Why You Should Ban Multiclassing in D&D 5e featuring @DnDDeepDive

Summary

In this compelling video, the Dungeon Dudes discuss the complexities and potential pitfalls of multiclassing in D&D 5e. They explore whether banning multiclassing might lead to a more balanced and enjoyable gaming experience, especially for tables with both new and experienced players. Highlighting the power discrepancies and design challenges posed by multiclassing, they suggest that understanding the dynamics at your table can inform whether multiclassing should be banned in your campaign sessions.

Highlights

• Multiclassing allows for unique characters but comes with a complex rule set. ⚖️
• It can create unbalanced power dynamics at the table if not carefully managed. 🎭
• New players might find multiclassing overwhelming, potentially leading to mistakes. 😵
• Experienced players can exploit multiclassing to gain substantial power over others. 🔥
• The video emphasizes assessing multiplayer dynamics before deciding on multiclassing. 🌐

Key Takeaways

• Multiclassing can lead to powerful and unique characters, but also to complex, unbalanced, and overpowered builds. 🎭
• The rules for multiclassing in D&D 5e are often misunderstood, amplifying power imbalances. 📜
• Banning multiclassing could level the playing field, ensuring all players contribute equally to the game. ⚖️
• Multiclassing requires careful consideration during session zero, especially in mixed-experience groups. 🤔
• The history and design of multiclassing reveal its challenges and potential impacts on game dynamics. 📚

Overview

D&D players are often enamored by multiclassing because it allows for unique and diverse character builds, extending beyond the limits of a single class. However, Dungeon Dudes stress that these benefits come at a cost, as multiclassing can make the game more complex and uneven. The web of rules is intricate and known for exceptions, contributing to confusion, especially among newer players.

The video argues for potentially banning multiclassing to avoid disparities in power levels among players at the table. This is important in groups with both seasoned players who grasp rules intricately and newcomers who might inadvertently build less effective characters. Multiclassing can especially skew game balance if experienced players use it to create overpowered characters, complicating game dynamics.

Ultimately, Dungeon Dudes recommend a conscientious approach where players and Dungeon Masters discuss multiclassing's role in their campaign during session zero. This dialogue can help ensure that the gaming experience remains enjoyable and fair for everyone involved, keeping in mind the narrative and design elements that multiclassing impacts.

Chapters

• 00:00 - 00:30: Introduction to Multiclassing Multiclassing introduces the concept of building unique and mechanically distinct characters by blending elements from various classes in D&D 5e. This approach breaks the limitations of a singular class, offering powerful and intriguing build options. By mixing and matching levels in different classes, and combining them with subclasses, feats, and spells, players can significantly expand their character options as they progress. Despite the enjoyment of creating multiclass characters, the rules governing multiclassing can be quite complex.
• 00:30 - 01:00: Complexity and Overpowered Builds This chapter delves into the issues surrounding complexity and overpowered builds in Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition, focusing on the intricacies and potential problems of multiclassing. It discusses how these rules can lead to character builds that feel broken or overwhelmingly powerful, posing challenges to traditional role-playing narratives. Examples include holy paladins making strange alliances with demon lords or fighters mastering wizardry abruptly. The chapter suggests that these issues could justify banning multiclassing from gameplay to maintain balance and narrative integrity.
• 01:00 - 01:30: Sponsorship: Dream Realm Storytellers This chapter discusses the sponsorship of the show by Dream Realm Storytellers. They are introducing a new campaign setting called 'Fillain' for D&D 5e, inspired by Norse mythology. A Kickstarter for this setting is launching this month, making it an exciting time for fans of role-playing games.
• 01:30 - 03:00: The Fillain Setting Kickstarter The chapter "The Fillain Setting Kickstarter" discusses the upcoming releases related to a fictional setting reminiscent of popular games like God of War, The Witcher, Hellblade, and Skyrim. The narrative draws parallels to the experience of long-term players of Skyrim, suggesting that those who find themselves repeatedly drawn to such expansive and immersive worlds will find appeal in this new setting. The Kickstarter involves the release of two new books that expand upon this setting. Specifically, "The Lost Lands of Orfal," which adds to the Norse-inspired landscape with over 50 new elements or features.
