Navigating the Boardroom Shift

CFO 4.0 Podcast | 211. CFO Stories CFO to NED: Strategic Growth and Leadership with Alwyn Jones

Estimated read time: 1:20

Summary

In this insightful episode of the CFO 4.0 Podcast, Alwyn Jones, Group CFO at Luno and a newly appointed Non-Executive Director (NED), shares his journey and the strategic shifts involved when transitioning from CFO to NED. Hosted by Hannah Monroe from itas solutions, this episode delves into the evolving dynamics of board meetings, the delicate balance of responsibilities between executive and non-executive roles, and the strategic foresight required in today's fast-paced financial landscape. Alwyn discusses the joy of seeing a company evolve, the importance of board dynamics, and the skill of maintaining strategic alignment across varying business models. Filled with personal anecdotes and professional insights, this episode is a must-listen for finance professionals aiming to broaden their perspectives and enhance their strategic impact.

Highlights

Alwyn shares the excitement and challenges of being both a CFO and a NED. 🎢
Discovering the strategic role of a NED and how it differs from his CFO duties. 🤔
Insights into the board dynamics and the importance of strategic alignment. 🧠
Alwyn emphasizes the importance of networking in securing his NED position. 🤝

Key Takeaways

Becoming a NED requires strategic thinking and patience. It's a marathon, not a sprint, so choose opportunities wisely. 🏃‍♂️
Balancing executive and non-executive roles offers a unique perspective that enhances both positions. 🎭
Understanding board dynamics is crucial for effective strategy alignment and decision-making. 🧩
Networking is key to securing NED roles and enriching one’s professional journey. 🌐

Overview

The episode kicks off with a warm reintroduction of Alwyn Jones, who shares his exciting journey from being a CFO at Luno to embracing the role of a Non-Executive Director (NED) at SteadyPay. This move highlights his strategic foresight and willingness to broaden his professional horizons, providing valuable insights into how such transitions are more nuanced than they appear.

Alwyn delves into the distinct responsibilities of a NED compared to those of a CFO. He explains how the NED role involves strategic oversight without getting bogged down in day-to-day operations. He also talks about the importance of providing perspective and challenging the CEO to ensure alignment with strategic goals, which he finds invigorating and challenging at the same time.

The conversation also covers the dynamics within board meetings, stressing the importance of understanding different perspectives. Alwyn discusses how he applies his experience in boardrooms to enhance strategic decisions and the significance of networking. By blending these experiences, he effectively bridges the knowledge from his CFO role to his contributions as an NED, offering a holistic view on leadership and strategy.

