The International Human Rights Movement: A History

Summary

In this reflective conversation hosted by the Open Society Foundations, Ian Bruma engages with Ari, a leading figure in the history of the international human rights movement. The discussion traverses the origins and evolution of this movement, from its seeds in the 1970s, through its pivotal role during the Cold War, to its challenges in contemporary geopolitics. Ari highlights the significance of altruism and Christian missionary frameworks in shaping human rights advocacy, while also contemplating the complex interplay between economic justice and rights. As the session unfolded, critical assessments were made regarding the movement's impact across global regions, especially in post-Soviet states, China, and Central Asia, thereby reinforcing the movement's enduring importance.

Highlights

• The book by Arer discussed human rights intimately tied with Cold War dynamics, highlighting both Western and Soviet regimes' repressive tactics. 📚
• Altruism exemplified through movements like anti-slavery laid the groundwork for contemporary rights advocacy. ✊
• The discussion touched on America's role in sanction legislation against apartheid South Africa during the 70s and 80s. 🇺🇸
• Economic prosperity and political freedom are interconnected, yet practical enforcement of these rights presents significant challenges. 💡
• The evolution of freedom of speech in the US stands as a testament to the strength of human rights advocacy. 🗽

Key Takeaways

• The human rights movement is a relatively recent evolution, primarily taking shape in the 1970s during the Cold War. 🌍
• Altruistic actions, like the anti-slavery movement, significantly influenced the international human rights framework. 🤝
• Economic justice and human rights remain deeply entwined yet are distinct challenges requiring different solutions. 💼
• Contemporary threats to human rights often emerge from complex geopolitical settings, such as rising xenophobia in Europe and US foreign policies. 🌐
• The human rights movement must adapt and continue advocating amidst evolving global conflicts and political landscapes. 🎯

Overview

In a stimulating dialogue, Ian Bruma joins Arer at the Open Society Foundations to delve into the history and development of the international human rights movement. This discussion highlights the movement's emergence in the 1970s amidst the Cold War conflicts and emphasizes the profound impact of altruism as seen in history's anti-slavery campaigns.

While considering the global human rights landscape, Arer highlights significant progress alongside persistent challenges. From China's cautious yet notable advocacy developments to Europe's troubling rise in xenophobia, these insights reveal the movement's complex global context and the nuanced battle for justice and equality.

Arer closes with a reflection on the importance of continued advocacy and adaptability in the face of geopolitical challenges. The session underscores the enduring necessity of a vibrant human rights movement equipped to address both historical grievances and the contemporary threats of our time.

Chapters

• 00:00 - 02:30: Introduction and Opening Remarks The chapter titled 'Introduction and Opening Remarks' begins with the speaker expressing the honor of introducing both Arer and Ian Bruma for an event celebrating a new book by Arer. The book, published by Princeton University Press, was released last month and focuses on the history of the international human rights movement. Ian Bruma is mentioned as a notable figure known by many in the audience.
• 02:30 - 17:00: The History of Human Rights Movement This chapter focuses on Ian, a professor of democracy, human rights, and journalism at Bard College. At the time, he was completing a fellowship at the Coleman Center of the New York Public Library, where he was working on a book titled 'Life in Ruins,' which discusses the immediate aftermath of World War II in Asia and Europe. Ian has an extensive bibliography, although the text does not list all his publications.
• 17:00 - 30:30: Key Developments and Challenges in Human Rights Movement The chapter discusses key developments and challenges in the Human Rights Movement. It covers ARA's significant roles in the movement, highlighting his presidency at the Open Society Foundations since 1993 and his 12-year tenure as Executive Director of Human Rights Watch.
• 30:30 - 59:00: Discussion on Specific Historical and Modern Human Rights Issues The chapter begins with a brief introduction to the founder, who established a significant organization 35 years ago, in 1978. Before this, he spent 15 years working with the American Civil Liberties Union. The text sets the scene for celebrating the release of his new book. The narrator shares a personal connection, having had the honor and responsibility of reading the founder's work.
• 59:00 - 91:00: International Criminal Court and Global Politics The chapter discusses the intricate relationship between the International Criminal Court (ICC) and global politics. It emphasizes on the challenges and responsibilities involved in critiquing works related to Human Rights history, highlighting a personal anecdote from 2010 about reading a draft book during a Christmas holiday. The chapter hints at the complexity of interpreting human rights literature and the daunting task it presents to scholars.
• 91:00 - 123:30: Freedom of Speech and Neoconservatism in the US The chapter discusses the intersection of freedom of speech and neoconservatism in the United States, with references to cultural and intellectual icons. The text begins with a mention of the film 'Annie Hall' and a scene involving Marshall McLuhan. It highlights differing approaches to critique and commentary, noting Ari's gracious manner compared to the abruptness displayed in the film. The chapter seems to set the stage for a detailed discussion by AR and Ian, who are expected to speak for approximately 45-50 minutes on the topic, likely elaborating on the nuances and implications of free speech within the context of neoconservatism.
• 123:30 - 187:00: Human Rights Developments in China and Other Countries This chapter begins with the speaker inviting questions after a brief introduction. The speaker mentions the challenge of condensing a book of approximately 125,000 words into a 15-minute summary. The focus seems to be on providing a historical overview of international human rights, particularly developments in China and other countries.
• 187:00 - 219:00: Economic Rights and Justice The chapter "Economic Rights and Justice" discusses the development and controversies surrounding the human rights movement. The speaker presents their perspective on when and how this movement emerged. They hint at suggesting a particular position regarding the commonly accepted narrative of the human rights movement history.
• 219:00 - 289:00: Modern Challenges in Global Human Rights The chapter titled 'Modern Challenges in Global Human Rights' delves into the recent emergence of the international Human Rights Movement, which notably developed in the 1970s. Despite its modern formalization, the movement has significant historical precursors. The chapter discusses these early efforts aimed at rights protection, setting the stage for contemporary human rights challenges.
• 289:00 - 300:00: Conclusion and Presentation Ceremony The chapter discusses the preoccupation of religious centers in 17th century England with rights, particularly emphasizing that their focus was not on international rights but on their own rights. It hints at the emergence of a movement analogous to contemporary human rights later on.

