Pitching IT/OT Integration to Management w/ BCG | EP07 - The Connected Factory

Summary

In this episode of 'The Connected Factory' podcast, Alex, co-founder of the United Manufacturing Hub, discusses the integration of IT and OT in manufacturing with Timman, a partner at BCG. They explore the transformation of automation technology into Software Defined Automation (SDA), drawing parallels with IT best practices. They delve into the necessity of a unified architecture to unlock value in manufacturing operations, emphasizing collaboration and scalability across industries. The conversation also touches on approaches to pitching these advanced technologies to management, fostering a mindset shift towards buy versus build philosophies, and integrating open-source solutions into industrial settings.

Highlights

• Automation technology is evolving towards a 'software-defined' approach, mimicking IT practices. 🚀
• Unified architectures in manufacturing are key to scaling efficiently and reducing implementation costs. 📈
• The right strategy helps pitch IT/OT integration to management focusing on business outcomes. 💼
• A strategic mix of AI and technical capabilities should focus on unlocking value while aligning with the enterprise strategy. 🤖
• Adapting open-source models in traditional manufacturing settings can drive innovation and rapid problem-solving. 🛠

Key Takeaways

• The future of automation lies in Software Defined Automation (SDA), borrowing strategies from IT. 💡
• Unified architectures can drastically lower costs and improve scalability in industrial settings. 🔧
• The successful pitch to management focuses on tangible business value rather than technical specifics. 🎯
• Building versus buying is an essential strategic decision, influenced by company DNA. 🧐
• Open-source technology is becoming more trusted and integrated into industrial settings. 🌍

Overview

In this enlightening podcast episode, Alex from United Manufacturing Hub teams up with Timman, a BCG partner, to delve into the transformative potential of integrating Information Technology (IT) with Operational Technology (OT) in manufacturing. They discuss how automation is shifting towards a 'software-defined' ethos, effectively blending IT prowess with OT needs for more robust, scalable systems.

The discussion emphasizes the critical importance of establishing unified architectures in industrial settings. These architectures not only facilitate efficient scaling and reduce costs but also pave the way for innovative IT/OT solutions that can unlock significant business value. The speakers highlight the strategic importance of communicating these technological advancements in terms that resonate with business leaders—focused on the economic impact and operational enhancements rather than technical jargon.

Moreover, the conversation touches upon the strategic decisions companies face about building or buying technology solutions. Timman and Alex advocate for a nuanced approach, considering company culture and capacity, alongside the growing role of open-source technology in fostering a collaborative ecosystem that drives rapid advancements in the manufacturing sector.

