A Journey Through Sales Leadership and Personal Growth
The Sales Confidence Podcast: Neil Ryland, CCO at Normative
Estimated read time: 1:20
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Summary
In this episode of the Sales Confidence Podcast, James Ski sits down with Neil Ryland, CCO at Normative, to discuss his impactful journey in the sales industry. Neil shares insights from his experiences, reflecting on his transition from recruitment to tech, the foundational moments of his career at Huddle, and his subsequent roles leading to his current position. The conversation delves into personal and professional growth, the importance of fostering a strong company culture, and the pivotal role of sales confidence. Through candid anecdotes, Neil offers valuable advice on sales success, leadership, and maintaining confidence and motivation. A must-listen for anyone in sales looking to glean insights from a seasoned leader.
Highlights
Neil's journey from a recruitment agency to tech success reflects determination and seizing opportunities 🚀.
The importance of culture at Huddle and its impact on future careers is emphasized 🏢.
Neil advises nurturing a network for mutual professional growth 🤝.
Focus on authenticity and likability as key traits in sales success 😌.
Key Takeaways
Always be authentic and comfortable in your own skin 🧘♂️.
Building and investing in your network is crucial for long-term success 🌐.
Focus on strengths rather than weaknesses to boost confidence and performance 💪.
Embrace mission-driven goals for motivation and impact 🌍.
Prioritize people and culture in any business environment 🤝.
Overview
Neil Ryland shares his illustrious career path, beginning with his transition from recruitment to tech, propelled by a pivotal opportunity at Huddle. Reflecting on his journey, Neil highlights the significance of a supportive company culture in fostering talent and the profound impact it has had on his career trajectory. His insights into the evolution of sales emphasize adapting to industry changes while retaining core values.
The conversation delves into the mechanics of successful leadership and sales strategies, where Neil stresses the importance of authenticity and investing in relationships. He underscores that building a solid network and continuously working on personal and professional growth are keys to thriving in the sales domain. A focus on strengths over weaknesses emerges as a crucial strategy for overcoming challenges and advancing in the sales industry.
Through his role at Normative, Neil reveals his passion for mission-driven work and the importance of impactful leadership. He articulates the company's goal of guiding businesses towards Net Zero emissions, highlighting the integration of meaningful goals into corporate objectives. Neil's story is a testament to the power of resilience, adaptability, and commitment in steering a successful career in sales leadership.
The Sales Confidence Podcast: Neil Ryland, CCO at Normative Transcription
00:00 - 00:30 welcome to the sales confidence podcast with myself James ski uh the founder and CEO of sales confidence uh this is our opportunity to learn from worldclass sales leaders inspirational SAS Founders and the next generation of salesperson uh bringing their value uh and inspiration to the market this is probably one of the most exciting um guests that I'm having on cuz it's Neil
00:30 - 01:00 isand who was the individual that gave me my first role into the SAS industry Neil it's great to have you here James always a pleasure and I agree I've been looking forward to this a lot really looking forward to this yeah like honestly I was I was just reflecting on this um last night and you know genuinely obviously over 12 years now we we've built a a close friendship but you know W without you opening the door for me um you know I may never have pursued this route and and I could have end up doing something very different maybe I
01:00 - 01:30 would have been stuck in recruitment now oh no saved you from that world but but to be fair it set you up pretty well mate it set you up pretty well no it's good and we're gonna get stuck in today there's a there's a lot of history between um Neil and I and uh there's going to be some great stories in this conversation and uh look forward to learning more so I mean that's that's kind of a good place to start really is just um just to find out what you're most excited about today now in in all honesty you know when you messaged me on doing I know we catch up a lot but it was I just these flashbacks of those
01:30 - 02:00 early days of huddle and the fun and the excitement it triggers memories right of those type of environments so in all honesty it's like catching up with an old friend rather than like a sales podcast so just actually you just having a good chat on Good Times and some good memories I agree and it's it's almost like in some ways it would have been cool if we like we could have captured all these stories over the years right because we've had a lot of conversations one to one uh you know especially when I was your subordinate like chipping on your heels wanting more pay Rising and
02:00 - 02:30 promotions so it's actually nice to see um you know how far our careers progressed amazing and and you were never my subordinate I can't stand that word you you were you were an unbelievable colleague and I say that in a nice way don't get me wrong you're a pain in the backside at times but um you know you it's just brilliant to see this as well and how far you've come so yeah I'm looking forward to talk through the Journey yeah appreciate it now um so let's go back to where did we first meet then so you remember the days of silicon round roundabout and it was like you
02:30 - 03:00 know the the tech scene had just kicked off and huddle ra on the roundabout orbe it the grungiest looking building on the roundabout uh but we had you remember the boardroom they had that glass ho that looked over the roundabout and we had our interview and I was said obviously interviews have changed over time Styles how you approach them but what you're finally trying to do is create some kind of connection with someone outside of stats on a CV and I think you were the pioneer of pulling on the Heartstrings
03:00 - 03:30 when you showed at the end of your presentation a picture of your son Harry being like please give my daddy a job and I have this like like Photo box memory of that moment sat with Matt Wise you know um and being like we got to give this guy a chance we have to give this guy a chance he's got all the raw materials to be unbelievably good at it um but what do you recall from That Into You know it's funny I do because I remember the boardroom you know looking over the roundabout and I literally I was on my lunch break I had to run from my recruitment agency which was like a
