Unveiling Iglesia ni Cristo's Beliefs and Theological Rebuttals
Sam Shamoun on Iglesia ni Kristo (manalo) : a Filipino cult
Estimated read time: 1:20
Summary
In this comprehensive critique, Sam Shamoun addresses Iglesia ni Cristo (INC), labeling it as a Filipino cult founded by Felix Manalo. Shamoun is joined by a former INC member who reveals how he stealthily converted to Catholicism. Together, they delve into the church's unique theological positions, particularly their Unitarian beliefs that negate the divinity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit's personhood. Shamoun not only challenges INC's interpretations of key biblical texts but also arms listeners with counter-arguments rooted in scripture, underscoring the need for a nuanced understanding of the Christian Trinity against INC's simplistic narratives.
Highlights
Sam labels Iglesia ni Cristo as a cult, started by Felix Manalo, critiquing its fundamental doctrines. ⚡
A former member shares his secret conversion to Catholicism, showcasing personal struggles within INC. 😯
Shamoun dissects INC’s belief about Jesus being merely human, not divine, and the Holy Spirit being just a force. 🎙️
A focus is placed on how INC misinterprets biblical passages like Revelation and Colossians to fit their theology. 📘
Shamoun emphasizes the traditional Christian doctrine of the Trinity in contrast to INC’s Unitarian stance. ✝️
Key Takeaways
Sam Shamoun conducts an engaging, critical analysis of Iglesia ni Cristo's theology, questioning its legitimacy as a Christian denomination. 🎯
A former INC member shares his journey, highlighting internal conflicts and theological confusion. 😲
Shamoun uses scriptural exegesis to challenge INC's misinterpretations, focusing on the nature of Jesus and the concept of the Trinity. 📖
Listeners are encouraged to arm themselves with biblical knowledge to counter INC's arguments effectively. 🛡️
The discussion reaffirms the complexity of biblical theology against INC's simplistic claims. 🤔
Overview
In this thought-provoking discussion, Sam Shamoun calls into question the core tenets of Iglesia ni Cristo, labeling it as a cult started by Felix Manalo. Shamoun is joined by a former member of the church who shares his journey from INC to Catholicism. The former member's story adds a personal dimension, highlighting the challenges faced by those in the church who are in conflict with its teachings.
Shamoun rigorously examines INC's theological positions, particularly its denial of the Trinity and its impact on the divinity of Christ and the identity of the Holy Spirit. He contrasts these beliefs with traditional Christian doctrine, using a detailed exegesis of key biblical texts to argue against INC’s interpretations. The conversation serves as a guide for listeners on how to address and counter these views effectively.
The discussion not only critiques INC's doctrinal positions but also emphasizes the importance of understanding and articulating the complexities of biblical theology. Through targeted scriptural analysis, Shamoun equips his audience with arguments that underscore the depth and nuance of the Trinity, challenging Iglesia ni Cristo's simplified religious narrative.
Chapters
00:00 - 03:00: Introduction to the Cult: Iglesia ni Cristo The Introduction to the Cult: Iglesia ni Cristo chapter talks about the foundation of Iglesia ni Cristo, a movement initiated by a Filipino named Felix Manalo. Manalo claimed to have a divine calling, citing prophecies in the Book of Isaiah and asserting that Jesus was merely a man. The narrative suggests skepticism towards such claims and hints at controversy surrounding the interpretation of religious texts by the group.
03:00 - 07:00: Beliefs About the Godhead Sam initiates a conversation with a person who has questions about the Iglesia ni Cristo faith. The interaction reveals that the person used to be a member of Iglesia ni Cristo, and has since left the religious group, referring to it as a cult. This introduction sets the stage for discussing beliefs about the nature of the Godhead from both an insider's and outsider's perspective.
07:00 - 18:00: Revelation and Interpretation of 'First and Last' In the chapter titled 'Revelation and Interpretation of 'First and Last',' a conversation unfolds where an individual, likely named Sam, discusses religious experiences and beliefs. The discussion reveals that Sam joined the Catholic Church covertly, without informing their parents. A topic of interest is the doctrine of the godhead, with references to a figure named Felix Manilow who is associated with a prophecy in the book of Isaiah and the starting of a cult. The dialogue hints at a questioning of beliefs and an appeal for divine guidance to clarify theological complexities.
18:00 - 28:00: Hebrews 1 and Its Interpretation The chapter titled 'Hebrews 1 and Its Interpretation' discusses the theological beliefs of Ecclesia ni Cristo regarding the nature of the godhead. Unlike the traditional Christian doctrine of the Trinity, Ecclesia ni Cristo adheres to a Unitarian belief system. This means that they recognize only the Father as a divine person, consider Jesus as merely a man who should be worshipped because the Father commands it, and view the Holy Spirit as an impersonal force.
28:00 - 33:00: Understanding 'Firstborn' The chapter delves into the theological interpretation of 'Firstborn' within a Christian context. It highlights a discussion where Jesus is perceived as a glorified man, the spirit represents the Father's force and presence, and the Father alone is considered God. The dialogue indicates a readiness to assist others in understanding or interpreting religious texts, suggesting a communal and supportive approach to exploring faith.
33:00 - 45:00: Jesus as the First and Last, Alpha and Omega This chapter discusses a dialogue about the interpretation of Jesus as the 'First and Last' or 'Alpha and Omega', particularly in the context of a question posed to English and Crystal ministers. The ministers respond with a rebuttal sourced from their website in an attempt to clarify their perspective on the matter.
45:00 - 54:00: Nehemiah 9 and Isaiah 44: God Alone as Creator In this chapter, the speaker addresses the argument regarding blasphemy against God, specifically focusing on the claim that Christ, by stating he is the Alpha and Omega, is not claiming equality with God. The speaker challenges this interpretation by engaging with the distinction made between Christ being 'first and last' and God being 'first and last.' They reference Colossians 1:15 to support their point, emphasizing that Christ being the 'firstborn of all creatures' is central to the debate. The speaker questions and seeks to dispute this argument, urging for its deconstruction.
