The Challenges of Accommodation in Education

Reasonable Accommodation?

Estimated read time: 1:20

Summary

In this insightful discussion by TVO Today, experts dive into the complex issue of reasonable accommodations for students, particularly those in post-secondary education. With mental health and differing abilities being prevalent concerns, the panel addressed the question of whether current accommodations are adequate and how they transition into the workforce. Key voices included clinical psychologist Allyson Harrison and human rights lawyer Catherine Peters, who shared their perspectives on the challenges facing both educators and students. The conversation delved into the implications of accommodations on students' future success and the balance needed to ensure fair treatment while preparing them for real-world challenges.

Highlights

The balance between making accommodations and ensuring students are ready for the real world is tricky. 🤔
High support in high school can lead to unrealistic expectations for accommodations in university. 🎒
Mental health crises are notable on campuses, necessitating better support systems. 🧠
Some accommodations could be seen as giving unfair advantages if not monitored. 📉
Helicopter parenting may deprive students of learning critical coping skills. 🚸

Key Takeaways

The balance between necessary accommodations and over-accommodating students remains a challenge. 🤔
Transitioning from high school to university can be tough due to varying levels of support. 🎒
Mental health issues on campuses require more attention and nuanced approaches. 🧠
There's a debate on whether accommodations may unintentionally hinder real-world preparedness. 🌍
Parents' tendencies to over-protect can limit students' coping skills. 🚸

Overview

In a riveting discussion on TVO Today, experts gathered to tackle the pressing issue of reasonable accommodations in post-secondary education. The topic is more relevant than ever, with mental health becoming a critical concern and students requiring different levels of support. The panel, including insights from clinical psychologist Allyson Harrison, highlighted the importance of finding the right balance between necessary accommodations and preparing students for the challenges of the real world. 🤔

One of the central themes was the transition from high school to university, where the expectations and support systems can vastly differ. Many students enter university expecting the same level of accommodation they've received in high school, leading to potential challenges. Mental health crises on campuses further complicate the matter, underscoring the need for robust support structures to ensure students' well-being and success. 🧠

The discussion also touched on the broader implications of accommodations, particularly as students move into the workforce. Concerns were raised that extensive accommodations might leave some students ill-prepared for the demands of real-life scenarios. This conversation opened up a dialogue on finding a balance between supporting students and fostering independence, providing a comprehensive look at this complex issue. 🌍

Chapters

00:00 - 00:30: Introduction The chapter introduces the main themes and objectives of the book. It sets the stage for the concepts and ideas that will be elaborated in the subsequent chapters. It discusses the context and background that led to writing this book and provides a brief overview of the key topics that will be covered. The introduction aims to engage the reader by highlighting the significance and relevance of the subject matter, preparing them for a detailed exploration in the chapters that follow.
00:30 - 06:00: Setting the Stage: Expectations and Accommodations The chapter titled 'Setting the Stage: Expectations and Accommodations' introduces the primary goal of ensuring student success. It highlights the shared desire among educators, administrators, and parents for students to thrive in their academic pursuits. The discussion likely focuses on outlining the necessary expectations and accommodations required to facilitate an effective learning environment where all students can achieve their full potential.
06:00 - 34:00: Discussion with the Experts In the chapter titled 'Discussion with the Experts', the narrative focuses on the crucial roles played by teachers, parents, and students themselves in the educational process. The transcript highlights the importance of each group's contribution to achieving successful educational outcomes.
34:00 - 58:00: Individual Challenges and System Response This chapter discusses the various challenges faced by students who require accommodations due to different abilities and mental health issues. It explores the systemic responses to these challenges within educational institutions, highlighting the importance of support and adaptation to meet student needs.
58:00 - 85:30: The Workplace and Future Concerns The chapter begins with a focus on the transition students make from high school to the workforce, highlighting the increased stress levels encountered in professional environments.
85:30 - 93:00: Conclusion and Closing Thoughts This chapter discusses the expectations and reception of accommodations in post-secondary education. It raises questions about what students in higher education should anticipate in terms of support and how institutions address these needs. The chapter provides insights into balancing student expectations with institutional capabilities in delivering appropriate accommodations.