• 03:00 - 03:30: Begin Episode Discussion on Multiclassing In this chapter, the focus is on new additions to the 5th Edition (5e) of a game, featuring Norse-inspired monsters such as the Dragger Jotin and the Dragger Rottbringer. Additionally, the chapter introduces two new character classes, highlighting the 'Herald.' This class presents a unique blend between a warlock and a cleric, drawing powers from the Norse deities, the Aesir and the Vanir. The Herald is characterized by its ability to bring prophecies of Ragnarok and offers players customization through character augmentations.
• 03:30 - 05:30: Multiclassing as a Potential Trap The chapter discusses the potential pitfalls of multiclassing in tabletop role-playing games. It highlights content from a Kickstarter project, featuring new monsters and a preview of the Herald class, and introduces 'At the Heart of Frost,' an adventure book taking players from levels three to twelve over about 250 pages. The book is centered around the dynamics of two rival war bands engaged in epic battles, allowing players to choose sides and align with different factions.
• 05:30 - 06:30: Character Power Differences The chapter discusses the dynamics and importance of character power differences in a game setting. It highlights the replayability of games that allow players to choose different sides, thereby experiencing diverse campaigns. An active Kickstarter campaign is mentioned, offering early backers a set of dice among other rewards. The chapter teases a discussion on the topic of possibly banning multiclassing, which could affect character power dynamics.
• 06:30 - 11:00: Frontloaded Class Features and Dipping The chapter discusses the concept of multiclassing in role-playing games, highlighting its complexity and potential pitfalls for new players. It explains that while classes and subclasses are generally designed to be foolproof, multiclassing requires more careful consideration to avoid choosing combinations that do not synergize well and could result in suboptimal character builds.
• 11:00 - 13:30: Role-playing and Narrative Concerns The chapter explores the complexities and nuances of role-playing games, particularly focusing on character creation through multiclassing. It highlights how experienced players might leverage their understanding of rules to optimize character performance compared to newer players, thus creating a significant disparity. Analyzing multiclassing tier rankings, the chapter notes that many combinations are ineffective due to the complexity of ability score requirements.
• 13:30 - 17:00: Multiclassing Rules and Misconceptions The chapter 'Multiclassing Rules and Misconceptions' discusses the challenges and limitations of creating a multiclass character in D&D 5th Edition. It highlights that multiclassing can require spreading ability score points across multiple attributes to meet the minimum requirements for each class. This can dilute a character's power since D&D 5e tends to reward specialization, making multiclass characters potentially less effective by being broadly skilled but lacking depth in any one area.
• 17:00 - 23:00: History of Multiclassing in D&D The chapter explores the concept of multiclassing in Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) and how it emphasizes the versatility of character builds. It discusses the balance between developing a wide range of skills and focusing on concentrating power into one or two ability scores to excel significantly in specific aspects of gameplay. This chapter highlights that while there are significantly versatile character builds, they are a narrow subset, primarily emphasizing optimizing abilities into concentrated power areas rather than diversifying across many abilities.
• 23:00 - 30:00: Opinions on Banning Multiclassing The chapter discusses the opinions on banning multiclassing in games. It argues that a majority of multiclassing options can be detrimental to builds, while a few strong options may break the game. The chapter references Col's channel, D4 D and D Deep Dive, which demonstrates how the entire game can be broken through multiclassing.
• 30:00 - 33:00: Design Challenges with Multiclassing This chapter addresses the challenges associated with multiclassing in role-playing games. It uses a humorous context, referencing Canadians' niceness, and a metaphorical 'break-up' with someone named Kelly. The focus is on an 'illusionist wizard' and 'level one fighter' multiclass combination. The discussion suggests that multiclassing is often a 'noob trap,' implying it can lead to less optimal character builds for inexperienced players. The chapter ends with a cautionary note about the potential downsides of multiclassing.
• 33:00 - 35:00: Conclusion and Viewer Engagement In the conclusion, the discussion focuses on the dynamics of multiclassing in games, particularly how it can create a significant power imbalance between new and experienced players. The experienced players tend to leverage multiclassing to maximize their characters' power, leading to a noticeable gap in performance at mixed-experience game tables. The chapter ends on a reflective note with a personal anecdote about experiencing this firsthand in a home game.

