In this insightful discussion by TVO Today, experts dive into the complex issue of reasonable accommodations for students, particularly those in post-secondary education. With mental health and differing abilities being prevalent concerns, the panel addressed the question of whether current accommodations are adequate and how they transition into the workforce. Key voices included clinical psychologist Allyson Harrison and human rights lawyer Catherine Peters, who shared their perspectives on the challenges facing both educators and students. The conversation delved into the implications of accommodations on students' future success and the balance needed to ensure fair treatment while preparing them for real-world challenges.
Highlights
The balance between making accommodations and ensuring students are ready for the real world is tricky. 🤔
High support in high school can lead to unrealistic expectations for accommodations in university. 🎒
Mental health crises are notable on campuses, necessitating better support systems. 🧠
Some accommodations could be seen as giving unfair advantages if not monitored. 📉
Helicopter parenting may deprive students of learning critical coping skills. 🚸
Key Takeaways
The balance between necessary accommodations and over-accommodating students remains a challenge. 🤔
Transitioning from high school to university can be tough due to varying levels of support. 🎒
Mental health issues on campuses require more attention and nuanced approaches. 🧠
There's a debate on whether accommodations may unintentionally hinder real-world preparedness. 🌍
Parents' tendencies to over-protect can limit students' coping skills. 🚸
Overview
In a riveting discussion on TVO Today, experts gathered to tackle the pressing issue of reasonable accommodations in post-secondary education. The topic is more relevant than ever, with mental health becoming a critical concern and students requiring different levels of support. The panel, including insights from clinical psychologist Allyson Harrison, highlighted the importance of finding the right balance between necessary accommodations and preparing students for the challenges of the real world. 🤔
One of the central themes was the transition from high school to university, where the expectations and support systems can vastly differ. Many students enter university expecting the same level of accommodation they've received in high school, leading to potential challenges. Mental health crises on campuses further complicate the matter, underscoring the need for robust support structures to ensure students' well-being and success. 🧠
The discussion also touched on the broader implications of accommodations, particularly as students move into the workforce. Concerns were raised that extensive accommodations might leave some students ill-prepared for the demands of real-life scenarios. This conversation opened up a dialogue on finding a balance between supporting students and fostering independence, providing a comprehensive look at this complex issue. 🌍
Chapters
00:00 - 00:30: Introduction The chapter introduces the main themes and objectives of the book. It sets the stage for the concepts and ideas that will be elaborated in the subsequent chapters. It discusses the context and background that led to writing this book and provides a brief overview of the key topics that will be covered. The introduction aims to engage the reader by highlighting the significance and relevance of the subject matter, preparing them for a detailed exploration in the chapters that follow.
00:30 - 06:00: Setting the Stage: Expectations and Accommodations The chapter titled 'Setting the Stage: Expectations and Accommodations' introduces the primary goal of ensuring student success. It highlights the shared desire among educators, administrators, and parents for students to thrive in their academic pursuits. The discussion likely focuses on outlining the necessary expectations and accommodations required to facilitate an effective learning environment where all students can achieve their full potential.
06:00 - 34:00: Discussion with the Experts In the chapter titled 'Discussion with the Experts', the narrative focuses on the crucial roles played by teachers, parents, and students themselves in the educational process. The transcript highlights the importance of each group's contribution to achieving successful educational outcomes.
34:00 - 58:00: Individual Challenges and System Response This chapter discusses the various challenges faced by students who require accommodations due to different abilities and mental health issues. It explores the systemic responses to these challenges within educational institutions, highlighting the importance of support and adaptation to meet student needs.
58:00 - 85:30: The Workplace and Future Concerns The chapter begins with a focus on the transition students make from high school to the workforce, highlighting the increased stress levels encountered in professional environments.
85:30 - 93:00: Conclusion and Closing Thoughts This chapter discusses the expectations and reception of accommodations in post-secondary education. It raises questions about what students in higher education should anticipate in terms of support and how institutions address these needs. The chapter provides insights into balancing student expectations with institutional capabilities in delivering appropriate accommodations.
Reasonable Accommodation? Transcription
00:00 - 00:30
00:30 - 01:00 >> Steve: EVERYONE WANTS
STUDENTS TO SUCCEED.
01:00 - 01:30 TEACHERS, PARENTS AND THE
STUDENTS THEMSELVES ALL HAVE A
PART TO PLAY, ESPECIALLY FOR
01:30 - 02:00 STUDENTS WHO NEED ACCOMMODATING
FOR DIFFERING ABILITIES AND
MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES.
02:00 - 02:30 BUT WHEN STUDENTS LEAVE HIGH
SCHOOL BEHIND FOR THE EVEN MORE
STRESSFUL ENVIRONMENT OF
02:30 - 03:00 POST-SECONDARY LEARNING, SHOULD
THEY EXPECT, AND RECEIVE, THE
SAME LEVEL OF ACCOMMODATION?
03:00 - 03:30 AND DOES SUCH ASSISTANCE HELP
WITH WHAT'S BEEN CALLED A MENTAL
HEALTH CRISIS ON UNIVERSITY
04:30 - 05:00 DIRECTOR OF THE REGIONAL
ASSESSMENT & RESOURCE CENTRE AT
QUEEN'S UNIVERSITY;
05:00 - 05:30 CATHERINE PETERS, HUMAN RIGHTS
LAWYER AT HICKS MORLEY;
MOHSAN BEG, CLINICAL
05:30 - 06:00 PSYCHOLOGIST AND DIRECTOR OF THE
STUDENT COUNSELLING CENTRE,
UNIVERSITY OF WINDSOR;
06:00 - 06:30 AND WE WELCOME BACK,
HARA ESTROFF MARANO, EDITOR AT
LARGE OF<i> PSYCHOLOGY TODAY.</i>
06:30 - 07:00 AND I WANT TO THANK, FIRST OF
ALL, WE'VE GOT FOUR NEW PEOPLE
ON THIS PROGRAM WHO HAVE NEVER
07:00 - 07:30 BEEN ON BEFORE.
07:30 - 08:00 THAT'S GREAT.
08:00 - 08:30 I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR MAKING
THE LONG DRIVE FROM WINDSOR AND
YOU COMING IN FROM KINGSTON AND
08:30 - 09:00 YOU JUST CAME FROM DOWN THE
STREET, RIGHT?
09:00 - 09:30 BUT YOU CAME FROM NEW YORK, SO
THAT'S PRETTY COOL TOO.
09:30 - 10:00 JUST BEFORE WE DIVE IN HERE, YOU
ALL HEARD HARA IN THE LAST
SEGMENT, AND I WANT TO GET A
10:00 - 10:30 SENSE ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK OF
HOW THINGS ARE ON YOUR CAMPUS
VERSUS THE WAY YOU HEARD IT
10:30 - 11:00 DESCRIBED OVER HERE.
11:00 - 11:30 ALLYSON, START US OFF.
11:30 - 12:00 >> Allyson Harrison: WELL, IT
WAS INTERESTING LISTENING
BECAUSE THE CENTRE AT WHICH I
12:00 - 12:30 WORK, WE PROVIDE SUPPORT
SERVICES TO STUDENTS AT ALL
COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES IN THE
12:30 - 13:00 SOUTH HALF OF THE PROVINCE.
13:00 - 13:30 SO I GET TO SEE IT, NOT JUST AT
QUEEN'S, BUT AT LOTS OF
DIFFERENT INSTITUTIONS, AND I
13:30 - 14:00 WOULD SAY WE'RE SEEING MORE AND
MORE STUDENTS ACROSS THE
PROVINCE WHO ARE HAVING MORE
14:00 - 14:30 DIFFICULTY WITH COPING WITH
EMOTIONS.
14:30 - 15:00 THEY HAVE -- I AGREE.
15:00 - 15:30 THEY HAVE NO STRESS TOLERANCE
WHATSOEVER.
15:30 - 16:00 THEY HAVE NO DISTRESS TOLERANCE,
IS WHAT YOU SAID.
16:00 - 16:30 AND SO IT MAKES IT REALLY
DIFFICULT.
16:30 - 17:00 IF YOU'VE NEVER LEARNED HOW TO
COPE WITH REALLY SMALL
DISAPPOINTMENTS AND SMALL
17:00 - 17:30 STRESSES, THEN ONCE YOU COME TO
UNIVERSITY AND THE STAKES ARE
HIGHER, EVERYTHING JUST FEELS
17:30 - 18:00 LIKE IT'S A CRISIS AND EVEN IF
IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE MIGHT SAY
IS SMALL.
