DEBATE: Should Christians Support Zionism? | Andrew Wilson Vs Apostate Prophet

Summary

The debate hosted by Modern-Day Debate centered on whether Christians should support Zionism, featuring Andrew Wilson against Apostate Prophet (Ridban Adomir). The discussion delved into the theological, ethical, and pragmatic aspects of supporting a Jewish state. While Ridban advocated for supporting Zionism to prevent Islamic dominance and protect Christian interests, Andrew argued against the obligation, citing potential endorsement of a false messiah. The debate highlighted key perspectives on religious and geopolitical dynamics impacting Israel and its neighbors, leaving the audience with complex considerations of faith, politics, and ethics.

Highlights

• Apostate Prophet emphasizes the need for a Jewish state to prevent Muslim domination. 🕊️
• Andrew contests by highlighting the risk of endorsing an antichrist. 🙅‍♂️
• Both debaters present historical and scriptural arguments to back their claims. 📖
• The debate sees intense exchanges and engagement from the audience. 🗣️
• Continues the tradition of deep religious debates hosted by Modern-Day Debate. 📜

Key Takeaways

• Debate focused on whether Christians should support Zionism, featuring Andrew Wilson and Apostate Prophet. 🤔
• Apostate Prophet advocates for supporting Zionism to prevent Islamic dominance. 🛡️
• Andrew Wilson argues against the obligation, citing the endorsement of a false messiah. 🚫
• The discussion delves into religious, geopolitical, and ethical considerations. 🌍
• Audience engaged in a spirited Q&A session, reflecting diverse viewpoints. 🔍

Overview

The debate opened with Ridban Adomir, known as Apostate Prophet, advocating for Christian support of Zionism. He argued from a theological and pragmatic standpoint, emphasizing the necessity of a Jewish state to prevent Islamic dominance in the region. He highlighted the risks of Christian populations if Israel were to fall and suggested that supporting Zionism aligns with biblical prophecies.

Andrew Wilson countered, focusing on the ethical implications of endorsing a state that potentially supports a false messiah. He argued that such support could inadvertently harm Christian doctrines and ethics. Wilson also pointed out that the support of a Jewish state should not be seen as mandatory for Christians and emphasized the possibility of pursuing other geopolitical solutions.

Throughout the debate, both debaters used a mix of historical evidence and religious interpretation to bolster their arguments. The audience was engaged, posing challenging questions that further deepened the discussion. The event concluded with a focus on the complexities facing modern Christians in navigating their religious and political obligations.

Chapters

• 00:00 - 09:00: Intro Music The chapter 'Intro Music' consists primarily of music, interspersed with sound elements.
• 09:00 - 10:30: Olivia D'Angelo Introduction Olivia D'Angelo is introduced in this chapter. The content appears to begin with an audio or video transition sound, denoting a change of topic or scene.
• 10:30 - 12:00: Sean Seamco's Speech The transcript starts with a musical introduction, setting the stage for Sean Seamco's speech.
• 12:00 - 14:00: Dr. James Coons Introduction This chapter introduces Dr. James Coons, setting the stage with an atmospheric musical introduction.
• 14:00 - 15:00: Debate Introduction and Format This chapter introduces the framework of a debate, highlighting the structure and formulation that guide the proceedings.
• 15:00 - 27:00: Apostate Prophet - Opening Statements The chapter opens with a casual greeting and background music, setting a relaxed and welcoming tone.
• 27:00 - 39:00: Andrew Wilson - Opening Statements Andrew Wilson - Opening Statements: The chapter begins with Andrew Wilson making opening statements that set the stage for further discussion or events. Despite the brevity of the mention ('Yeah'), it suggests an initial agreement or acknowledgment, potentially implying a shared understanding or the introduction of a topic that will be expanded upon.
• 39:00 - 42:00: Rebuttals The chapter titled 'Rebuttals' starts with a musical introduction, indicating the beginning of a new section or thematic shift in the content.
• 42:00 - 65:00: Crossfire This chapter, titled 'Crossfire,' begins with an indistinct audio background, marked by music playing throughout. Without specific dialogue or narration available in the transcript, the chapter's content is ambiguous. However, the atmosphere set by the music suggests a moment of tension or buildup, possibly leading to key developments in the storyline. The exact events and themes of the chapter remain unclear due to the lack of context beyond the audio elements.
• 65:00 - 90:00: Audience Q&A This chapter, titled 'Audience Q&A,' begins with musical elements, suggesting a transition or a setting of context. The chapter potentially involves interaction with an audience, where questions and answers are exchanged, although no detailed content or questions are provided in the transcript.
• 90:00 - 95:00: Closing Statements The chapter titled 'Closing Statements' primarily features music with no spoken content, suggesting a musical conclusion to the material presented in previous sections.
• 95:00 - 112:00: Event Conclusion and Thank Yous The chapter, 'Event Conclusion and Thank Yous,' features a closing sequence marked by music and applause, signifying the conclusion of an event. The mood is celebratory, highlighting a successful event with expressions of gratitude towards the attendees and participants.
• 112:00 - 118:00: Outro Music The chapter titled 'Outro Music' is a brief closing segment that features the host acknowledging the end of the session with a casual and cheerful 'Hey, hey, hey' followed by music playing. It likely signals the end of the main content and serves as a transition to the end of the podcast or show.

DEBATE: Should Christians Support Zionism? | Andrew Wilson Vs Apostate Prophet Transcription

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• 09:00 - 09:30 Hello everyone. Thank you so much for making it out tonight. My name is Olivia D'Angelo. I'm president of UNCCA's chapter of Uncensored America. Um we are so excited to be hosting this debate here tonight. It has been a long work in progress and it is so great to see so many people
• 09:30 - 10:00 turning out to be here to support us. Um, if you are a student, staff or faculty or anyone in the area who wants to keep up with us, you can go to Rocky Connect through the school that has all the orgs information and events that we hold to keep up to date with what we're doing. And we also have an Instagram page. It's uncensored America. So again, thank you so much for coming out and I'm gonna hand the mic over to Sean Seamco. [Applause]
• 10:00 - 10:30 Thank you so much. All right. How we doing, North Carolina? All right. Recognizing a few familiar faces from our last event down south in South Carolina at the Myron Gates event. Was anybody at that? Yeah, there we go. Yep. I knew I recognized some of you. That was a lot of fun. You guys been seeing the clips go around. Myron Games was debating a bunch of feminists and lefties on uh his campus down there at New University North or South Carolina.
• 10:30 - 11:00 And it was a lot of fun. It's really been popping off. So, we're really really happy for all the support we've gotten from that. But if you want to start a chapter on your campus, go to uncensoredamea. us and you can start one and do events like this or do tables like the Myern event as well. Um but we're gonna kick off this debate by first handing this over to our moderator, Dr. James Coons.
• 11:00 - 11:30 Thank you, James. Thank you. Thank you very much, Sean. Thanks for being here, folks. We are thrilled to have you here. This is going to be a great debate. Got a couple of quick housekeeping things. Folks, if you happen to be watching online, so Sean had mentioned I'm from Modern Day Debate and Uncensored America is exploding right now with popularity. We're thrilled for them as we're kind of like sister organizations. We're working together closely. If you're watching online at Uncensored America or Modern Day Debate, check out the link in the
• 11:30 - 12:00 description box below. We are currently doing a fundraiser for the lenses that we use at these inerson events. Join the movement and helping us make these events happen by helping us get these lenses for these events. With that, I want to move into introducing our speakers. As I said folks, we are absolutely thrilled as this is going to be a rigorous debate as our experienced opponents are going to collide tonight. Starting with for the Christian
• 12:00 - 12:30 pro-Zionism position, Ridban Adomir aka apostate prophet is the best debater known to mankind, especially when it comes to matters of Israel, the Middle East, Islam, and all other things. Please welcome AP AP Apostate Prophet Rid Van Adamir. Thank you for being with us.
• 12:30 - 13:00 you here also for the Christian anti-Zionist position. Andrew Wilson is the destroyer of Rid Vans and slayer of e skanks. Welcome Andrew Wilson. [Applause]
• 13:00 - 13:30 a true pair of debate champions. I'm going to read the official proposition and then the format and then we'll get started. So for the official debate proposition, it is should Christians in particular support Zionism. We'll have 12minute opening statements with Apostate Prophet going first. This will
• 13:30 - 14:00 be followed by five minute rebuttals and then 15 minutes of crossfire between the speakers. Following this, we'll have 35 minutes of audience Q&A and then three minute closings from each speaker. With that, we're going to jump right into it. Thanks very much. AP, the floor is all yours for your opening. Pen, James. No pens, James. Not a single. We were gonna get you. There's a pen right behind the tablet. Oh,
• 14:00 - 14:30 AP. Terrible, terrible beginning. [Laughter] We'll kick it over to AP. The floor is all yours with the timer set. Thank you so much, uh, James. Thanks to Uncensored America and thanks to uh Andrew for organizing this. Andrew is a newcomer to debates. Many people don't know him. Uh he might be a little bit nervous today. Uh before I start um I want to point out that there is a QR code over there. It might also appear on the screen. So uh I'm not going to go with a presentation,
• 14:30 - 15:00 but I have a one-page landing site there where uh everyone can follow the evidence and everything that I'm going to talk about today. So I'm going to argue for the position that Christians should absolutely support Zionism. In order to have a proper debate about this topic, we feel we need to establish first what Zionism is. Over the last years, lots of people have began talking about Zionism often in uh very wrong ways. They have given wrong descriptions. Especially when Christianity comes into the equation, lots of people misunderstand what
• 15:00 - 15:30 Zionism is about. They think that it is about um some end time prophecy often influenced by certain Protestant uh teachings. But uh it might come as a surprise to many people. But when I say Zionism, we are simply talking about the establishment and the protection of a land, a country, a state where Jews can live freely, a Jewish state in what is now known as Israel. At some point in history, this was known as uh Palestine
• 15:30 - 16:00 or Palestina, named by the Romans in order to suppress Jewish identity. Uh today, the Arabs living in the region have adopted or rather appropriated this name for themselves. But that's all it is. Zionism simply stands for establishing and protecting a land, a state for the Jewish people. I want to make one thing very clear, which is that I am not a Christian Zionist. I'm not a religious Zionist. I am a Christian today who also happens to support Zionism because I care about the
• 16:00 - 16:30 continued existence of the Jewish people in the land. That's what I support. being an anti-Zionist would by definition be to be against the existence of this state to be against the existence of a state for Jews and would also conclude in the annihilation the extermination the destruction of the Jewish people in the land and this is not just a fallacy this is not propaganda this is the truth destroying such a state would immediately very
• 16:30 - 17:00 quickly lead to the destruction of the Jewish people living there. We don't have to speculate very much about this. Islam uh Israel is currently at war with Hamas. Hamas stands for Islamic resistance movement. A very very uh nice trick by the Islamists to describe themselves as a resistance. From the very beginning, Hamas made their mission very very clear to destroy Israel and to eradicate the Jewish people. This is not just Israeli propaganda. It is in Hamas's own
• 17:00 - 17:30 declaration rooted in Islamic prophecy. In the Hamas charter of 1988, you can read very clearly in article 7 that it says the hour will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them and the rocks and trees will say, "Oh Muslim, there is a Jew behind me. Come and kill him." Except for the garat tree, which is the tree of the Jews. You only get something this sick in Islam where you have a Jew tree that is evil because it refuses to snitch on the Jews. Uh but the message here is
• 17:30 - 18:00 very clear. It is the destruction of the Jewish people. That is literally what Hamas started out with. Hamas doesn't hide this at all. After October 7, their leadership declared that they would happily attack Israel over and over again until Israel is completely destroyed and eradicated. The leadership of Hamas, Fati Hamad, a leader among the Palestinian Arabs in Gaza, has in 2018 and on multiple occasions explicitly said word for word,
• 18:00 - 18:30 I'm not exaggerating, that within a few years we will fulfill the promise of the eradication, the cleansing of the filth of the Jews from the land of Palestine. He also said that the second goal after that is to establish or reestablish the Islamic caliphate in Jerusalem. And I will come to that in a in a minute in less than a minute. Now Hamas is not alone in this. The while Gaza is led by
