What are some of the key issues facing Australia? - World Questions podcast, BBC World Service

Summary

Highlights

• The housing crisis is a major concern, with affordability clashing with environmental concerns. 🏠
• Rural healthcare in Australia is lacking, with too many residents unable to access necessary medical services. 💉
• The Indigenous voice referendum failed, highlighting a divide in Australia's handling of First Nations issues. 📢
• International education is vital for Australia's economy, but policy inconsistencies challenge its growth. 📈
• Australia faces complex challenges needing integrated policy solutions across different sectors. 🌐

Key Takeaways

• Australia juggles a housing crisis that pits affordability against environmental protection. 🌏
• There's an urgent need to improve healthcare in rural areas to provide equitable services. 🚑
• The recent failure of the Indigenous voice referendum has set back Australian race relations. 🍃
• International students are crucial for Australia's economy, yet they spark debates on migration and education policies. 🎓
• Addressing Australia's key issues requires a multi-faceted approach, integrating social, environmental, and economic considerations. 🔄

Overview

Chapters

• 00:00 - 00:30: Introduction This chapter introduces the program 'World Questions' hosted by Jonny Dymond on the BBC World Service. The focus is on Australia, often referred to as the 'lucky country,' which is now confronted with significant challenges. These challenges include issues related to housing, migration, crime, and the future outlook for coming generations. The chapter sets the stage for a discussion by indicating that there are numerous questions from various parts of Australia that will be addressed by a panel.
• 00:30 - 01:30: Panel Introduction The chapter introduces key political figures in Australian politics who are part of a panel discussion. The panel includes Katy Gallagher, the Minister for Finance from the Labor government; John Pesutto, a politician from the opposition Liberal Party and former head of opposition in Victoria; and Senator Sarah Hanson-Young from the Australian Greens, who has been in office since 2008. Alexandra Smith is also mentioned as joining the panel. Each member provides a brief greeting.
• 01:30 - 09:00: Question 1: Housing and Environment Trade-off The chapter discusses the urgent need for more housing in Australia while balancing environmental concerns. It features a question from Madeleine in Adelaide, highlighting the dilemma between developing more land for housing and preserving the climate and environment. The dialogue is set in a political context with input from a state political editor from the Sydney Morning Herald.
• 09:00 - 18:00: Question 2: First Nations People The chapter addresses the problem of housing affordability in Australia, emphasizing the conflict between the need for more housing and environmental concerns. The discussion highlights the rapid increase in housing prices compared to average salaries, referencing data from 2022 where house prices were five times the average salary, escalating to nine times by the present context. In response, the government is collaborating with federal states to construct 1.2 million new homes over a five-year period to address the housing crisis.
• 18:00 - 27:00: Question 3: Healthcare in Rural Areas This chapter discusses the issue of balancing environmental concerns with the urgent need for new housing in rural areas. Senator Sarah Hanson-Young addresses the question and acknowledges the challenges faced, particularly in terms of meeting housing targets. The dialogue highlights the tension between development needs and environmental protection, pointing out that house building is currently at a decade low, thereby emphasizing the importance of addressing these competing priorities effectively.
• 27:00 - 35:30: Question 4: International Education The chapter discusses the concept of trade-offs in relation to the environment, jobs, and business, particularly focusing on housing. It suggests that while housing is often viewed as a trade-off with the environment, it doesn't have to be that way. There are opportunities to build new homes in suburban and already developed areas, catering to modern needs.
• 35:30 - 36:30: Conclusion The chapter discusses the drawbacks of expanding cities into outer suburbs without providing necessary services. It highlights that such expansions often lack public transport, schools, and health access. It emphasizes the need to retrofit existing infrastructure and housing instead of continuous outward expansion.

What are some of the key issues facing Australia? - World Questions podcast, BBC World Service Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 This is the BBC World Service. I'm Jonny Dymond and this is World Questions. Australia, the lucky country for so many decades, now facing hard challenges on housing, migration, crime and what the future holds for generations to come, we've got questions from across Australia for our panel to discuss. Lots of questions. Let's get some answers and let me introduce our panel.