54:00 - 71:00: Psalm 102 and Its Application to Jesus The chapter titled 'Psalm 102 and Its Application to Jesus' delves into the interpretation of scriptural references, particularly Colossians 1:15, to differentiate between God and Christ. The discussion tackles the common argument regarding the 'firstborn' concept in theology, emphasizing the need for careful analysis of the texts. Moreover, the chapter addresses the link between Jesus being 'the first' and 'the last,' encouraging a deeper understanding of these terms in context, despite different scriptural backgrounds.
71:00 - 91:00: Conclusion and Summary The chapter discusses the concept of Judgement Day and the role of Christ as the final judge at the end of the world. It emphasizes that God has ordained Christ to be the final judge because He was the first created by God and will be equipped to judge the whole world.
Sam Shamoun on Iglesia ni Kristo (manalo) : a Filipino cult Transcription
00:00 - 00:30 Cristo this is a a cult started by a Filipino manello where he supposedly sent by God and prophesied in Isaiah and he said Jesus is just the man all right but they'll they'll turn that against you brother so let's wait for this brother to show up all right I hope you guys are enjoying this stick around Felix manilo enjoy the ride here he is
00:30 - 01:00 you there Hi Sam yeah so I just told them you have questions about Ecclesia ni Cristo yes as a former English Crystal a member I used to ask a lot of questions hold on not too fast so they can't this guy used to be an Ecclesia ni Cristo member the Lord Jesus Almighty in his love enable him to escape so you're part of the cult well it's complicated
01:00 - 01:30 it's complicated Sam well uh I joined the Catholic Church behind my parents back so they don't know I'm Catholic actually oh my goodness you're in trouble all right well just tell them what they believe about the godhead because a lot of people don't know about Felix Manilow that he believes he was prophesied in Isaiah and he started this cold and what do they believe about the godhead and then ask me your questions and we'll pray by the grace of God's spirit that'll help me to help you and I have
01:30 - 02:00 to retitle this as well so that people know this is part one and that I'm addressing Ecclesia ni Cristo go ahead tell them what they believe about the godhead so they don't believe in the Chinese Trinity at all uh they're unitarians meaning that they believe the father is the only person Jesus is a man but you should worship Jesus because the father says so wild and the believer the holy spirit is just a force and nothing
02:00 - 02:30 personal so that's the belief for you so Jesus is just the man but he's glorified the spirit is the Father's force and presence yes Sam that's correct and the father alone is God all right so now what are your questions how can I help you sir let me know how to help you get my water but you have your Bible ready or you want me to read for you uh please refer me oh Jake can I also cook you dinner all right go ahead
02:30 - 03:00 well my question was so I've asked question to these English and Crystal ministers and I've brought up first and last they did what oh yeah what about the first and last go ahead so they have like a rebuttal per se about what I mean give me the rebuttal good so this is what they said it's actually from their website read it out loud tell us what it is good okay so this is the response this is not
03:00 - 03:30 blasphemy against God because when Christ said that he is the Alpha and Omega it does not mean that he's equal to God because person and last is different from God's first and last where does it say it's different where does revelation say it's different why is it different give me their argument so I can demolish it okay so their argument is his being first is because he is the first born of All Creatures Colossians 1 15. notice
03:30 - 04:00 that collusion is 115 shows the great difference between God and Christ no it doesn't Creator hold on no it doesn't because they're also butchering the meaning of firstborn so you gotta know we got to deal with two texts so remember their argument because we got now more than one text to deal with because now they brought Colossians 115 to understand first and last it's not the same context but okay so Jesus is firstborn that's why he's the first and why is he the last okay so he is the last
04:00 - 04:30 because he's because God set the Judgment the end of the world and Christ is last because he is the man whom God will Equip to judge the whole and that was their response you know what God is gonna do what he's the last because of what because he set the Judgment the end of the world and Christ is last because he is the man whom God will Equip to judge the whole world so basically saying he's he's the final judge so he's the first because God created him first
04:30 - 05:00 yes that's what it that's what it is and he's the last because he will judge at the last at the last day yes okay now my first challenge to the glacier Crystal I would say show me all of what you said in Revelation you just gave me a lot of I said Jesus now prove everything you said from Revelation itself that this is what John meant by the first and the last that's my first challenge challenge number two I don't need you to explain to me what
05:00 - 05:30 it means that he's the first last because we're already told what the first and last means in the Old Testament so guys listen these are important because they're trying to use new arguments that Joe's Witnesses do not use to explain away why Jesus the first last say I don't need you to tell me what it means that Jesus first and last the Bible tells me what it means and it doesn't mean all that you said you even butchered firstborn of all creation Colossians well we'll get to that now I want you to go to Isaiah 44 verse 6. and
05:30 - 06:00 I'm going to show you what it means for an entity be the first and the last Isaiah 44 6. oh you want me to read I forgot see that's why you're silent right you're such a loser dude all right well you don't have a Bible with you I do but I'm not very good at finding it right away all you do is a Bible app if I give you a Bible app can you do it uh
06:00 - 06:30 yes Sam here okay hold on let me give you this right here hold on dude my goodness because I'm used to people reading for me here it is I'm private chat click on it and you know how to find Bible verses on a Bible app you'll do like Isaiah 44 6 44 colon six semicolon space and so on right you know how to do that you know how to use Bible apps or you don't know how to use that I know how to use it okay put in Isaiah 44 6. what translation does it give you I just
06:30 - 07:00 sent you the link NIV all right you can what do they use I want to use what they use they're all over the place they use a lot of translations okay so they use anything right they use anything okay go to Isaiah 44 6. uh this is what the Lord says Israel's King and Redeemer the Lord Almighty I am the first and I am the last apart from