18:00 - 18:30 >> Steve: WHAT'S THE STORY IN
WINDSOR?
18:30 - 19:00 >> Mohsan Beg: WELL, AT
WINDSOR, I WAS THE DIRECTOR OF
THE COUNSELLING CENTRE THERE.
19:00 - 19:30 WE'RE IN THE TRENCHES, WORKING
WITH STUDENTS WHO ARE COMING IN.
19:30 - 20:00 THE 15 YEARS I'VE BEEN THERE,
DEFINITELY THERE'S BEEN AN
INCREASE NOT ONLY IN THE VOLUME
20:00 - 20:30 BUT ALSO THE SEVERITY OF
PROBLEMS THAT WE'RE SEEING.
20:30 - 21:00 I THINK PART OF THE -- PART OF
THE ISSUE IS WHAT HARA WAS
TALKING ABOUT, THIS DIFFICULTY
21:00 - 21:30 WITH BEING ABLE TO COPE AND
HANDLE DISCOMFORT, ALL RIGHT?
21:30 - 22:00 BUT I ALSO THINK THERE'S A KIND
OF WIDER ISSUE WITH RESPECT TO
STUDENTS THAT ARE COMING IN.
22:00 - 22:30 IT'S KIND OF SYMPTOMATIC GOING
ON OUTSIDE THE UNIVERSITY.
22:30 - 23:00 IF YOU LOOK AT CLAIMS IN THE
WORKPLACE, THE VAST MAJORITY ARE
MENTAL HEALTH.
23:00 - 23:30 I THINK THERE'S A PUBLIC HEALTH
ISSUE THAT'S ALSO BEING
REFLECTED ON CAMPUS AS WE ARE A SEGMENT OF SOCIETY. >> Steve: MORE AWARENESS? >> Mohsan Beg: THERE'S MORE
STIGMA REDUCTION, WHICH IS LIKE
HARA WAS SAYING, IT'S GOOD THAT PEOPLE ARE COMING AND SEEKING
OUT HELP. >> Hara Estroff Marano: AND
STUDENTS ARE VERY ACTIVE IN
WANTING THAT DISCUSSION.
23:30 - 24:00 >> Mohsan Beg: AND I THINK
THEY'RE USED TO IT TOO. THEY'RE COMING OUT OF HIGH
SCHOOL, OR EVEN ELEMENTARY
SCHOOL, ACCESSING MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES OR COUNSELLING AND
THEY'RE COMING IN, RIGHT? BUT I THINK THE IMPORTANT POINT
IS THAT UNIVERSITIES ARE TAXED,
RIGHT, IN TERMS OF TRYING TO MEET THIS DEMAND. EVEN LEAVING, COMING HERE, WE'RE
IN THE MIDST OF EXAMS COMING UP. END OF SEMESTER. THIS IS OUR BUSIEST TIME OF
YEAR. YOU'RE LOOKING AT WAITING LISTS
OF UP TO THREE, FOUR WEEKS.
24:00 - 24:30 >> Steve: WHEN YOU SAY BUSIEST
TIME OF YEAR, YOU MEAN FOR YOUR
SERVICE -- >> Mohsan Beg: EXACTLY. FOR THE NEEDS OF THE STUDENTS
COMING IN. >> Steve: WHAT'S YOUR SENSE --
OBVIOUSLY YOU DON'T WORK AT A
UNIVERSITY NOW BUT YOUR UNIVERSITY EXPERIENCE IS NOT
THAT FAR IN THE REAR VIEW MIRROR
AND YOU'VE HEARD WHAT OTHERS HAVE TO SAY. >> Catherine Peters: CERTAINLY
THE SIDE THAT I SEE OF IT ARE
THE COMPLEX CASES THAT ARE REALLY PROVING CHALLENGING FOR
UNIVERSITIES TO HANDLE. THERE'S NO QUESTION, I THINK,
THAT THERE HAS BEEN AN UPTICK,
BOTH IN UNIVERSITY ENVIRONMENTS
24:30 - 25:00 AND IN EMPLOYMENT ENVIRONMENTS,
BECAUSE I'M ALSO AN EMPLOYMENT
LAWYER, IN THE RANGE AND COMPLEXITY OF ACCOMMODATION
ISSUES THAT ARISE, AND IN MENTAL
HEALTH ISSUES IN PARTICULAR. IT'S DIFFICULT FOR ME TO SAY,
I'M NOT AN EDUCATOR, BUT
CERTAINLY I DO THINK THAT THE FACT THAT THERE'S MORE AWARENESS
AROUND THESE ISSUES, THAT PEOPLE
DO FEEL MORE COMFORTABLE BRINGING FORWARD THE CONCERNS
THAT THEY'RE EXPERIENCING, COULD
CERTAINLY BE DRIVING SOME OF THE NUMBERS. BUT CERTAINLY WHAT I HEAR FROM
ACADEMIC ADMINISTRATORS TIME AND
TIME AGAIN IS THEY DO PERCEIVE THAT THE CURRENT GENERATION OF
STUDENTS ARE MORE STRESSED, FOR
WHATEVER REASON, THAN THOSE WHO
25:00 - 25:30 CAME BEFORE. >> Steve: WELL, ALLYSON, I
READ THE TITLE OF HARA'S BOOK,
AND THE SUGGESTION THERE SEEMS TO BE THAT WE'VE GOT A CONTINENT
OF PARENTS HERE THAT HAVE
NURTURED A WHOLE GENERATION OF WIMPS. DOES IT LOOK THAT WAY TO YOU? >> Allyson Harrison: WELL, I
THINK NOT ALL OF THEM ARE LIKE
THAT, BUT I THINK WE HAVE A LOT MORE PARENTS, AS HARA WAS
SAYING, WHO, THEY DON'T WANT
THEIR CHILDREN TO FAIL. THEY'RE SO AFRAID OF HAVING
THEIR CHILDREN FAIL. AND ALSO, THEY DON'T WANT THEIR
KIDS TO GO THROUGH THE SAME
STRESSES AND HEARTACHES AND
25:30 - 26:00 FRUSTRATIONS THEY DID. SO THEY WANT TO, AS HARA WAS
SAYING, THEY WANT TO SMOOTH THE
ROAD. BUT WHAT'S HAPPENED, AND YOU
TALK ABOUT THIS IN YOUR BOOK, IS
THEY'VE RAISED THEM IN THIS HOT HOUSE OR THIS GREENHOUSE. THEY'VE GOT -- THEY HAVE NEVER
BEEN BUFFETED BY WIND OR RAIN OR
BAD CONDITIONS, AND ANYONE WHO IS A GARDENER KNOWS, IF YOU TAKE
A PLANT OUT OF THAT AND STICK IT
OUTSIDE, IT'S GOING TO GET SUNBURN AND DAY WITHIN A DAY
BECAUSE IT HAS NO HARDINESS.
26:00 - 26:30 I SEE A LOT MORE STUDENTS WHO
DON'T HAVE THAT HARDINESS AND
PARENTS, BY TRYING TO HELP THEM, DON'T -- I DON'T KNOW IF YOU
WANT AN EXAMPLE. BUT I HAD ONE STUDENT THIS YEAR
WHOSE DAD REALLY WANTED THE BEST
FOR HIM AND HAD SOLD HIS HOUSE AND WAS GOING TO MOVE TO WHERE
HIS SON WAS GOING TO SCHOOL, AND
AS HE WAS GOING TO MAKE SURE HE GOT OFF ON TIME AND HE WAS GOING
TO DO HIS LAUNDRY FOR HIM AND HE
WAS GOING TO MAKE HIS MEALS -- >> Steve: WHAT? >> DONE THIS FOR YEARS --
>> WE HAVE PARENTS WHO WANT TO
LIVE IN RESIDENCE WITH THEIR
26:30 - 27:00 KIDS, THEY DRIVE TWO AND A HALF
HOURS TO DO THEIR LAUNDRY, HELP
THEM WITH THEIR HOMEWORK, COOK THEIR MEALS. DO EVERYTHING. >> Steve: YOU'RE NOT KIDDING
HERE? >> Allyson Harrison: I'M NOT
KIDDING HERE. >> Hara Estroff Marano:
THERE'S AN OLYMPIC SOCCER
TRAINING PROGRAM IN THE UNITED STATES. THEIR PARENTS WON'T LEAVE THE
SOCCER CAMP WHEN THEY DROP THEM
OFF. >> Allyson Harrison: ANYWAY,
THIS WAS HAPPENING. AND IT TURNED OUT, HE SAID, I
HAVE TO DO THIS BECAUSE HE CAN'T
FAIL.