Why You Should Ban Multiclassing in D&D 5e featuring @DnDDeepDive Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 multiclassing is one of the most meaningful ways to build a unique and mechanically distinct character in D&D 5e Breaking out of the limitations of a singular class Powerful and interesting builds are possible by allowing characters to mix and match levels in various classes The combination of classes subasses feats and spells greatly increases the options player characters have to choose from as they gain levels Although it's a ton of fun to build a multiclass character the multiclassing rules are a complex mess
• 00:30 - 01:00 filled with exceptions but can also be a pathway to character builds that many would consider overpowered and broken Worse they can lead to strange questions about role- playinging such as why holy paladins suddenly have sworn a warlock pack to a demon lord or why the fighter suddenly mastered wizardry So today we're going to take a look at how the multiclassing rules are broken in D and D 5e and why you might want to simply ban them entirely at your table There's
• 01:00 - 01:30 a lot to discuss today so let's get rolling This week's episode of our show is sponsored by Dream Realm Storytellers and their civil campaign setting This is a role playing universe for D&D 5e inspired by Norse mythology They're expanding their incredible setting with a new Kickstarter launching this month The fillain setting is perfect for 5 players who are fans of worlds and
• 01:30 - 02:00 stories like the God of War series The Witcher uh Hellblade and the Elder Scrolls like Skyrim Uh if you've played Skyrim for as many years and as long as I have and keep going back to it for reasons you can't explain and have bought eight copies of it then this might be the setting for you They're going to be putting out two new books for this villain setting as part of this Kickstarter The first The Lost Lands of Orfal expands the cold dark Norse inspired setting featuring over 50 new
• 02:00 - 02:30 monsters in including the Dragger Jotin the Dragger Rottbringer and other Norse inspired monsters as well as two new classes for 5e One of which the Herald is this really cool warlock inspired spellcaster that kind of blurs the line between warlock and cleric because they call on the powers of the Acier the Vanir and bring prophecies of Ragnarok which they can choose uh as little augmentations for their for their character In fact if you check out their
• 02:30 - 03:00 Kickstarter page you can actually get a preview of a bunch of the new monsters and the full Herald class on that Kickstarter page Their second book At the Heart of Frost is an adventure book that brings the players from level three to level 12 It's about 250 pages At the Heart of Frost centers around two rival war bands who clash over a series of epic battles Players can experience the story from either side And we you know that we love a uh faction choosing which one is your ally and which one's your enemy sort of vibe So we love that Uh
• 03:00 - 03:30 and it provides the opportunity for multiple playthroughs because if the same group wants to play through it again and choose the other side they get to experience a whole different campaign You can follow links right down below to the Kickstarter campaign which is live on Kickstarter now And if you're an early backer you're going to get a free set of awesome dice So make sure to check the Kickstarter page to see all of the goodies that you can get for yourself And now let's start talking about the episode The first reason why you might want to ban multiclassing at
• 03:30 - 04:00 your table is because multiclassing in many regards can be a trap It can be too complex for new players and it's one of the few ways that you can actually mess up your character build Well a lot of the classes and subasses are designed in a way that is pretty hard to mess up When you get into multiclassing there is much more of a potential of choosing a bad multiclass that doesn't synergize well and therefore coming out with an
• 04:00 - 04:30 underpowered character at the table Players who have been playing for a long time and might know the ins and outs of the rules are more likely to use multiclassing to create a bigger difference between the ones who do not understand it and the ones who do We saw this really really clearly when we were doing our multiclassing tier ranking where we went by class by class and looked at every single combination that's possible There's a lot of just non-starters This is mostly because the way the ability score requirements stack
• 04:30 - 05:00 up meaning things like a paladin monk or a ranger sorcerer just have you putting so many ability score points in so many places to get 13s that you the minimum 13s you need that it really caps out the maximum potential of your character It spreads you so thin you you kind of end up a mile wide and an inch deep And overall Dn D 5e is a game that tends to reward characters being specialized
• 05:00 - 05:30 rather than versatile There's usefulness in having a wide range of skills to a certain point And there's certain character builds that are overwhelmingly versatile and able to play all the pillars of play but like it's a narrow subset of it And it's mostly about finding the ways to concentrate everything into one ability score or one or two ability scores and make one thing so good that it's amazing rather than trying to get like a bunch of different abilities from a bunch of different
• 05:30 - 06:00 places And so this means that majority of the options out there for multiclassing are actually detrimental to your builds whereas the small amount that are absolutely good can actually break the game in a lot of ways If you want evidence of how broken multiclassing can actually be uh you can check out Col's channel D4 D and D deep dive where he breaks the entire game specifically using multiclassing I heard