Chapters

• 00:00 - 01:30: Introduction and Guest Introduction This chapter introduces the podcast 'Connected Factory' and its host Alex, the co-founder and CEO of United Manufacturing Hub. The episode features a guest named Timman, who is a partner at BCG (Boston Consulting Group) and focuses mainly on Industry 4.0 topics. Timman has a technical background, having served as a CTO in the past, which enables him to translate technical problems effectively.
• 01:30 - 03:30: Technical Background and Industry Trends This chapter delves into the intersection of technical architecture challenges and organizational necessities, transforming these challenges into business value. The discussion highlights the importance of understanding these technical aspects at the management level. The conversation, guided by host Alex and guest expert Ton, promises a special focus on both technical and organizational perspectives crucial in the current industry trends.
• 03:30 - 07:30: Software-Defined Automation and IT/OT Convergence The chapter discusses the intersection of software-defined automation and IT/OT convergence. It begins with an introduction to a partner at BCG who has a rich background in mechanical engineering and a PhD in automation control. His professional experience lies in dealing with automation technology and software development for the shop floor. He describes his unique position working between the IT and operational technology (OT) domains, collaborating with various companies to enhance automation strategies.
• 07:30 - 10:30: Overcoming Challenges in IT/OT Integration The chapter discusses the experiences and insights of someone who has held various Chief Technology Officer (CTO) positions in the tech industry. After completing a PhD, they joined internet companies where they were heavily involved in the development of mobile applications. The focus is on the role of technology in integrating IT (Information Technology) and OT (Operational Technology) within various industries such as manufacturing and farming. The goal is to create future-ready architectures and designs that support industry growth and development.
• 10:30 - 16:30: Unified Namespace and Data Management This chapter delves into the importance and integration of unified namespace and data management in industrial control settings. It highlights the varied experiences in software stacks ranging from edge computing, industrial control technology, to backend and cloud computing. The chapter underscores a broad spectrum of languages and architectural patterns used to tackle various technological challenges, illustrating a wide technology scope. There is special emphasis on advancements in the automation control space, recognizing the substantial ongoing developments in this area.
• 16:30 - 24:00: BCG's Approach to Automation and Innovation This chapter discusses BCG's perspective on automation and innovation, emphasizing the transition towards a software-defined automation world. The conversation hints at developments in the automation market and emphasizes technologies like virtualization and DevOps on the shop floor. It also contrasts automation in traditional environments with advancements in mobile and cloud-native applications, suggesting a shift and significant changes in the automation landscape.
• 24:00 - 29:00: The Future of Manufacturing and Industry 4.0 This chapter discusses the concept of Software Defined Automation (SDA), exploring how it is increasingly becoming a part of the future manufacturing landscape. The term SDA, which may have been coined coincidentally by the speakers, represents the shift towards integrating software deeply into automation technologies. This transformation is also viewed from an economic perspective, indicating a significant trend towards software-centric approaches in the automation industry.
• 29:00 - 32:00: Closing Remarks and Contact Information In the final chapter titled 'Closing Remarks and Contact Information,' the discussion focuses on the convergence of operational technology (OT) and information technology (IT). The speakers emphasize the advantages of managing OT with the same strategies used for IT, particularly in terms of compute power utilization. They cite the concept of using a data center operating model for shop floor operations. The chapter concludes with the suggestion that integrating learnings from IT management into OT processes is beneficial for optimizing operations.