• 18:30 - 19:00 Hamas on the other side in the West Bank, the Palestinian Authority is in charge. The Palestinian Authority uh marks itself as a secular movement. But being secular in the Muslim world is not like being secular in the west. Being secular there simply means that you establish a political system which is not a theocracy but which is also not free from Islamic influence. For example, the Palestinian Authority has a Ministry of Religious Affairs which only one week or two weeks after the October 7 terrorist attack instructed mosques,
• 19:00 - 19:30 and you can find this when you scan the code, instructed mosques on October 20th to tell Muslims in the mosques that the time will come when the Muslims will fight and eradicate the Jews. When they however speak in English to the world, they make it look like all their problem is just about existing and resisting. That's not the truth. Let's not make any mistakes here. While Israel's ambition from the very
• 19:30 - 20:00 beginning was to exist and to coexist with the other side, the the other side from the very beginning always aimed to eradicate the Jews. It's no coincidence that one of the earliest leaders of those Palestinian Arabs was the Grand Mui Hajj Amin Al-Husini who was also a good friend of none other than Hitler who to him directly promised in word we have documents on this that uh if the Nazis win the war they will come down and together annihilate the Jews the leftover Jews in the region and the
• 20:00 - 20:30 Islamists will then be in charge of all the Arabs in the region. With all of this uh on our minds, I want to present three reasons why we should be supporting Zionism. Reason number one is to prevent a caliphate. This should be a given. Eradicating Jews, as I just pointed out, is not the only, not the final goal. According to Hamas, after the Jews are destroyed, the Islamic caliphate would be established. In a fantasy world where Hamas uh wins and actually destroys
• 20:30 - 21:00 Israel, it wouldn't simply end there. I know some people might not care about Jews, but uh at least care about the other people in the region or care about the history. Uh the euphoria would be huge among Muslims. I grew up in an environment where it was talked about again and again that the Muslims will rise up again one day. If Israel were defeated, an Islamic empire would be reestablished and together they would establish brutal Sharia law and begin oppressing all the others in the region as well. and then they would probably
• 21:00 - 21:30 all align themselves with Britain which also is very much Islamic today. Um in history we can see that over the last 1,400 years Islam did nothing except conquer and slaughter. Only last century the Armenian genocide happened. At the same time the Assyrians and the Greeks were slaughtered. These massacres inspired the Nazis to commit the Holocaust and to slaughter the Polish and Eastern European people. The Islamic conquests were only forcibly stopped by the
• 21:30 - 22:00 Christian West. If they awaken again, it would very very quickly lead to the rising of an Islamic empire. It is in the best interest of Christians and of even of Muslims that we prevent this and we wish for stability through Israel. Reason number two is to protect the Christians. Israel is significantly better for Christians and other minorities and even for Muslims than any other alternative that we have in the region. Let's take Christians as an
• 22:00 - 22:30 example. Israel is the only country in the Middle East where Christianity is not shrinking but growing. The only place in the Middle East where Christians are overwhelmingly satisfied and happy according to themselves. the only place where Christians have full freedoms according to Open Doors International, which is a Christian organization that tracks oppression of Christians in the world. Meanwhile, in Gaza, the Christian population is shrinking. In the West Bank, the Christian population is shrinking. In Gaza, over the last
• 22:30 - 23:00 decades, the general population exploded by about 300%. At the same time, the Christians are about to be non-existent. They have shrunk under the number of 1,000. Some people actually comment ridiculously suggest that this might be Israel's fault. But how could that be? That doesn't make any sense. If Israel was at fault, then the entire population would be shrinking, not just the Christian population. Under Israel, Christianity thrives. Under Islamic persecution, Christianity dies.
• 23:00 - 23:30 In 2014, the Greek Orthodox Archbishop Alexios in Gaza said that Hamas use uses the uh the compound of the ancient church of uh St. Perious to fire rockets from there at Israel, which would inevitably lead to Israel having to respond. During this current war, the compound of the P St. Perious church received damage and a building inside there collapsed. Guess who people blamed that for? Israel. Reason number three, and here I want to
• 23:30 - 24:00 appeal to scripture. In Romans 9 through11, St. Paul writes that his heart is aching for his fellow Israelites, that he would give up his own salvation if he could to save them, his fellow Jews, the Israelites by flesh. As he says, he makes it very clear that the true Israel are those who believe in Christ. But he nonetheless acknowledges that those who reject Christ are still the natural branches. He writes, "As regard the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regard election, they are beloved for the sake of their
• 24:00 - 24:30 forefathers. Only for the Jewish people is something like this ever uttered in the Bible. He says, "For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable." He warns Christians and says, "Do not boast against the natural branches, the Israel by flesh. If you do, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you." He prophesied. He said that there is a partial hardening upon Israel at this moment, but that God will through a
• 24:30 - 25:00 mystery change things and in the future remove sin from the people of Israel and graft them back in and therefore all Israel will be saved. St. Kirill of Alexandria also said based on this that Israel in the future will be reconciled to Christ through faith. St. Augustine said that the survival of the Jewish people is a huge sign from God and that they will eventually be reconciled. St. John Chrisum despite his harsh rhetoric about Jews said that it is bound to happen in the future before the end that
• 25:00 - 25:30 the Jewish people will be grafted back in by God. I want to finally also quote a respected Orthodox hierarch metropolitan Kalisto wear who recently died who also very very emotionally uh in the '9s wrote an article in which he said that the Jews are still God's chosen people until the end. Let us never show the slightest disrespect or hatred toward them. I went to Israel myself. I saw the people there
• 25:30 - 26:00 when I was still an ice cold atheist. I experienced the people there. I exper I had uh interactions with religious Jews there. My time in Israel is something that led me to question everything. I realized one thing which is that these people are amazing despite what every everyone says and it didn't make sense to me that uh people around the world would vilify the Jewish people. It certainly cannot be because of the way they are. When I open the Bible today in which I firmly believe, I see that St.
• 26:00 - 26:30 Paul loved the Jews who rejected Christ. God still loves them and still has a plan for them forever. I love them too and I think everyone should support them in their fight for survival instead of letting them die. Thank you. Thank you very much for that 12minute opening from Rick Van. We'll kick it over to Andrew for his 12minute opening as well. All the
• 26:30 - 27:00 floor is all yours, Andrew. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Before we dive into the topic at hand, can we get a standing ovation for Ridben and his acceptance as an Orthodox Catacuman? Welcome home, brother. Thank you. And now it's time for you to
• 27:00 - 27:30 lose. The topic tonight is significantly narrower than I think many people are comfortable with. It's often in the ambiguity that people make emotional arguments instead of using logic and reason. And that's exactly what you will see tonight from my opponent, which you did. which is why I wanted to narrow the topic to avoid this ambiguity. You will see from him emotional rhetoric of rhetoric but no actual arguments which we didn't. The topic at hand is simple enough. The proposition is do Christians
• 27:30 - 28:00 have some sort of ought to support the political ideology of Zionism. Apostate prophet says yes I say no. For the purpose of this debate I will be using the most charitable definition of Zionism which is the one AP agreed to pre-debate so that everyone's clear. a movement for originally the reestablishment and now the development and protection of a Jewish nation which is now Israel. Seems straightforward enough. So, let's get into it. I will be presenting four logical arguments for why Christians have no such obligation, secular or otherwise, to support this
• 28:00 - 28:30 Jewish political endeavor. I will order them with my weakest objection first and my strongest objection last. Note, I have many more arguments than the ones I'll lay out tonight, but for the sake of time, I'll just stick with four. To preface these arguments, I'll explain that Rivven cannot make the claim that the religion of Judaism isn't part of Zionism. The right of return applies to both religious and ethnic Jews. Israeli law defines Jewish as someone who is born to a Jewish mother or who has converted to Judaism. In other words,
• 28:30 - 29:00 the very people group defined as both religious Jews and non-religious Jews, emphasizing all Jews have the right of return. According to legal expert Nancy C. Richmond in her analysis of Israel's law of return published in Penn State International Law Review. Quote, "While Israel is not a theocracy, the Jewish religion has a central role in Israeli politics because the main purpose of the country's establishment was to create an independent Jewish state." End quote. This analysis is shared by virtually every scholar I can find, pro or anti-Zionist, and is logical due to the
• 29:00 - 29:30 fact that if Zionism really had nothing to do with the Jewish religion, it wouldn't specify Jewish converts as being allowed this right of return. Very simple. This is an important preface as apostate prophets going to argue this as a secular state and that's simply untrue as a matter of fact. This leads me to argument one. There is no ought under Christian ethics to support other religions which specifically oppose doctrine and an establishment of a homeland for them. The Jewish religion is acknowledged as being incorrect by
• 29:30 - 30:00 every major Christian branch. This includes the Eastern Orthodox Church which apostate prophet is converting to as well as mainline protestant protestant and Roman Catholics. The specific problem here is particularly the denial of Jesus Christ being the Messiah as outlined in simple language in 1 John 2:23. No one who denies the son has the father. Whoever acknowledges the son has the father also. In simple terms, if you don't accept Jesus Christ as lord and savior, you don't worship the same god Christians
• 30:00 - 30:30 worship. Now this is also found in John 14:6. Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the father but through me." Christ as a messiah is a is central to the creed of every major Christian profession of faith. So my first argument concludes Christians ought not support it this heretical for Christian political ideology and supporting heretical ideology is itself sinful as it violates Christian ethics. The argument itself premise one Christians who support
• 30:30 - 31:00 heretical ideology denying the divinity of Christ are sinning. Premise two, religious Jews reject the divinity of Christ after he's revealed himself to them as the savior. Premise three, if religious Jews reject Christ, they are incorrect. And Christians who claim they aren't are spreading heresy. Conclusion, religious Jews are by Christian standards wrong and should not be supported by Christians who would be spreading a heresy. If they acknowledge Jewish theology is correct or give it support to reduce it to a much simpler
• 31:00 - 31:30 view. If one of my daughters had an only fans, I would still love her. We are commanded as we were commanded to love the Jews and the Muslims. But I'm not going to promote it. I'm not going to promote it. Argument two, the pragmatic argument and its response. Ribban focuses a lot on the pragmatic approach through geopolitics to make an aught for support for Christians towards Zionism, focusing on the anti-Muslim factor rather than the Christian ethics factor. The pragmatic argument from him is simple. If we have to choose to support the state of Israel, who are seemingly at least sympathetic to the West and
• 31:30 - 32:00 Christian nations, then we should or Muslims will dominate the region unopposed. There's no way. Um, and they are in no way sympathetic to the West. This is in my opinion his best argument, but it falls flat because it focuses on a false dialectic that relies on facious reasoning. In his view of pragmatism, he presents two choices where there are actually hundreds of choices uh or more. For instance, there isn't from a purely pragmatic approach any reason I can think of for the protectors of Israel,
• 32:00 - 32:30 in this case the West, to demand Israel open itself up to tens of thousands of Christian missionaries yearly and give them all infranchise status. Many, many thousands of Christians would love to live there. This would effectively end the quote Jewish state apparatus, which would appease Muslims and also create a dynamic for which Christians could begin their work of converting Jews to Christianity, which is their mandate. Jews would not be be uh persecuted under this arrangement and would still be able to freely practice Judaism as they saw fit and would be infranchised to vote