• 06:00 - 06:30 that Canadians are so nice No multiclassing Kelly we are officially broken up All right the illusionist wizard level one fighter Naturally in this respect um multiclassing ends up being pretty much a very classic noob trap It's it's an easy way to make your character strictly
• 06:30 - 07:00 weaker than they would have been if you weren't multiclassing But then if you know what you're doing you end up with this huge gulf in power And so if you have a mixed table of new players and experienced players and you have the new players kind of doing what they want to do and the experienced players doing what they know works you're really going to see the difference Yeah this is actually the case at my home game And this was actually something that I thought was kind of funny when we started writing this episode is at first
• 07:00 - 07:30 I was like "Ooh we're writing a pretty heavy take here." And then I was like wait I've been doing this for as long as I playing been playing D and D at my table Because at my table I have two players who are veterans of D and D They love reading the rule books and they understand every single thing that they read and they know how to build really optimal characters But I have three players who are pretty new to the game They've glanced through the rule book and they've picked the things that they like and they will continue picking the things they like and they're not interested in getting into that gritty
• 07:30 - 08:00 detail When I brought up multiclassing the three new players were like "I don't get it and I don't want to do it." Whereas the two veteran players were like "Oh yeah." And then I ended up being like "You know what just to make sure the party balance stays within a good location I'm going to say that nobody's allowed to multiclass." And everybody was on board with it And that's something we discussed in session zero But yeah this means that even the players who are just kind of playing the character that they want to play and not
• 08:00 - 08:30 really worrying about optimal builds and the ones who are still playing the character they want to play and doing the optimal builds though with them aren't that different We still have some powerful characters and some less powerful characters but everybody is having fun and feeling like they're really contributing I feel like by banning multiclassing in this way you achieve this kind of equalization amongst the you lower you you raise the floor and lower the ceiling Yes Right And so so it means that the the range of
• 08:30 - 09:00 character power that you obviously there's still a range of character power Like if if you're playing in a party where one player decides they want to play the Vengeance Paladin another one wants to play the Valorbard another wants to play the Divination Wizard uh or the Clockwork Soul Sorcerer and then another player's like I'm going to be a champion fighter uh you're gonna you're still going to unfortunately see see that but it's it's less pronounced than when you've got I am playing the the witch knight warlock uh the warlock
• 09:00 - 09:30 paladin multiclass and I'm trying to be a wizard druid Another major point about multiclassing is that so many of the classes in DND 5e are frontloaded They get their best abilities between first and third level If you're choosing a subclass you're getting a ton of your best features right away at third level And so this means that multiclassing uh has kind of lent itself over to what we call dipping where you just pick one to
• 09:30 - 10:00 three levels of a class to accentuate the class that you're playing We see this a lot with things like especially fighter I think is one of the biggest dips I think it's the ultimate dip Yeah And it's like oh I'm playing Xclass Name almost any of them I'm gonna take a few levels of fighter so that I can get action surge and second win and whatever else you can grab Weapon masteries of fighting style weapon proficiencies Um or maybe you you decide oh I'm playing a sorcerer or a paladin or a
• 10:00 - 10:30 bard I'm going to take two levels of warlock so I can get charisma based attacks and elders blast and all all that good stuff from those warlock levels Um or I'm just going to dip into sorcerer uh or dip into paladin as a sorcerer to get smites There's so many different ways that like just grabbing the early levels Cleric is another one where like just getting a few levels of cleric can get you the domain features and armor proficiencies and things like that very very very easily Um even I've
• 10:30 - 11:00 seen rogue dips are not unpopular to get cunning action Um or there of course there's also the problem of like the entire ranger class being like you've got everything there is to see here after sixth level And this is what happens with many classes is that the class progression is very fast over level 1 2 and three with a game doling out all these great features Then you get your feet Then you get your extra attack And then at level six you get your last subclass feature And then starting around level seven it starts to slow down So there's
• 11:00 - 11:30 this kind of mechanical incentive of like yeah you could take levels six seven you could take levels seven eight and nine in your current class or you could take levels 1 two and three of another class and get a massive power boost Uh this is this is a reason why people love multiclassing This is the reason why we love multiclassing We do a lot of videos about why multiclassing rocks But again if uh if you have one or two people who are choosing these front-loaded classes and combining them in a way that makes really really
