Derek Cheung - 2 Years Later

Summary

In this insightful interview, Derek Cheung shares his journey over the past two years at Madntown Homes. He discusses the evolution of digital transformation within the company, focusing on how technology is being used to revolutionize building processes. Despite initial challenges, Derek highlights the importance of integrating digital practices with existing business operations to ensure a smooth transition. His reflections on change management and the value of staying nimble offer valuable insights for anyone looking to implement new technologies in traditionally rooted industries. Derek's advice underscores the importance of being adaptive, responsive, and maintaining open communication with all stakeholders.

Highlights

• Derek Cheung shares how his role has evolved in driving digital transformation at Madntown Homes. 🏗️
• The importance of aligning new technologies with existing processes to maximize efficiency. 🔧
• Insights on overcoming 'organizational autoimmune responses' to change. 🌐
• Celebrating small wins and learning from setbacks in digital integration. 🎉
• Building relationships within the organization is crucial for successful technological implementation. 🤗

Key Takeaways

• Digital transformation is a process that requires integration with existing business practices, rather than replacing them immediately. 🤓
• Change management is about understanding and addressing the human side of organizational change. 😊
• The importance of gaining buy-in from all stakeholders when introducing new technology. 🤝
• Learning from past mistakes and being open to iteration is key to successful digital adoption. 🔄
• A supportive environment that encourages innovation is essential for technological advancements to flourish. 🌟

Overview

Derek Cheung reconnects with us two years after his initial interview to discuss the ongoing digital transformation at Madntown Homes. He provides fascinating insights into how his role has evolved, from overseeing BIM (Building Information Management) to spearheading Applied Technologies. This shift reflects a broader responsibility in integrating and maximizing technology's impact across the company.

Throughout the interview, Derek highlights a critical realization: successful technology adoption isn't just about the tools themselves but also about the processes and people involved. He likens resistance to change within organizations to an 'autoimmune response', emphasizing the significance of a careful, stepwise approach to integration that respects current processes and fosters buy-in from all stakeholders.

Derek's reflections culminate in valuable advice for anyone in a similar field: remain flexible, embrace the lessons from setbacks, and seek environments that are open to innovation. His narrative is a testament to how understanding and adapting to the human aspects of technological change can lead to more successful and lasting improvements.