07:00 - 07:30 me there is no God so the Lord Almighty is the first to last there is no God beside him right correct now go to Isaiah 48 12. Isaiah 48 12. listen to me Jacob now we're going to see what first last means according to scripture not according to their spin how they spun it Isaiah 48 12. get rid of it Jacob Israel whom I have
07:30 - 08:00 called I am he I am the first and I am the last so we see Jehovah's the first and last but what does it mean he tells you in Isaiah 41 verse 4. Isaiah 41 verse 4. he's going to tell you what it means Isaiah 41 verse 4. guys listen to these objections because these are common objections by anti-trinitarians and listen and learn what these titles mean in regards to God Isaiah 41 verse 4 here you'll be told what it means for God
08:00 - 08:30 Yahweh Jehovah to be first and last who has performed these Deeds who has called forth the generations from the beginning I the Lord am the first and at the last I am he okay do you understand what it means that he's the first last he was there from the very first generation that he created and summoned forth and he'll be with the very last generation that he sums forth I can't move on if you don't get it you
08:30 - 09:00 understand what he says I was with the first of them and I'll be with the last of them last of what the generations that he calls forth and brings into existence so who brought the first generation of creatures into existence this of course God Sam you keep repeating my name Sam don't wear it out dude okay it's uh it's God okay so who will be the one to summon the last generation
09:00 - 09:30 that will be God that means God has been there before the first generation was created and he has to remain till the very last generation that it will create before the end of the age right right which means that God must be there before the beginning which means that he's without a beginning if he was there from the beginning right right and that means unlike each generation that passes away he never passes away he's ever living which is why he can be with the last generation right so you understand first last means that
09:30 - 10:00 God is uncreated and Timeless and ever living that's what it means I'm the first I was there with the first of them I'm the last I'll be with the very last generation why because I was there before the first generation was created and unlike the generations that pass away I remain and endure forever so I'll be with every generation to the last one of them so it is referring to God being without beginning uncreated ever living and Timeless that's what it
10:00 - 10:30 means did you get it I get it Sam I just haven't stumbled across these verses before but you got it right I got it I got it now because what go ahead because it clearly says there who has called forth the generations from the beginning which would imply that he was already there with the first time that's why he's the first because he was there with the first of them right right and because he he doesn't pass away
10:30 - 11:00 unlike the generations he'll be with the very last generation right right that's correct okay so everyone understood what it means for God to be first and last everyone understood because this is for you two he's coming here helping you as well to learn how to deal with these cults and by the way Carl Keating of Catholic answers Carl Keating k-a-r-l Keating k-e-a-t-i-n-g who started Catholic answers he debated the apologist of
11:00 - 11:30 Felix manillo he debated Ecclesia ni Cristo on the deity of Christ and the Catholic church and those debates are online for free so you Catholics you need to know this call because they're converting Filipino Catholics you know you with me so far brother yes now when I need to prove to you is that Jesus claimed to be the first and last in this sense in what sense that like the father he was there from the very beginning of creation and like the father he'll be there with
11:30 - 12:00 the last generation because unlike creation he has no beginning no end A.D are you born again because it looks like you're a born-again dog born from a Raby dog to bark like the filthy dog you are so A.D get them out of here before we stuff you at your vomit piece of garbage anyway you with me there brother are you with me yes I'm here I'm here okay now let me prove to you Jesus is first last in the same sense are you ready I'm ready go to Revelation 21 verses 6
12:00 - 12:30 to 7 because you're going to see that first and last means the same thing as beginning in and Alpha and Omega because Alpha and Omega are the first and last letters of the alphabet it's like saying A and Z so here you're going to see that first last beginning the end Alpha Omega they all have the same meaning so Revelation 21 6-7 Revelation 21 verse six to seven yes threats and me they are accomplished I am the Alpha and the Omega the beginning
12:30 - 13:00 and the end did you catch it Alpha Omega means the same things beginning Alpha is the first letter Omega is the last letter that means if you're Alpha that means you're the start you're the beginning if you're Omega that means you're the end you're the last right right so reread What God Says again Revelation 21 6-7 he said to me they are accomplished I am the Alpha and the Omega the beginning and the end to the Thirsty I will give a gift from the spring of life-giving water
13:00 - 13:30 the Victor will inherit these gifts and I shall be his God and he will be my son so there's no doubt God is saying I'm alpha omega beginning n right yes it has the same meaning of being first last because he was there from the first generation right that's correct now go to Revelation 1 8 because they're going to tell you this is God speaking Revelation 1 8 because now this is where you're going to do their burial are you ready I'm ready Revelation 1 8. Revelation 1 8 I'm the
13:30 - 14:00 alpha and the Omega says the Lord God the one who is and who was and who is to come the almighty so now you get them to admit Jehovah says he's the first last in Isaiah okay and that's the father to them in Revelation 1 8 the Lord God says I'm Alpha Omega who is who else who is to come the almighty right so that's the Father Again The Almighty and he says he's Alpha Omega right yes and then Revelation 21 6-7 there it
14:00 - 14:30 says that the one who says I'll be is God and he'll be my son I'm Alpha Mega beginning the end right yes all right so first and last Alpha Mega beginning in are all the same meaning right they're just three different ways of saying the same thing right that's correct now watch what's gonna happen now I want to show you what Jesus says about himself you ready I'm now going to prove to you that Jesus claimed to be Alpha Omega in the same sense that the father's Alpha Omega not the