Reasonable Accommodation? Transcription

00:00 - 00:30
00:30 - 01:00 >> Steve: EVERYONE WANTS STUDENTS TO SUCCEED.
01:00 - 01:30 TEACHERS, PARENTS AND THE STUDENTS THEMSELVES ALL HAVE A PART TO PLAY, ESPECIALLY FOR
01:30 - 02:00 STUDENTS WHO NEED ACCOMMODATING FOR DIFFERING ABILITIES AND MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES.
02:00 - 02:30 BUT WHEN STUDENTS LEAVE HIGH SCHOOL BEHIND FOR THE EVEN MORE STRESSFUL ENVIRONMENT OF
02:30 - 03:00 POST-SECONDARY LEARNING, SHOULD THEY EXPECT, AND RECEIVE, THE SAME LEVEL OF ACCOMMODATION?
03:00 - 03:30 AND DOES SUCH ASSISTANCE HELP WITH WHAT'S BEEN CALLED A MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS ON UNIVERSITY
03:30 - 04:00 CAMPUSES?
04:00 - 04:30 LET'S ASK: ALLYSON HARRISON, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST AND CLINICAL
04:30 - 05:00 DIRECTOR OF THE REGIONAL ASSESSMENT & RESOURCE CENTRE AT QUEEN'S UNIVERSITY;
05:00 - 05:30 CATHERINE PETERS, HUMAN RIGHTS LAWYER AT HICKS MORLEY; MOHSAN BEG, CLINICAL
05:30 - 06:00 PSYCHOLOGIST AND DIRECTOR OF THE STUDENT COUNSELLING CENTRE, UNIVERSITY OF WINDSOR;
06:00 - 06:30 AND WE WELCOME BACK, HARA ESTROFF MARANO, EDITOR AT LARGE OF<i> PSYCHOLOGY TODAY.</i>
06:30 - 07:00 AND I WANT TO THANK, FIRST OF ALL, WE'VE GOT FOUR NEW PEOPLE ON THIS PROGRAM WHO HAVE NEVER
07:00 - 07:30 BEEN ON BEFORE.
07:30 - 08:00 THAT'S GREAT.
08:00 - 08:30 I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR MAKING THE LONG DRIVE FROM WINDSOR AND YOU COMING IN FROM KINGSTON AND
08:30 - 09:00 YOU JUST CAME FROM DOWN THE STREET, RIGHT?
09:00 - 09:30 BUT YOU CAME FROM NEW YORK, SO THAT'S PRETTY COOL TOO.
09:30 - 10:00 JUST BEFORE WE DIVE IN HERE, YOU ALL HEARD HARA IN THE LAST SEGMENT, AND I WANT TO GET A
10:00 - 10:30 SENSE ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK OF HOW THINGS ARE ON YOUR CAMPUS VERSUS THE WAY YOU HEARD IT
10:30 - 11:00 DESCRIBED OVER HERE.
11:00 - 11:30 ALLYSON, START US OFF.
11:30 - 12:00 >> Allyson Harrison: WELL, IT WAS INTERESTING LISTENING BECAUSE THE CENTRE AT WHICH I
12:00 - 12:30 WORK, WE PROVIDE SUPPORT SERVICES TO STUDENTS AT ALL COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES IN THE
12:30 - 13:00 SOUTH HALF OF THE PROVINCE.
13:00 - 13:30 SO I GET TO SEE IT, NOT JUST AT QUEEN'S, BUT AT LOTS OF DIFFERENT INSTITUTIONS, AND I
13:30 - 14:00 WOULD SAY WE'RE SEEING MORE AND MORE STUDENTS ACROSS THE PROVINCE WHO ARE HAVING MORE
14:00 - 14:30 DIFFICULTY WITH COPING WITH EMOTIONS.
14:30 - 15:00 THEY HAVE -- I AGREE.
15:00 - 15:30 THEY HAVE NO STRESS TOLERANCE WHATSOEVER.
15:30 - 16:00 THEY HAVE NO DISTRESS TOLERANCE, IS WHAT YOU SAID.
16:00 - 16:30 AND SO IT MAKES IT REALLY DIFFICULT.
16:30 - 17:00 IF YOU'VE NEVER LEARNED HOW TO COPE WITH REALLY SMALL DISAPPOINTMENTS AND SMALL
17:00 - 17:30 STRESSES, THEN ONCE YOU COME TO UNIVERSITY AND THE STAKES ARE HIGHER, EVERYTHING JUST FEELS
17:30 - 18:00 LIKE IT'S A CRISIS AND EVEN IF IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE MIGHT SAY IS SMALL.
18:00 - 18:30 >> Steve: WHAT'S THE STORY IN WINDSOR?
18:30 - 19:00 >> Mohsan Beg: WELL, AT WINDSOR, I WAS THE DIRECTOR OF THE COUNSELLING CENTRE THERE.
19:00 - 19:30 WE'RE IN THE TRENCHES, WORKING WITH STUDENTS WHO ARE COMING IN.
19:30 - 20:00 THE 15 YEARS I'VE BEEN THERE, DEFINITELY THERE'S BEEN AN INCREASE NOT ONLY IN THE VOLUME
20:00 - 20:30 BUT ALSO THE SEVERITY OF PROBLEMS THAT WE'RE SEEING.
20:30 - 21:00 I THINK PART OF THE -- PART OF THE ISSUE IS WHAT HARA WAS TALKING ABOUT, THIS DIFFICULTY
21:00 - 21:30 WITH BEING ABLE TO COPE AND HANDLE DISCOMFORT, ALL RIGHT?
21:30 - 22:00 BUT I ALSO THINK THERE'S A KIND OF WIDER ISSUE WITH RESPECT TO STUDENTS THAT ARE COMING IN.
22:00 - 22:30 IT'S KIND OF SYMPTOMATIC GOING ON OUTSIDE THE UNIVERSITY.
22:30 - 23:00 IF YOU LOOK AT CLAIMS IN THE WORKPLACE, THE VAST MAJORITY ARE MENTAL HEALTH.
23:00 - 23:30 I THINK THERE'S A PUBLIC HEALTH ISSUE THAT'S ALSO BEING REFLECTED ON CAMPUS AS WE ARE A SEGMENT OF SOCIETY. >> Steve: MORE AWARENESS? >> Mohsan Beg: THERE'S MORE STIGMA REDUCTION, WHICH IS LIKE HARA WAS SAYING, IT'S GOOD THAT PEOPLE ARE COMING AND SEEKING OUT HELP. >> Hara Estroff Marano: AND STUDENTS ARE VERY ACTIVE IN WANTING THAT DISCUSSION.
23:30 - 24:00 >> Mohsan Beg: AND I THINK THEY'RE USED TO IT TOO. THEY'RE COMING OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL, OR EVEN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL, ACCESSING MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES OR COUNSELLING AND THEY'RE COMING IN, RIGHT? BUT I THINK THE IMPORTANT POINT IS THAT UNIVERSITIES ARE TAXED, RIGHT, IN TERMS OF TRYING TO MEET THIS DEMAND. EVEN LEAVING, COMING HERE, WE'RE IN THE MIDST OF EXAMS COMING UP. END OF SEMESTER. THIS IS OUR BUSIEST TIME OF YEAR. YOU'RE LOOKING AT WAITING LISTS OF UP TO THREE, FOUR WEEKS.
24:00 - 24:30 >> Steve: WHEN YOU SAY BUSIEST TIME OF YEAR, YOU MEAN FOR YOUR SERVICE -- >> Mohsan Beg: EXACTLY. FOR THE NEEDS OF THE STUDENTS COMING IN. >> Steve: WHAT'S YOUR SENSE -- OBVIOUSLY YOU DON'T WORK AT A UNIVERSITY NOW BUT YOUR UNIVERSITY EXPERIENCE IS NOT THAT FAR IN THE REAR VIEW MIRROR AND YOU'VE HEARD WHAT OTHERS HAVE TO SAY. >> Catherine Peters: CERTAINLY THE SIDE THAT I SEE OF IT ARE THE COMPLEX CASES THAT ARE REALLY PROVING CHALLENGING FOR UNIVERSITIES TO HANDLE. THERE'S NO QUESTION, I THINK, THAT THERE HAS BEEN AN UPTICK, BOTH IN UNIVERSITY ENVIRONMENTS