Chapters

• 00:00 - 00:30: Introduction The introduction chapter features a conversation with Derek, where the discussion follows up on a previous interview conducted a few years ago. The context is provided about Derek's work at Matam Homes, and the reason for the current discussion is because students have been watching the previously recorded interview.
• 00:30 - 01:30: Follow-up on Past Interview The chapter titled 'Follow-up on Past Interview' begins with a question about what the interviewee has been doing since the last interview. The host, Peter, expresses that there has been interest in the follow-up from the previous discussion. The interviewee expresses gratitude for being invited back and mentions their appreciation that the previous session was useful for students. The conversation is set to explore the developments in the interviewee's life post the initial interview.
• 01:30 - 03:00: Current Work Update The chapter titled 'Current Work Update' provides an update on the present status of work. The speaker discusses the ongoing efforts in digital transformation and building information management, also known as BIM. They mention a rebranding effort where the work is now being referred to as Virtual Design and Construction (VDC). Despite the rebranding, the core of the work remains focused on BIM.
• 03:00 - 04:30: Challenges in Digital Transformation The chapter discusses the challenges encountered in digital transformation, emphasizing the importance of stepwise progression in implementing changes. It highlights the potential difficulties and setbacks that can arise if changes are not introduced gradually and systematically.
• 04:30 - 06:00: Importance of Early Design Stages This chapter discusses the metaphor of likening business resistance to new ideas as an autoimmune response. Much like how the body reacts to pollen—which is harmless—by causing an allergic reaction, organizations might react to innovative ideas as threats, thus resisting them. The comparison highlights the natural tendency of businesses to oppose changes or innovations, similar to how the immune system opposes foreign particles.
• 06:00 - 08:00: Role and Rebranding The chapter delves into the concept of corporate identity and its parallels to individual identity. The speaker reflects on the initial reactions organizations may have towards changes that seem unnatural or unexpected. Insights from business school teachings are mentioned, emphasizing how corporate entities are recognized by law similarly to individuals. The conversation builds upon a previous discussion, highlighting the speaker's consistent position on these themes.
• 08:00 - 10:00: Technology Integration and Learning The chapter discusses the role of technology in the educational field, emphasizing how digital technology is being integrated to transform traditional methods. However, it highlights the realization that certain foundational steps need to be taken to maximize the benefits of such technology. The discussion focuses on leveraging technology and understanding its full integration within educational practices.
• 10:00 - 13:00: Future Plans and Changes The chapter "Future Plans and Changes" explores the potential advancements in construction through digitization. It emphasizes the importance of having well-suited designs for effective digital transformation in generating takeoffs, building materials, and improving construction sequencing. The discussion also highlights that certain steps are necessary before digitization, indicating a shift towards more integrated and technology-driven planning and building processes.
• 13:00 - 18:00: Advice and Insights This chapter emphasizes the importance of designing homes in a way that they can be easily replicated through digitization processes. It discusses the need for strategic investment in digitization to ensure continuous business success. The focus is on low-rise homes in the Greater Toronto area and addresses potential inefficiencies in frequently redesigning homes. It aims to provide advice and insights on optimizing design strategies for better scalability and business efficiency.
• 18:00 - 19:00: Conclusion and Farewell The chapter discusses the various challenges faced due to differing municipal requirements, interpretations of building codes, and setback requirements. These differences are unique to each municipality, impacting the lot fabric's design and maximizing its use. The focus is on how these variations necessitate changes in the shapes and structures of the developments, presenting constant challenges in designing and building effectively.

