Larian Studios Talks About Its Future

Summary

Highlights

• Larian Studios wraps up eight years of development on Baldur's Gate 3. 🎉
• Major updates have been released for Baldur's Gate 3, including modding toolkit expansions. 🔧
• The studio is focusing its development efforts on two ambitious new projects. 🎯
• Machine learning is used for task automation, but creativity remains human-led. 🤖
• Vincke stresses the importance of player community involvement in games. 🌍
• The studio avoids DLCs, putting energy into creating entirely new game experiences. 🔄

Key Takeaways

• Swen Vincke emphasizes the role of human creativity despite the rise of machine learning. 🧠
• Larian Studios is tackling two ambitious new game projects simultaneously. 🚀
• The studio continues to foster community engagement through modding post-launch of Baldur's Gate 3. 🚪
• They choose not to focus on DLCs, prioritizing new game projects instead. 🎮
• Vincke talks about maintaining Larian's indie spirit while scaling up operations. 🏗️

Overview

Chapters

• 00:00 - 01:00: Introduction and Recent Developments The chapter introduces Tomore and Swen from Larian as they discuss exciting developments for the fans of Larian, notably the recent major patch for Baldur's Gate 3. This patch, which was unexpected by many, includes new subclasses, crossplay, and a photo mode, adding significant content and features to the game.
• 01:00 - 03:30: Current Status of BG3 and Future Projects The chapter titled 'Current Status of BG3 and Future Projects' discusses the unexpected developments and inflection points faced during the creation of Boulders Gate 3. The speaker highlights the current status of the team, focusing on future goals, expectations, and the commitment required from both a development and personnel perspective. It reflects on the culmination of eight years of development, underscoring the longevity and challenges of the project.
• 03:30 - 05:30: Ambitions for New RPGs and Structuring for Two Projects The chapter discusses the final updates being added to a game before it is handed over to modders, highlighting a significant update to the modding toolkit that now allows for campaign creation. The developers express anticipation for the forthcoming projects from the community and commit to providing support for major bugs that might arise due to changes in operating systems and platforms.
• 05:30 - 09:30: Expanding the Team and Embracing Machine Learning The chapter discusses the company's focus on future projects and development with an emphasis on the next big things. The speaker reflects on past conversations about the team's progress and hints at a major, yet-to-be-revealed project that signifies a notable evolution in their trajectory. It emphasizes the importance of allocating development resources efficiently towards upcoming innovations, particularly in expanding the team and integrating machine learning into their work.
• 09:30 - 13:00: Storytelling vs Narrative Team The chapter discusses the current status and future plans for the studio's projects, particularly focused on Larion. The speaker reflects on the workload involved in game development, specifically for RPGs, and mentions that the studio is actively working on their next major project, which is progressing well.
• 13:00 - 16:30: Role of Machine Learning in Game Development The chapter discusses the ambitious and complex role of machine learning in game development. It highlights the new possibilities that machine learning offers and the challenges developers face in organizing efforts when working on multiple game projects simultaneously. The complexity of creating intricate games with numerous components is also emphasized.
• 16:30 - 20:00: Impact of Automation and AI on Workflows This chapter discusses the challenges and impacts of automation and AI on workflows, focusing on the complexities and uncertainties in predicting task completions and organizing projects. It highlights the need for growth and restructuring in teams to handle multiple projects, considering the necessity of expanding teams to effectively manage and execute tasks efficiently.
• 20:00 - 27:00: Balancing Innovation and Indie Spirit The chapter titled 'Balancing Innovation and Indie Spirit' focuses on the complexities involved in game development, especially when incorporating new technologies like machine learning. It notes that while such advancements can expedite processes, they also add layers of complexity. The discussion also touches on the challenges of creating RPG games where workflow and creative input are crucial at every stage of development, from the beginning to the end of the process.
• 27:00 - 32:00: Challenges and Plans for Large Studios The chapter titled "Challenges and Plans for Large Studios" discusses the unpredictable nature of project timelines, likened to a 'waterfall,' where the outcome and what follows are difficult to foresee. The speaker emphasizes the importance of efficiently utilizing team resources, suggesting that ideally, staff from one project should transition onto the next project to avoid unnecessary growth and maintain efficiency. The strategy involves planning around each project’s needs and preparing team members to move onto subsequent projects as current ones phase out.
• 32:00 - 39:00: The Viability of Single Player Games The chapter discusses the typical process in game development starting with design and ending with quality assurance testing, where bugs are fixed. However, the process isn't straightforward as there are many challenges to manage. Additionally, the studio is establishing a dedicated team for storytelling, indicating that stories are central to their game development strategy.
• 39:00 - 46:00: Empowering Developers to Focus on Unique Games The chapter discusses the shift in strategy towards preparing game stories ahead of time rather than at the beginning of production. This change aims to manage the production process more effectively by having a ready backlog of stories for upcoming games. By doing so, the team hopes to stay ahead of challenges, as part of broader efforts to optimize their workflow. Additionally, new job positions have been recently opened, indicating an expansion or reinforcement of their team.
• 46:00 - 59:00: Prediction of Game Industry Trends and Challenges The chapter discusses the formation and role of storytelling teams in the gaming industry. It highlights that these teams are being established to collaborate with writing teams for crafting stories for both current and future games. The focus is on forward-looking narrative plans, indicating a strategic move to enhance storytelling elements in upcoming gaming projects. Additionally, a distinction is made between storytelling and narrative teams, though the specific difference is not detailed in the transcript.
• 59:00 - 70:00: Collaboration with the Community and Modding Support This chapter discusses the differences between narrative design and dialogue writing, highlighting the complexities involved in both processes. It emphasizes the importance of collaboration with the community, especially in the context of modding support for games. The chapter points out that while these two aspects might appear similar at first glance, they require distinct approaches and skill sets. Additionally, there's a discussion on the importance of covering all permutations and ensuring narratives can arc over long periods, potentially across multiple games.
• 70:00 - 75:00: DLC Business and Developer Passion This chapter discusses the importance of specialization in various disciplines within the context of creating downloadable content (DLC) and the broader gaming industry. It emphasizes the need for talent with specific backgrounds, such as screenwriting for creating compelling scenes, or experience in crafting trilogies or TV series for content that needs to last across multiple games. The chapter highlights the diverse skill sets required to ensure high-quality storytelling in games.
