Unlocking the Cyprus Enigma

Διαπραγματευτές του Κυπριακού εξηγούν τι συμφωνήθηκε

Estimated read time: 1:20

Summary

In this riveting conversation led by Fidias Cyprus, two exceptional negotiators unravel the complexities behind the long-standing Cyprus issue. Delving deep into the heart of the matter, they reveal that 95% of the solution has already been agreed upon. Highlighting governance, power sharing, territorial adjustment, property, economy, and security, they articulate the progress made over decades and outline the challenges that remain. With a hopeful undertone, they emphasize the significance of unity and cooperation, envisioning a future where the reunification of Cyprus brings prosperity and stability to the whole region.

Highlights

The Cyprus negotiations have tackled six core areas for building a federated state 🌍.
A rotating presidency between communities was proposed to ensure equitable governance 🚦.
Territorial adjustments include removing wired lines for a seamless Cyprus 🇨🇾.
The security solution aims to abolish unilateral military intervention rights ⚔️.
A unique property compensation framework is proposed to handle dispossessed ownership issues 🏠.

Key Takeaways

95% of the Cyprus solution is agreed upon; a testament to decades-long negotiations 🤝.
The plan encompasses governance, power sharing, territorial adjustments, and much more 🗺️.
Security remains a sensitive area, needing careful navigation to satisfy all parties 🛡️.
Unity and political will are crucial to moving forward and avoiding failure 🚀.
The envisioned solution aligns Cyprus closely with EU standards, facilitating smoother integration 🇪🇺.

Overview

The Cyprus issue has been a puzzle for over half a century, but negotiators have managed to agree on 95% of the potential solution. This comprehensive plan involves governance, territorial adjustments, and power sharing designed to bring peace and stability to the island. Despite being so close to a solution, the remaining challenges, particularly concerning security and guarantees, require delicate handling and sincere political will to overcome.

Both communities have a history of division; however, with strategic territorial adjustments and fair power-sharing mechanisms like a rotating presidency, the plan aims to usher in a new era of unity. Removing arbitrary borders and implementing a fair property compensation scheme are pivotal steps towards easing tensions and promoting harmony among Cypriots.

As a member of the EU, Cyprus benefits from frameworks that support political and economic integration. The proposed solution capitalizes on these benefits, aiming to fully align Cyprus with EU legal standards, thereby paving the way for a more prosperous, cooperative future. The journey isn't over, but the hard work of these negotiations is a solid foundation for lasting peace.

Chapters

00:00 - 00:30: Introduction and Context The chapter discusses the negotiations surrounding the Cyprus problem, which is divided into six main areas: governance and power sharing, territorial adjustment, property, economy, EU matters, and security and guarantees. The chapter highlights that 95% of the solution was agreed upon. In terms of governance, it mentions that the United Cyprus would have a president and a vice president.
00:30 - 01:00: Governance and Power Sharing This chapter discusses the concept of governance and power sharing, particularly in the context of a federation where traditional majority rule does not apply. It mentions a proposed six-year rotation period with roles such as a Greek-Cod president for four years and a Turkish counterpart for two years. The discussion highlights the importance of accommodating minority groups within this framework, suggesting territorial adjustments as a form of compromise. Specifically, a map was proposed to redraw the Turkish border towards the north, which would involve transferring some territory to the Greek side as part of these adjustments.
01:00 - 01:30: Territorial Adjustment and Property The chapter discusses the removal of borders and the establishment of a property commission, which acts like a court, to address property issues arising from territorial adjustments. The focus is on the challenges of compensating dispossessed property owners, with questions raised about the source of the necessary funds.
01:30 - 02:00: Economy and EU Matters The chapter titled 'Economy and EU Matters' discusses key issues related to economic convergence and the role of the European Union in ensuring objectivity and independence. The conversation highlights a desire to prevent any side from being permanently more affluent than the other and emphasizes the importance of adopting EU regulations. Additionally, the chapter touches on security and guarantees but notes a stalled discussion, suggesting a need for more information.
02:00 - 02:30: Security and Guarantees In this chapter titled 'Security and Guarantees', the opening discussion revolves around the principle that ensuring one's security should not come at the expense of compromising another's security. The text suggests a foundational agreement that internal affairs should remain untouched by external entities. Additionally, there's a mention of troop withdrawal, implying a call for the removal of military presence, although it remains unclear if this is agreed upon. The narrative seems to hint at a cautious approach, advising against rash actions or decisions.
02:30 - 03:00: Historical Context and Future Prospects The chapter titled 'Historical Context and Future Prospects' discusses the importance of unity and political will in resolving issues through a referendum. It highlights the strength of what unites people over what divides them, emphasizing that failure is not an option as it would have significant consequences.