Pitching IT/OT Integration to Management w/ BCG | EP07 - The Connected Factory Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 hi this is Alex co-founder and CEO of the United manufacturing Hub and we are today here with another episode of the connected Factory podcast today we have as usual a very special guest with us timman timman is BCG and his partner there and there drives mainly the industry 4.0 topics and he is a technic guy so he is uh in the previous world he was also CTO and therefore can really translate this technical problems and
• 00:30 - 01:00 architecture challenges into business value and perhaps you can shave up some sentences that you can use to which y un ands is important to the management and yeah let's get straight into it hi ton great to have you here hi Alex nice having me it's actually really special episode for us because now we have like this technical podcast and now also like swirling in a little bit the the organizational aspects of what's really needed and I think you're really a great person to to talk about that can you
• 01:00 - 01:30 shed a little bit light where you're coming from so you know at BCG and what led you there sure happy to do so so um as you said so I'm a partner with BCG 10 years with a firm but my background is in mechanic and Engineering have a PhD in automation control so spent most of my time dealing with automation Tech and developing software on the shop floor and for the shop floor and actually I I live between the IT world and O world and um have the pleasure to um to work with a couple of of uh of companies out
• 01:30 - 02:00 of the manufacturing industry but also farmer industry and help them actually to do to develop future ready architectures and designs for their effect grow the Futures you have been CTO in the past yeah so you really in the trenches on technology what what what what did you do there exactly so I had various uh CTO like positions in in various tech companies after graduating my PhD I joined a couple of internet companies so at this time this was very much about how to develop mobile applications so before I gained
• 02:00 - 02:30 experience in industrial control technology so it's a pleasure to to gain different uh experiences with different type of software Stacks from today Edge Computing to Industrial control technology to backend technology cloud computing at the end a bro a broad spectrum of languages and Architectural pattern to to solve problems a really really Wide Technology scope that you actually have been exposed to so really I would say this perhaps a little bit dusted automation control space I think there happening a lot with
• 02:30 - 03:00 virtualization and devops also on the shop Flor but in contrast to mobile and Cloud native applications I think wi stretch so and what do you see there like in in the automation Market is it is something changing there or how do you see that space yeah AB absolutely um I think that both of us we we we also claim that say that automation Tech is turning into a software defined automation world as you said topics like virtualization container technology um building or Paving the way towards a
• 03:00 - 03:30 really software defined automation world where in future ter there's a company like that and and and who who founded the the term SDA did you did you settled on that with Yosef or not yet yeah I think it was a kind of coincident or both of us had some some thinking about uh this terminology at the end I thing it describes the the fact quite well right so everything is turning into software and that's also true for for automation technology and I think also from an economic point of view make
• 03:30 - 04:00 sense right because you have a much better utilization of your compute power if you are capable to manage your OT as you manage your it yeah I think at BCG we claim this sometimes also as a data center operating model for the shop floor because uh you can I think the OT word can also learn a lot from the it word so how we manage compute load in the it word if you try to think of this pattern and apply this to the operational technology it totally makes sense for sure sure we need to deal with
• 04:00 - 04:30 different latencies in the OT world than in the IT world but if you can overcome these challenges and I think it's technically feasible today there are great references and examples look what hening loser is doing with Audi for example in this regard it's doable yeah so the the future will be a software defined automation definitely and I really think there's I I had a little similar discussion with vuks a few podcasts back and he's also said this there's like so much free knowledge in the it space it can be just copied with
• 04:30 - 05:00 pride to automation so it's how we deploy software how do we package software how do we create high up times how do we harmonize so like or centralize firstly and then harmonize software and there's an often this I would say OT perspective on but it is built differently it's built for high user high volume and we are building for safety safety safety and reliability and this is of not an easy discussion but it's moving into each other I guess a agree
• 05:00 - 05:30 my my experience is that what what prevents companies from from really turning their automation or shop FL system into a software defined uh uh system is on the one hand side it's not as easy to deploy software in the OT word as in the IT world so this whole continuous development and deployment idea yeah I think which is like one of the the key sources to innovate at the speed of software which is really well known in the IT world
• 05:30 - 06:00 this is something we strive for in the OT world but the existing Network topologies you mention topics like cyber security yeah but we need to deploy let's say across different levels of edge gateways for example and this is way more complex than in the IT world but I'm fully convinced once we solve this problem we can really unlock a lot of potential and lot of value but as of now now based on our experience this is
• 06:00 - 06:30 really one of the key things which which prevents companies from from unlocking this value I think there's also some technology misuse perhaps a little bit too too harsh but it's like we want for example kubernetes on the shop for we want data streaming on the shop Flor we want like high availability on the shop Flor but then we want to have it air gapped we cannot have SS applications and like Cloud applications or like Cloud Technologies are not built in airap scenarios so you directly crank difficulty to super hard and there I