14:30 - 15:00 first creature and the last one because he'll judge you ready I'm ready you have to follow this way you go to John 5 22. John 5. yeah 5 22 get them to admit the following nor does the Father Judge anyone but he has given all judgment to his son okay get them to admit who's coming to do all the judging not the father right
15:00 - 15:30 it's clearly the sun okay so you gotta get them to admit that the son not the father so they don't do a backflip on you then you go to revelation 22 20. literation 22 20. revelation 22 20. look what it says you ready yeah they're saying your uh alarm but it's okay hey that's life buddy he's got to change the battery cheap he wants
15:30 - 16:00 me to cook breakfast for him you know cook dinner and clean his clothes he wants to do everything for him anyway revelation 22 20. revelation 22 20. the one who gives this testimony says yes I'm coming soon amen come Lord Jesus so who's the one who's saying I'm coming soon that's our lord Jesus no doubt right no doubt nobody you're gonna have to get them to admit Jesus said the father will judge no one I do all the judging and I
16:00 - 16:30 am coming soon right that's correct Now read revelation 22 12. revelation 22 12. behold I'm coming soon I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds now who's the one who said I'm coming soon in revelation 22 20. according to that that's Lord Jesus that's Jesus so who's saying right here in 12 I am coming soon that's our lord Jesus and remember Jesus
16:30 - 17:00 he's the one who's coming to judge so he says I am coming soon to do what I'm coming soon I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds that means he's coming to repay you for what you've done right that's correct and in John 5 22 who comes and judges you for what you've done that's Jesus no doubt right no doubt about it now read revelation 22 once again to verses 12 with 13. I'll read 12
17:00 - 17:30 and 13. now Watch What Happens 12 and 15. I'm coming soon I bring with me the confidence I'll give to each according to the students I am the Alpha and the Omega the first and the last the beginning and the end so Jesus says not only on first last I'm Alpha Mega beginning n he's all three he has all those three titles now try to spin it and prove to me it means the firstborn first created and
17:30 - 18:00 the last one because he'll judge he used the same titles that God Almighty used Alpha Omega beginning and first and last so how are you going to get around it if if just reading based off Revelation I can't find anything that would support there what are they gonna spin it they they try to spend first means first born no no no first means the same thing as Alpha and beginning and last means the same thing as
18:00 - 18:30 Omega and N first and last alpha omega beginning n they have the same meaning and all those titles were used for God almighty correct so are they going to spend this see no way of them coming back from this if I if I bring this up or something you better believe it they'll have no way out of this you caught it right I caught it yes just bury them with Colossians 1
18:30 - 19:00 15 because they must quoted that too right yes all right Colossians 1 15. here's what they quoted to show that he's a creature right yes Colossians 1 1 15. yep is the image of the invisible God the firstborn of all creation now you're reading on IV correct oh I'm reading in your American Bible now okay New American Bible yes do they use that as a Catholic Bible
19:00 - 19:30 so they use that um ideally no but I I don't know Sam because nobody smash you dude use the Bibles they use they don't use numerican Bible right right okay so why using that use something that you know they're gonna use so you can then be familiar with the Bible they're going to use so when you're with them what was the Bible that they used more often okay then stick with NIV the new Indian version okay okay go to Colossians 1 15 NIV sir
19:30 - 20:00 this year now you guys are silent are you guys bored in the comments section because you guys are like silent and saying nothing okay Colossians 1 15 sir the sun is the image of the invisible God the firstborn over all creation Now how do they explain that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation tell us how to explain that to them what does it mean I'm gonna go to their response on that
20:00 - 20:30 well they have response to that as well okay read their response so we can bury their response oh my goodness so God is the creator of all things while Christ is the firstborn of all creations not only that Christ is also called the firstborn of the Resurrection okay what does that mean Resurrection what does that mean they don't explain it uh they don't expect okay now what does it mean for Christ to be firstborn well first of all let me
20:30 - 21:00 show you what it doesn't mean are you ready yes I'm ready firstborn does not mean Jesus was the first one created and they can't even believe that because they don't believe he's the first one created because he's a man so he wasn't even there as a creature before the heavens and the Earth right yes so he I don't know how they're going to Define firstborn that confuses the hell out of me how they're going to Define food there's more answers God uh he said that Christ is first
21:00 - 21:30 because he is the firstborn yeah they don't they don't us they don't uh explain that okay well since I don't know how they're going to explain away firstborn because to them he's a man so he's not the first one created because he's a man he came later but I will show you what firstborn means and doesn't mean number one firstborn is a status that Jesus has over creation it is not a term that refers to
21:30 - 22:00 chronology meaning sequence that he was the first one created and everything else was created after him it's a status and I'm going to prove that to you in a minute but that it cannot mean he's a creature now when you read Colossians 1 15 16 and 17 explains to you why Jesus is the firstborn now re-read Colossians 1 15 but then 16 he's going to explain because he's going to use the word for or because that word for or because he's now explaining why he's the firstborn so
22:00 - 22:30 re Colossians 1 15-17 the sun is an image of the invisible God the firstborn of over all creation for in him all things were created you see the word for you're going too fast four you know why that fourth floor is there nope because he's explaining what he just said he's explaining to you the reason why he's the firstborn is because do you know you don't make the connection firstborn overall creation
22:30 - 23:00 four because of this or in him all things were created heaven and on Earth visible and invisible whether Thrones or powers or rulers or authorities all things have been created through him and for him pause right there if everything that has been Heaven's Earth all in them visible and visible were created by Christ because it was in him that
23:00 - 23:30 Creative Energy the power that was required to create all things came from him he within himself had that power that was required to create everything that means Christ by the power that he possesses created all things right right how could he have created all things without having existed before all creation