Διαπραγματευτές του Κυπριακού εξηγούν τι συμφωνήθηκε Transcription

00:00 - 00:30 we have here the two negotiators that negotiated the Cyprus problem for many years you guys said 95% of the solution is a greed what has been a greed the Cyprus uh problem was divided into six main headings governance and power sharing territorial adjustment property economy EU matters and then security and guarantees regarding governance and power sharing the United Cyprus would have a president and a vice president then like van and
00:30 - 01:00 Trump the rotation would likely be for a six-year uh period 4year Greek Cod president two year turkey you don't think this will be a problem in a federation you go beyond the idea that majority rules because the minority would always be territorial adjustment was simple there was a map Turkish current uh border would be drawn towards north so there was going to be a Handover of territory to the Greek side
01:00 - 01:30 so remove the Border completely um um coming to property immediately there was going to be a property commission established it would act almost like a court imagine how many billion are necessary in order to compensate all those dispossessed owners that will not be able to recover their properties where do we find the money money or still with
01:30 - 02:00 the main issue under economy was how do we make sure that there is economic convergence between the both sides we don't want one side to be permanently more Rich what's the role of the European Union it's the best guarantee of objectivity and Independence you said we need to be adopting all the regulations like every other European country yes and now we're going to the elephant in the room Securities and guarantees we got stuck in order to say more we said we need to hear more on the
02:00 - 02:30 first five paragraphs and engage in a give and take one of the first things we agreed was that the security of the one is not at the expense of the security of the other eventually you can not have any Third Country having right to interfere with internal affairs you would see start a withdrawal of troops with call for all the troops to be removed no no that was uh don't rash
02:30 - 03:00 don't rash we want to do in both communi a referendum to accept this solution not that Neary this is not necessarily what we want it's the spirit and it's the political will if it is there all the remaining uh issues could have been resolved what unites us it's much much stronger than what divides us failure is not an option because if we fail I don't
03:00 - 03:30 want to think ladies and gentlemen this is a very very special event we have here in front of us the two negotiators that they negotiators the salus problem for many years and our goal with this conversation today me personally and I know a lot of cypriots and many people around the world would like to know for a lot of years of negotiation it's been
03:30 - 04:00 50 years that we have this conflict de will say more years that we have this conflict uh what has been agreed and I know you guys said most of the times 95% of the things that it's kind of the Cypress problem for the solution is agreed so I want to really understand what is this 95% that was been agreed how the next day of the solution looks
04:00 - 04:30 like the stage is yours from the Turkish cot community and from the Greek cior Community o Nami and mavan Andreas maranis um so this you know 95% is a figure of speech it's not an exact number but it just means that uh by cran Montana we were very close and on most of the issues that we put on the table um um we had either total convergence or
04:30 - 05:00 very near to Total convergence with some differences but um in order to give you an idea what was initially done even before Andreas and myself uh started negotiating during the previous rounds of talks um the Cyprus problem was divided into six main headings governance and power sharing which was traditionally seen as the most
05:00 - 05:30 important one was from both of the communities from both of the communities um so how the country will be run under a federal system so um that's governance and power sharing um then there was the property issue another chapter um then there was um economy um EU matters EU matters is a whole has a whole has a different that's
05:30 - 06:00 the fourth that's the fourth then um territorial adjustment that's the fifth the maps and everything um and then security and guarantees so these were the six main headings um under each heading you would get subheadings so for example under governance and power sharing you would have how are we going to run the executive is it going to be presidential system is it it going to be
06:00 - 06:30 a parliamentary system um then legislative body okay the parliament is it going to be just one house or are you going to have a senate and the lower house how will people be elected there how will decisions be taken um then um Judiciary the courts um public administration how will people be employed uh within uh
06:30 - 07:00 governmental departments how will operations be run who will take decisions what if there is a a disagreement uh along communal lines so on and so forth so you know subheadings like this on um property okay so we have to respect property rights but events happened division happened population movement happened people died we have
07:00 - 07:30 there um you know um people who inherited prop how are we going to respect properties for both communities because people now are living in the houses of Turkish cot in the Greek cot and people Turkish C are living in the houses of GRE yes and many years passed so how are we going to respect property right are we going to reinstate are we going to compensate are we going to exchange change or a combination of
07:30 - 08:00 these remedies who will pay for this in what time how will people be confident that they will be getting payment what amount what levels those kind of things um and um so on and so forth regarding EU there were many details uh uh we were lucky to have Andreas who had a lot of expertise on how EU functioned EU has lots of bodies because you had also the presidency as
08:00 - 08:30 well it help the EU he was responsible for the presidency of Cyprus in EU yes but not only this FAS you know my whole life I worked for this I was one of the people since the 80s working for the accession of Cyprus to the EU then after the accession I was permanent representative to the EU for three years and then Deputy Minister and I had to organize and uh be responsible for running the first Cyprus presidency and
08:30 - 09:00 um beyond the technical things I was trying to instill if you like the notion of the political significance of operating within the EU how a federal system can work within the EU framework and I had the chance to have o still uh who was having the same way of thinking so how do you think we should do I think
09:00 - 09:30 we should get these six chapters start from the government one and start describing how it was going to be if you agree with this over you think there's a better of course I don't mind but it's um I'm not so sure whether in a podcast like this um we can really um go into lots of uh details but to give you an idea on what in a podcast like this you can go in a well I mean then you need you really need documents like shows to
09:30 - 10:00 people really to understand and digest so we can just maybe try to give an overview overview if if uh we had managed in cran Montana to sign what kind of United Federal Cyprus would not everyone knows maybe from the international viewers we're talking about 2017 it was it was the conversation that we it came very close to a solution exactly so um it was an amalgamation of all these years of work
10:00 - 10:30 so if we were able to sign a deal um and it's very important if we start again we shouldn't and I don't think we will go back to other conversations to scratch everything that was being done in the previous year so we're going to continue from kind of the same fundamentals or not this is what we believe should be done now whether the current uh you know people in power are willing to do it this is another the story but don't
10:30 - 11:00 forget that both myself and ostil Nami are we are former negotiators we are not running the show right now but for us very clearly you know we need to make whatever we can in order to uphold all those convergences this 95% which has been agreed otherwise if
11:00 - 11:30 we start uh you know undermining this and opening again the issues we will never we will never make it therefore ER I I would say and I agree 100% with the description uh by your Ste of the various areas if you like H and true on most of them most of them we have so
11:30 - 12:00 much progress that the we were considering that the remaining divergences were really breach so so and we're talking about the 5% now and as you guys explain me I'm going to give a brief explanation the 5% was not agreed because it's this 5% that will have some differences but if we sit down to the table it's a given and take okay this is important for us you give us this this is important for us and this is how the
12:00 - 12:30 5% was going to be indeed H I would add that there are also some technicalities and things that have to do with the quality of the outcome and not necessarily A give a take in the sense that you know it's like a an oriental Bazar there are some very fundamental things you know 5% is really you know the most sensitive that
12:30 - 13:00 usually remain open but but we were really confident that yes it was possible and we can uh you know go a bit a bit further in depth on each one of those issues not very very deeply because es still says this is impossible in the course of just a couple of hours but we can
13:00 - 13:30 describe you know what what has been agreed and what remains open in order to give you an idea of how much work has been put into this but going back a little bit to the history of the negotiation you know H negotiations in Cyprus started already in 68 uh in in a different context then we
13:30 - 14:00 had you know a people are telling us and books are writing that in the beginning of the 70s they came close to an understanding under different circumstances of course after 74 things changed fundamentally and there was the separation and the presence of the Turkish Army and in 77 there was the first understanding on
14:00 - 14:30 the idea of a federation and this was fundamental because so far uh the Greek cus at least Federation means mean means that you have you have uh two constituent communities in a federal system then this was fundamental for the Greek cots it was meaning that they would be ready to completely
14:30 - 15:00 transform the structure of the state to transform it into a federation and in exchange the expectation of the Greek cot this was fundamental idea if you like the we would get reunification withal of troops and return of the displaced person this was in our mind at the time then of course you know over the years this
15:00 - 15:30 idea took a sh a more concrete shape and it evolved in what we call today into the Bic communal bonal Federation with political equality as described in un resolutions and this framework is indeed defined in many United Nation Security Council resolutions so we are not talking now in a vacuum with there is a framework which is defined by the United
15:30 - 16:00 Nations and we have given concrete expression to this through the negotiations in particular through the work which was done uh in the framework of the anal plan and even before that somehow with the budros Gali set of ideas then H in 2008 under christas and talad there were a lot of convergences
16:00 - 16:30 was still was involved at the time not myself during the first christop talad period and then in 2013 we started a new effort if you like which ER led us to in 2014 to the common Declaration of the 11 February of 2014 which laid the ground for all the negotiation that followed in particular
16:30 - 17:00 between 2015 and 2017 when the leader of the tury superior Community was Mustafa Ki and The Negotiator wasami during this period which was somehow the Engen era of the effort you know we built on what the work that was done before so uh we never thought that we would start again and this is what
17:00 - 17:30 allowed us allowed us to to move H so fast and and come so close be because you know we were ready and willing to respect the previous convergences of course you know on some issues we had some you know who wanted to see you know maybe this can be done better this way Etc but there was was a
17:30 - 18:00 fundamental understanding if you don't manage to agree on a change you keep what you already had so and this and the fact that we managed to go to Geneva in January 2017 and tan Montana in June July 2017 by itself is an expression of the progress because there was uh somehow an
18:00 - 18:30 understanding that we will be able to talk about territory and security and guarantees only if we have sufficient progress in the other matters and since in November 2017 uh 16 sorry we managed to go to monan to discuss territory this was a signal that guys were approaching the
