The Most Important Career Advice You’ll Ever Hear With Harvard Business School’s #1 Professor

Summary

In this engaging episode, Mel Robbins welcomes Harvard Business School's Professor Allison Wood Brooks to discuss the ins and outs of effective communication and negotiation. Brooks shares invaluable insights from her extensive research and popular courses, revealing how these skills can propel your career forward. This conversation is packed with practical advice on asking for raises, networking, and overcoming nerves, wrapped up with Brooks' unique perspective on negotiations.

Highlights

• Discover how just five minutes is all you need to form a meaningful connection 🤝
• Learn why understanding others’ needs is the key to successful negotiations 🗝️
• Find out how to leverage your strengths to secure a raise or promotion 💪
• Get tips on transforming job-search nerves into powerful excitement 🌟
• Understand how expressing gratitude can seal a deal in an interview 😊

Key Takeaways

• Communication is a superpower in any career—mastering it can make you irreplaceable.
• Negotiation isn't about demanding—it's about understanding what others need and offering value.
• Before asking for a raise, make sure you know what makes you a crucial asset to your employer.
• Nervous before an important event? Channel that energy into excitement instead!
• Networking is most effective when it's genuine—build relationships by being curious and interested.

Overview

Mel Robbins dives into a fascinating conversation with Harvard's Professor Allison Wood Brooks, renowned for her expertise in communication and negotiation. Brooks shares her story, detailing a career built on innovative research and teaching at one of the world's top institutions.

Throughout the episode, Brooks reveals essential strategies for advancing in your career by mastering the art of conversation. From understanding the vital role of communication in leadership to the nuances of asking for a raise, this discussion is a treasure trove of advice.

The conversation also explores Brooks' groundbreaking research on anxiety, showing how to pivot from nervousness to excitement in high-stakes situations. Listeners will learn practical tools for networking, job interviews, and maintaining a positive mindset, all grounded in the science of effective communication.

Chapters

• 00:00 - 05:00: Introduction and Importance of Communication The chapter discusses the significance of communication. It emphasizes that a meaningful connection can be made within five minutes, where individuals can learn a lot about each other. It also highlights common mistakes people make during professional negotiations, such as asking for money or promotions with a rigid and resolute demeanor mistaken for influential presence. It notes that humans inherently need affirmation.
• 05:00 - 10:00: About Mel Robbins Podcast The chapter introduces the essence of the Mel Robbins Podcast, highlighting the importance of providing consistent support and encouragement in everyday conversations. Mel emphasizes the significance of happiness both at work and in personal life, stating that it is valued as much as money. These positive engagements, she argues, are invaluable.
• 10:00 - 20:00: Professor Allison Wood Brooks' Background and Research The episode welcomes new and returning listeners to the Mel Robbins Podcast, emphasizing the value of ambition and career advancement.
• 20:00 - 30:00: Key Takeaways from Harvard Negotiation Course The chapter discusses strategies to achieve personal and professional goals, like earning more money, securing a dream job, or gaining recognition and respect at work. It relies on 15 years of research by Harvard Business School Professor Allison Woodbrooks. Her insights, also detailed in her new book 'Talk,' provide specific actions one can take to attain these objectives.
• 30:00 - 40:00: Effective Communication and Negotiation Strategies The chapter "Effective Communication and Negotiation Strategies" discusses the science of communication, as taught in a popular course at Harvard Business School (HBS) by Professor Brooks. She has dedicated her time to share insights from her course, emphasizing the value of such education, which, if pursued directly at HBS, would be an expensive endeavor exceeding $100,000.
• 40:00 - 50:00: Promotion and Pay Increase Strategies In the chapter titled 'Promotion and Pay Increase Strategies', the main focus is on strategies for successfully asking for a promotion or a pay rise in a challenging job market. Professor Brooks shares valuable insights and groundbreaking research that can boost confidence and provide an advantage in professional settings. The chapter aims to distill significant takeaways from a year's worth of study to equip individuals with the necessary tools to succeed in their careers.
• 50:00 - 60:00: Networking and Job Application Tips This chapter focuses on providing useful tips and insights into networking and preparing for job interviews, emphasizing the importance of mastering conversational skills. It highlights strategies for effectively handling difficult conversations, delivering compelling presentations, and overcoming nervousness. The chapter also introduces Professor Allison Woodbrooks, who is recognized for her best-selling book 'Talk: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves,' as she shares her expertise on these topics.
• 60:00 - 70:00: Dealing with Nervousness This chapter is focused on addressing nervousness related to career advancement, stressing the importance of negotiation skills for better job positions, pay, and managing associated stress and anxiety. It begins with a background introduction, mentioning involvement with Harvard Business School and reasons for recruitment.
• 70:00 - 80:00: Interview Tips and Building Relationships The chapter 'Interview Tips and Building Relationships' discusses the work of a behavioral scientist who specializes in negotiation. The scientist has a PhD from Wharton, where they studied emotions and communication in negotiation contexts. Now teaching at Harvard Business School, they focus on how people feel and express these emotions before and during negotiations. The course offered is highlighted as incredibly valuable for personal and professional development.
• 80:00 - 90:00: Conclusion The conclusion chapter discusses the author's experience in teaching negotiation effectively for several years. The author felt the need for an additional course at the business school that would complement the negotiation course. This led to the creation of a course called 'Talk,' aimed at enhancing conversational skills in all aspects of life. The course gained immense popularity, with students eagerly enrolling and a waiting list being formed.