The International Human Rights Movement: A History Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 it's obviously a great honor to be able to introduce uh both arer and Ian bruma for a celebration of rea's uh new book that came out just last month on Princeton University press on the history of the international human rights movement Ian many of whom in this audience uh is
• 00:30 - 01:00 well-known person Ian is the loose professor of democracy human rights and journalism at Bard College uh finishing a fellowship as well at the Coleman center of the New York Public Library where he's writing a book called Life in Ruins about the immediate aftermath of World War II in Asia and Europe Ian of course is the author of numerous books I will not take the time to go through all
• 01:00 - 01:30 of them uh but it's a great pleasure uh to have him as uh an interlocutor uh with ARA tonight um ARA himself what can word say uh has been president of the open Society foundations since 1993 served for 12 years before that as the Executive Director of Human Rights Watch
• 01:30 - 02:00 of which he was a Founder now some 35 or so years ago in 1978 he had worked for 15 years before that at the American civil liberties Union um and it's a a great pleasure to be able to be here and uh and celebrate his his new book um one very small personal note I should say I had the honor um and the responsib I guess uh of reading Ra's
• 02:00 - 02:30 book in draft form over my Christmas holiday in 2010 and as many of you would probably understand um the uh responsibility of having to provide some interpretive exegetical critique of a book on the history of Human Rights by arier is a task not for the fainthearted and um it reminded me constantly of course of that scene in
• 02:30 - 03:00 Annie Hall where Marshall mclan pops out of the Wings to tell that Colombia Professor how he knows nothing absolutely nothing about his work uh arier was far more gracious in my uh limited commentary and critique AR uh and Ian will speak now for roughly 4550 minutes we will then
• 03:00 - 03:30 open it up to questions subsequently okay and uh I I suggested that I should start by uh giving you um a PR of the uh the book so I will uh try to uh to boil down uh I think about 125,000 words into about uh 15 minutes um it's uh it is um intended as uh a history of the international human
• 03:30 - 04:00 rights movement and uh I think there is U some controversy uh as to um when uh the uh the human rights movement uh developed and and how it uh developed and uh I stake out um a uh a particular position uh on that subject um I I suggest that uh what we know
• 04:00 - 04:30 today um as the international um Human Rights Movement is of um fairly um recent origin uh that essentially um it developed um in the uh the 1970s uh that it certainly had uh precursors uh there were um important uh precursors uh in terms of um efforts to uh to protect rights uh for example the
• 04:30 - 05:00 um the religious denters in 17th century England uh were very preoccupied um with rights but they were not uh concerned with rights um across National boundaries uh and they were uh primarily concerned uh with their own rights uh I think that um something more analogous to the uh the Contemporary um human rights move movement uh emerged in the uh uh the
• 05:00 - 05:30 second half of the 18th century uh in England um with the um the effort to uh to end uh slavery and because slavery was International um inherently um that movement was concerned with matters uh that went across borders that is slaves were transported uh from uh one place uh to another and also um uh a number of the
• 05:30 - 06:00 uh the people who were concerned with the um the effort to end slavery uh were not uh focused on their own rights uh they were focused on the rights of others and uh the altruistic um character of the uh the anti-slavery movement um seems to me um to make it the um the most important um precursor uh of the uh the contemporary
• 06:00 - 06:30 uh international human rights movement uh there were various efforts um uh in subsequent periods to uh to protect rights uh internationally a number of efforts um during the 19th century uh concerned with uh particular uh abuses uh for example uh in the 1870s uh what were referred to as uh the Bulgarian Horrors uh in which um uh
• 06:30 - 07:00 Gladstone in England LED uh protests against the uh the ottoman Turks uh for the their oppression of the um uh the bulgarians but I I suggest that that was in part because um it was uh Muslims uh persecuting Christians uh and therefore it had a um a particular resonance in England in fact um I think uh that um uh
• 07:00 - 07:30 many historians agree that it propelled um Gladstone uh into the uh position of prime minister um uh replacing his longtime rival Israeli uh who had not spoken out um forcefully against uh what were called the uh the Bulgarian Horrors anyway bringing it up to the uh the 1970s um I think the um the critical Factor um that
• 07:30 - 08:00 um helped to um establish um an international human rights movement uh was the uh the Cold War uh context um in which it uh emerged um because I think the cold war um had the effect of magnifying um the importance uh of um certain developments um during that that period um starting in the uh the
• 08:00 - 08:30 1960s um there had been um a number of persons um in the uh the Soviet Union who uh organized um protests um dealing with rights uh they were uh a handful um but the uh the international uh press and uh the public at large um paid a great deal of attention to them um because because uh
• 08:30 - 09:00 they were uh challenging the uh the power of the uh the Soviet state uh at a somewhat earlier period I think the uh the conflict uh between um East and West has sometimes been portrayed in in economic terms rather than in terms of uh concern about uh political repression if you look at today's New York Times uh on the second page of the um the arts section there is that famous photograph
• 09:00 - 09:30 of uh Richard Nixon debating uh christev uh in front of the uh the kitchen and um uh the Triumph of the West Was Meant To Be exemplified by Nixon's ability to uh to point to the um labor saving devices in in the kitchen um uh so that was considered to be the um the nature of the uh the Cold War uh contest but that uh shifted and I I think it shifted
• 09:30 - 10:00 principally um under the influence um of uh some of the uh the philosophers of the period uh and some of the novelists of the period uh ranging you know from the early post World War II period George Orwell uh up to much later um Alexander Soulja niten at any rate there was this uh attention to um uh the Soviet uh descent um disproportionate attention given the um the relative
• 10:00 - 10:30 handful of people but it achieved importance um because of the um the immense attention that was paid to it um but uh the the United States in particular which had tried to um uh exemplify um Liberty and standing up to the um the Soviets um was uh itself uh vulnerable and its vulnerability was was um its uh
• 10:30 - 11:00 support of uh repressive regimes in in different parts of the world in in Latin America uh in Asia uh in Africa um the United States uh supported a a variety of um anti- uh communist uh regimes and uh another uh part of the human rights movement particularly crystallized uh around uh the uh the pin could
• 11:00 - 11:30 uh on September 11 1973 um and the support of the um uh of Pinos uh by the uh the Nixon uh Administration uh during that period uh another development um during that period was uh the um uh the uh effort on on college campuses um in the United States to um uh impose uh sanctions on uh South Africa uh that
• 11:30 - 12:00 was probably the first um effort in which uh substantial numbers of persons in this country uh were involved in an international human rights uh issue and always in the United States what prompted involvement in human rights was the involvement of in the of the United States that is Americans um didn't protest against uh abuses uh in in other countries they protested against the
• 12:00 - 12:30 role of Americans uh in uh facilitating abuses uh in other countries so after the um uh Soo Riots of of 1976 and the murder of Steve boo um uh shortly after the uh the soo riots uh the movement to um uh for disinvestment um in South Africa uh took off um in uh the United States um
• 12:30 - 13:00 somewhat later on um Ronald Reagan and and Margaret Thatcher um were the principal um opponents uh of um disinvestment and sanctions on uh South Africa but the movement uh in this country was uh strong enough uh so that uh Congressional legislation imposing sanctions um on uh South Africa