18:30 - 19:00 end and then January 2017 we started discussing security guarantees so we had the whole package and this by itself is significant of what I was saying that we were close I agree so I want to mention two things looking at the future um I also think that you cannot start from from scratch but um uh
19:00 - 19:30 I ne had started my negotiator position with Mr George jakovo who was The Negotiator of late hopas and we created all these convergence papers then there was the period of um anastasis ero where nothing really happened and it sort of um collapsed almost everything then Aken got elected and uh we resumed
19:30 - 20:00 negotiations and uh both sides wanted to change uh things from the period of talat and chopas and like Andreas said we didn't say no nothing can change we both agreed that we can make an attempt if you know these are not um god-given like a Bible or something these are man-made agreements if somebody has a better idea we should open for it but
20:00 - 20:30 before starting to negotiate we agreed on a principle that we are going to engage in a new exercise for only a limited time if I'm not mistaken we allowed ourselves two weeks or three weeks or something we will go over all the talat hopas convergences if somebody has a suggestion for a change they it can be put on the table there can be a brief discussion if we agree we change it if not the previous agreement stands
20:30 - 21:00 okay so this was the methodology which worked very well a lot of things changed no not not but some some things were improved we were both happy with the changes because you know Cyprus um experienced a lot of things under EU membership some mentalities changed uh we lived through some things there were changes in the north as well but yes I mean I mentioned it earlier there was an
21:00 - 21:30 allusion to this uh you know on the U matters um we have changed quite a few things because you know I don't want to boast about my experience but you know I had some ideas and I was very happy to have oami as my interlocutor he would understand exactly the reasons behind my you referred previously is that you changed some things in you
21:30 - 22:00 yes without without upsetting the imbalance but in order to ensure uh more functionality this was the idea how can this uh New State of Affairs operate within the European Union framework this is an example of how we could improve things yeah indeed so in the end you asked another question how would it look like yes so basically basically the if we had an agreement what there were
22:00 - 22:30 some there were going to be some fundamental changes first there was going to be a territorial adjustment you want to go by the territorial you want to go by the governments how do you you are going to I'll try to take it from the simple to the more complex okay territorial adjustment was simple there was a map Turkish um current uh border would be drawn towards north so there was going to be a Handover of territory to the Greek
22:30 - 23:00 site um and there was going to this was not going to be done the remove the Border completely yes the Border there was not going to be any wired lines anymore no mines no nothing okay but just like within Europe uh on the map there was going to be this imaginary line but on the ground you wouldn't see maybe you would see some signs like in uh Belgium you see signs changing from uh Flemish to uh Dutch but
23:00 - 23:30 French it would be something like that but you wouldn't have Gates or whatever or controls or controls or nothing U so this was going to be one big change the the second one you would see a with start withdrawal of troops um start yes start so there again there was going to be a calendar and this was going to be um reviewed by with call for all the troops to be
23:30 - 24:00 removed no no that was uh don't rush don't rush okay but you would see some of the remaining some start okay okay um then coming to property immediately there was going to be a property commission established so people would be able to uh take their property claims uh to this commission it would act like a almost like a court people would produce their documents mentation make their property claims and this court
24:00 - 24:30 would look okay who has this property now for both sides so example my father for example has property some fields and stuff in theth so what was going to happen so it for let's make a hypothetical case you would say that um this world BL belonged to my grandfather and I am emotionally attached to it I want it back um and the court will say okay we note down your uh request let's
24:30 - 25:00 see what the current situation is is there a user what has happened maybe they will look and they will see a big apartment block on the farm of your grandfather they will tell you sorry that uh farm that you were dreaming of and you were seeing the picture no longer exists there is an apartment and there are many buildings around so the life has changed dramatically therefore we will compensate you for the land judge and how much this this Jud this
25:00 - 25:30 commission would from what who money who who puts the money okay one by one first the decision okay so the court will look at the case based on its merits of the claimant and the the current user uh so dispos we would call it dispossessed owner in this case you would be the dispossessed owner and the current user would be the people living in the apartment building and the court would decide the the main objective was let's respect the property right rights but without causing a lot of dis disturbance
25:30 - 26:00 to the daily lives of people but let's say um your land was empty before we go to my land so is the other person that is living in my apartment that de buil the comple apartment complex going to give something back no he all um according to the system that we have these properties have been allocated to people uh based on a system either they gave up their
26:00 - 26:30 title deed of their property in the South or the state created a law saying that this is your property take it so it's a responsibility of the state okay so the current user would not have to pay so now the in the north the the state have gave titles to to all the lands basically most of the land most of
26:30 - 27:00 the land has been distributed now to new new owners okay so um when the time comes to settle the property issue of course we would have to find money okay because we distributed more than we had so how are we going to find the money then we worked so nobody of us is getting affected and nobody of uh you guys is getting affected that economically we need to
27:00 - 27:30 economically let us finish first so everybody I'm trying to understand this would be the conversation how look like mess out of this property um Arrangement nobody would lose money so um Greek cypriots who left property in the north they are property rights which are not respected right now only minimally um would be respected but this doesn't
27:30 - 28:00 mean property would be reinstated in every case we had three remedies reinstatement compensation exchange so either the property would be given back if there is no user it is empty it didn't really change much it is possible to give it back then it would be given but but where is the line for example if someone is having a farm there it's okay to get it back okay so there were detailed criteria for to be given to the
28:00 - 28:30 commission so that the commission would be able to make objective decisions to the extent that we could okay so uh there there would be straightforward cases it was an empty land now it has a building on it we called it significant Improvement so if it is significant Improvement you cannot give it back you would give the value of the land and there was a formula to establish the
28:30 - 29:00 what is the value of the land okay so it would not be up to the judge what's the formula to establish the value it's bit complicated to explain right now but it would not be up to the judge just to say this is enough for you take it and go no there would be a formula uh based on which these values would be um it would be also some emotional damage I don't know given don't okay so let's say let's say um and this was one of the uh remaining
29:00 - 29:30 um disagreements with we had um uh there is uh a a house and there is someone living in it okay and the house will be within the area to be given back to the Greek cypriot side but there's a Turkish cypriot family there normally you would say okay the uh because the area will be returned to the Greek cypriate side if
29:30 - 30:00 there was a Greek cypriate um owner who wants his house back it should be given back however we said as the turkey side listen um we have and they also raised this issue there is this concept of emotional attachment okay and this could be happen in a house in kiria also that if there is such a case where either the
30:00 - 30:30 dispossessed owner or the current user can claim an emotional attachment okay which can override the claim of the current user that should be taken into account so we even went into details uh like this so for example in an area to be given back to the Greek ciet side if in that old house since 74 a Turkish family is living and they say
30:30 - 31:00 we are happy to live under Greek ciate Administration please don't kick us out we have been living in this house for 60 years we have planted all these trees our children and grandchildren all grew up and the person who now claims never lived it because the original owner died and he left the house to his grandchild who has even never even seen the house so let's take the emotional connection and let's um the same could happen for a
31:00 - 31:30 house in kiria okay um someone may claim emotional attachment saying that the current user can be uh easily located somewhere else please take this into consideration so you said one thing just to clarify so you said some places they will be given up but I thought that the whole it will not be B no bords but but we're talking about and by communal bonal Federation this concept means that that
31:30 - 32:00 will be two areas one area that will be administered by the turkey Superior Community majority and the other area administered by the Greek super commun so now we come to the government no no not only not only because now the area under the control of the turkey cpos is 37% the understanding was that in the framework of the settlement this area
32:00 - 32:30 will come down to somewhere around 29% in Greek cot we proposed 30 28.2 and Mr AI proposed 29.2 so it will be somewhere there if you like which means that there will be 8% of the territory that will be returned under Greek cot Administration
32:30 - 33:00 and it's not just you know any area it would be areas that have a a very important significance in terms of population because let's say famagusta if you return 2% of the territory you have 35,000 displaced persons that will be able to return okay so it's strategically yes yes this is a discussion we were
33:00 - 33:30 having therefore the idea the overall idea is that most of the dispossessed and the displaced persons will be able to return under a Greek cior Administration so so this is one we didn't finalize there were remaining remaining questions there but but we made also and this
33:30 - 34:00 was based on uh decisions of the European Court of Human Rights we made a distinction between property rights and right to return those are two different things you know we agreed that and this was a very important thing that there is respect for property rights so nobody is
34:00 - 34:30 losing his rights but as o still mentioned what kind of Remedy you are going to provide whether is reinstatement you go back to the property whether is you know alternative property exchange whatever this remains to be discussed in the framework of the property commission but but very very important there was also an understanding for the
34:30 - 35:00 right of return to your home if you had a home and the home is still there as still was saying that is cases of significant Improvement changes and if the home is still there and you have a really emotional attachment which means that you lived in the house and your kids lived in the house and they were of
35:00 - 35:30 age to have memories you get priority and you return to your home if you don't have this emotional attachment it's just property and property is a different thing because property can receive other remedies you can receive you know compensation can receive a change can receive other remedies but we were paying particular attention
35:30 - 36:00 to the emotional link of the people to their properties so and and very very important because you asked the question earlier I just one thing was still and I I finish no talk beyond beyond beyond uh this idea of significant Improvement which you understand it's very important as I still was saying you had a farm and now on the farm there is a development