The Most Important Career Advice You’ll Ever Hear With Harvard Business School’s #1 Professor Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 [Music] what makes you irreplaceable you don't need any more than five minutes to make a meaningful connection and to learn a lot about someone okay stop i freaking love that and we're all stealing that what are the mistakes that people make when they go in and they're asking for more money or a promotion they go in sort of righteous and resolute thinking this is what an influential person looks like this is what they sound like they're decisive they're convincing they're compelling and strong aren't they humans need a lot of affirmation
• 00:30 - 01:00 Mel and you can give it to them in these tiny little moments in your conversations with them just reminding them relentlessly hey I'm with you i got your back yes money matters tremendously we all know that but also your happiness at work and outside of work so heavily rests on so many other things that right there is worth a million dollars and let me tell you why hey it's your friend Mel and welcome to
• 01:00 - 01:30 the Mel Robbins podcast i am so excited that you're here it's always such an honor to be able to spend time with you and to be together and if you're brand new I just want to take a moment and welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family and because you hit play on this episode and you found the time to listen to this here's what I know about you you're not only the kind of person that values your time but you have a lot of ambition and you're looking for ways to advance your career and you're in the right place your ambition might mean
• 01:30 - 02:00 that you want to make more money or land your dream job or just get the recognition and respect that you deserve at work well this conversation today is a must listen for you and for everyone that you care about because there are specific things that you can do based on the research to get what you deserve at work and in life everything that you're about to learn today comes from 15 years of research from Harvard Business School professor Allison Woodbrooks she also has a brand new book Talk which is all
• 02:00 - 02:30 about the science of communication and it summarizes one of the most popular courses at HBS that she created and teaches now Professor Brooks took time to come over from her Harvard Business School classroom over across the river in Cambridge to be here in our Boston studios for one reason she's doing it for you now to put this in context if you were to even get into Harvard Business School I know I probably couldn't it would cost you over $100,000
• 02:30 - 03:00 a year to attend and today you're getting the biggest takeaways distilled down for free so if you have somebody in your life who needs to ask for a promotion or maybe there's someone that you know that is entering what is a very tough job market right now this conversation today and everything that Professor Brooks is about to share is going to give you a leg up and the confidence boost you need and we're also going to get into some groundbreaking research that changed my life this is research that will help you nail any
• 03:00 - 03:30 interview it'll help you navigate a difficult conversation and destroy that presentation that's coming up no matter how nervous you may be class is in session and it's going to be a master class at that professor Allison Woodbrooks thank you thank you thank you for being here today thank you thank you thank you for having me well congratulations on your best-selling new book Talk: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves and I cannot wait to have you teach us exactly
• 03:30 - 04:00 what to do so that we can get ahead in our careers we can land our dream jobs we can get paid what we deserve and we can manage the stress and anxiety that comes from all things about making money and truly negotiating better and so I just want to start by having you tell the person who's listening about your background the classes that you teach at Harvard Business School and why they recruited you they recruited you to come
• 04:00 - 04:30 to Harvard Business School to teach negotiation yeah I'm a behavioral scientist i went I got my PhD at Wharton at the business school in Philadelphia where I studied emotions and how people feel how they talk about their feelings and specifically in the context of negotiations how do we feel when we're negotiating how we feel before we negotiate and I was hired at the Harvard Business School to teach this course on negotiation and it's an incredible course that's so valuable we all need to
• 04:30 - 05:00 learn how to negotiate more effectively i taught that for about four years and then I started to get a little itchy i was like I think the business school might need something else in addition to this negotiation course and I so I I created a course called talk that focuses very broadly on how to become a better conversationalist in all areas of your life and let me just say it's not just any course this course has a weight list i mean students are trying to
• 05:00 - 05:30 negotiate their way into this course and before we jump into some of the research and the specific things that you're going to tell us to do in order to get promoted in order to negotiate a higher salary in order to find and land our dream jobs and to also combat the nerves that come from negotiating and having difficult conversations at work or in our life can you just talk a little bit about some of the biggest takeaways that the person listening might find very
• 05:30 - 06:00 surprising from the Harvard negotiation course yeah I think when we think of people who when you imagine a good negotiator I think this really tough rigid persuasive person comes to mind when we actually study people negotiating in practice in the real world often the best negotiators are people who are just great communicators people who have and are good at developing meaningful relationships who figure out how to
• 06:00 - 06:30 figure out what other people need and then figure out how to actually deliver what other people need um it's not about getting in there and saying like "Give me more money or give me more power." It's literally giving people actually adding value and and bringing what people need to them i want to make sure I heard you correctly because if I think about negotiating whether it's for a higher salary or it's just trying to get the better deal at a car dealership
• 06:30 - 07:00 or it is winning any kind of argument i would think that you need to be firm and blustery and know your value and kind of have the right things to say but if I'm hearing you correctly you just said that the best negotiators based on the research are people that understand the needs of the person they're trying to get something from of course yes no negotiation very few negotiations are about just one
• 07:00 - 07:30 issue it's not like you're going to be doing this tugofwar push and pull on the price of a car there are other issues that matter for example starting with nobody wants to talk to somebody who's blustery and and decisive and harsh like no one goes into an interaction wanting it to be miserable and confrontational and so even that itself is a thing that you can deliver to them to make it more pleasant more enjoyable that is value that you can bring to them that's going to make them more likely to make a
• 07:30 - 08:00 concession on price so I want to take all of the research and the biggest takeaways from the incredibly popular classes that you teach at Harvard and I want to apply them to getting ahead in your career getting a job that is your dream job and actually landing it networking effectively managing nerves when you have to have tough conversations and I want to go through this one by one what is the single
• 08:00 - 08:30 biggest factor that determines whether or not somebody actually gets promoted or paid more at work it's so funny when we think about people who get promoted we think of these powerful people who have are sort of like masters of the universe or maybe tycoons or whatever in practice the people who thrive at work who do well who perform well are good at conversation they're doing a good job talking to their co-workers they're doing a good job talking to their
• 08:30 - 09:00 investors to their clients to their customers to their boss they're people that everyone likes working with because they're enjoyable to be around and they're bringing value they're working hard and bringing value to the people around them you know that makes sense because I remember seeing somewhere this research about the single biggest factor that determines whether or not a woman in particular gets promoted or somebody that is a minority gets promoted and it's whether or not their contributions
• 09:00 - 09:30 are known m and if you really stop and think if you're somebody who is quiet and you're hoping people know what you're doing and you're not a good communicator because it's not a skill that you've practiced or because your nerves get the best of you then you're leaving it to hope and chance that you're going to get recognized yeah because your contributions being known is largely determined by whether or not
• 09:30 - 10:00 you can communicate effectively yeah sometimes your contributions are observable without talking sometimes other people will notice and will say something and sort of promote about you talk good about you something that they've observed but very often if you think about a high performer at work and you track back well how did they become known as a high performer you track the chain of information back and very often it comes back to a point where it's like