03:30 - 04:00 boiler room you know they sniffed out anyone that was in an interview and I was sitting in my suit like you know ready to go over and try and impress and I genuinely I was desperate to get out of that agency um you know I was a new father I was literally only 23 um I really had the like idea that Tech was the industry that I wanted to get into and I think huddle being a British founded business you know on our doorstep was a great opportunity I don't know Recall why I had that moment but I thought I've got a kid like they need to
04:00 - 04:30 know that I need the money and I'm going to work hard for this gig um you know so I snapped up that that presentation and I remember it sitting there thinking one to be honest it's funny because I haven't really thought about I thought you know it's quite a proud moment like I'm a dad and you know that now cuz you're a father uh and I was just like I really want these guys to give me a chance um you know to prove what I can do and you know thankfully you did so here we are yeah go unbelievable times I that me cumulus now I think back to it named after for the clouds yeah God oh my God good memories um so what like
04:30 - 05:00 huddle was like I mean it spawned so many um fantastic individuals like businesses people that came out of that Journey but what were your lessons from from your time at huddle I think there's so many and you're right like I think allly and Andy founded it like I think they probably still draw inspiration when they look at how people gone on to build careers in Tech of the fact they gave people a chance early and the brand was was so well known I think I think I've taken
05:00 - 05:30 from that into every role or any of these conversations or where you know I'm humbl enough people ask for advice is like the power of that culture the power of that culture and the fact that people look back on it so fondly and there are still friendships that are built off the back of it so thinking around culture I think on the other side I think what we all learned from that is is focus that was an exploding Market you know you kind of go from you know the sea drives to going in the cloud we were kind of part of that big transformation and there was so much you could do like project management
05:30 - 06:00 document management file sharing like there was just wiks you you name it and I think one of the things that picked up from that was the power of focus you know be brilliant at one thing and nail it um and then I think the last thing again that I take with me is is the academy and we kind of touched on it with so it's our careers but there are many other stories where if you make the investment in great individuals then they can go on and do great things within your company and you know there's the the CFO is in the room there's the Practical things of people that have in the compy longer they they on board into
06:00 - 06:30 new roles much faster they tend to be more loyal they know the product they care about the brand so I think how you can you take that young Talent nurture it and give people an opportunity um so I think those are the three things that always stand out for me when I think back at my time at hon you know what I think back to the SDR Academy in particular and I look at some of the individuals that came out of that and what they've gone into to do their career so a bit of a side note but I was in Australia for the first time earlier this year seeing um my sister who's
06:30 - 07:00 lived out there for 10 years and Adam Gody yeah right um and I and like you know Adam and I were got extremely close um when we were at hudle and he admit he probably won't me saying like he he had some challenges adjusting to kind of the B2B SAS World um and you know being in sales at the time but literally he's gone on to like you know travel the world move across the world have a stellar career and like there's just endless individuals that had that had an
07:00 - 07:30 impact and I think you know when I think about the inspiration around sales confidence a lot of it came from how we fostered Talent at huddle and gave people a chance because I think also we you know it wasn't a case there was a lot of diversity it wasn't a case of that you had to be you know a Russell group University candidate that's not the profile that you were after so um I mean I'm going off in t but what what type of what what type of people were you looking for back then to to join the the business at that stage yeah think think it's interesting because I think
07:30 - 08:00 actually at the core of it the traits I look for haven't really changed and you put remember acronym of L which is like loyalty attitude tenacity and and I pry bore people I chat to on it but but it's because I just don't know how to coach those things I don't know anyone that can coach them I think those things are either innately important to you or they're not and I think if you have that in your DNA then in early stage startups you've got every opportunity to be successful I like by loyal I mean like you know if plan a doesn't work you know you stick at it there's 26 letters in
08:00 - 08:30 the alphabet keep going um I think there's the C do attitude I mean you know I'm sure we'll get onto it there was tough days at huddle there's been tough days in sales com home we've caught up but you know like the sun does set and the sun does rise right and if you if you work with great people you can pick them back up right there is no problem that can't be solved and I think that kind of C do attitude is something you kind of look for and then that tenacity right like trying to build in a startup and do something disruptive you normally you normally have a David Goliath batt to WR in startups you've
08:30 - 09:00 got an enemy or a massive Market you want to go and disrupt you want to change you want to get a piece of that pie well you've got to have the fire in the belly to go and do it you know and I think people that come in with that energy and that passion to want to do it are those things I I looked for then and I and I look for now still you know in what third third startup game well that's is it and like you know you've had an exceptional Journey from um hudle we're going to learn more about what you're doing today um but I guess once once once that Journey at huddle ended
09:00 - 09:30 how did you identify the next business um peon and and and what what were some of the highlights and learnings from from that Journey yeah definitely I mean it it was interesting because I I kind of was thinking what do I want to do is it like what do I really enjoy doing and I I I love coaching I love building I that that's my strength and and what I get a kick out of um and then when I reflected back on what HUD was doing it was this kind of like explosion into a a hot a hot Market that was disrupting something I was like okay well that s