Derek Cheung - 2 Years Later Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 okay so Derek thank you uh once again for talking to me uh to follow up on our interview from a couple years ago when we talked about the work that you were doing at matam homes and uh this discussion comes because students have been watching the uh uh the the interview that you recorded previously
• 00:30 - 01:00 and they they've been asking what what happened after that so uh so that's really where we're going to start today is really just to say uh what have you been doing uh since that interview uh and um and how how has that been going sounds good and uh thank you for having me back Peter um honored to be here as I was last time and uh glad to hear that your students have been finding this helpful so as far as what's happened since last time um I I actually had to
• 01:00 - 01:30 look back at our last video for me to actually digest where we stood but um I'm still Anatomy I'm still working on um a portion of my work at least is still on the digital transformation work the uh building information management work bin uh we're kind of going through a little Rebrand with it as well we're we're referring to it as VDC so virtual design and construction however at the at the basis of it it really is still
• 01:30 - 02:00 the same thing um and that that is still progressing but uh I think uh just referring back to our last conversation as well um I talked a lot about how there's if you don't progress in a stepwise fashion in terms of bringing change it's very easy in some cases to uh get not not necess backlash that's not the right word it's more so
• 02:00 - 02:30 resistance or I recently I've uh preferred to calling it an autoimmune response from from from the business because and and that that is how it kind of feels like it feels like an allergic reaction in a way right Hing you know breathing like pollen allergy is you breathe it in pollen is just pollen right it's not technically supposed to damage you but your body will react to it because it's something that seems falling so if you into cre
• 02:30 - 03:00 something that doesn't seem natural at least at first glance that is a very easy knee-jerk response from an or from an organization and I I know in uh in business school at least they they teach us corporate entities are uh recognized by law as a uh you know as an individual as well so there's there's some parallels to that um and so through uh where where we stood during our conversation last time um my stance is
• 03:00 - 03:30 still very very much the same that the technology is a helpful one and we are trying to use that digital technology to change the way that we build however um and this is the important piece is I realize that there are earlier steps that we needed to take in order to fully leverage this technology so um you know we talked about how how we could benefit from you know using this technology how fully integrated it is in terms of using
• 03:30 - 04:00 using it to be able to generate takeoffs or build materials how we can use this to uh that our construction sequencing all that Still Remains true the difference however um and what what I've learned is that all that is predicated on how well our designs are suited to be able to be digitized and there there are steps even before the digitization
• 04:00 - 04:30 how well are we designing our our homes to be able to be replicated by by this process so the investment into digitization is one thing but the repeated investment from a business standpoint that is where we can sometimes fall flat because if for instance we're designing uh in anatomy in my division we are looking at lowrise homes across the greater Toronto area so if we continue to redesign our homes for
• 04:30 - 05:00 different Municipal requirements or you know differences in interpretation of building codes or you know setback requirement differences that are unique to municipalities and therefore changing some of the um shapes and um you know how basically how we can maximize that uh the lot Fabric that becomes challenging because that means that
• 05:00 - 05:30 there's more and more models that we have to digitize so ultimately what uh my team is now doing we again on the topic of rebranding I'm no longer the I think my title during my our last meeting was um Bim and strategic sourcing um my team is now referred to as apply Technologies and so I think that's an important Rebrand because aside from simple simply well nothing
• 05:30 - 06:00 simple about it but aside from just working on Bim the idea is that we're looking at different ways to integrate technology and when I refer to technology I take it back to any tool right like a caveman would have referred to a hammer as technology because they don't need to they're not just grabbing a random piece of stone and you know whacking stuff with it so you know any tool that increases our productivity in my mind is consider technology so what
• 06:00 - 06:30 we're doing right now um is we are integrating some of those thoughts that I that I just mentioned and how we design such that we can maximize our um our efficiencies in terms of Designing and deploying ultimately we are a production Builder we have the volume so in order to leverage that volume and build economies of scale we have to align our design practices our purchase practices and our construction practices
• 06:30 - 07:00 in a way that will maximize that value chains efficiency so that's where we are now um we are creating these new plans and this again I uh you know a couple of times we talked prior to uh even doing our uh first interview um I was a big concerned because um whatever I brought to the table wouldn't necessarily be a completed or conclude concluded state so
• 07:00 - 07:30 it really is um still a work in progress and even now we are still sort of pushing this ahead and it's not um it's not straightforward and I think if there's anything I've learned since our our last interview it's it's really that and you know you see you see that discussed on you know on on different at Business Schools or on different forums you know you when when you look at you know an implementation that is a s