• 10:00 - 10:30 well actually he told me himself that he just won this award or that he just figured out this new problem or he figured out this new thing so very often it comes back around to this idea of like you if something great is happening and no one's noticing it's up to you to share it with someone you know I just had this happen because you we found out that we are the number one ranked podcast in the world on Apple Podcast i mean it's like I never in a million years imagined a world where I would see
• 10:30 - 11:00 the Mel Robbins podcast ahead of Joe Rogan and it's funny because even somebody that listens to this show twice a week every week wouldn't know that because you're not paying attention to the charts that's right it's not until I actually say that this is something that has happened that you're aware of this thing that has happened and what's so amazing is and I almost don't want to say it because I feel like okay I'm bragging and then you're not going to like me and then you're going to think I'm full let
• 11:00 - 11:30 them follow my own advice but what were you going to say Professor i was going to say now that you've said it anyone who hears this episode can then go and they can share that information i can leave our conversation here and I'm going to say "Guess whose podcast I got to go on?" And it's so amazing because guess who's the number one podcast right now it's Mel's podcast i wouldn't have known that except if you told me even someone who's coming to visit so there are so many examples of this where it
• 11:30 - 12:00 wouldn't be known unless you shared it i think a great rule of thumb is to assume that nobody at work actually knows what you're working on that's right unless you are very good at communicating and you're making it known yeah i have a question because at Harvard Business School y'all do a lot of research on what makes for effective CEOs and what makes for influential leaders yeah at work and this applies to all of us this research it's not just you know somebody in a company this is about whether or
• 12:00 - 12:30 not you do a good job leading a group of volunteers to do something whether or not you're a good leader in the leader league uh you know kind of system that everybody and all your friends are coaching in leadership is a function of your ability to influence other people so when you look at the research that is done at Harvard Business School what is the most kind of overlooked skill of great leaders yeah I think this is part of why my course has been such a
• 12:30 - 13:00 a hit and why it sort of hit such a nerve when even when our students are in business school they focus on hard skills like "Oh I'm going to learn as much as I can about finance i'm going to learn as much as I can about accounting i'm going to learn as much as I can about private equity." But when you revisit with actual leaders out in the world whether it's at a very a fancy company and they're a CEO or the manager of the night shift of the serving staff at a restaurant every time everything they have in common they say "I've been
• 13:00 - 13:30 successful because I'm good at interacting with the people around me i'm I'm good at connecting with people i'm good at figuring out what people need and helping them get it." Um conversation is this incredible superpower that not enough of us are taking advantage of well it's true because if I think about wanting to be successful whether it's launching a business or having a side hustle or just continuing to get promoted and feel like I'm growing at work or to land my dream
• 13:30 - 14:00 job and network effectively i'm thinking more about these things I'm supposed to do but I'm not thinking a lot about the importance of mastering the skill of communication along the way and it is a skill yeah and it and nowadays because of this new science of conversation it's a more quantifiable skill than ever before and we've learned so much about how to build this skill and Professor Brooks you've already said something twice now that I want to highlight that
• 14:00 - 14:30 I want to make sure that the person listening caught this because I know this is one of these conversations that is going to get shared particularly probably with parents and grandparents down to you know nephews and nieces and sons and daughters around looking for jobs and actually being successful and influential in your career you have now said twice in talking about the science and research around being effective as a leader and a communicator
• 14:30 - 15:00 that it's about helping the other person or understanding what the other person wants and that being a key component of this skill of communication so if I take that nugget and I now say "Okay how the heck does that apply to me wanting to ask for a raise like isn't there a script that I need to follow where I march in and I'm confident and I ask for what I want and negotiate in a
• 15:00 - 15:30 really powerful way and that means I'm going to get it?" Yeah we'd like to I I think it's easy to think about um that someone walks in and they're confident and they say "I deserve a raise because of X Y and Z." And you lay out the data and you say "Because I'm great." and you owe this to me right before you actually figure out what's in their mind um what do you value in an employee am I doing a good job what how can I add more value what could make this organization better how could I be more pleasant to be around how could I be more helpful to
• 15:30 - 16:00 our my colleagues and this is not the mindset that people usually go in with they go in with this I'm strong and I'm going to convince you that I'm right and deserving there are questions like "How many other people do you have available to you that you could you you could replace me with?" That's an important question if that if your boss has a queue of 200 other resumes sitting on their desk you're probably not in a great a very powerful position to walk in and say "Hey give me a raise." But if you are bringing a lot of value and
• 16:00 - 16:30 you're hard to replace then maybe you are in a better position to talk about that so I just want to make sure I got this straight because I feel a little bad because I was out to dinner last night believe it or not i mean I love how the universe works and the person that was waiting on our table came up and it turns out that they're a huge fan of this podcast and it was really cool and I said "Oh well what topic would you want me to cover?" And I kid you not she
• 16:30 - 17:00 said "I'm the manager at this restaurant and next week I'm going in and I'm asking for a raise." And I think I gave her the wrong advice what'd you tell her well the first thing I said to her is I said "The one thing I don't want you to do is do not look at glass door and do not find every other salary range in your area and then assume that your boss should pay you that because that doesn't feel like you telling me that you're irreplaceable that feels like an
• 17:00 - 17:30 ultimatum." And when somebody does that to me it makes me go "Okay well if you'd like to get paid that at a different restaurant go get that job." Yeah and I then said to her what I would do is I would look back through your calendar and your photographs and jog your memory and try to come up with a list of all of the problems you solve all of the things that you do that your boss does not realize that you do come up with the number of different jobs that you do and then also come up with the reasoning
• 17:30 - 18:00 behind why you want to grow in this role yeah and why that's important to you but I didn't say I want you to first stop and put yourself in your boss's shoes what does your boss need in an incredible manager what makes you irreplaceable and I think that's something that nobody is talking about yeah and or take the that you've now instructed her to make this like log of
• 18:00 - 18:30 things that she's done she could bring the log to her boss and say "Which of these things is most valuable to you what do you think is what am I doing here that you love so that I can do more of that which of these do you think I should do less of how can I grow in this role what should I be doing uh differently better great which of these are most valuable to you that make you want to hold on to me?" So you would have that conversation before you actually have the one where you're truly asking for the promotion or the raise
• 18:30 - 19:00 yeah and this is true of any conversation where you're trying to be the mindset of trying to be persuasive is a very dangerous mindset what do you mean there are so many conversations where we go in and we often at work and we want to persuade someone to agree with us i want to persuade my boss that I am deserving of a race but the way to do that ultimately the way to be persuasive is to go in with a learning mindset when you go in and you try and learn as much as you can about what's
• 19:00 - 19:30 valuable to them what's valuable to the organization what do they love about what you're doing what do they hate about what you're doing learn learn learn ultimately that conversation is going to feel like the two of you are solving a problem together rather than arguing and pushing and pulling and you trying to persuade them to agree with you and ultimately you will ironically end up being more persuasive who knew that the Harvard Business School professor who teaches the course in the science of communication and negotiation
• 19:30 - 20:00 would give us unbelievably amazing advice no I'm not kidding because it's kind of one of those steps that's so obvious that you miss it because the truth is anybody that works for me that makes my job easier you're invaluable anybody that solves problems before they become a problem for me you're invaluable yeah you get in early you stay late you're invaluable and it's not a trick it's not like uh you're going to this conversation and you're going to try and trick them it's so authentic and and rooted in reality you