• 13:00 - 13:30 uh was adopted um over uh Ronald Reagan's uh veto anyway so the the the the human rights movement um on the one hand was denouncing uh Soviet abuses uh because of the attention to Soviet Des centers and uh thereafter Des centers in Czechoslovakia and Poland um and uh uh then it was denouncing um the United States in particular uh for its um rep
• 13:30 - 14:00 support of repressive regimes uh in uh in different parts of the world and I think the uh the mainstream of the human rights movement um was um quite clear in opposing um both kinds of abuses of Human Rights both the um the Soviet block uh abuses uh and the abuses by anti-communist uh dictatorships uh in various countries that were um uh
• 14:00 - 14:30 supported um by the United States and uh I think the uh the human rights movement uh ended up playing a a very significant part um uh uh in the the efforts that it made uh in that period in the 1980s between uh 1983 and and 1990 um uh virtually every uh
• 14:30 - 15:00 dictatorship um in Latin America um was uh overturned and replaced by a Democratic or a more or less uh Democratic uh government The Only Exception uh in fact was uh was Cuba um but um Argentina Brazil Chile Uruguay Paraguay um uh Central American countries um uh all had um uh
• 15:00 - 15:30 dictatorships uh replaced uh by something uh more democratic and something significantly uh less uh abusive of Rights than the the regimes that had um uh existed um uh previously uh something of the same sort happened in in East Asia uh that is uh the the Philippine dictatorship of Marcos came to an end in in 1986 the um
• 15:30 - 16:00 uh the Korean um uh military dictatorship uh in 1987 uh Taiwan um uh underwent uh Democratic um uh change uh during that period and then of course somewhat later on um uh South Africa had the transition from uh the apartheid uh State uh to uh a state in which um all um uh members of
• 16:00 - 16:30 the uh the population uh participated um in uh self-government and um of course um uh in uh 1989 uh the Communist dictatorships of um Eastern Europe um collapsed of course the human rights movement was not um the uh the sole Factor um in uh the those transitions uh
• 16:30 - 17:00 probably in a a lot of cases it wasn't the dominant Factor uh but it was um a factor um in the um uh the transitions uh that took place uh in uh different parts of the world um during uh that period and uh its ability to uh to challenge those on uh both sides of the Cold War uh divide who were who engaged in uh repressive activities uh provided
• 17:00 - 17:30 the um the human rights movement with uh a a standing a status um it wasn't um uh there were of course uh those who only denounced uh leftist regimes and those who only denounced uh rtist regimes but the mainstream uh of the uh the human rights movement um uh was um uh opposed both to right-wing repression um and to um uh to
• 17:30 - 18:00 left-wing uh repression um subsequently in the uh the period um uh since the um uh the fall of the uh the dictatorships in in Latin America and East Asia uh and uh after the Revolutions of 1989 in Eastern Europe I I don't think the human rights movement uh has been able to play
• 18:00 - 18:30 um quite so significant a role geopolitically uh as it played during that that um earlier um period really it its infancy um but it has uh maintained um a very significant role and I think there are um three issues uh that it has focused on uh which have allowed it to uh to play um a a very significant role uh one is that it extended the concept
• 18:30 - 19:00 um of um human rights um from um uh the ordinary um uh civilian practices of government uh to Armed conflicts it took on the role of um trying to um secure compliance uh with an older branch of law uh International humanitarian law which regul Ates uh conduct in armed
• 19:00 - 19:30 conflicts and since um probably the most severe human rights abuses are committed during armed conflict the role of the human rights movement uh in documenting abuses in conflict and trying to mitigate um those abuses has been uh immensely important I think a second um issue which has um been um of of central significance to the Human Rights Movement uh during um this period has
• 19:30 - 20:00 been securing um accountability for um past abuses uh of Human Rights and so you have had uh truth Commissions in about 40 countries um uh we've seen uh more than uh 60 heads of state and heads of government um uh prosecuted uh for either human rights abuses or corruption or a combination of the two in the last 20 years or so uh
• 20:00 - 20:30 we have seen the development of a number of international um criminal tribunals uh such as the one uh the special court for Sierra Leon which convicted Charles Taylor uh the other day and the development of the uh the international criminal court and then I think the third issue which has um been uh of immense importance in terms of the significance of the human rights movement is the um the post uh 911 um
• 20:30 - 21:00 effort to uh to restrict um uh rights and the resistance um of the uh the human rights movement uh to the kinds of restrictions on rights uh that have been proposed um after 911 uh certainly um many restrictions of Rights um have taken place um my own tendency in in looking at that situation is to see the glass as half full rather
• 21:00 - 21:30 than half empty uh that is um one could have anticipated um so much worse uh than has actually uh taken place and I think um extensive resistance um whether in courts whether in the legislative branches uh whether in the uh the constant uh denunciations um of various kinds of abuses has actually significantly mitigated the uh the impact uh of
• 21:30 - 22:00 various repressive Tendencies uh that emerged um in the uh the wake of of 911 so obviously those are not the sum uh total of the uh the role of the activities of the human rights movement uh but I think that it has uh sustained uh itself sustained its significance and is uh an ongoing force and a force uh to be with for a long time to come so
• 22:00 - 22:30 that's my uh prey it's difficult to add very much um reading your book a few questions did arise and first of all I'd like to take you back uh back into history and and look at some of the um historical roots of the human rights movement you wrote very interestingly about the role of natural law yes um I was wondering would it ALS would it be
• 22:30 - 23:00 accurate to say that as well as at natural law Christianity played a large role and and specifically the the missionary um uh task of Christianity as seen by missionaries which in some ways went together also with colonialism and I'm thinking of um Christians in India British India wishing to abolish Sati and other such things um how important do you think that factor is the Miss missionary
• 23:00 - 23:30 element of Christian it's not a a factor that I uh tried to deal with um in the book um and uh in part uh I suppose um I I felt I was somewhat out of my depth uh in uh trying to deal with with it um uh I would say that um yes um there is that that missionary um aspect which which played uh an an
• 23:30 - 24:00 important role um but you know Christianity is not the uh the only religion that has had a missionary aspect Islam has certainly had um a a significant um uh missionary aspect so I wouldn't put the missionary aspect itself as uh necessarily the um the most important uh factor of of Christianity uh in providing a uh a sort of
• 24:00 - 24:30 intellectual and and philosophical basis um for the uh the emergence of the um uh the human rights movement I think uh probably um uh ideas about love thy neighbor um uh are uh more significant as a contribution uh of uh Christianity that is uh the since I attach uh a great deal of significance to the uh the altruistic
• 24:30 - 25:00 uh character of the um the human rights movement there is uh in Christianity uh a significant altruistic uh factor and I think that probably was the um the most important contribution but there's another aspect of it which may overlap with natural law a little bit more which is the belief that the norms and values that you wish to bring to the world are Universal ones yes and that is fundamental to Christianity look you can you can have spend a long time
• 25:00 - 25:30 debating the difference let's say between higher law and natural law and uh Christianity has uh this um this concept um of uh of higher law but I don't think it was Christianity itself um well let me uh Retreat uh for a moment because um when I think of the uh the people who were involved in the anti-slavery efforts uh of the uh the 18th century uh there's