• 06:30 - 07:00 think there needs to be like a better like everything needs to be in my private container registry everything needs to be agap they can only like manage updates in that and that specific way and then you make everything so hard so it's it's also change management uh process on on Architects that needs to happen yeah yeah F fully agree fully agree and I think this is the one side the enabling platform that that that you need so like technology Cloud native on the shop floor scalable reliable
• 07:00 - 07:30 and also powerful for the future use cases and what's this is your take on that so how should you approach like and to pitch it to to your peers and your your co-workers that you need such kind of Technology when they're specifically more interested in the use case and the bottom or top line savings or up time yeah yeah yeah I think if if if someone is talking to the both of us so we are very enthusiastic in technology right so it depends as you said a little bit on the audience yeah um I think when you when you approach decision makers or sea
• 07:30 - 08:00 level people with all respect but I think they they they do not judge mainly on technology yeah so they really care about what kind of value you can unlock also how to scale certain use cases yeah so this is actually the kind of thinking which which drives their decision making and um so to to be clear I think it's not so much that you can convince these people with with a a seminar about uh industrial data management it's more
• 08:00 - 08:30 like you need to Showcase value leakages on the shop floor how you can solve dedicated problems how you can start automating things which you couldn't automate before and good and you need to to Showcase and give good reason why you are now capable to do this and once you are capable to communicate and to make this tangible that people really see and feel it then you can change also their perspective on certain things then there is a kind of willingness
• 08:30 - 09:00 first to give you time that you can explain yeah but then also to take decisions because if we as we discussed at the very beginning it's a very complex topic and normally you don't have time to explain in detail a complete architectural design and to to explain the pros and cons so we need to derive this actually first and foremost from a company strategy so the whole architectural design should also be in line with a company strategy because the company strategy also explain like your
• 09:00 - 09:30 ambition level yeah so how ambition are you when we talk about the Future Ready architecture what does this mean for you what kind of automation level are you are you striving for and then if this is in line with your with your business goals with your business strategy then we need to understand and clearly articulate what are the value leakages and translate these value leakages in concrete use cases and then out of the use cases we can derive technical requirements which we then design into a
• 09:30 - 10:00 proper architecture so this three level approach of having a clear strategy in mind which each and everyone in the company is is aware of and understands and is working in the same direction secondly unlock value leakages so really explain where the value is explain how to scale this to really unlock the full potential and then last but not least derive the technical requir ments on an
• 10:00 - 10:30 architectural design also way nicer to position this is the business goal this so ambition level we really want to have this this and this use case covered to take that value um from the table and therefore we need an high available architecture we need like an easy to deploy solution and I think this then resonates way better with with decision makers um which are not as technical as as you are and not zooming out like there's like not directly it's a recession all over the world specifically automo markets um what is
• 10:30 - 11:00 currently top of mind so there was this AI or there is this AI hype train still um not full steam I would say it's a bit down um but what is now currently top of mine perhaps is is is it that we actually need the data to power those AIS is it we need to have the right organization upscaling what what do you think is currently specifically in technology sector in industri it's top of M yeah so good question what I see at a couple of clients is most are all of them gained let's say experiences with
• 11:00 - 11:30 certain lighthouses right so they identified use cases they implemented the first use cases but there's also a little bit of a downside of this because the expectations of Industry 4.0 for example was way bigger than maybe the impact they can measure as of today and this brings us a little bit back to what we discussed previously the reason why they cannot scale is the missing underlying architecture to really deploy
• 11:30 - 12:00 software because it's not as easy as it sounds like hey we develop the famous predictive maintenance application and then we just press a button uh in the same manner as we download an application on our iPhone to deploy this into an architecture of your factory and this is something what people need to understand what it really takes to develop to manage to deploy to maintain software on the shop floor yeah and I really think it's also perhaps a change
• 12:00 - 12:30 of audience also that's needed I think this 2017 2016 this was the industry 4.0 hype train time where was with Full Steam and then was often push all later to the cloud and then all our problems are solved and then we build Solutions in the cloud and what I saw in the last years is actually the change in audience so it's not the data scientist that develops use cases it's actually often um like the maintenance guy the automation guy the electrician or whatever is who really exposed to the
