Wealth Manager of India's Billionaires | Groww Legends Ft. Manish Chokhani, Director, Enam Holdings

Summary

In the insightful discussion hosted by Thrive by Groww, Manish Chokhani, a distinguished director at Enam Holdings, shares his perspectives on the intricate dynamics of global and Indian markets. The conversation delves into the evolution of markets since the post-World War era, the challenges and opportunities faced by Indian markets, and the paradigm shifts in global economics. Additionally, Chokhani offers practical advice for investors navigating the ever-changing financial landscape, emphasizing the importance of adaptability, historical context, and strategic asset allocation.

Highlights

• Manish Chokhani discusses the shift from a long bull market to uncertain times ahead. 🔄
• Investing in equities needs a flexible approach due to evolving global financial dynamics. 🌐
• The historical shifts in markets since WWII impact today's investment landscape. 📉
• Tariffs and fiscal policies in the U.S. could lead to significant market shifts globally. 💰
• Chokhani advises on maintaining cash reserves and examining valuations carefully. 🔍
• India is poised for growth, but must overcome infrastructural and regulatory hurdles. 🇮🇳
• Adapting value investing approaches is crucial in today's rapidly changing markets. 📊
• AI and technology will play pivotal roles in shaping future economic landscapes. 🤖

Key Takeaways

• The long bull market in equities is giving way to new paradigms. Adapt your strategies! 🚀
• Cash is not a bad word. In uncertain times, it's okay to sit on cash and reassess. 💸
• Global markets have been shaped by major shifts since WWII, influencing current trends. 🌍
• India's growth has vast potential, but structural changes are needed to capitalize fully. 🔧
• Value investing isn't dead; it thrives by understanding market cycles. 📈

Overview

The conversation with Manish Chokhani reveals a deep dive into the financial market transitions occurring on a global scale. As the director of Enam Holdings, Chokhani elaborates on how the end of a 35-year bull market in equities signals a shift in investment strategies. New paradigms are emerging, prompting a rethink in how investors should approach asset management, particularly in equities, amidst changing rules and economic frameworks.

Addressing both historical and current market conditions, Chokhani analyzes how global economies have been influenced by significant events since World War II. The discussion highlights how these influences play a role in current and future market directions, emphasizing the importance of global interconnectedness in financial strategies. The insights draw attention to the need for investors to be aware of international trends that directly impact domestic markets.

Chokhani stresses the importance of understanding market cycles and the necessity of having flexible investment strategies. He suggests that now, more than ever, investors should not shy away from holding cash and should critically analyze market valuations. Keeping an eye on technological advancements, specifically AI, is also key as it presents both opportunities and challenges in this new economic era.

Chapters

• 00:00 - 00:30: Introduction to the Bull Market The chapter discusses the tail end of a significant bull market in equities that lasted for about 35 years post-1990. During this period, interest rates were consistently declining while equity prices and valuations increased, leading to wealth creation through equities. The speaker reflects on the late realization of this trend by the younger population, as well as the looming paradigm shift in the market rules. They suggest that this shift, disrupting the possibility of long-term investment strategies, should have occurred around the 2008-09 financial crisis.
• 00:30 - 01:00: Creating Cash and Thinking Differently The chapter emphasizes the importance of generating cash and adopting a fresh perspective on investment strategies. It suggests that the successful methods of the past four years may not be applicable in the future, as returns in the coming years will originate from different sources. The speaker bets on this change and warmly welcomes the audience to the inaugural edition of 'Grow Legends.'
• 01:00 - 02:00: Introduction of Manish Chokhani The chapter introduces Manish Chokhani, a prominent figure in the Indian financial sector. He started his career as the CEO of Inam Securities, which eventually became part of Access Capital following a merger with Access Bank. Under his leadership, Access Capital played a significant role in raising equity capital in Indian markets. Chokhani further expanded his influence by co-founding a multi-billion dollar Asset Management Company (AMC) and serving as chairman of TPG Growth India.
• 02:00 - 03:00: Manish Chokhani's Career Path and Achievements Manish Chokhani has had a distinguished career where he has advised global funds and served on the boards of prominent companies. Additionally, he has contributed to SEBI committees and serves on the governing board of Flame University. Besides his professional achievements, Chokhani is a trained vocalist, a Vipassana practitioner, and harbors a passion for philosophy, history, and investing.
• 03:00 - 04:00: Historical Economic Changes and Global Influence The chapter discusses the economic changes and global influences observed historically starting from September 2024. It presents two contrasting expert viewpoints regarding these changes, inviting the reader to consider which perspective is more appealing or if there might be an alternative perspective. The conversation touches upon various highs and lows experienced during this period.
• 04:00 - 05:00: Shifts in Global Economies Over Decades This chapter discusses the global economic shifts that have occurred since the Second World War. It explains how the United States took control of the world order post-war, establishing new rules and frameworks for trade, immigration, and financial transactions. These changes set the stage for how international economic relations operated in the ensuing decades.
• 05:00 - 06:00: Impact of Money Printing and US Financial Health The chapter discusses the history and impact of monetary policy, focusing on the transition from the gold standard to a currency system primarily pegged to the US dollar. It explains how this shift led to increased debt levels as people consumed beyond their means, eventually resulting in periodic economic bubbles. Each decade, these bubbles have impacted various markets globally, with the US dollar playing a central role in these economic phenomena.
• 06:00 - 07:00: Tariffs and Indian Market Resilience The chapter discusses the historical trends of bull markets, starting with the Nifty 50 in the US during the 1970s, consisting of companies like Polaroid, Xerox, and Disney. This bull market came to an end, leading to a shift towards hard assets such as oil, gold, and silver in the following decade. After the hard asset bull market waned, the focus shifted to emerging markets, notably Japan and Taiwan, which experienced significant growth, increasing 10 to 12 times during that period.
• 07:00 - 08:00: Uncertainty in Global Markets and Indian Economy The chapter explores the dynamics of global market trends, focusing particularly on the transitions and shifts in bull markets over the decades. Initially detailing the late stages of the bull market in the early 1990s concurrent with the Indian scam, it proceeds to describe the shift to technology subsectors in NASDAQ by the mid-90s. The narrative advances to the period from 2000 to 2010, highlighting the rise of the emerging market economies, commonly grouped under the acronym BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China), and the subsequent bullish trends witnessed in these markets.
• 08:00 - 09:00: Currency Realignment and Global Economic Shifts The chapter examines the economic shifts from 2010 to 2020, highlighting the unexpected continuation of a bull market in the US despite the COVID-19 pandemic and massive money printing. It contrasts this with traditional expectations of a shift towards emerging markets and hard assets. Instead, it discusses the rise of an AI bubble in the US market, dominated by what is referred to as the 'magnificent 7' stocks, leaving the majority of US stocks behind.