09:30 - 10:00 good but what do I love about it culture I love the people and then I started thinking like well how do you how do you tell people how to do that like I know people always go you got good culture bad culture classic interview questions What's the culture like here Work Hard Play Hard okay how do you turn that into data and that kind of got me thinking on what space I wanted to be in I wanted to help people to build great cultures because if you have that you you've got a chance of winning uh and and that's kind of how it more often I was lucky enough to know Casper who was um part of the podio team so they're kind of
10:00 - 10:30 Frenemies of huddle and so those connections were born and I kind of just fell in love the idea of like could could you take a datadriven approach to building a world-class culture that set you up to be successful um and then when I met the founders of of peacon I could see they were they were people people but they also had big Ambitions big plans they wanted to do something special and do it the right way uh so that's that was kind of part of the thought process and and how I ended up in a very small Danish company and I met some people like are you crazy like you
10:30 - 11:00 know they're they're like seed funded they're like 15 people and they're in Denmark what do you know about Danish and Nordic culture but you know youve got to trust your gut sometimes of like you know are they great Founders I do they care about people have they got big Ideas you know is the market big enough to be successful in and do you feel you can go on a Learning Journey there and it ticked all those boxers and I'm so grateful that the founders gave me that opportunity and what was the outcome for peon so we I mean we two things really so one very similar story to we on hard right in terms of some of the people
11:00 - 11:30 that have now gone on and and have great careers and successes so that's one great outcome of it but as a business we we exited to workday uh in the middle of the pandemic actually uh for 700 million uh and then I moved and transitioned into my my role at workday it was a yeah from zero to like what was it 75 80 million turnover in in six seven years it was it was just yeah it was it was unbelievable um and some amazing people I got to work with on that on that journey and some brilliant customers as well though have become friends love that that's
11:30 - 12:00 fantastic um you know it's when I have these conversations with it's almost like you could just take that chapter you know we could have a whole conversation um but I want to learn a bit more about you um as an individual um because I think that's at the heart of um you know the story what's what's the what's the first thing you typically wake up um and think about now did I pack my daughter's Nursery bag correctly what have I forgotten for her before I going to going to work um no I I'm a kind of person of habits
12:00 - 12:30 you know you know I only wear the white shirts I tried to think like what the what what decisions can you kind of like take stress out of your life on because you have to make enough decisions in in life and roles anyway right so and also I'm not particularly good at Fashion so I was like that's one that I can just sort so I never have to worry about what clothes I'm going to wear um typically I'm I'm up and I've looked at my diary the day before so I know what I've got to got to focus on um tend to get in like the kind of classic kind of cold shower pint of water before I do
12:30 - 13:00 anything else and it just allows me to give five minutes to be like you what are the three things I need to get done today and they're not always work related they can sometimes be like personal things but it's like wherever happens those three things get done MH and that that just helps me to feel you know if you're having like it's quarter end or you know you're your new Mark whatever it might be I'm going for a house renovation right now there could be a million one things I think that just five minutes to set your day up is so important I was talking about like how do you how do you avoid the downward spiral and you know those Monday
13:00 - 13:30 mornings when you get out of bed stub your toe you spill coffee on your white shirt your kid sick on you you miss the train like it's this spiral effect and I think if you're able to kind of take those five minutes so when those things happen you can prevent the next three things happening or they don't stress you out and cause five more things to happen so I think finding that time has helped me to get into a better routine of of how I operate compared to where I was you know probably even five years ago good for you uh and what about um your own motiv ation inspiration because
13:30 - 14:00 you know you've obviously gone on to achieve huge things but where where where where do you think that comes from I think a lot of it comes from my family I like my family and I'm from a pretty rural part of suffk um and I think to be challenge yourself against the best you've got to go against the best right and the best typically are in cities in London you know I wanted to go out and and and better where I was and and prove that I could be successful um and you know I get a lot of support from from my parents very lucky in that sense in
14:00 - 14:30 terms of like morale and being proud and I think that kind of motivates you to go on and now I've kind of got my own family and that that gives me inspiration to you talk to you want to do the right thing by Harry I mean one of the reasons I'm at normative of coming to Dad was like you if she goes into school and says what what does your dad do like questions I was like I don't want to just be like sales you know I wanted it to be like his playing his part in something more meaningful which is how I ended up in kind of climate change now and I think the last part is like and maybe it's cheesy maybe it's corny but it's genuinely true I get such
14:30 - 15:00 a kick out even when you mention Adam Godfrey you know I get such motivation out of the people that I work with and particularly people that I've been on the journey with so normal there's quite a few people I've worked with previously and my motivation now is like they've they've put their trust in me and I want to make sure they've got this amazing story on their CV like it's my responsibility to like make sure every day that they're feeling pumped and they're getting and that when they see that I then kind of get like a massive kick out of it and to be fair to you like that is that is a testament um you
15:00 - 15:30 know to the experiences that you've created for people I did notice that you know at normative there's a lot of people that you've worked with previously and they want to follow you as a leader and you know you're having an impact and you're right that like that's presses really it's Priceless you can't really put a price on that um and so that's good to see uh obviously we're a we're a sales um uh a podcast um what was your first experience of sales yeah I was I say like a lot of people you kind of first is like oh God I need some extra money so you know you're washing cars you're trying to figure out ways