Chapters

00:00 - 00:30: Introduction and Podcast Overview The chapter introduces the podcast 'CFO 4.0', focusing on the evolving role of the CFO from merely a cost controller to a strategic visionary. It emphasizes the opportunities presented by this transition and aims to assist listeners in capitalizing on these changes to advance their careers and lead confidently. The chapter also introduces Hannah Monroe, the Managing Director of a financial transformation consultancy called itas, who will be conducting interviews.
00:30 - 01:00: Introducing the Guest: Alwyn Jones In the episode titled 'Introducing the Guest: Alwyn Jones,' the podcast CFO 4.0 welcomes back Alwyn Jones as the guest. Alwyn Jones, known to long-term listeners, is the Group CFO. The episode offers real-world advice and guidance on transforming processes, people, and data.
01:00 - 02:00: Non-Exec Director Role at Steady Pay The chapter discusses the return of a guest, Alwin Luno, who has previously been on the show. Alwin returns to talk about his progress and new ventures since his last appearance. The host expresses gratitude and humorously mentions that Alwin was not scared off from returning.
02:00 - 03:00: Responsibilities of a Non-Exec Director This chapter discusses the role of a non-executive director, focusing on the transition and responsibilities involved. It begins with an explanation by an individual who has served as a CFO and has now embraced the role of a non-executive director. The discussion highlights the balance and differences between being a CFO and a non-executive director. Emphasizing on the experiences, perspectives, and motivations that led to taking up this role, the chapter aims to provide insights into the challenges and potential growth associated with such positions in the corporate governance landscape.
03:00 - 04:00: Decision to Become a Non-Exec Director The chapter discusses the decision to become a Non-Executive Director for a promising company called Steady Pay. Steady Pay operates in the gig economy space and focuses on lending and credit building. The company is regulated by the FCA and has ambitious growth plans.
04:00 - 06:00: Challenges and Surprises in the Role The chapter titled 'Challenges and Surprises in the Role' discusses various aspects of managing finances and the innovative tools designed to assist consumers. The narrator highlights the embedding of Finance as a service in different sectors, emphasizing its cutting-edge nature. The narrator, who has been involved for two years, expresses enjoyment of the experience while suggesting some uncertainty about the future.
06:00 - 08:00: Aligning Business Priorities and Challenges The chapter discusses the responsibilities and expectations of a non-executive role, emphasizing the difference in perspective and contribution compared to executive roles. It reflects on how this change can be refreshing and offer new insights into aligning business priorities and challenges.
08:00 - 10:00: Importance of Strategic Focus as CFO and NED The chapter titled 'Importance of Strategic Focus as CFO and NED' emphasizes the distinct role of board members in shaping the strategic direction of a company. It outlines how board members, including CFOs and Non-Executive Directors (NEDs), are not involved in the everyday running of the business. Instead, their responsibility is to guide and challenge the CEO to grow the business, offering insights and strategic direction rather than day-to-day operational analysis. This requires taking a step back and maintaining a broader perspective to effectively contribute to the company's long-term success.
10:00 - 12:00: Advice and Experience Sharing as NED This chapter focuses on the role of a Non-Executive Director (NED) in offering advice and sharing experiences based on a unique time-lapse perspective of the business. Unlike executive roles where individuals are deeply involved in the day-to-day operations, NEDs participate intermittently, often through board meetings or one-on-one sessions with the CEO. This occasional engagement allows them to observe the business with a degree of detachment and clarity that those immersed in daily operations, like CFOs, may lack. The primary responsibility of a NED is to provide valuable insights and a broader perspective to the executive team, helping them see issues or opportunities that might be overlooked in the midst of daily challenges.
12:00 - 15:00: Finding the Right Non-Exec Role and Networking In this chapter, the focus is on understanding the role and responsibilities of a non-executive position. It highlights the importance of representing investors' interests and holding the CEO accountable for the business's vision and operations. The chapter discusses the challenges new non-executives face in learning boundaries, emphasizing that their role is to question and evaluate the business plan's execution rather than directly fixing issues.
15:00 - 17:30: Balancing Challenges and Relationships This chapter explores the themes of addressing challenges and maintaining relationships. The speaker discusses the evaluation of progress in dealing with issues and whether the pace and direction of these efforts are appropriate. They reflect on their decision-making process for pursuing certain opportunities, explaining that it was a deliberate choice aimed at broadening their perspective. The speaker mentions their extensive experience in board roles during their tenure as a CFO, indicating a planned move to expand their horizons.
17:30 - 20:00: CFO and NED Role Dynamics and Benefits The speaker discusses their future career aspirations, particularly focusing on transitioning into semi-retirement. They express a desire to develop a portfolio career as a non-executive director (NED) in their later years, which they believe will allow them to stay engaged and 'useful.' They emphasize the importance of starting this transition early, as the experiences and insights gained from holding a NED position can positively influence their current role as a Chief Financial Officer (CFO), and vice versa. The speaker acknowledges the distinct skillset required for a NED role compared to their day-to-day responsibilities.
20:00 - 24:30: Conclusion and Contact Information This chapter emphasizes the importance of gradually developing different skill sets and perspectives over time. It suggests starting with one focus area and then broadening gradually, as mastering new organizational roles and responsibilities takes time. The chapter also highlights the significance of being selective when choosing roles, especially for non-executive positions. The author's advice from various non-executives is that the first non-executive role one assumes can significantly shape the types of roles they will undertake in the future.

CFO 4.0 Podcast | 211. CFO Stories CFO to NED: Strategic Growth and Leadership with Alwyn Jones Transcription