• 00:30 - 01:00 Katy Gallagher is the Minister for Finance in the Labor government. Katy, hello. Thanks very much for having me on. John Pesutto is a politician with the opposition Liberal Party. Until very recently, he was head of the opposition in the state of Victoria. Welcome to you, John. Great to be here, Johnny. Senator Sarah Hanson-Young has been a senator for South Australia since 2008. She represents the Australian Greens. Hello, Sarah. Wonderful to be here. Thank you. And we're joined by Alexandra Smith,
• 01:00 - 01:30 state political editor with the Sydney Morning Herald newspaper. Alexandra, hello. Hello. Great to be with you. Well, it's a fabulous line-Up. Let's go straight to our first question. It comes from Madeleine from Adelaide in southern Australia. Hi, Madeleine. Hello, Johnny. My question is, we urgently require more housing, but the climate and the environment mean we should not be developing any more land. How do we resolve this problem? Thank you.
• 01:30 - 02:00 Madeleine, how do we resolve the problem of needing more housing up against the needs of the environment? One of the biggest issues in Australia right now. Housing is getting priced out of too many people's pockets. One example just a few years ago, 2022, the average house price was five times average salary. It's now nine times average salary. The Labour government, alongside the federal states, has agreed to try and build 1.2 million new homes over the next five years.
• 02:00 - 02:30 But it is well behind target already on house building, which is at its lowest for a decade. Can we get our first answer from Senator Sarah Hanson-Young? That trade off between the environment and the desperate need for new housing? Sarah. Well, thanks Madeleine and hello to a fellow South Australian. Wonderful to see you here. And look, I think this is a really good question. Um, lots of people will try and, um, make you believe that,
• 02:30 - 03:00 uh, the environment is a trade off for everything. A trade off for jobs, a trade off for business. And this, you know, the housing debate ends up being seen as a trade off for housing. But it doesn't have to be like that. Actually, there's plenty of places where, um, we could be building new homes and new houses in our suburbs and already built up areas where we could be making homes that, cater for the modern world.
• 03:00 - 03:30 The idea that we just have to keep cutting down and further and pushing out further and further to the outer suburbs is actually not what's needed. And in fact, when governments end up just doing that as the easy option, you find communities are left without the services. They don't have the public transport systems, they don't have the schools, they don't have the health access. So actually, we need to be looking at how we can be retrofitting existing housing stock, retrofitting existing infrastructure,
• 03:30 - 04:00 and making sure that we build houses in the right places, not just where it might be commercially, um, uh, cost effective. Cheaper isn't always best. Thank you very much indeed. John Pesutto from the opposition Liberal Party. Housing is right up there at the top of the agenda, isn't it? The political agenda? The trade offs are tough. Do you think that they are being handled correctly? Certainly not in the case of my state, and I don't think there needs to be a choice.
• 04:00 - 04:30 I'd agree with Senator Hanson-Young. That doesn't have to be a trade off between the environment and housing in any kind of scenario. I think the key point I'd like to make, though, is that governments are not responding to patterns of population and transport growth around the country. So in in the case of Victoria, and I know this is echoed around the country, there is enormous population growth, probably three or four times the rate of population growth in what I'd call the outer suburban growth corridors. So if you are a young family and you want to buy
• 04:30 - 05:00 a two or three bedroom apartment or more, you will not be able to afford it on the median income you will need to spend. In Australian terms, well over $1 million, probably closer to $1.5 million to buy a two, particularly a three bedroom apartment. So if you are looking to buy a home where you can house your family with young kids in a city, settings as much as you might like them are going to be beyond your reach. So what's happening in Victoria? Certainly.