23:30 - 24:00 well I think the response would be that he was that Jesus was in the mind of God no it would respond you don't say that something in the mind of God created everything in heaven on Earth and something in the mind of God sustains everything that's stupid because it says everything was great through him for him and him by him and then verse 17 look what it says 17. is before all things and in him all
24:00 - 24:30 things hold together how can a plan in God's mind hold and sustain and preserve everything yes that's impossible so who is sustaining everything in him all things consist meaning the power required to create and preserve life is in him and from him and he is known as present tense he is before all things
24:30 - 25:00 meaning he was there before creation and he Supreme Over It that means Jesus is the Creator and sustainer of creation right that's correct it's it's there and let me show you another text that confirms he himself personally as a person was employed by the father to create all ages and to sustain all creation by his own word go to Hebrews
25:00 - 25:30 one two to three and we're going to come back to see what firstborn means Hebrews one two to three but in these last days he has spoken to us by his son Romeo pointed care of all things through him through whom also he made the universe now the word Universe before you move on patient it's the word ages aeon look at any Greek Lexicon aeon means
25:30 - 26:00 periods of time ages of time a period of time and everything within it so if the father created the ages all periods of time through the sun meaning he used the sun's great ages that means the sun was there before the ages right right but if he was there before the ages then that means he's not created right right so can you become your man did he create himself and if you still don't get it read verse
26:00 - 26:30 three not only did the father create the ages the epochs of time through the sun which means the sun was there before the ages with the father notice who sustains everything and gives life to everything keep reading the sun is the radiance of God's glory and that exact representation of his being sustaining All Things by his powerful word how can a creature who was limited in finite sustained and guide and preserve the
26:30 - 27:00 entire creation the billions of galaxies the billions of stars the Sun the moon all plants all angels all vegetation the Seas insects animals and every human being he's sustaining all of that by his powerful word if he's a mere creature I mean from what I remember they would say that um
27:00 - 27:30 that the sun does nothing on his own he does what the father that's irrelevant to the point yeah I didn't say he does something on his own that's a straw man answer the question how can he sustain every created thing in existence billions of galaxies and stars Sun Moon plants vegetation insects every cell of every body every DNA strand brain activity plant life animal life marine life by
27:30 - 28:00 his word if he's a creature and does he also sustain and give life to himself if he's a creature oh yeah that's a good point so how because in the Old Testament God alone and Only God creates and preserves and sustains life he doesn't use a creature to do that I'm going to show you that in a minute so you see that right I I see that now let's go to the Old Testament to see if Jesus is a creature you have a contradiction
28:00 - 28:30 because the Bible's clear God Alone Yahweh alone and only Yahweh created everything by himself and preserves All Things by himself he doesn't use a creature to do it go to Nehemiah Nehemiah n-e-h-e-m-i-a-h chapter 9 verse 6. okay you alone are the Lord you made the heavens even the highest heavens and all
28:30 - 29:00 their stereos the Earth and all that is on it the Seas and all that is in them you give life to everything who created everything in the heavens on the Earth oh boy that's the Lord that's God and who gives life to all of them preserves them alive that's God right there the Lord right correct and all the hosts of Heaven worship you that's what it says that's that's correct
29:00 - 29:30 but we're good we were just told the father used the son to create the heavens and the Earth everything in them visible invisible and to preserve them alive by his word that's why you just read in Colossians 1 16 17 in Hebrews one two to three right that's right so if the New Testament doesn't contradict the Old Testament how do you have Jesus being used by the father to create all creation and preserve all
29:30 - 30:00 creation Alive by his word because that would be a contradiction with the Old Testament right yeah oh I see now that God will never use a creature to you know no because it says he did it by himself both go to Isaiah 44 24 he says he did it by himself Isaiah 44 24 he did it by himself he says it in Isaiah 44 24. this is what the Lord says the Redeemer will form you in the womb I am the Lord
30:00 - 30:30 maker of all things whose judges so who made all things who made all things that's the Lord so he made all things right I'm going off camera for a minute okay now what else read I am the Lord the maker of all all things who stretches out the heavens who spreads out the Earth by myself so did he use anyone to do it he did it by himself by himself by myself now read job 9 verse 8.
30:30 - 31:00 job 9 verse 8 we got more so don't go anywhere Joe nine verse 8. he alone stretches out the heavens and Treads on the waves of the sea he alone or he and a creature whom who helped him homeopowered and authorized says he alone so he didn't Empower and authorize a creature to help him do it right yeah he does so he did it by himself right and when he created all things
31:00 - 31:30 that he created for his glory for himself or for the glory of another but Isaiah 43 verses 6 and 7. Isaiah 43 6 and 7. 43 Verse 6-7 I will say to the north give them up and see the South do not hold them back bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the ends of the Earth everyone who is called by my name whom I created for my glory he over created them for the
31:30 - 32:00 glory of another no who did he create them for for my glory his glory alone right yes now read Isaiah 43 same chapter 20 and 21. bring me to 21. the wild animals honor me the jackals and the owls because I provide water in the wilderness and streams in the Wasteland to give drink to my people My Chosen the people I form for myself that they may perform but people I form don't
32:00 - 32:30 read loud and slowly dude don't be scared the people I did what the people I formed for myself for me myself my glory yes I created them for my glory for myself not for someone else for myself and that the ostriches and the jackals look to who for sustenance who sustains them that's God but you just read Colossians 1 16 17.