00:00 - 00:30 welcome to CFO 4.0 the future of Finance the CFO role is changing rapidly moving from cost controller to strategic Visionary and with every change comes opportunity we are here to help you take advantage of this transition to win at work drive your career forwards and lead with confidence join Hannah Monroe managing director of itas a financial transfer consultancy as she interviews
00:30 - 01:00 key experts to give you real world advice and guidance on how to transform your processes people and data welcome to CFO 4.0 the future of Finance so hello everybody and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0 now I'm very pleased to announce that on today's episode we actually have a returning guest so you long-term listeners will remember our Jones who is the group CFO
01:00 - 01:30 of luno who has come back on to talk to us about you know how things have progressed and also some some new adventures that he's been embarking on in the interim um and so if you haven't listened to episode then please do go back and have a listen but firstly I just want to say a big welcome thank you alwin I must have not have scared you off the first time round is all I have to say no thank you it's great to be back Hannah and um I really looking forward to it so yeah no you not scared me off not
01:30 - 02:00 try hard on that so so one of the things I was Keen to talk to you about is obviously um you know over the last few years you've become not just obviously you're not just a a CFO for for Luna but you're also a non-exact director so you want to tell us a bit about about that role and and what that involves yeah sure so I was never just a CF um as we all know but the non-exact director role something I've been toying with for a while and actually um it took
02:00 - 02:30 a bit of time to come to fruition and we can talk about that uh but it's it's a really nice exciting uh little company uh the CEO will not thank me for calling that because obviously it has Grand Ambitions um but it's company called steady pay and they're FCA regulated and their product is based around lending for the gig economy um but also those trying to build credit uh and access the
02:30 - 03:00 financial system so it provides a series of tools that help you manage your money uh as well as Landing facilities and the credit engine so it's it's a really interesting space uh that's working towards embedding Finance as a service in lots of different aspects of it so uh it's really quite Cutting Edge in how Consumer Finance is is working uh and it's been a lot of fun so I'm two years in uh I'm hoping it will carry on for a bit longer we'll see um maybe not after
03:00 - 03:30 this podcast I don't know I felt too many too many issues uh but uh yeah it's it's uh it's been a refreshing change in just a very different perspective and and talk to us about you know what does the role of a a non-exact look like you know we in terms of what does the I guess the day job um if you want to P it that what does that involve and and what's the expectations of you um so critically it's your not it's
03:30 - 04:00 not about running the business uh and that's the first thing to understand you're on the board uh you get to see everything uh but you're there to help shape the Strategic direction of the company and help the CEO grow the business and challenge what he's doing so you can't sit there and go well I need this analysis and this is what you're going to do uh and all the things you do in your day job your job is actually to be taking that step back and because you see the
04:00 - 04:30 business occasionally or you know monthly when you have the board meetings or when you have a one toone with the c CEO you're seeing it in this kind of time lapse which is a really valuable perspective because actually when you're in it and we've all being there in exact roles and particularly CFOs are vulnerable to this you can't see what's in front of your face because you're just in it all the time so really your job is to provide that perspective um
04:30 - 05:00 and really represent the investors as well who have put the money into this business and hope to receieve a return from it so you're really holding the CEO to account for the vision he sold to investors and how he's running the business so it is very different um it can be a bit more sporadic and it's very difficult to learn where the boundaries are sometimes I think for lots of people uh because you want to get on and do and if you see things that need fixing you want to fix them that's not your job your job is just to question how well the plan is going and uh how they're
05:00 - 05:30 approaching their issues and are they moving quickly enough and in the right direction and and what made you decide to to look at this is this always been a long-term ambition or is it something where the opportunity came up and you just decided to to jump on it and go for it uh it was it was a planned move so I always viewed this as something that would help broaden out my perspective so obviously I've been involved on boards in all of my CFO roles um and it's
05:30 - 06:00 definitely an area I want to progress into maybe in semi-retirement in my dotage I'll acquire a a plural you know sort of portfolio and and work my way around that way and still try and be useful um hopefully not till many years hands but it's important to start early I think because it helps with the feedback to the day job so what I learned from being a non-exec I can bring back to my day job and vice versa um but it's also so a different skill
06:00 - 06:30 set and a different set of perspectives that you need to develop and that takes time so starting with one and moving on gradually over time is clearly part of it uh and then the other aspect is it can take quite some time particularly if you're you should be being a bit picky about which one you go for so the advice I got from lots of non-exec I spoke to was your first non-exec role kind of defined the type of roles that you do
06:30 - 07:00 right uh and for me it really came down to a choice of two types of things so one was lots of bank or financial institutions roles uh given my background that monzo and Barkley's and my regulatory experience that was a natural fit and the other was fintech which given monzo and luno was also a natural fit uh and there's pluses and minuses to both of those uh Banks tend to pay cash in Tech to pay shares um
07:00 - 07:30 which do you want that's a different question um the maturity of the board you're joining a bank or a building Society will have lots of nonexact directors people who are very experienced that's great you can learn from them but your impact may be a bit smaller fintech very small boards so in my case it's four people CEO two investors and me so I'm the only independent exact um
07:30 - 08:00 and that that changes the dynamic so it's really about what you want to get from it and what kind of portfolio you want to build and I think is worth taking the time so I was probably in the market or looking for a couple of years before I found sort of right fit uh and that's where that opportunity came along and as you say jumped on it um but it did take some thought and it's not something you do overnight and if you're going to dive into it you can probably do
08:00 - 08:30 one uh and so picking the right one and what experience you're going to get from it and what you can add to the company is really really important to understand and was there anything that surprised you once you went into the role was there anything that was a bit of a oh I didn't expect this whether that's in terms of the role the expectations of you you know was there any surprises uh I think the first surprise makes that sound like there were many