• 75:00 - 81:00: Looking Ahead: Future Goals for Larian Studios Larian Studios emphasizes the importance of planning in advance to effectively manage the complexities of interactive storytelling in their games. They highlight the need for a proactive approach to ensure that storylines remain dynamic and responsive to player choices. While planning is crucial, having sufficient resources ready to address unexpected developments during game production is also essential.

Larian Studios Talks About Its Future Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 Hello everyone. I'm Tomore and it is my pleasure to be joined today by Swen from Larian. Swen, how are you doing? I'm great. How about yourself? I'm doing good. It's been an exciting time for fans of Larian. I mean, I feel like it's been an exciting time for fans of Larian for about over two years now at this point given the longevity of Bowlers Gate 3, but um you just recently put out a major patch which somewhat unexpected for a lot of people, but significant. It had like those new subasses and crossplay and photo mode and it feels substantial
• 00:30 - 01:00 in a way. Um, which again seems a bit unexpected, but it kind of feels also like a a inflection point in the development of that. So, where where are you and the team currently at with Boulders Gate 3, both in terms of going forward and setting expectations and also your own commitment to it from a development and people power perspective? Uh well I mean it's the end of eight years of development really. Uh so it's been a very long journey. Uh we
• 01:00 - 01:30 wanted to go out with a bang in terms of what we were going to add to the game and hand it over to the modders. Uh so the modding toolkit has uh received a significant update. People can now start making campaigns. Uh the so we're going to see what's going to come from that. I think you'll see quite a few things if I uh I hear the things that they're working on. Um and then really what you're going to see is us giving support to uh any major bugs that pop up. Um operating systems change, platforms change. So we'll
• 01:30 - 02:00 continue to support those things. Uh never say never. Uh so you never know if we surprise people. Uh it happens from time to time. Uh but from where we are now, it really is focused on the next big things for us so that we can put all of our de development attention there. Uh, so last time we talked you, speaking of next big things, last time we talked, we talked about the next project that the team was working on and it being a a big kind of evolution of where you're at, but not the the one that you've got in your head, which is the one that
• 02:00 - 02:30 comes after this. So, as an update now, um, kind of where are you at with what comes next um, for Larion and also the projects that you're working on? Like what's next for the studio itself? Uh well, so I was just I just came out of the meeting where I told people I painfully remember now how much work it is to make a game or a big RPG. That's for sure. Uh so we're deep in the trenches on on on working on our next big thing. Uh it's shaping up quite well
• 02:30 - 03:00 actually. Uh but it's it's crazy ambitious. Um I mean like there's so much new things that we can do these days. Uh so yeah, it's h complex. Uh and on top of that we're trying to figure out how we're going to be making uh two games. Uh so we talked about that openly that we're working on two games. Um so organizing ourselves for that also is also not the easiest thing in the universe because we we make very complicated games with lots of
• 03:00 - 03:30 permutations uh with lots of uh agency for players. Uh so predicting when those are going to be finished is hard and then trying to organize two games around that is even harder. So keeping ourselves busy really. Yeah. I mean like it sounds like you need to grow to kind of take uh be able to execute on those things. So do you anticipate like adding new teams? Do you are you is the team currently set up to be a two project team already or are you starting to build that as you go along? Well, we're
• 03:30 - 04:00 building that. I mean it's um it's it's a complex equation because you you're at a stage in in game development where things are accelerating. Uh there's a machine learning is an accelerator. It allows you to do things faster. Uh so uh making an RPG where flow dictates everything uh is um it's it's very very hard because you need a lot of people at the end of the waterfall. a lot of people at the beginning of the waterfall. Uh trying to
• 04:00 - 04:30 know when the waterfall will get what comes from the top of the waterfall is hard to predict. Uh so you have to scope for that. Uh the ideal cases where you can reuse as many people from one team on the on the second project. Uh so we try not to grow too much on that front. So we really try to scope for what we need for one game and then organize ourselves so that when stuff goes down the waterfall, people are ready to to work on the next uh big thing. Uh so the waterfall obviously meaning uh if you in
• 04:30 - 05:00 simple terms would say like you start with design then at the end of the day you have QA that is testing everything that was done and people are fixing bugs uh and at that time you technically speaking would want people in design already to be working on the next thing but it's not as simple as that so because you have to deal with a lot of things right and if I'm thinking correctly is it the case that the studio is now kind of setting up a dedicated team for storytelling is that correct Yeah, that's true. Uh, so uh stories are our bread and butter. Uh,
• 05:00 - 05:30 so we need to uh make sure that stories are ready ahead of time. In the past, we actually made them at the beginning of our production. So it's one of those things that we're doing to ensure that we have our waterfall under control. Uh so we're trying to make the stories of our future games now so that we have a big backlog of stories available for us when we start on the next thing. So, it's one of those things that we're doing uh to to to beat the curve. There's many others uh and we just opened the positions uh last week. So,
• 05:30 - 06:00 we're building a fairly large storytelling team to work together with our a writing team. So, the writers work on the games. Storytelling teams basically create stories uh in whatever form for future games. Uh and then obviously they work together with our teams on on the current games also. But it's really more of a forward-looking thing than a than a a today thing. Right. Yeah. I was going to say like for people who might not be super aware of what the difference between is something like a storytelling team and a narrative team, how do you kind of explain that
• 06:00 - 06:30 cuz you know someone like me will go well aren't they basically the same thing like don't you have it sounds like your approach is to kind of lay foundations for others to to kind of work from. I used to I used to think the same thing. Uh but but then I got educated from uh from from reality. Uh no uh narrative design, dialogue writing, um making sure that you have all permutations covered. Uh arcs over longer periods of time across multiple games. Uh these are all different
• 06:30 - 07:00 disciplines and they require specialization and so you need people that are are used to doing these things. I mean, if you make a great scene, screenwriting background is going to be very useful. If you want to make something that has to last across multiple games, you maybe take uh people that are used to making trilogies uh or making TV series or seasons. Uh so there's a wide variety of talent that you need if you if you want to make sure that your stories are going to be uh up to scratch. Uh and uh we are a company
• 07:00 - 07:30 that iterates a lot and that needs a lot of story because uh when you play our games and you decide to do something you want your story to continue. So somebody needs to have thought of this. Uh so we need a it takes us a lot of work to do these things and to prevent uh that waterfall that I was talking about from standing still. Uh we learned that it's better to do these things up front rather than at the moment itself. Although you still need a lot of capacity at the moment itself to deal with whatever you discovered in the
• 07:30 - 08:00 game. It might sound abstract in practice it really means uh we implemented the quest in the game. You're playing it and then you look at it and you say hey I really want to be able to do this. Oh yeah that's really cool but what does it mean right? What does it mean for the characters? What does it mean for the plot? So these things all need to be thought through and then they need to be implemented. It's interesting because most people might not know that you're a founder of you're the founder of Lion, but you're also very much involved in the storytelling aspect of it. You're writing a bunch of it, which is kind of rare for people at an executive level.