• 25:30 - 26:00 no question but that Quakers but not only Quakers um but um you know somebody like William wilburforce uh acting out of an an Evangelical uh Christianity uh played a a very significant role with respect to the uh the anti-slavery movement yes the the reason I ask the question is that as you know one of the criticisms of international law as a as a normative exercise is that it um it it
• 26:00 - 26:30 does suggest or it does it's pre supposition is that it is there to uh apply Universal norms and yes uh the criticism from a lot of the weaker countries um in the world in the non-western countries is well that's all very well to talk about these Universal Norms what's Universal and who makes these Norms it's the powerful West and it's the same countries that used to but it's also the powerful rulers of those countries who make the argument against
• 26:30 - 27:00 Universal Norms it's not coming um from those who are the uh the victims of the uh the powerful rulers uh so you know if um uh M mahat here in uh Malaysia or um you know the soar regime in Indonesia made the uh the argument uh uh on behalf of Asian values and against um uh Universal Norms or if f on you um uh
• 27:00 - 27:30 made that kind of argument um I'm not sure that that uh would have come from uh let's say political prisoners in in Indonesia yes I hope you understand I'm speaking for the devil here no absolutely but to what extent is the fact that the international criminal court for practical reasons and political reasons can rarely only go after uh figures from relatively minor countries make that argument harder in in the sense that um it's easier for the
• 27:30 - 28:00 people who take that view to say oh well it's you know you'll never see an American in front of that court and it's it's always people from I I I would uh put it a little bit differently you won't see an American in front of that Court uh for quite a while um I I do think that um uh some of these um institutions um have to um gain um uh credibility um over uh a period of
• 28:00 - 28:30 time uh in in the case of the United States you know American exceptionalism has um kept the United States um out of um uh many international human rights agreements and uh when the United States does become a party to them it's very often uh very late uh and uh with um as many exceptions and reservations uh as can be uh imagined so
• 28:30 - 29:00 you know it was 40 years after the uh the genocide convention was adopted by the United Nations that uh the United States uh ratified it and then with uh all kinds of reservations which to a significant extent nullify American ratification of the uh the genocide convention but eventually the United States did feel it had to make the gesture uh of ratifying the genocide convention eventually the United States
• 29:00 - 29:30 did feel it had to make the gesture of uh ratifying the um the international Covenant on uh on civil and and political rights and uh I won't live to see it but I think that the uh the international criminal court eventually will be ratified by the United States but even if it's ratified and I hear The Devil is on very thin ice um you'll never see a Russian or never it it's hard to imagine a Russian or a Chinese
• 29:30 - 30:00 to appear in in front of that Court either and so power politics Will Always to some extent uh dictate yes but you know we came um not quite close to to having a Russian uh in front of it but there was a sort of possibility of it um at the time of the uh the Russia uh Georgia war and um if I had been um the pr prosecutor for the um the international
• 30:00 - 30:30 criminal court um I think ultimately um I probably would not have um indicted uh the Russians because if one were going to do so uh one would want um a more clear-cut uh case uh than that uh the uh the statute for the international criminal court uh requires uh a certain level of gravity with respect to the um uh the abuses and one wouldn't want to
• 30:30 - 31:00 debate uh over whether an indictment uh met the gravity test but if there had been um a significantly larger number of crimes um committed on Georgian territory by um the Russians during um that War uh I think it would it uh would have been possible um for an indictment to uh to take place and chinia um there the problem is uh all of
• 31:00 - 31:30 the um the crimes uh take place on Russian territory and Russia is not a party to the treaty for the international criminal court Georgia is uh a party to the um uh the treaty and therefore crimes committed by uh the uh the Russian troops in Georgia would have been uh subject to the uh the jurisdiction uh of the um the international criminal court I mean part
• 31:30 - 32:00 of the problem is that the uh the most powerful uh countries um the United States uh China and Russia have not ratified uh the treaty for the uh the international criminal court and so it's only when um they commit crimes on the territory of a country that has uh ratified the um the treaty that they uh become subject to to's jurisdiction yes
• 32:00 - 32:30 what about if you we we talk about the um uh international criminal court and and you mentioned genocide I think I read in your book that you are quite sympathetic towards the right to protect and the right to intervene in cases of I think genocide is is the Criterium you use how what should the criteria be where are the sort of yard sticks that one can uh use for intervention yeah
• 32:30 - 33:00 that's a um I I think a very difficult um uh question it wasn't called um uh the right to protect at the uh the moment that it took place but uh the um the intervention in covo um was um an exercise uh not right the the responsibility to protect it was an exercise of that I think it was
• 33:00 - 33:30 legitimate um at that moment um for uh NATO and and since it was NATO that um that intervened uh to say that um we have had uh the recent indication um of um what uh Slobodan mosovich forces uh will do um in uh Croatia and
• 33:30 - 34:00 Bosnia uh now we have a uh an apparent repetition um of uh those kinds of crimes uh taking place um in uh Kosovo uh therefore um uh the um the uh basis for intervening um uh seems to me uh legitimate that is there were there were
• 34:00 - 34:30 the actual crimes taking place at the moment um of intervention and um uh what had happened in Bosnia in particular had uh indicated the extent uh to which the um uh The Killing um could take place whether Bosnia uh qualified as genocide it it certainly qualified um as crimes against humanity and I don't think it only has to be genocide um uh which implies uh an
• 34:30 - 35:00 intent to exterminate a um all or part of the population on racial religious or ethnic grounds uh that crimes against humanity which don't um uh involve that particular intent but are very large scale um crimes um uh are enough of a basis for intervention but do you think might be better to not to talk about genocide at all anymore since it's it's
• 35:00 - 35:30 so contested I mean you in your book I think a small number of uh times something actually does meet the uh the standard of of genocide I think Rwanda clearly um met the um the standard of genocide and genocide is uh the um uh the largest um a crime that we can um
• 35:30 - 36:00 identify and when something um gets to uh to that point um I think it's appropriate to uh to use that term but does Rwanda qualify because of the intent or because of sheer numbers because you talk about the gravity I it requires both um I think it requires both the intent um and um very large scale uh I think that where you have um let's say um an intent to uh to kill
• 36:00 - 36:30 people because of their Rel their race or religion and you kill five people um I don't think it's appropriate uh to use a term uh such as genocide uh the the concept of extermination is also part of the um uh the definition uh of of genocide I think in the genocide convention they don't talk about numbers do they can be against attt to uh to quantify but there is the reference to
• 36:30 - 37:00 um exterminate um in whole or in part and uh the the idea of extermination um uh implies um uh substantial numbers MH and on that On a related topic um somebody told me the other day that you were partly responsible for the um for a certain number of Jews becoming neocons in the skoki case uh that is two questions
• 37:00 - 37:30 first of all is it true that the skoki case uh which everybody here probably would be aware of uh when you stood up for the right of neo-nazis to Stage a demonstration in a largely Jewish suburb of Chicago that that was indeed as well as the the school in Brooklyn I believe um a catalyst for um some uh people to turn to the neocons who felt betrayed uh by this um look I'm I'm speaking out of interest
• 37:30 - 38:00 uh so I can be discounted um for for what I say um but um skoki uh was was quite peculiar um that is uh it aroused um immense antagonism um for a relatively brief period um that is uh there were um uh people um