• 12:30 - 13:00 shop FL problems who needs a tangible solution uh to really solve his own problems fast and this is really the enablement factor yeah this ISS where some architectural deviations or like reworks are currently under progress to really skill and enable those people rather than um just having it there and then the abstract data scientist will take care of all my problems there yeah I I I I agree and I think this is by the way also where where um where where you guys come into play with Your solution
• 13:00 - 13:30 because what we also see is it's on the one hand side you can invest the effort into building a first light house but over time you need also to Showcase that you have some that your approach scales so that you can benefit from economies of scale and but the difficulty in today's way how we Implement these Solutions is for example that if you developed one use case let's say a predictive maintenance use case which needs certain industrial data then you follow up with a Seto optimization use
• 13:30 - 14:00 case with a visual Quality Inspection use case and all of these use cases needs to have connectivity all of them needs to have industrial data so the way that you replicate again and again this complete let's say Plumping of industrial data to your application doesn't SC yeah yeah and I think this is also one of the reasons why um the effort is way too high today to do it so very strong economic reasons and um the
• 14:00 - 14:30 reason or the idea to establish something like a middleware in between which abstracts actually and exposes data to an overarching layer where you can connect to with your use cases I think it's exactly what what what's a missing piece yeah and it's also like like I said tied to economics it's like really getting the cost per use case down it's it's like one thing to like spend a lot of money on one digital Lighthouse but it has obviously huge
• 14:30 - 15:00 overhead and system integration attached but it's something to attack the long tail and specifically in the longtail of small small use cases and a wide wide stretch and a wide exposure there's actually the value to be found and therefore data needs to be a commodity so like electricity like pressured air in some Industries needs to be also data needs to be easily exposed and to be consumed and to be acted on and this is the unified name space peps and not it it could be a buzz word but I think it's
• 15:00 - 15:30 actually a good term um to describe what we're doing yeah it's it's something that's already been been out at the name and it's an event driven architecture and also on the shop floor and what what's your perceived uh perspective on the UniFi namespace is it is it something already resonates in the in the management spheres or is it to Niche yet well I think the term unified Nam space is maybe not so well known in the industry so you really need to talk more
• 15:30 - 16:00 to to very technical people that people are aware of this term and what it really means but if once you explain this so what is the benefit from it exactly as we tried to explain this previously yeah so that you can benefit from economies of scale and that you can lower down the implementation cost because you try to establish a kind of middleware unified name space for each and every application on top of it people start to understand and absolutely they see the value in it why because they experience how it is today
• 16:00 - 16:30 yeah and that kind of peer-to-peer architecture where you connect each and everything with each other you could also illustrate this quite nicely and quite easily yeah and make totally sense that a h and spoke architecture maybe makes more sense so with these easy illustrations of the current architectural design and the future architectural design you can convince people and um and at least make them think about okay the way how we approach it as of today maybe we need to rethink
• 16:30 - 17:00 this maybe there is something we need to take into consideration for sure it's let's say an additional level of complexity on a first grade because you introduce again another piece of software another middle uh uh middleware but um I think on the mid to long term it totally makes sense because it really helps you to to start scaling and deploying a use cases and one last word I think in many conversations in and in argumentation we focus very much on one
• 17:00 - 17:30 use case in one Factory but the reality at Large Scale companies or at Enterprise companies they need to manage hundreds of plants so it's a way bigger problem so if you explain like a really Enterprise company hey we really want to deploy an setb optimization use case you need to explain how you deploy this across 100 or 150 or 200 plants globally think of you need to do this manually that's impossible it needs to be elastic yeah so yeah even if you have like a
• 17:30 - 18:00 template or use case like the reality of the shop Flor that it's buil through merges and Acquisitions like it's so different so they could not even agree on an mes system in most cases so how should they agree on one API to power all the use cases so there needs to be this flexibility to really make it scal so beyond technicalities yeah one one important lever that then also in the mix that we as technical people also love to build yeah so like we have a problem that's thr architecture and components and more and more and more on
• 18:00 - 18:30 there and I think there was a little bit of a mind shift this build versus by approach should I now buit or buy it so such a middle what what what's your take as an Management Consultant on on on this yeah as always it depends so it's it's a little bit depends on the let's say DNA of the company there are companies out there who also in the past invested very much into their technical capabilities I personally know people in in in companies who who have absolutely the Technic skill sets to implement this
• 18:30 - 19:00 by themselves maybe these I I call them sometimes like the do-it-yourself type of companies who are capable maybe sometimes um use also or in favor of Open Source technology yeah so they are capable to do this but it's a huge Buck there are also companies who understands and and argue hey that's not core of our business we do not need to invest and build up these capabilities to do this by ourselves in the same way as you do not develop your own Microsoft Word or