• 08:00 - 08:30 Where do you kind of fall within that whole team, the existing one and the new one it seems you're trying to build here? Well, uh I'm it's I'm the game director. So, it's uh I I work on the core story of how flow of the entire game is going to be and then I look at the very the other end how it's been implemented and then I give feedback to the team of try this or try that. Uh so I'm a little bit everywhere across that uh entire pipeline but I'm only one person. So I have an entire team whom
• 08:30 - 09:00 I'm working with. Uh so I've got my writing team, I've got my design team. Uh so they're doing a lot of that work. Um, but what we did realize is like we need someone that is a little bit more detached from the day-to-day interactions that we're doing like because you get very very very close to what you're writing and so we need somebody it's a little bit more in the background. So that's where that storytelling piece is is going to fit. You mentioned earlier that obviously you need people who are specialists in what they do and then you also alluded to the
• 09:00 - 09:30 fact that you have two projects in development at the same time. Um, firstly is there anything you can tell us about those projects? Uh but secondly, um if I'm right thinking that Larine's about 500 developers, uh is um which means you're going to have to like figure out new ways to kind of workflow that with a new team as well. Um and you also mentioned earlier machine learning which is kind of like a a alarm signal in a lot of people's heads. So what what are these kind of uh mechanisms that you're putting in place on are they on
• 09:30 - 10:00 tools that you're kind of moving towards? Are they more people focused or are you doing you know what a lot of larger developers are now doing and looking to stuff like AI and machine learning? How much of that should people be aware of and how are you going to implement that if at all? That's a lot of questions all at once. Yeah. Uh so um okay well let's start with the the latter part. Uh machine learning means a lot of things right? So um for us uh we essentially there's there's three things
• 10:00 - 10:30 uh that we uh use it for. First is automation of task that nobody wants to do. Um it's the obvious things like emotion capture cleaning or voice editing or um something very L specific retargeting. Uh so that is basically if you play with different species uh you want to be able to reuse an animation on a different species but they're in different size and then they're doing certain interactions with others. So these are things for which machine learning works really well. Uh then there's what's called white boxing. That's an important one for us because it allows us to iterate rap more
• 10:30 - 11:00 rapidly. White boxing is essentially the stage before you actually redo the real implementation. The thing that's going to ship uh where uh you try something out. So uh it can be that you say okay well let's try these things out. And typically that takes some time before you can actually play it. And so you can accelerate that with machine learning. So it's good for that. And then the most exciting thing is where you can use it for new gameplay. Uh so truth be told, we're not there yet. I don't think uh we're we're close to doing that. But you you experiment with
• 11:00 - 11:30 it. Uh because um for an RPG developer, what you really want is something that helps with uh reactivity to agency. Uh so permutations that you did not foresee uh reactions to things that the players has done uh in the world. Uh they will certainly augment uh the gameplay experience. So that's uh where that is. But the the reason why people typically have the red alarm, the red bells or the red flags or red lights going on uh is because it's going to affect people or it's going to steal their work. Uh at
• 11:30 - 12:00 least for us in those departments which are typically flagged uh in in those areas, you see that the amount of people that we're hiring is going up, not going down. I mean like and I think it's very normal also because I mean it's in the end it's a tool that's available to everybody. So the difference will always be in what you do with it and what people are going to be doing with it, right? So it just changes the baseline from which you start because there are certain true things that you can do faster. Um uh but you it's always going to be the people uh that are going to
• 12:00 - 12:30 make the difference in it. And so for us it's uh it's yeah super clear that we're investing heavily into the team and the human touch that's being added to that. And so to bring it back then to your uh original question um so what it helps us with uh because I mentioned automation that means that there's more time for doing things it also means that there's more volume of stuff being produced uh which means that we can do more complex things. Now when complexity goes up things start getting really interesting. So it's fair to say that the games that
• 12:30 - 13:00 are being made today are arguably more complex than they uh were in the past. So dealing with that complexity is a question of uh again automation trying to stuff out um there there are things that we call that narrative validation it's basically trying to figure out I did 300 choices here that led to this particular permutation did I write something that's not correct anymore and then we try to automate the discovery of these things which is very uh it's not
• 13:00 - 13:30 working super well yet but it is something that you want to do because it takes a lot of time to get to to go through these things and not they're not very creative. Uh so you try to organize your uh your processes, your pipeline to put as much automation as you can to accelerate your iteration. The faster you can iterate, the faster you will get to a a certain result. Uh and then and the tightening of those pipelines should allow you in theory uh to make your games in a more efficient manner. But the I'm deviating I know from your
• 13:30 - 14:00 original question. But what happens when you do that is typically that your complexity goes up because now you say I can do more. So the net result is exactly the same length of development time that you're going to have. Uh but the way that the rules fluctuate through it is is hard uh to predict. So what we're doing uh to now finally really answer your question uh is we are uh we have teams that are purely focused on the design and so they're separate from the other teams and they're just literally focusing on
• 14:00 - 14:30 that uh while the others are working on the main game and they're preparing everything for uh the second game but their ability to previsualize things uh in terms of how it's going to flow is slightly faster than it used to be in the past. um also because we obviously have a very big toolkit that we've developed over uh this entire period of time and so our hope is that uh eventually those things will click into one another. Uh but I'll be very transparent. We're looking still on how
• 14:30 - 15:00 that's going to work exactly. It is not a um it's not something that you can just put on an Excel file and say and now it goes there. You know, it's it's very very very organic. The uh the art of development is a remains an art. It's not an exact science. Yeah. I guess the the kind of we talk about those red flags. I think the thing that people will mostly respond to and no doubt will probably respond to your kind of reaction is is the human touch element of it. So that's where people are like, "Oh, if you're
• 15:00 - 15:30 kind of, you know, speeding everything up using automation, what's the line between making sure that, you know, you still have that human touch part of it?" Because we've seen we've seen art out there now that is generated very quickly and it's the closer you more scrutiny you give it the more you realize oh this is it's missing things it's soulless and that kind of stuff. So how do you make sure that line is drawn for people and tell the audience that hey we're using automation and AI that kind of stuff but
• 15:30 - 16:00 the game won't turn into kind of you know like generic slop. Yeah. I don't think you're ever going to see anything that's generated in the game itself. uh at least now in what we're making now except for the online bits if we ever manage to get that to work. Uh so the reactive bits but that that will be clear. I think uh I always think of it like FIFA uh in FIFA they're reacting to what you're doing when you're shooting uh on the goal and they say oh that's striker scores it's procedural generation uh that is going on real time. So that's what I meant with the with the the gameplay bits. So there's no new ways of doing that but in terms