32:30 - 33:00 Jesus created everything for himself and he sustains everything go back and reread Colossians 1 16-17 Colossians 1 16-17 [ __ ] Colossians 1 16-17 or in him all things were created things in heaven and on Earth visible and invisible whether Thrones or powers or rulers or authorities all things have been created through him and for him for him
33:00 - 33:30 who's him that that's Jesus but you just read Isaiah everything was created for Jehovah for himself for Jehovah but here it says everything's created for Jesus and then who sustains and preserves all things alive 17. he is before all things and in him all
33:30 - 34:00 things hold together so Colossians 1 16 17 and Hebrews 1 2-3 says the father used Jesus to create the whole creation every created thing and Jesus preserves everything Alive by his powerful word but the Old Testament says Jehovah created All Things by himself all alone for his glory for himself not for another so we got a contradiction if eclipse is
34:00 - 34:30 right in the Old Testament but I got a few more I want you to go to Isaiah 48 Isaiah 48 and I want you to read 12 and 13 for me description watch here guys pay attention Brethren don't help me by quoting verses this is how you destroy anti-trinitarianism but you've got to understand what you're eating and how to present it to destroy their counter rebuttal but you got to learn learn by the power of
34:30 - 35:00 the Holy Spirit okay listen and Isaiah 48 over 13. well what's that Sam Isaiah 48 12-13 who is the one who used his hands to create the heavens and the Earth read Isaiah 48 12-13 listen to me Jacob Israel whom I have called I am he I am the first and I'm the last name is the first and last right yes and as the first last what do you do in verse 13.
35:00 - 35:30 my own hand laid the foundations of the earth and my right hand spread out the heavens my own hand did what spread out the heavens read the first part now look at his uh crush your mouth reread it again Isaiah 48 13. my own hand lead the foundations of the Earth and my right hand spread out the heavens laid the foundation of the Earth that's gone Jehovah the first and last right yes my own hands
35:30 - 36:00 my own hands his right hand did what with the heavens spread off the heavens not the hands of anyone else right hand but how could Jesus be the one that the father used to create the whole creation and preserve it when job says by myself all alone my own hands my right hand created all things and preserves all things
36:00 - 36:30 what's the answer to that man how can Jesus be the one that the father used to create the whole creation and preserve it alive and create all things for Jesus when will you just read Jehovah by himself all alone by his own hands his own right hand created the heavens and the Earth everything in them preserves them alive and created them for himself for his own Glory Jesus is Jesus is doing what God's doing in the Old Testament so they say he's a creature so then we
36:30 - 37:00 have a contradiction right so we know New Testament doesn't contradict the Old Testament so what's the answer how could Jesus do what Jehovah said he did by himself what's the answer he's God you got it not a God but God Almighty Jehovah right he's God of the Old Testament but he's not the father though right he's not the father so that means there are two persons who are the god of the Old Testament the father and the son and then the Holy Spirit comes
37:00 - 37:30 in a little later when we discuss but you got it right I got it all right but I'm going to give you a few more remember it says the first the last that did this right right all right now I want you to go Psalm 102 watch here and we're going to explain what firstborn now means now go back and re-watch the session until you learn the arguments so you can present them accurately okay Psalm 102 this is a Psalm a prayer to who
37:30 - 38:00 if you're eating the first verse of the superscription the psalmist is praying to who the person who has grown Wheels your mic has gotten off dude come on a prayer of an Afflicted person who has grown weak and pours out a lament before the Lord so the Lord is Jehovah right so he's praying to Jehovah right yes now read Psalm 102 verse 12.
38:00 - 38:30 verse 12. but you Lord sit enthroned forever your renowned endures through all generations and by the way the word Lord in Hebrew is Jehovah yahuwah so you catch it he's praying to Jehovah the one who endures forever right right praise God Otis now Otis if you can respect the rules and not speak out a turn or chime in you will be blessed more than you can understand because of
38:30 - 39:00 the almighty Holy Spirit who fills us may we be in love with the spirit cling to the spirit trust in the spirit glorify the spirit the Father and Son Lord Jesus Christ May preserve us all I ask is do not comment folks do not chime in just listen and answer questions and I promise you if you read the articles I provide and the sessions the holy spirit will make you a scholar of the faith and a lion that's my promise and he gets the glory not me now so we caught it right it's Jehovah
39:00 - 39:30 yes it's Jehovah now look what the psalmist says about Jehovah in Psalm 102 same Psalm verses 25 27. verse 25 27. in the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth and the heavens are the work of your hands they will perish but you remain oh wait in the beginning who laid down who laid the foundation the Earth in the beginning Jehovah right yes and the heavens are the work of whose hands Jehovah says his own hands now hands
39:30 - 40:00 means his power is infinite power so Jehovah created things by his own hands not the hands of someone else right right okay now keep reading they will perish but you remain they will all wear out like the Garment like clothing it will change them and they will wait creation is changing decaying but Jehovah does not Decay and does not change right right and Jehovah's sustaining creation he's rolling them up and changing them right right now notice keep reading and they will be discarded but you
40:00 - 40:30 remain the same and your years will never end can this be set of a creature that this creature was the one who laid the foundation the Earth and created the heavens by his own hands and this creature never changes he Remains the Same his years never end a light creation which he's changing there's no way sap impossible right impossible now I want you to go to Hebrews 1 and read 8 to 12 slowly read it slowly now you're gonna see some
40:30 - 41:00 light switch is going to go on for you right who's eight through twelves but about the sun he says your throne oh God will last talking about who the father's talking about who the Sun so the father's talking to son right don't let him run from this say Hey you look father's talking to son to the son he says what
41:00 - 41:30 you're thrown oh God will last forever and ever acceptor of Justice shall be the scepter of your kingdom you have love righteousness and hated wickedness therefore God your God has set you above your companions with the oil of joy okay did you catch it the father sang to the son you are the god that reigns forever right right and you reign in perfect righteousness because you hate wickedness and I've exalted above your companions meaning
41:30 - 42:00 those human Believers that he came to save right right and this is talking about the sun correct yes the sun now here where are you gonna get blown away here's where you're gonna get bologna if you're listening now in verse 10 the father continues to speak to the son pay attention don't go anywhere hold on in verse 10 the father continues to speak to the son look what he says to the son in verses 10 to 12. he also says in the beginning Lord you laid the foundations of the earth okay