08:30 - 09:00 there were a few but not that many um I think the first surprize was it was new for me but it was also new for them uh so I remember emailing John quite early on after we'd shaken hands we'd agreed everything I said great can you give me the board dates for next year went probably ought to have some shouldn't we and then set off his head of Finance going we put some board dates in yeah because it had just been meeting when they needed to on an ad hoc basis
09:00 - 09:30 uh and so putting some of that rigor together you know what is the financial reporting that the board sees how do we talk about the key metrics um that transition from well we're going to throw up the management accounts that we Ed to run the business and that's what we're going to talk to the board about but actually boards want to see different things and that might be aligned with their concerns and how they're thinking about the problem of how do we grow this business and that may not be what you
09:30 - 10:00 want to be showing them uh so all of that was a little bit of strip back to complete Basics and let's start from scratch here yeah um I think the second surprise was where I spent a lot of my first year was really getting alignment with the investor directors and the CEO on where we wanted to take the business and what needed to happen for the next funding round um so it was very
10:00 - 10:30 unclear because no one has actually sat down and said this is what we need to achieve right um and so you'd have a board meeting and it would be we need to focus on this particular area of the business and then the next board meeting would be something completely different and all the time the business is burning money at a very sedate rate um that's not to say no one was managing the process I think they actually manage it quite tightly uh but what was really going to make the difference and what was most important for the next
10:30 - 11:00 round of funding coming through and that turned out to be path to profitability so getting everyone aligned on that and this was the objective and what would need to happen in order to make that more likely than not which included some tough people decisions I spent most of my first year getting everyone to agreement to that space and we've now done most of that and the business is pretty close to profitable I think it should be this month or at least at the point where it's a choice um and that's great because it means is now master of
11:00 - 11:30 his own destiny yeah and it's really about how do you grow the business or maximize the value from um you whatever options are on the table at that point but you can pick and choose rather than we need money by this date all this business isn't going to exist that's a much healthier place for everyone but particularly the CEO to be yeah and there's been a lot of that I think within within All Tech not just fintech over the last year or two with been a difficult time
11:30 - 12:00 a lot of so that yeah how do you eek out that cash Runway and uh and push it further so so so you know we we talked about there were a few surprises so that was surprise number one what were the other surprises as you went into that role um I think the other one was the tension between essentially two business Lines within the business um so you have
12:00 - 12:30 the business has two models one's direct to Consumer one is partner development to then sell to Consumers um and It's tricky because over different time Horizons you want different priorities so business customers take time to integrate to on board once you've got them though your volumes are quite large and it's a root to reasonable scale um direct to Consumer you can just build with marketing I say just it's an L right there's a lot that work needs to go into that um uh and probably you want to then get
12:30 - 13:00 both of these feeding off each other so that actually the business grows in a in a you know virtuous cycle but which do you pick particularly when you're talking about a company that you can fit entirely company in a room of 10 15 people and where are you going to put your priorities uh and what metrics do you want to move because getting one or two business Integrations is fantastic and people will get very excited about that
13:00 - 13:30 equally they want to see the curve of users going up and if that's not going up as rapidly as you think it needs to then you've got a problem and it's really almost what's the investment Fe is going to be and what's going to drive the maximum value and articulating that priority was another set of keyboard decisions which I can't say I I think we we got to together but that was absolutely key of we will do this first and then focus on the second
13:30 - 14:00 um and where were we going to put the scarce number of heads and marketing dollars that needed to be against it and that was quite an existential choice and because the business is so small compared to the businesses that I think of are small and Scrappy but that I joined which could have multiple priorities uh it it it's a really difficult one and you can't know that you've got it right until two or three years down the track at which point maybe too late so getting that Clarity
14:00 - 14:30 was another surprise in the sense of it wasn't a single product business and we need to think about it in that way and shed a light on that priority core yeah and I guess from as well from what you're saying as well is figuring out how to prioritize based on the size of the business as well maybe a different size to what you're used to working with and adjusting to to that that sort of scale as well and more
14:30 - 15:00 limited information right because they don't have 15 people in finance churning out reports and Commercial analysis right they you've got the head of finance and that's it yeah um and you know he's one person and he's also trying to pay the bills get the accountants signed off make sure we don't miss any invoices negotiate debt funding which they need to run their main lending model uh so the time he's spending on strategic analysis or board papers is Tiny it should be um so again
15:00 - 15:30 you don't have a pleer of information to say right let's really dive into the UN economics of each of these um you have to make sure you're actually cutting your cloth and saying this is what we need and you know how much of your experience of a CFO was a real strength and how much of it led you down a bit of a garden part sometimes and into the detail um so the I think first issue is
15:30 - 16:00 um you get given the papers I mean you go but this isn't what we need and I would do this uh and then you're you're sitting there with um you the leadership team of the business and they're going we know we'd like to do that um but we don't have it and you know we can either get the debt tapes over to the lender and get our funding facility which integral to it or we can do pretty charts for you and that's not going to be their priority call nor should be um
16:00 - 16:30 and then the second bit of that is okay my experience is very relevant so funny enough because of the citto Cycles luno has also been going through a bit of a turnaround and how do we take that business to profitability yeah Challenge on a far different scale right so a burn of millions dollars per month versus thousands is is a different category of problem but the actual levers are pretty much the same same yeah but again there