• 09:00 - 10:00: US Recession Indicators and Economic Outlook The chapter discusses economic indicators pointing towards a possible US recession. It highlights the extensive market influence the US holds globally, contributing around 70% to the world market. The excessive money printing by the US has led to deteriorating economic figures, notably a worsening current account and fiscal deficit, suggesting urgent reformative measures by the government.
• 10:00 - 11:00: Indian Market Valuations and Global Comparisons The chapter titled 'Indian Market Valuations and Global Comparisons' discusses India's strategic measures in response to global economic challenges. These include adjusting tariffs to influence domestic demand and alleviate producer pressure, reducing government expenditure to manage fiscal deficits, and dealing with international financial obligations such as funding wars in Ukraine and Israel and handling immigration. The chapter highlights the complexities and perceived absurdities in these approaches, pointing out the uncertainties they introduce into the economic landscape.
• 11:00 - 12:00: Advising Investors in Uncertain Times The chapter titled "Advising Investors in Uncertain Times" discusses the evolution of global markets, including Indian markets, since the first world war. A key topic is the current concern over tariffs, which is a significant point of discussion. The chapter poses a critical question about the resilience of Indian markets and whether the corrections observed are already accounted for. It prompts contemplation on whether deeper cuts in the Indian market are likely.
• 12:00 - 13:00: India's Missed Opportunities and Growth Barriers The chapter discusses India's economic landscape, focusing on missed opportunities and growth barriers. It highlights the adverse impact of tariffs on the Indian market, starting from September when high valuations led to a sell-off. As China emerged as a strong player, investments shifted towards emerging markets and hard assets like gold and silver. These shifts signify a new bull market due to these developments.
• 13:00 - 14:00: Impact of AI on Investing and Employment The chapter discusses the varying valuation trends in different market caps, particularly in mid and small caps which appear to be highly valued while large caps look reasonably valued. It touches upon the financial sector's valuation stability and the influence of foreign ownership on the market dynamics. Despite local perceptions of market size, the chapter highlights the relative scale of the $4 trillion market cap when compared globally to a $110 trillion market cap.
• 14:00 - 15:00: Understanding Asset Allocation in Inflationary Times The chapter discusses the complexities of asset allocation during times of inflation, with a specific focus on the behavior of foreign institutional investors (FIIs). It highlights that FIIs are not a homogeneous group and their decisions to sell are not necessarily based on the economic situation in India, which has been managing its economy well recently according to the Reserve Bank of India (RBI). The chapter also points out the relative independence of portfolio decisions in different markets, using the example of investments between India, Sri Lanka, and Bangladesh.
• 15:00 - 16:00: Philosophy and Mentorship in Investing The chapter discusses the intersection of philosophy and mentorship within the context of investing. It highlights how shifts in global economic policies, such as tariffs and changes in international trade dynamics, create uncertainty and affect long-term investment strategies. The narrative suggests that in periods of economic instability, investors and industrialists may become more risk-averse, opting to stay closer to their 'home base' rather than making significant long-term investments. The content might also touch on comparative tariff advantages across countries like India, Bangladesh, China, and Vietnam, influencing decision-making in setting up new factories or industrial ventures.
• 16:00 - 17:00: Manish Chokhani's Recommended Readings The chapter discusses the uncertainty in the global economy and its impact on investment strategies, suggesting that in times of uncertainty, higher risk premiums are typical, leading to lower price-to-earnings (P/E) multiples. The dialogue also touches on the challenges faced by investors such as pension funds and university endowments in making medium to long-term investments amidst unknown future scenarios, especially with changes in political leadership like the eventual end of Trump's presidency. The focus is on how these elements could affect the investment environment, particularly for Indian investors.
• 17:00 - 18:00: Final Thoughts on Good Investment Practices The chapter discusses the global economy's tendency to live beyond its means and the anticipated need for a currency realignment. The speaker highlights the United Kingdom as a prime example, noting its decline in several industries once vital to its economy. The North Sea oil reserves are depleted, manufacturing is dominated by foreign companies like the Tata Group, and the retail sector, once epitomized by stores like Marks & Spencer and Selfridges, is in decline. The chapter concludes with remarks on the diminishing strength of the UK's financial sector.

Wealth Manager of India's Billionaires | Groww Legends Ft. Manish Chokhani, Director, Enam Holdings Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 sadly we've come at the tail end of the glorious bull market in equities where post 1990 you got 35 years of oneway bull market Interest rates kept going down in the world and equities and equity multiples just kept going up At the tail end of that we have realized equities is a way to wealth creation and our young population is only now coming in When the paradigm changes you can't invest for the long term when there's a change in the rules of the game So it is that sort of period I feel where it should have happened already in 2008 9
• 00:30 - 01:00 if the world had woken up A don't be scared to create cash B think differently from what got you these you know returns in the last four years The returns in the next four five will be from somewhere else entirely And I my bet would be it would be once again ladies and gentlemen a very warm welcome to the very first edition of grow legends and like I've
• 01:00 - 01:30 been saying uh this is the conversation that uh you know we have been waiting for He of course is the director at Inam Holdings Private Limited He began his journey as CEO of Inam Securities which later merged with Access Bank to form Access Capital a firm that helped raise nearly 25% of all equity capital in the Indian markets He went on to co-und the multi-billion dollar in AMC and also served as chairman of TPG growth India
• 01:30 - 02:00 advising global funds along the way Now beyond markets he has served on the boards of leading companies He's contributed to SEBI committees and he is on the governing board of flame university as well He is also a trained vocalist and he is a vipasna practitioner He is equally passionate about philosophy history and investing And once again it's our true privilege to have him with us Can we have a round of applause please thank you Like I was
• 02:00 - 02:30 saying my first question is going to be a little bit filmy uh you know we've seen highs and lows starting September 2024 uh there are two points of view there is one pool of experts who say right and then there is another side which says right so I think I want to understand first that which song is appealing to you more or is there a third one good great question Radika so thank you everyone for being here
• 02:30 - 03:00 but I'm I'm in the camp of Yetto Hunah Okay If you want I'll give you a little long answer which will give a framework to think about it That post the second world war when the world made a new architecture the US took control of the world and they created a world where they set up rules by which the world operated So how you did trade how you did immigration how you remitted money from place A to place B was all set by
• 03:00 - 03:30 them uh and then by the time you came to the 70s you realize that this system on currency front is not working because they used to be pegged to the gold standard and that was found to be restrictive because people were consuming more than they could afford and therefore there was a debt bubble but they depe from gold standard and went that the peg will be to US dollar So from then US dollar became gold and every decade they caused a bubble to happen in some market or the other Some