42:00 - 42:30 who's talking to who let's see if you got it who's talking to who the father is talking to the son but if you caught it the father just spoke the words of Psalm 102 and applied it to the son this is Psalm 102. in the beginning Lord you did what he gaining Lord he laid the foundations of the Earth and the heavens are the work of your hands so why is the father saying to the son you are that Jehovah of Psalm 102 who at the beginning laid the foundation at Earth made the hand Heavens by your
42:30 - 43:00 hands my son because both persons is God so if ecclesias Ecclesia ni Cristo is right how can the father quote the words about Jehovah and apply it to the son saying you my son are that Jehovah you were there from the beginning meaning he was there before he was a man you laid the foundation Earth you made the heavens by your hands your power and then continue they will perish but you remain they
43:00 - 43:30 will all wear out like a garment you will roll them up like a rope like a garment they will be changed but you remain the same and your ears will never end I'm confused bro why is the father glorifying praising the Sun by identifying him as Jehovah of Psalm 102 you son or that Jehovah at the beginning you laid the foundation with my son you created Heavens by your hands you roll them up they wear out you remain the
43:30 - 44:00 same your ears never end when I thought he's just a man and he wasn't there before creation so how can the father say Jesus is that Jehovah who made the heavens by his own hands who laid the foundation of the earth who created everything in Heaven and Earth for himself for Jesus sake and who sustains everything preserves Everyone by his powerful word when the Old Testament says Jehovah by himself
44:00 - 44:30 all alone with his own hands with his right hand created the heavens and the Earth everything in them sustains them preserves them alive and created them for his glory and not someone else hmm because Jesus is not a mere man he's not a creature he is the almighty god Jehovah one with the father and the spirit right but he's not the father not the spirit that's why we're trinitarians and isn't ironic that in Isaiah 48 12-13 you read it was the first and the last
44:30 - 45:00 who by his hands founded the Earth and by his right hand spread the heavens he's the first in the last wow the light switch went on I want to kiss your head see without me saying it it went on you said wow no wonder Jesus said he's the first last you got it praise the Holy Spirit he opened your mind before I even said it uh now you see what you said he's the first and last yes I see it like it's that that's it
45:00 - 45:30 went back to Revelation just the thought of it when because Jesus says I'm the first last I'm the living one I was dead behold I live forevermore and yet that Jesus is the first and last in the context of being the one who created everything gives life to everything preserves everything and create everything for his own Glory right wow you see what you did so like the father he's alpha omega beginning in the end first to last
45:30 - 46:00 like the father he created all things preserves all things alive created Evans by his hands because his hands are the father's hands the spirit's hand because they're one God their power is one it's like a copy and paste yeah exactly that's why he says I can only do what the father does meaning yeah that's what Jesus said even that verse is taken out of context they misquoted because he's saying I can do whatever the father does and whatever he does I do it the same way and I can only
46:00 - 46:30 do what he does here read John 5 19. and I want to break down firstborn and then if you have other questions we'll take it from there I'll go there yeah because I want to also explain first one we didn't explain now what it means okay and then you can ask me other questions but in John 5 19. just gave them this answer very truly I tell you his son can do nothing by himself now before you move on they stop there see he's a creature he can do nothing on
46:30 - 47:00 himself right yeah he's a creature you know wait for you getting barbecued and your fake Profit just wait let me finish with this guy then I'll barbecue your profit he's already in hell but anyway so now they stop there right they say oh see see Jesus is a creature he can't do a single thing on his own right right but now finish it reread and finish it he can do only what he sees all right let's begin again reread it okay Jesus gave them this answer very truly I tell
47:00 - 47:30 you the son can do nothing by himself he can do only what he sees his father doing because whatever the father does the son also does okay now let me ask the question can a creature say I can only do what God Almighty does and I do the things that God does in the way that God does it no because I'm not God but Jesus said I can only do what the father does and whatever he does I do it in the same way
47:30 - 48:00 so in a way could I say that like whatever God does I also do what God does that like not you Jesus says they're not you because you said could I say not you from Jesus point of view is that yeah no he not you could you say it he said it read it I only do what the father does and whatever he does the son does likewise did you read it yes I see it I see it
48:00 - 48:30 you gotta see it before I have to come and then lay hands on you and knock some sense into hey you okay did you catch what he said he only does what the father does and finish it not only that he didn't just say that only does what the father does and what else because whatever the father does yeah read that last line again because whatever the father does the son also does so can you as a creature say
48:30 - 49:00 whatever God Almighty does I also do see that so is this a claim of Jesus being preacher or is he claiming to be the almighty son who's not the father but Inseparable from the father and equal to him yes that's that's what it means exactly in fact to prove that's what he's saying I only do what the father does and I can do everything he does the way he does it but the things that the Father Knows are things that only God can do and yet I can do them because I'm one God with him that's what he means read John 5 21 and
49:00 - 49:30 see it it's right there John 5 21. foreign raises the dead and gives them life even so the son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it not only can I give life the way the father gives life the same way the father gives life but I give it to whom I want Alberto stop posting versus buddy I'm gonna get you out of here you with me there yes I'm with you
49:30 - 50:00 one second so now what does it mean that he's a firstborn what does that mean now let me show you what the term firstborn can mean are you ready I'm ready open up Psalm 89 the entire chapter okay now read verses 19 and 20. just 19 through 20. yep once he spoke in a vision to your
50:00 - 50:30 faithful people you said I bestowed strength on a warrior I have raised up a young man from among the people I have found David my servant with my sacred oil I have anointed him so who was he talking about who's he talking about David David right yeah don't guess it's right there David right yes okay now David wasn't the firstborn son he was the youngest of Jesse's eight Sons
