uh to be opportunistic enough to to sort of
• 90:30 - 91:00 exploit your opponent's mistakes it's I think another factor is the way you analyze things that you were able to say I was a little delusional and even though I'm doing very well I got to trust in this process of growth and development and that it is a very very long process yeah exactly and like very soon after that I started working with uh with gar Kasparov as well and that made me realize that I know even less um and uh what can a guy
• 91:00 - 91:30 like Gary Kasparov tell you that makes you know that you know even less back then um it was really like my style has become a bit more Dynamic over time but back then I like I really really lacked understanding of more Dynamic positions in in chat like you can have um you can have like more
• 91:30 - 92:00 static or more Dynamic Pawn structures like if there are a lot of uh possible Pawn braks for for both sides and both kings are under attack then it's sort of more um more Dynamic and tactical or it could be more a more about gaining some minute positional advantages and that's sort of what I was excelling at the lad and working with him um it just improved sort of the the more Dynamic part of my game a lot and that helped me very much
• 92:00 - 92:30 um short term uh and also also it's helped me ladder because it it it improved my understanding of the game My Strength main strength is still more in the more static structures um but that works like made me so much more um more versatile and I still definitely um profit from that what what is a coach
• 92:30 - 93:00 for you today like what what benefit is a coach today uh a couple of things um the main benefit that I have from my chess coach is um opening work that's like the the low hanging fruit that's that's really what you know you can um you can get the most out of on on from from game to game um a couple of other
• 93:00 - 93:30 things like my my coach is is also um an old friend of mine um he's Danish so we can communicate in the same language uh and he's also just as obsessed with golf as as I am so that that every every time like we have like a chess training camp there's always also a lot of uh lot of golf being played so um um yeah those are a few things but chess wise it's it's mainly about the the the opening work and so it's essentially
• 93:30 - 94:00 he's obviously very good at chess as well but it's essentially bouncing things off of each other and going over positions yeah and then he's very good at using chess engines to um you know to get slightly different um different results than than maybe other others do do you occasionally or do you at all and analyze other people's games and break them down together not not really um when it comes
• 94:00 - 94:30 to analyzing other games like it's it's excuse me it's more useful for me to to look at what the engine is is uh is saying so like now because the engines are just smarter than yeah they are and I'm I'm good enough that I can interpret what the engine is is saying to like understand why a certain thing a certain thing happen happen so so it's still interesting to analyze together as as humans but we always want to double check what we're what we're saying with
• 94:30 - 95:00 um with the engines isn't it fascinating that that's that's a gigantic Factor now ever since deep blue right yeah so the thing about I I know like I don't know if you if you talk to Gary but he has this whole thing with um with deep I I I'm not sure if deep blue was actually uh better than than Gary but um it yeah it started it started the the downfall of of us humans when it when it comes to chess and it's
• 95:00 - 95:30 now been a long time where we just accepted that our computer overlords are are just a lot better and there are serious benefits um for for improving players for for kids like the engines help people improve a lot faster so that's that's a great thing uh additionally people watching Test games like one problem is that you cannot easily tell like it's not like one guy is being punched and the other guy is um
• 95:30 - 96:00 is punching like it takes some skill to uh to see what's going on but with the help of the engines like you could actually have a real time score all the time because it tells you who is who is winning and who who is not so be it becomes a lot easier to um um to to to follow as well because honestly like most people when they consume Sports they're mostly interested about who is going to win and who is going to lose so
• 96:00 - 96:30 now at least you can you can have that factor in chest that you can you can you can see that and um um there it's it's very interesting for me to read what people were writing about computer chess um 30 not not 30 but like 50 60 years ago and so when there was an actual discussion whether computers could ever be a master at chess and now it's um um it's very much settled of course well they have that same discussion about go
• 96:30 - 97:00 right well go is much much more complicated than than than chess so um but I I don't know what has happened since Alpha go um if if like the best Masters are a little still a little bit better or where the state is at I think go is better than everybody now the the computer is but I think a new factor is that the computer has devised creative
• 97:00 - 97:30 moves that were never used before that have now been implemented they're part of like General strategy which I think they thought was very shocking so see see you find anything is like kind of bluffing moves or I do not know because I don't understand go I was just reading an article about the extraordinary leaps that AI has taken and that one of the more shocking things was was that it was able to to beat the best players at go which they did they thought was like a long time coming yeah um I mean I I did watch I