16:30 - 17:00 executive versus non-executive so you can suggest that maybe heads aren't in the right place or that we might need to make some action but firstly you're very focused on management level so not down organization so in my own company I'm sitting there going okay how many teams do we need how many Engineers what do we think is the absolute minimum to run the business here it's let pick a role is the head of marketing deliver the strategy that you need or how solid is your Tech platform
17:00 - 17:30 or how efficient it's that kind of more strategic level question so your CFO hat answer might be right I want to get into and justify every single body that's in here and understand what they're doing and right what value are they adding everything else and you you shouldn't be doing that your job is to sit there with the CEO and say right are you happy with how this area of the business is working and if not what changes are you going to make and what changes can you afford to make
17:30 - 18:00 yeah um because you know I'm sure most startup CEOs and I know my CEOs have sat there and gone I'd like to upgrade that team that team that team can't do it all right now don't have the money don't have the bandwidth so what's the most critical thing for me to do um and actually that's fine as long as you get the most critical piece um you just then solve the next problem and next problem one of the hardest
18:00 - 18:30 things I think is actually putting into words what it means to work with myself and the team here at itas um because not only are we a financial transformation consultancy but we do it using Sage technology so rather than me tell you how awesome we are let me introduce one of our customers I'd recommend itas as a sage partner um not only because of their knowledge that they have on the the product itself um intact but also their friendly and professional approach to
18:30 - 19:00 the whole project um they've been incredibly flexible throughout the the process but also challenging us as a customer to really think about what it is that that we're after um and ensuring that intact was actually the correct solution for us to meet our to meet our needs which was really refreshing rather than feeling we're just being sold a product that that they offer um we've got on really well with the whole team they've been hugely approachable um
19:00 - 19:30 helpful throughout the the whole process really putting it as at ease if you know anything we kind of felt um we were struggling with or difficult uh really helped us to understand some of the complexities um with the new system that that's different to other Finance systems things that we' just never come across before like the New Dimensions and understanding how that actually works and and on the flip side what has being an Ned changed about how you operate as a CFO
19:30 - 20:00 um so I think it's a greater awareness of what board members are actually going to want which was actually what I hoped I was going to get from from the background right so you are sitting in the board you have this sort of time lapse sliced view of the business you have very limited information you get the board pack some point before the meeting and that's it right so it's a very intense engagement and then you come out again so understanding that perspective of well
20:00 - 20:30 this is how I received information this is what I would like and this was my experience sitting on a board now when I talk to my board it's much easier to go right their perspective is going to be slightly different and you know two months ago we were talking about this big problem and now we think that's solved and we're moving on and we're on to the next problem but they're still going to come back and go but hang on you were talking about enhanced due diligence cues being a
20:30 - 21:00 problem uh and so you've got to take them on that journey and recognize that they saw the business in the rearview mirror a couple months ago and now it's moved and that's not to say you we don't have very active board members we we do um but they are across a whole po value of companies and that means they can't spend the time thinking M you do and you need to be ready for that and the CFO you you need to be telling the story
21:00 - 21:30 and the numbers really at a high level um and you can't just turn out the same management accounts fire the pack up um yes people want to see that they're going to want to see the same information they like consistency so they can see Trends and everything else but actually that story of okay over the last two months we've added X number of institutional clients or uh Nigeria has been behind plan and this is what we're doing about it that's the discussion and you need to
21:30 - 22:00 frame the board meeting right at the start because otherwise it will just go out of your control in various directions um and being ineed even on a much smaller company with great aspirations but still a much smaller company uh you understand how that can happen um and so I'm now much more informed about what is the board Dynamic likely to be like uh which I thought I was before but just the personal
22:00 - 22:30 experience you suddenly realize a little bit more about okay how things be set up in the way that you want them to get to the outcome you want at the end of the board so you talk about almost helping the board stay current in terms of that transition between board meetings have has being on the board changed how you present and what information that you present and how you work with those directors so probably I'm thinking now what's
22:30 - 23:00 actually changed over the last sort of two years because we've also had a CEO transition um and I say the business as a whole has now been much more focused on critical initiatives what are the metrics we're seeking to move um helped by a very sharp focus on we need to become sustainably profitable not dependent on market conditions which in a market like crypto is very difficult uh so that
23:00 - 23:30 Focus I think has been informed by the dynamic I just talked about which is okay from a steady Bay Point of View we care about how many business partners have been on board in and are those working and are we seeing the Integrations and the upti and we're now seeing that which is great but it's been some steady sustained progress and it's taken longer because these are business relationships less so about the director consumer business which is obviously taking second priority but I'll be
23:30 - 24:00 seeing the rights of tick up so it's come back to right the critical thing strategically to tell the story to raise money for the next round is going to be the following we need this many business customers and we need evidence of traction and we need a speed of integration great we seeing that that's most important okay second business how is that actually do but it's the same metrics it's the same strategic conversation um and does not doesn't evolve over time but we've been very
24:00 - 24:30 very focused and from a luno point of view it's been exactly the same it's fixing our unit economics it's really making sure our customers are converting well and coming back to us it's broadening the product offering you know four years ago 2020 2021 we had maybe four tokens on the platform we're going to finish 2024 with nearly 40 um and that's just emblematic of the product depth that we've built but the reason being that each customer now