50:30 - 51:00 that's in first Samuel 16. we're told he's the youngest of eight Sons right right and we're also told he's not the first King Saul was king before him right right Now read Psalm 89 saw me and I bought David look what it says in 26 27. he will call out to me you are my father my God God is saying David will call out to me you are my father okay what else the rock My Savior and I will Point him to be my firstborn the most exalted of
51:00 - 51:30 the kings of the Earth wait David is going to be what first word firstborn yes but he wasn't the first son born nor the first king so how is he the firstborn the most exalted of the kings of the Earth so firstborn is a status right it's yes that's that's that's that's right because he can't be the first one
51:30 - 52:00 born he was the youngest of eight cents and he wasn't the first king because Saul was king before him so here you're told what it means to be firstborn firstborn is a status to be the firstborn means you have the highest position in status because the firstborn was second to the father higher than everyone else and the firstborn was the heir the inheritance was his so here it's saying you're my firstborn not because you're the first King Saul was king before you or the
52:00 - 52:30 firstborn of your family you're going to say because I will make you Supreme higher in status preeminent over all the kings so it means preeminence and the air because if you're the firstborn you're the heir the inherence is yours and you are Supreme preeminent over everything right right so when it says Jesus is the firstborn Paul explains it Jesus is firstborn because he's Superior to Creation
52:30 - 53:00 greater than creation because he created all things he owns creation he sustains it it belongs to him so he's first born because he's preeminent and the heir for whom all things exist that's exactly the definition given by Paul and Colossians go to Colossians so it doesn't mean the first one born or the first one created let me show you where Paul says that he's first born because he's Supreme preeminent Superior to all creation
53:00 - 53:30 because he created all creation gives life to it and saves it he says it in Colossians 1 18. read it Colossians 1 18. and he is the head of the body the church he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the Dead so that and everything he might have to surprise see in everything he's Supreme sought on everything he has the supremacy he's Supreme Superior to everything in creation why because he created all creation and it exists for
53:30 - 54:00 him and he sustains it so it makes him superior to the creation also he's the head of the church he owns the church the church is subject to him so he's superior to the church and he's the beginning the one who caused the new creation he began the new creation where he redeems people and restores them and therefore he's Superior to all those who are being renewed in him and being the firstborn from the
54:00 - 54:30 dead meaning he conquered death and destroyed death and he's Superior to death by Rising alive being Immortal crushing death so he can be superior to death so because he Superior to everything so you understand what it means that he was born yes not the first one created status he's Superior Supreme over all creation because he owns it he
54:30 - 55:00 created it it belongs to him and he conquered death so he's first born from the dead meaning the one who conquered death by destroying death by his resurrection and he's Supreme Over the church because he owns the church it says body that's all it means um makes sense do you see know how to destroy their arguments but you had some more questions what else let's take a few more and you can come back tomorrow we'll do more good you mentioned in Hebrews 1 8 and a lot of the times uh
55:00 - 55:30 they'd use a different translation that's okay say that God who cares yeah I know yeah they'll use the translation God as your throne that's not your argument say okay so what read 10 and 12. there he's the Lord who created the heavens and the Earth that's even a more powerful title than God because who's the Lord who created the heavens and the Earth that's Jehovah so you can give them Hebrews 1 8. you can keep that translation even though they're wrong it does mean you're thrown oh God but don't argue
55:30 - 56:00 versus where you have to know the Greek say okay I'll give you that so it says God is his throne God is his authority so it's not calling God but you can have that but you can't have verses 10 and 12. because there it says the father calls him Lord what Lord the Lord who created the heavens and the Earth who is unchangeable and he preserves creation that means there he's being called Yahweh and last time I checked being called Yahweh is a higher title than God right so that's how you bury them
56:00 - 56:30 because you're gonna have to know Greek to show them that Hebrews 1 8 the proper translation is your throne oh goddess forever and ever you don't have the time to do that nor the knowledge for now you'll get it later because do you know enough Greek to refute them I don't know Greek because if I tell you it's the nominative for the vocative did you understand what I just said no I don't see now I'm gonna have to
56:30 - 57:00 take 30 40 minutes to unpack it do you really think they'll give you that much time to unpack the nominative for the Vodka are you serious and in parallel with Kiri which is vocative in verse 10. see come on let's be serious right let me repeat it again if I was talking to
57:00 - 57:30 glissos is the nominative for the vocative it is a nominant but it's being used as evocative and this is confirmed in verse 10 where the word Lord Kitty is a evocative now how much of that did you understand not much or to be honest with you I don't understand I don't understand it's okay I'm not putting you down what I'm saying is you're going to waste your time going into grammar because number one you have to understand it'll come
57:30 - 58:00 look by way of testimony glory to the father's Holy Spirit may he get the praise and the storm my pride and may I walk worthy of the Lord Jesus and finish the race with integrity no high school I was still on of high school got a GD no college no Seminary no University as a sign that the holy spirit is Almighty and if he fills you with wisdom you can learn this and you will but in time I learned this without going to Seminary or having a professor or a pastor
58:00 - 58:30 teaching me the holy spirit in his love filling me wisdom because he saw my heart as I cried out I want to know your word I want to know you and love you and I want to be used for your glory to protect my brothers and sisters and he honored that because that's the prayers that he loves so now you're going to learn but until you learn these finer points of grammar don't waste your time don't go into well hold on uh Mr I'm gonna sound like this astute Professor that's highly like Mr Eclipse Sani
58:30 - 59:00 Cristo you may not know that in Queenie Greek the word Theos and the nominative was often used in place of evocative so I understand that the form for the evocative director John should have been the e but there are examples where the nominative Theos is used as evocative and then further if you parallel it with verse 10 where there the Greek word for Lord giri is in the vocative that's further confirmation that otheos functions as a [ __ ] it how did you
59:00 - 59:30 learn that Mr ecclesi Ecclesia ni Cristo hmm I don't think that's going to work work out okay so don't waste your time give them Hebrews 1 8. give it to them say but I'm going to bury you in Hebrews 1 10 and 12. right