• 32:30 - 33:00 just like they are in all other nations. They also would have more protections from other nations who have vested interest in their settlers. Will this plan work? I have no idea. No clue. But to pretend it couldn't be done creates a false dialectic that only two choices exist where many choices exist. Ridan would have to effectively argue Israel would need to remain a Jewish state from a secular view, which to quote a thing he says often, that makes no sense. Why? Why does the state actually need to be a Jewish ethnostate and Jewish religious
• 33:00 - 33:30 state in order to protect Jews? That's actually rather stupid. Uh, all Western nations afford Jewish people the same rights as all of the citizens get. Redban from the pragmatic approach would actually have to argue that Israel remain a Jewish state from a secular standpoint, which he can't do. As long as the state protected Jews and they were allowed to practice a religion, why would it be a problem if it wasn't dominated by Jews themselves? To formalize this argument to Ridban, premise one, Jews deserve a homeland for both ethnic Jewish individuals and religious Jewish individuals. This is his view. Premise two, the Jewish
• 33:30 - 34:00 homeland is necessary because it protects Jews from persecution. Premise three, the Jewish homeland can't let in majorities of other groups for its own protection. Conclusion: Israel must remain an ethnic religious state with a supermajority of Jewish people. Now, you can see here the conclusion doesn't actually follow from the premise. The key here seems to be that Jewish individuals deserve protection from a pro uh atrocity. Uh but the case isn't being made why they would specifically need a Jewish state to do so. Early anti-Zionist Jews made similar counterarguments as well. Social
• 34:00 - 34:30 dominance in culture doesn't assure prevention from atrocity for Jews any better than being a protected class under a different dominant culture. This seemingly can be viewed right now by the conflict going on with Hamas. At least not logically and not pragmatically. Also, we could use accelerated pragmatism here to point out the absurdity of this false dialectic by simply pointing out it could be pragmatic to nuke the entire Middle East, Israel included, and no longer worry about Middle Eastern conflicts and cultures ever. Uh, but my guess is most
• 34:30 - 35:00 people would rightly state that would be against Christian ethics, which rejects pragmatism for Christian ethics, which RVan also should do. Now, even in easily dismantling the pragmatic argument, I will simply now grant it and the false dialectic of a binary choice to simply point out that even if I do, it still doesn't provide an aught for why Christians must support Zionism, which is both hilarious and ironic, but does provide us for not for Christians to not support it because you're being presented with a false binary. My last
• 35:00 - 35:30 argument is the most important. It combines two arguments together for the sake of time. This argument focuses on the biggest not for Christians and requires a preface. The first preface is that Israel refuses to disclose if it has nuclear weapons and will neither confirm nor deny if they do nor allow any inspection of them if they do. Our own CIA has confirmed they do, but they don't disclose it. Second, the Israeli government works handinhand with the Temple Institute and American Evangelicals. Also, there is an organization called Kufi or Christians Unified for Israel. Goofy has 10 million
• 35:30 - 36:00 members and Israel doesn't even have 10 million citizens. Goofy spreads the false heresy of dispensationalism and host chararismatic doctrine heresy as well. By Ridvan's own faith, he knows these are heresies. Goofy's on over 300 college campuses and growing. Their stated goal is to educate millions of Americans on these heresies. according to their own website quote through our 16 social media accounts, websites, blogs, daily briefs to bring in groups of pastors and next generation influencers and students to Israel every year. Guys like Charlie Kirk and dare I
• 36:00 - 36:30 say Ridan and David Wood and others to quote those would be the types of influencers who would be their target. Not saying that that Kufi paid for any of that. I'm just saying that would be the target to reach thousands through Kufi Weekly and Israel Collective uh videos on YouTube. He's brought in over a thousand major influencers, including celebrities. All of this is right from their site. Now, what do these people want, you ask? Well, they This is going to blow your mind, but this is what they
• 36:30 - 37:00 want. They want to assist with the fulfillment of biblical prophecy to bring about a new false messiah and usher in an Armageddon. Not kidding. Not kidding. Now, the Temple Institute's goal in Israel, using both private and Israeli state money, is to rebuild the third temple and name a Messiah, which Christians know is a false messiah. Israel, the supposed secular state, gives large swats of money to the Temple Institute, and many government officials back this undertaking. So, remember when I said Christians ought not support heresies? Well, here's why. Right now,
• 37:00 - 37:30 this second, major personalities on the right, such as Charlie Kirk, most of the Daily Wire, even perhaps David Wood and Ridban themselves, who I like, know for sure that any Messiah named by Israel will be Antichrist. They know it. Now, perhaps not the Antichrist, but the spirit of Antichrist will be with whoever this person is, and they have to denounce Christians definitionally. Have to. So to recap, the supposed secular Zionist government is giving money to the
• 37:30 - 38:00 religious Zionists in Israel and get American support to do this with both American government money and direct aid with mega preachers like John Hegy leading the charge in America with Kufi to back this endeavor to usher in Antichrist. So Ridban, I will see any argument you make for why Christians ought to support uh Zionism and I will raise you one antichrist as not not. This is the most powerful ought not for Christians to support Zionism and it is
• 38:00 - 38:30 really the one argument I want Rivan to address as it's my primary argument. So the formal argument goes like this. Premise one, Christians should not support false messiah or antichrist ever. Premise two, Zionists are attempting to name a false messiah. Premise three, secular and religious Zionists are working together to bring about biblical prophecy and name a false messiah. Conclusion: Christians shouldn't support Zionism, especially not a Zionist nation with an antichrist at its head and
• 38:30 - 39:00 nukes, which it won't acknowledge. False messiah, head of a state with nukes. Genius Riddven. Now, to end it very quickly with this, I'm going to enjoy this spirited debate. Um, but I really want you to address this argument. With that, I'll the uh the floor is back. Go ahead. [Applause]
• 39:00 - 39:30 Much thank you very much gentlemen for those openings. We'll jump into the fiveminute rebuttals. AP the floor is all yours. Thank you. Okay. Yeah. Um, so when Andrew announced that he was going to have a very very amazing um, opening speech here, I was expecting something incredible. What I heard is not very impressive to be very honest. Is anybody actually impressed? Because here's the
• 39:30 - 40:00 issue. He said that uh that I'm going to rely on uh on pragmatism. Wrong. False. He said that I'm going to argue from emotion. Maybe I mixed emotion into it rightly so. But I argued on emotion. based on scripture. Number three, he listed a bunch of things that I never even addressed, that I never even think about. And he even made the false assumption that I would call Israel a secular state. Israel is not a secular state. Israel is in in some way secular, but Israel is very very explicitly from
• 40:00 - 40:30 the very beginning of its foundation partly built on religious grounds. This is acknowledged from the very beginning. It is a compromise that was made in the history of of Israel and the founding of Israel that it would be partially founded upon uh religious Jewish values and partially on on secular values because the secular ones were the ones who advocated for the building of Israel but the religious ones were also uh in on it and wanted also uh their rights to be protected which only makes sense. There is one big issue that uh Andrew
• 40:30 - 41:00 here is um has a problem with. In my opening statement, I never ever argued that it is an obligation for Christians to support Israel. I did say uh Christians should I I did say it would be the right thing. I did say it would be morally right. I never ever made it look like it is uh an obligation for Christians or it is within their religion that they that they must support the state of Israel. I argued that within certain things that we read
• 41:00 - 41:30 within the Bible, which by the way, he never even came close to addressing. And I'm sure he will not come close to addressing because he can't really get out of that. Uh it would be the right thing to do for Christians not to stand by and let those people die whom God, if you open Romans 9:11, still loves despite their unbelief. I want everyone to uh to read this again and again. Open your own Bibles. Open the Bible. Open Romans 9 through11. Read it again. St.
• 41:30 - 42:00 Paul condemns their unbelief and still says that God loves them and still says that God has a plan for them. Even those who have rejected and who have fallen into disbelief and who were broken off. He says it is a mystery of God that he uh took the wild branches, the Gentiles and put them into the tree and he broke off the natural branches which are the Jews and just like that he will bring
• 42:00 - 42:30 them back in add them back to the tree. This is precisely what Romans 11 says. The narrative here is that these Jews, not just Jews who follow a certain type of Judaism, not just Jews who follow this Judaism or who do this or who do that. He says, "Jews by flesh, my fellow Israelites." That's literally what he's saying. He's never talking about a distinction of religious belief among Jews. He says Jews by flesh. So when Andrew talks about how um lots of these
• 42:30 - 43:00 people are secular people, they don't even believe in Judaism. It doesn't matter. St. Paul talks about Jews by flesh. Do you want to contest that? I would not contest it because that's what my Bible says. This is not Protestant reasoning. Sit down and look at the scripture. This is literally what it says. Uh I never said that supporting uh Jews or supporting Israel requires that we uh somehow acknowledge their theology as correct. This is uh ridiculous. This is absurd. It is facious. Nobody is required to do that. What we what we would be uh in in our right to do is to
• 43:00 - 43:30 look at the Middle East. Another thing to address here by the way which I uh mentioned in my opening statement, Israel significantly treats Christians better than the other side does. Would you rather support the other side or would you rather support the Jewish people? I would rather support those that my Bible describes as still beloved by God and those who have a track record of actually protecting Christian people. Whereas all the other Muslim nations together have a history of oppressing
• 43:30 - 44:00 them. And if they gain the power and yes, if you don't support Israel, then you are supporting the other side. If they regain power, it will only lead to more oppression of your fellow Christians. This is not pragmatism. It is about caring for your fellow Christians and caring for those that God says he still loves. Not pragmatism. I'm not sure where you get pragmatism here. Uh Andrew says that um there's an alternative of Christians going and settling there. Please let's not be ridiculous. Um so
• 44:00 - 44:30 that's that would be the least likely option. Finally, rebuilding of the temple and the antichrist. The best polls put the number of people who want to reestablish the temple at uh a maximum of 30%. Are you serious? Oh, is that all? Thank you very much for that five minute rebuttal. We'll kick it over to Andrew for his fiveminute rebuttal as well. Yeah. So, I mean this is a no-brainer. He didn't actually address my arguments. Notice that I put my arguments even in simple premise form
• 44:30 - 45:00 so that even you even you could have addressed them. So, it was very simple. He did not actually address why it is Christians have an ought to support a nation which he admits is attempting to create Antichrist. They're going to they're going to name a false messiah. Any Messiah that the Jewish nation names by definition has to be false under Christianity. By definition, that false messiah also has to condemn Christians,
• 45:00 - 45:30 right? Because how could he not if he's the Messiah? He'll have to say that Christ was not divine. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Rid van. So the thing is is he also brings up multiple false dialectics, right? Again, false dialectic after false dialectic. First, I was not saying that Ridban takes the position that uh that this is a secular state, but that even if he did, the argument wouldn't matter. Right? So, I'm doing an internal critique. I'm arguing both sides to still show how I'm correct
• 45:30 - 46:00 and you're not. Uh when he dives into some of these other arguments, let's go through them real quick. He says, "God still loves the Jews. God loves everybody. He wants Muslims back in the fold as well." Okay? It's not just It's not just about bringing Jewish people back in the fold. It's about bringing everybody back into the fold. It's another false dialectic. The church The church is Israel. We're not talking about a specific bloodline people group, okay? That's not what we're discussing.