• 03:30 - 04:00 people are very young here some maybe a little more elderly will remember So in the 70s you had the bull market in the US Nifty50 So Polaroid and Xerox and Disney and so on that bull market died and the next decade went to hard assets where the peak was made in oil gold silver Uh then that bull market died The next decade it went to the then emerging markets which was then Japan and Taiwan And those markets went up 10 to 12 times in that decade As that bull market died
• 04:00 - 04:30 and we came at the tail end of that in 1990 1991 when just when those markets were dying hersa was doing the Indian scam but by then the bull market had again shifted and by '90s you got the top of the technology sector in NASDAQ then b that bull market dies and in 2000 to 2010 you got the back to the emerging market the so-called bricks Brazil Russia India China and you got the whole bull story there and as expected that
• 04:30 - 05:00 bull market died and you went 2010 to 2020 went back to technology in the US and then COVID hit normally you would have expected the whole decade to come back to emerging markets and hard assets but because they printed unprecedented amount of money the bull market continued in US and you created this what I call the AI bubble and so on where magnificent 7 have taken that market and just held it whereas the rest of the 493 stocks in the US haven't
• 05:00 - 05:30 performed and US became 70% of the world So in any case that market was due for a blow up The other thing which happened in this period of so much money printing is US numbers have started looking terrible where the current account deficit the fiscal deficit looks even worse than India at its worst time So when I say any rational government would have come and I said I need to fix this current account the measures they are
• 05:30 - 06:00 taking are through tariff to either drop domestic demand or make the producers bear part of the pain on the fiscal side what they're doing with Elon Musk and doge is to cut government spending and get the fisk under control and the third thing which they're doing is we can't stop financing the world paying for the war in Ukraine war in Israel getting immigration inside So what they are trying to do is inevitable The way they are doing it is absolutely absurd So that's where the uncertainty now arises
• 06:00 - 06:30 from So long way to get to the point of what you were asking You've actually already given us a great summary of how global markets and with that you know the Indian markets linked to that have evolved uh since the first world war But you know you did refer to the tariffs and that is on everybody's mind right now right uh there was a view that Indian markets are resilient and you know some of the corrections we are seeing this is factored in uh do you think that is changing do you think we will see deeper cuts in the Indian
• 06:30 - 07:00 markets because of what's happening on the tariff yes the short answer is yes uh the Indian market from last September sold off on the back of high valuations and by then China had come back and like I said the smart money was already moving to emerging markets and hard assets so You saw the rise of China You saw the rise of gold silver other precious metals and so on is already happening The bull market which had started there and these developments are only going to strengthen that We came
• 07:00 - 07:30 off a extremely high valuation on mid and small caps in particular uh large cap still looked okay and like you know we've spoken earlier as well that the financials looked okay and you had reasonable valuation but like you get an excess on the way up in a period like this you can get an excess on the way down as well because remember foreigners still own 15% of the market and it's not a mainline market we I mean for us 4 trillion market cap is a large number but the world is at $ 110 trillion market cap so we are like three and a
• 07:30 - 08:00 half% of the world in that if they own 15% of India it's like for someone in Bombay selling his stock in Sri Lanka and Bangladesh it doesn't change his overall portfolio in his home market So there is a possibility and I don't know how people will behave and FIS are not just you know one group they are discrete bunch of people as well but I don't think you should rule out that FI selling can continue not for Indian reasons because India has been doing the right things in the last few months economically both from RBI as well as
• 08:00 - 08:30 from government but the way the flows are in the world we could be still in a patch of bother because he's created lot of uncertainty and it's a resetting of the rules of the game entirely Yes So in that period you don't really want to make long-term commitments Your risk appetite goes down You come closer to home base If you think as a industrialist also today even though I see this tariff happening and India's tariffs are better than Bangladesh and China and Vietnam am I likely to make a bet to put a factory today knowing that
• 08:30 - 09:00 Trump will be gone in four years and same way if an investor it's a pension fund or a university endowment how do they take a bet for four years 5 years that we don't know how the lay of the land will be So in a period of uncertainty you typically get what you call higher risk premiums which means lower P multiples I mean short answer is okay So you know again so many points that I could take off on but what does this really mean for the global economy and direct impact on the Indian investor many of whom are joining us today So
• 09:00 - 09:30 global economy has lived beyond its mean I I've been I think talking for 10 years that there will be a currency realignment in the world Just take the simplest example Take United Kingdom It was known for oil from North Sea which is over It was known for manufacturing which now Tata Group is the largest employer in UK So there's no manufacturing left They were known for retail When you went to London you went to Markx and Spencer and Selfridges which is now all deserted They were known for financial sector where they've
• 09:30 - 10:00 made all these so-called non-doms leave the UK The UK is basically now London real estate versus the rest of the country And London real estate was the Saudis the Russians and the Indians who were buying real estate Then they stopped the Russians from coming And now they don't want the Saudis and the Indians either And the pound stands at whatever 100 110 There's no way on earth it can stay there Current account deficit balance of payments fiscal deficit big mess
• 10:00 - 10:30 So in this decade you may see pound at 50 to the rupee Now are we ready for something like that so I said those kinds of paradigm shifts and you look you know go boggled when I say but you go back across decades it's happened to countries those who lived through say the 1998 Asian crisis currency stumbled and went down by 50% And this is what Trump is also trying to do He wants a realignment of currency with China as well Because
• 10:30 - 11:00 China is sitting on a trillion dollar surplus on trade How can the Chinese yuan be pegged to the dollar pretty much since 2006 the yuan has stayed pegged to the dollar And Indian rupee has collapsed and still our exports haven't gone up So it's not to do with our currency or our competitiveness We just don't have the product or the quality which the world wants So lot of changes are going to come is is all I'm saying Of course you know Trump has also spoken about and against the BRICS nations developing their own currency which was
• 11:00 - 11:30 on the cards Uh but is the US heading for a recession they they are planning for it He said that in his interview as well that there is a transition period and if you have consumed in excess of what your income levels are there's a stunning statistic that 65% of Americans live on a paycheck week to week 60% of Americans receive some form of check from the government It outwardly looks like a rich country but internally they have had no change in real income since
• 11:30 - 12:00 the 1980s 12% of Americans own 90% of the stock market That is the measure of wealth But the rest of America is not in good shape Like lot of people you would have had relatives remember when they would visit us in the 80s and '9s You're too young for that We would look at as if you know someone has some alien has come from outer space and they are so rich and we are so poor and now when they visit us it looks exactly the opposite They are seeing you driving around in nice cars nice homes you have staff over there and they are