• 20:00 - 20:30 do you need to figure out what's valuable to them and then deliver it and then you become invaluable to them of course that's how that's how relationships work that's how work works i think most of us do the opposite i have certainly been guilty when I have been an employee and I make a lousy employee because I watch what's happening in the company and then I go "Oh they're successful therefore I deserve more therefore I am owed more." And then I start to feel entitled and
• 20:30 - 21:00 then I rehearse my little script and then I go in with my hands on my hips and my case that I'm going to make and then it's like denied yeah and that step of going have I even sat with my boss and asked "What would make your life easier what would make me irreplaceable what are you looking for me to do that I'm not doing what are the things that I do that you actually value what is a total waste of time?" Or if you're actually feeling um sort of the social comparison thing of this high performer you could go in and say "What are they
• 21:00 - 21:30 doing that's that's awesome that I could do more of?" Make it practical we all do social comparison but it's often um useless a sort of waste of your emotional energy turn that waste into something productive which is like so much of what we observe in other people is this sort of myth of naturalness or they're not doing that much more than me they're not doing anything special or that just comes naturally to them when you dig under the hood and you actually ask people what do they do that's that's good how do they make people around them
• 21:30 - 22:00 feel what are what work are they getting done you realize oh I'm not doing that i but I could I could try so there's just a lot there's a lot more to learn there you know Professor Brooks that right there is worth a million dollars and let me tell you why because typically when you see somebody who is performing at work or they are excelling at work or they are hitting their numbers or whatever you tend to see that example and then you either invalidate yourself
• 22:00 - 22:30 or you go only playing and what you're saying is no no no no no there are skills there are habits there are patterns of behavior that this person engages in how about you operate for a couple weeks and you just mirror what that person is doing because that person is demonstrating the behavior and the communication style and the work style that actually wins in this organization yeah it's it's undeniable proof that they're doing something right even if it feels like
• 22:30 - 23:00 those behaviors are sort of detestable if you track back and you say "But yeah he was the one who said that he was great at this and now you're all just listening to him." Well he nailed it they're listening to him he's succeeding maybe you have something to learn from that wow you know I could see how this also plays out in personal situations and I'm going to just take a small tangent because I want to just put my arm around the person to make you understand that what we're actually talking about is influence your ability to influence other people's behavior to
• 23:00 - 23:30 your benefit and so you know an example that comes to mind immediately that I realize I completely screwed up is the negotiating with my husband for how we're going to spend our holidays his family my family and I think we all can think of situations where we get highly charged and then we march in and demand what we want instead of stopping to think okay well what does my partner
• 23:30 - 24:00 care about what does this roommate care about and doing that homework Professor Brooks to force yourself out of your point of view and go "Well what might that person care about and how can I start the negotiation?" Really being interested in what that person cares about instead of jamming my opinion like a poop sandwich down their throat for them to choke down no that like I I I I can see the mistakes that I've made over and over
• 24:00 - 24:30 and over again and you know from your point of view Professor Brooks what are the mistakes that people make when they go in and they're asking for more money or a promotion yeah they they go in and do what you're saying which is they go in sort of righteous and resolute thinking this is what an influential person looks like this is what they sound like they're decisive they're convincing they're compelling and strong aren't they but when you talk about dialogue when you talk about oh this is there's a human being on the receiving end of this and you realize that every
• 24:30 - 25:00 encounter whether it's a job a salary negotiation or a first date or whatever that's another human mind sitting on the other end and they need to receive what you're saying so going in with your hands on your hips and making your argument this is not a public speech this is a co-created dialogue with another person who has needs and wants and desires and opinions and beliefs that differ from yours and you need to figure out what they are in order to be the best position to actually deliver
• 25:00 - 25:30 what they need how does knowing what somebody else needs help me get what I want oh my goodness it's the it's the most direct pathway and the and the thing is Mel we're not good at guessing what other people need even with people you know well like your like your husband well then how the hell am I going to know what my boss needs you got to ask questions endlessly ask questions you can ask them "What do you need what are you excited about what is this other employee doing that's so great how can I do better what are you What am I doing on my list of tasks that I'm totally nailing what could I do better?" Right
• 25:30 - 26:00 you need to be a sort of glutton for learning a glutton for feedback and then it will actually make you invaluable to them and put you in that powerful position to say "Look I know I'm invaluable to you you've told me and now I think I deserve more well you've also just signaled that you're now wanting to succeed and that you're not going to waste time guessing that you're willing to align and be flexible to cause more value for us you yourself want to
• 26:00 - 26:30 succeed and at the same time you're signaling I want us to succeed i want this organization i want this restaurant i want this investment bank i want whatever this school i want us as a group to succeed let's figure out how I can help us do that so I think most of us probably wait until our annual or mid-year review to do this but when is the best time i really love more casual feedback okay it's so stressful to go into like a 360 review or your annual
• 26:30 - 27:00 feedback meeting and everybody's nervous and it feels very high stakes you have the opportunity to ask questions anytime anytime you see somebody hey I tried this thing here's let me give you like show you a video let me show you what what do you think about this was this a good idea that I did this what could I have done better you were in that presentation I gave the other day what did you think of my slides like what could I have done better should I have not even use slides right there the opportunity to ask for lower stakes more casual feedback is always there but it
• 27:00 - 27:30 requires that you ask those questions well and the more you do that the more you're in a dialogue where it's pretty clear you're a valuable contributor exactly and they're more invested it's causing people around you to actually think about you right it's saying like "Hey I care about your opinion." And now we have a meaningful enough relationship where I feel comfortable asking you that's so valuable like you're embedded you're inshed in the sort of social net organizations are just a group of people who care about what they're working on so let's say you're a shift worker right
• 27:30 - 28:00 one of my uh daughters works at a restaurant and let's just say she wants better shifts how do you use this strategy to try to negotiate without being very direct around getting better shifts and I'm not saying for the record that my daughter wants better shifts i'm just using it as an example because somebody might listen to the restaurant yes exactly but as a former waitress and bartender I know when the schedule comes out and you're like "Another crappy
• 28:00 - 28:30 shift how do I get the good shift?" Totally i spent many years of my life waitressing too i know this feeling um so I think there's a couple answers the the first question is who are you talking to who are you targeting oh because you could talk to your fellow servers first and say are you also unhappy with your shifts do are there any opportunities for us to trade that would be win-win right so that's we call that trading on differences people have different preferences there might be win-wins in there to trade with the fellow servers y um you could then if if
• 28:30 - 29:00 not if that's not an option uh you can go and talk to your boss and say like when you when you're making the schedule what are you thinking about what is there something about this shift that you think I'm uniquely positioned to do am I doing a good job here what value am I bringing um or what this I would really love to be on this earlier shift but I see that you know this other server is there do you think they're uniquely positioned to be there or what are they doing that's great or what could I do to put myself in a position to be considered what can I do to earn
• 29:00 - 29:30 it you know what I love about this is that often times and I'll speak as an employer and as a parent right cuz negotiating um often times it feels a little bit like me against you yeah and what I love about this strategy professor Brooks is that all of a sudden you in a very sneaky Okay you made me with you and so there was nothing adversarial there was nothing confrontational it's not like you're making me wrong cuz I