24:30 - 25:00 AND IN EMPLOYMENT ENVIRONMENTS, BECAUSE I'M ALSO AN EMPLOYMENT LAWYER, IN THE RANGE AND COMPLEXITY OF ACCOMMODATION ISSUES THAT ARISE, AND IN MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES IN PARTICULAR. IT'S DIFFICULT FOR ME TO SAY, I'M NOT AN EDUCATOR, BUT CERTAINLY I DO THINK THAT THE FACT THAT THERE'S MORE AWARENESS AROUND THESE ISSUES, THAT PEOPLE DO FEEL MORE COMFORTABLE BRINGING FORWARD THE CONCERNS THAT THEY'RE EXPERIENCING, COULD CERTAINLY BE DRIVING SOME OF THE NUMBERS. BUT CERTAINLY WHAT I HEAR FROM ACADEMIC ADMINISTRATORS TIME AND TIME AGAIN IS THEY DO PERCEIVE THAT THE CURRENT GENERATION OF STUDENTS ARE MORE STRESSED, FOR WHATEVER REASON, THAN THOSE WHO
25:00 - 25:30 CAME BEFORE. >> Steve: WELL, ALLYSON, I READ THE TITLE OF HARA'S BOOK, AND THE SUGGESTION THERE SEEMS TO BE THAT WE'VE GOT A CONTINENT OF PARENTS HERE THAT HAVE NURTURED A WHOLE GENERATION OF WIMPS. DOES IT LOOK THAT WAY TO YOU? >> Allyson Harrison: WELL, I THINK NOT ALL OF THEM ARE LIKE THAT, BUT I THINK WE HAVE A LOT MORE PARENTS, AS HARA WAS SAYING, WHO, THEY DON'T WANT THEIR CHILDREN TO FAIL. THEY'RE SO AFRAID OF HAVING THEIR CHILDREN FAIL. AND ALSO, THEY DON'T WANT THEIR KIDS TO GO THROUGH THE SAME STRESSES AND HEARTACHES AND
25:30 - 26:00 FRUSTRATIONS THEY DID. SO THEY WANT TO, AS HARA WAS SAYING, THEY WANT TO SMOOTH THE ROAD. BUT WHAT'S HAPPENED, AND YOU TALK ABOUT THIS IN YOUR BOOK, IS THEY'VE RAISED THEM IN THIS HOT HOUSE OR THIS GREENHOUSE. THEY'VE GOT -- THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN BUFFETED BY WIND OR RAIN OR BAD CONDITIONS, AND ANYONE WHO IS A GARDENER KNOWS, IF YOU TAKE A PLANT OUT OF THAT AND STICK IT OUTSIDE, IT'S GOING TO GET SUNBURN AND DAY WITHIN A DAY BECAUSE IT HAS NO HARDINESS.
26:00 - 26:30 I SEE A LOT MORE STUDENTS WHO DON'T HAVE THAT HARDINESS AND PARENTS, BY TRYING TO HELP THEM, DON'T -- I DON'T KNOW IF YOU WANT AN EXAMPLE. BUT I HAD ONE STUDENT THIS YEAR WHOSE DAD REALLY WANTED THE BEST FOR HIM AND HAD SOLD HIS HOUSE AND WAS GOING TO MOVE TO WHERE HIS SON WAS GOING TO SCHOOL, AND AS HE WAS GOING TO MAKE SURE HE GOT OFF ON TIME AND HE WAS GOING TO DO HIS LAUNDRY FOR HIM AND HE WAS GOING TO MAKE HIS MEALS -- >> Steve: WHAT? >> DONE THIS FOR YEARS -- >> WE HAVE PARENTS WHO WANT TO LIVE IN RESIDENCE WITH THEIR
26:30 - 27:00 KIDS, THEY DRIVE TWO AND A HALF HOURS TO DO THEIR LAUNDRY, HELP THEM WITH THEIR HOMEWORK, COOK THEIR MEALS. DO EVERYTHING. >> Steve: YOU'RE NOT KIDDING HERE? >> Allyson Harrison: I'M NOT KIDDING HERE. >> Hara Estroff Marano: THERE'S AN OLYMPIC SOCCER TRAINING PROGRAM IN THE UNITED STATES. THEIR PARENTS WON'T LEAVE THE SOCCER CAMP WHEN THEY DROP THEM OFF. >> Allyson Harrison: ANYWAY, THIS WAS HAPPENING. AND IT TURNED OUT, HE SAID, I HAVE TO DO THIS BECAUSE HE CAN'T FAIL.
27:00 - 27:30 I DON'T WANT HIM TO FAIL. I SAID I REALLY DON'T MEAN THIS BADLY BUT WHAT HAPPENS, IF GOD FORBID, YOU GET HIT BY A BUS TOMORROW, HOW IS HE GOING TO LEARN HOW TO DO THIS STUFF BY HIMSELF? OH, I NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT. THE FATHER HAD GONE THROUGH THE SAME STRESSES IN COLLEGE AND HAD FAILED IN FIRST YEAR. AND HE SAID THAT'S WHAT CHANGED MY LIFE AND MADE ME WORK HARDER AND GET THROUGH. I SAID, HOLD ON. YOU'RE TELLING ME THAT WAS THE THING THAT HELPED YOU SUCCEED, BUT YOU AREN'T GOING TO LET -- >> Steve: DEPRIVE YOUR SON OF THAT.
27:30 - 28:00 >> Allyson Harrison: IT WAS HARD. I KNOW IT WAS HARD. THAT ACTUALLY HELPED YOU LEARN HOW TO COPE. WHAT IS IT? YOU GET KILLED BY KINDNESS. YOU'RE TRYING SO HARD TO MAKE SURE THEY DON'T EVER HAVE ANY STRESSES, THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO COPE WITH ANYTHING. >> Steve: I WANT TO PUT A SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT ISSUE ON THE TABLE HERE. TO DO THAT, WE'RE GOING TO QUOTE HERE FROM THE JOURNAL OF POSTSECONDARY EDUCATION AND DISABILITY. THIS IS FROM A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO. GO AHEAD, SHELDON. LET'S BRING THIS UP.
28:00 - 28:30 >> Steve: MOHSAN, IS THERE A CONNECTION HERE? >> Mohsan Beg: I THINK THERE'S DEFINITELY, AS WE WERE TALKING ABOUT, WHEN YOU ARE SEEING STUDENTS WHO ARE NOW COMING THROUGH THE SYSTEM, MAY BE ACCOMMODATED AND THEY'RE USED TO
28:30 - 29:00 THAT. THE ACCOMMODATION IS ALMOST SEEN AS A RIGHT. SOMETIMES WHEN YOU HAVE PEOPLE COME IN AND THEY'RE ASKING FOR THOSE TYPES OF ACCOMMODATION. OKAY, I NEED TO HAVE THIS. SOMETIMES THEY'RE NOT BASED ON DATA. THERE HASN'T BEEN A FORMAL ASSESSMENT DONE OR THEY'RE LOOKING AT -- YOU KNOW, AND I THINK IN OUR OFFICE, WE DON'T PROVIDE ACCOMMODATIONS. WE MAY MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS FOR ACCOMMODATIONS, RIGHT? BUT OUR GOAL IS TO SAY: WHAT'S THE BEST WAY, AND IDEALLY, IF WE CAN, WITH PEOPLE SUFFERING FROM,
29:00 - 29:30 SAY, ANXIETY OR DEPRESSION, HOW DO WE GIVE THEM THE SKILL SET, HOW DO WE TREAT AND BUILD IN REMEDIATION SO THEY DON'T NEED THE ACCOMMODATIONS. >> Steve: DO YOU TEND TO LEAN TOWARDS RECOMMENDING ACCOMMODATIONS. >> Mohsan Beg: I THINK ONLY WHEN IT'S APPROPRIATE. FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MENTAL ILLNESS. FOR EXAMPLE, WE KNOW THIS IS THE AGE GROUP WHERE SEVERE MENTAL ILLNESS EMERGES, BIPOLAR DISORDER, SCHIZOPHRENIA. IN THOSE CASES, IN TERMS OF HELPING THEM MANAGE AN ILLNESS, ABSOLUTELY WE CAN MAKE THOSE
29:30 - 30:00 RECOMMENDATIONS OR ACCOMMODATIONS. >> Steve: CATHERINE, DO YOU HAVE A VIEW ON WHAT IT'S APPROPRIATE TO ACCOMMODATE THESE DIFFERENT SITUATIONS AND WHEN IT'S NOT? >> Catherine Peters: I GUESS WHAT I WOULD SAY ABOUT THAT IS TO ME IT'S NOT REALLY A QUESTION OF WHETHER BUT HOW, BECAUSE ACADEMIC INSTITUTIONS IN ONTARIO, IN CANADA, DO HAVE A DUTY TO ACCOMMODATE INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE DISABILITY-RELATED NEEDS. THEY DO HAVE PROCESSES IN PLACE, HOWEVER. I MEAN, SOMETIMES I HEAR RHETORIC THAT SORT OF SUGGESTS THAT ACCOMMODATIONS ARE HANDED