• 19:00 - 19:30 PowerPoint application only because you use it every day so there's a good reason why you should rely on professional software So my answer would be it depends a little bit on the background of the company but uh I think the majority of the companies they would prefer actually to to use it as a service or to to to buy it or customers or inco coing customers who then learned like building softare once operating is it's another so you need to take care of of the dependencies to update the
• 19:30 - 20:00 patches and the that actually whenever you change something the rest doesn't fall apart and this is also annoying so like this is why we also put it open source so everybody can can work and and and use it but don't need to like have the longtail of of of of operating event so I think that is by the way a very smart move actually to to to put it open source and to build up a kind of a managed service business model around this because at the end this Universal name space is a is a kind of critical
• 20:00 - 20:30 infrastructure right because you really so you deal with industrial data so it's a kind of industrial Hub so people they need to trust you and I think the the best way to earn this trust is when you put actually your your business logic open source so that people really can can trace and track and understand like how you deal with with the data or what happens with the data let's put it like this so it's um it's a good move I think
• 20:30 - 21:00 the the open sour I think this shifted like when we started like four years ago we were actually mostly confronted with open sources dangerous open source is for the tinkerers open source is not something that you could rely on manufacturing on and this was I think a narrative no blame but this was what Microsoft did in the early 2000s where they had like this free GitHub acquisition uh campaign of against a liit open source but I think this changed like quite a lot because they see how much open source is running circles around commercial offerings in so much spaces because they're so much
• 21:00 - 21:30 faster and more open so I think this is a good and important shift and Beyond the commercial stuff like this community is something that's manufacturing so isolated so you have ideally perhaps your user forums like PLC forums perhaps you have once in a in a year like an a convention where you can meet up with other seens or backof users but there's not this open Channel and exchange of information like in open source communities and this is like the aspect so we are like pushing data and in
• 21:30 - 22:00 software so fast out expose it to so many people and this finds also like um feature requests some bugs some uh issues in using so a community that gives you feedback is also really really valuable and so now what what do you think does BCG makes difference or what they're like we can we come from an from the blue background if you want so so we worked quite a long time together with another Management Consulting in their factories and there is a critique
• 22:00 - 22:30 against those management consulting firms that they don't like get you all the way there they give you the Powerpoint slides with a lot of fancy boxes and then they're out so what what's the provoking question what will you do differently sure now I think we go um Beyond PowerPoint slides so just running example happy to invite you uh to our BCG automation Lab at Arch University which is part of our um ion Network so we operate 11 Innovation centers for operations globally in
• 22:30 - 23:00 partnership with with industry players like like AWS but also with with Academia and in these centers for example in Aran we actually build proof of physical proof of Concepts so um we support our clients in in engineering and implementation work um we mostly focus on let's say really cutting edge Solutions I can just give you an example we are very deep and very much into robotic applications as of now um so we buil physical proof of Concepts um to
• 23:00 - 23:30 automate for for example handling operations which are twoo vertile or complex for traditional automation uh Solutions and um once we build this Pro of concept and we ship it to the client so um at the line we integrate this also with the with solution integrators or with the help of the client into the line then in next step we would support in uh design to cost and design to Performance because normally after you've completed such a proof of concept
• 23:30 - 24:00 you showcase the technical feasibility of something but in the next step of development you need to twak on performance and cost of the solution again to scale it at the end and um I think we are a very good partner of choice for our customers and helping them along this way for sure after the industrialization phase when it comes to scaling and rolling this out this is something where we would hand over to a solution integrator because we are not a solution integrator so this is actually
• 24:00 - 24:30 where our engineering implementation work will end but it goes far beyond uh a PowerPoint presentation it's really attractive so you're really eating what you cook yeah if you want so so you you put something on a on a power point but then also like build it in the field understand the limitations and the challenges that arise on that and then also can tweak uh whatever you you post and our future offerings also take that into consideration I think is really really important to to see the real
• 24:30 - 25:00 world pains we this also our background so we coming from system integration we had a system integrator where we crouched to the dirty shop floors and laid cables and and saw the limitations on networks or limitations on power in some case and then specific s limitations on data availability and this gives another perspective on how you position software and advice people yeah yeah absolutely one last word so within BCG there are not only Consultants so um due to Acquisitions
• 25:00 - 25:30 and an strong investment into our digital capabilities we have more than thousand data scientists we have um hundreds of software Engineers solution Architects um and normally we build up really interdisciplinary teams consistent of strategic Consultants plus software Engineers data scientists solution Architects also this is like a the the typical BCG project as of now is really an heterogeneous team of of different skill sets position dick then now in the like Global landscape so we like