36:00 - 36:30 big hotel what are you going to do are you going to destroy the hotel in order to give you back the property you cannot so this significant Improvement is a very important Dimension and on this we were almost there we both sides accepted the otion ETC and we were ready and willing to accommodate the respective
36:30 - 37:00 difficulties uh and this is where the Secretary General in cran Montana came in with this idea to give more importance to the uh current uses in the areas that will remain under the turkey C Administration and more importance to the dispossessed owner in the areas that will go under Greek cypriot
37:00 - 37:30 Administration but in any case there was something for me fundamental if you like we had this property commission that will have to decide on the claims of the of the dispossessed owners first and and this is a fundamental difference with between the Anan plan and what was on the table in 2017 in the Anan plan the an plan was
37:30 - 38:00 2004 2004 that agreed and came to referend not agreed came to referendum came to referendum because there was there was different there was arbitration so it was not a real agreement there were a lot of things agreed but eventually the agreement would come through the referendum but on property there the idea was that the the
38:00 - 38:30 agreement itself was casting what would happen with property somhow in stone you you didn't have the right to say much 2017 we agreed that you have a property commission you file your claim there is a decision if you are happy fair enough if you are not happy you go to the property Court have an appeal and there again there is a decision if you are
38:30 - 39:00 happy very well if you are not happy it is considered that you have exhausted the domestic remedies and you go to the European Court of Human Rights So eventually the system we established was fully in compliance with European standards and this is a fundamental difference with what was happening in the the Anan plan where you didn't have any say and any recourse and remember
39:00 - 39:30 that in 2004 you were against the Anan plan and this was one of the one one one of the reasons but there were others in particular for me related to H security and guarantees and more than that the very tight link that was established in the Anan plan between the implement mentation of the agreement and the
39:30 - 40:00 accession of turkey to the European Union and on this one uh history proved that I was right we are now 21 years later and there is no accession of turkey to the European Union imagine if we were to link the implementation of the agreement to the accession of turkey so this was this another story you know interesting uh you mentioned uh about some Greek uh territories that we were going to get under the governments of
40:00 - 40:30 the Greek Cate Community yes percent like what give us some example what was the areas that were famagusta but like what are Fusta a lot of areas in morua many The Villages of mesia it's kind of kind of moving a bit closer to the bord not getting other things from the in inside in the corner there are
40:30 - 41:00 there will be a new line you know the percentage kind of moving the new line to line by the way I'm like so times I'm afraid to say Bor there or this because people very confused this and you know what you do you say without prejudice without prejudice means that you know you use whatever terminology you want it does not mean that what I'm using mean is formal excuse me people but but but but
41:00 - 41:30 yes you know there there are various categories of properties as was saying there are most of the properties in the north were allocated not all of them however there is property which was not allocated of course this in particular what is today military zones this different because there is no there is no current User it's easier to return it
41:30 - 42:00 to their uh dispossessed owners there are also and on this one we have an agreement there are uh the religious sites the churches Etc and for this for the area of the building of the church again this will be returned so there are various categories if you like of properties but just to imagine kind of moving the line of but the line the line the line will move this is this is a
42:00 - 42:30 territor % ofine and and this 8% is not the slopes of pendulos is areas that were deeply inhabited so so this will make a significant difference because the most important thing is how many properties you have to REM through alternative means and this
42:30 - 43:00 affects also fundamentally the cost imagine how many billion are necessary in order to compensate all those uh dispossessed owners that will not be able to recover their properties and then the same applies for the properties of the turkey cot in the South you know it's both both directions so now we come to the money where do we find the money or still to pay for all this St money or
43:00 - 43:30 still with no I mean um like Andreas said there was going to be a territorial adjustment of course he is saying 8% we were saying less but we would uh we our difference was 1% um so but it was true that we were trying to pay attention to make this uh line um to the best that we can so that um uh the number of people who can
43:30 - 44:00 return under Greek supri Administration could be uh maximized um so after the territorial adjustment of course the property issue and as I said exchange compensation uh reinstatement uh but no matter how you slice the cake there would be some uh amount of money in needed so the idea was um for Turkey cypriots um currently almost all turkey cypriots
44:00 - 44:30 gave up their title deed to the um state so we would establish a body who would be um using all these title Deeds uh and either um to use it um to pay uh for the uh compensation or maybe develop those properties earn money and pay so there would go there was going to be some amount of money from the properties left Turkish properties left I'm confused how
44:30 - 45:00 how explain again how this happens the title ISS are now the South the title Deeds of all turkey cots not almost not all of them 75% I which is which is important we are given to the administration they don't belong anymore to the tury cot and in exchange they got properties in the north yes okay so so um ah on this side on on our side so the titles have been
45:00 - 45:30 given okay interesting yeah these properties in the South but the title Deeds are now in the hands of the state so the state would use these title Deeds um turn them into money and use that money to pay uh the compensation in our estimate this how do they turn them into money either sell or engage in property development or something sell how so these are Turkish properties they but
45:30 - 46:00 now people are living maybe okay so the property commission would look whether those uh can be sold if not if there is a current um user Greek ziot those title could be um used to exchange uh property okay it would lower the cost these title Deeds would lower the cost of the property settlement yes there is something important here on the Greek cot side the title Deeds were not touched upon so you have
46:00 - 46:30 users that use the property under the control of the commission we have uh for turkey cot properties let's say Lara okay Lara that was a whole uh I mean area that belonged to Turkey cots this area ER is now under the control of the Greek cots and of the government but we have not given title
46:30 - 47:00 Deeds you have users the property belongs probably to the tury authorities now so this is what we're talking about you know you you might have in McKenzie a property that is that belongs to now the tury super authorities so they will tell the user you know you want to buy give us money and you buy it
47:00 - 47:30 because he's a user he is not owner so they will make money yeah so or if you want to keep it then you have to give us your title deed if you have in the nor yes so all this this would lower the our estimate raise funding to be able to so our estimate was by using the property left in the South Turkish side would be able to finance about 1/3 1/3 of the year um really that much one3
47:30 - 48:00 another oneir would be dealt by territorial adjustment okay and another oneir would remain open and for that we would have to raise funds either through taxation how many billions were talking about it's billions it's billions I shouldn't give a clear number now because property prices exchange but it's in the billions um so one way or another don't say 510 is under 10 billion no no it's more 20 the total total was more but the
48:00 - 48:30 remaining remaining Gap would be around like I don't know um a few billion a few billion um Euros let's say so under 10 the remain yes the remaining C the remaining me the one3 you mean the 1/3 after territorial adjustment and after using now we're talking only about the north kind of property exchange it will be couble of 10 20 we talking about the totality of the property settlement okay the
48:30 - 49:00 entire the entire entire okay so the so is approximate 20 to 50 billion all together you cannot say you know you need to you need you need to but yeah if the totality is around 20 billion about oneir would be uh financed by the property left on The Other Side by one3 would be dealt by the territorial adjustment another one3 would remain uh of course this was by the property valuations who who did the number so is
49:00 - 49:30 these are correct experts we had at that time we had experts working on this uh so we contrust this uh I mean of course all these numbers need need to be updated now that's why I'm hesitant to give numbers property prices have changed many areas which were not developed in 2017 are now highly developed in the north so a a lot of things changed but I don't think the ratio Fair has changed a lot so around
49:30 - 50:00 onethird of it Turkish side would have to find money either by um um International donors or by raising um Taxation and find the money pay and then Turkish side would have to pay this in a longer duration in 10 years 20 years whatever to the uh institution that gave or the financing so I I think it is safe to say that proper issue which was thought to be one of the most difficult
50:00 - 50:30 and unsolvable issues we managed to solve it in a in a rational and way which was also implementable in a reasonable um time frame um so nobody would be left without uh his property claim being addressed um that leaves us so we talked about territory we talked about security a little bit we um we talked about we didn't talk about security all so I said TRS TR troops would start leaving
50:30 - 51:00 and stuff like but there are issues that uh were left uh regarding governance and power sharing our so we finished kind of the territory conversation I me this is the idea the idea idea okay there there was going to be a territorial adjustment a land would be given to South uh regarding property there was going to be an independent property commission taking the CL climes and giving either money or the property back or exchange
51:00 - 51:30 so this is the main idea um and we talked a little bit about financing um then regarding governance and power sharing we were we were going to continue for the Greek side with a presidential U model um so the United Cyprus would have a president and a vice president like the United States like the United States like van and Trump okay if right now so
51:30 - 52:00 and so the executive would be a presidential uh system um then the legis so they it was kind of forced for the Turkish super Comm to have the vice president or the president how like it was going to be in a rotating uh manner how many years it well I mean the rotation would uh likely be uh like for a six-year uh period four year Greek ciod two year turkey ciod because of our
52:00 - 52:30 of the going to switch the vice president to become president yes yes and by the way I should also note that in these agreements we never said for any of the agreements except for the um Senators um that you know this one will be a Greek cot this one will be a turkey ciate we always talked about from the more populace uh Community from the less populist community so the rotating rotation would be based on the population ratio so we didn't say
52:30 - 53:00 forever the president will be Greek cot four years and forever turkey cot two years no it would be based you don't think this will be a problem this will develop some problem because I think the Greek cot Community to have a president tur C for two years might have like a problem so I'm just saying about the solution for people to vote so you don't think this will be a problem
53:00 - 53:30 M no no I think I think uh you know there is no perfect solution uh but this is a way if you like in a federal system to respect fundamentally you know the rights and the ambition of both communities because you know in a federation you go beyond the idea that you know majority rules because it's a