• 16:00 - 16:30 of the content in terms of content that's being created that's still mean being made by hand. So that's uh um it's there these are very long and complex pipelines before something gets uh into your hands right so um the things where it's being used the most is in terms of predicting flow uh and flow is a it's interest so I'll give you a practical example um so we discovered already in the past that if we write out
• 16:30 - 17:00 a situation and we are going to uh talk about it we're going to get very excited, right? And then we're going to uh try to put in the white boxing, we're going to script it and we're going to try to play it. All right. And so uh if the environment around uh the so of the situation is empty, right, what you notice is that the scripting will never get have any good feeling to it for some strange reason. Regardless of how much times we talk to the scriptors or we try
• 17:00 - 17:30 to explain to them, there's a thing you don't see it. you don't react to it. Right? Now, if you uh completely decorate the entire level and you do the same exercise, you say, "Here's a situation." And you give the descriptor, you're going to see that it's completely different, right? So, it's going to feel more real and you get a better feel for is the situation going to work, yes or no. Now, it takes a lot of time to do that. Uh and it's not necessarily something that's going to ship because it's just a trial at that point in time. If you can accelerate that fi that phase, the uh iteration time that went
• 17:30 - 18:00 into the into thinking about the flow has been decreased and so you're going to get more iteration because more things will be tried out and so you're going to get a better result as a at the end of it at all times in this process. It was the the the person the developer that was guiding this process that was using their creativity. This was not generated. The only thing that was generated is just the environment at that particular point in time. But that's not something you're going to ship, right? So the same thing goes for pretty much everything that you would
• 18:00 - 18:30 generate. Uh so you tried to to previsualize things because it makes it easier, right? And uh but then afterwards you say okay well uh I think we're going to go in that direction. Let's now see how that goes to what we call orange box. And in orange box you make the things by hand. So that's a very different things still right. So your your kind of like um approach is nothing that is used for is created using machine learning AI will be turned into content as is like well that's just
• 18:30 - 19:00 the early phase of it. A person will come in and take everything that you've done there and manually create that by hand. Yeah. So I mean like uh I have to be careful because I um so if we for instance there is output of machine learning will happen in things like retargeting or in cleaning of a mo motion capture there you will actually see that that gets into the game but that's not the thing that people are worried about. I think it is more about are we going to see is the art that's here is it generated um in
• 19:00 - 19:30 everything that we're doing right now. No, you're not going to see the generated art in uh the output game that's going to to happen. Do we use it during the dev process to previsualize things? Yes. Uh we will try things out or uh to try um but really even then I mean like uh don't expect this to be I think the we're not creating this beautiful great things. This is just like get me I need a chair and a thing in here so I can just have a look if it's going to
• 19:30 - 20:00 work, right? So don't don't uh oversell sell it either for what it is. It is a tool to help you accelerate your development process. So there's not going to be any characters with like five hands unless it's intended to be there. No. No. Exactly. No. No. Certainly not. Do you ever foresee a time where that could that kind of like jump could happen where you feel confident enough in AI to allow it to create content or
• 20:00 - 20:30 is that something that you fundamentally believe as a principle of you know the studio and your own creative process you'll never make that jump? So, I don't think you would have a competitive advantage if you want if you do because it's going to be what's available to everybody, right? So, that's what I meant with the baseline. Uh, if the baseline goes up because generation is available to everybody, fine. That's a new reality that we're in, but you're still going to want to create something special on on top of that, right? So, um, and I think that's
• 20:30 - 21:00 where teams like us will make the difference. We're a very boutique team. We're actually crafting the situations and the float story by hand is a thing that we do. So you it's what was when we talk to people about it. This is always the discussion, right? So uh oh my god, our jobs are going to disappear and said no, but you're just going to work differently potentially. Uh but you're still going to be making the difference. I don't think that people in my position that
• 21:00 - 21:30 say like, oh, we'll replace everybody by AI are doing the right thing. I think they're doing the wrong thing. Uh what I do think is that we're going to jump forward in the type of games that we make. So we're going to make better games that improve in simulating reality and suspending our disbelief. Uh so we're going to be you making our games differently. That's I think goes without any doubts. But to say that it will replace the craftsmanship, I think we're very far from it. For that to happen, you would need real intelligence, I think, and real creativity. And uh even
• 21:30 - 22:00 then, I'm not sure if you're going to get actually human emotion in there also. So you'll need all those things to be you'll need a human to be honest. So now it's the the Android stream of electric sheep, right? So but as long as you as long as the human difference is there, we will be able to make a difference. Uh but we'll be able to do more. Uh that's what you see today already. I mean again when because people often say oh yeah the automation but the automation is a huge thing. There's a I don't know if people understand how much time an animator
• 22:00 - 22:30 spends on stuff they don't want to work on and that now that's being taken away because you can automate it. It's a huge thing. So it adds a lot to the time that they have to work on the creative stuff. Yeah. as you mentioned, do you anticipate saving that time, using that time to shorten development cycles or do you think it will be the same kind of period of time, just more focus where you want it to be instead of where it needs to be at times? So, I think the naive thing is to think that it will
• 22:30 - 23:00 shorten them. Uh, I think that um it's I think the this is an age old truth. If you give a developer two years, they'll take three. Uh so the same thing will be the case here with what you're going to give them in terms of abilities to do stuff. If they have the ability to do things faster, they'll just do more, which is what you want actually. Also, that's why I think it will improve the state-of-the-art in terms of games that we're going to see. You're going to see uh more and more things uh but they will be used in
• 23:00 - 23:30 creative ways that we haven't even imagined yet. H so you mentioned the storytelling department is the new thing that you're kind of working on and setting up and you've got your roles out there which people can find and apply to if they feel uh they have a shot or qualified or want to take a crack at it. One of the things that's been kind of in my mind is the sensibility and the identity of the studio, which I think more and more to people is something they pay attention to. And I think what makes Larian kind of unique or in the
• 23:30 - 24:00 minds of fans and people generally what makes Lion stand out is you're a pretty big team, but you also have that very independent sensibility at the core. Um, so that's something now that I'm I and a lot of people are probably thinking about. How do you maintain that same kind of indep indie energy while both expanding the amount of people that you have and also adding these tools that are kind of more advanced? Yeah, it's a um it's a challenge. Uh so