• 25:30 - 26:00 both from Germany Germany has a strong manufacturing background do you see there advantages or based on the current Trend disadvantages of of deriving offerings and software from that market I would love to see advantages yeah really but I think as of now so we we need to deal with uncertainty right now right so the geopolitical situation is is is is really um makes it not easy to to navigate in these times um yes overall I think within Germany we have a
• 26:00 - 26:30 very strong footprint in mechanic and Engineering in industrial control technology for sure we lack a little bit the capabilities when it comes to to compute power to to network infrastructure to there is no German or european cloud service provider as of now I stay absolutely optimistic I think we we can make it but the time is now yeah we we need to invest now we need to understand the importantance at the very beginning of our conversation we talked
• 26:30 - 27:00 about that everything is turning into software so we need to understand and we need to to derive the right decisions on this and invest also significant money into these topics to gain competitive advantages because what we I think also learned over time now is um that even in a in a global world where each and everyone is connected with each other there might be incidents where you need to build a very strong resilience and this could be a reason why that or a
• 27:00 - 27:30 good reason why we we should also invest into our own infrastructure this is like a really good bridge to one question that I have top of mind I would like try to answer ask as many guests as possible but what do you think changes now on the software landscape what's a classical stack and five years we look long Mees systems SC Systems what do you think will change or like being optimistic about implementation be and actually people to adapt but what what do you wish I think even in in 5 years time there will be a scatter system and and
• 27:30 - 28:00 and and Mees systems let's say at least for the discrete manufacturing industry I see where we see I think a huge shift also in scaling is in the farma industry because when we look into into new approaches if you look into therapy manufacturing which is nowadays let's say very laboratory oriented so it's more like a um lot size one business and if you want to scale the that's a great chance now really to to think of from a
• 28:00 - 28:30 green field like how do you scale and automate these processes and the existing let's say Enterprise science systems and let's say Mees systems for these type of businesses they are much more tailored for for laboratory environment but not for for large scale environments so I think these are kind of new markets which will um in this particular industry and I think this whole topic of bioengineering and pharmaceutical industry like huge um a
• 28:30 - 29:00 huge chance for also for existing players yeah to to conquer new market shares and I think this is also where currently there's so much growth also happening and even if the industrial sector in its whole is a little bit like shaking like the pharmaceutical industry is like growing as fast as as ever and even stronger than before so there will be a lot of change and they're not as effective obviously by by the cost pressure from from the overseas because they like their product and their value gets built quality and R&D so
• 29:00 - 29:30 manufacturing is something where they just need to execute FAS and flexible so and then one question that we had at the beginning so we talked a lot about what OT can learn from it to wrap it up so what do you think can it learn from OT good question I think like this um what you need on on on on the OT side is like um based on this cycle based pattern yeah on a on a PLC yeah in the OG world you you cannot deal with with likelihoods so you really need to rely
• 29:30 - 30:00 on the Strong deterministic Behavior and on the one hand side maybe this might be a disadvantage when it comes to artificial intelligence but on the other side there also very very strong argument yeah because deterministic Behavior at the end makes sure for example if you enter an elevator and you press level three you're not interested in a likelihood that you reach to level three it should always be that you come to level three yeah so this kind of deterministic behavior is maybe also something we we
• 30:00 - 30:30 could rely on in the in the it mode actually it's super interesting point because like when we talked about for example Kafka introducing as a streaming technology to some of our customers and it's like about cycle time what does Kafka guarantee on latencies for example it doesn't guarantee it optimizes across a certain like times period but could be that worst case 5 seconds and they're like oh no five but it just happens in once in the trillions of instances but could happen because it doesn't it's dist ministic and discreet so yeah this
• 30:30 - 31:00 is something that it needs to crack and where we are like the state machine Kings this is OT really really important learning to to get from there yeah but maybe it's also okay yeah that uh it is focusing on the one hand side and then OT on on other aspects yeah and this is uh then we need to work on the convergent of it and OT where both things actually come together and uh there's a good reason why you you have different pattern in the IT world than in the OT world but we need both of them
• 31:00 - 31:30 understanding for both sides I think the key key learning on the requirements and capabilities and then just come closer and don't consider the other side as the enemy either as a security threat or as the inflexible internal service provider yeah agree so if you're seeking like advice on those topic and really want to understand deeper on what the dority can offer be free to reach out to te and a team um this is a really really good so we also from from aw from AR so we know
• 31:30 - 32:00 what they're doing it's really really powerful and impressive but they have built up in the learning Factory so reach out to us reach out to him um and and leave him a visit if you're interested and that said Tim it was a really pleasure to have you on the podcast um as always super educated and precise opinions and I think super helpful for the audience out there thank you Alex and and team for having me what's a pleasure