15:30 - 16:00 that you can sell cheering G my birthday is November so I learned to drive like faster than some other people so I would be doing like McDonald's runs and putting like sub charges on top of like Big Mac you know like all all those things um but my first I was real experience of sales and where I I failed and struggled was I joke my degree is in sport Science I've got a degree in catching you know it's uh but it got me into other CES cuz I I trained to be a personal trainer and being a personal trainer you've got to go into a gym and
16:00 - 16:30 find a way to get people to want to train with you I'm 5 foot nothing it's not like I'm this 6 foot four bloke that hey look let me show you how to squat 200 kg you know it's not that appealing and then I really struggled to have the confidence to go up to people and build business and then that that's why I ended up having to like stop that um and I I was more in debt had my first year of work than what I was after University because I kind of plowed so much money in trying to do this personal training business my own other business that I
16:30 - 17:00 ended up simly falling into sales kind of out of this desperation of like I just need to get some money quickly and build up my confidence because otherwise I don't know what I'm going to do so that yeah that was my kind of first real Adventure into sales and a really unsuccessful one wow you know I don't I'm sure you have told that story but it's interesting to hear that people's starting points you know from from every angle um so yeah cool to hear um if you think about the stages um from being a PT you know to where you
17:00 - 17:30 are now leading Global sales teams like what what do you think's made you successful at each stage of of your growth I think I think there's two things I I realized pretty quickly I didn't know anyone in the city I didn't know anyone in the industry um and the only way you can do that is like commit and invest in your time in in the people around you and I genuinely wanted to absorb everything and I and I still say that today like if there's a chance to get out and do a networking event if
17:30 - 18:00 there is a way to stay in touch with people on LinkedIn through WhatsApp groups now I really invested in in getting to know people like you know that first role as an SDR you know people about the C managers looking after the sdrs like take them for coffee you get to come on face to face meetings I was that SDR that was like if you book three meetings you can come out with me to a trip to Cardiff and do three face Toof face meetings and the thought of doing like a trip to Cardiff and three face to face meetings now you be like really as I whatever you want I I will
18:00 - 18:30 find a way to do that because then I got a whole journey to Cardiff with a senior account manager you know picking their brains on how they ran presentations what research did they do do before and then ideally you want them to then help you back and I think I still do that today like in terms of I I really wanted to invest in my network and then the second thing is I try to live by the rule and I definitely don't always do this you know because it's hard but like if you work hard and you're always kind to people you just have those two things in the back of your head I think you can
18:30 - 19:00 go quite far and and that's it I'm not I'm not the best at cold calling I'm definitely not the best at like running presentations um I'm not the best of data but I always use my network to help me to plug the gaps and I would say like you'd have to work really really hard or to or sweat pretty hard to beat me on work ethic that is fair and and that was kind of my and that probably has a negative side to it which we could we should come to but I think just as a mindset I've I've always worked on my network work I've always tried to be the best version of myself that I can be and
19:00 - 19:30 and and be kind yeah I mean without a doubt um I mean we we we we both share that work ethic but i' I've seen you know your intensity of focus um to continuously strive even as you've reached these kind of um additional Milestones is is is a great great asset so that's really really interesting to see um you you just like moving on now to where you're at
19:30 - 20:00 today um uh tell us a little bit about normative and and also like what what is the DNA of this company that you think it makes it a special place yeah definitely so I'm now working called normative doio so we're helping organizations on their journey to Net Zero and obviously I'm biased but I don't think there could be a bigger mission on the planet right we we all live on the planet and this Mission impacts every single human being um and what we're helping organizations is to do is to basically capture all the insights around their emissions so where
20:00 - 20:30 we choose to host this podcast you know right the way through to like what trucks Vehicles do you drive enable people basically to make better informed decisions on accurate carbon data um both for compliance reasons but equally because this is like the biggest transformation that's happened probably since the Industrial Revolution right you could do with the digital Revolution but now organizations have to change their whole Supply chains to try to hit Net Zero you know but not just for their business and to make money and make opportunities because otherwise there probably isn't going to be a planet you
20:30 - 21:00 know in years to come so that's it's unbelievably exciting what makes it exciting I think is that it's it's Mission driven you know and that sounds like quite a Cheesy thing to say because I think everyone writes on the wall now we're a mission driven company but but what does that actually mean it means that we hire against it we hire people that genuinely care and can talk to it but we want to win you know that's what makes it special we want to win we want to win for the mission we want to win for the individuals I want this to be a culture where people look back and go I learned so much on that journey I went
21:00 - 21:30 from SDR to AE I went from AE into leadership or you know whatever that journey is unless you want to win for the customers you know so I think what makes it special is we have an adopted term that we took from peom which I absolutely loved which was you know um serious not seriously and what I mean by that is that we're in a really serious role like working big customers with a great big mission but we don't take ourselves too seriously like life is short right you know you can you can always re earn money but you can't re earn time and I think therefore working
21:30 - 22:00 in a company that you want to be part of is what makes this really really special interesting so so how does normative like generally benefit a company like what's the value prop yeah there there's kind of two parts to it really so that the first part is I think if someone said to you what does carbon look like it's quite a hard thing to to picture yeah so the idea is that we can make carbon visible for all IE so that you don't have to be an ESG climate strategy expert to understand decisions that you can make as a leader to reduce your carbon emissions the outcome of that is that one you need