• 11:30 - 12:00 powerful characters and you have other players at your table who aren't uh you've just created a huge imbalance Yeah And and I think one of the things we've noticed this in a very pronounced way because as you and I have started doing our own design especially subclass design and working on the apothecary class a conversation that we're constantly having when we're doing our design work is oh we can't give this feature to a character at level two or level three because people will multiclass into this and just nab it and combine it with other things What's
• 12:00 - 12:30 really interesting about that is when we put an amazing class at third level which we love to do people are like "What about multiclassing?" But then if we put the cool features at level 6 8 10 or whatever people are like "I have to wait that long to get my cool feature." It's a real wicked design challenge and and and the more I've spent working with the the the paradigm of of fifth edition whether 2014 or 2024 it's one of the things that frustrates me the most as I'm starting
• 12:30 - 13:00 to design classes and subasses and features for it So much so that one of the things that I've been tinkering with has been actually making new classes for fifth edition that are explicitly you can't multiclass these classes Yeah Because it's a better design space Yeah The next thing is that the requirements for multiclassing are actually quite trivial and the drawbacks are sometimes completely ignored And if
• 13:00 - 13:30 you are ignoring the drawbacks you're also not helping the case of it being a very overpowered feature So in order to multiclass you only need to meet an ability score requirement And ignoring this requirement is a very common house rule that has been made more popular by Bowlerskate 3 which also doesn't have this limitation And the the big drawback of multiclassing is that you lose out on those highle features Yeah But when most campaigns end by the mid levels and I
• 13:30 - 14:00 would even say a lot of capstone features for many classes aren't as good as the first second and third level features of other classes And so in a lot of cases yeah you might as well just forget the getting the capstone It doesn't matter because what you get from two or three levels of another class is just way better I I do think that that's really the case And I mean uh Balders's Gate 3 was an amazing game but I think that it set not great examples Yeah For
• 14:00 - 14:30 what table play should actually be paying attention to A lot of people went "Well Boulders Gate 3 didn't do it but in Boulders Gate 3 it's not a group of people around a table playing D and D It's a video game." And they they took different rules And you control the entire party You you control the entire party You can play with friends but like there's no DM who's trying to balance the game It's just like if you stomp that game then there's nobody's not having fun doing that Video games are are a place where where stomping the
• 14:30 - 15:00 competition and being overpowered and being broken is part of the fun Whereas at the table you actually don't want that to happen And Bulge Gate also magnifies the problem of like no justification is necessary for why your character multiclasses Yeah Whereas and not everybody plays like this but Monty and I are very narrative driven players We love telling a story When you're trying to come up with a story for your character I won't say that this is a bad
• 15:00 - 15:30 thing I actually think that some of the multiclassing opens up doors to incredible role playing and storytelling potential Oh yeah But that's if you know you're going to be making a multiclass right off the bat or if the story lends itself in a way that brings upon a multiclass I never knew that I was going to multiclass my sorcerer until we got to a moment in the story where my sorcerer made a deal with a demon and therefore multiclassed into warlock of the fiend pact which of course is like a
• 15:30 - 16:00 meta build Yeah But and but it was awesome because it was presented to me in the story Another one that I love is the paladin warlock For me I could set out from the get-go and say "Monty I want to play a paladin warlock." The story is that I am a paladin who swore an oath to a demon or I mean there are other warlocks out there Maybe I'm doing like a celestial warlock or something of that nature So you come up with that story first and your pact and your oath
• 16:00 - 16:30 are to the same entity and therefore it makes sense But if you're playing the holy warrior who then is like and I'm going to take a level a few levels of warlock and get the fiend packed and it's like what what um so you can do it for power and there are games out there who don't care and it's like just handwave it and whatever Well I think there's a classic example This has been many lampoon many times of like the wizard who's like I spent 25 years of my life studying to master a first level
• 16:30 - 17:00 spell and then the fighter multiglasses into wizard and it's like yeah it's just assume that I've been like looking over the wizard's shoulder for a couple levels and I picked up some magic like really really fast And like I I I mastered like this thing that took someone else 20 years to do in like you know 5 days of adventuring And I mean that's a little bit of the conceit of the level system Like you kind of have to just accept that that's kind of uh the the the the superpower of protagonists in fantasy stories is that they're able to level up rapidly Yeah Um and in a in a way that other people