• 05:00 - 05:30 And as I said, it's echoed around the country, is that people are looking for places they can afford in ways where they can exercise their choice. Many people want to live in apartment style living, and that's great. Many people, though, want stand alone, detached homes as well, and I think governments have an obligation to deliver on both. Thank you very much indeed. Alexandra Smith from the Sydney Morning Herald. I think one thing we really have to focus on in Australia and whether that's in a city like Sydney, where I'm from or Melbourne, Adelaide is I think we really have to have a cultural change as well.
• 05:30 - 06:00 I think Australia is built on the, you know, the ownership of homes. You know, the great Australian dream is living on a half acre block with a big backyard where we play cricket out the back. We have to change how we live, and we have to get away from this attitude that unless you live in a house with a family, then you're not doing the right thing by your family. You know, here in Sydney and I know it's the same in in Victoria and Melbourne.
• 06:00 - 06:30 We're looking the governments are looking at higher density living, but we have to convince people that it's okay for families with young children. I have young children and live in an apartment, that it's okay to live like that, but that will mean a change of how we think about the ways we can live. Thank you very much. Katy Gallagher, Minister of Finance, is this is this the biggest challenge that your government faces? Look, it's certainly one of the top issues. I think, um, if you were talking to constituents or issues that come up all the time. Housing.
• 06:30 - 07:00 Housing affordability, access to different types of housing is certainly right up there in, you know, the top three of issues, I would say. Um, I think the environment and how you manage that interplay between urban development and environment protection. Um, is one of the issues, but it's not the only issue. I think it's a long term. Um, in some ways people will say a decade of build up of a problem in terms of lack of supply, lack of training, the workforce.
• 07:00 - 07:30 We need to build the housing we need. So there's a whole range of issues there. But certainly, um, supply is the main one. How do we get more supply? I certainly agree, I think with everyone, John, Alex and Sarah, in terms of the comments they've all made about the different range of issues at play, and it requires, I think, every level of government to work together to deliver the outcome we need, which essentially is more housing. Thank you very much. Let's go back to Madeleine. What what do you make of what you have heard?
• 07:30 - 08:00 And also your question about that trade off, if you see it like that between building more houses and the environment. I mean, I do see it as a trade off. Developing more land means exacerbating the climate and the environmental problems, which means that a little bit further down the road, there are going to be a hell of a lot more homeless people. Some of the homeless people that we currently have our homeless because they've been inundated by floods and burnt out of their homes.
• 08:00 - 08:30 And that's due to our screwed up attitude about climate. When you talk about, um, we can have it all. We can't. We have to change our attitude. Alexandra is absolutely correct. We need, I'm sorry, a more social look at this. Because if we don't join together and and fix this, it's not my lifetime. I'm 60 years old. In ten years, my. I won't be able to grow plants in my garden. We have to stop talking about minimising the problem and telling people they can have what they have and change our attitude.
• 08:30 - 09:00 Madeleine, thank you very much. Thanks for your question. Thank you for your comments afterwards as well. Let's go on to our second question. It comes from Ceinwen Gearon in Western Australia. Hello. Hello, Johnny. Hiya. Um, I come from a place called Denmark, which is on the south coast of Western Australia. And I'm intrigued to hear all the commentary around climate, because I live in a town that has become a refuge
• 09:00 - 09:30 for people escaping climate in the northern parts of Western Australia. But my question to the panel is not about climate. My question is this Australia has failed to celebrate and support its own First Nations people. Aboriginal people in Australia have significantly shorter lives, suffer a greater burden of chronic illness and higher rates of incarceration than their non-Indigenous peers. How does the panel suggest we improve outcomes for Aboriginal people
• 09:30 - 10:00 and recognition of their culture and knowledge, not just in Australia but the world? Thank you very much, Kenwyn. Thank you for that question. Australia's First Nations or First Peoples have suffered mightily, um, since Australia was founded and their life outcomes today on nearly every metric are significantly worse than those who came later to Australia. We had hoped to have someone from First Nations on the panel,
• 10:00 - 10:30 but unfortunately because of illness, she was not able to make it. Um, let me first ask Alexandra Smith about this vexed question in Australia's dialogue about itself. There is no doubt that it's still very shameful where we are in terms of our Indigenous population and I think no doubt, um, well, it was divided and it certainly wasn't a homogenous group in terms of, um, the voice that went to a referendum at the end of 2023.