• 24:00 - 24:30 I mean the baseline attitude to that is to um this is going to sound super corporate uh to empower the developer. Uh so but the idea is really that we try to give every single developer as much freedom as they can get without uh walking outside of the the general lane in which we're heading. Uh so or place it there's certain direction. Uh here's something that we need. Go and do your thing and add whatever you can with x amount of time. Uh so the way that we
• 24:30 - 25:00 organize that I talked about that at last GDC I think is the feature group where we just say this is your feature you own this together with the team that's assigned to it do the best that you can with it and we'll look at it from time to time uh if it's too much out of control we'll tell you but otherwise this is your thing and so that works super well so it's one of our secret uh tricks it's not that secret but uh it works um so I think at GDC we gave the example of the Bart class on on BG3 was one the most successful ones
• 25:00 - 25:30 where we just said to the developers, here's the B class. These are the things that need to happen with it. Go and have fun with it. And then what we got out of it was so much more than what we expected and that works really well when you leave people and you give them the room and the trust to do their thing. And so that attitude I think is important to protect. So we do our best to make sure that that that stays there. But obviously as a team is bigger it requires more organization to allow that to happen. So, it's something we're focused on heavily. Um, funnily enough,
• 25:30 - 26:00 also through automation. Uh, so where you try, it's well, it's it's a stupid thing, right? But it's like a core story has changed. Ah, here's an AI tool that tells you what has changed rather than having to reread the entire document again. It's it's small thing, but it saves so much time in a day. And so, oh, these people need to be aware of these things. All right, great. So, they now they're aware of it. So it's that kind of thing but essentially at the core um it keeps on trusting people to do what they're very good at. So that's it and
• 26:00 - 26:30 uh giving them the space and the and the means uh to do so. So and then I think the the other bit is um yeah trying to be as open as we can. Uh I mean if we have communications problem it's probably because somebody forgot. It's never going to be because it was hidden. Uh so it's also very important but yeah I mean the other thing as as a leader of the studio you probably have thought about or think about or in the process of figuring out is obviously as you grow the stakes for the thing that you're
• 26:30 - 27:00 making become a bit higher because you now have more people to kind of think about how do you kind of approach expansion knowing that the risks then you then have to take become trickier because this the scope of it is bigger more people and the stakes of it are much higher. and you can affect more people. How do you approach that? There's a um I think I talked about this maybe with you. I don't remember if it was with you, right? So, it's always having fallback plan. So, we got a plan B and a plan C.
• 27:00 - 27:30 Uh so, that's that stays the same. Uh so, that hasn't changed since my days when I didn't have money to pay for the gasoline. There's a plan B and there's a plan C. Uh if in case things go wrong. Uh and that is essentially um something I hope I never have to do. So, uh, but I think they're fairly robust. Uh, obviously the proof will be needing a putting. I don't know what the future will bring. Uh, but, um, I feel for the moment I feel fairly confident, uh, that that what we're doing is solid,
• 27:30 - 28:00 right? So, I I'll be able to look in the mirror should it go wrong in the way that things will then roll out, I think. Yeah. I guess you mentioned what your plan is. Um, and I think it's worth asking because a lot of people look to you as kind of a person who's able to cut through the noise and and also your successes are are kind of evident and it gives you an authority. Like what do you think are traditionally the mistakes that get made when implementing something like automation or even
• 28:00 - 28:30 growing a studio that you see happening around you which kind of contribute to the conversation that this is not doable or it's something to be worried about? Well, so the two components, right? So the growing bit we're figuring it out ourselves because we're only just in the growth phase and so others have gone through it. Um so we're definitely aware of the risks. Uh on the automation front, I literally think it's that I mean I've heard people in my position talk about oh I'm going to be able to
• 28:30 - 29:00 replace this and this and this and this and this and I think that's the wrong the wrong attitude to it. It's like um because I again I think for for automation the focus of automation has to be how do I make so that people can do more of what they really matters and less of the stuff that they don't want to do but they have to do because otherwise it doesn't work. I think that's the most important bit. Um so so your focus should be there. Uh and then that's not necessarily a cost reduction. Uh but it is going to be a um an
• 29:00 - 29:30 increase of ability which is a good thing uh when you're making games I think. So that's the important point there. And in terms of scaling, damn, I really don't know. I mean like um we try what we're doing. Uh so we try to keep it sustainable, but every single day day you learn. Uh so you have to adapt and then try to be uh pick our core values are solid right so um our our values are very simply put it's player and team first and that's that's it uh so it's
• 29:30 - 30:00 not profit first which is a very different KPI than a lot of companies and that makes it very uh different and so the belief is that if the content is there the profit will will follow or even even simpler terms uh happy player happy business I I heard that the other day from somebody who was applying for a job here. So I said that's really good actually. So because it literally is the core of what the games industry should be about. Happy player, happy business. Yeah. Uh so and so we focus on that. Uh
• 30:00 - 30:30 and so and we make many mistakes for sure. Uh but uh if you then also try to learn from those mistakes and try not to repeat them at least more than once uh then you're already in a better place also, right? Um, you know, you talked about, you know, your core values and and you the kind of games that you make and for many people especially, you know, you're known as the almost single player storytellers. Um, and you know, you have online elements, but primarily you make
• 30:30 - 31:00 single player games to a degree and have that co-op and you have narrative around them. Um, and there was recently a discussion around kind of the future and the viability of games like that. and you're on Twitter uh popping off talking about um I believe the quote is it's the time of the year when big single player games are declared dead. Use your imagination. They're not. They just have to be good. Um and there's been a lot of discussion that you know there is no place for big single player games which
• 31:00 - 31:30 in turn, you know, is kind of perpetuating the idea that you shouldn't fund these single player games. And you've said that's something that frustrates you. So kind of can you talk a bit about that and where you're at that especially in the context of what you're doing now? Well, I'm not going to name names. It just came up from some very high profile people. So it really frustrated the hell out of me uh because it is what it does is it certainly cuts off a whole bunch of avenues for because that from that side you will not get the funding into the single player
• 31:30 - 32:00 narratives and so that I mean you just got player obscure right so that just came out. Yeah. Uh so um it doesn't make any sense uh at all because this is typically coming from directions where it's all focused on on the microtransactions milk it all you can type of business models. Uh and true there's lots of revenue being generated there more revenue than you're going to get from your single player games. But that doesn't mean that single player games are not a viable market. There's lots of people that want to play a really good single player game and put