• 12:00 - 12:30 like they en quick commerce as well So it's it's a it's a transition and I made the point about UK to say this mirrors the rest of the world I had friends I went to college with who are Japanese Uh there's someone who's head of a very major bank and he commutes to work in the context of going narrow point to Goreo in Japan Their standard of living in Japan has stagnated for 35 years Debt levels are very high but the currencies haven't reflected that as yet because the rules was set by the G7 and what
• 12:30 - 13:00 China Russia Saudi and actually even India which without seeing were trying to do was to get this realignment We can't give a currency license to China By the way the bricks currency was a reality But what China has already done is created a substitute for swift When you do your interbank transfers they've already signed up the whole of ASEAN Russia and Saudi and the UAE are all on board So if US switches off today there's trillions of dollars of money
• 13:00 - 13:30 flowing through the Chinese system and they work faster like you can do a money remittance using the Chinese system in basically seconds whereas my swift transfer through my bank takes 3 days So this architecture is being changed and whether they realize or not America is playing into the hands of China now Uh and everything is made in China So if they switch off and they put tariffs even if they want to put a factory it's going to take three four years for that factory to come up in US In the meantime what do they do yes So it's a period of
• 13:30 - 14:00 great change and I don't think we should approach investing as if it is the same as the last 30 years It's not because the US is trying to change So we can't assume that everything will be the way it was in the last 30 35 years So we are also seeing the China plus one right where I mean China plus one in theory was there for the last 10 years but now more so and it bypassed us and it went to Vietnam Bangladesh exports more garments and textiles than India Missed opportunity you would say Miss
• 14:00 - 14:30 absolutely because because of our internal problem that we don't have the last mile connectivity to the port the labor laws are not conducive the way your factory inspection happens like the average Indian industrialist deserves a padmashri for what he deals with it's it's really a hostile environment to to operate in uh and say in government factory you have three shifts in Bangladesh you're not allowed so there are things like that which we are causing self goals
• 14:30 - 15:00 uh and with this coming of AI and robotics and all in the next 10 years I really wonder how we lift people up So we'll see We'll talk about it Yeah I do want to talk about the role of AI in the future But I think one question on everybody's mind here is that with the current tariff scenario so much volatility what should an existing portfolio be going through what are the changes one should be making so number one in period of uncertainty when you say risk premium goes up it means multiples should be lower So if you're
• 15:00 - 15:30 sitting on these 50 60p stocks I think stop dreaming Uh just you've made your money take it and one sit on the side There's no harm in sitting on cash I've done it twice at least in my career just before the hersa scam We were 100% out of the market 2001 when Infosys gave their profit warning you know this is going to tumble going to take the market a bull market starts always somewhere else I'll cover that also and then 2007 in this madness of subprime and reliance
• 15:30 - 16:00 power IPO again completely out of the market uh so but every bull market gives you a rise in some other asset which is what the example I gave you from the 70s that one one thing died and something else comes up the odds are this bull market this time will be in hard assets and emerging markets an emerging market centered around the world which unfortunately China has created but they are impregnated inside Europe They are inside Asean they are inside Africa Unfortunately we are not as friendly But you see the geopolitical change which
• 16:00 - 16:30 has already happened with Xiinping saying that elephant and dragon should dance together because he needs a new market and he needs a new source also from which maybe he can export out So if these games are played smartly uh America end of the days it is 25% of the mark of the world but it is only 25% of the world So it's not the end of the world if they start acting funny and they've alienated everybody So a don't be scared to create cash b think differently from what got you
• 16:30 - 17:00 these you know returns in the last four years The returns in the next four five will be from somewhere else entirely And I my bet would be it would be lot of hard assets because it's hard to put up factories It's hard to get material out from the ground And with US causing this kind of inflation due to tariffs prices of things are going to go up a lot more than people realize And when currencies change you'll be surprised what happens Do we need to reframe what risk means in the current market
• 17:00 - 17:30 so sadly we've come at the tail end of the glorious bull market in equities where post 1990 you got 35 years of oneway bull market Interest rates kept going down in the world and equities and equity multiples just kept going up At the tail end of that we have realized equities is a way to wealth creation and our young population is only now coming in But when the paradigm changes you can't invest for the long term when how do I say there's there's a change in the
• 17:30 - 18:00 rules of the game So it is that sort of period I feel where it it should have happened already in 20089 if the world had woken up If you again go back when America started printing in 2008 Europeans followed everyone else followed India followed but China kept its currency steady against the dollar And you see what China broke out in the next 10 years and created all the capacities all the technology and went up the value chain We used to say back then that China can't compete in
• 18:00 - 18:30 software with with India for example But our largest software company will be in forces will be like less than 100 billion TCS will be like 150 160 Alibaba Tensson BU were 500 600 700 billion companies So the scale at which they created and innovated was unprecedented and they kept the yuan peg to the dollar more or less So the country became rich We went the other way We gave all the money printing to the narga program and missed opportunity to get
• 18:30 - 19:00 our manufacturing and everything sorted So when the last government came in 2014 we thought a lot of this will change Some of them have changed but still we've been held back by our own uh sort of shackles So let's see Okay Uh you know you were speaking about FIS earlier and uh after co in fact actually let me ask the question after co we saw a lot of young investors come into the markets You spoke about that They've not they
• 19:00 - 19:30 hadn't seen uh the markets uh go down the way they they did Uh do you think there needs to be a reframing of what profitability looks like yeah I mean a lot of me and my colleagues we've said this repeatedly that ultimately you make money which is equal to the profit of the company You can't be separated for very long The underlying profit and the return profile of Indian companies is around 15% On equity and the debt return like
• 19:30 - 20:00 if you were in a bank you would make 7% So when you you pay that extra risk premium to make that 15 that's the multiple which is why we pay a little bit more for that extra growth Otherwise you would pay the opposite of a interest multiple Let me do it in a simple way If you put 100 rupees in the bank and you get say 8% fixed deposit return 100 divide by 8 gives you 12.5 That's your base P
• 20:00 - 20:30 multiple But now there's no growth So if someone can give you 20 rupees for that 100 what is the multiple you would pay it won't it can't be the same as a 8% return So you'll start paying a higher P multiple for it And that's really the underlying basis So when you're paying 50 60 70 times for so many companies you're playing with fire It's like you bought an apartment and then you're renting it out at 2% Thinking that the apartment price is going to go
• 20:30 - 21:00 up It's it's not going to go up I gave this example last year I think in around Diwali time The most popular stock last year for example was Zomato great company doing great work everything great but I I gave the example in 2001 Infosys which was then the greatest company and still a great company had a market cap already at that time I think of $45 billion and 25 years have passed and it is now at $95 billion So it's become double but over 25 years