• 97:30 - 98:00 watched the movie Alpha go and I mean how long ago was that that's like five no maybe like six seven years ago see in AI time that's like Stone Ages which is so crazy and I think like a year or two later there was Alpha zero in chess um so chess engines they were always like kind of built by humans and instructed by humans Alpha zero came along and uh which is a neural network that just you know learned chess on it on its
• 98:00 - 98:30 own and it became more or less as good or maybe slightly slightly worse than the best um traditional chess engines what's interesting is that the neural networks played chess lot a lot more like humans um they were much less concerned about material factors they were more uh about like positional play and long-term
• 98:30 - 99:00 thinking and so on uh because it was not based on brute force in the way that um um that traditional engines would and you would see funny like they have computer tournaments as well with with with the best engine in the world and you would you will still see like um Leela zero that's sort of the clone of alpha zero because they discont continue the alpha zero project after a while um it will make like Elementary tactical
• 99:00 - 99:30 blunders almost um that's crazy because it I don't know it doesn't have it just things about chest differently than traditional engines but it will also like do things that just confounds uh the very best chess engines in the world still so um that that's very interesting to to see and like all the best coaches and and players now now
• 99:30 - 100:00 when when you work with chess computers like you always have both like a neural net and a traditional chess engine running as well as some others who are now like hybrid who are who have uh who have a little bit of both um it's just fascinating that it would make blunders yeah well I don't know if it's something about its it's um it's it's search I I really I really don't I really don't know but it would also make
• 100:00 - 100:30 some fascinating decisions like uh when you promote a pawn like you usually promote to a queen um because that's almost always the best unless you sometimes want to Pro promote Knight specifically to uh to give a check or sometimes you know to avoid state but that's that's less frequent but then what um Leela and Alpha zero would sometimes do is that they would promote to a different piece because um if it's
• 100:30 - 101:00 a piece that's anyway going to be captured just to give your opponent like a slight chance of making a mistake by making another move oh uh which is something like human would never ever do uh but it's like it's really funny a little bit of a parallel to what's going on in go I think with this gamesmanship that is going on with um with um the new neural Nets so that's crazy that it would just trick you yeah it would would
• 101:00 - 101:30 try and trick it like it probably wouldn't trick a human because a human would be like that's weird okay I'll just take it whatever but another engine oh okay uh well I have another alternative that seems wow equivalent more or less maybe I'll go for maybe I'll go for that um wow it's it's it's very strange so what are the best programs that people play on um there are a few uh there's one
• 101:30 - 102:00 that was originally developed by neegan called stockfish that's still still considered um the best so I think like I think the best now is stockfish like stock hybrid that's part neural and part traditional engine and then I think do you have to be connected online to use that um yeah I mean most people use either um most people use remote engines like some kind of cloud service to have as much computing power as possible so the
• 102:00 - 102:30 kind of computing power that's on your phone like can you beat your phone at the highest level no no chance is that crazy no chance that's so crazy cuz deep blue wasn't it like as big as a room wasn't deep blue was a wasn't like a a stack of computers right but I'm sure it's still less powerful than your the computer on your phone is today right um no no I have no chance against against um against my phone there there was that's so crazy there there was
• 102:30 - 103:00 actually one time where I played uh corporate siml and there was this guy who said um I built a chess program in in my university class can I let that play against you again instead of myself and I was like yeah sure why not and I actually like beat it fairly handily uh because I played some kind of like anti computer chest where I just close up the position as much as possible and just let it has
• 103:00 - 103:30 have as few possibilities as possible to to out out calculate me so that it's a purely strategical game that doesn't work against very good engines but it can work against um against weaker ones but now um humans like we don't have any there there was a grandmas who played a match recently against Leela which is like the best neural network engine now uh they were playing classical chess and he started with a knight
• 103:30 - 104:00 more and they played a 10 10 game match and he won five and a half to four and a half wow which is crazy like it's a nightm like that's it should not be possible for any like if God was playing chess that shouldn't be you shouldn't be able to beat a Grandmaster in any game like that so the grandmas was still able to win I but yeah for me uh I rarely play against