• 32:00 - 32:30 money in it. uh especially if they have cooperative multiplayer like ours. Uh so the um so I saying that they they they have no future just because if there's another business model that earns more money it just doesn't make any sense. Uh I mean like it's like with music with books there's room for a lot of things right each their budget. Uh I think we've proven with BG3 that you can put in a pretty high budget and expect pretty high results. So there's market there
• 32:30 - 33:00 and there's other examples. I mean there's Dark Souls for Elden Ring that proves it too, right? So um so it's short-sighted uh I think but um it's true that if you are going to just clone the games that are successful and bring those to the market Yeah. and not not innovate at all. Then you can expect that they're not going to sell. It's obvious, but that goes for any genre, I think. Right. So there's a there's a tolerance to the patience of the player for repeats of the same formula which is the same for everything. It's for
• 33:00 - 33:30 movies, for series, whatever. I mean um I think the the example I often use when discussing this with with the team is uh like the My Little Pony craze from the 2009 when like there was like oh market research has shown that there's still a market for My Little Pony simulators in which you go to a hotel in Bavaria and let's make that game and say the guys. So that's not the right reason for making a game. So this is um so that was
• 33:30 - 34:00 really that. So what I wanted to say is like um I think that for sure there's lots of money to be made in certain avenues but you certainly shouldn't rule out single player game as something that self can be self- sustaining right I guess I obviously everyone's going to be like yeah of course that makes perfect sense but the realities of the industry currently are like people are aware of that and they get behind that but the kind of folks that are making the decisions aren't the people that that that message is reaching So what would
• 34:00 - 34:30 you say like how can developers empower themselves to kind of not abandon the idea of making single player games or narrative focused games that aren't just you know kind of iterative on other games? How do they how do they tackle that kind of conundrum? It's not easy because you obviously you need funding to be able to create your game unless you're really soul funded. Uh and even then you still need funding. Um, so if you need external funding,
• 34:30 - 35:00 you're going to have to convince someone. Uh, and this is going to be the hard part. So that's why that narrative is dangerous. If people start saying that, that narrative propagates even to non-games industry people that are ready to put money into the games industry. Uh, we are an example of a company that at some point had external funding from non-games industry people. If somebody would have kept on repeating that single player games don't make money, they wouldn't have invested in our single player game. uh and that would have been game over. Uh so um I think the the best way that I've
• 35:00 - 35:30 seen is to make something that gets player enthusiastic or people that play games enthusiastic. That's really fun, right? That's not that doesn't start uh because I've seen many powerpoints like this that start uh ah this game is going to be like uh Doom meets Commander Keen, whatever. Uh and so that's fine. Uh and then the next slide is Doom audiences this commander king audience is this. Let's add up these audiences. This is going to be great and said okay well you
• 35:30 - 36:00 lost it now. Uh so because the second slide should have been if it would be a PowerPoint slide let's go to the demo. Yeah and let's let's play some game and then whatever little vertical slides that you have that's really fun. Usually if it's different and it's good it's sufficient to convince somebody that knows what they're talking about. And there's many people in the investment community or in the publishing community still and even in development developers that have been successful they say this actually kind of cool deserves to be made I'll give you some money to make
• 36:00 - 36:30 it uh so or invest in it. So I think that's um it should always be the core what am I making here does this game deserve to be made right? Is there a reason for it to be? If the answer is no then it's normal that nobody's going to invest in it. I think that's fine. But if the answer is yes, then typically you have a a better chance uh of finding someone that's going to be able to fund it. And these days you do have the the the audience, right? You have early access, you have Kickstarter still to a certain extent. Uh so it is possible to
• 36:30 - 37:00 to get people on board, but I'm not going to say that it's easy, right? Uh but it's got to be different. It's got to it's got to offer something new, otherwise it's going to have a hard time. I guess the followup to that is and I'm kind of like just trying to put everything in perspective and I might have a flawed understanding of it. I feel like that kind of approach it makes a lot of sense and I'm sure it can inspire people who operate at a certain level like you know you have these almost indie teams or double A teams whatever you want to call them like the team behind the team behind clear obscure like they could see something
• 37:00 - 37:30 like what you just said and be like yeah I'm going to approach this. However, a lot of people would also argue, but you need to get through to the bigger companies, the almost the corporations like the Sony's and the EAS and that kind of stuff. Do you think it's realistic in this stage and in this stage of the economy and where games are at for them to see that message and be like, "Yes, that's actually viable." I know there was a time where they would do that, but do you think we can go back to that and Yeah. or or do you think that we're beyond that where they need
• 37:30 - 38:00 to operate at such a level where they don't have the ability to kind of turn the ship as it were to to that direction? I think um so not to to to to quote the examples that you just said but just as a general message uh I think they would be wise too. I mean that's how they're going to get innovation. It's not going to come from having to play it safe. It's going to have to come from risk. So here's here here here's the thing right. the uh 101 evolutionary theory with Sven. Uh you only get
• 38:00 - 38:30 evolution if there's mutation. Uh if there's no change, there's no evolution, right? You end up in a what's called a local minimum or basically a dead end. So you need to innovate uh to be able to make progress. Otherwise, you you you you die as a company. Uh here's another one, management. I'm sorry. Uh so this is a topic I think about a lot. Uh so you have this S shape they call it in growth curves of companies something
• 38:30 - 39:00 that we have to deal with right so basically means you're working working working working oh you got your breakthrough so you go up and then I'm on the camera anymore so you're working working up you have your break different direction sorry but anyway h so you you have diminishing revenue or diminishing returns at some point from the thing that makes you break through so if you keep on doing the same thing those diminishing returns will come faster and faster faster and faster and eventually you're going to die out. So you need to make sure that there's new stuff coming in, right? So what's the easiest way of
• 39:00 - 39:30 doing that is investing in young enthusiastic development teams, right? So that are trying stuff out and then figuring out what which of these things is going to be working out and maybe then saying okay well this is ready for a bigger league so we can invest more because obviously the investments are large and there's lots of risk involved etc. But not doing that I think that that would be a death sentence eventually. I mean like you have to um this is all easier said than done by the way but uh so but it is I think imperative that you continue to
• 39:30 - 40:00 invest in new things if you want to sustain yourself as a larger company because at some point whatever made you large is going to lose its value and you're going to have to have something new and if it's not at the pipeline then it's simply too late already. It should have been already coming up. That's the um where you in the middle of your S-curve, you should have already had stuff ready for your next S-curve because then you can change your S-curves after one another. One thing starts dying out. That's fine. There's a new thing coming up. And so you've seen many companies and then that have been