27:00 - 27:30 I DON'T WANT HIM TO FAIL. I SAID I REALLY DON'T MEAN THIS
BADLY BUT WHAT HAPPENS, IF GOD
FORBID, YOU GET HIT BY A BUS TOMORROW, HOW IS HE GOING TO
LEARN HOW TO DO THIS STUFF BY
HIMSELF? OH, I NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT. THE FATHER HAD GONE THROUGH THE
SAME STRESSES IN COLLEGE AND HAD
FAILED IN FIRST YEAR. AND HE SAID THAT'S WHAT CHANGED
MY LIFE AND MADE ME WORK HARDER
AND GET THROUGH. I SAID, HOLD ON. YOU'RE TELLING ME THAT WAS THE
THING THAT HELPED YOU SUCCEED,
BUT YOU AREN'T GOING TO LET -- >> Steve: DEPRIVE YOUR SON OF
THAT.
27:30 - 28:00 >> Allyson Harrison: IT WAS
HARD. I KNOW IT WAS HARD. THAT ACTUALLY HELPED YOU LEARN
HOW TO COPE. WHAT IS IT? YOU GET KILLED BY KINDNESS. YOU'RE TRYING SO HARD TO MAKE
SURE THEY DON'T EVER HAVE ANY
STRESSES, THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO COPE WITH ANYTHING. >> Steve: I WANT TO PUT A
SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT ISSUE ON THE
TABLE HERE. TO DO THAT, WE'RE GOING TO QUOTE
HERE FROM THE JOURNAL OF
POSTSECONDARY EDUCATION AND DISABILITY. THIS IS FROM A COUPLE OF YEARS
AGO. GO AHEAD, SHELDON. LET'S BRING THIS UP.
28:00 - 28:30 >> Steve: MOHSAN, IS THERE A
CONNECTION HERE? >> Mohsan Beg: I THINK THERE'S
DEFINITELY, AS WE WERE TALKING
ABOUT, WHEN YOU ARE SEEING STUDENTS WHO ARE NOW COMING
THROUGH THE SYSTEM, MAY BE
ACCOMMODATED AND THEY'RE USED TO
28:30 - 29:00 THAT. THE ACCOMMODATION IS ALMOST SEEN
AS A RIGHT. SOMETIMES WHEN YOU HAVE PEOPLE
COME IN AND THEY'RE ASKING FOR
THOSE TYPES OF ACCOMMODATION. OKAY, I NEED TO HAVE THIS. SOMETIMES THEY'RE NOT BASED ON
DATA. THERE HASN'T BEEN A FORMAL
ASSESSMENT DONE OR THEY'RE
LOOKING AT -- YOU KNOW, AND I THINK IN OUR OFFICE, WE DON'T
PROVIDE ACCOMMODATIONS. WE MAY MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS FOR
ACCOMMODATIONS, RIGHT? BUT OUR GOAL IS TO SAY: WHAT'S
THE BEST WAY, AND IDEALLY, IF WE
CAN, WITH PEOPLE SUFFERING FROM,
29:00 - 29:30 SAY, ANXIETY OR DEPRESSION, HOW
DO WE GIVE THEM THE SKILL SET,
HOW DO WE TREAT AND BUILD IN REMEDIATION SO THEY DON'T NEED
THE ACCOMMODATIONS. >> Steve: DO YOU TEND TO LEAN
TOWARDS RECOMMENDING
ACCOMMODATIONS. >> Mohsan Beg: I THINK ONLY
WHEN IT'S APPROPRIATE. FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN WE'RE TALKING
ABOUT MENTAL ILLNESS. FOR EXAMPLE, WE KNOW THIS IS THE
AGE GROUP WHERE SEVERE MENTAL
ILLNESS EMERGES, BIPOLAR DISORDER, SCHIZOPHRENIA. IN THOSE CASES, IN TERMS OF
HELPING THEM MANAGE AN ILLNESS,
ABSOLUTELY WE CAN MAKE THOSE
29:30 - 30:00 RECOMMENDATIONS OR
ACCOMMODATIONS. >> Steve: CATHERINE, DO YOU
HAVE A VIEW ON WHAT IT'S
APPROPRIATE TO ACCOMMODATE THESE DIFFERENT SITUATIONS AND WHEN
IT'S NOT? >> Catherine Peters: I GUESS
WHAT I WOULD SAY ABOUT THAT IS
TO ME IT'S NOT REALLY A QUESTION OF WHETHER BUT HOW, BECAUSE
ACADEMIC INSTITUTIONS IN
ONTARIO, IN CANADA, DO HAVE A DUTY TO ACCOMMODATE INDIVIDUALS
WHO HAVE DISABILITY-RELATED
NEEDS. THEY DO HAVE PROCESSES IN PLACE,
HOWEVER. I MEAN, SOMETIMES I HEAR
RHETORIC THAT SORT OF SUGGESTS
THAT ACCOMMODATIONS ARE HANDED
30:00 - 30:30 OUT MUCH LIKE CANDY, AND I KNOW
SOME PEOPLE HAVE THAT
PERCEPTION. BUT THE VAST MAJORITY OF
ACADEMIC INSTITUTIONS THAT I
DEAL WITH HAVE QUITE RIGOROUS PROCESSES FOR AT LEAST THOSE
COMPLEX CASES WHERE THE NEEDS
ARE NOT CLEAR AND THERE NEEDS TO PERHAPS BE A LITTLE DEEPER DIVE
INTO MEDICAL INFORMATION, AS AN
EXAMPLE. THEY DO HAVE RIGOROUS PROCESSES
TO TRY AND DETERMINE WHETHER OR
NOT THOSE ACCOMMODATIONS ARE, IN FACT, NEEDED. >> Steve: WHAT'S YOUR VIEW,
HARA, ON REASONABLE
ACCOMMODATION? >> Hara Estroff Marano: WELL,
I'M -- I HAVE NO OBLIGATION TO A
UNIVERSITY OR THE LEGAL CODE, SO
30:30 - 31:00 I SAY BLOW THE WHOLE THING UP. NO, JOKINGLY. IN A WAY, THAT'S WHAT I MEAN. I WANT TO GO BACK TO A COMMENT
THAT MOHSAN MADE. EVERY YEAR MORE AND MORE -- YOU
CITED THE FIGURE 67%. SOONER OR LATER, 67% INCREASE IS
GOING TO BE 100% OF YOUR STUDENT
POPULATION.
31:00 - 31:30 WE'RE USING A MODEL OF ONE
STUDENT COMES IN, YOU
ACCOMMODATE THEM, YOU TREAT THEM. MAYBE THAT IS NOT THE MOST
APPROPRIATE MODEL FOR A
UNIVERSITY. MAYBE WE SHOULD JUST SORT OF
CALM DOWN AND SAY, "HEY, WAIT. LET'S ANALYSE THIS." AND MAYBE WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS
SAY, OKAY, WE'VE GOT A LOT OF
STUDENTS COMING IN. A LOT OF THEM DON'T HAVE THE
EMOTION, COPING SKILLS FOR
UNIVERSITY.
31:30 - 32:00 EVERYTHING'S A CRISIS. THEY BREAK DOWN ON WHATEVER
FAULT LINE THEY HAPPEN TO BE
PREDISPOSED TO AND HAVE THEIR PSYCHOTIC BREAK OR MANIC EPISODE
OR WHAT HAVE YOU. I'M NOT BELITTLING THIS. THIS IS REAL. BUT MAYBE WE CAN PREVENT THIS. MAYBE THE UNIVERSITY, WITH ITS
ABILITY TO EDUCATE AND USE ITS
CURRICULUM AND EXTRACURRICULAR
32:00 - 32:30 AVAILABILITY, CAN TAKE A
DIFFERENT APPROACH RATHER THAN
BUILDING BIG BUCKETS AND CATCHING EACH PERSON
INDIVIDUALLY, MAYBE IT SHOULD BE
DELIVERING THE SKILLS THAT UNFORTUNATELY A GENERATION OF
PARENTS HAS NOT FULLY IMPARTED
TO THEIR KIDS. >> Steve: UNDERSTOOD. ALLYSON, LET ME DO A LITTLE Q
AND A WITH YOU HERE BECAUSE I
WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT YOUR RESOURCE CENTRE AT QUEEN'S DOES.