53:30 - 54:00 different setup because because the minority would always be you know if you have this was this is a problem that uh you face in many situations like ours but in Cyprus we shouldn't forget that already the 1960 Constitution was not based on a centralized state with just majority rules there was there was a by by communal composition so we are
54:00 - 54:30 not inventing something something completely new it's if you like a way to accommodate the consern of both communities but fundamentally fundamentally and this is I think uh good for all of us to bear in mind the in the new setup where you are going to have two areas one administered by one Community the other administered by the other community which means that you
54:30 - 55:00 have like in other Federal systems you have local governments or Regional governments or whatever you know Federated governments and then you are going to have the federal level where as still was saying we're going to have you know the this uh rotating presidency on this ratio mentioned by you still going to have a council of ministers we have agreed that there will be seven Greek
55:00 - 55:30 cypriots and four turkey cypriot ministers and doesn't mean they take this uh Minister think of is you can allocate the minister in all the you can become agriculture yes yes we don't decide in advance which Ministries go to which uh constitu even on that there were some details that's why I said it's very difficult to explain everything in a podcast but even on that doing a good job although although that you know of
55:30 - 56:00 course the President and Vice President could allocate but we said like um um this either the Minister of Foreign Affairs or the treasur would go to the other community so there were some combinations yes that we paid attention to even to those details we had agreed we had agreed on those things okay what was been agreed about the minister no no no but but no but this connection you cannot have at the same time the ministry of defense and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs for
56:00 - 56:30 instance so there were combinations combin to the foreign Poli but but if I can finish on what I was saying before you know this system of course we're going to talk a little bit also about you know beyond the executive you have the legislative power and then you have the judicial power and the legislative we have agreed that the Senate because it represents the communal character of
56:30 - 57:00 the state you have 5050 the number of Senators on the the the chamber the parliament if you like the deputies there it's different because there there will be 75% representatives of the more populous Community currently the Greek cior community and 25% of the turkey C community in order to approve legislation you need both has to be
57:00 - 57:30 approved at the house has to be approved by the Senate so what explain May because this is kind of I no Senate in United States but what Senate really means it's it's another legislative chamber it's you have two bodies you have the Senate and you have the chamber both of them have similar Powers with some exceptions but on the legislation part have exactly the same powers for a
57:30 - 58:00 legislation to be adopted it needs to be approved by both bodies it's like in Europe we have the council and European Parliament okay but but there is condision but you know the council is not is not Representatives it's the states there you so but this is very important just to so for the legislature we had full agreement I
58:00 - 58:30 think no problem and and then you had the Judiciary again you will have a supreme court with equal numbers in order to guarantee if you like uh that both both constituent states are there but what I want call numbers for the Supreme Court Supreme Court what are the things that had equal numbers it was the Senate and Supreme Court yes yes but there are there are other things where is fundamental like independent bodies
58:30 - 59:00 you had yes but but you know it is important to know that the citizen on his daily life will have to deal more and mainly with the government of his entity of his Federated States and not with the federal level so for the citizen the federal level will be something that it will be completely out of his daily
59:00 - 59:30 life because we agreed to have some fundamental freedoms so freedom of movement throughout the island no problem there whatsoever freedom of settlement there there are some some small not very significant uh safeguards if you like that are required by the Turkish community mainly and the freedom to acquire property throughout the island
59:30 - 60:00 there again with some safe cards that are asked by the turkey Cal community in order to be in a situation where they have control over their area those three fundamental freedoms and then then also the Four Freedoms of the European Union free movement of goods free movement of persons three movement of capital three movement of services this will be
60:00 - 60:30 implemented so we are talking about a completely new structure so and this offers the best guarantees I have to add also something why it offers the you know because because it will be you have the guarantees of the European Union okay so so and then and then something which which was very significant was that we agreed on this
60:30 - 61:00 rotation in the presidency and the vice presidency on the ratio we mentioned but part of this agreement is also that there will be cross voting and weighted voting so so which means that one Community
61:00 - 61:30 participates to some percentage in the election in the other community so which by itself you understand allows a lot of stabilization of the system so it's not that like in 1960 the Greek cots elect the president and the turkey cypriots elect the vice president full stop and in the 1960 you know that the vice president was
61:30 - 62:00 not replacing the president in case of absence it was the speaker of the parliament in this system you are going to have this highest officials working together so and those things are very important because this is how you create the real interaction and you have the communities working for uh the common
62:00 - 62:30 interest yes I mean um that's we pay a lot of attention to not only to build stability but also uh interdependence because we believe that the main security comes from building interdependence and um uh another basic principle means which means that we need we will need each other you need each other need each other all the time so another principle was you know political
62:30 - 63:00 equality in what ways we need each CH no decision at the several level will be make without having all of them all the people the Council of ministers president vice president they will have to work together yeah but this this is the most important thing having this interdependence very strong interm dependance and at the several level and as I was saying earlier at the same time
63:00 - 63:30 at the level of the relationship of the citizen with the authorities this will be settled most of the time at the constituent level which will mean that the citizen will feel free yeah and this is basically the EU idea the European idea after the world world wars how what was the main instrument of Peace building interdependence started with coal and steel agreement and then creating other
63:30 - 64:00 institutions uh so that they can function together and if one collapse the other collapse but if one benefit everyone gets to benefit so we wanted to create a micros cosm of that idea um here based on political equality and based on effective participation because if one side does not feel equal then becomes resentful and works against the system well yes it makes total sense but this can be sometimes used against if is
64:00 - 64:30 interdependent one Community has to vet kind of the other in some important F fact that they are important to them maybe they are going to bring more conflict I don't know this is no you are right to think about this but we thought about this as well so we have in the system what we call deadlock resolving mechanism and we are not talking necessarily as the definition of political equality of equal numerical
64:30 - 65:00 participation but equality means that you can not you are not sidelined at all and and don't forget something which is also fundamental and I still mentioned it the European way of doing things which would entail in the case of Cyprus first and foremost you know 85% of our legislation is European
65:00 - 65:30 legislation so this will not be within the perview of our elected representatives to question it so most of the things will be solved at the level of Brussels Strasburg so then also very important with the European Union many powers are transferred to the commission to the council to at the EU level so we have
65:30 - 66:00 this supranational Dimension then we have the exact opposite for some of the remaining powers from the level of the state where they are currently they go based on proportionality and subsidiarity they go very close to the citizens so they are not exercised anymore at the national level where
66:00 - 66:30 conflicts will appear so through this Dynamics one going towards European integration and the other through proportionality subsidiarity you sort out most of the problems then for the remaining issues as I was saying you know you have this deadlock resolving mechanism and you have at the end of the day the need to have cooperation to sort out the
66:30 - 67:00 problems will be problems of course in all in all states there are problems even the best of the best but the most important is to create a solid system where the problems will not end up by spoiling and destroying the structures to the contrary as still was saying you know one will balance the other and eventually things are going to work so
67:00 - 67:30 and this is the main concern today of the Greek cots is functionality and I believe we have addressed it I believe that with what we have agreed the system will be sufficient sufficiently sufficiently functional in order to allow us to move move forward to leave this these difficulties we were facing in let us
67:30 - 68:00 still speak a bit more because you got so far 70% of the of the speaking time like the population close have you have you checked it no I don't think you're right but but but but but even even you know you know between myself and O still I'm very happy to give him 80% keep so so you know that we had occasions where
68:00 - 68:30 we were reporting for each other so so it's totally fine he got a training in as a lawyer but I got a training as a manager U so time of speaking is by by Nature a bit more exactly because in one of the basic things in management they teach you is to delegate so I this but um uh what's the story here you the thing is uh like everything else
68:30 - 69:00 establishing a a country estate an Administration is very much like um establishing your own life the way you treat your children and everything you do your best okay you try to give your child the best education the best environment and everything hoping that his life will also turn out to be good but if he doesn't make good of that opportunity he mixes with bad bad friends he gets hooked to bad habits
69:00 - 69:30 then you can't help him and he destroys his life what we tried to do for the future Generations was to create the environment conducive for their future Prosperity development but if they go down the track of Fanatics um hardliners extremist and destroy everything then that will be their fate we there is no guarantee to anything it's up to the Future generations to make use of what we try to create we try to create
69:30 - 70:00 something that minimizes the risks but you know in the world that we live in these extremists take one issue and put it under the microscope and overblow its importance and you forget all the other benefits that the system that you are currently living uh offers so what we did was in order to minimize the friction with between the two communities and decrease the resentment everything resentment will be there you
70:00 - 70:30 mentioned that it would be difficult for an average Greek cypriate to accept to see a Turkish cypriate as a president it would be a a hard compromise and for a Turkish cypriate it's a hard compromise to give up territory to open property files again to see the Turkish uh security umbrella being removed everyone will have but you you have to have a a a a balance sheet pluses on the one side
70:30 - 71:00 minuses on the other side and make your decision there will be minuses painful uh things to digest but there will be pluses and for our future we have to take uh all of them into consideration and as a package do we like it or not not a single issue now in order to uh minimize all this problems what we did was we agreed that the federal government should have a list of competences and really we try to keep it
