Why Bible Alone Doesn't Work: You Need the Church -Jay Dyer

Summary

In his livestream discussion, Jay Dyer addresses the misconception that the church fathers relied solely on scripture (sola scriptura) and emphasizes the necessary role of tradition and the church in understanding Christian teachings. Through historical references from St. Cyril of Jerusalem to the Seventh Ecumenical Council, Dyer argues that scripture and tradition are not at odds but complement each other within the life of the church. He illustrates how apostolic tradition, liturgical practices, and early church councils played essential roles in forming the Christian canon and doctrine over centuries, stressing that the pillars of truth according to Paul are the church itself, not just the scripture. Dyer aims to clarify how scripture, tradition, and the church work in harmony to bear witness to Christ.

Highlights

• Jay Dyer discusses why relying solely on the Bible isn't enough without the church.📖✝️
• Church fathers like St. Cyril believed in both scriptures and tradition. 🏛️📜
• The Seventh Ecumenical Council emphasized the role of biblical texts in church traditions. ⛪🕊️
• Apostolic tradition involves both written and oral teachings, not just scripture. 💬📝
• Liturgical practices and early church councils helped define Christian doctrine. 🎶📚

Key Takeaways

• Tradition and scripture work hand in hand in Christian teachings. 📘✝️
• Apostolic succession and synods shaped church doctrine over centuries. 📜⛪
• Liturgical lectionaries played a key role in forming the biblical canon. 🔔📖

Overview

Jay Dyer kicks off his discovery with a delicious debate on the apparent tug-of-war between the Bible and the church's traditions. Those who think the early church fathers based their beliefs solely on scriptures are in for a twist. Dyer enthusiastically delves into how figures like St. Cyril were all about blending the two — scriptures weren't the end-all-be-all!

He takes us on a historical time travel through the imposing walls of the Seventh Ecumenical Council, where historical church decisions were as tasty as your grandma's secret cookie recipe. It's all about that mix of written records and age-old traditions! Through synods and apostolic successions, the church has woven a rich tapestry of canons and doctrines that took ages to fine-tune.

Dyer's encore? He reveals how liturgical lectionaries were the rockstars in forming the biblical canon. The church's rituals and rounds of synods were instrumental in creating harmony between oral tradition and scripture, ensuring a robust framework to uphold Christian doctrines. It’s not just about what’s written; it’s about a timeless melody of tradition and scripture working in harmony.

Chapters

• 00:00 - 00:30: Introduction and St. Cyril of Jerusalem This chapter discusses the catechetical lectures of St. Cyril of Jerusalem. It highlights a statement made by St. Cyril, emphasizing that if he, as a bishop, cannot convince people from the scriptures, they should not accept his words. This is sometimes misinterpreted as an endorsement of 'sola scriptura,' but the chapter suggests that such interpretations are often the result of selective reading or 'cherry-picking,' possibly influenced by Protestant apologetic perspectives.
• 00:30 - 01:00: Church Fathers and Orthodox Tradition The chapter delves into the perspectives of the Church Fathers, highlighting their openness to embracing multiple truths without perceiving them as opposing forces. In Orthodox belief, Revelation is viewed as complete and the Canon is closed, indicating no new Revelations will emerge. The Orthodox tradition distances itself from certain charismatic expressions perceived as inauthentic, such as excessive speaking in tongues or random speech.
• 01:00 - 01:30: St. Ambrose and the Catechetical Lectures The chapter titled "St. Ambrose and the Catechetical Lectures" discusses the connection between St. Ambrose’s writings and the catechetical lectures, particularly focusing on his work related to the Eucharist and baptism. This work serves as a guide for new converts during Lent and is often compared to St. Cyril of Jerusalem's catechetical lectures. The chapter highlights St. Ambrose’s unwavering beliefs in the same doctrines as those discussed in the catechetical lectures.
• 01:30 - 02:00: Scriptural Tradition in Church Councils The chapter discusses the role of scriptural tradition in church councils, pointing out that throughout history, particularly in church councils, there has been a significant reliance on scripture to validate theological discussions and decisions. It mentions that figures like Ambrose have discussed the importance of tradition. The chapter highlights that there is no inherent conflict between proving assertions with scripture and maintaining tradition. The example given is the 7th Council of Nicaea in 787, where the majority of arguments in favor of iconography were based on biblical references.
• 02:00 - 02:30: Paul and Oral Tradition The chapter discusses the defense of dyothelitism, the belief in the dual nature of Christ, during the Sixth Council. St. Maximus plays a significant role as his work forms the basis for this council. He examines various gospel texts to demonstrate the dual nature of Jesus, highlighting both human and divine energies in Christ's life. The chapter underscores the authoritative precedence of these theological conclusions.
• 02:30 - 03:00: Formation of the Biblical Canon This chapter explores the formation of the Biblical canon, highlighting the coexistence and mutual reinforcement of scripture and tradition as sources of Revelation. It discusses how councils have historically ratified the authority of both the Bible and the traditions of the Church Fathers, emphasizing that the mind of the Church remains consistent over time.
• 03:00 - 03:30: Infallibility of the Nicene Creed This chapter discusses the concept of the infallibility of the Nicene Creed, focusing on the differentiation between the creed's authority and the doctrine of 'sola scriptura.' It highlights the belief that Christ promised that the Holy Spirit would guide the Church into all truth. The chapter refers to early church arguments, particularly against the monothelites, demonstrating how scripture was used in those arguments. A discussion is presented on the difference between reliance on scripture alone versus the belief in the guidance of the Holy Spirit collectively through Church teachings.
• 03:30 - 04:00: Liturgical Influence on Canon Formation This chapter explores how the liturgical practices of early Christian communities influenced the formation of the biblical canon. By analyzing Paul's instructions in Second Thessalonians regarding maintaining traditions, both oral and written, the chapter underscores the significance of how Paul conducted his ministry, as depicted in the Book of Acts. Specifically, it reflects on how Paul preached extensively and tirelessly, often using the law to prove Christ and edify the church, such as the instance where a man fell and injured himself during one of Paul's prolonged teachings. The chapter highlights that the oral teachings of Paul, backed by his apostolic authority, were considered the word of God, thus playing a crucial role in shaping early Christian doctrinal structures.