• 10:30 - 11:00 Now, I think in many ways that set the country back a long way, because there would be no. Very briefly, just explain to those who don't know, this was a referendum on a consultative body. It was slightly unclear as to what the body would be, and a consultative body to the legislature. That would be an express sort of voice for First Nations or First Peoples. I think I've got that summary right there. That's right. That is right. And I guess you sort of hit the nail on the head in some ways as to why it probably failed.
• 11:00 - 11:30 And this is a bigger issue that we could debate. But there was concern. And that's why the no vote prevailed, because there was some uncertainty around what actually this voice to Parliament would be. Nonetheless, I think what it showed was there is still a big divide in Australia between our Indigenous community and our non-Indigenous community. And as you said, we still have, you know, huge rates of incarceration, um,
• 11:30 - 12:00 lower health outcomes, lower education outcomes. And I just think given we're now in 2025, it is quite shameful that we haven't come further. I know governments of all persuasions have tried from time to time, but we haven't come anywhere near close enough. And I think as an Australian talking to an international audience, um, I think a lot of us would feel quite disappointed of where we are in this country. Given to when you look at how other countries have handled their Indigenous populations.
• 12:00 - 12:30 You know, like Canada, for example, I think, or New Zealand particularly. I think Australia has a very long way to go. Thank you very much indeed. Katy Gallagher, Minister of Finance. Back in 2008, there was a programme, wasn't there, called Closing the Gap that was supposed to, well, close the gap between what some people call Indigenous and non-Indigenous populations in Australia that is widely judged to have failed. Are you concerned about the gap and the continuing failures in public policy.
• 12:30 - 13:00 Closing the gap? And we have an annual statement to the Parliament on closing the gap, so it remains in place and those targets remain in place. And there's been progress about against some, including the birth weight of First Nations babies and areas like that. But there hasn't been enough progress. And there's some areas where we're where we're making no progress, and that's in areas like, uh, incarceration rates. Um, you know, um, in, in education, we're doing better with the younger children,
• 13:00 - 13:30 but there's. As you say, against closing the gap. We haven't reached the targets that have been set, but it is an annual update to the Parliament, which I think shows you how important it's treated. Um, I think the voice referendum just to to return to that briefly. Um, you know, I think unfortunately, we were supporting a yes case. It became very political. Um, referendums traditionally have to have bipartisan support to get up. They're very hard to get up to change our constitution. We didn't have that. It became very political.
• 13:30 - 14:00 And it's unfortunate that that went down very unfortunate. But from the government's point of view, uh, our focus remains. It's really now, how do we partner with First Nations communities to deliver the programs and supports they need? I think in the past, there's been a lot of, uh, people telling First Nations people what they need. Um, the progress that we're seeing and we are seeing progress in particular communities, um, is where they are community led solutions.
• 14:00 - 14:30 Thank you very much. John Pesutto from the opposition liberals. I think all Australians, I think of goodwill, want to see better outcomes for Indigenous Australians in my state. You know, out of home care is for young Indigenous kids, is twice the national rate. We had a 5.5% increase in incarceration rates, uh, last year. Uh, and uh, secondary school attainment still falls well behind the general population. So there's a general recognition that we're not meeting those targets. And it's the hard work of delivering programs.