• 38:00 - 38:30 who were horrified at the position uh that uh the American civil liberties Union adopted uh that I adopted in uh defending um freedom of speech um for the uh the neo-nazis that um turned around um and um I would say that
• 38:30 - 39:00 um uh there is widespread agreement today um which would extend to neocons um that uh the ACLU did the right thing um in skoki that it was one of those events it wasn't enormously important legally it didn't set any um a great precedent um but um when uh Americans um think about freedom of speech um often
• 39:00 - 39:30 their attitude is well if the nais could March in skoki I guess so and so um can be uh accepted or or tolerated and um neocons um uh will take that position uh as uh as well as anybody else I think the issues um that um had a deeper impact in uh developing
• 39:30 - 40:00 the uh the neocon movement um were often uh race issues um in the United States uh and to a somewhat more uh limited um extent um foreign policy issues military um issues I think that um you know policy towards Israel was also a significant factor uh in uh developing the uh the neocon uh
• 40:00 - 40:30 movement in the United States uh but there is a wider um acceptance of freedom of speech uh for um everyone um in the United States uh today than I think uh than at any time um previously and um I think there are very few places in the world World um uh where the um the acceptance of uh
• 40:30 - 41:00 freedom of speech is as great as in the United States we haven't had um in the post 911 period we haven't had um significant back uh sliding on on freedom of speech there has been you know one bad uh US Supreme Court uh decision um a holder versus humanitarian law project um uh but other than uh than that that's really um uh
• 41:00 - 41:30 exceptional um the the commitment to freedom of speech has been very substantially maintained in the United States and uh let's say the uh the Bush Administration um did not attack um uh freedom of speech times change though do you think would you still be so sanguin if let's say um a group naming itself a Jihadi group where to announc that they were going to Stage a demonstration in
• 41:30 - 42:00 the vicinity of the downtown New York well that was the argument death Infidel that was the argument against the the mosque a couple yes but that wasn't nearly as provocative as a group shouting death to the infidels in the same place I think that um uh Americans have um to a quite surprising uh extent uh surprising to me uh because when I started working on
• 42:00 - 42:30 freedom of speech um issues you half a century ago um public attitudes were um very hostile um to uh freedom of speech for left-wingers um uh in particular um I do think that um uh there has been a uh a very substantial um evolution of public opinion in the United States on freedom
• 42:30 - 43:00 of speech issues and I think the the significance of skoki uh is that it contributed to that when I used to um speak on the uh the skoki case and at the time the case was going on I spoke uh on it um it seemed to me every evening and uh sometimes um you know two or three times uh a day um and one of the questions I would um ask people um
• 43:00 - 43:30 was how many of you have gotten into dinner table debates about scopy and almost every hand in the uh the audience uh would go up and I had the impression during that period uh that over time the Free Speech argument um got more and more support uh in the course of those uh dinner table arguments it it proved to be from a freedom of speech uh standpoint probably the the single most valuable um
• 43:30 - 44:00 educational um effort uh that certainly I was ever involved in shifting continents a little bit um in terms of Human Rights why do you say in your book that you think China is moving in the right direction no I I I I'm I'm I'm ambivalent on China I'd say um that um you know for every three steps forward there are two steps backward um uh in uh in
• 44:00 - 44:30 China what's the one step forward I think not not something coming from um the regime um uh what I would rather say uh is that um within um the uh the citizenry in China uh there seems to be a um greater willingness to um uh to
• 44:30 - 45:00 espouse rights um than there has been uh in the past I I'm uh uh really very much uh an admirer uh of a lot of Chinese journalists uh it seems to me that uh they are constantly engaged in struggles uh to expand uh the range of issues they cover uh and to go into greater depth um
• 45:00 - 45:30 in the issues uh that they cover I've attended meetings of of Chinese editors uh in which they talk about um having to remain uh at their desks until 11:00 at night because uh they have to argue with the propaganda Ministry um uh about um what is going to appear um in the uh the next morning's newspaper but they do argue and um my impression of the uh the
• 45:30 - 46:00 Chinese journalists is they don't go like that against the regime they go um they look for byways uh they don't want confrontations uh but they are trying very hard um to um uh expand uh coverage you know so whether it's something like the uh the poor construction uh in Sichuan which led to the collapse of the schools at the time uh of the earthquake
• 46:00 - 46:30 or if you go back um you know a number of years to the uh the appearance of the SARS um epidemic and the role of the uh the Press uh in China inerting out uh the uh the SARS um epidemic and making it known and forcing the Chinese government uh to acknowledge uh the uh the SARS epidemic and that way preventing it from becoming a a worldwide plague um that there is um
• 46:30 - 47:00 that kind of uh of effort by Chinese journalists and so whether rights um are protected um is not only a function of uh the regime it also is to a very large extent um the the question of uh the assertion uh of Rights and uh my impression is that Chinese journalists in particular uh are in the Forefront of trying to uh to assert rights uh some Chinese lawyers um also play that role
• 47:00 - 47:30 so we've had you know the drama in the last several days of the um uh the blind lawyer uh Chong Guang Chong um and um he's not alone uh there are a lot of China doesn't have compared to the United States um a very large number of lawyers it's a very small uh profession um uh compared to a a country like the United States but a significant number of uh Chinese lawyers do seem to
• 47:30 - 48:00 try to um uh to play a role defending rights yes that's true I mean it's the American conservatives have long argued and it's a question very questionable assertion but that capitalism um brings and expands rights and brings more democracy and so on could one at least if you narrow this argument down say that that um more capitalism more commercial competition
• 48:00 - 48:30 in China has actually contributed to the positive effects of what you're just talking about in other words Scandal sells I I don't think so well but SC the the newspapers that often expose scandals do so because they know it sells more copies my um contacts with with Chinese journalists and you know I I uh had lunch uh the other day um with uh three Chinese uh journalists
• 48:30 - 49:00 including a a woman who's a you know very well-known uh editor um in China and my sense of of them uh is that um they are determined to be um good professionals um and this is um uh uh that expanding coverage and deepening coverage uh is uh an aspect of that
• 49:00 - 49:30 desire um for professionalism and I I feel the same way uh about the uh the lawyers I've attended uh training programs um uh for legal aid lawyers uh in China and there's you know a very famous um uh defense attorney uh named mosha ping and uh watching him speak uh to aund um uh legal aid
• 49:30 - 50:00 lawyers um to say that you could hear a pin drop I mean the the wrapped attention the um determination to try to learn from him uh seemed to me overwhelming and the legal aid lawyers you know aren't doing anything of uh commercial significance they're paid um you know trivial uh amounts of money uh and yet uh they do seem you know they come to their uh position you know with
• 50:00 - 50:30 no basis whatsoever they've uh uh they've attended uh they've studied law as undergraduates they're um sort of um they go into a legal aid office with no idea how to represent uh a criminal defendant but when they had a chance to listen to somebody who knew how to represent uh a criminal defendant uh there was uh a determin ation to uh to learn and that um aspect of a desire for