• 40:00 - 40:30 successful in reinventing themselves. Uh but then it's true that you've seen in the recent times there are there's this hyper consolidation that's been happening around certain genres certainly in the freeto play space uh where there's a um innovation becomes harder that's for sure. Yeah. I mean again just trying to get your perspective because you clearly have thought a way more about this from a I don't know I don't know business as well of games that much but like is it viable
• 40:30 - 41:00 because a lot what I see now also is a lot of the bigger companies um they are big successes can come from looking at what a smaller team is doing where the innovation is happening and then executing that on a much bigger scale because of the size of the company they have the ability to reach a much wider audience than that smaller developer can come and almost push them out. Like I don't think of the size doesn't make sense, but I think of like PUBG and kind of like Yeah. and then Fortnite coming
• 41:00 - 41:30 along as a kind of like Epic looking at that potentially and going, you know, they're executing that same kind of idea on a bigger level. I would say Fortnite iterates and has its own innovations, but that basic concept of looking at the little guy going, I can do that bigger and get it to more people quicker. Um, what about that approach to to kind of existing in the in the kind of world of video games development business and that kind of stuff? Well, it sometimes works but not always because you so this
• 41:30 - 42:00 is going to become a a a conversation about management and investments. Uh, so there was one a guy once a guy I forgot who was the study. uh and they looked at a whole bunch of companies that were successful and then they looked at a whole bunch of companies that weren't successful. And so one of the key things that made uh companies successful was to be first to market and they operated in the blue ocean and then um the competition came and they started making the ocean redder and redder because they started killing each other
• 42:00 - 42:30 in the blood colored the water. Uh but the ones that were the first in general survived in the red ocean because they managed to figure out the best island, the best place to be. So in case of uh PUBG versus Fortnite, I mean PUBG did quite well for itself, right? Uh so uh they were first to market. Many people came after and had a harder time trying to do the same thing. uh Fortnite uh obviously and famously um did at a larger scale with much higher production values and then uh with an enormous
• 42:30 - 43:00 machine behind it. Uh so so did well but there's lots of examples where you see people trying to do the same thing and it doesn't work that well right so uh there's um I mean think of the action RPG uh like the the literally the original action RPG when talking about Diablo clones right so there were a shitload of Diablo clones but there were not many Diablo clones that succeeded in there right yet the formula was simple that what they started out with and same for the RTS by the way also actually
• 43:00 - 43:30 right so how many RTS's we have but still we're still talking about well Warcraft and then Command and Conquer and uh then it starts getting harder if you have to start thinking about which what's the next one right so so I wouldn't say that that's uh I think you're better off having PUBG inside your company uh or working with them uh on something yeah I guess it all comes down to like what is the priority for your company is it to make money fast is it to make a lot of money or is it to build something unique and sustainable
• 43:30 - 44:00 potent potentially, right? Well, I like to think that if you're a game developer, you you want to make games. So, I think that should be your first priority. I mean, like if you want to make money, there's the financial market. So, also lose money. Uh but I mean like uh I think the games industry like movie industry, people get into the movie industry because they want to make movies, right? Not because they want to make money. Same thing goes for games. But games make a lot of money and that attracts a lot of people. And so as a result of that, you get a lot of people
• 44:00 - 44:30 that are suddenly there for making money and forget what it is that is making games. I was my my talk at the at the or the speech at the game awards was literally about that. Uh seeing that spreadsheet first and the game second is never a good idea in this industry. Put the game first and you your spreadsheet will follow if you put the game first. You don't have to worry about that. But for some reason that that that truth doesn't permeate which is really frustrating because that as a result of that you see so many wastes of bandwidth
• 44:30 - 45:00 happening in the industry that's like where you say okay you know what I mean you look at all these things coming out you say oh that was a money-making thing that was a money making thing that was a money-m thing and you can almost like you can almost say like what are the probabilities it's going to succeed you almost know already up front it's not going to work because I'm not excited as a player about it. Yeah, I think one of the just maybe this is a question, maybe this something you can just respond to. Like one of the things I really appreciate that you do is when you're on Twitter, you kind of highlight
• 45:00 - 45:30 games that are coming out that are worth uh kind of checking out even if they're like you talk about like Expedition 33. You've talked about Scold before. I know you were on the Bellacho train pretty early. How how important is that is that for you as a personal kind of like crusade almost and how why do you why do you do that and do you think other developers in prominent positions should be doing the same thing? I think a lot of developers do. I mean and I think it you do it because you somebody did it
• 45:30 - 46:00 for you maybe and you appreciate it tremendously. I mean the shout out from developers that are more establishes is is worth gold to a younger developer or to somebody that's up and coming. So it's it's a sign of support really. I mean like uh that's it's also to our prior point right so the de there's a quite a community of developers because we all know how much we have to go through to make our games right so we empathize with each other and we understand when we see something especially when we see something good we know man how did you
• 46:00 - 46:30 get here there must have been a story there to get there to that point and that's um I think uh showing that is important and then um yeah if I get excited about the game I definitely want to tell people about because it's like just okay this is this is my thing I'm I'm I'm very keen on yeah it kind of is in line with your core principles that you talked about as as a developer and one of the other things that also is that is I'd love to get your kind of insight on the kind of ownership and
• 46:30 - 47:00 collaboration with the community cuz recently obviously you you were very open about uh the situation around the uh Stardew mod which was a pretty big deal, you know, and you came out and you said that free quality fan mods highlighting your characters in other game genres are proof your work resonates and is a unique form of word of mouth. Obviously, a lot of companies won't take that same approach, but you kind of seem you also said there are good ways of dealing with this where there is kind of like this two parties
• 47:00 - 47:30 fighting over the same kind of like ownership of over something. What do you think are those good ways of dealing with it and why do you think it's important if you don't know them to try and figure them out? So IP law is really tricky. Yeah, it's uh it's it's one of those laws that you it's a hard time dealing with it because it's an at the core it's an exclusion law. It's a deviation from a general principle. There should be a free market. H so that's why you have all these stupid things around it. So that