32:30 - 33:00 START THERE. WHAT'S ITS MISSION? >> Allyson Harrison: SO OUR
MISSION IS TO PROVIDE
PSYCHOEDUCATIONAL AND NEUROPSYCHOLOGICAL ASSESSMENTS
TO STUDENTS WHO ARE ACCEPTED
INTO ANY POSTSECONDARY INSTITUTION IN THE PROVINCE FROM
OTTAWA AND BARRIE DOWN. AND THEN THERE'S A NORTHERN
CENTRE THAT DOES THE NORTHERN
HALF OF THE PROVINCE. WE DO THAT. WE DO TRAINING AND EDUCATION OF
PROFESSIONALS, SO MOHSAN IS
SOMEONE WHO COMES TO CONFERENCES AND DOES WORK FOR US. WE ALSO DO RESEARCH AND
TEACHING.
33:00 - 33:30 AND WE SEE A LOT MORE STUDENTS
NOW COMING TO US, HAVING BEEN
ACCOMMODATED ALL THROUGH SCHOOL, AND THE QUESTION IS: WHAT'S A
REASONABLE ACCOMMODATION NOW? >> Steve: LET'S DO AN EXAMPLE
OF THAT. GIVE US AN EXAMPLE OF SOMEBODY
WHO COMES TO YOU AND SAYS I NEED
AN ACCOMMODATION FOR X, Y, AND Z. WHAT IS IT? >> Allyson Harrison: IT CAN
VARY. BUT WHAT HAPPENS IS THAT, IN THE
HIGH SCHOOL -- IN THE HIGH
SCHOOL SYSTEM, THE GOAL OF ACCOMMODATION HAS BECOME TO MAKE
SURE YOU PASS. TO MAKE SURE YOU SUCCEED.
33:30 - 34:00 AND SO, UNFORTUNATELY, A LOT OF
PARENTS AND STUDENTS DON'T
UNDERSTAND THAT THE HUMAN RIGHTS LEGISLATION THAT APPLIES TO
COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES
DOESN'T GUARANTEE THAT YOU WILL PASS BECAUSE YOU GOT AN
ACCOMMODATION. ALL IT SAYS IS, YOU GET THE
OPPORTUNITY TO GET TO THE
STARTING LINE WITH EVERYONE ELSE, SO THERE WILL BE NO
IMPEDIMENT TO YOU PARTICIPATING
EQUALLY. BUT THERE'S NOTHING THAT SAYS
THAT ONCE YOU'RE THERE, YOU HAVE
TO PASS. >> Steve: HOW DO YOU KNOW IF
THEY NEED IT OR IF THEY'RE JUST
LOOKING FOR A LEG UP ON EVERYBODY ELSE?
34:00 - 34:30 >> Allyson Harrison: WELL,
WHEN MY CRYSTAL BALL COMES IN,
I'LL TELL YOU. BUT THAT'S I THINK THE BIG
QUESTION THAT GETS ASKED OF US
ALL THE TIME, IS HOW CAN YOU JUSTIFY THAT THIS IS FAIR TO
THESE STUDENTS AND NOT OTHER
STUDENTS, AND SOMETIMES THAT'S DIFFICULT BECAUSE SOMETIMES YOU
DO HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE ASKING
FOR THINGS THAT DON'T SEEM LIKE THEY'RE SUPPORTED BY, AS MOHSAN
SAID, DON'T SEEM LIKE THEY'RE
SUPPORTED BY ANY DATA, THEY'RE JUST MEANT TO SURE YOU GET A LEG
UP OR SUCCEED.
34:30 - 35:00 >> Steve: WANT TO GIVE US AN
EXAMPLE OF THE MOST EGREGIOUS
ONE YOU'VE HEARD TO DATE? YOU PROBABLY DON'T. I WANT YOU TO ANYWAY. >> NO NAMES. >> Allyson Harrison: OH, NO, I
WON'T GIVE NAMES. WELL, THERE WAS A STUDENT A
NUMBER OF YEARS AGO WHO HAD BEEN
GIVEN UNLIMITED TIME FOR ALL HER TESTS AND EXAMS IN HIGH SCHOOL
AND WANTED THAT AT UNIVERSITY,
AND SO -- >> Steve: UNLIMITED TIME. >> Allyson Harrison: UNLIMITED
TIME. >> Steve: BECAUSE ... >> Allyson Harrison: WELL,
BECAUSE A PSYCHOLOGIST HAD SAID
THAT SHE HAD A LEARNING
35:00 - 35:30 DISABILITY. SOMETIMES SHE COULD TAKE A MONTH
TO DO A TEST. SO SHE -- AND THIS IS ALL IN THE
PUBLIC DOMAIN BECAUSE THERE WAS
A CASE THAT WAS BROUGHT TO HUMAN RIGHTS, BUT MY UNDERSTANDING IS
THAT EVENTUALLY WHAT HAPPENED IS
SHE SAID, WELL, I'LL JUST TAKE IT -- A THREE-HOUR TEST IN THREE
12-HOUR SEGMENTS. WELL, YOU KNOW, TO ME, DEPENDING
ON WHAT YOU WANT TO DO, THERE
ARE A LOT OF PLACES WHERE YOU JUST CAN'T HAVE -- I MEAN, IF
I'M A LAWYER, I CAN'T SAY I'M
BILLING BY THE HOUR AND I GET
35:30 - 36:00 UNLIMITED TIME. >> Steve: RIGHT. IT DOESN'T QUITE WORK THAT WAY. >> Catherine Peters: THAT'S
ALSO A CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF A
COMPLEX CASE WHERE THERE ARE STRATEGIES AVAILABLE TO DEAL
WITH SITUATIONS LIKE THAT. >> Allyson Harrison: HE ASKED
FOR THE MOST EGREGIOUS. >> Catherine Peters: EXACTLY. THOSE ARE SOMETIMES THE KIND OF
CASES THAT END IN DISPUTES
BECAUSE THAT REQUEST IS SO FAR OUT OF THE BOX AND PROBABLY THE
MEDICAL INFORMATION ON WHICH
IT'S BASED IS SUBJECT TO SOME
36:00 - 36:30 PROBING SCRUTINY, AND YOU DO
FIND --
>> Steve: DID YOU ASSENT TO THAT --
>> Allyson Harrison: IT WASN'T
OUR UNIVERSITY. BUT WHAT WE SEE, AND I'M SURE
YOU SEE THIS TOO, WE SEE A LOT
MORE STUDENTS WHO HAVE BEEN GIVEN DOUBLE TIME AND CHEAT
SHEETS FOR ALL THEIR TESTS AND
EXAMPLES, AND AGAIN, WE'LL SEE PEOPLE WHO ARE GIVEN CHEAT
SHEETS FOR ALL THEIR TESTS, EVEN
THOUGH THERE'S NOTHING WRONG
36:30 - 37:00 WITH THEIR MEMORY. THEN IT BECOMES A QUESTION OF,
IS THAT -- AN ACCOMMODATION IS
SUPPOSED TO GIVE YOU AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO PARTICIPATE. IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO TILT IN
YOUR FAVOUR SO THAT IT ENSURES
YOU'RE GOING TO DO BETTER OR THAT YOU'LL SUCCEED. >> Hara Estroff Marano: THAT'S
WHY I THINK WE SHOULD MAKE THE
STARTING LINE FAIR FOR EVERYBODY AND EVERYBODY COMING IN SHOULD
BE EXPOSED IN SOME WAY THAT
SCHOOLS EXPLORE TO FIND
37:00 - 37:30 EFFECTIVE BUT THEY SHOULD ALL BE
INSTRUCTED IN SOME WAY WITH THE
SKILLS THAT THEY DON'T HAVE AND ALL BEEN BROUGHT UP TO SPEED. YOU KNOW, ARMIES ACROSS THE
WORLD HAVE TO DEAL WITH THIS ALL
THE TIME, AND THEY HAVE BASIC TRAINING. PEOPLE COME IN WITH VERY
DIFFERENT SKILLS, BUT THEY ALL
HAVE TO BE ABLE TO FUNCTION -- >> Steve: NO, I HEAR YOU,
HARA, BUT IF, FOR EXAMPLE, IT
WAS A STUDENT WHO WAS A QUADRIPLEGIC, FOR EXAMPLE, AND
YOU WOULD SAY THIS STUDENT NEEDS
SOME ACCOMMODATING BECAUSE HE OR SHE CAN'T TYPE LIKE ANYBODY ELSE
TO DO THEIR ESSAYS.