• 29:30 - 30:00 didn't put you on the great Saturday night shift you're basically saying like "What do I need to do to put myself in a position to be considered which then allows me to be with you?" Yeah versus against you their job is hard the job that they're doing to decide who's doing what shift is a complicated puzzle to solve and so you're saying "I see that this is a complicated puzzle how can I help you solve this puzzle and how can I become a more valued part of the of the of the puzzle?" Um this is a really
• 30:00 - 30:30 great mindset shift whenever you're in a confront whenever you confront even a tiny disagreement instead of thinking of it as confrontational instead setting it aside and saying like "I'm with you i care about you i see what you're doing is hard let's try and solve this together." That's a really important mindset shift and it's almost always true right whether it's with your spouse or your kid or your boss these are people you really care about and admire you don't need to be getting in a fight with them about really anything i feel
• 30:30 - 31:00 like my husband has taken your negotiation and your science of communication course because he constantly when I start to get agitated about something he'll be like "Mel I'm not against you." Yeah like we need to work on this thing together yeah which gets me out of that like adversarial thing and I think we do feel that way particularly at work because money livelihood a sense of feeling good about yourself and that you're progressing that you start to get really nervous
• 31:00 - 31:30 about it humans need a lot of affirmation Mel and you can give it to them in these tiny little moments in your conversations with them just reminding them relentlessly hey I'm with you i got your back like I see you it makes sense that you feel upset about where you are in the schedule let's talk about how it could get better in the future right like we're in this together i'm affirming you and also I can't move you in this right now right well I think that's important because a lot of us have adversarial relationships with our
• 31:30 - 32:00 boss or with our business partners and we think they're against us and it's a huge shift and again I'm going to remind you as you're listening she's not making this up i mean this is what they're teaching at Harvard Business School in the renowned course on negotiation and this is what you are summarizing in your best-selling book talk which is based on you teaching one of the most popular classes at Harvard Business School learning how to communicate and negotiate
• 32:00 - 32:30 effectively is a important skill that helps you have more influence make more money be more effective with your family with everybody so let's say that you take this important advice and you actually have been peppering with small conversations yeah and you've been putting yourself in the person's shoes that you're now trying to get something from is there a certain time when to have the conversation if you've been
• 32:30 - 33:00 having all the little conversations all along to try to understand their position yeah if you've had these conversations and you feel like you really understand how you're adding value you've really put in the effort to become this sort of invaluable irreplaceable um contributor and you really have assessed and been honest with yourself do I deserve more and you get to this place where you're like yes I think I do after all of that which is important that's an important first step um then
• 33:00 - 33:30 this then you get to this point where you need to work up the courage to say is there a world where you could even afford could you give me a raise can the organization afford it can you afford it do you agree with me because I'm feeling like I really need it it would really help me well hold on a second that sounds weak i'm just going to come right out and be like it sounds weak to say could you afford it and I need it you know what I'm saying like that's actually the language you should use depends it depends on where you're going i mean I mean if it's a waitressing job
• 33:30 - 34:00 that's one thing but like if you're working in a company and you got healthare and you got a 401k really I think so I think in our minds we have this image of what strength looks and sounds like but in the experience of a of a conversation strength actually looks quite different it's people who go in open-minded with good data good reasons good reflection and you can say hey we've had a lot of conversations about this i know you think I'm doing a really great job that I'm invaluable to you because of these
• 34:00 - 34:30 things that we've talked about before we've gotten to a point now where I'm really hoping that you could reward me for it put your money where your mouth is [ __ ] no that's not what you're saying yeah i think we have this idea of what strength looks like that in the practice of humanto human connection and conversation is not actually how it plays out well what's also interesting is if you work for a larger company the fact of the matter is a lot of this is tied to your title yeah and to your tenure and it's also going to require the person you report to to then have to
• 34:30 - 35:00 go advocate on your behalf and it's not always as personal as you'd like to think but if you're in a smaller organization the presumption that the company's doing well therefore you deserve to do you know a lot better than you currently are is kind of an arrogant presumption because you haven't seen the P&L yeah so actually asking could you even be in a position to do this because you agree that I'm killing it here what can we do it's a very the questions of are you the right person kind of tricky actually are you the right person to do
• 35:00 - 35:30 you have the power to even say yes to me figuring out who to talk to is a really hard question they may not they may they would love to give you a raise but they don't have the power to do it or they would love to give you a raise but they can't afford to do it these are all things you need to figure out it's not weak to ask it's it's smart to really be thinking are they in a position where they can give me what I want are they are their hands tied well and I suppose if they're not in a position you can also say well look I'm looking to make 10 $20,000 more what do I need to do
• 35:30 - 36:00 here to actually have that happen and they might say you need to bring in more clients so that I can afford to give it to you right and that that's good to learn and then you can go out and do it yes this is so helpful can I tell you to say one more thing yes much of our conversation has focused on asking for a rate asking for more money a very big takeaway from the negotiation course at at HBS and this talk book is yes money matters tremendously we all know that
• 36:00 - 36:30 but also your happiness at work and outside of work so heavily rests on so many other things about your work the meaning of your work how connected you feel to your co-workers to your boss your relationships do you have a work bestie do you have anybody there that you enjoy being around is there convenient parking is there good coffee these things are not insignificant so when you find yourself overfixating on getting that $10,000 raise I would urge people to also really think about what
• 36:30 - 37:00 are other things if my company can't afford to give me 10,000 or $20,000 more a year are there other things that would make my life so much better so much more pleasant that are not about money at all like could I do a 4 day work week could I do a 4 day work week can I get can we get an espresso machine in the office can I could I have a friend who's really wellqualified for this open role that we have could we think about hiring them i would love they would make me so happy to work with them you know think creatively think outside of just one
• 37:00 - 37:30 issue that's so true because we do get fixated yeah and not to say that the money isn't important and not to say you don't deserve to be compensated for the contributions and the effort that you're making and I do think the other thing too is is that a lot of times at least speaking for myself is I would show up in a role and do the job that was asked of me right and then I expect because I'm doing the job that's asked of me
• 37:30 - 38:00 that by the way they could hire a hundred other people to do the job that is asked of me but am I contributing more so that I am more valuable and these are not the conversations that I ever had with myself because I was so busy going well my friends in investment banking are making all this money and you know I want this and I want that and look at these influencers online and you know my company looks like they're doing well and my boss drives a nice car so therefore I should you know and you get
• 38:00 - 38:30 up in that mindset dangerous very yeah and there's a saying of like dress for the job that you want but it's more than dress like the you need to behave like the job that you want so if they hired you to do a very simple job if you start doing things that are actually above and beyond and more valuable truly valuable to the organization you're already doing the next level job and you can go in and point that out to them and they might say "Yeah you're right like we need to reward you for we need to pay you like you're doing that job." So if the
• 38:30 - 39:00 research is undisputed that making your contributions known is one of the most effective things that you can be doing because just assume your boss is so busy they don't even know all the things that you're doing and if you're really good at your job you're taking care of so much that they're not aware of it because it's not on fire anymore yep so are there strategies um that you recommend that somebody think about in terms of how you make sure that the value that you're providing is known at work i think two