• 104:00 - 104:30 engines at all because they just make me feel so stupid and and useless so I think about it more as an as a tool um more than more than U than anything else and often like when you play against them the moves that they make they are not necessarily relevant as to what a human would do in that in that situation because we just think we just
• 104:30 - 105:00 think differently do ever try to think like the computer um yeah well specifically the neural Nets have improved our understanding of the game immensely and the azero paper came out very late 2018 and actually I played a world championship match late 2018 as well against um an American iano Carana that was the best match I think that I've ever played we played um 12 draws
• 105:00 - 105:30 actually and then I won in a tie break but like the games were super high quality and and he was he was very evenly matched and then he was actually using Leela the alpha zero clone which we didn't have access to like we didn't even know that was the thing but the thing is like after Alpha zero came out in 201 late 2018 there was a period half a year maybe early 2019 where you could very clearly see which players have been using these new neural network networks or knew how to use them and which
• 105:30 - 106:00 players didn't and my coach he got into it very quickly and we got an advantage of basically everybody but that but that guy who had been using it during the match and it just made us understand the game a lot better uh there were as I said like a couple of things about long-term King safety pushing pawns on the side of the board was maybe the biggest takeaway that
• 106:00 - 106:30 often you would push pawns and not as an attacking tool which used to be the way that you would push a pawn like trying trying to break open your open your king what you would do is that you would have a little hook on the side of the board that you could use 20 or or 30 moves later um to make your king uh like like to make the opponent's king less safe then
• 106:30 - 107:00 and this is something that humans didn't really do and I still see some people like allowing these Pawn advances and and I don't like I wonder if they didn't didn't learn their lesson from from 2019 uh but it was very clear to see um at a certain time before everybody sort of caught up with a new information and that's also when I had maybe my best stretch of Chess ever because I just
• 107:00 - 107:30 understood these new things um better better than others it's almost counterintuitive that you wouldn't want to play the computer because the computer makes you look stupid because the idea in my mind would be like well you should play the best thing that you could possibly play and if that's a computer great if that's another human being then play the human being but I would imagine that playing something that makes you feel stupid would at the very least teach you something about the
• 107:30 - 108:00 game yeah it it does but at the same time like you know that these are usually things that humans cannot replicate and to be fair like the kids these days a lot of them play like a more concrete brand of of Chess that um is more similar to to um to engines than um than we have seen in the past because they've had so much exposure to it yeah
• 108:00 - 108:30 um like they're they're less dogmatic more Concrete in their their thinking but then I know that there are usually other things that are are lacking so I could I could sort of steer the game there as well so I don't know um I haven't I I I haven't found it particularly useful but but maybe I'm just yeah I don't want to is it partly because you just don't want to lose yeah of
• 108:30 - 109:00 course and it's also because as you said like chess is a very lonely game like when you lose it's because you're worse than your opponent and imagine losing to somebody who you know is like completely stupid which which like traditional chess computers are they're stupid they just have much more computing power than you do so losing over and over again to something that's so stupid like that's not a good feeling could you help explain to me what are the factors like
• 109:00 - 109:30 how can it what is it doing that you can't do in terms of calculating positions and moves and strategies well first of all it's infinitely faster um so there will there will be certain possibilities that I will rule out because of my intuition but it is able to calculate in a very short time that it's it's it's possible it will never make blunders like simple tactical
• 109:30 - 110:00 mistakes the neural networks sometimes do but traditionals engines traditional engines don't um and like I can I can keep like most of the moves that I make will be the same as they as they do um but they just like they don't make any real blunders at all like they may may make slight positional mistakes but honestly most of the time that I
• 110:00 - 110:30 think a an engine makes a positional mistake is because I don't understand it well enough so it's not really a mistake and it might look like one but it's longterm uh yeah it's just that my understanding is is not good enough and that that is useful then that does help me learn um what are the fact like what is the difference between the approach that the neural network takes versus a traditional engine like why why is one of them approaching the game differently because