• 07:30 - 08:00 success or a failure or whatever it might be you see an end state but from the starting point to get to that end State there is usually a lot of iteration a lot of you know moving around couple of steps forwards few steps back and so on and so forth and you know living through it I really do see that and uh I think we are right now we're in the many many steps forward stage but I'm I'm also not um I'm not a afraid if there's things that don't work
• 08:00 - 08:30 out as well uh because those those are lessons that allow us to dig down into what what we need to improve how and you know how we redeploy in the future and I think that's a that's an important takeaway that I've that I I've gained over the past I think two or three years since our last conversation um but if it's worthwhile and if you still believe that that uh you know whatever you're working on is worth the effort you'll keep working on it and you'll ultimately
• 08:30 - 09:00 find an answer to to how to deploy it and so now that we're working on these new plans um that integrates some of this thinking um it allows us an opportunity to really show the value um the other thing that I did mention I think last time as well and that I didn't quite learn until recently is well not that recently I guess maybe a few months after our interview is that simply bringing digital um into an OP
• 09:00 - 09:30 you know into an existing operation and uh you know having the tool there is not enough it we need to figure out when that piece of technology needs to be deployed um and how to integrate it really with the the rest of the business and a lot of that because the technology is new it most of the time it doesn't fit into the old process so finding the
• 09:30 - 10:00 cleanest spot to integrate it into the existing process uh usually yields a a result that is suboptimal it can still work uh that was how we approached it previously so I think um when we talked last time Bim was being still our our test case was being implemented at the working drawing stage so that's usually when we get to working drawings that's post design The
• 10:00 - 10:30 Architects has already gone through it they've done they've given um you know aack routing and structural design considerations as far as an architect can take it obviously it's not stamped by an engineer but it's it's taken pretty far and then what happens though is and and what I've learned going through a few more of those Cycles is that that time is there there's a lot of work that that is happening during that time because that's at the same time as
• 10:30 - 11:00 when our Structural Engineers um and our mechanical engineers are going in and looking through our AAC Plumbing structure and essentially making the skeleton work within that design that was created by the architect by and large it's it's worked um and in the past in in the lzed world again because we built under part N9 building code generally even though Anatomy exceeds it it's still a wooden structure so if
• 11:00 - 11:30 there's issues with it it's simple to I'll again put quotes around simple but the adjustments to those issues means taking a saw or maybe a hammer knocking down a couple of pieces of wood and then reframing it right it's a little bit of a different um I guess cost to to U you know any mistake than a poor concrete wall or you know a skill structure for
• 11:30 - 12:00 instance so where where we where we sit right now though is that we need to be able to like at at at that stage uh when we're when we're looking at working drawings again they don't um because the the lower cost of uh of mistakes at that stage it becomes it becomes less so of a focus and so there's a lot happening but the drawings aren't necessar taken as
• 12:00 - 12:30 100% uh when we're when we're building it anyways so there there's a lot of contradictions in that space But ultimately what what will help us launch a better uh you know a better roll out is that we need to do a lot of this work much earlier on so I guess the the one piece of success that um that I've managed to to gain over the past two years is convincing the
• 12:30 - 13:00 business so my boss my boss's boss that we need to look at the process even earlier and we need to be able to integrate the digital practice that you know we're trying to launch and Engineering work even much much earlier than we have been in the past so that is another piece that we're we're working on and it's again to to the point I was saying earlier we're changing the way we look at the existing
• 13:00 - 13:30 process in order to make make sure that this technology actually yields the best the best outcome but we're not changing the process to suit the technology if that makes sense it's when we were launching and learning from this piece of technology there were learnings that are related to how we can possibly make our current our current state better and so the that's the other point you don't I
• 13:30 - 14:00 don't think we launch a technology for technology sake like knowing that a technology is beneficial knowing that it is um you know that that there can be a lot of benefits on the downstream and knowing that if if adopted there will be gains isn't enough it it has to be along the lines of there are improvements that can be made on our current on our current State
• 14:00 - 14:30 processes and how to make those changes stepwise and how to use digital Technologies to Aid it or accelerate It ultimately again it's a tool right so Caveman with a stone they were trying to hammer something you know you they they go from that to a an actual hammer it means that they have leverage because they have a handle so they can swing harder right but they may you know that tool was for something