• 39:00 - 39:30 things one um keeping notes if you feel like you've done something valuable make note of it in academia we have these very long uh CVS that where we track like everything every little move we make every conference we attend every tiny poster that you present every paper that you publish it seems a little bit ridiculous but in retrospect when you look back you say "No that was just keeping notes on all the little things that I did that felt like it added value to the field added value to my organization to my co-authors all of
• 39:30 - 40:00 it." And so you can see why that's valuable it's sort of undisputable evidence of all of the value that you added yeah it's sort of like if a year goes by and you look back at your camera roll and you're like "Oh my god I forgot that I went on that trip in July." Everyone forgets how can you expect your boss to know and remember if you yourself don't even remember so keeping notes in some way some document where you're keeping track of what you've done is sort of part one and part two is talk to people about it tell tell people when
• 40:00 - 40:30 you've done something that you feel proud of or you feel like could be valuable don't keep it a secret like no one's going to know about it and yes maybe it brings you a sense of pride but in terms of work it's really valuable to share it i have two other things that I would love to share as ideas because I remember when my daughter started at this massive cyber security firm and they didn't do any like just 101 training on what makes for a good week what do you do on a Monday what do you do on a Friday and so the first piece of
• 40:30 - 41:00 advice was exactly what you're saying every single week on a Friday take out your notes app or take out a running document and write down the things that you worked on yeah and the second thing which I think is a great idea is at the end of the week send a short email to your boss and just say "These are all the things that I got done this week these are the things that I'm still working on next week is there anything that's a higher strategic priority that you want me to focus on next week?" And
• 41:00 - 41:30 what happens when you do that is now in one email you've communicated everything you've done and you've recalibrated to see if there's something strategic that is on your boss's mind that you now need to prioritize and the third thing and I heard this from somebody else i can't remember who said this it was at you know a big kind of conference that I was speaking at and I thought it was brilliant if you solve a problem and it could be anything you could be working at a big box retailer
• 41:30 - 42:00 and you had to mop up something and the mop didn't work and so you use something else if you solve a problem send an email wide about what happened and how you solved it because then you become a person that has wider visibility of being somebody that's very proactive and it matters and even if they don't promote you at your work guess what you now have a record of all this stuff for when you're interviewing yeah which brings me to my big pivot let's talk
• 42:00 - 42:30 about looking for a job Professor Brooks cuz right now you're at Harvard Business School and you got a lot of HBS students who are in the job market yeah and this is a conversation that's coming out where the news feels scary and AI is taking over jobs and people who are very qualified are having a hard time finding a job and people that are just entering the job market or getting back into it are feeling very overwhelmed
• 42:30 - 43:00 as a Harvard Business School professor what do you see as some of the big mistakes that people make when they either start looking for a job or interviewing for one yeah if you're having a hard time finding a job you are not alone this is a big problem right now it's a big challenge even our students at HBS are struggling with this too um so you're not alone um some of the biggest mistakes that I see people make on on the job market is is very similar to what we were talking about with promotions is thinking is focusing
• 43:00 - 43:30 on how can I be the most interesting qualified exciting candidate rather than thinking what does this organization need what do they need and how can I fill that need right so it's much more um co-created than how can I be my best self because just being your best self may not be at all what they're looking for and almost any job that you find yourself in is going to require some flexibility for you to adapt to what they need from you um and so trying to
• 43:30 - 44:00 figure that out a priority or before you give uh before you do a job interview before you interact with them is so very valuable let me back up a minute because I remember reading somewhere that 80% of open jobs aren't even listed and that most jobs are filled based on networking of Yeah I would believe that so Professor Brooks how do you teach Harvard Business School students to be better networkers
• 44:00 - 44:30 oh it's it's such a key the keys to networking are the same as keys to all being a valuable person in the world right it's all about um initiating and creating and sustaining meaningful relationships with people it's not like a trick that you walk into some networking event and you're like "Let me dazzle everybody and let me be the coolest guy in the room no it's really figuring out what are they interested in what are they excited about what do they need right now and am
• 44:30 - 45:00 I the right fit for that what could what value can I bring to them i remember a lot of my colleagues in grad school when you go on the academic job market they would go to these networking events and they'd be like "Oh I'm so nervous to talk to this person so nervous." And I remember thinking "That's so interesting." Like all you really need to do is ask questions or think ahead oh that person's working on this really interesting topic let me do a little bit of reading about that topic and brainstorm what is that area missing and what could I fill for them do I know
• 45:00 - 45:30 something about an interesting research methodology do I know someone else who's working on cool stuff that I could introduce them to really thinking ahead about what value you could actually bring to that person then interacting with them is not nerve-wracking because you're actually prepared and bringing value to them so if you were thinking about this from the standpoint of somebody who's just graduating from college and feels like they have nothing to offer or somebody getting back into the workforce after taking time off
• 45:30 - 46:00 having kids or caring for an aging parent or somebody that got laid off and now their confidence has taken a hit so you're kind of at ground zero you know what I mean you're like on LinkedIn you're who can I network with you're going and sending things to alumni from your high school and your college is there something about networking that you want the person listening to really think about it differently because I do think when
• 46:00 - 46:30 you're in that position where you don't have a job and you're like where do I even begin and my mom's telling me to reach out to this friend of hers that she knew five years ago and I don't even know what to say and you don't know you know cuz I've been there and you're just like what the hell do I even say do you just come right out and say look like yes Professor Brooks help me out here there are a lot of So young people feel unqualified um you know parents who have taken time off from the workforce and
• 46:30 - 47:00 are going back feel unqualified like they've they've like lost pace with technology or their skills are no longer relevant there's so many people out there that feel like they're not qualified or like what should I even say or am I even can I be helpful to them here's my advice and re I really mean this um it is so much more rewarding to connect with people in person or on the phone than it is through a networking website or through LinkedIn or through which is valuable very valuable but a real human connection makes you so much
• 47:00 - 47:30 more memorable to somebody and when when you go and have a coffee chat with someone don't go trying to impress them go because you're truly curious to find like learn from them what do they work on what are their pain points right now what are they struggling with what do they love about the job start with the informational like I'm looking for something my mom my dad my neighbor my roommate said you'd be a great person to talk to i don't even know if I would start with that m I would start with I I am so curious about what you're what you're doing is so amazing i'm so
• 47:30 - 48:00 intrigued by it can I have a f five minutes of your time to just pick your brain what are you struggling with what do you love about this what do you hate um who do you love working with what are you missing in your organization asking these questions with like true sincere curiosity you're going to learn so much you're going to be um you're going to feel very validated of like oh I am still relevant you know why cuz I'm good at asking these questions i'm good at figuring out what people need so if I can extrapolate that because again I
• 48:00 - 48:30 know that this conversation I mean we've got a free class from Professor Allison Wood Brooks from Harvard Business School teaching us how to land the job network better you're basically saying just ask questions and be interested and that's the opening for networking with somebody yeah because eventually hopefully the person's going to come back and be like "So what did you study in school?" or "What kind of thing are you looking for?" Yeah they don't even maybe they don't even need to know that you're looking for a job right just connect