• 110:30 - 111:00 one of them is constantly calculating uh based on sort of what what humans have taught them is like the value of like the value what is the value of a pawn what's the value of a knight and what is the value of um you know a far Advanced Pawn and and all of this like it calculates based on that neural network just you teach you just show it the rules of Chess and you know
• 111:00 - 111:30 play against your yourself a lot of times and get better and it's it just has a it has a different approach like what it does is just based on the game games that it's that it's played against itself right so it it's it's just it will have completely different different ideas um at times like imagine like in 2019 because of these neural networks like every
• 111:30 - 112:00 opening that have been played for hundred hundreds of years had to be rechecked by by coaches because there could be a difference in evaluation because there is this new neural network that just thingss in a completely different way wow so the these neural networks could go back and look at you know a classic game from like 1963 and say well you know what I would have [ __ ] that dude up because I would have done this that and the other thing
• 112:00 - 112:30 yeah exactly and um it just I think a lot of it was based on it just emphasizes different factors than traditional engines do and and that ultimately just leads to to uh to different uh to different results really um but it's um yeah it was extremely fascinating uh for a while but now it's
• 112:30 - 113:00 just led to really more parody uh in in the world world of Chess because yeah uh everybody just has access to um to that information it used to be a thing back in the time that PE some people would really be ahead of others not only in 2019 but also other times like they had um more computing power better better Cloud engines like they had started to use different engines and so on but
• 113:00 - 113:30 now now you could prepare for World Championship honestly and in two weeks and you'd be completely um with like just a regular um Regular like laptop that's connected to to cloud like it's it's very different and so much so much easier um today that is so fascinating that it's changed the game so much could you get a
• 113:30 - 114:00 a computer whether it is a traditional engine or whether it's a neural network could you get one to imitate a specific style like uh could you get one to say I want you to play like Gary Kasparov when he was younger so we actually did this back in back in the day um um we actually started a an app called play Magnus where you could play against myself against uh at different ages um and the um the uh the style it was based on the
• 114:00 - 114:30 guy who built stockfish built this engine as well so it was based like an old version of that but it would have my openings and try to emulate my style at certain certain ages obviously it wasn't it wasn't perfect but it was it it was it was a start um I think it's still difficult to build like a very good clone because essentially um at least with traditional
• 114:30 - 115:00 engines it's not possible maybe with AI you can you can get there but I I still think we fundamentally think differently about about Chess but yeah maybe well the interesting thing would be to take you because there's so many games that can be observed and put into the calculations and then I would I would really be fascinated to watch you play you you know I mean like what would that be like like you play you when you were 20 no so the thing about it is is that
• 115:00 - 115:30 you would H also what you would have to calibrate is that um it would make occasional like tactical blenders right and which those right they wouldn't want to and so what we would do what would happen in the play minus app is that it would make occasional blunders but those would be like a little bit too outrageous because it's like really hard to emulate the kinds of mistakes a human
• 115:30 - 116:00 would make by um by by the engines um so so so I I think that would probably still be like the most difficult part like the main issue in order to to make such a thing if the play Magnus thing was dialed in like 100% what would be do you think now would be the scariest age to play you does that question make sense yeah yeah are you better now than ever before no I I think as I think my I think my my
• 116:00 - 116:30 peak level is is close to the best because chess level or proficiency at anything it's about making use of the knowledge and making it into skill right uh and I definitely have more knowledge now than I've ever had but I think probably my the combin best combination I had of knowledge and and and energy and that translated the best into skill
• 116:30 - 117:00 was probably um in 2019 like first half of the year when I was when I was 28 and when I was more more like a young Kasparov than I'd ever been before uh very Dynamic um well what is the difference between you and T 19 you today a few things uh first it's I couldn't play the same openings as I played then because they
• 117:00 - 117:30 have been worked out to a point where they're basically um yeah they're just too analyzed and unplayable uh so that's that's one thing um apart from that I think I could do like my average level would probably be a little bit lower cuz I'm a little bit uh I'm a little bit older and uh and my brain is not quite as fast um but I I could do I think most of those things