71:00 - 71:30 to a minimum in order um to allow people to continue with their current daily lives taking their own constituent State as a counterpart and not having to deal with the federal government where you would have the two communities you know equal representation and effective participation but in many issues many in your daily lives you would be taken your own constituent State and for many many issues life would continue normally
71:30 - 72:00 especially for the Greek CIA side um and many issues would also be delegated to Brussels anyway and for those the federal government would be to a large extent uh in charge the second point I wanted to make was um this I I am trying to read my own uh writing this painal Con concessions I have mentioned effective participation and list of competences these are very
72:00 - 72:30 important issues for the future non-fiction operation of the federal government then the federal government would be controlled by whom by the legislative body the House of Representatives and the Senate plus an independent Judiciary body okay and also we have not talked about it we would have in dependent organizations which would be independent from the government everything and which would also act like
72:30 - 73:00 a quasi judicial bodies um to regulate competition for example um so we would have I don't think there is any other country around the world which was established after going through such an intense and extensive um uh attempt to build everything so that citizens would be able to continue their life as normally as they
73:00 - 73:30 can I mean I'm just uh thinking of all the countries they they got established with much much much less Preparatory they goal yes exactly so um it was it was um for all pract practical purpose it was there in great detail public administration how will be people uh be recruited to be a civil servant what kind of a mechanism who would decide you
73:30 - 74:00 know how are we going to respect uh the balances all these things were taken up very seriously uh by the contribution of lots of experts and we had a very serious body of work which was already uh there so we were not afraid to take this final step and uh create a new Cyprus based on uh such a model and with the assistance of our presence in the European Union would
74:00 - 74:30 facilitate a lot of the these things if we are talking about governments population is important so what was going to happen with the people that came after the the 1974 so we're go we would not go all Trump on them and uh no um you know each we agreed that um the citizens of each side uh would be the citizens of United
74:30 - 75:00 Cyprus we exchange numbers in order to create this agreement and when what are the numbers then in those in in that time the the numbers were such that the historic ratio was not distorted uh too much so it was okay for the Greek cian side um was 220,000 Turkish cyos and 800,000 Greek cyos it was
75:00 - 75:30 78% Greek cus around around you know without affecting okay the natural growth okay it's another story to talk about those that came from outside but if the birth rate of tury cpos is higher you are not going to tell them stop making okay so this was the beginning with the other people so they stay here no it's a responsibility of each constituent state if Mustafa Ki said my population is 20
75:30 - 76:00 220,000 it's up to him to keep it that way okay so we gave these numbers but this includes the people that came after we we to know okay because you how I'm just saying that I heard some rumors that maybe there is 700,000 they are not citizens those numbers are not citizens they are not Citizens first and second how are you going to make a distinction between somebody who came in
76:00 - 76:30 74 he has children he has grandchildren he has whatever married to a turkey cot so we don't want to enter into this what is important for us is not to change Dem voting right the demographic character of the citizens voting rights are attained by citizenship we are only talking about citizens right now many many foreigners attained cot citizenship and they are now living in lias or papos we would not tell them you are not an
76:30 - 77:00 original cypriot therefore we decided to unite and your citizenship is abolished no each side gave under different um procedures citizenship we agreed to respect those without questioning the ancestry Heritage whatever so what if you I don't know I'm just curious to understand this what if the Turkish Community decides to give their rights of for no no no no no no no no no no no this is for day one after the Federation
77:00 - 77:30 is established the power to Grant citizenship would belong to the federal government not to cons okay so 220,000 approx but we talking about 2016 now we don't know what the number okay so but but I mean at the time the ratio was respected and then we are going to control all together who gets the federal government so they will not you cannot like grow immediately no no the federal government would decide
77:30 - 78:00 regarding um those who will be naturalized but the natural birth rate for either Community neither federal government nor constituent States we're going to try do we know which birth rate is more out of the two communities ours is very low ours is 1.3 I think is we don't we are lower than the reproduction right that is necessary to keep the both of the community make kids anyway so uh
78:00 - 78:30 and regarding the other section of the your question which is also important then there are those who are living onos sides who are not citizens but they are living here what will happen those are there are here either because they are um here for to study at universities as students we have lots of them much more than you do or they came as workers you know they issued work permit again the work permit issuing the work permit
78:30 - 79:00 would be a federal uh government so depending on the needs of the uh economy so the constituent state will say I mean what are the criteria I need this many um people I can't find it locally therefore we we are going to issue a work permit so there was going to be this mechanism that allows economic growth we may have foreigners living here but attaining citizenship voting rights would be a totally a federal
79:00 - 79:30 competence and we managed also something very important which was at the end of K can Montana in place to say that you know Cyprus is and continued to be a member state of the European Union this means that all European citizens will have freedom to come and settle in Cyprus including of course people from Greece based on the a Comm the freedom
79:30 - 80:00 of movement of the European Union but what if you have this happening and turkey citizens do not have because turkey is not in the European Union and there we H we discussed it at length and and eventually we agreed on a proposal by the Secretary General which uh regulates the presence for long-term uh
80:00 - 80:30 contracts in Cyprus of turkey citizens after the settlement in order to keep the the proportions of the population and without at the same time if you like uh restricting completely and not have any equivalence between turkey City and Greek citizens in Cyprus so this it was complicated but eventually I think we
80:30 - 81:00 have we have emerged yes formula emerged there also so um as I said that's I have a question about the government still uh so uh I want an example of how a regulation was going to come out of this government so I want to REM B the police there is no Poli for example in Cyprus what in this system that you guys negotiated and created how the decisions was going to be made and who can interfere in with
81:00 - 81:30 president and Senate and Parliament and where it comes from just to understand a regular life of so the police we would have the federal police and the constituent State Police if you are um the president of the federal government you can only interfere with the federal police not the constituent State Poli so if you want to abolish the police this would you would course a hypothetical example because in the Constitution and you
81:30 - 82:00 cannot you need to change the Constitution but let's say you you want to reform another area under your under under your competence then you would have to prepare a piece of legislation and send it to the uh Parliament the lower house would debate and if they um manage to have the vote then they would have to send it to the Senate no you said there's 75% let's say Greek cot speaking people and tur so how
82:00 - 82:30 if they need to vote all the how this at least one quarter of the Turkish cypriots should also one one4 one fourth of of those okay so you can't have a legislation only voted in favor by one Community to be trans and the one4 is uh kind of symbolic as the population that is4 kind of yes but but what still says you know you cannot have legislation
82:30 - 83:00 adopted only with the votes of one Community but then what happens if they have a v in way no this is where normally if it were just like that but this is where we have deadlock resolving mechanism which is equal and which will end up by producing a result that might be good or less good and then anyway the other house where is 50/50 has also to
83:00 - 83:30 approve and there again there is a deadlock resolving mechanism which are which are that you know you gather a special committee with equal numbers and there are rules how this will work but you don't engage in deadlock resolving every thing if on some issues you can't have the requir and you don't have the legislation uh we're talking about things that important for the functioning of the Federation exactly so so so this this is but but the
83:30 - 84:00 initiative the initiative is uh the executive as is in all in all systems uh you know and then you can have something started at the level of parliament provided all the conditions that exist everywhere in the world that you cannot you know create additional expenses and these kind of things so it's the cooperation between the executive you have decision by the Council of ministers and then it goes to Parliament
84:00 - 84:30 this is how it works let's take one example let's say that there is an international treaty which was negotiated and accepted by Cyprus Etc this treaty will come to the Council of ministers it will have to be approved if it is approved by the Council of ministers we'll go to the parliament for uh ratification you has to pass from the
84:30 - 85:00 house it has to pass from the Senate once is ratified by Parliament the president of the country will keep the formal instrument of ratification so this is normal working of a system if you like with checks and balances yes and then if somebody is not happy you know you have the recourse to the Supreme Court which is so I think I got the picture of the government it's a bit
85:00 - 85:30 because for the people also and for me as well that I don't really understand yet the exactly how the C system works with all this stuff it's a bit hard to really imagine how it to look like because something different than we have now but I think I got the picture of this how it will happen so governments and territory we talked about it I think we talked also about about the matters and property did property is another of
85:30 - 86:00 the fourth six uh thing yes I as I counted governance and power sharing property territory security economy EU so we talked about territory and and prop property we talked about we talked about so but EU matters we didn't we we did there is not much more to say let's dive in a bit more on this so what so okay what's the role of the European Union is the exact so it will be like the we are now in European union and
86:00 - 86:30 then we need to be you said like we need to be adapting most of the all the regulations like every other European country yes and we have the court Sy European court system that we can go and this it's kind of you think is one of the best things that we have because we we're not allone to fight we have something higher to uh to the best guarantee of objectivity and
86:30 - 87:00 Independence so Brussels takes a decision and you need to transpose that uh decision to your own legislation okay Brussels will not take constituent States as a counterpart Brussels informs the federal government and then the federal government will look is this my competence if it is then what do I have to do within my bodies to make this part of my legislation and to implement it if it is a competence of the constituent
87:00 - 87:30 States then it will be the obligation of the constituent states to transpose their that EU legislation into their own legislation and the federal government will have the mechanisms to make sure that they are doing their work so that EU does not penalize the federal government so we had all those things figured out and how those interaction would take place you know because if you don't Implement then the federal
87:30 - 88:00 government will have to pay a fine let's say if the federal government has to pay a fine to the European Union because a Federate State a constituent state did not do their job the federal government will have the mechanism to recover the money from the constituent state so so it will work not to mention that you know when we're talking about the European Union you know the regulations and you know very well are mandat and they are