37:30 - 38:00 THAT'S A REASONABLE
ACCOMMODATION, WOULDN'T IT BE? >> Hara Estroff Marano:
ABSOLUTELY. >> Steve: IN THAT CASE. >> Hara Estroff Marano: AND
BLINDS STUDENTS HAVE
ACCOMMODATIONS, OF COURSE. >> Mohsan Beg: FOR EXAMPLE,
SOMETHING LIKE TEST ANXIETY,
RIGHT? >> Steve: TEST ANXIETY. >> Mohsan Beg: FOR EXAMPLE, IF
YOU'RE SAYING, I GET SO ANXIOUS
ON THE TEST THAT I CAN'T RECALL THE INFORMATION, I CAN'T
REMEMBER WHAT I STUDIED. YOU KNOW, THE QUESTION IS, DOES
THAT NECESSARILY NEED TO BE
ACCOMMODATED FOR THE FOUR YEARS THEY'RE AT UNIVERSITY? >> Steve: WHAT'S THE ANSWER? >> Mohsan Beg: IT'S A
TREATABLE CONDITION. WE'LL RECOMMEND AT OUR END
INTERIM ACCOMMODATIONS FOR A
SEMESTER WHILE YOU GET
38:00 - 38:30 TREATMENT. BECAUSE IT'S VERY TREATABLE. I DON'T THINK YOU'RE DOING THE
PERSON ANY FAVOURS BY SAYING
DON'T PARTICIPATE IN ANY TREATMENT AND DON'T, IN TERMS OF
RESOLVE THE ISSUE, BUT FOR FOUR
YEARS YOU CAN HAVE THIS ONGOING ACCOMMODATION. LET'S TREAT THE TEST ANXIETY SO
YOU DON'T HAVE TO NECESSARILY
FEEL ANXIOUS. >> Hara Estroff Marano: AND
THE TREATMENT IS IMPARTING THE
SKILL TO DEAL WITH THE ANXIETY. >> Mohsan Beg: ABSOLUTELY. >> Hara Estroff Marano: IT'S
NOT, OH, WE'RE GIVING YOU A PILL
SO THAT YOU CAN POP IT. YOU'RE GOING TO MEET A LOT OF
CONDITIONS THAT ARE GOING TO
INDUCE ANXIETY IN YOUR LIFE, AND
38:30 - 39:00 WE'RE GOING TO GIVE YOU A SKILL
THAT YOU CAN PULL OUT. >> Mohsan Beg: EXACTLY. >> Hara Estroff Marano: -- ANY
TIME YOU NEED IT, WHETHER IT'S A
TEST OR NOT. >> Steve: SHELDON, LET'S DO
THIS ON THE TOP OF PAGE 3 HERE. THIS IS FROM THE QUEEN'S
UNIVERSITY LAW PROFESSOR BRUCE
PARDY, WRITING IN THE EDUCATION AND LAW JOURNAL:
39:00 - 39:30 >> Steve: YES?
39:30 - 40:00 >> Mohsan Beg: YES AND NO. SPOKEN LIKE A TRUE PSYCHOLOGIST. FOR EXAMPLE, SOMEONE WHO HAS A
READING DISABILITY, RIGHT? I THINK THE ACCOMMODATION HAS TO
BE BASED ON, AT WHAT POINT DOES
THE EXTRA TIME ALLOW THEM TO COMPLETE THE SAME NUMBER OF
QUESTIONS AS SOMEONE WITHOUT A
READING DISABILITY? RIGHT? SO IF I CAN ATTEMPT 25 QUESTIONS
IN 30 MINUTES, HOW LONG DOES
THIS PERSON NEED TO ATTEMPT 25
40:00 - 40:30 QUESTIONS? IS IT 40, 45? I THINK THE PROBLEM IS, WE
REFLEXIVELY SAY DOUBLE TIME OR
TIME AND A HALF WHEN THERE'S NO DATA BEHIND IT. THAT'S THE EMERGING FIELD. WE'RE TRYING TO FIND WHAT IS
THAT SWEET SPOT? SO I DON'T AGREE IT GIVES THEM
AN ADVANTAGE. I REMEMBER GIVING A TALK TO SOME
OF THE LAW STUDENTS AND SOME
PEOPLE WERE SAYING, OH, IT GIVES AN ADVANTAGE. THAT'S LIKE ME SAYING, OKAY, I
HAVE THESE GLASSES AND SOMEHOW I
CAN SEE BETTER THAN YOU CAN
40:30 - 41:00 BECAUSE I HAVE THE GLASSES. NO, MY BRAIN DOESN'T PROCESS THE
VISUAL IMAGE SO I NEED THIS
ACCOMMODATION ONLY TO SEE AS WELL AS YOU. I'M NOT SEEING BETTER THAN YOU. SO I DISAGREE. BUT I THINK HE DOES HAVE A VALID
POINT THAT I THINK NOW THE ONUS
IS GOING TO BE ON INSTITUTIONS AND PROGRAMS, WHAT ARE THE
ESSENTIAL SKILLS OF THAT
PROFESSION THAT ARE REQUIRED? SO WHAT ARE -- YOU KNOW, TO
DEFINE THOSE SO YOU CAN HAVE
THESE DISCUSSIONS, RIGHT? SO FOR LAW, FOR MEDICINE, FOR
NURSING. BECAUSE WE'RE BUMPING INTO
THESE, THEY WANT EXTRA TIME AND
YOU CAN'T HAVE EXTRA TIME AS A
41:00 - 41:30 NURSE. IS THAT TRUE OR NOT TRUE? WHAT ARE THE ESSENTIAL SKILLS
FOR THAT PROFESSION? >> Christie Blatchford: THAT'S
HAPPENING. THAT'S BEEN HAPPENING FOR A
NUMBER OF YEARS. ONE OF THE AREAS IN WHICH -- I
THINK THE POINT THAT'S BEEN MADE
IS ESSENTIAL, THAT ACCOMMODATIONS IS ABOUT LEVELING
THE PLAYING FIELD, IT'S NOT
CREATING UNFAIR ADVANTAGE. THE ISSUE IS THAT SHORTCUTS, IT
MAYBE ISN'T THE BEST WORD, BUT
INSTITUTIONS HAVE COME UP WITH ROUGH AND READY TOOLS FOR
ADDRESSING WHAT CAN SOMETIMES BE
SOME VERY COMPLEX ISSUES.
41:30 - 42:00 BUT ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS I
WOULD NOTE ABOUT THE COMMENT
THAT WAS READ BACK WAS THAT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT
ACCOMMODATION, AS IT'S LEGALLY
CONCEIVED OF YESTERDAY, ENCOURAGES AND INDEED REQUIRES
INSTITUTIONS TO DO IS REFLECT ON
THE WAY THEY EVALUATE DEMONSTRATION OF MASTERY. SO WHEN I WAS A STUDENT,
PRACTICALLY EVERY EXAM I EVER
WROTE WAS A MULTIPLE CHOICE TEST. IT HAD TO BE DONE ON THIS DAY
AND IT HAD TO BE FINISHED IN
THREE HOURS. ARE THERE OTHER WAYS THAT WE CAN
ACTUALLY GET AT WHEN THE
INDIVIDUAL HAS MASTERED LEARNING
42:00 - 42:30 OUTCOMES. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THIS IN A
CONTEXT WHERE THE ASSUMPTION IS
KIND OF THAT WE'RE DEALING WITH FOLKS WHO ARE NOT PERHAPS AMONG
THE MOST SIGNIFICANTLY IMPACTED
THAT SOME OF OUR INSTITUTIONS SEE WHO ARE DEALING WITH
EMOTIONAL ISSUES AND OTHER
THINGS THAT ARE SIGNIFICANT BUT AT THE SAME TIME -- I MEAN,
THERE ARE FOLKS WITHIN THESE
INSTITUTIONS WHO REALLY DO NEED
42:30 - 43:00 ACCOMMODATION AND SUPPORTS IN
ORDER TO BE PLACED ON A LEVEL
PLAYING FIELD. >> Steve: LET ME PICK UP ON
THAT. HOW MUCH OF THIS IS GOING ON? IN YOUR TYPICAL CLASS OF 300
STUDENTS IN A LECTURE HALL; HOW
MANY OF THOSE 300 WOULD BE GETTING SOME KIND OF
ACCOMMODATION IN ORDER TO LEVEL
THE PLAYING FIELD? ANY GUESS? >> Allyson Harrison: OH, IT
WOULD DEPEND. I KNOW IN OUR -- AT QUEEN'S, I
THINK, IN A CLASS OF 300, THERE
WOULD PROBABLY BE 40? >> Steve: IS THAT A LOT OR A
LITTLE?