• 46:00 - 46:30 And that's when you're talking about St. Paul. And we can bring this up especially when you're talking about the cutting off the limbs of the tree. Paul is specifically saying that he himself would give up everything if it meant that his people who rejected Christ would come back to Christ. I would love that. But Ridan, they haven't. And the temple institute which is there and I need you to acknowledge this Raven is trying to name antichrist. You said only 30% want to name. Is that all
• 46:30 - 47:00 30%. This is just an insignificant number. 30%. And it's by the way he's also not telling you this. It's increasing. It's not decreasing. It's increasing. And they're getting more positions in government. And he knows they're getting more positions in government. How can we have a nuclear armed nation that the United States and Christians in the United States is supporting who wants to name an antichrist? Please answer that question,
• 47:00 - 47:30 Raven. Please, pretty please. with sugar on top. Why ought I send my big American dollars which I want to give to my kids for college and other things to a nation that uh wants to name the antithesis the the antithetical the entire opposite of Christianity antichrist. Need that answered. My primary argument for an ought not need something better than well because geopolitically if uh if uh
• 47:30 - 48:00 Israel is not there bad things bad things could happen. It's like yeah they could maybe they maybe they don't though. That's a false dialectic. It's called a false binary. You keep presenting false choices. If this if a happens then b assuredly will happen. You don't know that. You have no idea if that's the case. you're just making that uh um you know kind of assertion without even admitting either that it's facious argumentation. It's you can look up the fallacy. It's a false binary fallacy.
• 48:00 - 48:30 And with that, please I'll yield the time right back over. I need an answer to this. We'll actually be jumping into the crossfire section. It's about 15 minutes. Sean from uncensored uh I should say Sean the leader of uncensored America asked me to give you guys a long leash. So let rip for 15 minutes. The floor is yours. Do you acknowledge Andrew that uh that the Jews are actually in an extermination war for their survival right now? Uh yeah I
• 48:30 - 49:00 would say that they're in a war for uh survival. Sure. Okay. So uh do you also acknowledge that um if they don't have the support that they need uh the other side wants to exterminate them which you just acknowledged basically and that they could be exterminated as a result. Even if I were let's just say I'll just grant the whole thing. So I'll just grant for the sake of argument that if the United States were to pull out support from Israel tomorrow that the nation would be exterminated. Let's just grant it. Right? As horrible as this is nobody wants to see anything like this. That's still not an odd for why Christians have to support him. Riven
• 49:00 - 49:30 it's still not an claim. You're still not making the moral a claim for white Christians have some moral duty to step in on behalf of a secular Zionist state that has religious components that wants to name Antichrist. Can we please get to that? Do you acknowledge that uh if that if Israel is destroyed and the Jews are eradicated in the region, this will lead to the reestablishment of the historical enemy of Christianity, which also led to the destruction of Orthodox Christians in the US. It could, but also it could. Listen, I'll give you the logical
• 49:30 - 50:00 acknowledgement. It could. Can you give me the logical acknowledgement that Western nations can also prevent this from happening even if Israel is not there? Logically, they can't actually. Logically, they can't. No. No. No. Riden, listen. Not saying that it would be the case. Only that logically it could be an extremely low likelihood. It's ridiculous to even talk. Why are we talking about then it's a false binary? Is is there is there a is there a fantasy? Like, do you think that Christians would actually go there and take over? If you if you grant that there's other possibilities just with lower likelihood, then you're admitting
• 50:00 - 50:30 you're engaging in the fallacy of a false binding. So then let's let's do this. That's it. Let's do this. If if the if the Jews in the region are destroyed, do you think it is much more likely that the Muslims will take over or do you think it's much more likely that the West will step in and somehow stop this? Even if I again even if I grant the argument for likelihood, it's still a false binary because you have admitted that there's other options which also could be utilized. So you have just admitted that it is extremely likely in such a case that the that the Muslims will take over and reestablish a caliphate which has which is hellbent on
• 50:30 - 51:00 fighting and oppressing when the Jews are done then the Christians are next. There's a saying in the Middle East which goes Muslim first the Sunday people then first the Saturday people then don't filibuster do you think I support Muslims? You are supporting them you are supporting them by not supporting Israel. That's basically what you're doing. Okay. Then so by not supporting Israel, I'm supporting Muslims, right? Then by by not supporting Muslims, you're supporting Antichrist. Does that make sense? No, it doesn't make sense. Does that make sense, Riven? No, it doesn't make sense,
• 51:00 - 51:30 Riven. It doesn't make sense because it's a facious argument, doesn't make any sense. Makes no sense because what you're because what you're suggesting, you you think that the existence of Israel itself would lead because of certain plans, certain conspiracy theories to the rise of the conspiracy theory. Let's go through. planning of the antichrist to come. Because of this, because of this, you want to risk the people that God loves. By the way, very, very big issue here. I specifically said
• 51:30 - 52:00 that the Jews are the only people according to Paul himself who was especially beloved by God. So, you're saying Jew for their sake of Yes. For the sake of Yes. And do you do you think that the Orthodox Church supports for the sake of their ancestors? Do you think that the Orthodox Church believes that uh Jews have magic Jew blood which puts them above Orthodox Christians? No. Then your point is moved. What does what does what does Paul say? Does he say that they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers? Uh well, yeah, but you're also What does that mean? What does that mean? Hang on. But you're What does that mean? For the
• 52:00 - 52:30 sake of their forefathers. I'll grant it. What does that mean? I'll grant it. You are also beloved for the sake of your forefathers. Oh, the Jews are also beloved for the sake of your forefathers cuz there's no magic Jew blood ridden. All right, let me read this. There's no m It's not magic. It's not made out of magic. It's made out of the same thing as my blood and your blood. Now, let's read this. So, Paul says that they are especially Hang on. Hang on. Before you divert a few minutes. What? What? What do you mean? You never I'll dive into this. You never address this topic. My main argument is about antichrist. Here
• 52:30 - 53:00 is your main argument. It's about antichrist. Ribbon, look at this. Can hang on. He equates this. He equates this to my forefather. Look at this. St. Paul says, "For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, the kinsmen according to the flesh." He says, "Magic blood." He's making fun of Paul here. Actually, I'm not making fun of any. They are Israelites by flesh. This is what he's making fun of. This is not what I'm saying. And to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, the
• 53:00 - 53:30 promises, the patriarchs, the race according to the flesh is the Christ who is God over all. Blessed forever. Amen. Does anybody else fall into this category, Andrew? Except for the Jews. Yes, we no are Israel. We are beloved of God. We are the fulfillment of the promise. Paul talks Paul We are the fulfillment of the promise. Paul talks about your own faith. Paul talks about two Israel. If you have an understanding of what he talks about here, you would see this in an easy in the Orthodox study Bible which says that he's talking about two Israel. One is the natural
• 53:30 - 54:00 above orthodox. One is the spiritual ism. Okay. Are Jews above orthodox Christian? Doesn't matter. Are they? Doesn't matter. Are they? Doesn't matter. Answer the question. What is it? Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Do you acknowledge are Jews above Orthodox Christians? Do you acknowledge that Christians won't answer the question? Look, I need you to answer the question. Are Jews above Orthodox Christians? No. Okay. No. Thank you. Do you acknowledge That's the end of that's done. It's done. Okay. Can you answer this question since I answered your question? Do you acknowledge that according to Paul, Jews
• 54:00 - 54:30 are especially beloved because of their ancestry above all people? But Paul's also making a demonstration that Thank you. I would. Thank you. So, Jews are especially beloved. So, are you especially also especially beloved due to your ancestor? Were my ancestors given the covenants? Were they given the the law? Were they given Orthodox Christians? No. So what makes what makes Orthodox Christians then equal with the most beloved of God? You're strawmaning it. You're strawmaning it. You don't understand the logic here. I say that Paul clearly says that they are
• 54:30 - 55:00 especially beloved aside from those who are especially who are the spiritual Israel. The Jews because of their ancestry are especially beloved. What does especially mean you want to basically deny what Paul is saying? What does especially beloved mean? They are especially beloved for what? Does that mean that they're loved more than by God than you, Riven? Actually, if you want to think about it in comparison to somebody to somebody who is not a Christian and who is not a Jewish, yes, they are beloved more by
• 55:00 - 55:30 God. Okay. So then what you're saying is that just by the fact that they have magic Jew blood, God loves them more than you. Now, you are making fun of the Bible. No, that's not Listen, that's not biblical. That's not what's actually being said here. Now, I'll step through all of this with you if you want, right? But that's not what's being said. to what you just admitted is that you put Jewish people above Orthodox Christians because you think God loves them more. No, I explicitly said I explicitly said they are not above and I explicitly just compared them to non-Christians. You heard that, right? Everybody has heard
• 55:30 - 56:00 that Jews in comparison to other non-Christians are especially beloved to God. This is literally what Paul says. You might scoff about it as much as you want. I cited St. John. I cited St. Augustine. I cited St. Pearl. cited a recent Orthodox hierarch Metropolitan Kalistos where Metropolitan Kalistos is the very same that God loves a Jewish person because he's Jewish more than you. Yes. No, he won't. Yes, he won't. That's literally what No, he won't. Nobody's ever going to say that ever. Here's the thing. So, here's the thing,
• 56:00 - 56:30 Andrew. If you can't go through this with If you can't accept what the Bible says and what the hierarchs say, dude, you can't entire debate. We have to go through the scripture. Do you want to go through it? You never answered my question. Okay, let's start with the 11. Never answer my argument. You have an answer to mine. My very first argument. Here's my contention. I answered all your questions. You never answer. Can we talk about Antichrist then? What What is it to talk about? Okay. Can I Can I ask you to contend with my argument? Here's the argument. I literally put it in premise form. Let's do it again. Okay. So, let's do that again. Yeah. Yeah.
• 56:30 - 57:00 It's very important that this actually gets answered. And I'm happy to go through the scripture with you. You didn't understand it the first time. Let's do it again. Okay. Yeah. You never actually answered to it. I answered it. No, you didn't. Okay. So uh you agree that Zionists are attempting to name a false messiah that that is a critical function of Zionist no I would say religious Jews can ask can I even ask the question you just asked it I have to qualify so that you understand what's being asked okay sure okay so premise one Christians are uh should not support
• 57:00 - 57:30 a false messiah or an antichrist do you agree with that you do yeah okay premise two zionists are attempting to name a messiah No. Okay. So then can you explain why the Zionist government gives money to the Temple Institute who has a stated goal of naming a messiah? You are talking about Zionists as a general term. Zionists are all those who support the existence of Israel. That would be the secondary that would be the majority of the Israeli population. That's not what Zionism means. That is literally what Zionist. No. What you said Zionism
• 57:30 - 58:00 meant, and I'll give you your exact definition. It meant an establishment of a Jewish state. And you agreed it couldn't be secular. It had to be religious and it had to be secular. So if the religious and the secular are both working towards a goal, then what is it? I never said that. You're not paying attention to the detail. Okay, I can't wait to hear it. Establishing establishing a Jewish state, a state for Jews in the land of Israel, right? The same thing is wanted is wanted by by conservative Jews, by Orthodox Jews, by by atheist Jews. All all Jews want this.
• 58:00 - 58:30 Jews want this. So all it does not require it to be completely in alignment with certain aspects of orthodox Jewish uh theology. Got it. Totally agree. So we've established it. So when you say Zionists want this then you are overgeneralizing because when you say all that necessarily includes who has a right to return religious Jews as well. And if the the secular Jews are funding with money the religious Jews towards Xgoal that would be all Jews doing this.