30:00 - 30:30 OUT MUCH LIKE CANDY, AND I KNOW SOME PEOPLE HAVE THAT PERCEPTION. BUT THE VAST MAJORITY OF ACADEMIC INSTITUTIONS THAT I DEAL WITH HAVE QUITE RIGOROUS PROCESSES FOR AT LEAST THOSE COMPLEX CASES WHERE THE NEEDS ARE NOT CLEAR AND THERE NEEDS TO PERHAPS BE A LITTLE DEEPER DIVE INTO MEDICAL INFORMATION, AS AN EXAMPLE. THEY DO HAVE RIGOROUS PROCESSES TO TRY AND DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THOSE ACCOMMODATIONS ARE, IN FACT, NEEDED. >> Steve: WHAT'S YOUR VIEW, HARA, ON REASONABLE ACCOMMODATION? >> Hara Estroff Marano: WELL, I'M -- I HAVE NO OBLIGATION TO A UNIVERSITY OR THE LEGAL CODE, SO
30:30 - 31:00 I SAY BLOW THE WHOLE THING UP. NO, JOKINGLY. IN A WAY, THAT'S WHAT I MEAN. I WANT TO GO BACK TO A COMMENT THAT MOHSAN MADE. EVERY YEAR MORE AND MORE -- YOU CITED THE FIGURE 67%. SOONER OR LATER, 67% INCREASE IS GOING TO BE 100% OF YOUR STUDENT POPULATION.
31:00 - 31:30 WE'RE USING A MODEL OF ONE STUDENT COMES IN, YOU ACCOMMODATE THEM, YOU TREAT THEM. MAYBE THAT IS NOT THE MOST APPROPRIATE MODEL FOR A UNIVERSITY. MAYBE WE SHOULD JUST SORT OF CALM DOWN AND SAY, "HEY, WAIT. LET'S ANALYSE THIS." AND MAYBE WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS SAY, OKAY, WE'VE GOT A LOT OF STUDENTS COMING IN. A LOT OF THEM DON'T HAVE THE EMOTION, COPING SKILLS FOR UNIVERSITY.
31:30 - 32:00 EVERYTHING'S A CRISIS. THEY BREAK DOWN ON WHATEVER FAULT LINE THEY HAPPEN TO BE PREDISPOSED TO AND HAVE THEIR PSYCHOTIC BREAK OR MANIC EPISODE OR WHAT HAVE YOU. I'M NOT BELITTLING THIS. THIS IS REAL. BUT MAYBE WE CAN PREVENT THIS. MAYBE THE UNIVERSITY, WITH ITS ABILITY TO EDUCATE AND USE ITS CURRICULUM AND EXTRACURRICULAR
32:00 - 32:30 AVAILABILITY, CAN TAKE A DIFFERENT APPROACH RATHER THAN BUILDING BIG BUCKETS AND CATCHING EACH PERSON INDIVIDUALLY, MAYBE IT SHOULD BE DELIVERING THE SKILLS THAT UNFORTUNATELY A GENERATION OF PARENTS HAS NOT FULLY IMPARTED TO THEIR KIDS. >> Steve: UNDERSTOOD. ALLYSON, LET ME DO A LITTLE Q AND A WITH YOU HERE BECAUSE I WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT YOUR RESOURCE CENTRE AT QUEEN'S DOES.
32:30 - 33:00 START THERE. WHAT'S ITS MISSION? >> Allyson Harrison: SO OUR MISSION IS TO PROVIDE PSYCHOEDUCATIONAL AND NEUROPSYCHOLOGICAL ASSESSMENTS TO STUDENTS WHO ARE ACCEPTED INTO ANY POSTSECONDARY INSTITUTION IN THE PROVINCE FROM OTTAWA AND BARRIE DOWN. AND THEN THERE'S A NORTHERN CENTRE THAT DOES THE NORTHERN HALF OF THE PROVINCE. WE DO THAT. WE DO TRAINING AND EDUCATION OF PROFESSIONALS, SO MOHSAN IS SOMEONE WHO COMES TO CONFERENCES AND DOES WORK FOR US. WE ALSO DO RESEARCH AND TEACHING.
33:00 - 33:30 AND WE SEE A LOT MORE STUDENTS NOW COMING TO US, HAVING BEEN ACCOMMODATED ALL THROUGH SCHOOL, AND THE QUESTION IS: WHAT'S A REASONABLE ACCOMMODATION NOW? >> Steve: LET'S DO AN EXAMPLE OF THAT. GIVE US AN EXAMPLE OF SOMEBODY WHO COMES TO YOU AND SAYS I NEED AN ACCOMMODATION FOR X, Y, AND Z. WHAT IS IT? >> Allyson Harrison: IT CAN VARY. BUT WHAT HAPPENS IS THAT, IN THE HIGH SCHOOL -- IN THE HIGH SCHOOL SYSTEM, THE GOAL OF ACCOMMODATION HAS BECOME TO MAKE SURE YOU PASS. TO MAKE SURE YOU SUCCEED.
33:30 - 34:00 AND SO, UNFORTUNATELY, A LOT OF PARENTS AND STUDENTS DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT THE HUMAN RIGHTS LEGISLATION THAT APPLIES TO COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES DOESN'T GUARANTEE THAT YOU WILL PASS BECAUSE YOU GOT AN ACCOMMODATION. ALL IT SAYS IS, YOU GET THE OPPORTUNITY TO GET TO THE STARTING LINE WITH EVERYONE ELSE, SO THERE WILL BE NO IMPEDIMENT TO YOU PARTICIPATING EQUALLY. BUT THERE'S NOTHING THAT SAYS THAT ONCE YOU'RE THERE, YOU HAVE TO PASS. >> Steve: HOW DO YOU KNOW IF THEY NEED IT OR IF THEY'RE JUST LOOKING FOR A LEG UP ON EVERYBODY ELSE?
34:00 - 34:30 >> Allyson Harrison: WELL, WHEN MY CRYSTAL BALL COMES IN, I'LL TELL YOU. BUT THAT'S I THINK THE BIG QUESTION THAT GETS ASKED OF US ALL THE TIME, IS HOW CAN YOU JUSTIFY THAT THIS IS FAIR TO THESE STUDENTS AND NOT OTHER STUDENTS, AND SOMETIMES THAT'S DIFFICULT BECAUSE SOMETIMES YOU DO HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE ASKING FOR THINGS THAT DON'T SEEM LIKE THEY'RE SUPPORTED BY, AS MOHSAN SAID, DON'T SEEM LIKE THEY'RE SUPPORTED BY ANY DATA, THEY'RE JUST MEANT TO SURE YOU GET A LEG UP OR SUCCEED.
34:30 - 35:00 >> Steve: WANT TO GIVE US AN EXAMPLE OF THE MOST EGREGIOUS ONE YOU'VE HEARD TO DATE? YOU PROBABLY DON'T. I WANT YOU TO ANYWAY. >> NO NAMES. >> Allyson Harrison: OH, NO, I WON'T GIVE NAMES. WELL, THERE WAS A STUDENT A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO WHO HAD BEEN GIVEN UNLIMITED TIME FOR ALL HER TESTS AND EXAMS IN HIGH SCHOOL AND WANTED THAT AT UNIVERSITY, AND SO -- >> Steve: UNLIMITED TIME. >> Allyson Harrison: UNLIMITED TIME. >> Steve: BECAUSE ... >> Allyson Harrison: WELL, BECAUSE A PSYCHOLOGIST HAD SAID THAT SHE HAD A LEARNING
35:00 - 35:30 DISABILITY. SOMETIMES SHE COULD TAKE A MONTH TO DO A TEST. SO SHE -- AND THIS IS ALL IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN BECAUSE THERE WAS A CASE THAT WAS BROUGHT TO HUMAN RIGHTS, BUT MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT EVENTUALLY WHAT HAPPENED IS SHE SAID, WELL, I'LL JUST TAKE IT -- A THREE-HOUR TEST IN THREE 12-HOUR SEGMENTS. WELL, YOU KNOW, TO ME, DEPENDING ON WHAT YOU WANT TO DO, THERE ARE A LOT OF PLACES WHERE YOU JUST CAN'T HAVE -- I MEAN, IF I'M A LAWYER, I CAN'T SAY I'M BILLING BY THE HOUR AND I GET