• 21:00 - 21:30 the index goes up typically at this 15% you'll go double in 5 years so four times in 10 years So in 20 years you should have been 16 times as opposed to two times and this is of course in dollar terms So because rupee fell you may feel I did little better and worse So using the same math for Zumato which was then 300 rupees I say if you want to make even four times on Zamato it has to become 120 billion market cap and on that at that time it'll be a fairly mature company like Infosys then was a
• 21:30 - 22:00 50p and now it's a 20p let's say we give benefit of the doubt and we give a 30p to Zamato 10 years later even which is generous so you would have taken a 120 billion potential market cap for what you want to just meet the index divide divide 120 by 30 and you'll get a $4 billion PAT And for context today TCS PAT is $6 billion So it's not that that number is going to come So you're playing with fire It's a great company Everything is fine But you're paying a wrong price But
• 22:00 - 22:30 valuations are tricky Valuation is tricky That's the crux of the matter that what are you paying and like I said over time if the business is going to make a 15% return and you're paying north of 20 multiple you really have to have a view that this business is going to keep growing and no trouble like Trump no trouble like war no trouble like COVID nothing has to come Perfect execution which never happens in India But what happens is that you know there are certain narratives that are built right and then one tends to follow those
• 22:30 - 23:00 narratives right so what is your advice to investors how do you sort of behave rationally when the narrative is somewhat irrational around valuation you said in the beginning I do vipas now One of the reasons is you stay economous that this two shall pass So a bull market is not permanent A bare market is not permanent Trump's tariffs are not permanent Trump is not permanent There's no reason to despair Uh it will pass And what happens in both times you get excesses And if you are evenminded
• 23:00 - 23:30 through this like I promised I'll tell you previous cycle we were selling in the Infosys period when we sold the tech stocks for example PSUs at that time were selling for dime a dozen I remember we were buying BL for 60 rupees and there was 80 rupees cash in the books in the balance sheet so you got opportunity like that concore BL SBI grassim they all eventually went up 15 20 times in the in the the bull
• 23:30 - 24:00 market which came 2002 to 2008 was the most spectacular bull market This time it's come in small caps but now when people are finding that they want to sell in some size if I want to sell 10 crores worth of a small cap I can't do it So it was a notional value in my portfolio not a real realizable value unless it transitions and become a large company like a Zomato may have started small and it's become a large cap but if you're holding something else you know I
• 24:00 - 24:30 don't know where where you'll end up and how you'll get your exit and are you comfortable holding it for the next five or 10 years okay so you know there has been talk about India becoming a $30 trillion economy say by 2050 but are there any blind spots that we should be watching out for in in the growth of I mean look it's not a given I mean 100 years ago Argentina was the richest country in the world and then they blew the opportunity So it's not a given We have the odds Our people are definitely smart They are gifted If we can go out in the world and
• 24:30 - 25:00 the top talent in Silicon Valley is all Indian It tells you that it's not the problem with the Indians It's the problem with the way India is running itself So even when this China plus one happens why has the whole trade gone to Bangladesh Vietnam Mexico it's it's a attitude problem over here and in that the entrepreneurs who come out who can navigate through this they become multi-billionaires they deserve to because that's the degree of difficulty and pain they are fighting with when I say they all deserve Padmma you're
• 25:00 - 25:30 dealing with some inspector can randomly turn up someone can you know stop your shipment someone is yelling some tariff is changing overnight some tax laws are changing you're dealing with that kind of uncertainty which is why in India Unlike what Buffett says abroad he says buy the business because eventually a monkey will run it In India you have to buy like what Utal has defined valuations You buy the gorilla over here because he will redefine the jungle And in those businesses where people have become
• 25:30 - 26:00 sector leaders those valuations are very hard for others to come and compete You even take the current uh very live example in this market Asian paints has been the leader in paints and it's taken the combined onslaught of BLA and Jindel to come and say we want to move these people out The market has priced it but it's not yet happened in the marketplace Then they announced uh you you saw money being made in for example wire and cables with polycab and k and he and so on and again people look at a market
• 26:00 - 26:30 opportunity and say we want to launch over here market will always price the worst because you because you were sitting on a 60 70p you got scared if it was a 15p we'll say they cling we'll fight in the market do you feel that value investing has changed uh you're still asking me this You saw what happened Who's looking the smartest in the world warren Buffett Yeah Sitting on 330 billion dollars of
• 26:30 - 27:00 cash What does it tell you for the last 6 months the man is signaling to you something is wrong Get out Keep cash He can't say it I can't come on TV and say get out I'm on the Diwali We are all on TV and telling you valuations are wrong I'm giving you Zamato example I'm giving you Infosys example Or it's your money Please do what you want with it But your money is hard earned You're being as direct as it gets No but you on a public platform you cannot come and be preaching bad news Nobody likes a bear over here Everyone wants to hear Rakkesh
• 27:00 - 27:30 only like everything is bullish Everything is great Definitely India will become a large economy All odds are in our favor But there are risks We are not creating jobs AI is coming Robotics is coming We have to go up the value chain It's not a given that will happen But the flip is the entrepreneurs are great The youngsters who are coming up despite what the minister had to say It's not that everyone's only going to do home delivery There are people doing drones they're doing space they're doing there is stuff coming and money is available and it sometime takes time to
• 27:30 - 28:00 show Someone put out a nice tweet also He said before Elon Musk made Tesla he made PayPal So he didn't directly come to SpaceX He also had to go through a process which we will also do So I'm still very hopeful on our country and like I said by and large our entrepreneurs because we deal with so much mess We've defeated all the multinationals over the years If you take the FMCG businesses we used to say no one can beat Lever and then you saw Godidge and Dhar and Marico and all have come and done
• 28:00 - 28:30 well Hi Ram gets $10 billion valuation So who cares about LE we we like Haldi Ram in India and that'll do well Same thing in pharma The largest pharma company today is Sunfarma or Sipla or Lupin or whoever Same thing happened in banking All the banks and the city banks are all gone and it's HDFC and ICS So sector after sector entrepreneurs have shown they know how to run it We know how to produce a return and the degree of difficulty in a country is the margin you make because we're a difficult
• 28:30 - 29:00 country We make this kind of return We've been a great market There's no reason why if you do four times in 10 years as a average for the index you take 20 years more from here when they say vixel bhat 20 times from here you can imagine 4 trillion market cap of today going up 20 times is 80 trillion I didn't even say that I said we'll get to say a 25 30 trillion GDP and we'll be at one and a half times the 50 trillion market cap means you still have 90% of wealth of India lies ahead of it it's
• 29:00 - 29:30 not in the rear view but I can't say say that about Japan I can't say that about Europe I can't actually even say that about China now while they're doing the most innovation But the population is now declining over there And the returns on investment in their markets have been fairly No So they think about it as a nationalistic goal So when we visit companies there you find there'll be 110,000 people in the R&D team You try stuff and let's see what comes out The