• 17:00 - 17:30 can't like they're like insanely fast learners We just kind of accept that But it it is still the role playing conceit often is ignored And and I'm not saying that like you need to be a hardliner about it or overly draconian about it The inverse of this is like the the DM that is like no retraining no multi like like you can only if if the stars align ever do do this I think that's a little bit too harsh But I do think that there is is a bit of a nuanced position here
• 17:30 - 18:00 to to come into Um and I and I think that like with with all of these drawbacks as well you know the other thing that I'll throw out is that a lot of time a lot of times people get the multiclassing rules completely wrong too and they forget that things like they forget that things like extra attack doesn't stack They forget that things like unarmored defense doesn't stack they get the the way the spell casting levels stack up completely wrong and think that they can like Ballers Gate 3 had that bug in it and I'm not sure if they fixed it or not where you could
• 18:00 - 18:30 take one level of wizard and 10 levels of sorcerer but still learn fifth level wizard spells right right and a lot of people like have made that argument where they get the rule they're getting the rules wrong uh and thus multiclassing is becoming way more powerful than it than it should be the already potentially broken system of D&D 5e is being broken more by people ignoring the rules It's one of those things that if you are going to be using multiclassing you need to pay attention to the rules And in my opinion you need
• 18:30 - 19:00 to talk to your players about what the what the vision is Again I don't need the story and role playing to be topnotch My other character took levels of fighter as a rogue Why because I just said to Monty he's been in the battlefield now for like two years he's he's been a fighter uh more so than a rogue Uh like he picked up like he's now the a general a commander all of that So um it was that was my that was us having that little conversation and all it took
• 19:00 - 19:30 was a little conversation to say I think I'm going to take some fighter levels because X Y and Zed Um but I think you should have those considerations when you're playing these things And people still get tripped up like they like not only does the spell casting the way the spell casting level stack up trip people up people get tripped up by like the way the proficiency bonus still progresses they get tripped up by the way that feats uh progress and that the way that feats and ability score increases are based into your classes They get tripped up by um extra attack Like some people
• 19:30 - 20:00 house rule that like classes that both get extra attack stack for determining when you get extra attack Yeah And they don't there there's so many like weird broken things that where the restrictions matter they don't matter The drawbacks matter they don't matter People house rule this people house rule that And it it ends up with multiclassing being this like way better than it should be in some cases and way worse than it should be And it comes back right back to that noob trap problem Yeah Of people not getting the rules right And and here's
• 20:00 - 20:30 actually an important little history note And uh I will say that we are pretty sure that we're right on this This is what we have heard If we're wrong apologies But um it is my understanding that the multiclassing rules in 5e were actually uh created after everything else in the book So they created all the classes all the subasses and then afterwards they were like "Oh let's figure out multiclassing." And I do feel like 5e actually you can tell that that's the
• 20:30 - 21:00 case unfortunately And moving on to the next point though the thing is that like so many other systems know that this is a problem and have handled it in what I consider better ways Yeah I think this is the interesting where the the history intersects with a bunch of things because the multiclassing system that we have in D&D 5e is fundamentally lifting elements of the third edition multiclassing system where you what you
• 21:00 - 21:30 got to do was mix and match levels like you could take X levels in this class and X levels in this class whereas other systems have done different implementations of that where in fourth edition you couldn't do that in fourth edition instead if you wanted to multiclass you had to take a series of feats that would allow your character to access a limited number of powers and abilities of the class that you were multiclassing into It was a category of feats And this is something that Pathfinder second edition also did Yeah
• 21:30 - 22:00 And uh for me I actually I run a lot of monster of the week And in Monster of the Week you can't multiclass but what you can do is when when you level up at a certain point you can choose to take an ability from another class and just tack it onto your class Uh which I think is a cool option there And I mean Monster of the Week is also much lower in its ceiling for power Um you're not they're basically saying you can take
• 22:00 - 22:30 any power in the game and it's not going to break anything And that's true And a lot of the rules light systems have a method for doing this but their their floor and ceiling are so limited that it's just like it is what it is Well they don't have the the front-loaded class design right and and that's part of the thing that I think that you know fourth edition and Pathfinder second edition both are very aware of this is that they want characters to have these unique and iconic features that are classifying right away But they recognize that if you can just poach
• 22:30 - 23:00 that and pick and choose those things you can build this character that has all the defining features that are all the most powerful things right and I think that one of the interesting things that fifth edition did as part of the things that it exised out of third edition that was actually really important with the multiclass the way multiclassing worked in third edition Third edition had two things in the mix of multiclassing It had prestige classes which are not in which kind of
