CARTA: Birth to Grandmotherhood: Childrearing in Human Evolution--Closing remarks and QandA session

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Summary

The closing remarks and Q&A session at the CARTA symposium, "Birth to Grandmotherhood: Childrearing in Human Evolution" held by UCTV, involved insightful discussions about the challenges and transformations in human childrearing across time. The discussions spanned topics like oxytocin measurement difficulties across ethnic groups, the role of attachment styles in human and primate evolution, how cooperative breeding might have emerged in humans, and the impact of modern birth practices. Various experts highlighted the complexities and adaptations in human childrearing, emphasizing the significant roles of grandmothers and socio-ecological factors in our evolutionary path.

Highlights

Oxytocin measurement is complex, especially across different ethnic groups, and its role in birth-related emotional bonds needs more research 🤓.
Attachment styles observed in humans and primates show parallel evolutionary benefits, like secure attachment linked to healthy development 📚.
Theories on cooperative breeding suggest it might have roots around 1.8 million years ago, shaped by environment and societal needs 🦧.
Concerns about modern birth practices include high rates of C-sections and their effects on babies' microbiomes 👶.
The evolutionary role of grandmothers might have contributed to the advanced longevity and health past menopause 🚶‍♀️.

Key Takeaways

Oxytocin's measurement and its release patterns in people remain complex scientific inquiries 🤔.
Attachment styles are vital not just for human but also for primate evolution. Secure attachment plays a crucial role 🌐.
Cooperative breeding could have begun about 1.8 million years ago, influenced by fluctuating environments and social structures 🌍.
Modern birthing practices and reproductive technologies have changed drastically, posing potential long-term impacts on human health 🚼.
Grandmothers have played an essential evolutionary role, possibly influencing slower aging and prolonged health in post-reproductive years 👵.

Overview

The Q&A segment of the CARTA symposium opened a captivating discussion on the biochemical and evolutionary aspects of human childrearing. Panelists delved into how emotional bonds, like those facilitated by oxytocin, vary among different ethnic groups and how such findings are limited due to measurement difficulties. Additionally, debates ensued around how these emotional ties enhance parent-infant connections, noting the lack of comprehensive data across various cultures.

Further discussions explored the evolutionary significance of attachment styles not just in humans but also in our primate cousins. Speakers pointed out that secure attachment correlates with healthy offspring development in both groups. The conversation also drifted towards cooperative breeding concepts, theorizing how shared responsibilities in child rearing may have developed out of environmental pressures and social networking needs.

Lastly, the session addressed the significant impact of modern birthing practices on child development and health. Experts expressed concerns about increased intervention rates like C-sections and their ramifications on infants' microbiomes. Moreover, they highlighted the ancient yet indispensable role of grandmothers, suggesting that maternal contributions could have driven evolutionary benefits, including slower aging and prolonged post-reproductive health.

Chapters

00:00 - 00:30: Introduction of the session The chapter serves as an introduction to the session, setting the stage for what is to come. The mention of 'Music' suggests that the chapter might begin with musical elements, likely designed to engage or welcome the audience. However, specific content details of the introduction's focus and topics covered are not provided.
00:30 - 05:00: Discussion on oxytocin measurement across ethnic groups The chapter focuses on a discussion regarding the measurement of oxytocin levels across different ethnic groups. It suggests that there may be variability in how oxytocin is measured or expressed among these groups, which could have implications for research and understanding of oxytocin's effects. The conversation involves questions raised about the methodology and results from previous talks, particularly targeting Sue's expertise on the matter.
05:00 - 10:00: Attachment styles and their role in evolution The chapter explores attachment styles and their evolutionary role, with a focus on the biochemical underpinnings, particularly oxytocin. Key questions addressed include the measurement of oxytocin across different ethnic groups and whether its release is heightened in fathers during childbirth.
10:00 - 20:00: Impact of grandmothers in evolution This chapter discusses the challenges and complexities associated with measuring hormones, particularly oxytocin, in the context of studying the evolutionary impact of grandmothers. It highlights the limitations of current research due to the difficulties in hormone measurement and suggests that many questions in this research area remain unanswered.
20:00 - 30:00: Cooperative breeding and human evolution The chapter 'Cooperative breeding and human evolution' explores the physiological and social aspects of cooperative breeding in humans, specifically focusing on the hormonal changes experienced by fathers. It questions the measurement and research techniques used in studying this phenomenon, noting that some studies, especially those involving direct measurement during childbirth, are either lacking or poorly executed. The chapter highlights the release of oxytocin in fathers, particularly when they are present during childbirth, and mentions studies where fathers were measured interacting with their infants, which confirmed the release of this hormone.
30:00 - 45:00: Impact of cultural changes on evolution The chapter explores the impact of cultural changes on evolution, focusing on the complexities of conducting studies in this field. It highlights the challenges researchers face, particularly in Israel, due to the difficulty of integrating into people's personal lives and the rigorous Institutional Review Board (IRB) requirements. This makes understanding cultural influences on evolutionary processes a daunting task.
45:00 - 50:00: Conclusion and acknowledgments This chapter discusses the impact of different attachment styles, such as avoidant and anxious, on the evolution of primate and human culture. The discussion includes insights from studies conducted on chimpanzees, noting that even non-human primates can exhibit insecure attachments similar to those observed in humans. Kim and Mel contribute to the conversation, emphasizing the parallels in attachment behaviors across species.