24:30 - 25:00 needs to make us more money and we need to have a deeper relationship with them and really get an enhanced value exchange because that's how we build a sustainable business it can't just be on board by Bitcoin we forget about you no it's on board explore this new ecosystem and expose you to as much of it as possible and then curate the relationship like multiple multiple transactions multiple times and extend and that's that's been a very conscious strategy but it's taken 18 months to
25:00 - 25:30 pull off and Relentless focus on metrics at management level that we've been reflect at board level uh and that discipline has really paid off and what about board Dynamics has being being an Ed has it actually changed your viewpoint on board Dynamic within or have you got a very different board dynamic in in in your you know in the one with um stream pay versus in
25:30 - 26:00 luno so dynamic in steady pay is different but say similar so in steady pay it's different because uh it's a very small board and it's largely investors and I'm the independent for luno our board is mainly exex and are sole investor which is digital currency group yeah we also have
26:00 - 26:30 a pleer of board advisor and observers um uh who also sit there um so that Dynamic is very different however where similar is actually understanding where there are differences of opinion and lack of alignment yeah um so each director whether they're exec or not particularly the non- execs comes of their own perspective what the right answer for the business is or what they're going to
26:30 - 27:00 choose and to care about and that might be related to the expertise so they'll want to drill into risk management or they'll want to drill into your strategy or understand how this particular geography is dealing with it and that's coming back to their hypothesis of that how to drive value in the business uh and so understanding the different starting points and assumptions of each of your directors so you can understand where they're going to go with a
27:00 - 27:30 particular piece of work or issue for discussion is crucial so although the Dynamics different and the personalities are very different um actually the starting point of red want X and ginger wants Y and Bill wants to talk about country B and this other director or this Observer has a particular bug bear about your AIT reports or something you've got to be
27:30 - 28:00 prepared to handle that and curate the message and part of your work with the CEO is like what's the business we want to get through is it approval of the budget is it approval of strategic direction is it advice on a particular issue is it giving comfort that we should be deploying Capital into this particular aspect so for luno that's huge and we're talking about large scale amounts of money the steady pay HS smaller scale but it's the same question of do we focus on BB or B2B Toc which do
28:00 - 28:30 we do is it direct to consumer or focusing on business relationships because we can't spend our time doing both and we have to try and struggle both on and each director has a different view of that and getting to consensus so that business can move forward with an agreed plan is critical and so the Dynamics and the personalities are different but that fundamental point of everyone comes to the room having read the papers independently having thought about the problem even when they work for the same
28:30 - 29:00 company have been sitting on the same board for a year they can be very very far apart and you can't necessarily force them together but you need to understand that and help your CEO navigate that because the two of you kind of tag team if you're doing it right uh and your job is to kind of manage the board to the right conclusion for the business uh and you a good chairman can help with that um but but you you also need to do the work and
29:00 - 29:30 actually in both boards we don't have a chairman so in steady pay that I guess that kind of makes me hit because I'm independent um but in in Lun know it's not quite a freefor all but we we we definitely have to manage the agenda bit more carefully as as a result and what I'm hearing there is actually just that awareness of the not the agenda that people come in with but almost the the leanings and the personal biases that come from exper erience as to how they VI the board papers that's
29:30 - 30:00 really fascinating is and how as you know as somebody that is an N how like how how do you how do you make sure that you're not coming in with too much of a bias like you're leaning on your experience but you're not necessarily focusing on your your your view of what that business needs it's a fair challenge because I think that's definitely been something that's been a learning experience um so
30:00 - 30:30 as much as you need to be aware of your different board member constituencies or hypotheses or approaches it's not even agenda for the business right it's have a problem uh of course you bring that right you're human you do the same thing so everything from these don't look like a set of management accounts I produce well of course not you're not the CEO CFO of this business why would you be expecting the same thing um and
30:30 - 31:00 what I might find useful you got to guard against the really getting into the economics of this business and I like that and I'm really excited to understand it and it's not the most important thing right um and so being aware of that tendency and taking the time to occasionally ask oneself okay what would the CEO of this business like me to be doing what do they need and that those two are not
31:00 - 31:30 necessarily the same sometimes what you need is not what you want uh but what's the most helpful thing I could be doing and is it drilling into the management accounts and getting them in shape or is it saying John you need to think about your seni leadership team because what I'm hearing is you completely complaining about this area all the time so what are you doing to fix that um and is he focusing on the things that creat most sort of drain of energy and
31:30 - 32:00 resources for the business that's very different than what I might particularly want to see um and so it's it's a good discipline to make you put that alternative hat on go right what advice would I like to be receiving what advice do I need to be receiving if I'm sat in that seat okay how do we move from there um so it's a good humility check as well because you don't know everything about the business you can't know everything about it because you're not in it
32:00 - 32:30 247 um but that reminder to control the ego a little bit and be a bit less definitive in well this is good enough or this isn't and this is what I need um because the business doesn't have time to run around fdu all the time right and so far better focus on making sure they're getting the big calls right um and pick up the pieces on the rest of it later but that's also true of my day job yeah if I'm focusing on software costs
32:30 - 33:00 or I'm renegotiating my sage contract is that really going to matter no I should do it but it's not going to matter whereas getting the call of should we launch another 10 tokens or should we enter Market X that's going to make a huge difference so we've got to get those right and it's the same inent and you see it on a smaller stage it's almost like it's simpler and makes it easier to then take that learning back and back to this point of your day job
33:00 - 33:30 informs your Ned role and your Ned role informs your day job and hopefully you get this virtuous circle and actually helps Square it with your CEO because you've come with the picture of I want to spend a day a month looking after this other company that you're not paying me for they need to be convinced that's a good idea too uh and I've had very both my C have been very supportive of that but the uh I think they've seen the benefits as well um it's definitely something in the broader exec team we talked about should we be collectively