• 14:30 - 15:00 I think putting politics aside, I don't think there's been such a shortage of funding. It's about how we, uh, uphold accountabilities in the way the money is delivered. And, yes, giving Indigenous communities a real and genuine say about how that money is deployed. Thank you very much indeed, Sarah Hanson-Young. That question about Out improving outcomes about making change happen on the ground. Well, firstly, I think it is important to acknowledge just how heartbroken, um, so many members of the First Nations community here in Australia was, um,
• 15:00 - 15:30 given the failure of the referendum and, and fair to say, not just members of the First Nations community, but many non-Indigenous citizens, uh, we we were all heartbroken. Um, those of us who desperately wanted, uh, the referendum to get up because we saw it as a, um, uh, a small but important step forward to reconciliation,
• 15:30 - 16:00 to community led outcomes, uh, and to ultimately to the process of, um, uh, a treaty and and truth telling. One of the things now, I think that we struggle with, uh, all politicians, uh, levels of government is how we, um, can work with the trust of Indigenous communities, given how hard, how hard the loss of that referendum was. Overwhelmingly. First Nations people voted for a voice.
• 16:00 - 16:30 Uh, so there is a really there's a hard, um, uh, bridge now, uh, to, to rebuild. Um, we actually have to build a new bridge of trust. And I think that, uh, is is not being done at the moment. Um, it takes time. It takes some humility from, um, those of us who are not members of the First Nations communities. Um, and it means a bit of truth telling about what has happened, both, um, historically, but also in the more recent history as well.
• 16:30 - 17:00 Thank you very much indeed, Sarah Hanson-Young. Thank you. Um, can I go back to Ceinwen? Um, what did you make of what you heard? Oh, not at all reassured. Um, like Alex, I feel an immense sense of shame about what happened with the referendum. I don't feel reassured that there is an annual reporting of poor outcomes on closing the gap. Just reporting them annually doesn't make them any better. And whilst I do acknowledge that there has been an improvement
• 17:00 - 17:30 in birth rates for Aboriginal infants, I guess the thing that resonates most with me is Sarah Hanson-Young, Senator Hanson-young's commentary, and that is around truth telling and acknowledging a colonial past. And I think what has happened, um, absolutely was heartbreaking for Aboriginal people. They asked us for a week of mourning after the failure of the referendum. Um, and uh, many people did not acknowledge that week of mourning.
• 17:30 - 18:00 Thank you so much for your question, and thank you for your thoughts. We'll go on to our next question. It comes from Helen Chisholm in Mudgee. I hope I pronounced that right. Uh, small rural town in New South Wales. Helen. So my question is simply this why aren't there enough doctors in inland New South Wales? The truth is that a lot of the majority of medical graduates head to the big cities in Australia. Healthcare in rural, rural Australia,
• 18:00 - 18:30 in remote and very remote areas is much, much harder to come by. Life expectancies in remote and very remote areas are sharply lower than they are in the big city. I'm going to put this one just to the politicians, if I may, and it's going to go first to the Minister of Finance, Katy Gallagher. Yes. So this is partly an issue. Um, how do you provide healthcare across a huge country where you have big regions, big cities, regional centres, and then smaller, smaller towns and then villages and very isolated
• 18:30 - 19:00 and rural and remote communities across the country. Um, I think in relation to GPS and access to primary care in those communities like Mudgee. So where you are, Helen? Um, it's about getting more GPS in to partly to train more GPS. And we've had seen a big decline in the number of doctors who have been trained in the hospitals who want to take up general practice. And that's partly because of, you know,
• 19:00 - 19:30 the the conditions that GPS work in across Australia. So we have to incentivise more doctors that we train here, and we have to get more doctors from overseas. And we've seen quite a lot of progress on that. We've had thousands of applications coming in from overseas trained doctors in the last two years and putting all of that together, more training, more incentives and and trying to make sure that we're looking at every way of modernising the healthcare system
• 19:30 - 20:00 so we can deliver it to a country as wide and varied as Australia is. Thank you. Senator Hanson-Young from the Australian Greens. Thank you. Um, this is an issue I'm particularly passionate about. Actually, Helen, I grew up in a small country town in, um, actually country Victoria and, um, back then, um, you know, 40 odd years ago, um, we had, uh, doctors in the local hospital. Um, women could have their babies at the local hospital.
• 20:00 - 20:30 Uh, there were midwives available. And if you needed specialist care, then, um, there would be a doctor that you had a relationship with who could help facilitate that if you needed to go to the Big smoke, um, for specialist services. Um, fast forward, and we're now in a situation where that town, just as an example, um, you can't have a baby at that hospital because the hospital is effectively, um, being shut down. Um, there's no midwifery services.