35:30 - 36:00 UNLIMITED TIME. >> Steve: RIGHT. IT DOESN'T QUITE WORK THAT WAY. >> Catherine Peters: THAT'S ALSO A CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF A COMPLEX CASE WHERE THERE ARE STRATEGIES AVAILABLE TO DEAL WITH SITUATIONS LIKE THAT. >> Allyson Harrison: HE ASKED FOR THE MOST EGREGIOUS. >> Catherine Peters: EXACTLY. THOSE ARE SOMETIMES THE KIND OF CASES THAT END IN DISPUTES BECAUSE THAT REQUEST IS SO FAR OUT OF THE BOX AND PROBABLY THE MEDICAL INFORMATION ON WHICH IT'S BASED IS SUBJECT TO SOME
36:00 - 36:30 PROBING SCRUTINY, AND YOU DO FIND -- >> Steve: DID YOU ASSENT TO THAT -- >> Allyson Harrison: IT WASN'T OUR UNIVERSITY. BUT WHAT WE SEE, AND I'M SURE YOU SEE THIS TOO, WE SEE A LOT MORE STUDENTS WHO HAVE BEEN GIVEN DOUBLE TIME AND CHEAT SHEETS FOR ALL THEIR TESTS AND EXAMPLES, AND AGAIN, WE'LL SEE PEOPLE WHO ARE GIVEN CHEAT SHEETS FOR ALL THEIR TESTS, EVEN THOUGH THERE'S NOTHING WRONG
36:30 - 37:00 WITH THEIR MEMORY. THEN IT BECOMES A QUESTION OF, IS THAT -- AN ACCOMMODATION IS SUPPOSED TO GIVE YOU AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO PARTICIPATE. IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO TILT IN YOUR FAVOUR SO THAT IT ENSURES YOU'RE GOING TO DO BETTER OR THAT YOU'LL SUCCEED. >> Hara Estroff Marano: THAT'S WHY I THINK WE SHOULD MAKE THE STARTING LINE FAIR FOR EVERYBODY AND EVERYBODY COMING IN SHOULD BE EXPOSED IN SOME WAY THAT SCHOOLS EXPLORE TO FIND
37:00 - 37:30 EFFECTIVE BUT THEY SHOULD ALL BE INSTRUCTED IN SOME WAY WITH THE SKILLS THAT THEY DON'T HAVE AND ALL BEEN BROUGHT UP TO SPEED. YOU KNOW, ARMIES ACROSS THE WORLD HAVE TO DEAL WITH THIS ALL THE TIME, AND THEY HAVE BASIC TRAINING. PEOPLE COME IN WITH VERY DIFFERENT SKILLS, BUT THEY ALL HAVE TO BE ABLE TO FUNCTION -- >> Steve: NO, I HEAR YOU, HARA, BUT IF, FOR EXAMPLE, IT WAS A STUDENT WHO WAS A QUADRIPLEGIC, FOR EXAMPLE, AND YOU WOULD SAY THIS STUDENT NEEDS SOME ACCOMMODATING BECAUSE HE OR SHE CAN'T TYPE LIKE ANYBODY ELSE TO DO THEIR ESSAYS.
37:30 - 38:00 THAT'S A REASONABLE ACCOMMODATION, WOULDN'T IT BE? >> Hara Estroff Marano: ABSOLUTELY. >> Steve: IN THAT CASE. >> Hara Estroff Marano: AND BLINDS STUDENTS HAVE ACCOMMODATIONS, OF COURSE. >> Mohsan Beg: FOR EXAMPLE, SOMETHING LIKE TEST ANXIETY, RIGHT? >> Steve: TEST ANXIETY. >> Mohsan Beg: FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU'RE SAYING, I GET SO ANXIOUS ON THE TEST THAT I CAN'T RECALL THE INFORMATION, I CAN'T REMEMBER WHAT I STUDIED. YOU KNOW, THE QUESTION IS, DOES THAT NECESSARILY NEED TO BE ACCOMMODATED FOR THE FOUR YEARS THEY'RE AT UNIVERSITY? >> Steve: WHAT'S THE ANSWER? >> Mohsan Beg: IT'S A TREATABLE CONDITION. WE'LL RECOMMEND AT OUR END INTERIM ACCOMMODATIONS FOR A SEMESTER WHILE YOU GET
38:00 - 38:30 TREATMENT. BECAUSE IT'S VERY TREATABLE. I DON'T THINK YOU'RE DOING THE PERSON ANY FAVOURS BY SAYING DON'T PARTICIPATE IN ANY TREATMENT AND DON'T, IN TERMS OF RESOLVE THE ISSUE, BUT FOR FOUR YEARS YOU CAN HAVE THIS ONGOING ACCOMMODATION. LET'S TREAT THE TEST ANXIETY SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO NECESSARILY FEEL ANXIOUS. >> Hara Estroff Marano: AND THE TREATMENT IS IMPARTING THE SKILL TO DEAL WITH THE ANXIETY. >> Mohsan Beg: ABSOLUTELY. >> Hara Estroff Marano: IT'S NOT, OH, WE'RE GIVING YOU A PILL SO THAT YOU CAN POP IT. YOU'RE GOING TO MEET A LOT OF CONDITIONS THAT ARE GOING TO INDUCE ANXIETY IN YOUR LIFE, AND
38:30 - 39:00 WE'RE GOING TO GIVE YOU A SKILL THAT YOU CAN PULL OUT. >> Mohsan Beg: EXACTLY. >> Hara Estroff Marano: -- ANY TIME YOU NEED IT, WHETHER IT'S A TEST OR NOT. >> Steve: SHELDON, LET'S DO THIS ON THE TOP OF PAGE 3 HERE. THIS IS FROM THE QUEEN'S UNIVERSITY LAW PROFESSOR BRUCE PARDY, WRITING IN THE EDUCATION AND LAW JOURNAL:
39:00 - 39:30 >> Steve: YES?
39:30 - 40:00 >> Mohsan Beg: YES AND NO. SPOKEN LIKE A TRUE PSYCHOLOGIST. FOR EXAMPLE, SOMEONE WHO HAS A READING DISABILITY, RIGHT? I THINK THE ACCOMMODATION HAS TO BE BASED ON, AT WHAT POINT DOES THE EXTRA TIME ALLOW THEM TO COMPLETE THE SAME NUMBER OF QUESTIONS AS SOMEONE WITHOUT A READING DISABILITY? RIGHT? SO IF I CAN ATTEMPT 25 QUESTIONS IN 30 MINUTES, HOW LONG DOES THIS PERSON NEED TO ATTEMPT 25
40:00 - 40:30 QUESTIONS? IS IT 40, 45? I THINK THE PROBLEM IS, WE REFLEXIVELY SAY DOUBLE TIME OR TIME AND A HALF WHEN THERE'S NO DATA BEHIND IT. THAT'S THE EMERGING FIELD. WE'RE TRYING TO FIND WHAT IS THAT SWEET SPOT? SO I DON'T AGREE IT GIVES THEM AN ADVANTAGE. I REMEMBER GIVING A TALK TO SOME OF THE LAW STUDENTS AND SOME PEOPLE WERE SAYING, OH, IT GIVES AN ADVANTAGE. THAT'S LIKE ME SAYING, OKAY, I HAVE THESE GLASSES AND SOMEHOW I CAN SEE BETTER THAN YOU CAN
40:30 - 41:00 BECAUSE I HAVE THE GLASSES. NO, MY BRAIN DOESN'T PROCESS THE VISUAL IMAGE SO I NEED THIS ACCOMMODATION ONLY TO SEE AS WELL AS YOU. I'M NOT SEEING BETTER THAN YOU. SO I DISAGREE. BUT I THINK HE DOES HAVE A VALID POINT THAT I THINK NOW THE ONUS IS GOING TO BE ON INSTITUTIONS AND PROGRAMS, WHAT ARE THE ESSENTIAL SKILLS OF THAT PROFESSION THAT ARE REQUIRED? SO WHAT ARE -- YOU KNOW, TO DEFINE THOSE SO YOU CAN HAVE THESE DISCUSSIONS, RIGHT? SO FOR LAW, FOR MEDICINE, FOR NURSING. BECAUSE WE'RE BUMPING INTO THESE, THEY WANT EXTRA TIME AND YOU CAN'T HAVE EXTRA TIME AS A
41:00 - 41:30 NURSE. IS THAT TRUE OR NOT TRUE? WHAT ARE THE ESSENTIAL SKILLS FOR THAT PROFESSION? >> Christie Blatchford: THAT'S HAPPENING. THAT'S BEEN HAPPENING FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS. ONE OF THE AREAS IN WHICH -- I THINK THE POINT THAT'S BEEN MADE IS ESSENTIAL, THAT ACCOMMODATIONS IS ABOUT LEVELING THE PLAYING FIELD, IT'S NOT CREATING UNFAIR ADVANTAGE. THE ISSUE IS THAT SHORTCUTS, IT MAYBE ISN'T THE BEST WORD, BUT INSTITUTIONS HAVE COME UP WITH ROUGH AND READY TOOLS FOR ADDRESSING WHAT CAN SOMETIMES BE SOME VERY COMPLEX ISSUES.