CARTA: Birth to Grandmotherhood: Childrearing in Human Evolution--Closing remarks and QandA session Transcription

00:00 - 00:30 [Music]
00:30 - 01:00 so I I have some questions from uh the earlier um part of the the talks um and and a couple for Sue one of which
01:00 - 01:30 might just be a yes no question uh the yes no question is has oxytocin been measured across ethnic groups and let you yet say yes no to that but also uh has research shown the increased release of oxytocin in fathers attending childbirth um the ethnic group question
01:30 - 02:00 I my memory would only think of one which is africanamerican and it was a pain sensitivity study not good enough to answer your question the there's a huge issue around the measurement of oxto um many questions Remain the hormone is difficult to measure much more so than anyone anticipated and so almost every question you're going to ask me about
02:00 - 02:30 me things that involve measurement either hasn't been done or hasn't been done well okay now the second question was that that was too long an answer sorry the answer is was oh no increased release of oxytocin in Father's attending child birth I can't think of anywhere there's actually attending childb birth there are stimulation studies where fathers are measured with the babies and they do release oxytocin
02:30 - 03:00 at least in Israel okay and there might be others I can't remember I it's very difficult to get into people's lives to do these studies that we'd like to all know you know who's going to show up at the birth and with all the IRB requirements it's it's pretty daunting thank you and and a question that I think is for Kim uh but
03:00 - 03:30 Mel might also want to weigh in on this so Kim um Can anyone comment on the role of attachment styles for example avoidant anxious Etc in the evolution of primate and human culture so you can talk about chimpanzees Kim and maybe Mel do you want to climb in I actually did a study um with chimpanzees that were Nursery raised um and did find some were insecurely attached to their favorite
03:30 - 04:00 human caregiver um in terms of uh infants and their mothers I might argue that very very very few chimpanzee infants are um insecurely attached to their mothers but I don't have very much data to support that uh we have just done um with a graduate student at uh Georgia Tech a follow-up study on infants that from the nursery studies
04:00 - 04:30 were found to not be well attached to their favorite caregiver to have dysfunctional attachment and those infants that are classified with dysfunctional attachment disorganized attachment seem to have greater number of health problems as adults uh so there seems to be strong parallels in how well the attachment systems functioning and the long-term effects in chimpanzees as in humans
04:30 - 05:00 um but these were Nursery raised chimpanzees so their attachment systems already somewhat different than chimpanzees raised by their biological mothers thank you y so for for those who don't know the attachment uh categories are based on reunion behavior in the answorth strange situation that I showed some data from so the baby is left alone Alone by by herself or with a stranger
05:00 - 05:30 and then when when the mother comes back depending on the baby acts some babies just go right to the mother and and some uh uh avoid the mother and some show ambivalence and and the these are the the categories that the um the Disciples of of uh of Mary answorth came up with um and they're they're reproducible if if people are trained and watch videotapes so the question
05:30 - 06:00 is what would this mean for human evolution the the my answer is I don't think that this has ever been done well enough in uh hunting and Gathering societies uh I don't know about uh about non-humans um I don't know if it would come out the same way but based on on the fact that that um secure attachment which is the baby just you know goes to the mother and greets and and doesn't be become you know extremely clingy uh that
06:00 - 06:30 that that is is um related or predictable from the sensitivity of of of the mother's response or whatever the caregiver whoever the caregiver is in in the home setting before the testing is is done as the baby is uh is developing uh C certainly the Kung and
06:30 - 07:00 most hunter gatherers that I've ever heard about um have are on the highight on the high end of of of sensitive responding on the part of the mother and other caregivers so I guess I would have to predict that uh there would be very few babies that would not be securely attached but that's and that and that's the way uh in my view it's it's it's a big part of the way hum got through the the
07:00 - 07:30 challenges of our Evolution so um qu please Barry um rise up was was Allen nursing in a 70-year-old postmenopausal woman primarily a comfort measure or did the act of lactation occur I might you might not be able to answer that but you want to have a go
07:30 - 08:00 70 year old 70 year old post yes I mean that uh again my my wife is the one who work with this they have uh field sort of tests whether or not you have milk and she had them Express and that I mean that 70 year olds did not but but the you know 45 to 65 68 I mean did have um milk and milk with fat and so