• 48:30 - 49:00 with people in an authentic way where you're inter you're curious and interested in what they're doing and figuring out what are they missing what do they need do I know someone that could do that am I the right person to do that could I learn how to do that could I develop a new skill that makes me exactly what they're looking for probably what's a way to follow up with someone let's say you meet somebody at a barbecue you end up asking a ton of questions they're in a field that you're interested in because networking opportunities are everywhere if you're willing to ask questions but now it's
• 49:00 - 49:30 time for the follow-up how do I do that without feeling annoying or like I'm stalking somebody or I'm being like pushy totally i just now I just said take five minutes of their time i really mean it you don't need any more than five minutes to make a meaningful connection and to learn a lot about someone but what's key about even very short interactions to make them feel meaningful is the importance of follow-up there have been amazing research on this where they actually there's a study of entrepreneurs in in Africa where they part of what they
• 49:30 - 50:00 taught them to do is just be more thorough about follow-up what does thorough mean like anytime you have a meaningful conversation afterwards like shoot them a text say that was really amazing i feel really inspired you're so incredible thank you and I'll be in touch later just a quick affirmation to the other person of like "That was valuable to me thank you so much i'll follow up." That's amazing right that you're giving them the affirmation they need they took time out of their life you're showing them gratitude you could drop a little call back to something you
• 50:00 - 50:30 talked about during the conversation hey you mentioned that your daughter uh is in the tech industry right i Let me call back to that i hope your daughter's loving her tech job right a quick call back can be so it shows that you were listening to them that you're interested that you have interpersonal skills that you might be valuable to have in their organization how do you answer the question Professor Brooks so tell me about yourself in an interview seriously oh because I'm always like what do I You mean like today right now I don't know what do you want to know my pants size like what I had for
• 50:30 - 51:00 breakfast i feel the same way i feel the same way what's a way to answer that that's memorable and just kind of influential if you Okay so first to interviewers that's not a great question stop asking that question more concrete questions are much more interesting but if you are going to stick with these sort of very abstract open-ended broad questions like tell me about yourself which we are all going to confront um I like to make it more concrete in ways like for example if someone said "Tell me about yourself." I'll say "I'm going
• 51:00 - 51:30 to share two things with you about my professional experience and then two things about my personal life." Okay stop i freaking love that and we're all stealing that i'm going to share two things about my professional life and two things about my personal life yeah and they're going to get a much more uh thorough view of who you are and they don't need to be it's you don't need to tell them you know that you've had STDs or whatever but it's like you can tell them unless you're at an STD clinic which would make you very like effective
• 51:30 - 52:00 counseling to people i know exactly but if you again this is also topic prep when you you can anticipate that when you go into a job interview they're going to ask you about yourself about your work experience what about your life makes you a valuable person here so topic prep that what are things that you've experienced professionally that will make you good in this role what are things that are unique about you personally when I wrote this book about talk something that I realized is I'm uniquely positioned to write this
• 52:00 - 52:30 because I'm an identical twin of course I'm like obsessed with humans i I I'm obsessed with helping other people find this tight-knit shared reality that I have with my twin sister so I should say that i need to say that in an interview on a podcast so that people understand who I am and why that's why I'm a valuable person well let me tell you why we're all going to steal that answer of I'm going to tell you two things about my professional life and two things that are personal number one the framing
• 52:30 - 53:00 immediately made you seem very smart and articulate and prepared yeah and the second thing that I loved about it is that if you're somebody who's nervous it gives you a framework for you to prepare your answers and when you say "I'm going to do two professional and two personal," you're queuing yourself that you have these things to share of course and so I think that's genius we better all steal it and it brings me to the next thing I wanted to ask you about
• 53:00 - 53:30 which is one of the single biggest obstacles to networking to doing well on interviews to negotiating what happens if they do offer you the job which we'll get to in a minute is nerves like you get so nervous about screwing it up that the nerves actually hijack your performance and you have done groundbreaking research research that I've been citing for over seven years
• 53:30 - 54:00 about the physiology of nerves and a researchback hack or reframe or whatever you want to call it a tool that you can use in these moments where it's appropriate to feel nervous cuz you care yeah but you can't allow it to hijack your performance it saved my career it's the thing that I use to overcome stage fright and become the most book female speaker on the planet and without this
• 54:00 - 54:30 simple reframe I never would have built the career that I have it means so much to me to hear that really I use it too but to hear it from people I mean Mel that's incredible thank you no thank you so could you explain to the person listening what was the research that you did about the connection between nerves and excitement and how you can use the findings from your research in moments where you're nervous yeah the So first
• 54:30 - 55:00 of all if you're feeling anxious it's so good it's so good it is such a a clear signal that you care about something what's better than that about human human existence you care about something and that's precious so just keep that in mind feeling anxious means you care um the recipe for anxiety is uncertainty you don't know what's going to happen in the future you don't know how this job interview is going to go you don't know how your work on the job is going to go even in any conversation I don't know
• 55:00 - 55:30 what my partner is going to say next and they could say something tough they could say something confusing they could say something very unexpected and I'm going to have to respond to that yep so uncertainty is the first part of the recipe the second part is lack of control lack of control and uncertainty create these feelings of anxiety and that's what conversation is you don't know what's coming next and you don't have perfect control over what the other person is going to say and do so whether it's a job interview or networking or
• 55:30 - 56:00 salary negotiation whatever of course you're going to feel anxious it's hard and it's it's uncertain and you don't have perfect control so in my research this was from more than a decade ago um it was my dissertation research actually when you're feeling anxious I really wanted to help people um figure out how to cope with it it's not a problem it's just a sign that you care about something and that you don't know how it's going to go and naturally when people feel anxious we focus on how
• 56:00 - 56:30 we're focusing on all the ways that things could go badly yes i start to stutter i forget to say things i say something embarrassing i seem incompetent i don't get the math problems right i don't I my voice cracks whatever you're freaked out about you're thinking about how things can go badly correct the threats mhm so in this research what we found is a very simple reframe when people feel anxious their instinct is to try to calm down all right so does that work no of course not
• 56:30 - 57:00 anxiety is a high arousal emotion which means you have increased cortisol your your palms are sweaty your heart is racing these are all physiological signals of high arousal right trying to make that go away and go down is so hard impossible it's trying to control your body's natural reactions okay so I want to put the person listening at the scene so if you're about to walk into the interview of your life Yeah or you're about to walk into your annual review or you're about to walk in and give the
• 57:00 - 57:30 biggest presentation of your school career or your whatever professional career as you're pacing in the hallway and your armpits are like waterfalls and your heart is racing and your throat is dry and you feel the thump thump thump thump thump of your heart because you're about to go do this thing that you care about and you want to do it well you're saying as you're pacing don't go calm down calm down it's going to be fine you're like "No." And we do all these crazy things we do all you know we do rituals and we we you know take a shot
• 57:30 - 58:00 or we drink the tea or whatever to try and calm down it's like this desperate instinct of like "This I know this isn't good i need to calm down." Fruitless attempts to try and reduce those physiological symptoms instead let's try and take advantage of that energy right this is this is and high energy because you know this is important and you care about it okay so instead of trying to reduce your arousal and move to the positive zone let's just move to the positive zone move from anxiety to excitement and say you know what I'm