22:00 - 22:30 to be compliant you know the world is moving to a world of compliance around this this is no longer like put a green logo on your website and say you're doing the right thing you know there are penalties and risks Associated to not doing it access to Capital but like with all these things like the world's becoming more conscious in what we what we buy so what markets you had access to before you may not have access to anymore unless you're able to demonstrate that you are doing the right thing on a path to Net Zero and normative job is to help to address both of those challenges terms of what um
22:30 - 23:00 just give us a bit of insight into the stage that you've joined and you know that you said the company wants to win what's the ambition of of the business yeah so I I like I said I kind of love the building phase and after the you know the exit and I um worked a workday for a while and there's some amazing people in that company as well and definitely learned a lot from being in a much larger corporate some good things you can take from it but I realized that my passion and what I love doing what gets me up in the morning and and and smiling and happy is is this build mode so I wanted to join a company that had
23:00 - 23:30 Ambitions to become the standard you know to be like the verb you know you Google something you know like and I think normative has opportunity we want to become the norm when you think about the Benchmark the standard for understanding your carbon emissions you think normative you know I think that's a really nice big goal to run at um and to say that you know you contributed to a net zero world so I think there's um yeah there's lot of lot of lot of big Ambitions to do and it's a very immature
23:30 - 24:00 but also big Market I think that again is quite exciting you have an opportunity to create the standards um and Lead which you know gets you pumped up right yeah I love that um you know we've got all range of um listeners on this those that are just figuring out how to get into sales those at a later stage in their their career just a bit on a more tactical side um just from a sales perspective is there is there a sales book that you've kind of got inspiration from um that you recommend
24:00 - 24:30 Gally to people yeah so there's always two that spring to mind actually three three um so I think one of the first sales books that I read I'm not not a great reader I think goodness for podcasts now and but like um customer Centric selling by Mike boso it's quite an old school sales book but the reason I love it is that like when you're struggling or you're having a tough time right or trying to get into sales and I come from like a world of sport right like the eyes is like just do the basics really well you rebuild your confidence
24:30 - 25:00 get the basics in place and now your only enemy is time right but eventually you will get there if you're doing the basics consistently I think that book is fantastic at just thinking about the right questions to ask the right style of email followup you know everyone calls it hyper personalization now and all those things but that book covered that really early and I think it's a great one to kind of go back to if you're having like a tough time and you can highlight the pages and pick up a couple of things but yes I'm going to apply that the other book that I love is the framework for being able to pitch anything thing I think in today's world
25:00 - 25:30 where you know again all the stats around like buyers have already made 70% decision have all the information ahead of time you know you don't have very long to capture someone's attention and I think that book is very good at teaching people techniques around reframing and how to be very Crystal Clear within a couple of minutes around how you can understand what someone needs and wants and how you can kind of Drive some connection um to be successful but the one that um I would always recommend to people um to me is the chimp Paradox um because I think that helped
25:30 - 26:00 me going through the phase of sales of in particular from the transition from being an individual contributor into leadership I think you need really really need to understand yourself if you're going to be able to coach others you have to be authentic you know people have to trust you like and sometimes you're making tough decisions that people don't like you in the short term they really don't like you but you hope and I'm sure there's plent of times who' had those conversations right but you like to think in the mid to long term they'll look back and be like I'm really
26:00 - 26:30 glad that they guided me through that but I think that has to come that you need to know yourself and what your core values are and what makes you the person that you are so that you can build trust if there's no trust nothing works absolutely agree with that um what are the best sales people that um what what the traits of the best sales people that you've come across yeah well I think there's a few people right from the hudle days like you will stand out for your your work ethic I come back to lat as something that's like my fundamentals but I think then there's the the some of the obvious ones that
26:30 - 27:00 come up about being inquisitive I think you know the number of times that we'd sat down and had conversations around like I've got this idea on this account I've got this idea of how we can do these account management plans I've got this and I love that right it's this idea of how do we get better how do we get better what are those kind of one of changes that you could just tweak and be brave enough to try them and I think that's a really good good skill set but I think also over time what it what it is Steve OB is another person that that Springs to mind a lot um but I think it's people that are really comfortable in their own skin I think a
27:00 - 27:30 lot of time when you're in sales and you're doing interviews like there's this kind of idea that you put on like a a different skin to convince people or persuade people to do things and I think actually the best reps that I've come across or the people I've like bought from now are the people that are just themselves and they're really comfortable being themselves um you know like put after to show but like my wife is in sales and like you know she's fantastic it's just being her and I think that's why people end up being
27:30 - 28:00 likable and I think if you have that likable skill set which comes from being humble and just being yourself they for me are the best cells up to consistently win you know what I I I think about this you know likability Factor all the time I I honestly believe to your point if you are more self-aware you know you practice humility and you are yourself people warm to that yeah and and likeability does matter like you said you've got to capture people's attention and uh people want to spend PE time with