• 50:30 - 51:00 professionalism has been uh immensely impressive to me mhm how much time do you have for questions 10 more minutes then do you see similar developments in in countries like Egypt similar figures coming up uh you know I I've um I've traveled in Egypt um a lot less um than I have uh I've traveled in uh China and I've had
• 51:00 - 51:30 um much less um exposure uh to um the um the kinds of of people I'm I'm talking about in the um uh the Chinese uh context um so the fact that uh that I don't see it uh doesn't mean uh that it doesn't exist uh it may uh simply reflect uh the uh the limits um on um
• 51:30 - 52:00 what what I have been able to uh to observe uh in Egypt uh I I was uh by accident um a witness uh to the um the first demonstration uh going towards T Square uh and um that was an enlightening uh experience uh because it was you know
• 52:00 - 52:30 quite obvious to me watching uh that demonstration I staying at a hotel we had a conference uh in a hotel with huge uh Windows directly overlooking the uh the paths that the demonstrators were going on and it was very uh clear to me watching um that demonstration uh that somebody had uh organized that demonstration um with great care um in
• 52:30 - 53:00 advance even to the point where as the uh demonstrators um approached a line of police directly below uh the hotel the demonstrators lifted their hands like that uh to show that they weren't carrying any weapons I mean that was an old uh sort of um uh you know tactic from uh the civil rights movement and it it went back in the United States to um uh a man named AJ musy who was the uh uh
• 53:00 - 53:30 the principal anti-war um uh figure in the United States uh long ago so somebody had um uh sort of learned all those uh methods and people had been uh very well prepared but i' I've had glimpses of things in Egypt I don't have uh a depth of knowledge I must ask you one more question before we throw open to other questions um something that I
• 53:30 - 54:00 already admired you greatly but made me admire you even more okay when I was told the other day that um to you were preparing an article about pornography and in order to prepare this article you read the complete works of Balzak is this true not the complete works um by by any means um uh that I I'm not I'm not prepared why balls up um there was um a
• 54:00 - 54:30 a particular novel um by Balzak which the the the French word that is used in in the title is ten um uh and it may be translated you know a murky Affair or or or something like that um about half the book uh is uh given over to uh balak's um analysis of um the Argo
• 54:30 - 55:00 of the Demi um and uh it's it's great stuff uh so uh I I I I enjoyed um uh reading it um and I don't know how I I discovered that particular uh novel by by BAC uh but I had a good
• 55:00 - 55:30 time I will I'll will take any questions right in the back um how would you assess the critique of the human rights movement particularly in the former communist block as basically having failed to live up to its promise that human rights activists as you noted were somewhat artificially inflated in importance by the West as a result of Cold War politics and after the collapse of communist ISM they failed to um translate human rights principles into
• 55:30 - 56:00 politics uh that many of the countries uh in the region uh quickly spawned repressive regimes just as repressive as the ones that existed I don't think justi is repressive uh I don't think and that just one more point that the human rights activists today are fairly marginalized and are largely reliant on the support of the open Society foundations and other outside ERS to sustain their
• 56:00 - 56:30 work look I I I think that uh the the critique um uh has uh Merit there there should have been um a um much higher level um of uh engagement um but uh I I don't think that um you know it's appropriate to consider the regimes um you know comparable to um to what existed previously even if you take
• 56:30 - 57:00 something like the uh the Putin regime uh in Russia uh where everything uh is organized uh to uh to maintain um his political power um nevertheless uh you don't have um people being you know sent off long prison terms for um speaking uh critically uh of the government uh people can travel from one part of the country to the other they can uh travel
• 57:00 - 57:30 uh internationally they can have associations um uh with the West uh there's an awful long way to go um in uh a country like uh like Russia in um uh protecting human rights and and you know clearly there have been murders of journalists murders of of Human Rights activists uh that have uh taken place um in Russia uh there are terrible abuses
• 57:30 - 58:00 committed on an ongoing uh basis uh in uh a region like Chia and yet even with with all the um the abuses um uh that do exist uh in Russia I don't think it should be equated um with the um the abusiveness of the uh the old um Soviet regime and to a certain extent um the uh one has to say that um uh the
• 58:00 - 58:30 the capacity to uh to protect human rights can't only um emanate uh from uh from outside um outside one can um document the abuses uh one can uh criticize the abuses one can um uh support those who um uh who try to um uh defend um human rights uh but there has to be um from within the country um a uh
• 58:30 - 59:00 a significant um uh movement uh to uh uh to protect rights in some respects I I would contrast um China and Russia um uh China um seems to me uh far more repressive uh than uh Russia Today the uh uh you couldn't have have an episode like this Chun Guan Chang uh case um in
• 59:00 - 59:30 in Russia um uh but um you also sense in China or I sense in in China um a more widespread um uh demand for rights uh than uh than I sense uh in Russia today uh and uh the fact that there is not uh a more powerful um Human Rights Movement within the country is a significant part
• 59:30 - 60:00 of the reason uh that rights are are not better protected um uh in Russia which is the reverse of what it used to be because before the fall of the Communist Regime there was far more um activism in Russia than there was in China yes um there was Far uh more activism look one of the things um that happened uh in the
• 60:00 - 60:30 um the Soviet block countries and I think we need to uh to recognize this is that um the the West um won the Cold War um you know the the the reaganite kind of explanation for that seems to me somewhat silly um but uh I think a a different explanation that that I would offer or at least one factor in the explanation um is that the United States
• 60:30 - 61:00 in particular was um very effective in um uh getting across the view uh that political freedom and economic Prosperity uh went hand inand uh and so when you had um uh various um Pro protests um against uh the uh the regime I don't think you
• 61:00 - 61:30 could have um uh separated uh the um the concern for political freedom from the concern uh for economic Prosperity they were seen uh to some degree as as one and the same thing I think that was probably more true in in Eastern Europe than it was um in Russia um and in Eastern Europe there was also you know anti-colonial element uh it was um not just denial of
• 61:30 - 62:00 political freedom but it was denial of uh uh of political Freedom uh due to the power of the uh the colonizer of Eastern Europe uh the uh the Soviet Union so there were all these factors um uh about economic Prosperity political freedom and anti-colonial element that all um were um uh uh sort of tied together uh and um uh help to uh to bring uh about
• 62:00 - 62:30 the uh uh the protests against uh against communism at Human Rights Watch are periodically been discussions about um the idea of of economic human rights um and whether or not there should be uh something set up to advocate for that parallel to political human rights and I understand why you know Human Rights Watch would want and I'm considered an arch reactionary on on that front all
• 62:30 - 63:00 right well uh I don't know the ins and outs but do you feel that um I understand why why Human Rights Watch would want to keep its Mission um in on that Dimension but do you think that it would be valuable and useful and productive to have a parallel economic rights movement that would set up in a similar way and and be advocating in countries that people should have a basic level yeah um you know there are um various groups uh that have have
• 63:00 - 63:30 organized around the idea um of economic rights and I would say that uh today um most um human rights organizations um at least rhetorically uh Embrace uh the idea um of um economic rights uh they don't um uh vote a great deal of their um activity uh to it but