• 117:30 - 118:00 what I don't think I could do is like the other sort of best version of me which was 2013 2014 uh when I was in um the best shape of of my life uh and I was just a Relentless beast at the board GR running down my my um opponents in very long end games never giving them any any rest fite whatsoever um like
• 118:00 - 118:30 purely skill-wise that was far from the best version uh sorry knowledge wise that was far from the best version of me um but I was just um yeah was just like the average level of my game definitely was was was higher than because I barely I rarely played really bad bad games at all because I was always I was always sort of on I had so much um so much um
• 118:30 - 119:00 willpower and energy well you're saying you were in the best shape of your life do you mean physically or do you mean physically physically yeah well see there's two factors you're talking about like physical like Fitness and Nutrition and exercise like that that these things you don't really take too much into consideration but they are obviously played a huge factor in the most successful period of your life uh yeah um it did but then cuz you're only 34
• 119:00 - 119:30 it's on Old no no no that's that that's true but I I I just I just feel it with these these kids like their brains are just so much faster than mine um I I mean I've felt it for years as well that no I'm I'm not I'm not I'm not old uh but I can I I can I can never be that level of pure like computing power but is that generally accepted with chess that there's a certain age where
• 119:30 - 120:00 it just drops off like who has won the World Championships at like the oldest age no well uh back in the days when you couldn't get information that quickly it took people a lot longer to um to develop and then it was considered that the best age was like late 30s early early 40s um obviously the drop off is not nearly as steep as it would be in in physical sports like that's that goes without saying but I think the peak
• 120:00 - 120:30 years are pretty much the same um for for most people like mid mid 20s to to to early uh to early 30s um I think I could still I I I could be I could still be very very close to to my Peak if I um focused fully on um on yeah all the the things that
• 120:30 - 121:00 that I can that I physicalness all of those things yeah and yet you don't do that I don't understand if you're so obsessed with chess and that seems to have a primary factor yeah that's it's it's a good thing like I feel like I do I generally like do the right thing things when I'm at tournaments but then in between I don't know I want to enjoy life as as as well um so um and like I'm generally obsessed
• 121:00 - 121:30 with with with chess but I'm not always obsessed with competing like certain times there will be certain days certain tournaments where I I know that I'm not going to be at my best and I I can I can sort of I can feel it and then I I'm not able to um to to u to take it as as seriously like I feel like I cannot I'm I'm not a Michael Jordan type who has to like go
• 121:30 - 122:00 all out in every in in every game I I used to but now I don't I I don't think I have that um that in me because my main motivation for playing chess is that I love to play um I don't have concrete goals of what I want to what I want to do um things I want to achieve like that sort of relaxed attitude that you have does that drive other people crazy that you're still able to beat them that would drive me [ __ ] nuts if
• 122:00 - 122:30 I was just fully obsessed and studying moves all day and just taking my vitamins and drinking only purified water and it's kind of a thing that you're known for right like a lot of other people are known to work all the time and you've kind of always at least a reputation played the player right isn't that what you're yeah and also the thing is like I was known for um um for like being fit and all of these things but now I think
• 122:30 - 123:00 there are a lot of other players who take these things a lot more seriously than I than I do I think the reason why I got that reputation is that I really like doing a lot of a lot of um like I did a lot of sports from I was little and I've always like kind of done them for for fun so I think I think that was the that was why like you don't see a lot of chess players playing uh playing soccer or tennis or or whatever um not
• 123:00 - 123:30 that I'm greater than any of those things but I was usually better than than a lot of other a lot of other chess players um I I yeah I guess I do have I don't know I don't know what a reputation I have for the others like I don't really care yeah there's not much much you could do about your reputation I'm just saying like in a in a in a game or a sport where it it's so computer involved and analyzed and there's Geniuses wearing suits and glasses and things you're kind of known as a
• 123:30 - 124:00 laidback intimidating force with a legacy do you have are there are there special things you do kind of like more like a poker player or anything to intimidate your opponents ever like I've seen you like show up late to Big tournaments where they're like waiting for you and stuff that's really cool that's a mimoto Musashi move no Samurai yeah yeah honestly like that's um me being late is down to a couple of things first I
• 124:00 - 124:30 hate waiting uh but also I just I'm terrible at planning so that's why I keep showing up L you're terrible at planning you know how funny that is it's literally what you do better than anybody like my planning is always based on everything going perfectly and like making a Time plan based on that and if something goes a little bit wrong then I'm going to be late and like something usually goes goes wrong or often enough