28:00 - 28:30 people they enjoy you know if you've got to go through a process and do business someone you might as well enjoy the experience um or or or you're going to have to begrudgingly go for it so I I honestly feel like you know people really need to figure out and find out you know are are they likable like um because it's not something you really taught you you know like people sometimes have it naturally more than others but I do think it's something you can H so and you said every every process you that's the deals you've worked on over time like every process had speed bumps you know like if you're in a comparison in RFP there's always
28:30 - 29:00 going to be features this one have and you don't have and vice versa right so you have to figure out okay well what is that kind of magical above and beyond thing that they can't get from anywhere else people can copy a product they can copy a marketing message they can't copy you so how do you make you the USP and I think the people that are likeable people can find ways to to do that um and in abundance and that's so important in startups right because you're competing with the big guys that have way more resources but they're never
29:00 - 29:30 going to have you so how many times people think about how am I the secret weapon and how do I come across in the right way to support this buyer through their Journey great advice great great for people to reflect on um sales has gone through you know massive changes um where do you think it's going yeah I think probably every every year right there's a new piece of tech that comes out that says the the the kind of cold cooling's dead the old school sales is dead and it's never it's never quite to come to fruition so I think the fundamentals will still say the same to
29:30 - 30:00 what we just talked through but I do think the way that people buy buy changes you know the explosion of AI is a classic example where you you get asked a lot of what are you doing and I think a lot of it is how do you drive better productivity you know if I look at the great tools that exist now of it's like the sales l in the Outreach World they've changed from when we were like trying to send out emails the whole time you know and thank goodness for like grammar that was like a big change for us right have like getting that right and now now you can automate cadences and not do anything and now someone can write your cadences for you but like really practical example of how we've applied this at normative is like
30:00 - 30:30 we still have the highest conversion rates to demos when we're on the phone when we're speaking to someone and those demos have the highest conversion rate to Clos one Revenue because they speak to someone they meet someone they get to share their chall we're still humans you still want to connect with the human and therefore I think actually what we use AI for is to take out some of the stuff that maybe humans aren't as good at so supporting on emails doing the research but what it does is it frees up the time to do the stuff that a machine's never going to be able to do like build a human connection and I think you know we
30:30 - 31:00 measure now like our basically our Handover meetings and how many spoke to human since that's such a like 2023 statement isn't spoke to human rather than spoke to robot but we can now track that data and it frees up the team to spend more time doing that so I think actually what it's going to transform is that even more you have to focus on your personality skills your interpersonal skills your collaboration skills because otherwise a robot could do it so I think that's one thing that people will think think more through and then the other thing is how do you create more and more of these the the b2c kind of selling
31:00 - 31:30 experience like how do you find ways to create a more engaging sales environment where the buyer can really get involved in what you're doing rather than static presentations you know everyone is fed up with zooms right like you know I think there has to be aware when we think about how time the whole time how do we engage more in the process whether that's collaborative tools of going through it like the portals of interacting with presentations having to build them access to the product you know like Drop are the Masters or were the masters of the kind of Premium that
31:30 - 32:00 product Le funnel isn't it but you know I think those things will really change the way that we continue to sell yeah definitely um so like taking into account how sales is changing um the type of uh top performers that you've come across like what advice would you give a salesperson earlier in their career that's you know trying to navigate this and wants to become a success uccessful leader in your shoes um later on in their career
32:00 - 32:30 yeah I mean let me let me reflect them but I think there three three things that always come to mind and one is if you want to be successful you're going to have to work hard and I wish there was like this amazing answer say all you have to do is this this and this but you the fundamentals are going to have to work hard that or you're going to have to play the lottery a lot and hope you get lucky but I would want to bet my career on being lucky so I think one thing is you've got to work hard I think the second thing is just be yourself be comfortable being you you know and and
32:30 - 33:00 people will like you just be comfortable being you that work hard be kind to people and the third one is invest in your network I'm so grateful that I got to work with some unbelievable leaders you know if like my my first manager Dave me we talked about Matt Wise earlier Simon o Kane uh Leslie young in the US um pH and Casper peacon and and now Christian the founder at normative like I've just worked with some great people and I've invested time getting to know them and how I can support them how can I make their lives
33:00 - 33:30 a bit easier but then the trick is I think like on your when you sell a deal and it gets P to the customer success team or your account management team how often do you check back in with that person and I think people that do that that would be my advice invest in your network be comfortable in your own skin you know and you know work hard give it your R good reminders um we're all about confidence uh at s's confidence where do you get your Confidence from um I'm not always like a
33:30 - 34:00 particularly confident person I kind of have to like mentally motivate myself sometimes to do it and I'm driven a lot by by the fear of failure so my my confidence sometimes comes from the fact of like I don't want to regret the things I've done but I know I'll regret the things I didn't do and I think that's why I went traveling as a as a kid it's like I ended up playing rugby it's like well I'm not giving golf a go because I'm getting a bit old and slow you know but I think my confidence and I don't know if it's good advice or not