43:00 - 43:30 >> OVER 10%. NOT THAT MUCH HIGHER OF THE
PERCENTAGE OF SOME OF THOSE
DISORDERS IN THE GENERAL POPULATION, RIGHT? >> Steve: SO THAT SOUNDS
REASONABLE TO YOU? >> Allyson Harrison: WELL,
AGAIN, I THINK THAT WHAT MOHSAN
IS SAYING IS THAT SOMETIMES -- AND THIS GOES BACK TO HARA'S
POINT -- IS THAT SOMETIMES WE
HAVE STUDENTS WHO I THINK HAVE BEEN TOLD SO OFTEN, YOU'VE GOT
THIS PROBLEM, YOU CAN'T DO
ANYTHING ABOUT IT, WE JUST HAVE TO ACCOMMODATE YOU. THEY DON'T KNOW THAT THERE ARE
SOME THINGS THEY COULD DO FOR
THEMSELVES TO MINIMIZE THE
43:30 - 44:00 IMPACT THAT THEIR DISABILITY HAS
ON THEIR EQUAL PARTICIPATION. FOR EXAMPLE, TEST ANXIETY. IF YOU ASK ANY PSYCHOLOGIST,
WHAT'S THE EASIEST DISORDER FOR
ME TO TREAT. IF SOMEONE WALKS IN THE DOOR,
I'M GOING TO SAY, OH, THANK
GOODNESS, I CAN DEAL WITH THAT ANXIETY IS THE DISORDER THAT WE
CAN TREAT BEST. TO ME IT'S REALLY SAD WHEN WE
SEE PEOPLE WHO -- I SEE LOTS OF
STUDENTS WHO NO ONE HAS ACTUALLY TAUGHT THEM WAYS TO MANAGE THEIR
ANXIETY.
44:00 - 44:30 AND WE ALSO KNOW THAT EVERYONE
HAS TO HAVE ANXIETY IN ORDER TO
PERFORM AT THEIR BEST. >> Steve: RIGHT. >> Allyson Harrison: YOU ASK
ANY PERSON BEFORE AN OLYMPIC
EVENT, THEIR ANXIETY IS REALLY HIGH. >> Steve: IF YOU'RE NOT
FEELING A FEW BUTTERFLIES,
SOMETHING IS WRONG. >> Allyson Harrison: MY FRIEND
SAYS IF YOU'RE NOT ANXIOUS
BEFORE A TEST, YOU'RE PROBABLY DEAD, RIGHT? IF YOU HAVEN'T LEARNED HOW TO
MANAGE YOUR ANXIETY PROPERLY AND
ANY ANXIETY IS TOO MUCH ANXIETY, YOU'RE OFF THE DEEP END. SO FOR SOME STUDENTS TOO,
THEY'VE NEVER SORT OF DISCOVERED
WHAT THE LIMITS OF THEIR
44:30 - 45:00 DISABILITY ARE SO THEY CAN SAY,
DO YOU KNOW WHAT? I KNOW IF I'M DOING A WRITTEN
TEST, HANDWRITING IS HARD FOR
ME. I'M GOING TO NEED MORE TIME
UNLESS I CAN USE A COMPUTER. AND THEN I CAN DO IT AS WELL AS
SOMEONE ELSE. BUT INSTEAD THEY THINK THEY NEED
ACCOMMODATIONS IN EVERY SINGLE
TEST FOR EVERYTHING WITHOUT KNOWING WHY. >> Mohsan Beg: AND
INSTITUTIONS ARE ALSO AT THE
RESPONSIBILITY WHERE SOME PEOPLE ARE GETTING CREATIVE. A PROFESSOR, I BELIEVE, I FORGET
HER NAME, AND I APOLOGIZE, AT
RYERSON.
45:00 - 45:30 SHE SET UP HER COURSE WHERE IT'S
NOT MULTIPLE CHOICE FOR
EVERYBODY. SHE HAS A MENU TO PICK FROM. YOU HAVE THREE PAPERS OR THREE
EXAMS OR THREE GROUP PROJECTS OR
WHATEVER. AS LONG AS IT ADDS UP TO 100%,
YOU PICK. >> Steve: SO YOU GO FOR YOUR
STRENGTHS, OBVIOUSLY? >> Mohsan Beg: EXACTLY. YOU HAVE THAT OPEN TO ALL
STUDENTS, RIGHT? THAT'S THE IDEA. >> Steve: LET ME TRY THIS. HARA, THERE'S A UNIVERSITY IN
THE PROVINCE OF QUéBEC CALLED
CONCORDIA, AND NOT LONG AGO, THEY HAD A BOMB SCARE. I MEAN, THERE WAS NO BOMB BUT
THERE WAS A BOMB SCARE.
45:30 - 46:00 SO THE UNIVERSITY SAID, WE
RECOGNIZE THAT BECAUSE OF THIS
BOMB SCARE, SOME OF OUR STUDENTS MAY HAVE FELT TRAUMATIZED
BECAUSE OF IT, AND SO IF YOU
CAN'T GET YOUR ASSIGNMENTS IN ON TIME BECAUSE YOU ARE TRAUMATIZED
BY THIS BOMB SCARE WHICH DIDN'T
HAPPEN, WE WILL ACCOMMODATE THAT SITUATION FOR YOU. WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THEIR
DECISION? >> Hara Estroff Marano: WELL,
I THINK IT STARTS WITH THE WORD
"TRAUMA" AND WHAT WE HAVE IS THIS VAST CONTAMINATION OF THE
LANGUAGE SO THAT NOW A TRAUMA
ONCE HAD A VERY SPECIFIC
46:00 - 46:30 MEANING. THERE ARE SOME THINGS THAT ARE
LEGITIMATELY TRAUMATIZED. BUT NOW WE'VE HAD THIS
METASTASIZING OF THE NOTION SO
THAT LITTLE DISCOMF0RTING EVENTS ARE TRAUMATIC, AND MISUSING THE
LANGUAGE IS ACTUALLY VERY
CRITICAL IN THIS BECAUSE IT
46:30 - 47:00 DICTATES HOW YOU SHOULD RESPOND
AND WHAT YOU SHOULD DO AND HOW
YOU SHOULD FEEL ABOUT THIS EVENT. SO WHEN YOU START OUT BY
ASSUMING THIS IS A TRAUMA FOR
EVERYONE, YOU'RE IN A SENSE TELLING EVERYBODY THAT AN EVENT
OF THIS MAGNITUDE -- WHICH IS
NOT PLEASANT. WE ALL AGREE ON THAT.
47:00 - 47:30 AND IT'S LESS PLEASANT FOR SOME
THAN OTHERS AND MAY AFFECT A
FEW. BUT NOT NECESSARILY EVERYBODY,
AND I'M NOT SO SURE IT SHOULD BE
CALLED A TRAUMA AND I'M NOT SURE IT SHOULD BE DEALT WITH AS IF IT
WERE SOME REALLY SERIOUS
CONDITION FOR WHICH EVERYBODY NEEDS TREATMENT BECAUSE THAT'S
JUST ANOTHER WAY OF
INFANTILIZING EVERYBODY AND TELLING EVERYBODY, YOU REALLY
CAN'T HANDLE THIS. YOU REALLY DON'T HAVE THE SKILLS
FOR HANDLING THIS. >> Steve: THAT WAS
INTERESTING.