33:30 - 34:00 doing more of this um because we've gone through a few ups and downs as luno and 10 years of history and built a company that perspective is valuable some people further along or less far along on their Journey but also we need to be picking up experiences from people who are further along um so you know I used to sit and talk with investors at monzo uh some of who included actual businesses that were VC houses and sitting there with the CFO
34:00 - 34:30 of that business going oh yeah we had that problem about 18 months ago this is what we did uh and Ne it worked or didn't work but then I could steal that experience and take it back to to my day job so you kind of need the break for both almost like someone better than you someone earlier than you not worse earlier and then peers can you bring those perspectives to the executive table um because actually that then just means you've got more tools resp to solve the problems you're looking and I guess also as a CFO it
34:30 - 35:00 makes you really think about focusing on the Strategic piece and it was a great post i s LinkedIn actually this week about you know if a CFO is only in the the costs and the numbers than they're not doing the CFO role so I guess it helps you bring up the importance and learn to prioritize the Strategic piece as well as the the you know the other elements of finan go within that CF yes I think as I talked about last
35:00 - 35:30 time right one of the great joys of sitting in the finance chair is it's an Enterprise one VI because yeah everything shows up in the numbers right and yeah almost nothing I do drives revenue and profitability for luno but also everything I do drives profitability and so uh you have that perspective whereas everyone else is kind of sitting around in their naturally in their world like the about getting the marketing campaign away or
35:30 - 36:00 getting this country launch done or figuring through this compliance problem or whatever happens to be and that's what they're meant to do right but the relative priority calls on yes we're prepared to put extra people here or we're going to put management time and attention on this particular problem not that particular problem it's only really you and the CEO have that perspective uh so it's been really helpful to make sure that you're continuing to Rancher that up and yes
36:00 - 36:30 you know have the finance function running incredibly smoothly have a team of lieutenants that you can really rely on make sure that you understand the numbers and where they're coming out absolutely critical but that's the starting point to then say right where do we need to tighten up our operation efficiency are we working on the right projects are those projects having good outcomes you know we expected to save $30,000 a month did we oh we didn't okay why was that did we
36:30 - 37:00 make the right priority call did we estimate correctly at the start and then how does that all ladder up to the five strategic priorities for this business are the following and we've got to get these right otherwise the rest is moved getting that list short correct with metrics that you can judge success or failure against that's the game uh if you get that right then your absolutely going to have much more of an impact on the business but you're going to have a
37:00 - 37:30 much stronger CEO and board relationship um than if you're just seeners here's the numbers and here's the scorecard you get know what to do about it and I guess you know having done that Ned roll like what would be your advice to anyone thinking about making a step in that direction one I'm guessing you'd say do it because it sounds like you've gained a lot from it but you know was there any anything that you wish you'd known before going into it or that
37:30 - 38:00 somebody had told you to think about prior um so yes I would do it um i' the a piece of advice I mentioned that was think very carefully about the type of company and which angle you want to pursue both because it informs future but also you're going to spend some time doing this right so it really helps that I like the CEO and think he's got real potential the business right um because you're you're going to be sitting at
38:00 - 38:30 lunch with him quite a long period of time and chewing over the business and you've got to be interested in it um so don't just do it for the fact that okay I can put it in LinkedIn and say that's you that's on my CV you've got to like the business um I think the piece of advice I wish I'd been given would have been just understand the board Dynamics a little better um before you come in not that I think I particularly did
38:30 - 39:00 anything wrong it would just been easier to do what I had to do uh and add value to the business if I'd understood that a little bit more but you don't necessarily get to meet all of them and you don't necessarily understand that you do um so some of that I think probably is a process of exploring and finding out um but I think the more you can invest in understanding who your beers are going to be both in in terms of how you're going to learn from them but also again
39:00 - 39:30 you're going to sit in a meeting room every month with them you need to be able to understand where they're coming from and at least get on with them um because otherwise the business is not going to benefit from the collective talents which is the whole point of having a board in the first place right we all bring different perspectives we all bring different skill sets and hopefully the amalgam of all those makes the business stronger uh so really investing in that up front uh I think really really critical um but
39:30 - 40:00 certainly I if you get the right company with the right uh Vibe the right view of what you're bringing to it and what it's bringing to you uh and you can feel credible sitting in front of your day job CEO say I think this will make me a better EXA absolutely go do it because uh it just brings so much perspective uh and helps you get better at your day job uh and hopefully do a bit of good make it smaller business and successful business uh so yeah definitely go for it
40:00 - 40:30 but in a mindful way don't just take the first thing that comes along and and talking of finding the right role you know have you got any advice for for where people should look did you get was yours about the networks that you had and somebody asked you to get involved or did you is there a place that you looked to find that role in the first place uh the answer that your listeners are probably not going to like is it's all about the network um so this came about from a colleague of mine from my
40:30 - 41:00 NBA who had done some prono Consulting and knew I was in the market and knew they were in the market and Link was up uh so that personal recommendation obviously meant that John was prepared to meet me and actually we had a positively primed relationship to start with um and yeah that connection was everything so uh that's why I think it takes some time both because you're doing your research on what you might like and what might suit you but also
41:00 - 41:30 you need to pump up your network and if there are Neds in your network you can talk to them about their experience but also that then helps with the um awareness that you might be in the market uh because guess what when you've got one n people come and ask you do you want to do another one uh and the answer may be no but if I know that Hannah wants to do one I'm like go this isn't for me but you should talk to so and so and it's that class of networking is