41:30 - 42:00 BUT ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS I WOULD NOTE ABOUT THE COMMENT THAT WAS READ BACK WAS THAT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT ACCOMMODATION, AS IT'S LEGALLY CONCEIVED OF YESTERDAY, ENCOURAGES AND INDEED REQUIRES INSTITUTIONS TO DO IS REFLECT ON THE WAY THEY EVALUATE DEMONSTRATION OF MASTERY. SO WHEN I WAS A STUDENT, PRACTICALLY EVERY EXAM I EVER WROTE WAS A MULTIPLE CHOICE TEST. IT HAD TO BE DONE ON THIS DAY AND IT HAD TO BE FINISHED IN THREE HOURS. ARE THERE OTHER WAYS THAT WE CAN ACTUALLY GET AT WHEN THE INDIVIDUAL HAS MASTERED LEARNING
42:00 - 42:30 OUTCOMES. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THIS IN A CONTEXT WHERE THE ASSUMPTION IS KIND OF THAT WE'RE DEALING WITH FOLKS WHO ARE NOT PERHAPS AMONG THE MOST SIGNIFICANTLY IMPACTED THAT SOME OF OUR INSTITUTIONS SEE WHO ARE DEALING WITH EMOTIONAL ISSUES AND OTHER THINGS THAT ARE SIGNIFICANT BUT AT THE SAME TIME -- I MEAN, THERE ARE FOLKS WITHIN THESE INSTITUTIONS WHO REALLY DO NEED
42:30 - 43:00 ACCOMMODATION AND SUPPORTS IN ORDER TO BE PLACED ON A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. >> Steve: LET ME PICK UP ON THAT. HOW MUCH OF THIS IS GOING ON? IN YOUR TYPICAL CLASS OF 300 STUDENTS IN A LECTURE HALL; HOW MANY OF THOSE 300 WOULD BE GETTING SOME KIND OF ACCOMMODATION IN ORDER TO LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD? ANY GUESS? >> Allyson Harrison: OH, IT WOULD DEPEND. I KNOW IN OUR -- AT QUEEN'S, I THINK, IN A CLASS OF 300, THERE WOULD PROBABLY BE 40? >> Steve: IS THAT A LOT OR A LITTLE?
43:00 - 43:30 >> OVER 10%. NOT THAT MUCH HIGHER OF THE PERCENTAGE OF SOME OF THOSE DISORDERS IN THE GENERAL POPULATION, RIGHT? >> Steve: SO THAT SOUNDS REASONABLE TO YOU? >> Allyson Harrison: WELL, AGAIN, I THINK THAT WHAT MOHSAN IS SAYING IS THAT SOMETIMES -- AND THIS GOES BACK TO HARA'S POINT -- IS THAT SOMETIMES WE HAVE STUDENTS WHO I THINK HAVE BEEN TOLD SO OFTEN, YOU'VE GOT THIS PROBLEM, YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT, WE JUST HAVE TO ACCOMMODATE YOU. THEY DON'T KNOW THAT THERE ARE SOME THINGS THEY COULD DO FOR THEMSELVES TO MINIMIZE THE
43:30 - 44:00 IMPACT THAT THEIR DISABILITY HAS ON THEIR EQUAL PARTICIPATION. FOR EXAMPLE, TEST ANXIETY. IF YOU ASK ANY PSYCHOLOGIST, WHAT'S THE EASIEST DISORDER FOR ME TO TREAT. IF SOMEONE WALKS IN THE DOOR, I'M GOING TO SAY, OH, THANK GOODNESS, I CAN DEAL WITH THAT ANXIETY IS THE DISORDER THAT WE CAN TREAT BEST. TO ME IT'S REALLY SAD WHEN WE SEE PEOPLE WHO -- I SEE LOTS OF STUDENTS WHO NO ONE HAS ACTUALLY TAUGHT THEM WAYS TO MANAGE THEIR ANXIETY.
44:00 - 44:30 AND WE ALSO KNOW THAT EVERYONE HAS TO HAVE ANXIETY IN ORDER TO PERFORM AT THEIR BEST. >> Steve: RIGHT. >> Allyson Harrison: YOU ASK ANY PERSON BEFORE AN OLYMPIC EVENT, THEIR ANXIETY IS REALLY HIGH. >> Steve: IF YOU'RE NOT FEELING A FEW BUTTERFLIES, SOMETHING IS WRONG. >> Allyson Harrison: MY FRIEND SAYS IF YOU'RE NOT ANXIOUS BEFORE A TEST, YOU'RE PROBABLY DEAD, RIGHT? IF YOU HAVEN'T LEARNED HOW TO MANAGE YOUR ANXIETY PROPERLY AND ANY ANXIETY IS TOO MUCH ANXIETY, YOU'RE OFF THE DEEP END. SO FOR SOME STUDENTS TOO, THEY'VE NEVER SORT OF DISCOVERED WHAT THE LIMITS OF THEIR
44:30 - 45:00 DISABILITY ARE SO THEY CAN SAY, DO YOU KNOW WHAT? I KNOW IF I'M DOING A WRITTEN TEST, HANDWRITING IS HARD FOR ME. I'M GOING TO NEED MORE TIME UNLESS I CAN USE A COMPUTER. AND THEN I CAN DO IT AS WELL AS SOMEONE ELSE. BUT INSTEAD THEY THINK THEY NEED ACCOMMODATIONS IN EVERY SINGLE TEST FOR EVERYTHING WITHOUT KNOWING WHY. >> Mohsan Beg: AND INSTITUTIONS ARE ALSO AT THE RESPONSIBILITY WHERE SOME PEOPLE ARE GETTING CREATIVE. A PROFESSOR, I BELIEVE, I FORGET HER NAME, AND I APOLOGIZE, AT RYERSON.
45:00 - 45:30 SHE SET UP HER COURSE WHERE IT'S NOT MULTIPLE CHOICE FOR EVERYBODY. SHE HAS A MENU TO PICK FROM. YOU HAVE THREE PAPERS OR THREE EXAMS OR THREE GROUP PROJECTS OR WHATEVER. AS LONG AS IT ADDS UP TO 100%, YOU PICK. >> Steve: SO YOU GO FOR YOUR STRENGTHS, OBVIOUSLY? >> Mohsan Beg: EXACTLY. YOU HAVE THAT OPEN TO ALL STUDENTS, RIGHT? THAT'S THE IDEA. >> Steve: LET ME TRY THIS. HARA, THERE'S A UNIVERSITY IN THE PROVINCE OF QUéBEC CALLED CONCORDIA, AND NOT LONG AGO, THEY HAD A BOMB SCARE. I MEAN, THERE WAS NO BOMB BUT THERE WAS A BOMB SCARE.
45:30 - 46:00 SO THE UNIVERSITY SAID, WE RECOGNIZE THAT BECAUSE OF THIS BOMB SCARE, SOME OF OUR STUDENTS MAY HAVE FELT TRAUMATIZED BECAUSE OF IT, AND SO IF YOU CAN'T GET YOUR ASSIGNMENTS IN ON TIME BECAUSE YOU ARE TRAUMATIZED BY THIS BOMB SCARE WHICH DIDN'T HAPPEN, WE WILL ACCOMMODATE THAT SITUATION FOR YOU. WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THEIR DECISION? >> Hara Estroff Marano: WELL, I THINK IT STARTS WITH THE WORD "TRAUMA" AND WHAT WE HAVE IS THIS VAST CONTAMINATION OF THE LANGUAGE SO THAT NOW A TRAUMA ONCE HAD A VERY SPECIFIC
46:00 - 46:30 MEANING. THERE ARE SOME THINGS THAT ARE LEGITIMATELY TRAUMATIZED. BUT NOW WE'VE HAD THIS METASTASIZING OF THE NOTION SO THAT LITTLE DISCOMF0RTING EVENTS ARE TRAUMATIC, AND MISUSING THE LANGUAGE IS ACTUALLY VERY CRITICAL IN THIS BECAUSE IT
46:30 - 47:00 DICTATES HOW YOU SHOULD RESPOND AND WHAT YOU SHOULD DO AND HOW YOU SHOULD FEEL ABOUT THIS EVENT. SO WHEN YOU START OUT BY ASSUMING THIS IS A TRAUMA FOR EVERYONE, YOU'RE IN A SENSE TELLING EVERYBODY THAT AN EVENT OF THIS MAGNITUDE -- WHICH IS NOT PLEASANT. WE ALL AGREE ON THAT.