• 20:30 - 21:00 There's, um, you struggle to get the same doctor because it's a rotation of locums. Um, so it hasn't always been like this, and it is a symptom of, um, the workforce. Um, and there's not enough of them. They're not being there's not enough being meat in train. There's not enough incentives to live in these areas. But it is a systematic cutting of health funding over decades and it not being prioritised. It's too easy to send the money to the hospitals in the city and
• 21:00 - 21:30 think that if you've got a problem, you can jump on a bus or a train and get there when there's an emergency, when there's a health crisis, that doesn't happen. So I actually think we need more politicians spending a bit more time in our regional areas to make sure the funding flows. Thank you very much, Senator Hanson-Young. Katy Gallagher, do you want to come back very briefly? I mean, she she essentially is saying that you're underfunding rural healthcare. Is that fair? Well, again, I don't think it's a shortage of money.
• 21:30 - 22:00 Um, you know, if we could we put, uh, $3.5 billion into bulk billing for Medicare. Um, so the funding is there, but you need doctors in order to, to utilise that incentive. So fixing the workforce is part of it. One of the issues about babies in small having babies and those services in small communities. It is, um, you know, the level of skill of the practitioner to deliver those babies. And in the past, midwives did do it. But now with insurance and, and legal um, cases, um, insurers are
• 22:00 - 22:30 very, very reluctant to insure those smaller hospitals for birthing services if they don't have a gynaecologist or obstetrician there. And so it is bigger than just, um, solving it with money or politicians or political will. It's an area. It's an area of passion for me to make sure we hear from John Pesutto, from the opposition liberals. Um, there's quite a lot of talk of, um, of bringing in doctors from abroad and an enormous number proportion
• 22:30 - 23:00 of those who are in rural areas now are migrant doctors. Is that one of the answers you want to see, pursued John? I think the points made about recruiting more doctors, getting them into our medical schools and then out into practice is is something that I think is commonly held as a view. But there's just a couple of points I would add to the discussion. First of all, I think in terms of health funding by the states, I think certainly in the case of my state of Victoria, but I know it's echoed around the country, is that, um, I think governments are totally underestimating health demand
• 23:00 - 23:30 and demand for clinical services at our hospital networks. That's putting enormous pressure on there. So it is I would disagree with the minister slightly that I do think it is a funding issue and governments understanding how to match, certainly at a state level, how to match that funding for services and demand in hospital networks across the state. The only other point, I'd add, John, is that when GPS set up practice, particularly Helen, in regional areas, their primary focus is the care that they provide
• 23:30 - 24:00 in ministering to the needs of of those who need that support. We also have to remember that they're running a business, and whether it's the regulation or whether it's the level of taxes they pay, it does put enormous pressure on them. And I'll speak again. In the case of my own state, where payroll taxes now have been extended to many tenant doctor arrangements in our state, which just adds to the cost and makes it harder for GP clinics to be able to operate in a sustainable way. John Pesutto, thank you very much, Helen, who asked the question.
• 24:00 - 24:30 Um, have you got personal experience of this? It rather sounds as if you may do. Yes. I'd first make the point that, um, Mudgee is a 2.5 hour drive to the western suburbs of Sydney. So we're not exactly isolated, you know, um, and, uh, at a personal level, um, my grandson, this is where I came into it. My grandson was told he's 21. He tried to make a doctor's appointment a few months ago, and he was told that they'd close the books had kicked him off the list.
• 24:30 - 25:00 And if it was important to go to the hospital. There are two medical practices in Mudgee. Both have now closed their books. Um, and I have spoken to people who are going to Dubbo for For hospital. That's a round trip of 200 and plus kilometres. Um, or going to Lithgow or going back to Sydney where they've come from, which can be a round trip of about 500km in order to see a doctor. We have a crisis right now on Sydney's doorstep.