• 58:30 - 59:00 The logic here, the logic in question is that you are saying that all that basically you could make the same argument that all Christians want to establish an apocalyptic Israel in the middle. Why? Why? Because why? Because Protestants are Christians and they believe in an esquetology that includes the reestablishment of Israel. You're not making a nuanced nuance. Is the federal government funding these Protestants and bringing about this Armageddon? Failing to make a nuanced distinction between certain making the
• 59:00 - 59:30 nuance distinction. Let me respond. Is the is the United States federal government funding these uh these groups these uh these free groups who are moving who are moving towards dispensationalism? Let me ask you this question. Riven, can I ask it before you answer it? Sure. Okay, great. So, is the United States government funding Protestants to usher in Armageddon? I have no idea. You have no idea. Are they? Yeah, the answer is no. But is it the case that Zionists are indeed funding the Temple Institute who does want to bring in Antichrist? Some Zionists. Yes. Not all sides. Not all.
• 59:30 - 60:00 Would you like to go through what the state of Israel gives the Temple Institute or are you denying that they give them money? No, of course you're giving them money. Okay, great. Antichrist, here's my question to you. You say Zionists. Do secular Jews who are also Zionists uh generally agree with the rebuilding of the third temple? Uh well, if if it is the case, do they that secular Jews are funding? Do they agree with the building of the of the third temple? Maybe not. Not. Okay, fantastic. So when you say Zionists then you are overgeneralizing and making a mistake in I'm not because Zionism
• 60:00 - 60:30 includes all Jews. No we just established that secular Jews don't support the building of the So is there secular Zionism and other types of Zionism? Yes there is Zionism in general religion. Can we maybe go with a definition like Zionism means that Jews want to reestablish a homeland and they're calling this homeland Israel and they want to protect it. Can we like go with that definition? Andrew, did you not listen to me? Are you not listening? I said it right here, Andrew. Do you want me to read this again, Andrew? Yes. Do you want me to read this again? Read
• 60:30 - 61:00 it again. Zionism alone simply means the establishment and protection of a land, a country, a state where Jews can live freely, a Jewish state in what is now known as Israel. Does this mean it has to be a Jewish religious state? Have you not listened to We've got it. So then this would apply to secular Jews and religious Jews. Yes. Yes. So So then if it's secular all if it's secular Jews supporting religious Jews by giving them money right by giving
• 61:00 - 61:30 them money so that they can establish antichrist then that would be Zionists doing it right so because logic logic some Zionists support a certain religious movement that most Zionists by the way do not support we are therefore to conclude that all Zionists by definition support the rebuilding of the third temp is it increasing it doesn't make any sense what I say his main argument would be doesn't make any sense It makes total sense and I'll explain it. I say it doesn't make any sense because you're not making any sense. Should I, as a
• 61:30 - 62:00 Christian, send my support over to a country where 30% of them want to introduce Antichrist? Yes. Okay. Why not? I don't know where else to go with that. I don't know where else to go with No, I have a question to you to you, Andrew. Where else do I go with that? I have a question to you, Andrew. When when when St. Paul says that they are still beloved and that God still has a plan to reconcile them and to bring to graft them back into a tree. Do you think that he's talking about all the good Jews or is he just talking about uh he's talking about what what happens when they finally bend their knee to
• 62:00 - 62:30 Jesus Christ their Lord and Savior? Wonderful. Wonderful news. And now it's my follow-up question, Andrew. Now is my follow-up question. If you allow the enemies of both Christians and Jews to try and eradicate them, do you think that you will do God and Paul in the Bible service here? I'm sorry. If you think that Jews have magic Jew blood and are therefore the most beloved of God, isn't it the case that even if we didn't support Israel, God would love them so much that he would never let their enemies stand down? If a if a robber
• 62:30 - 63:00 comes into your home, Yeah. Uh you could just leave it up to God to handle it. You don't have to do anything. That doesn't make any sense. You are still like you're the most beloved. Does it sound like you're the most beloved? You are still supposed to fulfill the obligation. Why is my obligation right? Great. Let's talk about what is morally right. An ought. Why? Again, give me a moral paradigm from a moral paradigm. Andrew, Christians, even though you agreed with me on premise one, should not support any type of false messiah. Should not support the naming of any
• 63:00 - 63:30 type of false messiah. Andrew, you and your government need to send tons of money to a nation which 30% of it by your own admission. I think it's higher and growing by the way, but I'll just grant 30% wants to name false messiah. Raven, can you please in a very concise way tell me why it is that I need to send my support and my money to a nation which is funding that endeavor. Yes. Very simply. Yeah. Very, very simply. But then we actually have to wrap up and go to the audience Q&A. Because uh the Jews were always expecting a Messiah. Even at the time of St. Paul, they were expecting a Messiah. And when St. Paul
• 63:30 - 64:00 talked about how he still has love for them and how God still loves them and how God will will naturally graft them in. And even when all the saints that I just mentioned talked about how Jews are expecting a Messiah and the Christ will come and reconcile them, they clearly did talk about all Jews who are still expecting a false messiah. Therefore, you should support them. Okay. Wait a second. Wait a second. Who said that we shouldn't love Jews for being Jewish? It's fine that we can love Muslims and Jews and atheists and everybody. You're finished.
• 64:00 - 64:30 But this is that was a ridiculous answer though. I'm done. To give you a chance to respond. We do have Q&A. Ridiculous answer. Folks, the way this is going to work for the Q&A is if you come up the middle and stand right in front of me, we'll actually give you a chance to give a couple of follow-up responses if you'd like, as long as they're short and pathy. Also hold the mic just in case things get weird. Okay, ready? Please come up with your questions and then if you could put your toes right here in front of the tape.
• 64:30 - 65:00 Sorry for your loss. Well, I was just going to ask Andrew for his answer to that. The cope is painful, Ren. The cope is painful. Although I was just going to ask Andrew his response for the what he just said. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, it's super simple. Saying that we need to love everybody, right? Regardless of the the heinous things that they might have even engaged in. Nobody said that you as a Christian are not you're not obligated to have love for people who are Jewish and Muslim and everything else. That doesn't provide an
• 65:00 - 65:30 ought for why Christians have to support Zionism though. It literally doesn't. He gave a descriptor instead. He said descriptively this is the case. You can't get an ugh from an is giving me a descriptor doesn't address the ought that Christians should do anything. It's never about loving them, Andrew. It's about supporting those. It's about them being extra loved. And by the way, we'll allow you guys rebuttals throughout if you'd like. Yeah. I just have a curious question on um AP's position on the Jews
• 65:30 - 66:00 of Israel. How do you know that the Jews in Israel today are the same contextual Jews in the Bible? It doesn't really matter because um yes, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter at all. Why does it matter? And and how do you want to prove that they are actually the same Jews? Do you want to prove that by blood? Do you want to prove that by tradition? We have um in the Bible when Paul deals with the people in his time who are Israelites, who are Israelites by his flesh, he talks about those who still hold on to
• 66:00 - 66:30 the traditions. That's what he points out. He says that they have a very great zeal for God and for the law. That's what he says about those that he considers evil. Um and he points out that because of their traditions, they take their traditions so far that they fail to see the truth in the true Messiah. Those Jews continued after the fall of the second temple to still hold on to their traditions and to develop a new tradition which is called rabbinic Judaism which started as soon as the temple fell. Those same Jews held on to their traditions and continued to be the
• 66:30 - 67:00 very same Jews that we have today. The Judaism that started when the temple fell was rabbitic Judaism. The Jews that we have today are rabbitic Jews. They are the same Jews. There's arguments to be made against this, including that they're not doing sacrifices in a tabernacle or in the temple. So, it may not be the true succession of rabbitic Judaism. But even granting the fact that there's a possibility that it is, it doesn't really matter because when we're talking about Paul here, he says he says bloodline itself is irrelevant. That's
• 67:00 - 67:30 not But what do you think Paul was talking about when he said my people? Do you think he was talking about some future people that wasn't a part of the people group he's addressing right then? No. No, he wasn't. That that's nowhere in the scripture here. It actually is. Well, then you've refuted your argument twice because now you're saying what he's saying is there's a future group of people who could be considered Israel, right? Who are not the group of people he's talking about right this second. I would say Raven that we know who that people group is the church and
• 67:30 - 68:00 Christians. No, because he's talking about those who have rejected Christ. How can that be the church and and how are they going to be reconciled? How can the church be those who rejected Christ? How can the church be those who are in sin and who are in their rejection and who are enemies because of of you because of the uh because of the gospel but still beloved to God because of their ancestors. How can that be the church again? When we move that doesn't make any sense move. So when we move into this what I'm arguing to you is when you say a reconciliation for these people I want
• 68:00 - 68:30 them to come back into God. Okay that's what I want. I want that more than anything. I also want it but for that they have to be alive. Yeah. Riven. Riven, does that mean that I have some moral obligation? How much how much treasure should I give? Riven, I give you a chance to support them. You got to go to the next. How much is that? It that that's a trivial issue which we can talk about a dollar. Do you agree that we should support them? 50 cents. No, that you haven't provided me an as yet for why. If you don't agree that we should support them, then what's the point of talking about the details of how we should support them and because
• 68:30 - 69:00 we need to start with an I hate to do this, but because we have so many questions, gentlemen, need to start with an we're going to go to the next question. Hey uh Raven, congrats first on joining the church. Um I just have a quick disambiguation question for you. Are you would you make the argument that your ex Jesus of Romans 9 through11 um would be supported by the majority of Petristic sources or even the majority of modern biblical scholarship outside of dispensational circles? And if so, could you elucidate on that? Uh well, as said, I when I went when I talked about it, when I went through my script, I
• 69:00 - 69:30 appealed to uh some uh very very important figures in early church history. uh as Orthodox Christians I'm sure Andrew also knows that uh St. John Chrysum is an ex extremely respected figure in terms of his homalies he the one who wrote a homaly against the Jews written yes exactly exactly that one exactly that one uh you know what he says in his homaly on Romans 11 he says if you want to cherry pick it I wouldn't advise it well it's not cherry advise it it's not cherry picking because what he says is that is that what St. Paul says about the Jews being grafted back in it
• 69:30 - 70:00 will come true and he says if it has not happened yet then you then uh you must be you must be sure that it is bound to happen. I want to point out here that St. John Chrisman is talking in the fourth century long after the fall of the second temple. So this also answers the other question here those are the Jews that exist here today the rabbinicic Jews by tradition. Another point uh St. Kir of uh Alexandria St. Augustine supports it very very well. He says that their existence is uh
• 70:00 - 70:30 basically a proof of God's work and that they will be eventually reconciled. And as said uh late metropolitan kalistas were also very much he even goes further. I don't even say this he goes further and says they are still God's chosen people and also says that you shouldn't fall into heresy by spreading around any of the false gospel that inside of this they are blaspheming the Holy Spirit by what? by denying the divinity of Christ. This is also stated Raven you leave all of this out for the
• 70:30 - 71:00 Hang on let me finish man I didn't interrupt you once. Sure. Go ahead. I'm so what you do So what you do here right is you creating again these false dialectics by cherrypicking. The truth of the matter is is that even if we were to grant everything you just said as being true and that modern rabbis are the spiritual successor one way or the other or the bloodline successors that Paul is talking about here. I'm still willing to grant it. still doesn't give an aught for why we must support Zionism, a political ideology which includes secular and religious Jews. It doesn't. I just want to establish one
• 71:00 - 71:30 thing here which is very very curious because you seem to object to it but don't really address it. When I site uh Metropolitan Kalisto Square, you just said he also said this or something like that. No, I was talking about St. John. Okay. Do you acknowledge that uh hierarchs like him in orthodoxy, in Greek orthodoxy, respected around the world, would naturally use words such as that we should have love and no disrespect toward the Jewish people, the uh people of Israel, because they are still beloved and they are still God's chosen people. Do you agree that this is
• 71:30 - 72:00 a normal Yes. It's it well, it's normal enough for um for people in higher up orthodox positions to say that we should love basically every chosen people. Andrew chosen people. Yes. But what does he mean by that? Does he mean chosen people? Do you think that he means what they mean by what he means by chosen people is they have extra love over orthodox Christians and they have special Jew blood. Do you think that that's what he think he means? I hate to say this, but we do have we have to go to the next question just because we've we've gotten deep here.
