Euthyphro Part 1

Summary

In this intriguing dialogue penned by Plato, Socrates and Euthyphro delve into the philosophical quandaries surrounding justice and piety. Set in front of a courthouse, Euthyphro is prosecuting his own father for murder, a decision Socrates finds curious. Through their exchange, they explore the definitions and implications of piety, focusing on whether moral actions align with the gods' views. The discourse reveals the complexity of discerning moral truths, pushing the audience to ponder the relationship between divine approval and ethical behavior. As they unravel these themes, the discussion raises enduring questions about justice and morality that challenge the listener to think deeply about what constitutes true righteousness.

Highlights

• Euthyphro shockingly pursues legal action against his father, sparking a robust discussion on familial duty and justice. 😲
• Socrates, ever the philosopher, questions Euthyphro's understanding of piety, pushing for a clearer, universal definition. 🤓
• The gods are depicted having disagreements, leading to the realization that what's 'dear to the gods' is not universally agreed upon. 🌩️
• Euthyphro argues that moral actions should be pursued regardless of personal ties, challenging traditional familial loyalty. 🙌
• The dialogue touches upon the timeless debate of subjective versus objective morality, inviting readers to dive deep. 🌊

Key Takeaways

• Piety and morality are not as straightforward as they seem, especially if the gods themselves have differing opinions. 🤔
• The dilemma of prosecuting a family member challenges societal norms and pushes us to question our own moral compass. ⚖️
• Socrates' pursuit of a solid definition of piety underscores the importance of clear ethical guidelines. 📜
• The text prompts readers to consider whether moral truths are subjective or universal, sparking timeless philosophical debates. 🔍
• Euthyphro presents a unique family drama intertwined with deeper philosophical exploration, making us reflect on our values. 🎭

Overview

The dialogue begins in a vibrant setting outside a courthouse, where Socrates encounters Euthyphro. Euthyphro, in a surprising turn of events, is there to prosecute his own father for murder. This shocking situation sets the stage for a deeper discussion about justice and moral obligation, as Socrates intrigues to understand Euthyphro's reasoning.

Through their dynamic conversation, Socrates questions Euthyphro's definition of piety, which he initially claims is 'what he is doing.' Seeking a more precise understanding, Socrates highlights the contradictions that arise when piety is simply what’s dear to the gods, given that even gods can disagree. This leads to a philosophical tug-of-war about what truly constitutes a pious action.

As their debate unfolds, the dialogue challenges listeners to reflect on ethical standards and the nature of morality. By dissecting Euthyphro's family drama within the broader philosophical context, the discussion transcends its ancient setting, encouraging continuous contemplation about the essence of righteousness and whether moral truths remain constant or are eternally subject to interpretation.

Chapters

• 00:00 - 05:30: Introduction to Euthyphro and the Obedience to the Gods The chapter introduces the dialogue 'Euthyphro' by Plato, where Socrates engages in conversation with Euthyphro. They meet outside a courthouse and start a discussion to pass the time. The text provided is part of a translated work by Benjamin Jowett.
• 05:31 - 09:00: Euthyphro's Dilemma: Family vs Justice Euthyphro is engaged in a conversation with Socrates, where they both question why they are present at the same location. Euthyphro explains that he is the 'pursuer' or prosecutor in a legal sense. Socrates is intrigued and asks Euthyphro who the fugitive or accused is. Euthyphro reveals that he is prosecuting his own father, much to the surprise of Socrates. This introduction sets up a central theme of the chapter, where familial duty and justice are in conflict.
• 09:01 - 13:00: The Nature of Piety and Impiety The chapter begins with a prosecutorial action where someone, presumably Euthyphro, is prosecuting his own father. Socrates inquires about the person being prosecuted and learns that it is indeed Euthyphro's father. The dialogue suggests a familial conflict where the father is accused of murdering a relative, setting up a discussion on the nature of piety and impiety in relation to family and morality.
• 13:01 - 19:00: Socrates Seeks a Definition of Piety Socrates discusses the importance of defining piety, emphasizing the unusual nature of prosecuting a family member without a clear definition of such a significant concept. He challenges the conventional understanding and societal norms regarding familial obligations and justice.
• 19:01 - 27:00: The Gods and Moral Disputes In the chapter titled 'The Gods and Moral Disputes,' the discussion revolves around Socrates' initial response to a moral dilemma. He suggests that if one's father commits a wrongdoing, intervention might not be necessary unless the act affects another family member. Socrates seems to be indicating that familial loyalty could play a role in the decision to take action. The chapter continues with references to Euthyphro, hinting at a philosophical debate or inquiry that may further explore these ethical considerations.
• 27:01 - 36:30: A Flawed Definition of Piety This chapter discusses the flawed definition of piety, focusing on the distinction between relationships and justice. It explores the concept of whether associating with a murderer, knowingly or unknowingly, affects one's piety. The discussion suggests that the key issue is not the relationship with the murderer but whether the act was just or unjust. If the murder was just, one should not intervene, but if unjust, one must proceed against the murderer, regardless of personal connections. This argument is presented from Euthyphro's perspective, emphasizing duty over personal relations.
• 36:31 - 46:00: The Implications of Inconsistent Beliefs The chapter explores the ethical dilemma of dealing with family members who commit wrongdoing, using a hypothetical scenario involving a murderer potentially being a relative.
• 46:01 - 48:00: Conclusion and the Quest for a Solid Definition of Piety In this chapter, the discussion revolves around the concept of doing what is right, even in difficult situations. The main example used is a character named Euthyphro, whose name proves to be hard to spell. Despite this minor distraction, the focus is on the moral obligation to 'do the right thing,' suggesting themes of ethical responsibility and the challenges of defining what is truly right. The chapter hints at the broader quest for understanding and defining piety, as reflected in the difficulties and importance of making just decisions.