• 14:30 - 15:00 relatively simple and the Improvement should be something that is relatively simple and I I still believe that going through those steps of evolution makes it so that whatever change you're doing becomes more longlasting so that's my takeaway I guess from the last couple of years I it it's a very interesting uh contribution particularly what it seems to reflect is The increased experience
• 15:00 - 15:30 and relationship that you've got with the business and your experience of of trying to introduce things uh and uh reacting to the response that that's had uh and primarily there uh understanding the need to uh effectively integrate with the business processes and the activities beyond the tech technology if you like and you seem to
• 15:30 - 16:00 be doing that uh learning from that and that seems to be benefiting your implementation so you know if there's one lesson I think there's lots of lessons in what you've said but if there's one lesson for me it would be that uh being sensitive to the environment that you're introducing the technology into and being prepared to respond to that uh is is really what you've just said done I yeah I think so and I think I I
• 16:00 - 16:30 might even take it a step further to use uh use it's not this one's not an analogy but I I will say that when when you're dealing with any change like and you know I know we're we're talking about digital integration but if you look at it from a change management perspective ultimately you're not dealing with a piece of technology or like well in some cases you might be right as as Engineers it's very easy easy to default to simple direct logic
• 16:30 - 17:00 this works therefore it should be here and therefore let me let me put it in here and now the process flow will work like this and taada it works while true ultimately when you're dealing with businesses you're dealing with people and again to my earlier comment and I I hope the the analogy of an autoimmune response is I'm taken uh as a you know as a as a knock it it's not it it's it's just me describing the
• 17:00 - 17:30 nature and that that is perhaps a Perfect Analogy to it but ultimately the response is coming from people so being sensitive to how people operate you know their level of expertise in the current state of affairs and how processes are done right now is is important you can't just come in with look at my new shiny flashy idea this is great you you now must do it um that never that never sits
• 17:30 - 18:00 well with anybody right even as an engineer you know we we get we can get used to our ways of doing certain analyses or you know certain things being a truism But ultimately perhaps as technology grows whatever was true before or whatever was a limitation before is no longer a limit and we don't recognize it so not be being on uh you know being technology sensitive and being open-minded at one thing but to
• 18:00 - 18:30 recognize that there are people that you have to gain Buy in from uh and going through that those steps to actively generate that buy in prior to you know selling something as the ultimate solution which rarely is it ever um is important wonderful thank you I'd like then to follow up on that by asking have your future plans changed or or
• 18:30 - 19:00 what are your future plans now uh compared to what you talked about before so I I was rewatching the the interview and a lot of our discussion was focused on you know launching that piece of digital technology that we call bit calling BDC now um the the answer is yes and no so I think the the no I'll I'll describe the no part of why
• 19:00 - 19:30 nothing's changed because I still think that piece of technology from the scope of our conversation that we had two year two or three years ago that hasn't changed because the the focus is still we want to launch this piece of technology we believe this piece of technology to be beneficial and um the digitization of how we build will allow us to scale in certain ways faster if we don't for instance uh AI nowadays well
• 19:30 - 20:00 we were already talking about it maybe two and a half years ago but certainly no one was playing around with AI generated images the same way as it's been been done now right so to leverage uh actual AI um to do any design or any like this is very very future State stuff that I'm talking about right obviously we're not touching it now but you know trying to scan 2D drawings into into an system and telling it to play
• 20:00 - 20:30 around with that versus having a digitized model of all the homes that we build I could I would imagine you know it's it's a pretty clear winner of how much information you're handing over to the you know the AI to process the 3D model would be leagues above right and that would yield if anybody's played with the image generator that's so popular nowadays they the more information you feed it the better the AI provides an outcome right that's uh
• 20:30 - 21:00 again it's another truism for our day today so if that's what we're seeing now um having a digitize outcome for our designs is still as important as when we first talked two and a half years ago so that's that's the no part to why you know the goal of that particular subset of my work hasn't changed um but the yes part is I think again the same way as my
• 21:00 - 21:30 scope has increased and and has changed you know my title from Bim and strategic sourcing to apply Technologies the the way I view the scope of what I can bring as impact to to Mad me has also changed so not not necessarily changed but widen I would say so my in in my current role I and I try not to use the word R&D or research develop simply because it's that again becomes
• 21:30 - 22:00 more of a pigeon huling statement than you know Applied Technologies would be but ultimately I think what we uh what the team that I've created will bring benefit to madom for is a way to look at new technologies and find a test bed for it and and have it incubated without disrupting how our operations goes and then having a you know a again within my team the