• 72:00 - 72:30 Um, a big part of your argument was saying something about the um support of the of the state of Israel is because if they didn't have a state, they wouldn't be able to continue their existence. Did the Israel did Jews exist before the establishment of the state of Israel? Yeah, but I'm I'm clearly talking about uh the Jews who are currently in the region. If they fell and if they no longer had the protection of their state, they would probably cease existing because that's what the other side promises. We have Jews around the world still who are outside of Israel.
• 72:30 - 73:00 How were the people there in order to establish a state in the first place? Well, you have people who lived there. You have people who traveled there, who uh went from around the world there, right? How does it logically follow that they're unable to continue their people without their people? I don't understand the question. He's saying if they lived in all these other countries I understand that I don't understand I don't understand the issue here. They specifically went there. The Zionist movement was specifically about how uh living as a Jew in these different countries throughout history has been very difficult as we can all know and
• 73:00 - 73:30 see. So, so when they so, so when they went there, they wanted to establish a state where they can finally live in peace without being at the mercy of others. Now, you have a large Jewish population in Israel. If Israel suddenly fell to fell today, then the Jewish population that is there would be eradicated by the Islamists in the region. Now, there would still be there would still be Jews left on the other side of the world, but that doesn't really take away from the fact to create the state. Yeah, it doesn't take away from the fact that logically follows what I'm trying to say. Yeah. So I can I can respond to
• 73:30 - 74:00 this as well very quickly because Rivven's not going to. He just this shortcircuited him. So the question was actually a good question. The question was, "Wait a second. Didn't Jews exist before there was an Israel? So how is it that even if Israel wasn't there, Jews would just stop existing? That makes no sense." Great question, right? Seems like it's a performative contradiction in his worldview, which is why he doesn't want to address it. Here's the truth, right? And nobody's calling for there to not be a state of Israel, by the way. But if we were to hypothetically even say that Israel was
• 74:00 - 74:30 um destroyed and Jews again had to disperse or were scattered, that doesn't mean that they would be uh Jews themselves would be destroyed. They would go back to other nations where they were before. Now uh here's the issue. I was actually answering your question, but if you let me speak without trying to interject every second, I would actually answer your question properly because I understand the question that you asked. The question you asked is, "Weren't Jews around before?" uh didn't so weren't they around before? How were they able to establish this this this land? Did
• 74:30 - 75:00 their existence really depend on the land? If the land is destroyed, uh does that really mean they would all go extinct and so on? Here's the issue. You have a significant part of the Jewish population that currently lives in the land of Israel. If the land of Israel would be destroyed, a significant part of the Jewish population would be eradicated. That means a small amount of Jewish people who are outside of Israel would of course still be left as the the amount of those who survived the massacre that would unfold which Andrew Wilson here never actually acknowledges
• 75:00 - 75:30 uh would of course survive and run away. Do you really how is it how is it a reasonable or proper point to simply allow for that to happen instead of protecting those people when it is so clear don't live in Israel so clear the other side wants to eradicate them the majority of Jews don't live in Israel Raven what does it matter because you just said that it would take out a substantial port of the population the majority it's not even the majority of the population that's the point nobody's calling for Israel to get wiped out at
• 75:30 - 76:00 all I'm saying is that there's No ought for Christians to support a nation that wants to to have antichrist by at least 30% by your own. So it depends on their numbers. That's very very funny. What? We'll give you one last follow up then we're going to go to the next question. Yeah, you you made a false statement and then I'll sit. But you made a false statement. Neither Paul nor St. John Chrisum places the Jewish people higher than any other non-Christian. I never said um Yes, you did, Raven. No, no, no,
• 76:00 - 76:30 no. All right, hold on. We got to We got to give I never said they are more special than Orthodox. Yes, you did. You said yes. Will you let me speak? Dude, don't lie. I never said they are more important than Orthodox Christians. That's what I was saying. No, you said God loved them more because he keeps insisting that I said that. You said God loved them more. I asked you point blank. You said yes. Andrew, I'm clarifying it for you here right now. I never said and I will never say that God especially loves the Jewish people more than Orthodox Christians. I never said that. What is what I clearly said and you can you can go back and
• 76:30 - 77:00 listen to this again and again. Yes, we can. I can make a clip. I can make a compilation out of this for you. I said again and again that they are more beloved especially beloved among the non-Christians. Remember when I asked they die or did I not say that? Do you remember when I asked I want to go to the next especially more beloved than the other non-Christians the other non-Christian? I want to go to the next question just because okay just real quick I see that you have your references there. Both of you guys have made sorry gota eat it. Both of you guys have made quite a
• 77:00 - 77:30 few claims. Yeah. Both sides and some of them got to be fraudulent because of course they contradict each other. So I see references from you. I don't see a single reference from you. All I hear are your claims and I have no sources to go on. Yeah. You remember how I cited in the debate the references? So you you can go back and hang on. Let me I'll answer the question, right? I did cite the references. Just because I don't put them up in a PowerPoint presentation for the purposes of for the purposes of time
• 77:30 - 78:00 doesn't mean I didn't verbally cite them. But most of my claims that I'm making he agrees with. He agrees that there's at least a large amount at least by his admission of Jews inside of Israel up to 30% who want to name Antichrist. I gave four logical arguments. What references should I give you for logical arguments except me? any beyond you because I do not have What's a logical argument, dude? I remember maybe one reference. Do I go to an expert of logic to ask them for a
• 78:00 - 78:30 logical argument or can I make logical arguments? You cited like one person this entire time. That's it. That's all you've given us. I cited my own logic. To be able to logic logic. Are you saying that we should only believe you as the supreme authority? Believe me about what? Of course, man. What are you claiming? Because many sources. Yeah. Do you do you know what? Tell me this. What's an argument? What's a logical argument? Well, you still have not yet. What's a logical argument? Answer my question. If you give a logical argument, which is steps from one to the
• 78:30 - 79:00 next and next, should be verified. Who's the source of the logical argument? At this point, it's you making it up. And isn't it always the source that somebody is making a logical argument, but because it's a mathematical expression, you can falsify arguments. That's why they're called arguments. They're falsifiable uh or they're provable. That's why you give sources. Sources for a logical argument. Yes. That I made. Yes. We're You don't have to find very funny. In case you had a different question, hold on one second. Sorry,
• 79:00 - 79:30 folks. Hold on. Hang on. Source. Premise one, me. Premise two, me. Premise three, me. Conclusion. Also me. Now, the great thing about that, you can falsify them with logic. You know what I find very funny here? Source. Andrew claims. Do you have a source for that? Andrew claims on one hand that I agree with pretty much everything he said. Yet during this entire night, during this entire debate, he claimed at least four times that I argued that uh Jews are more beloved than Orthodox Christians, which I never ever said. So, he's
• 79:30 - 80:00 just No, I I didn't I didn't I never ever said that Jews are more beloved than Orthodox Christians. I have a question for a prophet as well. Show me where he'll jump. We'll jump. We'll jump to the next question. Hello. So, I have a question for Andrew. I'm not familiar with you personally. So, it's been interesting hearing your um trains of thoughts. However, I've heard a lot of straw man attacks tonight against magic Jew blood, fainted outrage
• 80:00 - 80:30 about how much money for your kids you have to give up to Jews who reject Jesus, and claims about protecting an ethnic group of people's existence, meaning supporting a blasphemous antichrist. None of which were brought up by AP or logically or intrinsically follow. Meanwhile, biblically, we see God himself set up and set apart Israel for his glory. And we see, open your mouth for the mute, for the rights of those who are destitute. Open your mouth, judge righteously, defend the rights of the poor and needy. Proverbs 3:18-9. So my question is, based on these things, if you believe in the sanctity of the lives God created, how
• 80:30 - 81:00 can you attack the primary group who is speaking up for their preservation when the things that you claim such as ushering in the antichrist of prophecy does not logically follow? Yeah. So, first of all, my job here tonight is to make logical arguments as to whether or not there's an ought or an ought not. What if Christians must they have some moral obligation to support a political ideology, right? I granted AP's definition. I've been very charitable. I granted his definitions. I've granted
• 81:00 - 81:30 his numbers. I've granted everything and showed that they still don't falsify the actual position. The reason I utilize the idea of magic Jew blood is so that he could say yes this is above orthodox Christians. Do you ma'am do you believe that Israel is the church? Do you believe the church is Israel? I don't know how that's relevant to supporting ethnic group. Can you answer my question? Thank you. It's not answer question about supporting the life of ethnic group. Did I answer your Did I
• 81:30 - 82:00 answer your question? I answered it. Yes, I did. Can you answer mine? Is Israel the church? I believe that the church that is with Christ are the branches that have been grafted on to the naturalb born olive tree. AP though in his religious belief and in mine we believe that the church is the Israel which is being referenced. He believes that too that's part that's part of his faith hang on hang on that's part of his faith. So when I'm making so when I hang on can you let me finish my
• 82:00 - 82:30 point what does not exclusively mean? It means also yes I do but means yes I do but a qualifier great but he does all Christians believe that all Christians believe that can finish clarify one thing here for you one second I do want I do want to give stop filibustering me let me let me finish the damn point so anyway back to this by his own by his own faith he believes that Israel is a new church me and you are talking past each other me and AP are not I'm falsifying his direct ideology not
• 82:30 - 83:00 trying to falsify whatever yours You're making a false uh Okay, then who's the church? Okay, here here's the issue. Andrew, do you acknowledge Do you acknowledge that according to Romans 9 through11? And according to Orthodox teachings, there are two Israels here. One would be the natural Israel and one is the spiritual or also called the true Israel. Do you acknowledge this? Um well, let's uh let's define our terms real quick. So, do you acknowledge that there are two Israel, the natural Israel and the
• 83:00 - 83:30 spiritual Israel? Yeah. Yeah. So if they're saying what is well what is natural Israel? It's right in the scripture. I pointed to what the Orthodox church position is on. This is the Orthodox church position. What is it? What is natural Israel? You can find it in the Orthodox study Bible. The natural Israel are those who are of the tradition of the Jews and the descendants of the Jews for their forefathers who may or may not have accepted Christ. Whereas the spiritual Israel are those who have accepted Christ and who are the church. There are
• 83:30 - 84:00 two Israel. Now I understand two Israel. Do you acknowledge that there are two Israel? Yeah. So what which one were we talking about? What question did I ask her? Who's the church? Do you acknowledge, Andrew, that there are two? Even if I grant it, who's the church? Can you answer my question? Who's the church? Redvan, can you answer my question? Do you acknowledge? Yes. I do. Okay. There are two Israel. Who's the church? There are two Israel to acknowledge. Fantastic. So when it talks about when it talks about them being enemies for the gospel's sake but still
• 84:00 - 84:30 beloved by their forefathers which Israel is this Andrew. So who's the Okay, I answered your question. Answer that question. Which is the question again. I want you to promise that you're ask. Sure. Go ahead. Sure. When Paul talks about how they are enemies for the gospel's sake, but they are beloved for their forefather's sake. Which Israelis you talking about? Um well in in this case I'd say the natural. Thank you. And that's the one that this promise is about. So hang on. So who's the church? Hang on. So who's the church? Israel.
• 84:30 - 85:00 The the church is Israel. Yes. And so when I told her that you believe that the church is Israel, I was accurate, right? This is what just answer the question. Uh yeah, but that's not Holy Had to do all of this to get the answer from you. That's not relevant to the issue because we're talking about the natural Israel. It is relevant. She was not referencing natural Israel. Clearly, she clearly mentioned the natural Israel. That's what we were talking about. No, she I I told her that we're referencing until just the church.