Euthyphro Part 1 Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 this book's called the euthyphro and it's written by plato plato's recording a dialogue between his teacher socrates and this character euthyphro the translation is by benjamin joett the book was written a long long time ago in greek and so benjamin joette translated it from the greek to the english all right let's dive into the story so it begins with socrates kind of saying hey and what's your suit euthyphro are you the pursuer or the defendant they're basically both in front of a courthouse they're hanging out trying to kill some time and they just strike up a conversation socrates
• 00:30 - 01:00 like hey what are you in here for you the fro and you was like what are you in here for socrates so there's the there's the start euthyphro says i am the pursuer socrates of whom euthyphro you will think me mad when i tell you socrates why has the fugitive wings you throw name he's not very volatile at his time of life socrates who is he euthyphro my father so for the opening scene we find out that euthyphro is the pursuer which means that euthyphro
• 01:00 - 01:30 is prosecuting somebody and socrates wants to know who are you prosecuting and we get at the very end of that he is prosecuting his father so youth froze prosecuting his father all right let's move on and see what happens next socrates i suppose that the man whom your father murdered was one of your relatives clearly he was for if he had been a
• 01:30 - 02:00 stranger you would never have thought of prosecuting him so socrates point here is that um look you don't prosecute family socrates you don't prosecute family unless it was another family member
• 02:00 - 02:30 so um that socrates initial reply is like hey you know if your dad did something bad you leave him alone unless he went after another family member and then you know maybe you got to do something about it all right let's continue you the fro i'm amuse socrates that you're making a
• 02:30 - 03:00 distinction between one who is a relation and one who is not a relation for surely the pollution is the same in either case if you knowingly associate with the murderer when you ought to clear yourself and him by proceeding against him the real question is whether the murdered man has been justly slain if justly then your duty is to let the matter alone but if unjustly then even if the murderer lives under the same roof with you and eats at the same table proceed against him so euthyphro says hey look
• 03:00 - 03:30 it doesn't matter who the murderer is be it my father or be it some stranger if he did something wrong you got to go after him if he didn't do anything wrong then let it go but it doesn't matter if he's family or not which is going against what socrates had just said a second ago and so that raises a question right should you when you're thinking about family members like if they do something wrong wrong you catch them you know breaking the law or something do you do you say well that's my family i'm going to let it go or do you say nope
• 03:30 - 04:00 sorry what's right is right and i got it i got to do the right thing and you know turn you in or something like that um euthyphro here let me write this down really quick uth h e-u-t-h-y-p-h o i cannot spell and this word is just gonna kill me every time okay so euthyphro it doesn't matter matter who
• 04:00 - 04:30 the killer is um if he did wrong i gotta turn i gotta go after him i'm trying to think like you know at what point you know enough you know if i if i knew of a
• 04:30 - 05:00 family member committing a crime at what point would i say all right i got to turn you in um i don't know that's a tough one all right let me keep moving forward now so this is euthyphro still um talking this is where he kind of lays out this is this is the this is what happened so now the man who is dead was a poor dependent of mine who worked for us as a field laborer on our farm in naxos in one day in a fit of drunken passion he got into a quarrel with one of our domestic servants and slew him my father bound him hand and foot and
• 05:00 - 05:30 threw him in a ditch actually let me back up so this is kind of step one there's a few steps in this so um so there was a poor dependent of mine worked as a field laborer in one day in a bit of drunken passion he got in a quarrel with one of our domestic servants and slew him so a um a dependent of euthyphro's euthyphro's
• 05:30 - 06:00 a dependent of euthyphro killed a a domestic servant it's unclear to me the difference between um what it what this means when you're calling one person a dependent and the other person a domestic servant i don't think
• 06:00 - 06:30 when we say dependent here i don't think it's meaning like a child because it's a poor dependent of mine who worked for us as a field laborer so it's a worker but he's a dependent so i'm not sure what that difference is between the dependent domestic servant but for whatever reason there's some distinction there but one person killed another okay then step two my father so let's go step one here step two my father bound him hand and foot and threw him into a ditch and then sent uh to athens to ask of a diviner what he should do with him
• 06:30 - 07:00 so the dad let's see dad to dad through which one so the dependent killed the servant so the dad threw him that's going to be this dependent into a ditch and then
• 07:00 - 07:30 went to like a religious figure a diviner to um find out what to do so the dad's like i gotta deal with this i don't know what to do i'm gonna throw this guy in a ditch will i go figure out from you know the religious powers that be how to handle this