88:00 - 88:30 implemented throughout the European Union whatever happens the directives of the European Union normally have to be transposed they have to go through parlament and adopted in order to adjust the means that are necessary for the the country to implement the directives however the directives have a
88:30 - 89:00 a an expir day for uh the national authorities to adopt them if you don't adopt them by that deadline they become like regulations they become mandatory so you cannot escape and this is very important very very important they have direct implementation and direct effect so this
89:00 - 89:30 creates a system where the cooperation and where if you like the compliance is guaranteed not to mention you mentioned it earlier European court system and uh all those things that are related to the council to the commission everything this should not scare you all these lications because when seus became a member of the European Union I don't think the average man on the street was
89:30 - 90:00 aware of all these complicated workings of the European Union directives legislations transposition okay only a handful of but you had this idea that this will be good for us okay and you trusted the EXP was okay right and this was a good idea so I think this is how the unification reunification of Cyprus if it will ever happen will have to happen you know you will have to have this Basic Instinct
90:00 - 90:30 that this is this is good for us and we have to do this all right uh because the more details you go ah but what if this and what if that then you you become uh paralyzed you have to take this decision that all right we will be United okay it's not going to be one Community State anymore we will have to share power but in exchange our country will be reunited more safe more uh prosperity for all of us what about the Turkish seor Community do you think it will be hard to adjust
90:30 - 91:00 to because we are more come of to the EU regulat closer to do you think it would be harder to adjust immediately to a new yeah I mean I think that's going to be a very important Challenge and actually during our negotiations we recognize this as a huge challenge for turkey cus to adopt and Implement and the this was also a source of um concern for the Greek cypriot voters during the previous period we have seen this because they were saying but we
91:00 - 91:30 have adopted all these EU and we have increased our standards and turkey cyprius are not there yet this is going to be costly this is also going to cause a lot of um delays and problems within the functioning of the state um therefore we are hesitant so in order to overcome that Andreas and myself we we established with the uh approval of the presidents of course leaders um an EU ad hoc committee to prepare the future
91:30 - 92:00 turkey Cate constituent State for the adoption and implementation of the EU Aid okay this was in anticipation of uh entirety of Cyprus to be within the European Union and that work unfortunately was stopped after um cran Montana um I believe that was a very mistake because a lot of work can be done and by engaging in that work many
92:00 - 92:30 of the prejudices one of against each other also uh is dealt with and you start creating interdependences and this culture of cooperation and working together um so and also it decreases the painful period and facilitates a more rapid adoption and implementation so there is a lot of benefit of of um putting that work up front right now in anticipation of of a solution so yes
92:30 - 93:00 there will be a problem as I said yes no it's not a problem it's a challenge challenge it's a challenge and and you know uh for me personally one of my major if you like uh points was that I'm against any permanent derogations and permanent derogations would mean that you don't fully implement the a communitary in all areas
93:00 - 93:30 personally I'm against this because I don't believe that this is the idea where the European Union will help Cyprus however we all understand that we will need transitional Arrangements in order for the turkey cot community and the future turkey C Comm constituent state to catch up and then of course we're going to do all these arrangements and the more we do as from now or still
93:30 - 94:00 was doing things like that unilaterally which is good whatever is done in order to prepare is most welcome anyway I'm not I'm not worried I'm Not Afraid this is something that will happen like we did 2004 2004 well you know ourselves of course of course and and um you know and
94:00 - 94:30 because we're going to be together the commun one will help the other to catch up faster stuff so it will be uh but uh just going back to government's one uh question that I started having so we have the two communities what about the people for example the mayor of CI so we're going each City will elect their local authorities yes local authorities and you said about police so we're going to have different police or one police under the federal police will be Federal
94:30 - 95:00 that will that is going to be joined from both and the constituent State Police will be constituent State Police so we're going to have different police in each you this you have everywhere in the world everywhere in the world even here in cyp now we have alpal police okay you know it's this is not this is not a real real problem no I was just as curious to see okay so we talked a bit about the European Union so we talked about
95:00 - 95:30 territory we talk about property we talked about governments we talk about EU matters what else are two things security guarantees and economy the economy I don't know if there is much we can say in economy there was very good cooperation at the level of the working group and uh I mean sorting issues one after the other you know yeah yeah and the main issue under economy was first um after a solution how do we make sure that there is economic
95:30 - 96:00 convergence between the both sides we don't want one side to be permanently more um Rich than the other one um so there were mechanisms because it will be dysfunctional if yes it creates social tension as well um so there were um mechanisms to make sure the federal funds would be allocated in order to facilitate the grow up until a certain period of course not forever in the so it was going to be allocated a bit more to the turkey Community to catch up to a
96:00 - 96:30 lot more a lot more you know we agreed because we are a lot richer on average we agreed that uh from the federal budget there will be an allocation uh five times higher for the tur community in terms of development going to the tech to to to De development issues or in the in all sectors for 12 years was idea
96:30 - 97:00 but there was a cut off perod you know it was not forever in order in order to cut up in order to ensure converence which we believe also they should cat up of course of course we're not talking about the whole then we're going to be together that's the interesting thing we're not separate and trying to be win each other we want each other to be prosperous because have same goals exactly exactly and and uh and then the elephant in the room is security wait a bit on
97:00 - 97:30 the economy so that was the economy to equalize uh the that was one of thing then you know like what how about um if there are natural resources and we discover something and the federal government gets how do we um deal with that what portion remains with the federal government what portion goes gas we found a lot of gas in our area so it was about that as well how do we allocate this yes yes so there were
97:30 - 98:00 formulas by the um economy Express uh that said okay this much of it will remain with the federal government but the federal government cannot keep it all then the certain amount will have to go to the constituent States and by memory remember all the how much and ratios and what kind of it was like one single um percentage it was a formula that that created based on the
98:00 - 98:30 economic development and the needs of each side what have you this was meant to help for the development if you like in and the convergence but uh the fundamental principle was that natural resources are federal so and then the Federation allocates to the constituent States taking into account what I was mentioning ear clear the idea of ensuring convergence in the course of 12 Years so it would work you know in a as
98:30 - 99:00 as a stimulus for the economic convergence of the country and another issue if we're in the economics you have the Turkish leader so it was going to go it was going to be Euro Euro of course but it was going to be a transitional period right or immediately a short a short transitional period period how many years you think no no no no the the Euro will be used from day one for the transition would be
99:00 - 99:30 for the with complete withdrawal of the Turkish l so there will not I mean the use of the Euro will not start years after the solution use of the Euro will start yes we would have a one Central Bank that was another issue under economy for a transitional period it would have a branch in the north as well because we have a different banking system that uses Turkish L for its balance sheets income statements um
99:30 - 100:00 inspection purposes so there are technical issues so you would need some um transition but after that we would be like a normal regular EU member State country okay and now we're going to the elephant in the room as M bran is called it Securities and guarantees yes well on security guarantees basically of course it's not only about 312 guarantee
100:00 - 100:30 or 32 Alliance you know um we were talking about the overall security of U Cyprus but of course most people what they understand is what will happen to Turkish troops and right of intervention so on and so forth on that um turkey side already um I mean all sides have said okay okay there is there will be rapid withal of troops um we did not establish a calendar but it was going to
100:30 - 101:00 be rapid the initial stages would be accelerated and then slowing down and it would have a cut off date now at that cut off date whether some troops would remain under some format or not was going to be decided if we had managed to call the leaders of Turkey Greece and UK which at we couldn't go to that stage um um but we ALS we we knew two things one Secretary General said uh in GIS set
101:00 - 101:30 of ideas paragraph number six he said that the the 1960 treaty with the right of intervention is not sustainable um a new system that gives a feeling of security to both communities that involves the Garter I am paraphrasing a little bit should be created we said said yes to that idea everyone said yes to the idea the problem was um we
101:30 - 102:00 couldn't um go into the details of it we couldn't go into the final elaboration and give and take we got stuck because we were not saying um our we were not opening our final hand on security and guarantees so when Andreas says yet um that you know Turkey didn't really accept full withdrawal of troops or abolition of the guarantees he is right we accept that the concept of Secretary
102:00 - 102:30 General that something must be done to it that that something should involve um abolition of the right of intervention unilateral right of intervention and it should also involve a rapid withdrawal of troops okay so far all right uh but in order to say more we said we need to hear more on the F first five parag s and engage in a give and take uh and in our last podcast I also want to to emphasize that part looking
102:30 - 103:00 back the problem I see is the mechanism we had in cran Montana was not conducive for both sides to open their final hand and engage in this final given take we blame the Greek cypriate side for not accepting um everything we wanted on uh the first four five paragraphs they were accusing us of not opening our hand
103:00 - 103:30 further on right of intervention with throw all troops we got stuck and we didn't have a mechanism that would push us to open our hand fully and finish it there um so I think looking ahead to the Future that will be the main Challenge on how to make sure that that uh problem does not arise again yes I mean I agree 100% with h
103:30 - 104:00 still uh what I want to underline is that in 2015 when negotiations with anastasiadis and and Ain started one of the first things we agreed was that the security of the one is not at the expense of the security of the other and this is was as was still mentioned in line with this idea which was already
104:00 - 104:30 at theal se of ideas and this is where we need to find this very delicate balance how can we achieve security uh for all and how do we have a system which respects fully the fact that uh Cyprus is a sovereign state full member of the European Union and