• 124:30 - 125:00 that it becomes becomes a thing um like um like as you talked about in in in chess like there's this video that a lot of people have talked about where I come there's there's um there's a Blitz game right and I that's 3 minutes and I come like 2 and a half minutes late because I've been I've been skiing in the mountains and there was a there was an accident on the road that that delayed me like half an hour like most
• 125:00 - 125:30 people would have planned for that had a little bit of buffer but I was like ah that was probably going to be fine certain suddenly there's an accident and I'm going to be late and I'm just running into the playing Hall in my in my sweatpants and not real even realizing that the game has started I just thought I was so late that I should be uh and I saw that everybody was there and then randomly turned out that I had half a minute left when when I got to the got to the board so that's kind of more how did you play the game did you
• 125:30 - 126:00 did you like have a different approach because you knew you only had 30 seconds no the the thing is like in there you have a two second increment per move so I'm not going to lose on time automatically I just had to play a little bit faster but it was it was okay but I as I said like I don't do those things to intimidate my opponents I'm just that would be such a mind [ __ ] guy shows up 2 and a half minutes late and still Stomps you yeah I don't think many people know about the the the the skiing delay or anything I think it was thought of is like a this I'm I'm a badass I'm
• 126:00 - 126:30 coming in late no honestly that was um like the world championships in chess like they were being held in the weirdest places so this was in in almati Kazakhstan which um this is like really uh during winter at least pretty polluted not very nice city and then just half an hour out of the city you have basically the Ops you have beautiful mountains that goes up to um
• 126:30 - 127:00 to 3 and a half thousand meters where it is just fantastic and you can you can like get um yeah from from the city it's like an hour and you're at the top of the mountain and having a beautiful ski vacation uh and I just like was so miserable being down in the city that I thought for this day like if I'm going to perform at all today like I need some fresh air I like I need to get out of here and so that's why I took the risk
• 127:00 - 127:30 and it was yeah definitely not um not to um to play to play mind games because I I Bobby Fisher said about Chess that I don't believe in Psychology I believe in good moves like I believe in like a little bit of both but I'm more in his school that I just um I think I'm going to make better moves than I don't need need um that all all those other things did you ever have an opponent that was doing something psychological that kind
• 127:30 - 128:00 of messed you up or threw you off like back when I was a wrestler in high school some guys wouldn't shower and it would be disgusting right was there anything like that in chest yeah that specific thing has has happened for sure uh I'm not sure if it's been if it's been a conscious Choice by my opponents I'm sure I've been guilting guilty of it as well um that that's true um I don't know really I I I think the only thing is not to bring
• 128:00 - 128:30 that up again but I I think when when I think that my my opponent might be cheating that's that's the only time that I'm really I'm really um off yeah it's just weird that you can cheat and do it for so long and yet still play in the best tournaments you would think that like like in the UFC like say if you get caught with wordss you get a long ban and you can't and if you get caught again you get an even longer ban and I think it's like a three strike thing if you caught a third time you're out of
• 128:30 - 129:00 the sport forever yeah no it's the the thing is that well you think harsher penalties would discourage people oh yeah for sure especially for for online because there's been this thinking that cheating over the board and over online is like very different but the thing is like once people um once people are cheating online then having these meteoric Rises over the board as well it makes you think hm that's a bit strange yeah um so
• 129:00 - 129:30 yeah there definitely needs to be um to be harsher P penalties one thing that chess.com used to do is that they they would let people sort of confess privately and then get their account back but now they're moving to more naming sh and shaming sort of sort of thing with the um and and banning people for longer which I think is yeah it's it's a lot it's a lot better um but a lot of is is a lot of it is about
• 129:30 - 130:00 incentives as well right like if you if you think that you can get get away with cheating um and there are monetary incentives to to cheat people are going to cheat as simple as that yeah well I guess that's just with every Pursuit there's always going to be people that look for shortcuts there's always going to be someone who looks to skirt around the difficult path no that's true but the thing is like there's so little you need
• 130:00 - 130:30 in in chess and and the the engines are so powerful um like if I started cheating you would never know the thing is like I would I I would get like a move here and there that's all I need or maybe imagine I'm playing a tournament I just find a system where I get somebody to Signal me when there's a critical Moment Like if a certain move if there's a moment where a certain move is much better than the others that's really all