41:30 - 42:00 exactly how I think a lot of these come to fruition particularly the first one because there is a bit of a hurdle you don't have experience um and you know I had a few that probably weren't right for me but they wanted an experienced Ned and so we probably weren't right for each other uh so there is a little bit of uh how do you get the first one and network I think then helps a lot in terms of personal recommendation and making sure the relationships work
42:00 - 42:30 because then you can get over the hump of but you've never done it before and one of the interesting Dynamics I think especially when a business's founder LED or run and that Founders actively involved in the in the selection of the board members how do you find the right balance between successfully challenging that that founder or that that individual that CEO versus you know doing um you know not damaging the
42:30 - 43:00 relationship to a point where they don't want you as part of their board so how do you manage that Dynamic um I think you need to say true to your principles and what you think is is sensible right so I'm not going to tell John to do anything I can suggest I can persuade that's kind of what the role is about I can give my perspective which is really valuable in some ways bear in mind right that CEOs really want that because there aren't that many people can talk to about their business that don't have a loaded agenda on it be
43:00 - 43:30 it their employees or their investors um and you know ultimately he knows that I want the same thing which is for the business to grow be successful and if it needs money raise money successfully and the test of the quality of our relationship is how well it does those things and if at some point I'm not helping him do that then fine um so the good news is that um NE controls are time limited you're appointed for a period and very often that's three and a
43:30 - 44:00 renewal but you're not there forever um and that does give you Independence to be able to say I don't think you're going in the right direction but I would hope that' be taken the spirits intended and if it wasn't welcome then it would be in our interest to say right well actually this isn't isn't the right thing for either of us and what's a good managed transition as I said I have no idea if that's going to I don't think it's going to happen I'm enjoying what I'm doing and seems to be
44:00 - 44:30 working reasonably well but equally John needs to think about the you know components of his boorn and what he needs to add value over the next three years so um it's always a decision but if you let that scare you off then you're not doing your job your job is to sit there at some point and say this is what I think you can listen to my advice very carefully and you can choose to ignore it um that your prerogative prerogative of the board is eventually to fire you CEO if
44:30 - 45:00 we think it's necessary I think things have gone very badly wrong if that happens so that's probably not going to be likely uh but everyone's a grown up in the room and they all want the same thing and ultimately I think that really helps in terms of the perspective of right why am I getting this feedback why are they asking these questions what are they most concerned about and have I got my priorities tuned in right way as a CEO uh and I think once you get to that
45:00 - 45:30 point regardless of the eventual outcome you're definitely adding value because you're just giving people three for four and then I'm GNA finish the podcast flip So based on your experience of an being an ed what would you what advice would you give to a new CFO or an existing CFO about how to work better with the nonexact so I think it emphasizes the importance
45:30 - 46:00 of doubling down on building board relationships so um I've always insisted on being an exact director on the boards I'm on hasn't always been the case uh it's usually taken time so both mono I started off not being briefly in Ono took a bit longer at luno but that direct line to the board is really important so you crudely characterized it is the CEO is selling rainbows and optimism and they look to
46:00 - 46:30 see if to go is that really going to happen we're not quite as misaligned with that but you that that Dynamic is quite helpful um but then also building that relationship where they know that you're getting giving them an honest view of the business that isn't filtered by whatever the CEO um and you've spent the time to understand their perspective back to this different Dynamics right you has you know Fiona been burnt by a particular
46:30 - 47:00 issue here has uh you know Ellena thought about this particular thing or right Kei in charge of this or um you know Nick is a chief risk officer and has a very particular perspective all of these things you need to know the individuals because they're going to come and ask you these questions and you don't if you don't know where they're coming from from you're not going to be able to answer it or managed in the
47:00 - 47:30 right way so building that relationship and understanding right I'm never going to be perfect but I've got a view of where you're coming from your background the rest of your portfolio and okay Angie you're going to ask this question okay why are you asking that and what's not going to be you just need to have that constant dialogue uh and it's easy to lose it because you can fall into the Trap of not seeing people in between board meetings because actually that's the bit that scheduled that's the bit we have to turn up for is it bit we do and then we
47:30 - 48:00 send out the company again so actually taking time between board meetings to understand board agenda really really important um and it's a continuous process it's not a just join have a few meetings you're done now you understand because they're thinking evolves right and as your understanding of business involves to having a ability to have a conversation again what do you think is really important for luno or steady pay or monzo in the next year and a half
48:00 - 48:30 what should we be focusing on understanding that on a oneon-one basis just UPS your game across the whole piece amazing wow I'm gutted to say Owen we've run out of we're running out of time ralisa thank you so much for for sharing you know sharing your experience I think it's been really quite fascinating I think to speak to somebody that's been on both sides and to see that transition
48:30 - 49:00 and how it's impacted so thank you so much for for sharing your story and if if you know if anyone wants to learn more about yourself about steady pay about Luna where's the best place to sort of understand more uh so both companies are obviously online um so I should be able to Rattle off the websites lun.com is easy but um I think it's steady Bay UK is gonna kill me for that one and put it in the link and of course I'm on LinkedIn so um you you can find me uh
49:00 - 49:30 there and that will have links to all company sites as well amazing well thank you so much Alvin and thank you for coming on and uh giving us this Insight a few years after our our previous conversation so it's really great to to see how things have developed with you and yeah looking forward to catching up in another few as well thank you you haven't scared me off yet so I'm doing well
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