08:00 - 08:30 this is a follow on for Katie who where are you Katie oh there you are uh which is um I don't know whether you can answer this but give it a shot how do postmenopausal women allopathic but anyway what by whatever means um actually produce milk yeah so that's a that's a really um it's a really good question and it's something that I've been wanting to talk to Barry about because
08:30 - 09:00 uh relactation in um in post-reproductive women is partly going to be an artifact that humans have post-reproductive females in in substantial numbers but how the how the hormonal Cascades that allow them to synthesize milk when they haven't gone through pregnancy is is really really interesting and I think in part there's still an open question in terms of how much milk the mammory gland is synthesizing so so yes they do have milk
09:00 - 09:30 present but in experimental work um with animals and then observational work with humans it's shown that relactation milk um or induced lactation um in the case of adoption and things like that generally is not sufficient to maintain infant growth velocity and so those mothers oftentimes are supplementing with formula or other foods and so there it seems to be some open question in in terms of milk production in the absence of having gestated and and reared their
09:30 - 10:00 own infant recently can't go okay but you need the microphone okay but you don't go anywhere um here's a question I don't know if you you know the answer but what do you think would be the answer in terms of milk composition for women caring fraternal twins right okay so this is this is a good one um in terms of how infant so we know we know some some really nice work by foresight and others in agricultural animal species that that when there's
10:00 - 10:30 twins the larger fetal placental unit um increases mammory gland development during pregnancy and those mothers are able to make a lot more milk to support those twins but what that means is that there's lots of data potentially out there where they they can empirically ask this question quite quickly but nobody's published it so there's a couple different things that could be happening in terms of how the fetuses are affecting the mammory so there could be something of a wash out effect where you have kind of a an an intermediate
10:30 - 11:00 set point in that mammory gland that's that's between a male and a female set point um it could be that it it oscillates between a female or male Optima um in part because of the hormones they're releasing during fetal life and and it's an open question right now okay you might not be able to go yet this is actually to you and Barry um and that is uh can you think of any immunological benefits to uh for Alam Alam maternal nursing so I I'm here closer but I I know Barry
11:00 - 11:30 will have some things to add to this um and absolutely so we know that the amuno factors that are present in milk are going to reflect the exposure history of the aloe mother or the aloe maternal lactator and when that exposure history is different between the infant's own mother they're basically getting a bonus dose of immune factors for other things that their mother may not have encountered and this becomes really really interesting in that Barry's work
11:30 - 12:00 shows that that paternal grandmothers are quite involved in Alo maternal nursing and so we'd expect a mother to have inherited antibodies that have been vertically transmitted between from her own mother right so you have that maternal lineage but now you're getting an even an additional additive lineage that seems to be something that's not found among other animals there actually more but I'll let you go um Kristen can you talk about the
12:00 - 12:30 common question I know that you get a lot and that is why did women's fertility drop in the first place at menopause why does it occur why Why didn't it just prolong with the prolonged life cycle right well well clearly I haven't been able to persuade um a lot of my colleagues but I I was trying to get you guys on the bus that if we actually look at the living hominids if we look across the great apes fertility ends at about the same age in all of us this this is a
12:30 - 13:00 a feature that goes with being the kind of animal we are and what changed in our lineage was it looks like slower aging and a lot of the rest of the physiology with ovarian aging not changing and we have a few data sets that you know are are quite consistent with that again fertility if if it's if you can manage to keep a a a female chimpanzee alive and even in captivity it's difficult into indor 40s that's in general they're
13:00 - 13:30 really old females uh but it is possible to keep them alive and they um go through menopause and and in the wild uh ages again at last birth I could show you figures the few females who are able who are still robust enough to be alive then are um having their last births uh in their early 40s so this thing about having last births in the the 40s seems
13:30 - 14:00 to be the deal for uh us but Weir the thing that's different about us is that we you know here I am we are still able to walk and chew gum and so on all this stuff after menopause we as I said in this hza and and Hilly's data shows this as well in in human populations if you make it to adulthood and you're and you're female your chances of living beyond that are way better than even so