• 23:00 - 23:30 became the subclasses of fifth edition Yeah and it had a rule for multiclassing that was tied to XP where if you were multiclassing and you were trying to dip you would have an XP penalty So if your multiclass levels weren't kept within a certain number of levels of one another you would suffer an XP penalty and thus progress more slowly Now let's talk about be careful what you wish for uh scenarios here I mean the general consensus as is my understanding is that
• 23:30 - 24:00 when that was out when third edition was popular and people were like "Oh I multiclass but I get an XP penalty and so I'm now like a level or two behind the rest of the players people vocally hated that." Yes And the the thing with that was that the prestige classes ignored that rule Yeah Yeah So that's why everyone multiclassed using prestige classes Yeah But but here's the thing Now we're here and
• 24:00 - 24:30 looking at multiclassing in fifth edition You you mentioned that old rule and said "Yeah used to get a penalty to XP." Most of us use milestone leveling so it doesn't fully apply but I was like "Oh yeah leveling slower than everybody else for multiclassing is a perfect like it makes perfect sense." Yeah the third edition was the last edition that used XP as a resource like the wish spell cost XP to cast it You spent XP when you crafted magic items Um and you know
• 24:30 - 25:00 there was also level drain in in third edition as well And so a lot of people just didn't like that They didn't like the idea of characters like progressing unevenly or losing levels or spending XP I agree it's a little messy but in my head it was like oh that's that's a possible solution but it doesn't really work in fifth edition No And I understand why they got rid of it but it's like it actually makes sense that we need something to pull the reins on multiclass characters who are super powerful Well and the I think the intent
• 25:00 - 25:30 was supposed to be the ability score requirements Yeah Right That was supposed to be one of the stop gaps but the the issue is that what what the result of that was was that the the classes that synergize around the same ability scores got really really strong And like you don't that's why you don't see you know paladin monk builds very often Yeah And I mean on top of that classes like the fighter one of the best classes to dip into in fifth edition The prerequisite is a 13 in either dexterity or strength and either
• 25:30 - 26:00 and I think that's the key I think if fighter had just been strength people wouldn't be able to dip into it nearly as easily But the fact is that like anybody even spellcasters often want at least a 13 in dexterity to dodge fireballs and have a little bit of armor and whatnot So you I mean 2024 addressed the whole action search spell casting thing which is great Uh but yeah the dip is just so easily available And this is
• 26:00 - 26:30 the case again the synergy between oh I'm a charisabased whatever I can just grab paladin or warlock or sorcerer All of the charisma based classes gel really well together And uh there's like there's this weird thing that happens in fifth edition where charisma is the master ability score I would give that to dexterity And I would say that all the dexterity classes s like that's why rogue ranger is so good Fair dexterity
• 26:30 - 27:00 for combat and charisma for the the spell casting Uh those two things just combine in a way that like breaks multiclassing in my opinion So these are some of the strongest arguments that we have in favor of banning multiclassing But we wanted to ask one of multiclassing's biggest champions if he had any thoughts on why multiclassing should be banned All right a chance to defend myself Wait a sec Colby gives a point or two in
• 27:00 - 27:30 support of banning multiclassing Son of a Just kidding Seriously you guys make some great points And aside from making it a little easier for especially a newbie to not have to worry about all the thousands of options they might have to consider if multiclassing is on the table and the potential greater ease of character concept and story I think I'd add that allowing for multiclassing can potentially create problems at your table if one or more players are taking
• 27:30 - 28:00 advantage of it and one or more aren't Right if you have players who really love to minmax and optimize their characters and they're multiclassing to get a lot of like front-loaded power from two or three different classes it can create some serious power disparity at your table that might lead to some people feeling a little less effective and potent in combat And that could spoil the fun for them a bit No question And sure you could say the same thing for straight class optimizers versus straight class nonoptimizers right but I
• 28:00 - 28:30 think the potential power gap gets a little exacerbated if multiclassing is allowed That said I'll add one more reason why you might want to ban multiclassing at your table because straight classing makes your characters even stronger I mean what's the most powerful thing a character can do in Dn D everyone knows it's cast spells right and what happens when the wizard multiclasses they delay getting access to those higher level more powerful
• 28:30 - 29:00 spell options And sure while you might be glad to have constitution saving throw and armor proficiency and extra attack on your abjgeration wizard/ armorer artificer you're going to be pretty bummed when you hit level 17 and your ally gets the wish spell and you don't you know And while sure sometimes especially for marshall characters damage scaling might drop off a bit as you get higher level if you just stick straight class a lot of times multiclassing is going to cost you in