34:00 - 34:30 but it's the truth is like I I found out what motivated me like what makes me have Works me sad and be like I don't want to be in that position like that's way worse than just being brave and getting up on that stage and doing that presentation you know I don't the person goes he didn't want to do the presentation and then I think the the second thing that helps me with confidence is is is I prep I know that that's one of the challenges that I have so I I I invest the time to prepare to give me confidence um and again I come back to your network lean on your nwork work lean on your network I feel confident doing a podcast with you
34:30 - 35:00 because I know that I could connect with you beforehand I could do my prayer we have the conversation Etc and so I come on to us been like this is just two mates chatting well I've done some podcasts before where you like got the screens all around you like um tap tap tap and people can see it so I think figure out like what makes you you nervous you know and taking a deep deep breath um doing your prep correctly and again chat to someone on it it's no no no shame in not feeling confident sometimes yeah I agree like you know there's people around you
35:00 - 35:30 that can fill the gaps and and kind of lift you up and often our self talk narrative puts you down yeah um and you take for granted for the skills and where you've come I mean even again because we've known each other for so long and so like this is quite a nostalgic moment having this conversation you know last night and this morning on the way here I was like reflecting and of course sometimes I look at you know my journey in business and there's so much more I would have hoped to achieve or so much further that
35:30 - 36:00 I would have got and then I actually take a step back and think well you know like I I was that that guy that ran down the road from a recruitment agency you know had no understanding of what SAS was 12 years ago um you know now I'm sitting in a professional podcast Studio interviewing the the guy that gave me that opportunity and all sorts of other cool things in my life and fre kids and like you you you you know you you do sometimes forget the journey that you've been on because we're we're chasing new goals new targets especially in sales um
36:00 - 36:30 and I I'm in I'm about to publish um my first book how to build sales confidence and I even think about that Journey but one of the areas in there is like around gratitude and if I'm honest in my 20s and trying to kind of climb the ladder in in you know various software companies I don't I don't think I really paus much to reflect um it's only as I've got kind of more mature and I've settled down into life and you know
36:30 - 37:00 family life where I'm like do you know what actually you just got to be grateful for where you're at right now yeah take stock of it I think it's a really important thing in the diary I give this advice to my team now and I I wish I'd done it earli in my career um that I have in my diary think time you know and it's a it's a genuine Blocker in my diary because that allows me just to like make better decisions when you're racing around the whole time is you only ever see what's in front of your nose you and therefore you often
37:00 - 37:30 make a mistake that creates more workload further down the line you know so I think it's really important to take that time to think and just reflect and you're right outside of work when you're feeling a bit stressed just take a look how far you've come you and everyone would have been on a journey that should take some pride in to get where they are today and the good thing is that you've always got tomorrow to kind of step up again when you need to so I think it's yeah it's really good advice to share with people great advice uh well on that Journey you know have you experienced some kind of hardships on your journey that you've
37:30 - 38:00 kind of had to break through and and overcome yeah I mean everyone has their I think their moments and it's how how you overcome them and like I think the first thing is to remember like you're never as bad is what you think you are and you're also Never As Good As sometimes what you think other people think you are and trying to find that nice steady equilibrium the whole time and find your ways that keeps you in there but I had a like 2016 I always think as like one of the scars and I think scars are there to remind you that you can come through tough times um I
38:00 - 38:30 had a really tough year you know like i' I'd split with a partner at the time I just made this big jump into this new tech company where it's like my first time going in as a as a cro rather than like internal promotions where you've kind of you've earned your credibility stock right so you kind of you you naturally have this level of confidence going into it whereas this was like you're hired build it there isn't someone above me that can kind of give me air cover or anything else is like this is your baby you need to run it and build it and I'd lost a family member at the time it just felt like the ground underneath me just wasn't stable wasn't
38:30 - 39:00 stable at all um and I had to really and that's when I read the chimp Paradox and it really came back to like okay what are the things I can control that are really important to me and I'm going to focus on those and it also gave me the kind of strength to go like everyone looks at like where their gaps are where their weaknesses are the things they're not great at and you spend ages trying to make yourself a three out of 10 on something that maybe is just not your thing whereas you're a nine at something else and you could probably get that to a 10 and that's a bigger multiplier than going from a one to a two on something
39:00 - 39:30 that you're not great at it's one of those performance review things it's like where are your weaknesses it's like I think it's so important to share people what their strengths are and give them the ability to double down on them because then they feel good it builds confidence so I think that was a rout of here had to like self-reflect on on some of things I really enjoy doing that I think that I can be even better at and and focus on those now um but yeah there's you know everyone's had tough quarters months where you don't sell and my advice in those situations is go back to the Basics spend time with peers and mentors and don't be afraid to ask for