14:00 - 14:30 if if I can persuade you that that's what happened the the kind of modeling that we've been doing shows that if it's the case that we've got this conserved pattern of when fertility ends you know clearly it can change if if you're a macac you go through menopause at 25 so it's different in the in the in the great apes but it's the same in all the living great apes including including us what's different is the other stuff and
14:30 - 15:00 grandmothering could account for what actually was behind this shift in in the way we age in a lot of the rest of our our physiology so I I if I does that sound like I'm avoiding the question my I'm trying to suggest that we have a long history of posing the question the wrong way for good reason George Williams I should probably stop here but I can rant about this for hours George Williams in his 57 paper so important in
15:00 - 15:30 laying out a basic way of thinking about aging and how in the world you know given uh that that natural selection ought generally to favor anything that increases you know survival in reproduction why is aging a thing that we see in in all kinds of living organisms you know not just us but you had a maybe a puppy when you were a little kid and that dog got old and died before you were even an adult that this aging thing is a thing that is a
15:30 - 16:00 characteristic of being certain kinds of animals you know there are a few living things that don't age but that's very rare uh but but Williams in his um 57 paper said well uh yes I here are the ways we can understand why natural selection is going to result in aging as the force of selection is necessarily going to decline across a adulthood it's
16:00 - 16:30 going to mean that um the the things that are fa that give you a greater chance of being productive when you're young even if there's a cost later they're going to be favored and things that impose a cost later uh are are going to be disfavored um even if provide an advantage later on are going to be disfavored if they impose a cost early and then he said uh okay so
16:30 - 17:00 this uh Theory suggests that there should never be such a thing as post reproductive period in the lifespan of the normal lifespan of any living thing what about women and then he talked about menopause in a way that was really interesting and persuasive and said well you know there's look at our Evolution when to start it out talking about all the difficulties with birth if we look at what was happening birth got
17:00 - 17:30 more difficult and uh as that was happening we had kids that were more dependent that ought to mean that if there was any tendency maybe not to have that last risky baby because it might kill you and if it did the kid would die too so better not to do that uh and to stop early so this view that menopause is quote stopping early is uh has fueled a lot of work work on the question and
17:30 - 18:00 and I'm I'm arguing that if we look at the data from the perspective that seems to really have legs we don't stop early we actually don't stop early we we we're we're we stop at at the age that is is characteristic of the radiation we're part of sorry for the sermon you all want to hear from some more from her yeah let's hear some more for her so here's here's a another common question if it's so great for humans why don't chimpanzees and gorillas have grandmas
18:00 - 18:30 right right yes so I I think I gave this very short shrift but it here hilly and I are almost on on the same page the the kind of argument that that that my colleagues and I have been favoring for a long time is an ecological one that that the sorts of circumstances that that characterized the uh what our uh ancestors were facing and what what gave rise to the evolution of our pus was one in which certain
18:30 - 19:00 kinds of foods with these spreading savanas were becoming less available and if Mom stayed in those environments then there's the problem that there are things that are really productive that you could acquire but little kids can't do it so you could follow the forest and stay chimpanzee or gorilla and and all those things but if you stayed in the other environments then those little kids would have to have help and and
19:00 - 19:30 if that starts to happen then this window opens for nonmaternal contributions it's not just mother's milk anymore it's something else and that's an opportunity for older females whose fertility is ending to make this novel contribution to their Fitness and and models you know plenty of models show that if that's the case it's why indeterminant
19:30 - 20:00 Growers age so much more slowly if there's something you can do later in life that's going to enhance your Fitness and there's a real bonus on getting there and and so aging slows and and grandmothering is a thing that you can do for your Fitness if you live long enough you can't there's nothing that a chimp now I have to retract that actually we we do anecdotal examples in
20:00 - 20:30 chimpanzees of of grandmothering grandmothers having important effects on on the welfare of their daughters but but what's happening in general in chimpanzees is the kinds of foods everybody's eating the juvenil can handle on their own and of of course if you're a gorilla it's the salad bowl the juveniles can handle on their own and so the sort of environment in which uh resources that really pay off if you