Why Bible Alone Doesn't Work: You Need the Church -Jay Dyer Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 so if you read for example the catechetical lectures of St seral of Jerusalem which I quote quite often I've done I've done lectures on the total work um you will find him saying that if I as a bishop come to you and I can't convince you from the scriptures you shouldn't believe what I say right right now that sounds like it would be a statement about soul scriptura but the problem is that they will also make the same statements in other places and so this comes from a kind of Cher cherry picking or if you just read Protestant apologist treatments of the church
• 00:30 - 01:00 fathers amongst the minds of the fathers they don't have a problem saying both things and and that's because they don't see a dialectical opposition between these things in fact even as Orthodox we don't have a problem saying that that Revelation uh is is essentially the Canon is closed and there is a preeminence given to Revelation there's not ever going to be any new Revelations there's no uh charismatic gifts like charismatic s in the in the sense of like yapping and and and uh uh rambling or whatever and that's why you could at
• 01:00 - 01:30 like right next to Ambrose's work that you're talking about is his work on the Mysteries which is about the Eucharist and baptism uh it's about uh what to do during Lent it's a it's a little work written for uh people who've converted and it's it's often compared to St s of Jerusalem's book catechetical lecture so it's almost like uh St Ambrose's version of the catechetical lectures and if you go through that you'll find that he has no problem uh believing all of the same uh things that
• 01:30 - 02:00 we do nowadays and I and you will you can find Ambrose also talking about uh tradition so what I'm saying is that is that these things for us aren't necessarily they're not an odds there's not there's not a an opposition between on the one hand saying you have to prove things from the scriptures because if you look at all the councils for example even the seventh Council of NAA or excuse me NAA 2 787 the 7th Council when they argue for icons majority of the argument ation has to do with Biblical
• 02:00 - 02:30 texts uh the same thing goes in the sixth Council when St Maximus is defending um dotism against the monothelites which his work becomes the basis for the sixth Council the majority of the work is just looking into the gospels and the different texts about jesus' life and showing how look there's there's both a human nature and a divine nature and there's energies property to both of those Natures in the Life of Christ uh so in other words yes the con the the the preeminent Authority is the
• 02:30 - 03:00 scriptures but that's not necessarily in our view uh set over against or contrary to the idea that there's also uh Revelation in in Tradition that is true and should be held held as authoritative and that's why NAA and later councils ratify earlier councils that say you also have to follow uh the traditions of the fathers because we don't believe that there's a there's going to be a distinction between the mind of the church over time
• 03:00 - 03:30 and what's in scripture because Christ promised you know that the spirit would lead the church into all truth okay so the icons and arguments against the monothelites are usually argued for in the early church with scripture sure okay so then how do you not see that as solos scriptura what would be the difference then in your view uh compared to what you would assume solos scriptura would then be like what would be the difference then regarding that well for our view the
• 03:30 - 04:00 when Paul says in second Thessalonians to keep the Traditions whether oral or written if you think about how he would have gone about setting up the churches he if you look in the book of Acts for example he goes and he preaches for extended periods of time like he'll preach for an entire day or all night from the law you know trying to prove Christ and then he'll edify the church like you know the situation I think the guy falls out of the the The Loft and breaks his neck because Paul preached the whole night so Paul with Apostolic Authority everything that he taught orally uh was the word of God in fact if
• 04:00 - 04:30 you read both of the letters to Timothy Paul confirms this he says that everything that you heard me preach Timothy was the word of God uh Peter says the same thing in his Epistles that the word that you heard preached was the word of God so it wasn't just the written text it was everything committed to them and that's why Paul gives the injunction to the Thessalonians to pass on both his written text because presumably the Church of thessalonica would have limited numbers of Epistles or gospels right they might have you know three gospels and two Epistles you