• 25:00 - 25:30 Let's go straight to our next question. It comes from Dennis Tolkach. I hope I pronounced that correctly in Queensland, northeastern Australia. Who works in higher education. Hi, Dennis. Hello, everyone. Uh, international education is one of Australia's biggest export industries. However, the government policy uncertainties and the drop in international student commencement numbers are supposed to have a huge negative impact on higher education sector and the economy more broadly. What does the future of Australia's international education look like in 2025 and beyond?
• 25:30 - 26:00 Thank you very much, Dennis. Um, the question, what does the future of international education look like for Australia? With policy uncertainty and a drop in international students having a negative impact on the higher education sector and economy more broadly. Australia has a flourishing overseas student population. Some say that its university sector is too dependent on overseas students. There's about 800000 of them. That's one in every 34 people in Australia is an overseas student.
• 26:00 - 26:30 They bring in billions of dollars every year in fees. But there is also concern that they are adding to or part of the spike in migration, which has also been a hot topic in Australia. So the government has introduced what's been called a soft cap, a slowing of visa processing. Um, let's speak, if we could, to John Pesutto, first of all, from the opposition liberals on this issue, what do you think about the the trade off,
• 26:30 - 27:00 as some people see it in visas and the money that students bring in and the experience they bring in, and whether there are too many students. I haven't, uh, joined the rush to, um, uh, identify international students as the bane of all of Australia's current challenges. I think international student education is uh, really important to Australia, not just socially and culturally, but economically. Of course, it's, um, depending on which measure you adopt,
• 27:00 - 27:30 it's our third or fourth largest export. Uh, it's very important. And I want to see it maintained. Even the reserve Bank of Australia has identified the risks of, um, uh, what, uh, effects cutting, uh, international student education in Australia will have in terms of domestic demand, uh, not to mention job losses across our tertiary education sector. I can understand the concerns, but, uh, the concerns that come in terms of pressures on housing come from overall population growth.
• 27:30 - 28:00 And I just think we need to be very measured, uh, and temperate when we look at the responses to that. Thank you very much indeed. Alexandra Smith from the Sydney Morning Herald. This is. This has turned into a big issue. The sort of merging of migration issues and overseas students, the money they bring in, the pressures they bring as well. Well, for a. Start, there is no doubt that international students are hugely important to the university sector in Australia. Um, you know, they've been described as cash cows for universities and in fact, they are.
• 28:00 - 28:30 We can't deny that. But at the same time, I think it would be wrong. And I think John made this point to suggest that international students coming into Australia are putting a big strain on our system in particularly the housing, um, issue that we've got at the moment. Um, we need to instead of targeting international students, we I think we need to better look at how housing further, uh, we do housing to ensure that, you know, we can cater
• 28:30 - 29:00 for these international students because we saw the impacts during the Covid lockdowns when international students were barred from coming in to Australia, you know, because of the border closures. I mean, that had huge impacts on a lot of broader areas of the economy. Um, you know, we're really struggling in terms of, um, you know, people working in different sorts of sectors. You know, so many businesses closed up shops because they once they would have employed, you know, international students to work in their whatever sort of industry they may have.
• 29:00 - 29:30 Of course, they left the country and, and, you know, those businesses closed or really suffered. So I think it's really important that we we really acknowledge that international students are really important to Australia, not just because, of course, the money that they bring to the university sector. But, you know, Australia prides itself on being a very multicultural country. At the same time, I do acknowledge that there are pressures, you know, on the system and particularly housing. But we can't just blame international students. Okay. Thank you. I want to go back to to Dennis just briefly before we get the rest of the answers.
• 29:30 - 30:00 Dennis, you're you work in higher education. You talk about a huge negative impact on, um, your sector. I mean, you've seen that yourself, have you? Um, yes, I have actually. University I work at, um, has announced redundancies last year alongside several other big, um, prominent Australian institutions. And that was a direct result of the ministerial direction. And uh, currently we still have a lot of uncertainty.