47:30 - 48:00 THESE WEREN'T STUDENTS COMING
FORWARD AND SAYING I NEED THE
TIME BECAUSE, THIS IS THE INSTITUTION OFFERING IT. >> Hara Estroff Marano: IT
SHOULD BE THE OTHER WAY AROUND
WHERE THE DOOR IS OPEN AND, YOU KNOW, FOR SOMEONE WHO NEEDS IT,
MAYBE -- I'M NOT EVEN SURE
THAT'S THE BEST WAY. I WOULD WANT TO TALK TO OTHER
PEOPLE TO FIND OUT WHAT BEST
PRACTICES ARE IN THIS KIND OF A SITUATION, BUT I DON'T THINK THE
ASSUMPTION SHOULD BE MADE THAT,
OKAY, EVERYBODY, WE'VE ALL BEEN TRAUMATIZED AND YOU'RE ALL
WIMPS.
48:00 - 48:30 I MEAN, THAT'S THE UNSPOKEN
ASSUMPTION HERE AND YOU CAN'T
DEAL WITH THIS. >> Steve: MOHSAN, HOW WOULD
WINDSOR HAVE HANDLED THAT IF IT
HAPPENED OVER THERE? >> Mohsan Beg: THERE ARE
IMPORTANT POINTS. WE HAVE A CHANGE IN REALITY IN
THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN
COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES AND FAMILIES AND PARENTS. THERE'S ALMOST AN EXPECTATION OF
THE OVER CONSUMER MODEL, THERE'S
A LOT MORE TALK OF CUSTOMER SERVICE, YOU HAVEN'T HEARD OF
BEFORE AT UNIVERSITIES. PARENTS ARE CALLING, WHAT ARE
YOU DOING FOR MY KID?
48:30 - 49:00 YOU KNOW? IT'S ALMOST LIKE THERE'S A BIT
OF A FLIP BACK. PRIOR TO THE 1960s, WE HAD
THAT IN LOCO PARENTIS, THE
UNIVERSITY IS A SUBSTITUTE PARENT. WE'VE MOVED AWAY FROM THAT. PARENTS ARE WHAT ARE YOU DOING
AROUND ALCOHOL, WHAT ARE YOU
DOING AROUND SEXUAL ASSAULT ON CAMPUSES, WHAT ARE YOU DOING
WHEN THERE'S A BOMB THREAT. SO UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES ARE
OBLIGATED TO SAY, WHAT CAN WE
DO? THERE'S AN EFFORT TO SAY -- AND
I THINK IT HAS TO BE DRIVEN BY,
IS THIS THE BEST RESPONSE?
49:00 - 49:30 I THINK THE REFLECTIVE RESPONSE
IS WHAT CAN WE DO RIGHT AWAY TO
SUPPORT OUR STUDENTS AND THERE'S AN EXPECTATION WE DO THIS. >> Hara Estroff Marano:
REFLEXIVE ARE NOT ALWAYS THE
BEST RESPONSES. WHAT SEEMS INTUITIVE IS NOT
NECESSARILY THE BEST. >> Steve: ALLYSON, I WONDER
WHETHER OR NOT THE BETTER
POSITION FOR CONCORDIA TO HAVE TAKEN IN THIS PLACE WAS -- YOU
KNOW, SOMEBODY OBVIOUSLY CALLED
IN SOMETHING. IT WAS A FALSE ALARM. NOTHING HAPPENED. SO NOTHING, EVERYBODY. THERE'S NOTHING TO SEE HERE. MOVE ALONG.
49:30 - 50:00 GET BACK TO CLASSES. GET YOUR ESSAYS IN ON TIME. GET YOUR REPORTS IN ON TIME. THERE'S NO ACCOMMODATION
NECESSARY HERE. IS THAT AN INAPPROPRIATE WAY TO
RESPOND TO THIS? >> Allyson Harrison: THIS
COMES BACK TO WHAT HARA WAS
SAYING THAT YOU MAY WELL HAVE HAD SOME STUDENTS WHO CAME FROM
WAR-TORN COUNTRIES WHERE, FOR
THEM, THIS DOES BRING BACK MEMORIES OF A TRAUMA, YOU KNOW,
THAT IT'S SOMETHING THAT DOES
CAUSE A GREAT DEAL OF DISTRESS BECAUSE THEY'VE LIVED THROUGH
THAT. YOU DON'T WANT TO -- AGAIN, IT'S
HARD TO MAKE A BLANKET
STATEMENT.
50:00 - 50:30 THERE'S ALWAYS SOMEONE WHO FALLS
THROUGH THE CRACKS. THERE ARE ALWAYS EXCEPTIONS TO
THE RULE. BUT I DO THINK -- I AGREE WITH
HARA THAT INSTEAD OF SORT OF
HAVING THIS KNEE-JERK, YOU GUYS CAN'T COPE AT ALL SO WE'RE JUST
GOING TO DO THIS FOR EVERYBODY,
I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE BEST ANSWER EITHER. IT JUST REINFORCES FOR A LOT OF
STUDENTS, OH, I CAN'T COPE. I JUST DON'T HAVE THE SKILLS TO
DEAL WITH THIS. AND I DIDN'T REALIZE -- THE FACT
THAT THERE COULD HAVE BEEN A
BOMB SCARE, THAT IS SOMETHING I
50:30 - 51:00 SHOULD BE REALLY UPSET ABOUT. >> Steve: AT THE END OF THE
DAY YOU ARE GOING TO GET A PIECE
OF PAPER ON GRADUATION DAY THAT SAYS YOU HAVE GRADUATED BECAUSE
YOU HAVE MET ALL THE
REQUIREMENTS THAT THIS UNIVERSITY PUTS ON YOU IN ORDER
TO GET YOUR DEGREE. AND THAT PIECE OF PAPER IS
SUPPOSED TO STAND FOR SOMETHING. AND I WONDER WHETHER THERE'S A
PART OF YOU THAT IS AT ALL
CONCERNED THAT THE PIECE OF PAPER IS SUPPOSED TO MEAN THE
SAME THING FOR EVERYBODY WHO
GETS IT BUT IN FACT IF YOU MAKE SO MANY ACCOMMODATIONS, IT'S
NOT, ACTUALLY. DO YOU WORRY ABOUT THAT? >> Catherine Peters: I DON'T
WORRY ABOUT IT PERSONALLY, I
GUESS, BECAUSE I AM AN ADVOCATE
51:00 - 51:30 OF ACCESSIBLE EDUCATION AND I DO
BELIEVE THAT -- ALWAYS POINT TO
CIRCUMSTANCES THAT PERHAPS CAST SOME LIGHT ON HOW THINGS COULD
HAVE BEEN DONE BETTER. I BELIEVE THERE ARE LOTS OF
CASES WHERE THESE ISSUES ARE
DEALT WITH VERY SUCCESSFULLY AND THAT THE INDIVIDUAL GRADUATES
AND RECEIVES THE DEGREE THAT
THEY'RE EVERY BIT ENTITLED TO. I MEAN, I HAVE TO SAY PERSONALLY
THAT DOESN'T TROUBLE ME TOO MUCH
AND I ALSO KNOW THAT THE ONE THING LEGALLY AND IN TERMS OF
PEOPLE I DEAL WITH AT
INSTITUTIONS, THAT THEY DO HOLD
51:30 - 52:00 THE LINE ON, AS MUCH AS THEY
CAN, IS YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO
DEMONSTRATE MASTERY OF THE LEARNING OUTCOMES, AND THAT
IS -- I MEAN, IN DIFFERENT TYPES
OF PROGRAMS, THAT INVOLVES DIFFERENT THINGS. THERE ARE MORE AND MORE
EXPERIENTIAL PROGRAM WHERE THE
STUDENT HAS TO GO INTO A WORK ENVIRONMENT AND DEMONSTRATE
WHETHER OR NOT THEY CAN DO THAT. IN SOMETHING LIKE LIBERAL ARTS,
THAT MAY BE MORE DIFFICULT.