20:30 - 21:00 can't afford to live on them that's the Cradle of our genus that's what was happening in the plyto scene in in in ancient Africa and that's that's where we come from can you do one more sorry I didn't write these um but the question is in a lot of these discussions of grand uh parenting does it matter whether it's the maternal grandmother or the paternal grandmother
21:00 - 21:30 right well we we saw lots of data in which it does and and this is so interesting how variable this is how you know in some circumstances paternal grandmothers can actually be harmful uh so these data sets really get to be interesting and all of this depends on the on the socioecology just like mothers can be dangerous as as as Sarah was laying before us um it it depends on what what uh what the allocation problems are
21:30 - 22:00 um I it is of Interest certainly to me and my collaborators in in trying to build some of these models that that the that the the Peter Kim's agent-based model that I was talking about does not restrict helpful grandmothers to only helping their daughter's Offspring it does not make that restriction and grandmothering takes off in in the way
22:00 - 22:30 that I showed you so yes I I think the answer is it does seem to matter the way it matters varies with socioecology there's this fascinating stuff suggesting that that the X chromosome makes a difference so this pattern data set suggesting where there are historical data in these populations that that that a woman um passes on her ex chromosome to both her sons and her daughters her daughters daughters are
22:30 - 23:00 going to get that chromosome because they get it from their mom her sons sons are going to get a wife from their dad so they have nothing no um ex chromosome from their grandmother and and it's possible to to order the grandchildren in terms of their the sex of the linking parent and the sex of the grandchild in terms of the probability of whether they share an act and it
23:00 - 23:30 looks like there is a correlation between the kind of effect grandmothers have on the survival of those grandchildren I'm still astonished at that result um and whether there's some other reason that we haven't really figured out why it shows up but the short answer is yes it does seem to matter and and it depends on the socio echology thank you you can sit down now um I've got a question for Sarah um
23:30 - 24:00 they kind of a couple of questions maybe you can address both of them um are you willing to speculate about when Cooperative breeding really began and took off in humans and do you think it's linked with the theory some aspects of the theory of mind yes I think it's linked to aspects of the theory of Mind other going to start with the second one first other chimpan other other Apes have
24:00 - 24:30 rudimentary theory of mind for sure uh it's a question of having it expressed more in humans the first question is much harder uh when do I think Cooperative breeding first emerged in the hin line um very conservatively in a 2009 book mothers and others The evolutionary origins of mutual understanding I put it at 1.8 million years uh just
24:30 - 25:00 because I thought the proposal at that time was already outrageous enough that I wouldn't you know I wouldn't push my luck um but um there there are people who would push it back further um but what I want to add is that one reason I like the notion of homins adopting cooperative breeding and the idea that
25:00 - 25:30 this was an important component in quote becoming human uh is that you don't need to invoke any kind of special circumstance you don't have to think that we are exceptional in that sense because really many many species although it's an uncommon breeding system many species have evolved breeding systems where you have
25:30 - 26:00 Alo parental care and provisioning in addition to maternal care or parental care um about 10% of the species of birds that are out there of 10,000 species of birds have Cooperative breeding um the figure you hear for humans is 3% it's probably higher um there's lots of Cooperative breeding out there and what really interests me is that work by Jets and Rubenstein and some of
26:00 - 26:30 the other ornithologists a lot of our theories about Cooperative breeding come from Ornithology but have shown that species bird species are more likely to evolve Cooperative breeding if they're living in Savannah environments with very fluctuating ecological systems in particular EC uh fluctuating rainfall and fluctuating food resources which of course is precisely you heard Richard pots talking at CA a few sessions ago is
26:30 - 27:00 precisely uh the set of ecological circumstances were that were weighing very heavily on our early Pine ancestors uh extraordinary fluctuations in rainfall very unpredictable food resources periods of kind of unpredictable famine uh this is the kind of thing that gives you Cooperative breeding and rubenstein's work uh he started out looking at um uh Savannah
27:00 - 27:30 starlings and um looking at them in the desert and in the forest and in the savanas and the ones that evolve Cooperative breeding were all the Savannah dwellers Cooperative breeding in a um a kind of species with mixed hunting and Gathering which is what humans have also what species like there are some other cooperatively breeding pre mates and they're in the the subf family catric