• 47:30 - 48:00 does need to be said that because it leads companies to do strange things uh as a result of it. Um now, uh but uh as a company that owns IP, uh it's perfectly possible to give somebody a license. So you could just say, "Hey, I think what you're doing is really cool. Here's a license." Uh and that solves it. And I think that's what was done in this case. I think there was a So that's the easiest way of do dealing with it. Um, if you're a company, uh, especially in games or in any
• 48:00 - 48:30 entertainment and you have a group of people, uh, that spends I don't know how much time on creating something in honor of your game, especially in another game. Uh, I think you should applaud that. It's really cool, right? So, I mean, like it's passion. Uh, it is word of mouth from a marketing point of view. Uh, and it is if it's good, it's a contribution to the entire games uh, ecosystem. So um yeah I think those are are are good
• 48:30 - 49:00 things to happen right so it's different when it gets exploited commercially because then suddenly you could there's a really good argument to be made hold on we do need to have conversation there but when it's free when it's fan-based and when it's clearly fan-based I think it's different right so there's um well I mean um there's lots of games that have truckloads of uh things made around it that people share with each other, right? And then just I so I don't think you need to
• 49:00 - 49:30 crack down on that. I think that that's the wrong message. Yeah. I think I think one of the most interesting kind of bring this to a close is about BG3 is it's been a huge success um from various perspectives. But I think what's for me as someone who like looks at the industry and culture around it is what's really been crucial is it has had a huge impact on culture around video games and it has made a mark um which isn't likely to go away for a really long time which
• 49:30 - 50:00 if you are inclined to put it in like capitalism thinking um means that there's a lot more people uh kind of dedicated to that game that IP that world long term which again if you want to make money you've longerterm revenue generating uh opportunities, but at the same time, this audience has kind of taken on a life of its own and it has ramifications beyond just the release of the game and like you said now like you're you've
• 50:00 - 50:30 given BG3 to the community. Um do you think that's something that people really underestimate the power of having impacting the culture as a as opposed to just thinking about the bottom line? Well, it's it comes down from the same thing, right? Happy player, happy business. Yeah. Uh so it's literally I mean like um we cannot sustain at the level that the the modding community is making mods for BG3 the the content pipe. We cannot do it with just oh well
• 50:30 - 51:00 we could if we were to use AI for it, but you don't want that. So uh so the if you want a game to live that's the best way of doing it. Uh it goes it's the same like development. If I want our games to be great I have to make sure the developers own it. If I'm going to be the one owning it's never going to be great because I can't do everything. I need the developers to do it. Same thing goes with the players. If the players own the game they'll make it fantastic.
• 51:00 - 51:30 So we had many examples in the past. So it's a it's a miracle actually that not more people have figured this out by now. Uh so I mean Skyrim comes to mind as a game that where modding made it huge. Right. So uh but that's gone I mean like um not I don't have to tell you what Warcraft 3 did. Yeah. In terms of mods, what that led to. Yeah. Uh so so many many many cool things happen when you give people ownership over them and as a company you can perfectly
• 51:30 - 52:00 profit from it. I mean like you um your core game is going to keep on selling uh and whatever if we don't we're not in a DLC business but if we would have been in the DLC business I'm sure we would have benefited from it also. It's not as if that those opportunities go away. You just have a stronger broader community that's more engaged. And so I cannot understand uh why you would not want that and I think more and more people are starting to figure that out. Uh and so and
• 52:00 - 52:30 players are getting more vocal also about it. So it's a good thing. Right. So that's the the days of I was I was seeing this tweet the other day because we had the Oblivion remaster and somebody said, "Oh my god, I bought the horse armor." Yeah, that is a hell of a turnaround as well. Um I thought that was funny. Yeah, that's very very funny actually. Um, you mentioned something there that I would love to kind of expand on a bit. Um, and maybe even get your thinking behind just even if it's like not been said for a while is you said you're not in the DLC
• 52:30 - 53:00 business, which is, you know, conventional wisdom would say you need to be in the DLC business to make the most out of the thing that you're making. Um, why are you not in the DLC business? Um, is that a hard and fast rule? Um, or is it somewhat malleable given the context you're in? And what's the justification for right now not being in the DLC business? But it's boring. Uh so it's really to really the honest answer is like we try to be in the DLC business. Uh this is a talked about that uh so with BG3 and but just
• 53:00 - 53:30 it's no passion and I mean like um happy player happy business but you also need to have happy developer for a happy player. So, and um what we're doing now makes developers way more happy. So, I we ear because this is it was what we were supposed to do, right? So, oh, we got a huge game, huge hit like, oh, we got to make DLC this and DLC that and DLC there and DLC there and the money's going to pile up all and
• 53:30 - 54:00 like and we just nodded and said, yeah, we'll make DLCs. And then the moment that we had some time to think, uh we realized, what are you doing? Uh so, sometimes I progressive insight is not a bad thing. Uh so sometimes you go down the wrong path and then you say, "Oh, it." You know, just change course French uh and uh just do something else. Right. To bring us to a close, final question, just kind of broadly speaking, like you've kind of outlined where Laren is going for the future. Um what is kind of your like
• 54:00 - 54:30 mission statement from this point on for the studio? And you know, where do you hope to be in 5 10 years from now? So, we got an ambitious project. Uh, so um I'm not going to just tell you yet what uh but I hope that um five definitely five years from now uh I can tell you about it. Uh so and saying yeah this is working out. This is what we're doing. uh and we are uh in a position
• 54:30 - 55:00 where we can craft multiple RPGs side by side uh so that we don't have to worry about people going idle because that's actually the main reason why we're doing multiple projects right we have this waterfall where you have a smaller group that starts thinking about what we're going to make and then this very large group that executes on it and talks to the people that were thinking about it but then when that very large group is finished if the people at the beginning are not ready then everybody's stuck because everybody has to wait, right? That's what we're trying to avoid. Uh so
• 55:00 - 55:30 I hope that I can tell you five years from now, hey, we cracked it. We figured it out. This is what we're doing now. Here's game one. We're making this completely different thing. That's an important bit, this completely different thing. Game two. Uh and then when game two is going to be ready, we already got another thing that's going to come and it's going to and if we can make that work in a really good way that we enjoy our lives, uh that's that's going to be mission accomplished. um in practice it will probably be miserable and it's going to be plenty of stuff that went wrong. Uh but that's the goal that's so that's what we're trying to to to to
• 55:30 - 56:00 work towards. So something that we can get really multiple things that we can really get excited about but I don't think that's the problem but then actually being able and executing on them also without killing ourselves. I think that's the the important bit. Amazing. Well SW I hope it's not five years before we get to talk again but um I do appreciate your time. My wife will divorce me if it takes Thank you so much for for joining me and spending a bit of time kind of speaking about the future and you know current
• 56:00 - 56:30 state of the industry. I really appreciate it. All right. Thank you very much, Sam.