• 130:30 - 131:00 I would need to to go from being the best to being like practically unbeatable right so it it really is a scary situations and situation there have been these cases of so many cases of people who are are acting suspiciously and who are making suspicious um spe having spe suspicious results based on the data but they're
• 131:00 - 131:30 very like if you're not cheating in a dumb way there rarely is going to be a Smoking Gun and without that Smoking Gun it's pretty hard to catch to catch people how would you eliminate that other than security would you have it so there's no audience members at all and have them only in a room together so that has been that has been done in world championships for instance like we're basically play we''re basically been playing like in a glass box that where you can see um
• 131:30 - 132:00 where you can see um where like you cannot see the audience and you cannot hear anything so it's a glass proof glass proof box um I kind of that's like you kind of don't want that you want there to be like I really like having chess more like an Esports setting where people can be as loud as they want it's just you have players sit down like boxers with headsets and but don't headsets open up the possibility of
• 132:00 - 132:30 cheating but then like the headsets would be all provided by the organizers so some sort of and you'd have to have like both we have had that in tournament like tournaments that you have to have white noise and some kind of sound from like Spotify or what if you want to listen to classical music or or whatever you can do that yeah yeah so you can listen to wuang Clan while you play chess yeah I mean honestly honestly playing Blitz chess help listening to music usually helps me
• 132:30 - 133:00 because like doing tasks that are more intuition based um then that helps with the flow with longer games um You probably don't want that disturbance but I've definitely played some of my best Blitz chest just um um yeah listening listening to music sitting there bopping um um yeah I think some wild Norwegian
• 133:00 - 133:30 music R Ramstein or something that's actually German but uh they have some good they have some good songs no I think my best my just my best chess has probably been Norwegian rap Norwegian rap really what's a good new regian rap band that you could or rap group that you could recommend uh there's a guy called um Mr pimp lotion and oral be Mr pimp lotion and oral be they're kind of it's like a little bit
• 133:30 - 134:00 ironic but they're like doing like American like West Coast rap in in Norwegian oh that sounds badass this is a bit of a difference one but I I actually I actually did a song with Mr pimp lotion I actually did a song with those guys why what a great name Mr pimp lotion it's incredible
• 134:00 - 134:30 yeah there's um yeah the thing about the the what happened was that they did a show and they have this this thing called SP which is like um a moisturizer mostly used for for animals but like this Mr pan like he's obsessed with that one and somebody apparently stole the that from backstage um at at their concert and so
• 134:30 - 135:00 they they didn't know who it was but they eventually found out and they made a song about it and so they had a bunch of people like send in their verses uh incredible the difference between America and Norway what the rappers are rapping about there's gang Wars and shootings and in Norway somebody's like who stole my lotion yeah there there actually was a uh there
• 135:00 - 135:30 actually was a a popular song um like about 20 years ago that referenced specifically that in Norwegian that there was nothing to rap about because nothing bad ever happens this what he's saying in don't make pull out the gun it's best that someone speak out who this be all who stole my lotion yeah basically there's a bunch of verses
• 135:30 - 136:00 like people accusing each other and then I randomly come in at the very end um and solve the mystery oh was it you oh it wasn't me um I I was I was not at that particular show but um yeah I think I I I I think like the best online chess that I've ever played was probably listening listening to their um to their music wow do you mix it up do you ever listen to like lead Zeppelin or no I I I
• 136:00 - 136:30 listen to a lot of lot of older older stuff um as well um so yeah I'm like I have no idea what's on the chart these days um in general but I find out through Tony yeah I do I find out through the young guys at the club I'm like what are you listening to what is this and I'll you know do Shazam on it and put it on my Spotify playlist that sometimes happens to me as well maybe like once a year or
• 136:30 - 137:00 something yeah otherwise it's um I remember like I asked my sister uh probably like 10 years ago like I saw playlist and I like do you have anything from before 2000 and like yeah of course Britney SPS Baby One More Time 999 so I'm kind of the opposite of that well that's awesome well listen man it's been awesome having you in here I really appreciate you doing this and uh tell everybody when the Netflix uh show is
• 137:00 - 137:30 out uh I don't know but it's it's in within a few months for sure uh Jamie do you know I didn't say didn't say when it's coming out well we will put it up on the Instagram when it's out and uh it's been awesome talking to you man I really appreciate it thank you thanks for coming in all right Tony fun times fun time all right goodbye everybody [Music]