• 58:00 - 58:30 aroused because I'm excited about this and instead of thinking about the 100 ways that it could go wrong I'm going to focus on how it could go well we could have such a rewarding conversation they could uncover the fact that I'm the perfect person for this job we could have this conversation and they say you know what you do deserve a great raise we really value you here i we love having you things could go great and so thinking about those good scenarios makes them more likely to actually happen so as you're pacing in the hallway and your heart is racing and
• 58:30 - 59:00 your armpits are sweating and your palms are super clammy how exactly does saying "I'm excited i'm excited i'm excited to give this presentation i'm excited to ask for this raise i'm excited to have this interview." How exactly does that work yeah when you say "I'm excited," especially out loud to someone else imagine you said "Hey Alison how are you feeling about this interview?" If I say "You know what i'm really excited about it." I think it's an amazing opportunity and I just can't wait to make them fall in love with me like wow that changes
• 59:00 - 59:30 how you will actually behave once even though you feel like having stress diarrhea and you want to run away you know what's so funny Mel when I teach it's I've done this reframe for so many for almost 15 years in my mind my body still has these physiological reactions and a lot of people who teach at Harvard have it too you can't sleep the night before you have the racing heart you get the sweaty palms you get the indigestion it's just that in your mind you're flipping from negative to positive i
• 59:30 - 60:00 know all those things are happening in my body because I care about this right and it's an uncertain environment i don't know how my students are going to react i don't have perfect control over what they say and do but what I do have control over is how I think about it that's amazing and didn't you also in the research find that when you tested the reframe of saying "I'm excited i'm excited." That people performed better oh yeah because they didn't derail their preparation because if you get yourself so worked up before a speech or an
• 60:00 - 60:30 interview or a talk with your boss all the preparation goes out the window if you stress yourself out too much by going "I'm going to blow it oh my god oh my god i've got butterflies." You're wasting that very valuable prep time on trying to calm down instead of using that prep time to think about the other person and say "What is what does success look like here what are we aiming for what are my goals what are their goals how can I make this go well?" That's how you should be using that preparation time well you know what's also cool is that typically in those situations when we're nervous and
• 60:30 - 61:00 we get the butterflies and we start to feel anxious and then you start to think about all the things that could go wrong you think something's wrong you're actually saying "No no no no this is a mentally healthy response to being in a situation when you care about the outcome it's mentally healthy and it's so common." Like we all feel that way we're human beings that's how that's how our bodies were built to react to any situation where there's uncertainty and a lack of control um are there any rules of thumb Professor Brooks where you've gone
• 61:00 - 61:30 through the the process of networking and getting an interview and now you've got the final interview is there anything that you should say at the end of the final interview that actually helps you land the job like should you ask for it should you like what is the re is there anything in the research around negotiation on this there is great power in expressing gratitude to people so if you've gone through a process where you'veworked and you've
• 61:30 - 62:00 met lots of people and you've had all these conversational interviews and you've you've clearly taken a lot of people's time right any conversation is co-constructed it's co-created it means that other people are devoting their time and attention to you including a job interview these are people that have jobs to do and they're spending some of their time getting to know you and evaluating you and even though that feels daunting from your perspective it's also uh quite generous from them and so saying "Thank you so much no matter what happens I've really loved
• 62:00 - 62:30 getting to know you and learning from you." That's a very appropriate thing very kind thing to say to them that will land very well so Professor Brooks if you take into account like the decade of research that you've done on the science of conversation teaching two of the most popular courses at Harvard Business School what do you think is the most important lesson or piece of research or behavior change
• 62:30 - 63:00 that the person listening should take away of everything that you shared today that would have the biggest impact on their confidence and their ability to communicate and be influential don't aim for perfection don't aim to be trying to prove how great you are to other people aim for connection think about what other people need and then deliver it to them to the best of your ability you know I've maybe it's all the training as
• 63:00 - 63:30 a lawyer but I've always thought about negotiation is making a case i know and winning and not winning you just flipped it all in its head it's actually about prioritizing the other person and figuring out what they want and then refraraming what you need and want from their point of view if the more people that you can give what they need the more people there are in the world who are poised and ready and
• 63:30 - 64:00 excited to give you what you need back wow it's so counterintuitive no wonder you have to go to Harvard to learn this i guess not though because you just shared it for free here on the Mel Robbins podcast professor Allison Woodbrooks the book is Talk: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves congratulations on it being a bestseller what are your parting words my parting words in the course that I teach called Talk we use a metaphor if
• 64:00 - 64:30 you think of every relationship in your life as a sort of string that starts at hello and goes all the way until the end of your relationship or even the end of your life we like to think of every conversation along that string as like a a light bulb like a cafe light those beautiful strings of lights the goal is to make each one of those conversations glow just a little bit brighter and imagine how much we could light up the world one conversation at a time i love that and the reason why I love that is
• 64:30 - 65:00 because I think particularly if you're taking this advice and you're trying to apply it to creating more meaningful career feeling like you're more influential feeling like your contributions get recognized whether it's at home or at school or in the workplace or in your business you can get very discouraged if you get to one light bulb that doesn't light up yeah and I love that image because if you're
• 65:00 - 65:30 at a moment where you feel like you've gotten a lot of nos or closed doors those actually are light bulbs on the string and your job is to just keep going to the next one and trust that eventually you're going to get to the one that shines super bright and some of them will brown out some of them will explode some of them will never light up at all but just know that in the future there are more light bulbs to come and just keep aiming just keep trying try try to get them to glow a little bit brighter
• 65:30 - 66:00 wow i I mean that's a big light bulb moment for me professor Allison Woodbrooks thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you Mel and thank you for being here for investing in yourself for sharing this i know you're going to share this with a ton of people and I also know that everything that you learn today from all this research at Harvard Business School is going to help you be more influential it's going to help you nail the interviews and do the networking because
• 66:00 - 66:30 you do deserve to have a career that makes you proud of yourself and now you got some of the tools that are going to help you go create it and in case no one else tells you I wanted to be sure to tell you that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life now take everything that Allison Wood Brooks taught you today and go make it happen i'll be waiting for you in the very next episode as soon as you hit play i'll see you there and for you thank you for being here with me on
• 66:30 - 67:00 YouTube and thank you for watching all the way to the end wasn't it so cool to get all of these strategies and insight from a professor at Harvard Business School i love this kind of stuff and I know you love it too so thank you for watching thank you for being here till the end thank you for sharing this with people in your life who you know deserve this information too and one more thing it is a goal of mine that 50% of the people that watch this channel are subscribers and it's free so I know
• 67:00 - 67:30 you're the kind of person that loves supporting people that support you i know you love getting all these incredible videos with worldrenowned experts and so one thing you could do for me just hit subscribe it tells me that you really love what we're doing here and it helps support my team in bringing you new videos every single day as a free resource for you and the people that you care about all righty i know what you're thinking mel I love this what's the next video I should watch great question i think you should check out this one i think you're going to love it and I'm going to be waiting for you in it the second you hit play
• 67:30 - 68:00 i'll see you there