• 29:30 - 30:00 gross margins they make in China For example if you take BYD which now leads the world you would expect the gross margins to be much higher Then you are very surprised when you go in and then you see the conversion from gross margin down to profit level AIDA or PBT is even lower because they have filled up people to do new R&D So that 7 8% R&D cost which we used to see in in the US earlier in pharma and and tech is now being seen in China and they're not so focused on producing a return because
• 30:00 - 30:30 for them it's about employment generation and about how do you say making their country USA proof So it it's not the greatest equity market but some of the companies out there are just outstanding Yeah So you know I want to go back to the last answer you gave and you know there is a view that in India a lot of investors actually put in a lot of effort research into the buy side right what they're going to buy why are we not able to take the right sell decisions and you know there was a clip
• 30:30 - 31:00 playing earlier of yours where you had commented that you know for greed so I just want to understand you know if you can educate us on that front when do we take those calls So uh there are two things I usually say to that Number one is that we are buying stocks bottom up Uh and you have to buy like I always say think of a stock will it be a 5p in 5 years that makes you focus your mind like my son is now investing actively So
• 31:00 - 31:30 he say if you have to think it's 5 PE in 5 years that means you need to have a view on what the earnings will be and you need to have a view on how the perception of this business will be because that's our advantage against a fund manager who's playing for every quarter because the narrative of today will be very different in 5 years So is that going to be sustainable and why I said 5p because if I get my bet wrong maybe he'll go to a 15 multiple which is three times if it's a because we we' not buy stupid companies So by and large be
• 31:30 - 32:00 a good company So you'll make a 15 multiple and if you're lucky you'll make a 25 Occasionally you get markets like this or like 2001 where people go to 50 60 multiples and then you just keep riding till you see a crack in the market So the first answer is really that that buy so cheap because that's the only thing that is in your control the day you buy and then next is the day you sell everything in between is based on what happens in parliament what happens in USA what happens in China nothing is in your control so if you're
• 32:00 - 32:30 buying is right and second is you you you get signals from market cycles which I'm a great student of and I'll encourage people to read like Mark Fabber had put out a beautiful cycle of emerging markets which I learned when I was very young and it just holds true till this day and the cycles I gave you about this alternating of financial assets to hard assets every decade has been has worked out magically across 50 years So there are things like that but eventually it becomes a valuation thing
• 32:30 - 33:00 that in your head if you see if the stock falls 33% Am I going to be a buyer or am I then waiting for it to come up 50% just to come back to this price and it'll actually give you the answer you're holding it in hope That's why when it falls you're clueless that now what do I do because the basis of your holding it was a momentum trade And my mentor Walabay's elder brother Manai taught me very well that when when a stock crosses a fundamental threshold one of my more
• 33:00 - 33:30 worst sell in life which I've also spoken about uh was Z which I made 10x 12x and then I sold it and in 3 months it went up 20 times in 3 months in ketan parak era because either fundamentally the stock doesn't deserve to be worth more than this So you feel like a genius if you made 10 12 times in 2 years but the market was in complete madness and there was operator or whatever and he said when you're selling it fundamentally now sell it to your
• 33:30 - 34:00 technical portfolio and watch what is the market telling you and if you see what he called a rising top rising bottom pattern You keep riding it and when that turns and it breaks then just sell it Then don't try to justify the fundamentals then just sell it because you'll still get an average which is better than what it was if you had just sold it fundamentally So sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't but that's that's a scar I carry till my day I don't know if it was a good thing that I
• 34:00 - 34:30 made 10x or it was a terrible thing I lost the just to give in context if you made uh if you put let's just say 10 lakhs and it becomes 1 cr in 3 months it could have become 20 crores just to give a context that is a quandry we are all in right all the time um but you know I do want to talk to you about the many many market cycles that you've seen and you've referred to you know some uh some of those uh what are some of the traits
• 34:30 - 35:00 if I may ask of the successful investors in those cycles what can we learn from those investors so a great question so two three things I've always said this that a good investor is always only making a asymmetrical bet like you can't imagine but that means upside should be unlimited downside you should you cannot lose money like Buffett's rule number one don't lose
• 35:00 - 35:30 money rule number two don't forget rule number one because only buying right at a price which is a distress price is really what a value investor's job is because like I said after that day nothing is in your control so number one is you've bought at a odds which are very very skewed in your favor number two when they get odds like that we don't go around buying 50 stocks and 60 stocks with 2% allocation they are position sizing thing is you really load up on that then but that's why your
• 35:30 - 36:00 study of that company and the conviction on that has to be large and three then they have the patience to digest profits like I gave you this money by example that I would be 10 times now I'm nervous because I may not feel deserving of that money or I don't know how to value it but they also are students of the market let let it run like in our markets the most famous example has been of legendary Rakkesh's buy in Titan now imagine if he had bought Titan and then he had bought 2% as opposed to you about
• 36:00 - 36:30 bought 6% of the whole company and then to digest that gain when it keeps going up up up and you live through 2008 crash and you could say this is my best position and I can get out but you can see what will happen to consumption and India and Tata and it's not an absurd valuation actually you go back and look it never really went to absurd then it went absurd later to digest that profit and sit on it that's the stuff of legends
• 36:30 - 37:00 So AI is something you refer to How is it changing investing in India as we speak i think AI will change It's a like a industrial revolution moment Pre the industrial age the artisans made goods and they extracted a premium from the aristocracy Then the machines came and the artisans all moved out and became factory labors I think that's the AI moment for the average middle layer employee is that and it worries us a lot
• 37:00 - 37:30 about what happens to Indian IT sector Indian GCC's which are today flavor of the year the entire middle layer for example we have lot of investments in banks which is the first beneficiary of AI because who is going to win in AI if you have structured data first of all you need data on which the AI can then give you actions or decisions or you can use your agents but once I have data for example your credit history or your transaction history and so I know how you behave your life cycle everything you become in
• 37:30 - 38:00 a cohort do you really think you need 20,000 officers then to be sitting and doing that analysis so the tech productivity gains is mindboggling it happened for in the industry we were in fact grow if you think when internet came would you have imagined that there would be a company called grow or zerodha would be the beneficiary of that Like we started distributing research to clients all over the world at a fraction of the cost We became accessible to clients all over