104:30 - 105:00 eventually you can have not have any Third Country having right to interfere with with its Internal Affairs it's complicated it's difficult to transition to this system but really I honestly believe this is possible and feasible but how do I achieve security actually there will be lots of elements
105:00 - 105:30 I mean everything we do to have a well functioning country within the European Union contributes to security actually build we talked about building interdependence a cultural cooperation you know confronting the challenges of the world together surviving in this region uh together okay um so all these things are elements of uh our educ ation system how we teach our children how do we motivate our businesses to establish
105:30 - 106:00 Partnerships so today in Europe after two world wars you know well it's inconceivable that they go to war how did they manage we take it but of course these things take time in the meantime there will be more classical um methodologies engag and um after a period there would be a review now whether uh what happens at that review what not should be discussed by politicians by military experts by
106:00 - 106:30 Security Experts um the problem was um how do we move to that final stage and enable a very openhearted Frank debate on this and on the remaining aspects of the gutterz framework then you're talking about the 5% now yes ex yes but this is the 5% but as still was saying the most fundamental thing when you talk about security you need to bear in mind
106:30 - 107:00 as again still mentioned earlier about how the European Union started you create the organic conditions for peace through all those sectors through education through pulling things together this was the fundamental idea of the European community for steel and coal we pull together here to if you start creating those organic
107:00 - 107:30 conditions it means that not only between the communities in Cyprus but between Cyprus and turkey between Cyprus and Greece and everybody there will be no reasons to have wars or to have violence you are going to have reason competition of of course competition in the economic field in the cultural field wherever but not you replace the bullets
107:30 - 108:00 by arguments and by competition and it is really possible and this is our idea let's create those organic conditions for peace and cooperation and prosperity in the Mediterranean we kind of want to remove turkey and Greece to have the right to intervene and yes this is this is at the end of the day it's necessary we cannot have having guarantors having the right UK as well
108:00 - 108:30 to not not to have interest they have the right to be interested not to have the right to intervene militarily more so but to intervene in general in our Internal Affairs but you need to create the conditions for this so can you give me a brief explanation of what so the guarant Securities and guaranteeing was one of the things that was in the 5% like remove completely the military from
108:30 - 109:00 the turky what are other things that was in the 5% that was 5% is the G set of ideas those six paragraphs by I mean by and large those are the things if you read those one six paragraphs you get a very good idea what are the main remaining that's what Secretary General called main remaining outstanding issues so if if that's uh settled in a spirit of given can you describe me a bit what that yes paragraph number one was regarding um uh
109:00 - 109:30 governance andow sharing um this rotating presidency and uh that it was important for you yes of course it's a rotating presidency and this one positive vote you know one positive vote means you know we will have a federal public administration and uh in some areas you would have to have at least one Turkish cypriate public civil servant to say yes uh one not I shouldn't say one turkey
109:30 - 110:00 one from each Community to say yes in order for that decision to be um adopted or implemented um you can't have um government institutions only run by one um Community um and not by the other uh so this one positive vote was to ensure um this effective participation in all the organizations of the government so again this is a little bit
110:00 - 110:30 complicated it is not as straightforward as saying one positive vote in every um level and every institution no um there were institutions with only one person so what do you but it was a general idea that some of its details most of its details was figure out but in some areas there was still some discussion that needed to take place so that was paragraph number one mainly one
110:30 - 111:00 positive vote rotating presidency the remaining aspects of this and item number two was equivalent treatment of EU Turkish Nationals we mentioned it the third one was um under the property chapter this emotional attachment uh issue issue um we wanted the emotional attachment um criteria to be taken into consideration uh for areas under
111:00 - 111:30 territorial adjustment so if we are going to give back the territory but the turkey C wants to remain there and he claims an emotional attachment we wanted that and the Greek C side was saying no if a territory is going to be given back um you know the Greek ziats basically should have the final say so there was that thing um uh the there are a few very few things territory was need to
111:30 - 112:00 see which which parts are going to be under Greek super Administration you know nothing fundamental nothing F but so I mean bridgeable differences bridgeable differences uh but you know details very often are more difficult than the principle you know so is this spirit and it's the political will if it is there all the remaining uh issues could have been uh resolved in
112:00 - 112:30 cran Montana uh that day uh but as the Secretary General said we hit a block because the political will necessary was lacking so that's what we should focus on uh from now on I believe and now we're talking about a referendum we want to do in both communi a referendum to accept this solution is not that what necessary this is not necessarily what we want you know it's there is now for
112:30 - 113:00 the last uh 20 years there is this idea on the table are we going to get rid of it and say no we're not going to a referendum I don't think that this is wise to question the idea of referendum the difference is that in 2004 there was a refer there were referenda the leadership at the time was not in favor of the result of the arbitration
113:00 - 113:30 by the United Nations in 2017 it was clear that only an agreed solution would go to referenda so the leadership had to agree on the settlement and this settlement would go to separate referenda personally I'm really confident that if you have the leadership and the negotiating teams agreeing it will go through without any
113:30 - 114:00 problem um I agree uh but uh I am afraid that we will never um get there so I what I propose uh if when it happens is to put a a de deadline to these ongoing talks why do I feel confident that this can fly because we have already established a lot as we have been trying to explain we are not in 2004 it's not the period
114:00 - 114:30 of unplaned where there were lots of gaps and that had to be filled by the United Nations no it's almost there so I'm not afraid to say allow ourselves a time limit and um engage if if there are still some outstanding details um s of a thatl resolving mechanism more arbitration so that we can finalize it I don't want the new attempt to go on for decades because
114:30 - 115:00 of one excuse or another or because of one influence or another or some interested uh parties I don't even know who those might be so once we push the uh button we should commit to finish it by a certain time I believe when we do that it will in our interest to help each other instead of relying on an arbitrator to finalize everything but we
115:00 - 115:30 should have that insurance of an arbitrator if we still fail to wrap it up then the arbitration mechanism not a single person but probably a mechanism um should um finalize the thing and we tell people and this time um there must be some kind of a consequence quence on the part that says no uh and I believe this is what we should leaders should be talking about now how do we Design This
115:30 - 116:00 what kind of a time limit is reasonable what kind of an arbitration mechanism makes sense and what kind of uh consequence uh would be uh just uh to tell people that if you reject what has been put on in front of you by your leaders supported by the leaders as a result of almost 60 years of negotiation if you reject this then um what do you think no we this is a point of this
116:00 - 116:30 agreement as and you know I don't want to talk about the divorce the terms of divorce this is a point of disagreement but I mean at the same time you know uh otil is absolutely right that uh we might have only one more goal one more attempt and we need to do whatever we can in order to make it happen to finalize it h but my fear if you like is that we need to to make us so sure
116:30 - 117:00 that there is no failure because as NASA says as you know in the United States failure is not an option because if we fail I don't want to think I have by the way it's enough I think wait wait we cover most of it I want
117:00 - 117:30 some comments more relaxing conversation now so these two guys guys both cried in 2017 when the the conversation stopped so it's very emotional uh topic and they spend their a lot of their part of their life and their energy to do this which I admire uh but I was just talking with my teacher yesterday were in the plane coming from brazils teacher of uh my teacher is um physics he was the teach
117:30 - 118:00 and now we're working together in the European Parliament and we were saying what if this stuff never happened before we were with good with the Turkish suor Community we never fought with turkey and it was our rival and our enemy and we had both Greece supporting us and both turkey supporting us the close power to us what if we're going to be using both the Turkish Superior Community to get stuff from Turkey as well and be cool so I was it was like a
118:00 - 118:30 good feeling and like we did this to us and we limit ourselves and our potential with all the stuff it's interesting but you're absolutely right they would be fantastic it would be fantastic yeah and imagine the potential of this place not only for us also by its implication for the region it would be imagine you know it's and and and not only if you like in terms of
118:30 - 119:00 you know economic interest but imagine that you have people that get along very well so that what unites us it's much much stronger than what divides us and not only between the communities in Cyprus between the people in Cyprus in Greece in Turkey in the broader Middle East area you know we we we are we are people that can be beacons of Hope For
119:00 - 119:30 Humanity okay last question before we go how was the EO after the previous meeting that we did the live event did you had good comments what was the I think so the following day we participated in this model un meeting there were many people from both communities and they were coming and talking to us congratulating telling us how much they benefited from following
119:30 - 120:00 the debate and later on from other circles as well that people appreciated uh that we were you know trying to explain and what happened so I got positive feedback I don't know me too I got a lot of positive feedback but there was one which was quite emotional it was several weeks after I met a young man who told me the following you know it's the first time
120:00 - 120:30 that my generation is not excluded for us this was something very remote negotiations and talking we we were we were feeling that it was having nothing to do with our lives when I followed he said this podcast I mean this meeting and and uh through internet for the first time in my life I felt that I was included first
120:30 - 121:00 time in my life and then I also understood and appreciated what you have done in terms of personal commitment and how tough and difficult it was I was really moved a young guy was telling me you know I appreciate what you have done this effort you provided it was the first time I he this in my life it was very
121:00 - 121:30 beautiful my mother was saying I admired that they were not fighting they were waiting for the one to finish and the other to start they were respecting each other and all this and I got Hope from this and people because this happens in the TV and all this stuff but now people consume information in a different way and the younger and all this stuff so you can get all the ages of so yeah it was amazing and yeah I thank you for doing that and thank you for doing this
121:30 - 122:00 as well it's very important to continue this conversation and try because transparency I think will bring more uh trust and ultimately uh more positive uh to this direction that we want to go I love you guys I love you people for watching and for the international audience this was probably very interesting as well to see how a small island is trying to uh fix its
122:00 - 122:30 longlasting problem thank you peace and love