47:00 - 47:30 AND IT'S LESS PLEASANT FOR SOME THAN OTHERS AND MAY AFFECT A FEW. BUT NOT NECESSARILY EVERYBODY, AND I'M NOT SO SURE IT SHOULD BE CALLED A TRAUMA AND I'M NOT SURE IT SHOULD BE DEALT WITH AS IF IT WERE SOME REALLY SERIOUS CONDITION FOR WHICH EVERYBODY NEEDS TREATMENT BECAUSE THAT'S JUST ANOTHER WAY OF INFANTILIZING EVERYBODY AND TELLING EVERYBODY, YOU REALLY CAN'T HANDLE THIS. YOU REALLY DON'T HAVE THE SKILLS FOR HANDLING THIS. >> Steve: THAT WAS INTERESTING.
47:30 - 48:00 THESE WEREN'T STUDENTS COMING FORWARD AND SAYING I NEED THE TIME BECAUSE, THIS IS THE INSTITUTION OFFERING IT. >> Hara Estroff Marano: IT SHOULD BE THE OTHER WAY AROUND WHERE THE DOOR IS OPEN AND, YOU KNOW, FOR SOMEONE WHO NEEDS IT, MAYBE -- I'M NOT EVEN SURE THAT'S THE BEST WAY. I WOULD WANT TO TALK TO OTHER PEOPLE TO FIND OUT WHAT BEST PRACTICES ARE IN THIS KIND OF A SITUATION, BUT I DON'T THINK THE ASSUMPTION SHOULD BE MADE THAT, OKAY, EVERYBODY, WE'VE ALL BEEN TRAUMATIZED AND YOU'RE ALL WIMPS.
48:00 - 48:30 I MEAN, THAT'S THE UNSPOKEN ASSUMPTION HERE AND YOU CAN'T DEAL WITH THIS. >> Steve: MOHSAN, HOW WOULD WINDSOR HAVE HANDLED THAT IF IT HAPPENED OVER THERE? >> Mohsan Beg: THERE ARE IMPORTANT POINTS. WE HAVE A CHANGE IN REALITY IN THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES AND FAMILIES AND PARENTS. THERE'S ALMOST AN EXPECTATION OF THE OVER CONSUMER MODEL, THERE'S A LOT MORE TALK OF CUSTOMER SERVICE, YOU HAVEN'T HEARD OF BEFORE AT UNIVERSITIES. PARENTS ARE CALLING, WHAT ARE YOU DOING FOR MY KID?
48:30 - 49:00 YOU KNOW? IT'S ALMOST LIKE THERE'S A BIT OF A FLIP BACK. PRIOR TO THE 1960s, WE HAD THAT IN LOCO PARENTIS, THE UNIVERSITY IS A SUBSTITUTE PARENT. WE'VE MOVED AWAY FROM THAT. PARENTS ARE WHAT ARE YOU DOING AROUND ALCOHOL, WHAT ARE YOU DOING AROUND SEXUAL ASSAULT ON CAMPUSES, WHAT ARE YOU DOING WHEN THERE'S A BOMB THREAT. SO UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES ARE OBLIGATED TO SAY, WHAT CAN WE DO? THERE'S AN EFFORT TO SAY -- AND I THINK IT HAS TO BE DRIVEN BY, IS THIS THE BEST RESPONSE?
49:00 - 49:30 I THINK THE REFLECTIVE RESPONSE IS WHAT CAN WE DO RIGHT AWAY TO SUPPORT OUR STUDENTS AND THERE'S AN EXPECTATION WE DO THIS. >> Hara Estroff Marano: REFLEXIVE ARE NOT ALWAYS THE BEST RESPONSES. WHAT SEEMS INTUITIVE IS NOT NECESSARILY THE BEST. >> Steve: ALLYSON, I WONDER WHETHER OR NOT THE BETTER POSITION FOR CONCORDIA TO HAVE TAKEN IN THIS PLACE WAS -- YOU KNOW, SOMEBODY OBVIOUSLY CALLED IN SOMETHING. IT WAS A FALSE ALARM. NOTHING HAPPENED. SO NOTHING, EVERYBODY. THERE'S NOTHING TO SEE HERE. MOVE ALONG.
49:30 - 50:00 GET BACK TO CLASSES. GET YOUR ESSAYS IN ON TIME. GET YOUR REPORTS IN ON TIME. THERE'S NO ACCOMMODATION NECESSARY HERE. IS THAT AN INAPPROPRIATE WAY TO RESPOND TO THIS? >> Allyson Harrison: THIS COMES BACK TO WHAT HARA WAS SAYING THAT YOU MAY WELL HAVE HAD SOME STUDENTS WHO CAME FROM WAR-TORN COUNTRIES WHERE, FOR THEM, THIS DOES BRING BACK MEMORIES OF A TRAUMA, YOU KNOW, THAT IT'S SOMETHING THAT DOES CAUSE A GREAT DEAL OF DISTRESS BECAUSE THEY'VE LIVED THROUGH THAT. YOU DON'T WANT TO -- AGAIN, IT'S HARD TO MAKE A BLANKET STATEMENT.
50:00 - 50:30 THERE'S ALWAYS SOMEONE WHO FALLS THROUGH THE CRACKS. THERE ARE ALWAYS EXCEPTIONS TO THE RULE. BUT I DO THINK -- I AGREE WITH HARA THAT INSTEAD OF SORT OF HAVING THIS KNEE-JERK, YOU GUYS CAN'T COPE AT ALL SO WE'RE JUST GOING TO DO THIS FOR EVERYBODY, I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE BEST ANSWER EITHER. IT JUST REINFORCES FOR A LOT OF STUDENTS, OH, I CAN'T COPE. I JUST DON'T HAVE THE SKILLS TO DEAL WITH THIS. AND I DIDN'T REALIZE -- THE FACT THAT THERE COULD HAVE BEEN A BOMB SCARE, THAT IS SOMETHING I
50:30 - 51:00 SHOULD BE REALLY UPSET ABOUT. >> Steve: AT THE END OF THE DAY YOU ARE GOING TO GET A PIECE OF PAPER ON GRADUATION DAY THAT SAYS YOU HAVE GRADUATED BECAUSE YOU HAVE MET ALL THE REQUIREMENTS THAT THIS UNIVERSITY PUTS ON YOU IN ORDER TO GET YOUR DEGREE. AND THAT PIECE OF PAPER IS SUPPOSED TO STAND FOR SOMETHING. AND I WONDER WHETHER THERE'S A PART OF YOU THAT IS AT ALL CONCERNED THAT THE PIECE OF PAPER IS SUPPOSED TO MEAN THE SAME THING FOR EVERYBODY WHO GETS IT BUT IN FACT IF YOU MAKE SO MANY ACCOMMODATIONS, IT'S NOT, ACTUALLY. DO YOU WORRY ABOUT THAT? >> Catherine Peters: I DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT PERSONALLY, I GUESS, BECAUSE I AM AN ADVOCATE
51:00 - 51:30 OF ACCESSIBLE EDUCATION AND I DO BELIEVE THAT -- ALWAYS POINT TO CIRCUMSTANCES THAT PERHAPS CAST SOME LIGHT ON HOW THINGS COULD HAVE BEEN DONE BETTER. I BELIEVE THERE ARE LOTS OF CASES WHERE THESE ISSUES ARE DEALT WITH VERY SUCCESSFULLY AND THAT THE INDIVIDUAL GRADUATES AND RECEIVES THE DEGREE THAT THEY'RE EVERY BIT ENTITLED TO. I MEAN, I HAVE TO SAY PERSONALLY THAT DOESN'T TROUBLE ME TOO MUCH AND I ALSO KNOW THAT THE ONE THING LEGALLY AND IN TERMS OF PEOPLE I DEAL WITH AT INSTITUTIONS, THAT THEY DO HOLD
51:30 - 52:00 THE LINE ON, AS MUCH AS THEY CAN, IS YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO DEMONSTRATE MASTERY OF THE LEARNING OUTCOMES, AND THAT IS -- I MEAN, IN DIFFERENT TYPES OF PROGRAMS, THAT INVOLVES DIFFERENT THINGS. THERE ARE MORE AND MORE EXPERIENTIAL PROGRAM WHERE THE STUDENT HAS TO GO INTO A WORK ENVIRONMENT AND DEMONSTRATE WHETHER OR NOT THEY CAN DO THAT. IN SOMETHING LIKE LIBERAL ARTS, THAT MAY BE MORE DIFFICULT.