52:00 - 52:30 I HAVE TO SAY AS A GRADUATE,
THERE ARE A LOTS OF PEOPLE WHO
HAD ACCOMMODATIONS WHO NEVER HANDED IN AN ASSIGNMENT ON TIME,
RIGHT? I SAY THAT NOT TO BE FLIP, BUT
THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A CERTAIN
SPECTRUM OF COMMITMENT TO PROGRAM AND PERFORMANCE AND
EVERYBODY GETS THE SAME DEGREE
AT THE END OF THE DAY. >> Steve: OKAY. IN WHICH CASE, HARA, WHAT
HAPPENS TO THE STUDENT WHO HAS
BEEN ACCOMMODATED, LET'S SAY MORE OFTEN THAN NOT DURING THE
COURSE OF HIS OR HER UNIVERSITY
CAREER, GRADUATES, AND THEN HITS
52:30 - 53:00 THE WORKPLACE? >> Hara Estroff Marano: WELL,
I'VE SEEN THEM. I'M ASSUMING THAT EVERYBODY ELSE
HERE HAS DEALT WITH THEM IN SOME
WAY, AND SOME OF THE SAME PROBLEMS FOLLOW THEM INTO THE
WORKPLACE. I CAN EDIT A PIECE OF COPY
WITHOUT REGARD TO WHOSE COPY IT
IS, AND FIVE MINUTES LATER, I'LL EDIT A PIECE AND IT'S GOT A LOT
OF MARKS ON IT, AND I WILL GIVE
IT BACK TO THE YOUNG PERSON AND
53:00 - 53:30 FIND HER THREE MINUTES LATER
SOBBING IN THE LADIES ROOM. THERE'S NO SENSE THAT -- THERE'S
NO TOLERANCE FOR IMPERFECTION. EVERYBODY GETS EDITED. I GET EDITED. EVERYBODY NEEDS IT.
53:30 - 54:00 IN MANY WAYS -- THE HOPE IS THAT
THEY'RE GOING TO SHAPE UP PRETTY
SOON. THERE ARE A LOT OF PROBLEMS THAT
PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT,
ABOUT MILLENNIALS WHO HAPPEN TO BE THIS GENERATION IN THE
WORKPLACE AND I'VE SEEN THEM AND
LOTS OF OTHER PEOPLE HAVE SEEN THEM. DO YOU WANT ME TO ENUMERATE --
>> Steve: I WANT YOU TO TELL
ME, IF THEIR PARENTS AREN'T -- >> Hara Estroff Marano: THE
PARENTS OUGHT TO COME TO THE
JOB. >> Steve: IF THE PARENTS OR
THE UNIVERSITIES WON'T SHAPE
THEM UP AND THEY COME TO THE
54:00 - 54:30 WORKPLACE --
>> Catherine Peters: THERE ARE
ACCOMMODATIONS IN THE WORKPLACE EITHER. >> Allyson Harrison: FOR YOUR
PARENTS TO COME WITH YOU? >> Steve: THAT SOUNDS A BIT
MUCH. >> Catherine Peters: WE'RE ALL
CONSCIOUS OF THIS IDEA BUT IT'S
ALSO IMPORTANT TO STRESS THAT THERE IS KIND OF A BROADER
DISCUSSION GOING ON ABOUT
DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION IN THE WORKPLACE, AND THAT DOES INCLUDE
A RECOGNITION THAT THERE HAS TO
BE SOME -- OR THERE SHOULD BE SOME MEETING IN THE MIDDLE,
RIGHT? SO THAT IT'S NOT JUST A QUESTION
OF REQUIRING YOUNG PEOPLE
ENTERING THE WORK FORCE TO
54:30 - 55:00 ADHERE TO STANDARDS THAT HAVE
BEEN IN PLACE SINCE OUR
GRANDPARENTS WERE CHILDREN, THAT THERE SHOULD BE A DIALOGUE
BETWEEN THE TWO, IN THE SAME WAY
AS WE WERE DESCRIBING WHEN WE TALK ABOUT EVALUATION IN THE
UNIVERSITY SETTING, THAT THERE
MIGHT BE A DIALOGUE ABOUT WHETHER THERE'S DIFFERENT WAYS
TO ACHIEVE THE SAME OUTCOME. >> Steve: AN EXAMPLE THAT WE
MIGHT KNOW RATHER WELL IN THIS
BUILDING. THIS PROGRAM AIRS FOR THE FIRST
TIME AT 8:00 AT NIGHT AND IT'S
REPEATED AT 11:00. IF SOMEBODY WANTED A REASONABLE
ACCOMMODATION, WHICH SOUNDED
SOMETHING LIKE, YOU KNOW, I'M
55:00 - 55:30 JUST NOT SURE I CAN GET IT DONE
BY 8:00 TONIGHT. I MIGHT NEED UNTIL 8:30. THAT'S NOT ON. YOU'VE GOT TO DRAW A LINE
SOMEWHERE, DON'T YOU? >> Catherine Peters: I'M NOT
SAYING THERE AREN'T SOME
REQUIREMENTS THAT HAVE TO BE MET. THAT'S NOT MY PERSPECTIVE. I MEAN, YOU CAN IMAGINE
SITUATIONS, IF YOU WANT TO GET
CREATIVE ABOUT IT, WHERE THERE MIGHT BE A SLIGHTLY LONGER TIME
FRAME TO GET FROM POINT A TO
POINT B. I DON'T NECESSARILY IF TAKING
THE DISCUSSION IN THAT DIRECTION
IS PRODUCTIVE.
55:30 - 56:00 THERE ARE SOME ACCOMMODATIONS IN
THE WORKPLACE THAT HAVE TO BE
ACHIEVED -- A DEADLINE, ABSOLUTELY. I WORK IN A PROFESSION THAT'S
ALL ABOUT DEADLINES. I GUESS WHAT I AM SAYING IS
THERE IS ALSO IN THAT
ENVIRONMENT OPPORTUNITIES TO PROBLEM-SOLVE. >> Allyson Harrison: IT
DEPENDS ON THE JOB. THERE WAS A CASE A NUMBER OF
YEARS AGO IN THE STATES OF A
MEDICAL STUDENT WHO WAS BLIND WHO WANTED AN ACCOMMODATION. HE WANTED TO BE A SURGEON. HE WANTED AN ACCOMMODATION OF
HAVING A SURGEON DESIGNATE TO GO
WITH HIM IN THE OPERATING ROOM
56:00 - 56:30 AND HE WOULD TELL THIS DESIGNATE
WHAT THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO DO. >> Steve: WAS HE GRANTED THAT? >> Allyson Harrison: HE WAS
NOT. IT COMES BACK TO CATHERINE'S
POINT. YOU DON'T HAVE TO ACCOMMODATE A
CENTRAL QUESTION OF THAT
ACTIVITY OR TASK. UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES, UP
UNTIL NOW, WE HAVE SAID BECAUSE
WE SAID SO. THE PROFESSOR SAYS BECAUSE I
SAID SO. RATHER THAN LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT
IT.
56:30 - 57:00 MY TEST HAS ALWAYS BEEN TO SAY,
IF YOU HAD A CONFIDENT, CAPABLE
PERSON OUT IN THE WORK FORCE DOING THIS JOB OR TASK AND THEN
THEY HAD AN ACCIDENT, GOD
FORBID, WHERE THEY NOW COULD NO LONGER READ OR WRITE AS QUICKLY,
COULD THEY STILL FUNCTION IN
THAT JOB? IF THE ANSWER IS YES, THEN
THAT'S A REASONABLE
ACCOMMODATION. BUT IF YOU SAID, NO, ONE OF THE
CENTRAL REQUIREMENTS OF BEING A
SURGEON IS YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO SEE WHETHER THAT'S A VEIN OR
A NERVE. THEN ONCE YOU LOSE YOUR
EYESIGHT, YOU CAN'T ACCOMMODATE
FOR THAT. THERE ARE LOTS OF THINGS THAT
YOU CAN, NOW, WITH TECHNOLOGY --
>> BUT NOT ALL THINGS.
57:00 - 57:30 >> Allyson Harrison: THAT'S
RIGHT. >> Steve: I DO HAVE TO SAY ONE
OF THE ACCOMMODATIONS THEY MAKE
AT THIS PLACE HERE, IS WHEN TIME IS UP, I HAVE TO SAY TIME IS UP. >> Allyson Harrison: THAT WAS
A GOOD SEGUE. >> Steve: NOT BAD. I LEARNED A COUPLE OF TRICKS
OVER THE YEARS. I WANT TO THANK ALL OF OUR
GUESTS COMING FROM NEAR AND FAR
TO BE HERE TONIGHT. ALLYSON HARRISON FROM QUEEN'S,
MOHSAN BEG FROM WINDSOR,
CATHERINE PETERS FROM THE LAW FIRM HICKS MORLEY, AND HARA
ESTROFF MARANO FROM NEW YORK
CITY, PSYCHOLOGY TODAY'S EDITOR
57:30 - 58:00 AT LARGE. IT WAS GREAT TO HAVE ALL OF YOU
ON TVO WITH US HERE TONIGHT. >> (ALL) THANK YOU.