27:30 - 28:00 these 35 species of marmosets and tamrind they too are voracious Predators who combine that with um extractive foraging they have a very human there's a long list of traits in common between these tiny little small brain South American monkeys and humans um in other words you don't need big brain to become a Cooperative breeder um but you do need
28:00 - 28:30 to be in a certain with a certain history of sociality in a certain kind of ecosystem and humans fit the bill pretty well and then this one is for Sue but I think a lot of uh the speakers could actually address this um it seems to me that a lot of our um evolved capacities however you want to think about this including the availability of oxytocin this is why it's directed to sue um for bonding for mother infant relationships
28:30 - 29:00 father infant relationships and so on it seems like a lot of these are really being challenged by contemporary at least us uh cultural changes um where babies are separated at Birth and all the things that we're so familiar with what would you be willing to speculate about the future of uh particularly uh parents and uh and other and people raising uh children and so on in in context of this curent you sort of answered the question for me I believe
29:00 - 29:30 we are in the largest uncontrolled experiment in human history is going on today it really started about a hundred years ago and it picked up momentum couple of times in recent times we are we've changed the birth practices we no longer 50% of the babies born in the United States are born through induction or augmentation with oxytocin this has consequences for The Offspring and probably the mother oneir of the babies I hate to be so US based
29:30 - 30:00 but that's where I know the numbers onethird of the babies born right now are C-sections uh we are just gone wild we've course got we have reproductive technology we have no idea of the consequences of invitro fertilization or almost anything we're doing in some ways there are two I think reasons for this one is that we found out how to do stuff
30:00 - 30:30 and so why not okay the other is that there are separations of disciplines and those separations have allowed us to move forward so obstetric works almost independently of Pediatrics which has is these two don't even hardly inform each other there's a new fetal medicine there are people trying to get into that space But The Baby the minute it's born it's handed to one kind of doctor and
30:30 - 31:00 whatever was done by the guy or woman beforehand is sort of irrelevant I mean I can this is the thing I am most concerned about right now in the world we are taking babies out of their uh microbiome by C-sections we are changing them in that way and almost everything when anyone looks carefully they find that they have made long-term changes sometimes subtle but it's it is the human in my
31:00 - 31:30 opinion has a lot of ability to be variable to respond very adaptively we we are here in part because of this amazing capacity to adapt to multiple kinds of environments so we will not be defeated by these changes but we will be changed okay all right thank you all for for uh staying through this uh wonderful Symposium it's it's my role to to call it to an end and um I'd like to start by
31:30 - 32:00 giving a big thanks to Wenda and Kristen for putting together a remarkable uh group of people who come from different disciplines and gave us a flavor of of the uh state of their art and I think we're walking away with a it was a great ending by the way Sue the way you sort of pulled us together there but it did it did bring it together and I think we're walking away with a better sense of the importance of childhood from from many different directions and in um and
32:00 - 32:30 using many different species and many many different uh uh organisms in order to get an insight into it but it does feel like we're at the beginning of this area even though it feels like we've been thinking about this for a long time it's it's coming together in some in a coherent way that I think is going to be very uh very exciting for the future so first of all I want to thank you two for putting together a terrific program and
32:30 - 33:00 uh the second uh thing I get to thank is the people that have have uh have supported this Carta for so many years now and uh we have Jim handlan here from the matters Foundation Anette Merill Smith and I I don't know if reita is still here or not but uh and and others and I I while they have been strong supported for some period of time I would encourage others that have the capacity to support C and we want to keep this thing going we want your
33:00 - 33:30 resources your foot on the ground be here and contribute and give good ideas for for next meetings so thanks the thanks very much to the supporters for keeping us going and and and finally just want to thank the rest of the Carta organization the people that are here and have uh been with us for the very for a very long time and particularly Linda Nelson who's really done a great job to organizing this
33:30 - 34:00 meeting and and with that I want to thank you all and have a have a wonderful day bye [Music]