52:00 - 52:30 I HAVE TO SAY AS A GRADUATE, THERE ARE A LOTS OF PEOPLE WHO HAD ACCOMMODATIONS WHO NEVER HANDED IN AN ASSIGNMENT ON TIME, RIGHT? I SAY THAT NOT TO BE FLIP, BUT THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A CERTAIN SPECTRUM OF COMMITMENT TO PROGRAM AND PERFORMANCE AND EVERYBODY GETS THE SAME DEGREE AT THE END OF THE DAY. >> Steve: OKAY. IN WHICH CASE, HARA, WHAT HAPPENS TO THE STUDENT WHO HAS BEEN ACCOMMODATED, LET'S SAY MORE OFTEN THAN NOT DURING THE COURSE OF HIS OR HER UNIVERSITY CAREER, GRADUATES, AND THEN HITS
52:30 - 53:00 THE WORKPLACE? >> Hara Estroff Marano: WELL, I'VE SEEN THEM. I'M ASSUMING THAT EVERYBODY ELSE HERE HAS DEALT WITH THEM IN SOME WAY, AND SOME OF THE SAME PROBLEMS FOLLOW THEM INTO THE WORKPLACE. I CAN EDIT A PIECE OF COPY WITHOUT REGARD TO WHOSE COPY IT IS, AND FIVE MINUTES LATER, I'LL EDIT A PIECE AND IT'S GOT A LOT OF MARKS ON IT, AND I WILL GIVE IT BACK TO THE YOUNG PERSON AND
53:00 - 53:30 FIND HER THREE MINUTES LATER SOBBING IN THE LADIES ROOM. THERE'S NO SENSE THAT -- THERE'S NO TOLERANCE FOR IMPERFECTION. EVERYBODY GETS EDITED. I GET EDITED. EVERYBODY NEEDS IT.
53:30 - 54:00 IN MANY WAYS -- THE HOPE IS THAT THEY'RE GOING TO SHAPE UP PRETTY SOON. THERE ARE A LOT OF PROBLEMS THAT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT, ABOUT MILLENNIALS WHO HAPPEN TO BE THIS GENERATION IN THE WORKPLACE AND I'VE SEEN THEM AND LOTS OF OTHER PEOPLE HAVE SEEN THEM. DO YOU WANT ME TO ENUMERATE -- >> Steve: I WANT YOU TO TELL ME, IF THEIR PARENTS AREN'T -- >> Hara Estroff Marano: THE PARENTS OUGHT TO COME TO THE JOB. >> Steve: IF THE PARENTS OR THE UNIVERSITIES WON'T SHAPE THEM UP AND THEY COME TO THE
54:00 - 54:30 WORKPLACE -- >> Catherine Peters: THERE ARE ACCOMMODATIONS IN THE WORKPLACE EITHER. >> Allyson Harrison: FOR YOUR PARENTS TO COME WITH YOU? >> Steve: THAT SOUNDS A BIT MUCH. >> Catherine Peters: WE'RE ALL CONSCIOUS OF THIS IDEA BUT IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT TO STRESS THAT THERE IS KIND OF A BROADER DISCUSSION GOING ON ABOUT DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION IN THE WORKPLACE, AND THAT DOES INCLUDE A RECOGNITION THAT THERE HAS TO BE SOME -- OR THERE SHOULD BE SOME MEETING IN THE MIDDLE, RIGHT? SO THAT IT'S NOT JUST A QUESTION OF REQUIRING YOUNG PEOPLE ENTERING THE WORK FORCE TO
54:30 - 55:00 ADHERE TO STANDARDS THAT HAVE BEEN IN PLACE SINCE OUR GRANDPARENTS WERE CHILDREN, THAT THERE SHOULD BE A DIALOGUE BETWEEN THE TWO, IN THE SAME WAY AS WE WERE DESCRIBING WHEN WE TALK ABOUT EVALUATION IN THE UNIVERSITY SETTING, THAT THERE MIGHT BE A DIALOGUE ABOUT WHETHER THERE'S DIFFERENT WAYS TO ACHIEVE THE SAME OUTCOME. >> Steve: AN EXAMPLE THAT WE MIGHT KNOW RATHER WELL IN THIS BUILDING. THIS PROGRAM AIRS FOR THE FIRST TIME AT 8:00 AT NIGHT AND IT'S REPEATED AT 11:00. IF SOMEBODY WANTED A REASONABLE ACCOMMODATION, WHICH SOUNDED SOMETHING LIKE, YOU KNOW, I'M
55:00 - 55:30 JUST NOT SURE I CAN GET IT DONE BY 8:00 TONIGHT. I MIGHT NEED UNTIL 8:30. THAT'S NOT ON. YOU'VE GOT TO DRAW A LINE SOMEWHERE, DON'T YOU? >> Catherine Peters: I'M NOT SAYING THERE AREN'T SOME REQUIREMENTS THAT HAVE TO BE MET. THAT'S NOT MY PERSPECTIVE. I MEAN, YOU CAN IMAGINE SITUATIONS, IF YOU WANT TO GET CREATIVE ABOUT IT, WHERE THERE MIGHT BE A SLIGHTLY LONGER TIME FRAME TO GET FROM POINT A TO POINT B. I DON'T NECESSARILY IF TAKING THE DISCUSSION IN THAT DIRECTION IS PRODUCTIVE.
55:30 - 56:00 THERE ARE SOME ACCOMMODATIONS IN THE WORKPLACE THAT HAVE TO BE ACHIEVED -- A DEADLINE, ABSOLUTELY. I WORK IN A PROFESSION THAT'S ALL ABOUT DEADLINES. I GUESS WHAT I AM SAYING IS THERE IS ALSO IN THAT ENVIRONMENT OPPORTUNITIES TO PROBLEM-SOLVE. >> Allyson Harrison: IT DEPENDS ON THE JOB. THERE WAS A CASE A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO IN THE STATES OF A MEDICAL STUDENT WHO WAS BLIND WHO WANTED AN ACCOMMODATION. HE WANTED TO BE A SURGEON. HE WANTED AN ACCOMMODATION OF HAVING A SURGEON DESIGNATE TO GO WITH HIM IN THE OPERATING ROOM
56:00 - 56:30 AND HE WOULD TELL THIS DESIGNATE WHAT THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO DO. >> Steve: WAS HE GRANTED THAT? >> Allyson Harrison: HE WAS NOT. IT COMES BACK TO CATHERINE'S POINT. YOU DON'T HAVE TO ACCOMMODATE A CENTRAL QUESTION OF THAT ACTIVITY OR TASK. UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES, UP UNTIL NOW, WE HAVE SAID BECAUSE WE SAID SO. THE PROFESSOR SAYS BECAUSE I SAID SO. RATHER THAN LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT IT.
56:30 - 57:00 MY TEST HAS ALWAYS BEEN TO SAY, IF YOU HAD A CONFIDENT, CAPABLE PERSON OUT IN THE WORK FORCE DOING THIS JOB OR TASK AND THEN THEY HAD AN ACCIDENT, GOD FORBID, WHERE THEY NOW COULD NO LONGER READ OR WRITE AS QUICKLY, COULD THEY STILL FUNCTION IN THAT JOB? IF THE ANSWER IS YES, THEN THAT'S A REASONABLE ACCOMMODATION. BUT IF YOU SAID, NO, ONE OF THE CENTRAL REQUIREMENTS OF BEING A SURGEON IS YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO SEE WHETHER THAT'S A VEIN OR A NERVE. THEN ONCE YOU LOSE YOUR EYESIGHT, YOU CAN'T ACCOMMODATE FOR THAT. THERE ARE LOTS OF THINGS THAT YOU CAN, NOW, WITH TECHNOLOGY -- >> BUT NOT ALL THINGS.
57:00 - 57:30 >> Allyson Harrison: THAT'S RIGHT. >> Steve: I DO HAVE TO SAY ONE OF THE ACCOMMODATIONS THEY MAKE AT THIS PLACE HERE, IS WHEN TIME IS UP, I HAVE TO SAY TIME IS UP. >> Allyson Harrison: THAT WAS A GOOD SEGUE. >> Steve: NOT BAD. I LEARNED A COUPLE OF TRICKS OVER THE YEARS. I WANT TO THANK ALL OF OUR GUESTS COMING FROM NEAR AND FAR TO BE HERE TONIGHT. ALLYSON HARRISON FROM QUEEN'S, MOHSAN BEG FROM WINDSOR, CATHERINE PETERS FROM THE LAW FIRM HICKS MORLEY, AND HARA ESTROFF MARANO FROM NEW YORK CITY, PSYCHOLOGY TODAY'S EDITOR
57:30 - 58:00 AT LARGE. IT WAS GREAT TO HAVE ALL OF YOU ON TVO WITH US HERE TONIGHT. >> (ALL) THANK YOU.