• 22:00 - 22:30 relationship buildup that you were referring to earlier knowing where the pain points are and then working with the business to find a non-disruptive way to implement any of these you know identified applicable apply technologies that we can launch and then sort of feeding it into the business in a in a sensible way is the way I look at what I'm doing so it's not going to be just limited to one piece of digital technology it could be you know Hardware
• 22:30 - 23:00 improvements it could be process changes which I alluded to earlier um and many many other things that improves the business so ultimately my goal of making the way we do Home Building better has not changed but the approach to it and my sense of purpose in terms of the scope that I might be able to touch that has changed hopefully makes sense yeah I
• 23:00 - 23:30 think so and it it seems to suggest that your relationship with the business is closer and broader which uh which seems that that would be a reflection of a an increased confidence and recognition of the value of what you do I certainly hope so so do I okay my last question's quite simple but but but at the same time very open um it is uh you gave
• 23:30 - 24:00 advice at the end of your interview last time to the people who were watching it and I thought it give you the same opportunity again to really just say now you're uh you you you're you're a bit older a bit more experienced uh what advice would you give today it's uh again interestingly enough and I think I I forgot if we talked about it earlier I'm pretty sure we did but when uh you know when you asked me for a followup I I I told you straight
• 24:00 - 24:30 up that I couldn't remember where things sat uh during our last interview because so much has happened in the past couple of years um and so I did rewatched the recording of our last interview uh and I will what I will say right here right now is that everything I said during the you know during the advice portion of our interview Still Still Rings true to me today and it's still it's the advice that I would give myself
• 24:30 - 25:00 if I was talking to myself back then too so nothing from that has changed but um I will I will add one more thing that we didn't necessarily talk about and I think sort of underscores some of the learnings that I've had that I've shared with uh you and your U whoever will watch this video today uh which is staying Nimble is a bit an important task so never never being too engrossed
• 25:00 - 25:30 into what is right or or what you think is right or wrong um and keeping that open mind keeping that that creativity and keeping keeping at the back of the mind at your of your mind to know that what you're doing is new right and well anybody who's looking at digital management or you know looking at integrating new technology you know what you're doing is is new and
• 25:30 - 26:00 even though it's new it's flashy it's shiny it's apparently better you don't know what what the benefits truly are or how to fully integrate the benefits until you actually deploy so keeping an open mind being Nimble being willing to Pivot and also just simply being able to admit that you were wrong I think is an important um attribute for anybody who intends to go down this path uh and it
• 26:00 - 26:30 is a very fun path um because you're looking at new stuff but don't uh also do not disregard what is and I think this was part of what I said last time too but do not disregard the existing ways because there's there's a reason why it's existing it works right and so learning from why the existing way works um and why there might be a
• 26:30 - 27:00 um sort of a mismatch in terms of perception to what this new way is will will give you an in to figure out how to actually deploy this properly and ultimately it's not about deploying the technology again as I said that that widen scope and widen perspective on what what we're actually trying to do is we're trying to make improvements right so sometimes taking a couple of steps back and knowing certain improvements need to be made before you can fully
• 27:00 - 27:30 realize the benefits of that technology really is that it really is important and finally I think it's U and I'll you know give a shout out to the company I worked for mie Holmes uh working for and finding a company with leaders that are open-minded and are willing to let you experiment act willing to let you exist right is very important too because not not a lot of businesses are willing
• 27:30 - 28:00 to um you know spend the time the effort the the resources to look at things differently if things are already working right the whole adage of why fix it if it ain't broken you know Rings true in a lot of businesses but having a bu working for a business and you know being in an environment where change is welcomed as long as it you know brings Improvement as long as you prove it you
• 28:00 - 28:30 know it's that is uh of in my mind of ultimate importance simply because without the support of you know Senior Management across multiple different departments uh what I'm trying to do right now like it wouldn't happen and I wouldn't I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you about it because simply this role or this this team that I'm and buildings that wouldn't
• 28:30 - 29:00 exist thank you for talking to me Derek the advice youve provided there I think is uh is very solid advice one of the messages there would be uh to stay humble and responsive to listen uh and this of course is a message that we uh that we emphasize very strongly but but not everyone does it there are lots of people who don't do it and there are negative consequences from that and uh uh it's fascinating to me to be able to
• 29:00 - 29:30 talk to you again after uh the the two or three years since we've spoken before uh and to see how things have progressed and to see how your views have changed and what you've learned from your experience it's very impressive and I'm grateful to you for talking to me about it well thanks for having me back and pleasure is all night