39:30 - 40:00 help and work hard well thanks for sharing and um you know it's it's that type of resolve that allows you to kind of um develop and and progress um so thanks for the honesty and just I think you're like a really good example of that and I think that's we talk about like how do you come across as likable it's about showing the vulnerabilities I think so many people still don't do that now there's an art like you can overshare of course but like I think there is a an element of being you and that includes your vulnerabilities and that helps to make people likable and
40:00 - 40:30 the other skill I've always admired about you like even when um the early huddle days when it comes to your recruitment skill it's just a natural thing you're great at it's like I don't know how well this translates globally but the word favor in the English language is a phenomenal one right because it's very hard to say no to a favor yeah so one do them for people it's the right thing to do it's part of being kind but also don't be afraid to ask for them you and I think that's really important when you're having tough times because you be most Happ people want to help you as well that's yeah that's fair I I appreciate that
40:30 - 41:00 observation one of the things I've tried to you know navigate obviously as you know I've got my bipolar diagnosis and I've had these uh kind of intense uh admissions into hospital and you know I I always kind of you're absolutely there is a balance now because we are more open generally I think as a generation and society and I think also social media to a positive has allowed people to open up but I do feel there is this there is this oversharing sometimes and I I'm always a bit mindful of the balance of how much
41:00 - 41:30 you you kind of open up and but I I still do believe genuinely like people's lives aren't or roses that is the reality so you know if you if you are just continuously creating an image that isn't you know your story people can sniff it out um and I I think there's a lot to be said for you know opening up and and and Sh sharing some of those um vulnerabilities you don't need to share it all a time and place um to to do it um but I I
41:30 - 42:00 think it it definitely helps people understand you and and you know people will find their levels to relate to you um at different levels to to kind of get the whole thing that sales confidence is brilliant and the word there is if you create a Persona that's not to you you're creating a pedestal that you're trying to now live up to and that that's a big that's like a confidence Gap right you've created your own confidence Gap that you didn't need to you're you're most confident being you because that's all you can ever be so so be it the more
42:00 - 42:30 you do this I think sometimes the harder it is to be confident and I think that's a a great thing again that that your networking your story brings to people um and Hopey other people can then learn from that of like the best the best version of you is you yeah I agree so we we we we're we we're motoring through this conversation and um you know I could spend hours here exploring um more more of your stories and experience just what what what do you do just to manage kind of you know your well-being and and
42:30 - 43:00 and health yeah it definitely gets hard as you become become a family man right but I think again it comes down to being committed to the tasks you need to do that day you know like there's there's all there's always time to do it's just what you choose to prioritize you know and and I find the time to make sure that I go to the gym three times a week because I know that helps me to be better at work it helps me to be a better dad it helps me to be a better husband like like all those things so I I kind of link it to the fact of like to
43:00 - 43:30 my whole self requires these elements and therefore I have to get them done so I think about them in a task State I also try to make sure that I block out time in my calendar to do the things that are really important um you know I want to make sure I'm home to put put flow to bed for example on certain times and therefore I can shift my my working very fortunate in the roles we work in that enable us to to do that um which is you know very very lucky but I think then it's also around how how you spend your week I think that's another part to like you know you have to take time out
43:30 - 44:00 when I talk about like working hard it's around like when you're on be on you know if you're going to go for a run go for a run you know like don't don't don't do 50% and I think that's the the trick to it for me is like when I'm going to do something I'm all in and that allows me to manage my time like that's my block for doing this and that's my block for doing this um great um P of water in the morning is a good tip like I got that from a friend of like before you do anything else drink a pint of water and it's amazing how that like makes you feel fresh for the day rather than than smash three coffees yeah definitely I'm I'm more of the water option than coffee um so final
44:00 - 44:30 question like obviously got to learn a huge amount about you today your perspectives your your experience um and I'm sure people would have got uh all this way in the conversation what would be your final parting thought or um you know comment for the listeners yeah good I think the the main takeway I took away from my career especially when I join normative like okay what am I going to do differently like here how can I learn from the things that I've learned from my past two
44:30 - 45:00 experiences and I think one of these is when you have a decision to make right there's an easier option there's a tougher option and the reality is the tougher option is normally the right one and I think that is something that I took into this role of like make those decisions earlier you that that can be anything it can be around like what ICP you go after like you know who you hire who you let go like but I think just in my head I now look and go okay what's the easy option and what's the what's the tough option because the tough option is the right one um and then it always sticks in my head around like
45:00 - 45:30 life is short so for those any stage in their career like money is a byproduct of being happy and being successful um and the one thing you can never do is re earn time that's it once you spent it it's a currency you can't get back so I always say like think about what you love doing and focus on doing those right because you can you can re earn the money you know um so there some of the p and and your network I bang on about it and it's not just because I'm on sales confidence if you listen to podcasts or advice I give the
45:30 - 46:00 feel it's like work your network work your network commit to it commit to doing favors for people because the world will then do you favors back and I think that's the best advice I could give to someone as make sure that you really really work your network great advice it's been a pleasure always so to see finally got here this been too long awesome um you've been listening to the sales confidence podcast check out saleson details on our membership and how to become part of the community cheers Neil