• 63:30 - 64:00 they Proclaim uh a commitment to um uh to economic uh rights look my my own view of this is uh I espouse economic Justice I don't espouse um economic rights um the difference between the two uh is that um if I favor economic Justice I favor um more Equitable um distribution of the benefits and uh resources of
• 64:00 - 64:30 society um but I think that has to take place um through uh a variety of tradeoffs and through the uh the political process uh my attitude towards rights uh is rights have to be very strong uh they have to Trump all other uh concerns uh so that um I don't want tradeoffs on uh freedom of speech or the right not to be tortured um you know or
• 64:30 - 65:00 something of that sort that is uh no matter uh how offensive um what I have to say is I think I should be able to um uh to to say it um uh if uh the state has an overwhelming desire to get information from me uh I don't think it ought to be able to torture me in order to get that information so taking that very strong stand on rights I can't take that approach um with respect to what I
• 65:00 - 65:30 called economic rights uh because um necessarily uh there are um questions of resources uh there have to be debates as to how much one gets um in terms of uh income or uh or anything else and I don't think one can solve those problems um through uh assertions about rights so I can Advocate um for um let's say uh a
• 65:30 - 66:00 changed tax system um so as to promote um more economic justice but I don't feel I can deal with a subject uh like that um by claiming that there are rights uh that are involved I don't think it lends itself to the uh to the concept of of Rights okay well I don't think it would be necessarily like on a tax system issue but more like you know basic access to to not go to to not
• 66:00 - 66:30 starve to not have children who are hungry to have access to clean water and so on and so forth let's take that example of of access to clean water um many people worldwide do not have access um to uh to clean water um in order to uh to give them um clean water um vast resources uh would have to be deployed uh if you take
• 66:30 - 67:00 uh China for example you've had this you know immense um uh Improvement in some respects in terms of the um the standard of living um that is a huge um economic um Headway in China but in China um that has been accompanied by uh a great deterioration uh in access to um to
• 67:00 - 67:30 clean water you know the northern part of the country uh is to a significant extent Running Out of Water the Yellow River is a dead River um uh in in in China in Beijing uh they have to go deeper and deeper uh in terms of Wells to try to um uh to get water for the the residents of uh Beijing uh and so so the the consequence of the immense um economic Headway um in China is a
• 67:30 - 68:00 disastrous impact um on um access to um uh to clean water um and you know probably there are very significant Health consequences uh in China uh as a result of the um uh the access the denial of access to uh to clean water now one has to um somewhere strike a balance uh it seems to me between um
• 68:00 - 68:30 getting people clean water uh and allowing uh the significant economic Headway um that has been made in China to take place because as a result of the economic Headway people have less clean water but they have more food they have better housing uh they have better clothing uh in China that's what I mean by by tradeoffs uh how you resolve um a question like that doesn't seem to me uh
• 68:30 - 69:00 susceptible um of um you can't resolve that question um through uh assertions about rights one economic benefit uh ends up uh being disastrous so far as another economic benefit is concerned okay I'll take this up with you later yes ARA you cited as one of the three three main developments for the human rights movement a focus on enforcement and understanding of
• 69:00 - 69:30 humanitarian law or the laws of war and I wonder if you could reflect on um the challenge for the human rights movement now during a period where we seem to have slipped into somewhat of a Perpetual state of War I mean as as important as the laws of war are in protecting civilians and all of that the fact is that they permit an awful lot lot of brutality frankly and things we would never tolerate during what we used
• 69:30 - 70:00 to call Peace time but now we seem to have drifted into somewhat of a Perpetual state of war and while it's never been the the um uh province of the human rights movement to you know say when war starts and finishes we seem to have a new challenge now in terms of which standards apply I I have um I'm not sure that I would agree um historically um that uh this question of
• 70:00 - 70:30 you know Perpetual war is a larger um uh problem uh than in the past you know we did have uh in the uh the post World War II um era uh very substantial Wars we had the um uh the Korean War we had the Vietnam War uh we had the Iran uh Iraq uh War and the uh you know the many millions of people who were killed uh in that war we had um uh
• 70:30 - 71:00 a tremendous uh number of uh Wars that took place um in uh in Africa uh in um uh South Asia southeast Asia you think of the uh the war for the independence of Bangladesh and the um you know the vast number of uh killings and horrendous abuses uh that took place um in in that war um I I think um uh
• 71:00 - 71:30 what you're actually uh pointing to uh is that we have a higher level of Consciousness today um of the uh the victimization of civilians uh in um a number of the uh the conflicts that are underway and that to a significant extent uh today as was not the case uh previously um our thinking about um uh the wars that uh continue to take place such as
• 71:30 - 72:00 the uh the war in Afghanistan uh is very much shaped by um our awareness um of the um uh the civilian victims um the the civilian victims weren't a big focus of public thinking let's say at the time of the Korean War um that that concern with civilian victims um is a much more recent phenomenon and to some extent I
• 72:00 - 72:30 think it is um a consequence um of the uh the focus uh of the uh the human rights movement uh on what takes place in in armed conflict um you know I one of the things I feel very good about in terms of Human Rights Watch uh during my period is that it played a significant role in initiating uh concern with um uh VI viations of the the laws of armed conflict and it has continued uh that
• 72:30 - 73:00 Focus but you know a a I think a a valuable Innovation is um uh the work that is being done by a tiny organization uh that I'm very fond of called Civic the uh the campaign for uh innocent victims in uh in Conflict uh which has been engaged in this effort to get uh Armed Forces to uh pay damages uh to the families of civilians who are
• 73:00 - 73:30 killed in armed conflict and I think there is something like that continues to um uh raise Consciousness within the militaries themselves uh about the need to uh to protect um uh civilians against um armed conflict so there's a lot more to be done um in this field than than has been done until until now but I I I actually don't think uh that the uh the situation is worse uh than it was
• 73:30 - 74:00 previously um you know I I don't have figures uh to uh to reel off um but um I think if one you know were to examine it the way let's say Stephen Pinker uh does in his book about the um you know this long-term uh reduction in violence you might come to some uh somewhat surprising results well quick followup I I actually am more concerned not so I I agree with you on all of that actually
• 74:00 - 74:30 my concern is more that what does it mean for us that um you know if as uh you know now seems to be the case the US will be withdrawing from Afghanistan in 2014 we're in a situation where it's still a quite a serious possibility that even after that the United States will think of itself and project itself as a nation at War um because of the so-called war on terrorism and that's the the the concern I have about what
• 74:30 - 75:00 does that mean for those of us in the human rights movement when we're looking at the questions of which which laws apply Alis say your job will not be done you have to keep at it you've got a long way to uh uh to go um one doesn't um you know achieve um permanent victories uh in in uh in efforts on behalf of Human Rights there are always uh more and more uh
• 75:00 - 75:30 challenges to be faced uh but um in in general I I don't uh share the view that that things have gotten worse I think we have time for two more questions uh I I am from kistan what's your opinion about human rights issue in our country after uh two revolutions you know that which country kistan Kurdistan Kyan KY Kyan Central Asia yes