• 38:00 - 38:30 the world which is why when you said NM could do 25% of all money raised We were competing with Goldman Sachs and Mary Lynch and Morgan Stanley and beating them because we know this market The client knows we know the market and they're going to trade with us And the same thing is going to happen in financial services in capital market businesses Why would you put money in a fidelity fund when you can get HDFC or ICIC which knows the market much better over here and we can use that data uh and if you can use that data along with what I still think the individual
• 38:30 - 39:00 power of intuition and empathy cannot happen with data like when I said the next cycle the AI will be trained to know that this cycle is going to come come somewhere but where it's going to come whether it's intuition or whether it's that networking knowledge because the computer doesn't go out and talk to the entrepreneur eventually it's still the human being going out and so I think those things will still give you the edge and people who use it smartly will become disproportionately large and there are people in India already doing
• 39:00 - 39:30 that work so you know every bull run uh has a theme right we've seen it in the past so AI I believe would be one of the big themes AI is last five years theme okay so what's next then was my question what's next internet was we knew move internet will be big in 2001 but the NASDAQ did not come back till 2012 infosys peaked in 2001 it didn't come back till 2012 to that same price so like what you've seen with Nvidia we
• 39:30 - 40:00 saw with Cisco uh in 2001 Cisco was the one building the internet and today do you discuss Cisco is like some yesterday's company so the beneficiaries of AI are the people who will use the AI and like the Microsoft CEO came out and said we don't know why we spent $600 billion on capeex on AI We don't know the use case You can't be building images on Twitter and you know doing queries to improve your Google search uh you know using chat GPD So the use cases will come They will become deeply embedded inside companies
• 40:00 - 40:30 I still think structured data exists in financial services It exists in healthcare So we will be beneficiaries of that beyond what people can't imagine But before that boom happens the next 5 10 years like I said will belong to hard assets Because when the world gets so disrupted and goods cannot move freely from country to country the assets then become stranded and the assets which are then in your home country are more valuable Like take the example today if
• 40:30 - 41:00 we did not have you know safeguard duties on steel China makes a billion tons of steel They would have dumped everything into India and Indian steel industry will be finished Indian government sees that they put a safeguard duty and you see a bull market in JSW and Tata steel If these rules were not there the steel industry would be finished in India and not just that industry after we would not have had an auto industry We wouldn't have had a materials industry
• 41:00 - 41:30 maybe the cement industry also there's so much excess capacity in China and Indonesia So these inefficiencies eventually give a rise to profit opportunities for people So uh to put up a new factory now if everyone wants factories and strategic autonomy in their own countries like we want to make our own planes and our own armaments our own infrastructure has to be made our own manufacturing whole setup has to get lifted up semiconductors we still have to do So the opportunities are there still in
• 41:30 - 42:00 India to make that level of money U so I think my next question I think you've hinted at the answer in a bit but if we could filter it so if you were building a long-term portfolio today to manage both deflationary and inflationary uh environments what kind of asset allocation I correct you you cannot manage your portfolio for both then it's the traditional 60/40 portfolio that 40 is debt 60 is equity I don't know that's a person who's not active safety means you don't make a return then you can say
• 42:00 - 42:30 I'll put it in FD and I'm safe You will never lose but you'll never make Also the environment today is clearly inflationary When there's inflation the price of goods go up It has been inflationary We have been stupid that we've allowed rupee to keep slipping and the dollar strengthens after they are printing money And our currency is going down You buy a cup of coffee in US a $2 Starbucks coffee is now $8 That's the level of inflation in US But the rupee
• 42:30 - 43:00 has gone from 40 to 90 That means for us the example I use here is we used to sell motorcycles for what 40,000 rupees in 2006 And now if you get it for one lakh you're thinking it's a cheap bike and your purchasing power is finished That's why we say but India has no market India is not buying enough motorbikes They're not buying enough cars Well we finished our market and then we put high taxes on them So we've shrunken it So if these paradigms change
• 43:00 - 43:30 then the odds will change So in a inflationary environment you want to buy assets and products whose prices can go up and it doesn't give you a demand shock That's how typically Buffett made his money in the pre-80s era He was buying brands because they could do price increases and sell it I don't think the FMCG brands are you know the ones here But say today you go and you fly on an airline What were you paying for it 5 years ago what are you paying for it today now airlines is typically the worst industry because a new guy comes he can put the ticket price down he wants capacity and he can kill you
• 43:30 - 44:00 but there are periods in time when the amount of money you make uh can be enormous over here like oil prices could be down for example that's the moment for airline stocks to be doing well so I'm saying you don't think as a investor we are not like an industrialist that I have to be sitting for 20 I have to have a view for five or 10 years but when the market gives me that valuation I can encaps The industrialist cannot get out That's why what walab told me in the beginning of my life was you can take the boom of various industries Like
• 44:00 - 44:30 we've compounded we did one lakh times of our capital in 35 years The market may be up from whatever thousand to 80 It's 80 times you can do fantastic compounding over here because you can ride you know different different cycles I want to talk a little bit about philosophy right uh an area of interest for you How important is having a mentor you've had some very important mentors You've spoken about them How did they shape how you thought about investing so
• 44:30 - 45:00 great question Like one of the reasons we built Flame University was for that to give you like a allrounded view of the world I don't think if you're an investor and you only know finance or accounts you're going to do well You must be at a stage able to even judge the entrepreneur judge your team members motivate them uh you must have a knowledge of cycles and history and how things rhyme They may not repeat but they always rhyme Uh and what is the
• 45:00 - 45:30 evolution of human society are we only here to make money and get rich powerful famous or is there a bigger reason why we are here what are those lessons so if if you can get all that together this becomes like a game which you're playing because you're skillful at this game The way a surgeon may be playing cricket uh investor may be playing a game of investing is no longer about the zeros but uh am I doing something and in a way you're contributing to the growth of the economy because you're shifting resources in favor of someone doing
• 45:30 - 46:00 something good if that framework you get now it it's also your receptivity that I may mentor someone and tell him the same thing Walab told me but that guy may not receive it in that manner walab may well have told the same thing to 10 other kids I was the kid who was lucky who received that message and I benefited from what he told me But he told me a very nice thing I had so I came from a family My dad had a you know packaging company and my whole training in life was to go and become an industrialist
• 46:00 - 46:30 and become the biggest guy in packaging or whatever and we we were squeezed Our customers were Hindustan lever and Nestle in those days was called food specialities I like dad we are going nowhere These guys are going to squeeze squeeze squeeze and we'll never make money He said yeah don't like it we'll sell the business do what you enjoy and that's when I met Walabay through mani and he said son uh you come from a business family what are you basically doing you're looking at an opportunity then you're building a management team to exploit that