• 85:00 - 85:30 Until just now, you didn't know that there was a natural getting answers out of you is like pulling teeth. We have we have a question that there was a natural problem. We have a question for you, AP. Sure. Go ahead. So, Andrew mentioned earlier that he believes the religious Jews are the ones who reject Jesus, but I wanted to get your viewpoint on this since you guys clearly differ on some things. Would you agree with him that the religious Jews are those that reject Jesus or instead those that actually accept him? Sorry, um I didn't understand the whole distinction. So, uh Andrew put forward the idea that
• 85:30 - 86:00 religious Jews reject Jesus. I'm asking you if you would agree with that position or if you would instead believe that the religious Jews are those that do follow Jesus. Thank you. So um all those who are Jews, all those who are Jews by flesh, all those who are Jews by tradition who reject Christ would be considered um the Jews and of the natural branches of Israel. That is literally what uh Paul says. And then there are also those who he says not all
• 86:00 - 86:30 are Israel. Uh the true Israel are then those who accept Christ. So this is where the diversion comes in. And by the way, he is trying to make it look like this is just Orthodox uh theology. It's not. It's literally in the Bible. This Protestants teach the same thing. Catholics teach the same thing. Orthodox teach the same thing because it is in the Bible. He didn't even just he only just acknowledged he only just acknowledged that it might be true that Israel is also the natural Israel. You know, the people of Israen, I will I do want to jump I do want to
• 86:30 - 87:00 jump to the next question is on this one for a while. Yeah, your view depends on you right now. It doesn't depend on me. Your view depends on specifically a Christian. I need to do this, folks. But so I have a brief uh statement uh and then a question. So uh I'm a seminarian in a in the reformed tradition almost or reformed the reformed tradition universally rejects dispensationalism. Yeah. And and many of
• 87:00 - 87:30 the other sort of main Protestant groups. It's mostly uh restorationists that accept that that that hold that position. But um that's true. It's small. It's like 20% of a of a of like Yeah, it's like 20% who accepts dispensationalism. Yeah, I was just saying that you characterized Protestants when it is not universal to Protestantism. That's true. But look, I wasn't being real quick. my so in in the 70s the United States sent uh money and weapons
• 87:30 - 88:00 to the Taliban in the effort to fight the Soviet Union. Yeah. Today the Israeli government sends or money to support dispensationalists in the US. Yes. Does the US support the political aims of a caliphate of the Taliban just because they send them money? They have.
• 88:00 - 88:30 So that I mean they actually have supported um what you would consider, you know, like if we're talking about if we're talking about al-Qaeda, things like this, the US has actually supported groups like this. I would say though from a Christian perspective, we would say they ought not do that, right? They ought not do that. That's the whole point, right? I think you misunderstand my question. What's the question? Um the support of a group or
• 88:30 - 89:00 organization by a government. Yeah. Is almost not is almost never because of some you know the philosophical or theological alignment. I totally agree. It is pragmatic. I think it is I think that your assertion that you know or your your assertion that Israel is there to bring about the antichrist because they support ridiculous dispensationalist nonsense um in the United States is a bridge too
• 89:00 - 89:30 far in that they're supporting them because they bring you know because they uh support and bring people to support and uh positively you know tow the Israeli state. Then why do they say why do they make the claim that they're essentially biblical accelerationists? Because they're trying to get biblical accelerationists to support them, right? But that doesn't that's that doesn't
• 89:30 - 90:00 mean that they're biblical acceleration biblical accelerationism ends in uh stupidity. But and and and antichrist, right? Antichrist. Yeah. The end of the world. If you if you believe that that's that esquetology is true, but if it's not, it just means ridiculous. Yes. But we do believe that that esquetology is true that there will be an antichrist, right? Well, there is antichrists, but Yeah. Yeah. But I'm talking you Yeah. I
• 90:00 - 90:30 But but by that by the same uh definition of antichrist, the Jewish state itself is antichrist because it's not openly supporting Christ. the Israel the uh the the enemies of Israel are antichrist because they are openly against Christ. It's almost like we should not support either of them. Yes. Wow. Great. Yes. Yeah. Cool. Let the Christians in the Middle East die. We can support Christians in the Middle East. We can even get Christians in the Middle East.
• 90:30 - 91:00 We're letting them die. And we don't have to support Muslims or Jews to do it. You're letting them die. You're not letting them die. are literally letting the Christians in the Middle East die by refusing to support the only state in the Middle East where Christianity is thriving. According to the Christian organization Open Doors International, which tracks Christians and their oppression across the world, Andrew, I want to show you one 8%. I want to show you this. 8% I have a list here of uh World Watch list published by Open Doors International. Open Doors International
• 91:00 - 91:30 tracks the oppression of Christians around the world. Yeah, it uh the entire Middle East is is marked here. Where do you think Israel ranks on this list of I'm sure it's way higher than a lot of the Muslim nations. Where do you think it ranks in terms of oppression? Where do you think let's just say it's like number eight zillion, who cares? Yeah, it's nowhere on the list because because among all the countries in the Middle East where Christians are brutally oppressed and which have an a history of oppressing Christians, destroying Christian sites, diminishing
• 91:30 - 92:00 Christianity, Lebanon was taken over as a Christian country has been turned into a Muslim country where Christians are losing their rights day by day. You're not arguing with a Muslim. Israel is the only nation that defends the rights of Christians and you don't give a about them. You're letting them die. Give your opinion. So, first of all, let me just respond. I got to respond to that one. First of all, inside of Israel, right, what is it? 1% or under 2% of who are actually Christians. You think that we can't remove them from that? We can. We definitely can. By the
• 92:00 - 92:30 way, hang on. By the way, by the way, you want to take them out of Can I finish? Bro, you don't want them to live. Why Why am I not allowed to finish ever stopering me, dummy? So, real quick, we can assist We can assist Christians around the world and have Ton we have and so have tons of organizations which have assisted Christians around the world by not supporting Muslims or Israel. You can do both. It's a bifurcation claim. We must
• 92:30 - 93:00 do one. Why? Because we have great reasons, biblical reasons to not support a state which wants to usher an antichrist which protects Christians and which protects Christians. We can protect Christians too. Ren, are we doing it? Yeah, we protect Christians here. What do you mean? We are not protecting the Christians in the Middle East. They are dying. Your fellow Orthodox Christians are dying. And do you think that the United States is hindering programs from people inside the United States to assist in the removal of Orthodox Christians from those areas? No. The truth is why would they do that? Right now, Christians in
• 93:00 - 93:30 Palestine aren't even allowed to leave Palestine, are they? Yes, they actually are. Oh, they are? Yes, they actually are. Okay. So, they're literally working in Israel right now. The population of Gaza, the Christian population of Gaza is below 1,000. Who lets them go? Because of the Palestinian. Who lets them go? Israel. Israel. Okay, great. So, you're saying what you're saying to me then is that we can take Christians out of Israel. Why would you want to take Christians out of Muslim nations? The Christians are happy in Israel. According to the latest poll, 84% of
• 93:30 - 94:00 Christians say they are satisfied with Palestine. Are they Are they satisfied? They would be happier as well if Israel was in charge. Are they satisfied right now? No, they are not because Muslims are in charge. No, they're not because terrorists are in charge. Why would they be happy on the terrorism? Here's the thing. Why? Can you tell me why it is that I have an obligation, some obligation to protect Jewish interest for the Jewish state instead of the Christian interests? Let's give EP a chance. And then we really do. If you if you as a Christian do not care about the well-being of Christians in the Middle
• 94:00 - 94:30 East or the well the one said we should help of the Jews on the brink of extermination I guess that's your problem and deal with it when you are I guess if all you care about is placing Jews above everybody else I guess I guess if we're going to straw man each other straw man once again we have to move to the next question. Okay, first of all, thank you so much for doing this in humble little Asheville and thank you for taking my question. Somebody uh ahead of me actually made the point that I wanted to make about well, Jews existed prior to Israel, but I didn't
• 94:30 - 95:00 want to look like I punked out and step out of line. So, I reformulated my question to address Andrew's argument uh that uh I think Josh thought went too far, but then the person right in front of me, so I'm going to try to formulate it because I agree Christians shouldn't support an ideology that may conflict with Christianity wholeheartedly and is growing. But the uh the pragmatic thing that of course I'll lose because I'm trying to be pragmatic, but uh 30 to 36% of people in the United States are
• 95:00 - 95:30 socialist uh support socialism XYZ. The United States government has given tens upon tens of millions of dollars to socialist causes. Therefore, should we support America because America wants to start a socialist revolution? Well, by here's here's the thing. I would never make an ought claim, right, that Christians would have to support United States endeavors because it's the United States. I would never make that ought claim. He's making the claim, we must
• 95:30 - 96:00 support Israel because they're Jews. That's literally his claim. Two completely different paradigms. Here's the issue, Andrew. Here's the issue. This is all I can do in terms of response. I'm just like on my third reformulation, but I appreciate it, gentlemen. Thank you so much. We have to go to the next question because we're going to do rapid fire with these last guys. I should um I sat wanted to come back to a question that this young man, you brought it up um a couple minutes ago, but you were saying how it's safer for Christians to live in Israel, but Israel has been killing 3%
• 96:00 - 96:30 of the Christian population in Gaza recently. You mentioned earlier in your opening argument that the idea of Zionism is to coexist with one another. And maybe Theodore Herzel, you know, didn't understand the idea of coexistence, but there's been plenty of paramilitary groups that have been attacking, you know, during this region during, you know, the original aes um you said you weren't going to reiterate propaganda, but Amin was just one man.