• 30:00 - 30:30 And I think the higher education sector cannot plan for the long term future because every policy change affects us for two or three or four years. Um, okay. Let me put that point directly, if I may, to, um, the minister, Minister of Finance, Katy Gallagher. The uncertainty is making it very difficult to plan, and there is a real impact to what you've done when it comes to visas. Well, I think, uh, when we put together the legislation
• 30:30 - 31:00 that didn't pass the parliament, um, we did consult heavily with, uh, education providers. Um, so we'd worked closely with them to try and understand what their numbers were and what a reasonable cap might be. But there's a couple of issues here. One, that there was real integrity problems with the international education market, particularly in vocational education and training. So we've had to tighten up some requirements around that. We've had to make sure we've got a sustainable
• 31:00 - 31:30 international education system as well, which is looking, you know, at managing some of the significant increases in numbers that we saw come, particularly post Covid. And this was also coming to a select number of universities. It wasn't being shared across the country. So one of the things we were trying to do with the caps, and which is being done now with the soft caps, is to prioritise visas to um regional universities, smaller universities,
• 31:30 - 32:00 universities that aren't the big ones in the big cities. But um, the reason it was opposed by our opposition here, federal opposition was really big, you know, because they have a harder view on immigration, um, than the government does. And so, you know, they were saying the legislation wasn't worth it. It wasn't enough, in a sense. We think it was a measured way that it did provide that certainty. And it was allowing for a sustainable international education system, which I don't think anyone demonises international students.
• 32:00 - 32:30 They shouldn't, but we need to make sure it's sustainable and manageable. And the system we inherited wasn't either of those things. Thank you very much indeed. Um, Senator Hanson-Young for the Australian Greens. Um, the suggestion is of a huge negative impact. But there's a broader question, isn't there, about, um, the number of students, the dependency on overseas students, and also about the numbers coming in and the strains they cause. Yeah, I think there's a couple of issues that are being,
• 32:30 - 33:00 um, conveniently conflated. Um, to be perfectly blunt, um, we've had, uh, the The last two or three decades of um, systematic um cuts to university funding. Um, and the previous conservative government, uh, did that big pressures on universities to and in order to then make up that funding gap, uh, they increased the number of international students coming in a whole lot of services. Services weren't available for those students.
• 33:00 - 33:30 And so international students themselves started to feel as though they were being taken for granted, being used, uh, for, for, for the dollar they bring, but not actually, um, acknowledge for the education uh, um, and, and academic um, power that they were bringing. Um, we so we obviously have to get um, those settings right, but to simply use the numbers of international students as, uh,
• 33:30 - 34:00 the, the kind of the whipping boy for an argument about, um, migration numbers, I think is really abhorrent. And it's wrong and it's lazy because actually many within the conservative side of government, the conservative side of politics here in Australia. Um, that is the debate they want in the lead up to this election. They want it to be about migration. And the easy pickings are international students. In previous years, the easy pickings have been refugees and asylum seekers.
• 34:00 - 34:30 So this time round it's it's international students. Um, I do think we have to think a bit more globally about this. Australia is, um, uh, importantly placed where we are, um, kind of in the Asia Pacific region. Um, we have an enormous amount to give back to the global community when it comes to, um, the the soft diplomatic power of education. Thank you very much indeed, Senator. Thank you.
• 34:30 - 35:00 Um, Dennis, what did you make of what you heard there? It's great to hear the comments from the panel. If we are cutting down on international education, then hopefully there would be more support from the government for the domestic students and for the higher education. Um, I work in a regional university and in this programme we several times talked about the skilled labour shortages in regional areas. So especially the support for regional universities is really important. And, um, I really appreciate the comments from the panel.
• 35:00 - 35:30 Thank you. And that is all we have time for with World Questions Australia. First, let me thank our panel. Thank you for your time and your experience. Thanks to all our questioners. Thanks, of course, to you, our audience. Next month we will be in Vilnius, the capital of Lithuania. Until then, I'm Johnny Dymond. Thank you.