• 46:30 - 47:00 opportunity and then you'll have ownership of the profit of that opportunity but you don't easily have exit remember this is 1990 you could not buy and sell company so easily but if you bring that same mindset of looking at opportunity and then you choose management teams which come to you readymade and you'll find the best management team whereas you may not have been able to build that management team and then how much share of that profit you want you can buy that much of the
• 47:00 - 47:30 company but the trade-off in your mind is now I don't have control but I have exit if this makes sense to you come here you can take the boom of every industry why are you limiting to one industry and it made so much sense I said can I start this evening and we had no terms I just carried his bag for 20 years We had no terms All I said is will I get that chair one day he said if you don't want this chair don't come here As opposed to if you went to an industrialist and were you know a job seeker he said don't ever imagine looking for this
• 47:30 - 48:00 job So that's the difference of like when you're in a startup world this is the new India which the kids don't want to go and do a job They want to build something that their parents like we grew up where you know our dad got their home or their car at the end of their life Today the kid comes out of college and he has a home and a car whether with the parents or there's a mortgage available or whatever So the the ability to take risk and therefore make impact is so much greater and therefore when I
• 48:00 - 48:30 spoke to my son I said till 30 you try and fail in something very big don't do choo to come because that experience after 30 you'll be scared of my image and my ego and what will the world think of me till 30 nobody cares what you do after that you've got the experience you know whether you've succeeded and you're playing big or not and it it worked for him as well so just having I think framework uh is is very useful and reading Yes Actually I I was going to
• 48:30 - 49:00 ask uh you know if you have any recommendations for us carry a list Shall I read out please i'll give you the most popular question Let me I'll give you actually a sampling It may be overkill So bear with me I'm I'm grateful you asked That may be the only useful thing of the day I very much doubt that So uh uh it's in no particular order I wrote it in this way because that's how
• 49:00 - 49:30 I think now at my age So the first lot is about uh actually scriptures Uh so uh I've read all the upnishads the gita the dhapada actually I enjoyed because he doesn't prescribe vinob's gita I really enjoy because it was a extemper talk which he gave in jail while the freedom fighters were there You could just feel electricity Read our epics There is some thing to learn about human dynamics in our epic So that was category one It may
• 49:30 - 50:00 not be the most obvious thing you would have expected to hear Uh I read a lot of world history uh and on YouTube but three four history books worth absorbing uh one of course the great sapiens uh of how mankind evolved uh I read very early in life why the west rules for now uh and now I read books on China and then lieuan third world to first uh there's a fantastic book and also available on YouTube called guns
• 50:00 - 50:30 germs and steel uh on how the west went and took over the world 90 people took over the whole of South America the way 70,000 people took over India And in that context the great books of Dal Rimple the anarchy if you read how the East India Company took over India or his new one the golden road Sanjiv Saniel has a good set of books a land of seven rivers and so many more you once you like it you go ahead I read
• 50:30 - 51:00 Cortellia to understand what Amita is up to and Modi Makavei but it's it's interesting you get some perspective uh for mental models uh Farnam publishes good books on the different mental models which I was very influenced early in life by Charlie Mer that you must know the mental models and constructs of different fields basics of physics or basics of mathematics or basic accounting psychology and so on uh and to keep a breast with what's coming up I have a friendship and I read up a
• 51:00 - 51:30 lot with Peter Dimenes who does singularity so he his first book was called abundance it may you read that as an introductory and then build from there psychology again it's a Charlie Manga recommendation book by Robert Seldani called influence was fantastic book uh business school I went my professor John Hunt he had fantastic how do you manage people at work uh I used to read a lot of uh Edward Dono uh in lot of our meetings we
• 51:30 - 52:00 would run the six hats and so on uh Simon Synk start with why start with yeah then world harish on how you scale scale up a business because see if you're talking to an entrepreneur and a businessman you need to know management as well See I was lucky I was also a manager I was not only an investor because we were running a business by those principles of Jim Collins actually fantastic books built to last good to great and so on Uh and in finance you'll
• 52:00 - 52:30 know these typical names So I started early with John Tra So all the money masters of our time and so on Mangar and Buffett was like you know Bhagwan Milgabi we can understand something Peter Lynch Mark Faber who taught me about uh market cycles Uh I currently read a lot of Mabusen Uh uh for every investor they should read first the psychology of money of Morgan Hel I think everyone needs it Howard Marx again who's continuing this whole theory on cycles
• 52:30 - 53:00 Ray Dalio tries to you know again get that in your head Richard Sharma is a friend and I enjoy reading his work as well Uh management books I told you Jim Collins Michael Porter I grew up on Tools of Titans is a great book for someone who likes to read Tim Ferris I told you about Warren Harish and when I was young I read Gita Pyramal's books on India's industrialists business marajas to just get our history in context the you know how bidders or Tatas or Walchand and codridges they all built it up uh and for younger kids I have uh
• 53:00 - 53:30 really recommended this Vishal Khandel's book the sketchbook of wisdom very he's he's I kind of put everything together in one one page so even if you're like I've given it to maybe hundreds of kids who are in their teens So they can learn on psychology and history and investing and management and everything Very well compiled book How fascinating I think we should have a round of applause just for that because we have a year's worth of reading Absolutely Yeah 20 years of
• 53:30 - 54:00 reading in this because not just reading you must write your notes also alongside the book so that when you go back and read it it's like you read it every time when you turn you find something new some new nuance which you didn't you know what you just said about I think is the difference between a great investor and the rest of us right lucky right place right time okay my final question to you sir would be if you had to pass on just one piece of market advice to your son to your prodigy Okay
• 54:00 - 54:30 what would that be actually the same if as a well first is you be a good person good things happen to good people uh and be humble and share what you have because we've come to the world I really believe like you've come as a wire through which some electricity passes and you have some special skill which vovaji calls your swadha so you know if suchin had played chess he would have been lousy if I had played cricket I would have been lousy so you come for something which you're good at then do
• 54:30 - 55:00 that to the best of your ability and then share Uh actually that's the essence If you find that early in life you're really blessed and you're really lucky Like Michael Gladwell he called this that 10,000 hours of practice will make you better at what you're good at A lot of people just rely on natural talent and then like a bull market will make you feel there's no one smarter than me But this whole study of market cycles even astrologers I talked to like sard sati you can be the smartest guy and if
• 55:00 - 55:30 your sad sati is opposite you'll be making losses so it humbles you there is a bigger universe out there and we are tiny fraction so just keep perspective in life and be large-hearted that's such a beautiful thought that's a beautiful thought thank you for sharing Investment in securities market are subject to market risks Read all the related documents carefully before
• 55:30 - 56:00 investing Please read the risk disclosure documents carefully before investing in equity shares derivatives mutual fund and all other instruments traded on the stock exchanges