• 75:30 - 76:00 what do you think about human rights issue in our country because you know that Arab Spring followed after our Revolution yeah yeah thank you although I don't think there's a cause and effect relationship um uh between the two um look uh I I I had thought of kirgistan as the um uh the country in in central as Asia that was uh most promising um and you know then was
• 76:00 - 76:30 somewhat uh shocked or more than shocked by the uh the violence um in the South uh involving the uh the USC uh minority um in the uh the south of the country uh so um clearly there are uh significant human rights issues that uh that have to be addressed uh in Kyan and as they have to be addressed um uh elsewhere but at the same time it's a
• 76:30 - 77:00 country that um uh in its neighborhood uh look looks relatively good uh from from a human rights standpoint David here here we'll have one more then um I've I've I've done my devil's advocate role too many times with you to repeat it this evening but I'm like Ian I'm actually sincere about it um the uh I'd like what I'd like you to
• 77:00 - 77:30 do is take up the response you made to Alisa which is to say there no permanent victories to take up the response excuse me that you just made that there are no permanent victories in human rights and do talk if you would for a couple of minutes about where you think things are going rather than how they go up there um I I'm I'm disappointed Ed by um uh a number of uh developments um and
• 77:30 - 78:00 I'm uh encouraged by uh a few other uh developments I'm I'm uh very uh disappointed by um developments uh in Europe um I think the um the rise of uh xenophobia and racism uh in Europe is uh a very uh serious um setback uh for
• 78:00 - 78:30 human rights uh I think the the uh the Advent of the current government in Hungary um is a particularly um uh uh repugnant uh development um uh I don't know how things will be in the uh the new with the new leadership in in France I hope that some of the um uh
• 78:30 - 79:00 the um easy espousal of of racism uh associated with sarosi Will um uh will diminish um uh in France but the fact that uh you know Marine Le Pen was able to get about 18% of the uh the vote in France uh is not encouraging uh I think the um the end of the burone um uh era in Italy was another was a more
• 79:00 - 79:30 favorable uh development and I hope that uh the uh the tide of racism and xenophobia in Italy will uh diminish uh the fact that um these um uh sort of racist movements have even emerged in you know the Scandinavian countries and in the Netherlands the countries which we thought were the sort of paradise uh for human rights uh is um uh quite uh dispari um I think in in the United
• 79:30 - 80:00 States um uh I'm uh you know disappointed that the uh the Obama Administration has been um so Resolute about Not Looking Backward uh to the um uh the abuses of the um uh the previous uh government and um you know it has sort of held line uh on on human rights um uh since um uh coming into office uh
• 80:00 - 80:30 I don't know what will happen uh after the um uh the fall elections on the other hand if you look at some other parts of the world um I'm you know encouraged uh by um developments in in West Africa uh that you now have um several countries uh in West AA Africa that have um rights respecting uh democratic governments in uh a territory
• 80:30 - 81:00 where uh horrendous uh abuses of of Human Rights um uh took place uh not that long ago uh I don't know what the outcome will be of the um the Arab uh revolutions I'm I'm very optimistic about developments in Tunisia uh I'm not um optimistic about uh developments in a lot of the uh the other uh countries um in the uh the Arab region um so uh I I I
• 81:00 - 81:30 think one one one gets a sort of mixed picture as one um uh sort of uh looks around the world um at uh uh at uh various developments there are things that are are going in the right direction and there are things that are uh are going in uh the uh the wrong direction um the the problems in Europe uh I I think are very uh serious because
• 81:30 - 82:00 you know if the United States does not play a leadership role with respect to rights and I don't think uh it is likely that the United States will play a leadership role uh with respect to rights in the um uh in the period ahead one would have hoped that uh that would emanate uh from Europe um and um uh that kind of Hope doesn't seem realistic uh in the uh uh the current
• 82:00 - 82:30 context so um if I uh look to where leadership um has to come from I actually think it has to come from the uh the non-governmental Human Rights Movement uh that it has more of a role uh than individual governments or associations of States uh in uh in in protecting rights maybe they'll come from the Germans and the Japanese um one more [Music]
• 82:30 - 83:00 question I I know that you and OSI have been very involved in Romany Romany rights for a long time Roma rights and Romany rights I am I wonder if you could talk a little bit about how you see the status of Roma rights today and how you see one being able to help the everyday Roma I mean in Eastern Europe most obviously
• 83:00 - 83:30 but also here and in other places uh move forwards in their um look again uh there are contradictory developments so far as uh Roma rights um uh are concerned uh there does seem to be um you know a higher uh level of um uh sort of outspoken um uh prejudice against the uh the Roma uh today uh both in Eastern
• 83:30 - 84:00 Europe and and some countries of of Western Europe uh than um uh in in in the past and when I um you know spoke of bercon uh I had in mind um some of the attacks on Roma in Italy and uh sarosi uh was also uh unfortunate with respect to to ROM um on the other hand um uh one does uh
• 84:00 - 84:30 see the um the emergence uh of um uh greater capacity uh within uh the uh the Roma population uh itself uh and um uh that um probably translates into a um greater ability to um uh to become uh ad Ates um uh for uh their own rights and I think in terms of you know the role of the uh
• 84:30 - 85:00 the open Society foundations uh our role has on the one hand been to defend uh Roma rights but I think it has been to a larger extent a much larger extent uh an effort to uh to enhance uh capacity uh within the um uh the Roma communities uh themselves and I think that uh is uh a successful effort uh and uh over the long term uh will pay off in in
• 85:00 - 85:30 significant ways in uh in enhancing uh the protection of Roma rights thank you very much uh so thank you Ian and thank you AR for the very reflective and thoughtful and somewhat surprising con uh point on Balzac but I'd like to um ask my close colleagues Amy yankin and
• 85:30 - 86:00 Ricardo Castro if they would come up for a second for their own sort of surprising uh and unpredictable presentation okay wait hold on just yeah hi uh good evening my name is Ricardo Castro and this is my colleague Amy yenen and uh we wanted to just take this opportunity uh to on behalf of the staff of OSI to express our affection uh and appreciation for ARA's leadership as
• 86:00 - 86:30 president of OSI as you may know ARA steps down from that position at the end of June and so we were looking for a sort of modest way that wouldn't embarrass ra too terribly uh to uh Express that affection and appreciation and uh as you may know we have a documentary photography program uh at OSI which Amy heads up and we have an exhibition uh that's up currently and one of the featured uh series of
• 86:30 - 87:00 photographs deals with Burma uh and it is a series of um portraits that were taken of different activists and Civil Society uh actors many of whom we have supported over the years and uh on the hand of each person of in the portrait appears the name of someone who when the photo was taken uh was in prison in Burma as a political uh prisoner uh happily many of the people whose names are written on those hands today are now
• 87:00 - 87:30 uh free uh thanks to uh the reforms uh ARA made a a probably very casual comment to Amy about one of the images uh and that gave us an idea uh that perhaps we could give him that image so before I take out the image I just want to say that um in presenting the image I I feel that it symbolizes the values and principles that the foundation has embodied so it therefore feels very fitting to be able to present
• 87:30 - 88:00 it to Rea on behalf of the entire staff really in celebration of his lifelong commitment to Human Rights and we have measured the print so it'll fit his new office in our new office space thank you I uh that that particular photo um uh
• 88:00 - 88:30 sort of um gets me every time I pass it on the stairs so I I thank you very much I am deeply appreciative I hope it will haunt you for years okay thank you