• 04:30 - 05:00 know they might have who knows and then when we look at the generation immediately after the apostles what we see in the different Bishops that were set up is differing traditions in terms of who had what text right so uh in in in Alexandria they would have had uh Mark's gospel and you know maybe John's gospel and a few other of Paul's Epistles and so you start to see over time that it's it's it takes time for the church to to spread
• 05:00 - 05:30 authentic and non-authentic to far it out the authentic from the non-authentic So eventually over several centuries it actually takes St athanasius going to Rome to convince the bishop of Rome to include the Book of Revelation for example that's covered at length in I think Lee McDonald's book on it um who's a Baptist scholar by the way uh so so the point is is that that for in our review the church as Paul says to Timothy is the pillar and ground of truth it's not the written text Jesus says you search the written text because you thinks it is them in them that you
• 05:30 - 06:00 have eternal life when is they that bear witness of me so we we see scripture and the church and the icons and Revelation and oral tradition all bearing witness to Christ and they're not dialectically set in opposition to one another for example uh the nyine Creed is infallible and absolutely true because it is an exact summation of the things that are taught in scripture so we don't have to see that as like oh that's that's like uh in opposition to the written text because it's a man-made Creed no we
• 06:00 - 06:30 think that the church absolutely has the same power of Pentecost uh that was given in Acts two continuing on it didn't die with the apostles the apostles ordained Bishops those Bishops ordained Bishops Paul says to Timothy don't lay hands on anybody uh hastily and he says keep this deposit and pass it on to men who will be able to do so Faithfully so that is Apostolic succession and that's how the church passes on the tradition but different Apostles set up different seat and churches and that's why synods the codal
• 06:30 - 07:00 form of church government was so crucial was that it took many centuries of synods for the church to figure out okay this is you know the the the true Catholic Doctrine this is not the true Catholic Doctrine everybody believes this about baptism everybody believes this about the real presence of the of of the Eucharist everybody believes this about you know the deity and person of Christ uh and then oh everybody has accepted these books uh you know let's
• 07:00 - 07:30 debate Revelation for a while we don't know if this is canonical and then eventually okay it is so it's a very long process and obviously none of these churches are operating just on the basis of solar scriptura okay so you believe how do you know that nice seeing Creed is considered infallible well we've always said it's infallible um athus says that it was a council gathered under the power of the Holy Spirit and everybody must accept it or they're heretic um so I mean there's C there's plenty of of quotes in the
• 07:30 - 08:00 church fathers about uh it being that the Holy Spirit guides the church in The ecumenical councils I mean that's the normative I mean that is orthodox theology but another Point too that you have to understand which I don't think you understand about how the Canon was formed was that it wasn't just a matter of looking at um the actual written gospels that the various Seas possessed or didn't possessed uh and then also looking at what church fathers quoted what there's also an important aspect to called the lectionaries the daily
• 08:00 - 08:30 readings in the Liturgy so there were also important lurgical traditions in every one of these major Apostolic seas that were set up and so they passed on a specific way to worship which came out of the synagogue system mainly it also had influence from the temple uh worship as well and there's absolutely no debate amongst Scholars from pretty much any tradition that whatever you think of the early church the church in the first 2 third centuries had adopted Ed this
• 08:30 - 09:00 basic lurgical pattern for worship now the reason that matters for the Canon is precisely because many of these liturgical texts these ancient lurgical Traditions include large quotations and and sections of scripture that would be read daily in the churches so if you go to an Orthodox Church especially in a big city there will be daily readings so basically okay if you go to the the Orthodox liturgy for an entire year you get the entire Bible basically okay um and this is pattern on the way that the
• 09:00 - 09:30 apostles even in the book of Acts still were going to the temple and praying daily and there would be daily scripture readings so in other words what I'm saying is that liturgies are are crucial uh not just textual comparisons and not just traditions of the different Bishop Ricks but also uh the lurgical lectionaries are crucial also to understanding what went into making a book uh uh canonical or not and once you understand that then you understand that oh wait okay so actually a big part of
• 09:30 - 10:00 of the tradition of how we know the Canon involves L liturgy and lurgical worship which reform people reject [Music]