• 29:00 - 29:30 utility and survivability options that you might really need as the monsters you start fighting become tougher and meaner Let the increasingly amazing magic weapons you find do the heavy lifting of scaling your damage be grateful to pick up better survivability and utility by staying straight class because a dead barbarian does zero damage right and man would it suck to miss out on that level 20 barbarian capstone or fighter capstone or monk capstone So especially in campaigns that
• 29:30 - 30:00 go to high level depending on the character depending on the build you might actually enjoy more relative power by not multiclassing So sure DM force your characters to learn patience and reap the benefits of delayed gratification We love multiclassing It's fun Yeah And by and large I'll even say if you're not convinced by these arguments I'm not entirely convinced by them either
• 30:00 - 30:30 No And like I don't know if the like these reasons definitely give me pause But the fact is that I think the crux of this and I think I'm actually a great example for what this video is actually trying to say I love multiclassing I will happily multiclass my characters I will play at a table that multiclasses I think that most tables should include multiclassing At my own personal home game I saw the possibility of a power differential that was going to become
• 30:30 - 31:00 present in the player base that I had chosen to play at my table And because I knew the people at the table in session zero we laid out let's not include multiclassing to again as Monty elegantly put it raise the floor and lower the ceiling of the power curve at the table And that allowed all the players to feel like they were contributing So this isn't a video to say don't do multiclassing We do it all the time We love it We do it with most
• 31:00 - 31:30 of our characters What this is saying is that assess your table and decide if these points are valid for a reason why maybe you're you're you're given permission to say to your players I don't think multiclassing is going to work in this game Let's let's not use it Yeah Have that conversation in session zero Have that conversation with your table Know your players Know your table No when you know your players you know your table you can make that
• 31:30 - 32:00 decision with being informed of like why multiclassing can be a problem and knowing that yeah we know that these problems exist but we still think it's fun and still enjoy everything that multiclassing brings to the table because I think that all of these issues are not insurmountable right you just it just leads to overall a higher power level game puts a little bit more work on your shoulders as a DM to justify some storytelling stuff Uh if you if
• 32:00 - 32:30 that matters to you maybe it doesn't at all Um and like I've been playing with superpowered multiclass characters for like a decade now and I'm just kind of used to it It just definitely is one of those things that I think where it bothers me the most nowadays is from the design perspective I definitely feel like it's it's such a there's so many cool things that we could do in 5e if we didn't like and introduce them at early levels if we didn't have to worry about people just poaching them with multiclass I mean that's the thing that
• 32:30 - 33:00 we're not talking about because that's very niche to uh to designers But I will say that like I think that we could have way better design in 5e if multiclassing didn't exist But that feels like a whole other topic uh that the general audience might not care about But I just think it's an interesting point to bring up No it is I I think multiclassing is one of the reasons why we can't have nice things True True So if you have other thoughts on multiclassing if you disagree with all of this like you
• 33:00 - 33:30 you're you don't need to convince us that multiclassing is awesome We're here to raise awareness of the points that might you might want to consider when you're looking at multiclassing and how multiclassing is one of the elements of 5e that you should pay careful attention to when you're planning out your games And if you want to argue with us you can But if you just want to kind of go off in the comments about what multi what you like about multiclassing what you don't like about multiclassing has it
• 33:30 - 34:00 impacted your games have you tried running campaigns where multiclassing was not allowed and did you find that easier as a DM better as a player what was your experience like tell us all of that in the comments below The videos that we make on our channel are made possible thanks to the incredible generosity of our Patreon supporters Our patrons get some amazing benefits for signing up on our Patreon including early access to all of our videos one week before they drop here on YouTube as well as at our higher patron tiers access to awesome bonus game content and
• 34:00 - 34:30 things that are under development for our future publications You can join our patron and get on our patronon Discord server which is the best part of it all by following the links down below And if you want to see us uh multiclassing a whole bunch in an actual play series you can check out our games in the world of Dragonite uh which air Tuesday evenings right here on YouTube All the previous episodes are right up over here And we got plenty more coverage of D&D 5e and all those fun multiclass builds right up over here Please subscribe to our channel like this video and ring that
• 34:30 - 35:00 bell so that you never miss an episode Thanks so much for watching See you next time in the dungeon