• 96:30 - 97:00 You know who I'm referring to. Here's the issue. Um, you are once again uh influenced by by the propaganda which I see which is why I brought this up to Andrew Wilson and said that uh if we have a list tracked by a Christian organization, do you trust your fellow Christians? Open Doors International is a Christian organization which tracks oppression of Christians around the world. According to their data, despite the fact that they report on every single instance of Christian oppression, even in Israel, if it happens, Israel is not listed among the countries where
• 97:00 - 97:30 there is Christian oppression. So if if people are dying in the middle of a war, if people are dying in the middle of of a war, then does that really mean that that it is Israel that is oppressing them? No, they are in the middle of a war. Do you know how many Christians died in this war so far? Why did Israel support Hamas? What? Why did Israel support Hamas? Why did Israel support Hamas? What are you talking about? Is this new to you? No, it's not new to me. Israel did support the the forerunners of Hamas before
• 97:30 - 98:00 Hamas came into existence because they thought that this was a charity organization which they marked themselves as. It then turned into a terrorist organization. The only thing that happened afterwards is that Netanyahu came up with this brilliant policy for which he has been heavily criticized where he said if Qatar wants to send funds to Hamas I will just allow the funds to reach Hamas because this could prevent them from violently attacking us. That's the only capacity. That's the only capacity to which Israel has supported Hamas. If you want to rely
• 98:00 - 98:30 on lies and don't want to listen to the truth here, I'm not sure what to tell you. Uh good evening. Thank you guys for coming. Uh quickly to the other two gentlemen about uh the quickly about the other two gentlemen that talked about um like if if a government supports uh like a foreign organization that means that they believe in what the organization is saying. Not that we should support it, but I don't think it's fair to claim
• 98:30 - 99:00 that Israel supports like the whole messianic like ideology of the temple organization, but America didn't support or doesn't believe in like like they just recently admitted that they were supporting like Bokam, al-Shabaab, all these. I don't think they believe that they should establish like America should establish like caliphates in these little areas like based off of these organizations. Um, that's my question. which is not it's not like a big uh disagree. What's the question though? Like uh do you think it's fair to assume
• 99:00 - 99:30 uh that Israel supports the messianic movement if other governments like America supported like al-Shabaab and these other Islamic the government's becoming the messianic movement in Israel that's becoming that. So it's growing by leaps and bounds. Benjamin Netanyahu had to get in good. They had to get good in good with these people politically. So the truth of the matter is is like if if you look at it that organization is growing to become the government that's literally growing to become it. He can he can cope about it
• 99:30 - 100:00 but he'll have to admit it's been growing not shrinking. I don't want to thank you for the response and then just a quick question to you. Uh do you okay so yeah you say that Israel is important in supporting Christians in Israel but how about like abroad? Israel supported uh many dictators that have persecuted Christians like in Nicaragua for example funded uh 90% of their uh their military to kill 50,000 Nicaraguans which there could be Christians in that group and Angola they did the same thing by supporting three uh of the rebel groups fighting in the country by switching
• 100:00 - 100:30 sides each time and uh increasing the violence against Christians. This is apparent everywhere. Even in my uh home country of Aratria faster sorry even in my home country of Aratria Israel support trained a bunch of the commandos not only that they end up oh that do you think with this uh information do you think um that Israel you think that Christians should still support Israel despite what what you're basically asking me is is uh because Israel makes uh makes certain mistakes in the past
• 100:30 - 101:00 does this mean uh we should we should support Israel? I would I would just ask the same question to make the very make a very similar point about America. America did a lot of pretty bad things in the in the past in pretty messed up things. Does that mean that America is altogether a bad nation? Does that mean America is undeserving of our support and solidarity? No. Israel just as well may have done in the past certain things that are unacceptable. Does that mean Israel is undeserving of our support and our help? No. Go to the back. Sorry, we've already gone over time for the Q&A. So, I do want to jump into the actual closings. You have three minutes
• 101:00 - 101:30 for each speaker starting with Apostate Prophet. The floor is all yours. Yes. So, um, this did go a little bit as I, uh, thought it would go, which is that, um, much of what I brought up in my opening speech, much of the argument has been left unressed by my opponent, Andrew Wilson. Whereas, uh, I answered to very much every single thing that he brought up in one way or another. He didn't like my responses, but, uh, but that's just his issue. Um he doesn't like it when he gets responses that
• 101:30 - 102:00 don't make sense to him. Um he didn't answer my issues about uh the threats that face the world with uh Israel going extinct. I'm an ex-Muslim. I grew up in an environment and in a system where people preach day and night that if the Jews who are the enemies are defeated, then the Christians are next. There is a saying in the Middle East that goes uh first the Saturday people then the Sunday people. I'm not joking. Don't trust me. Go online and Google the
• 102:00 - 102:30 phrase, okay? Use Google. Google the phrase first the Saturday people, then the Sunday people. You will be shocked by what you will find out. Because what you will find out is that this is a common sentiment in the Middle East that once the Muslims are done with the Jews, they would go to the Christians and oppress them as well. Because Islam is not a religion that is about coexistence. It is a religion about uh dominating and massacring populations. I am an ex-Muslim. I have the death penalty on me for leaving Islam. Uh I know exactly how Muslims think, how they
• 102:30 - 103:00 feel. If Israel were to fall, the euphoric rise of Muslims to once again reestablish this sick order which was only by the way stopped by Christian western people by force. It will rise again and it will threaten the entire region. It will it will threaten Christians as well. Not supporting Israel here in this case because some people are paranoid about Jews and about Zionism and all that is supporting the Islamists who want to take over. The
• 103:00 - 103:30 very people who are fighting against Israel say very openly I gave you the sources that once they are done with the Jews then the next goal will be to reestablish the caliphate and start from there. You think this is just some uh you know a possibility. This is what they're aiming for. Why in the world would anybody support that by refusing to help those who are fighting against that Israel? If you don't care about Jews, if you don't care about the Bible,
• 103:30 - 104:00 if you don't care about God, if you don't care about Paul, care about a little bit of logic, care about the the Christians there, don't allow the dam that is preventing the flood from coming in to break. support those people that are holding back the masses of barbarians that not only want the extermination of Jews that people are obsessed with, but also the extermination of all the other people in the region. You are allowing them into
• 104:00 - 104:30 your countries. You're allowing them to rape your people and now you're also allowing them to defeat the only ones who actually have the balls to send against them. Good job. Thank you very much for that closing. We'll kick it over to Andrew for his three-minute closing as well. Yeah. So, I think that that's a really effective closing argument against a Muslim. But the thing is is that I'm not a Muslim and I am not a supporter of Islam in any capacity. And he ends it with a false binary again. If you Andrew don't support Israel, that means you support Islam. Boy, that's genius. I haven't heard that
• 104:30 - 105:00 from every political party since I was a kid. If you don't support us, you support the death of the elderly. If you don't support us, you support abortion. If you don't support us, you support A, B, and C. Totally false dialectics, false binaries and lies. Here's the truth, right? The truth is is that the West is the ones who already enable enable the fact that Islam can't spread. The West is the fact that's already doing this by its own admission. We must support Israel. Why? Because they're the
• 105:00 - 105:30 ones who are stopping this. That means the West is necessary in a component to stopping this. So let's assume for a second that every single Jewish person tomorrow left Israel just packed their bags and they left and all the Christians moved in instead because they have a lot of attachment to the Holy Land. Are you saying that their interests wouldn't be preserved there by them also against Islam? Of course it would. That's what makes this a false binary choice. You don't have to support either. I don't need to support Islam and I don't need to support a Jewish
• 105:30 - 106:00 ethnostate either. Ridban that want has prophecies for antichrist it's trying to fulfill. I don't need to support either. Totally unnecessary for me to support either with my tax dollars. Totally unnecessary for me to support either in order to stop Islam. By the way, I just am going to point out the historic standard. Israel hasn't been along around for very long. The reestablished nation of Israel and the West has been kicking the out of Muslims for about a thousand years. Just want to point that out. About a thousand years. kicking the total out of uh
• 106:00 - 106:30 Islamics all all over the place when it comes to them spreading their ideology. This includes when they were enroaching in Europe, which they did, they got thrown out of there, right? I would say the destabilizing agent inside Middle East. You could make the argument could be Israel for why there's so many of these displaced Muslim refugees moving into Western nations to begin with. You can easily make that argument. Now, would I I don't even think that's necessary. Maybe that is a step too far. But the point is is that it still is a false binary choice. And that's all he
• 106:30 - 107:00 gives you. Never ever trust the argument of a person who says if you don't support this, that means you support that. That's pure rhetoric. It's illogical. It's facious. Every argument from Ridban was facious. He said he addressed my arguments. I wrote them premise form. Never addressed a single argument ever. When I asked him, and I want you to take this last thing away with my closing, I asked Rivan point blank, "Do you think that we should support the nation of Israel even knowing that 30% of the population there
• 107:00 - 107:30 and growing, right, wants Antichrist?" And his answer point blank, and I'll clip it and put it out for those who don't believe me, was yes. Unequivocally, yes. Well, I have a different point of view. No, I'm not going in any capacity to support Antichrist or Islam. I can have my cake and eat it too. So that's it. We'll conclude at least. We appreciate you gentlemen. Thank you very much. Give him a round of applause, folks.
• 107:30 - 108:00 Certainly one of the more one of the more competitive and intense and tense as well debates that I've seen in a long time. And also, thank you very much folks for coming out. Thanks for your questions. We're not going to wrap up quite yet. Sean Samco from Uncensored America is going
• 108:00 - 108:30 to come on stage in just a moment. But I do want to say thanks so much for coming out. Thanks for all of your questions. I appreciate your passion. It's been an amazing debate. So, welcome Sean, the leader. You bet. Yeah. Okay. Um, he stand up for a second. See this giant right here? He has all the details of where that's going to be. So, go ahead and talk to him and he'll get you all those details. Okay, guys.
• 108:30 - 109:00 And with that, I want to welcome the leader of uncensored America, the man responsible for this organization as well ultimately for this debate, but also want to say thank you to Olivia for doing all the hard work. But Sean, thank you very much. Come back up. This is an amazing debate, Sean. Amazing. Thank you, James. Amazing moderation. Thank you. I just want to give a bunch of thank yous because we reached a big milestone here at Uncensored America. We just crossed 100,000 subscribers, which is pretty
• 109:00 - 109:30 amazing. And it's not possible without a lot of people. So, I'm going to go through them as quickly as possible, but I have to thank him because I'm really grateful for everybody. And I feel very blessed. Um, so the past few weeks, all the support we've gotten. But first, I want to thank Andrew and Apostate Prophet. This debate was so hard to put together. As you know, I was trying so many people that want, you know, see if they would debate you, and nobody would debate this guy. He's one of the few that would. So, I give him a lot of credit for coming here and doing that. I really do. [Applause]
• 109:30 - 110:00 But they're good sports. So, I really really appreciate them for doing this. And I love to thank James. We met at Minds Fest a couple years ago and now we you're a default Myra. You've done an amazing job. Um, I want to thank our execs here at this chapter and all of our other chapters who help us bring these events to campuses. People don't understand that you can't just roll up and do an event. You got to start a chapter of students to actually make these things possible. Everybody's volunteered, paid for tickets. You guys have really really p especially the
• 110:00 - 110:30 Crucible crew guys. You did a really amazing job. And Myron Gaines with the um Castle Club too really pulled out hard uh for our last event. So, thank you guys so much. And uh if you guys haven't already, subscribe to the Crucible, subscribe to Past Profit. They have great content. You guys will love it. And yeah, and if you guys, like I say, you're here for the meet and greet, um, please stay afterwards. What we're going to do is we're gonna have people leave. Everybody leave. If you're here for the meet and greet, just we'll let you guys come back in. And if you're here for the dinner as well, we'll discuss that. Um,
• 110:30 - 111:00 and lastly, I want to thank uh everybody who's helped out at our organization, Luca, Ash, Kyle, Alex, Emily, Brendan, Drew, Jacob, Zeb, who's in the back there on man the camera, John Ward, James, Jeff, Ken, and our lawyer, John Gross. amazing guy and his wife, Mimi, have also been very, very helpful behind the scenes when we have to sue the pants off these universities that try to shut this stuff down. Um, and lastly, I want to thank all of our talent because our talent is what really drives all this. You know, we can put these events together and all that and they can, you
• 111:00 - 111:30 know, we do all the behind the scenes stuff, but without the talent, it really doesn't resonate online. We don't hit that 100,000 milestone without that. So I want to thank Alex Stein, Gav McInness, Laura Loomer, John Doyle, Destiny, Owen Shroy, Hunter Avalone, Brianna Woo, Anthony Kumia, Martin Skrey, Nuance Bro, Don Terres, that's Alex Stein's boyfriend or wife's boyfriend, sorry. Key difference, uh Elijah, um Posit Andrew, and of course Myron Gains last week. He really helped push us up to 100,000 subs. So please show him some love. He's been amazing to
• 111:30 - 112:00 work with. Great guy. And last but not least, Milo Yiannopoulos. That guy, man, he's been amazing behind the scenes. Like, it's a lot of stuff that you guys don't know, but he's helped us out with a lot of events. He was there from the beginning. He was the first guy we hosted, and he didn't have to take he didn't have to do it. He didn't have to do it at all. Like, he took a risk with us and we really appreciate. So, big thank you to Milo. And have a good night, guys. And like I said, if you're here for the meet and greet or royalty tickets, please exit, but stay hanging out in the lobby and we'll bring you guys back in. Thank you so much and have
• 112:00 - 112:30 a great night. [Music]