• 07:30 - 08:00 meanwhile he never attended to him and took no care about him for regard him as a murderer and thought that no great harm would it be done to him even if he did now this was just what happened for such was the effect of cold and hunger and chains upon him that before the messenger returned from the diviner he was dead oh okay so the dad just kind of leaves him in the ditch while the person's out trying to find out from the religious figure what to do while he's gone the dependent
• 08:00 - 08:30 dies he dies in the ditch so he is again this dependent person the first killer okay and my father and family are angry with me for taking the part of a murderer and prosecuting my father they say that he did not kill him and that if he did the dead man was but a murderer and i
• 08:30 - 09:00 ought not to take any notice for that a son is in pious who prosecutes the father which shows socrates how little they know what the gods think about piety and impiety okay so there's a couple things going on here euthyphro is going after his father for killing that dependent so at the end of the day now euthyphro is going after father or after his dad for
• 09:00 - 09:30 killing him and by him again we mean the dependent okay so euthyphro is going after his dad for killing him the dependent the family including his father says he is wrong by he we mean euthyphro is wrong
• 09:30 - 10:00 so the family says euthyphro is wrong why is he wrong one i think i saw two in here so let's see my father and family are angry with me for taking the part of the murderer and prosecuting my father they say that he did not kill him so that's question one like is his father responsible for killing the person he left him in the ditch like are we gonna call it murder or are we gonna call it something else
• 10:00 - 10:30 um he didn't i don't think he was sitting there saying i want this person to die but he was negligent of the person in a sense he kind of was just like holding him for a while until he could figure out what to do but while he was holding him he didn't look after his well-being and the person ended up dying in his care so does that count as murder or does that count as like maybe involuntary manslaughter or something where like you know it was an accident or something like that what are we going to call this and then the second thing was that if he did so even if he did kill
• 10:30 - 11:00 him like he was a murderer the dead man was better murderer and i ought not to take any uh notice for that a son is in pious who prosecutes a father so even if he did kill him and it was like we're going to call it murder shouldn't do anything about it anyways because you know it's it's youth froze dad so leave him alone all right so if family says he is wrong one because it wasn't murder in the first place
• 11:00 - 11:30 and two even if it was still shouldn't go after your dad the final thing to note here is this
• 11:30 - 12:00 last sentence where euthyphro says which shows socrates how little they know what the gods think about piety and in piety so they're saying it's impious for euthyphro to go after his father and youth are saying they don't know what piety and impiety is so even if it was even if it was you still shouldn't go after your dad that would be and we'll go in parentheses here that would be in pious
• 12:00 - 12:30 and euthyphro says this is nonsense they have no idea what it means to say something is in pious so we'll go euthyphro says they have no idea what i'm just going to say what piety is
• 12:30 - 13:00 when we use the word piety the phrase i like to substitute for piety is like the religiously right thing to do so they have no idea what the religiously right thing to do and that's what this uh story is going to be about is piety and the question of what is the religiously right thing to do okay let's go ahead and move on so socrates says and what is piety and what is impiety this is going to be the theme of the book so let's go ahead and just note that really quick so socrates he wants to know
• 13:00 - 13:30 what is piety all right let's see what euthyphro says piety is doing what i am doing that is to say prosecuting anyone who is guilty of murder sacrilege or of any similar crime whether he be your father or mother or whoever he may be that makes no difference and not to prosecute them is impiety and please to consider socrates what a notable proof i will give you of the truth of my words
• 13:30 - 14:00 a proof which i have already given to others let me stop right here so this first part he's saying this is what it is and then it sounds like the second part is going to kind of prove that that's the case so piety is doing what i'm doing going after guilty people so euthyphro piety equals going after guilty people
• 14:00 - 14:30 okay so piety's going after guilty people and now here's the proof he says um where are we at right here okay of the principle i mean that the empious whoever he may be ought not to go unpunished for do not men regard zeus as the best and the most righteous of the gods and yet they admit that he bound his father chronos because he wickedly devoured his sons and that he too had punished his own
• 14:30 - 15:00 father uranus for a similar reason in a nameless manner and yet when i proceed against my father they are angry with me so inconsistent are they in their way of talking when the gods are concerned and when i am concerned okay so here youth was basically saying and everybody who's against me is a hypocrite so here's the move let's see piety is going after guilty people and everybody me
• 15:00 - 15:30 is a hypocrite h-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e hypocrite that looks right so everyone against me is a hypocrite why are they a hypocrite so for do not men regard zeus is the best and the most uh righteous of the god so people love zeus so here's why step one everybody loves zeus
• 15:30 - 16:00 but zeus went after his dad kronos for doing wrong for doing wrong so everybody loves zeus but zeus went
• 16:00 - 16:30 after his dad cronus for doing wrong now everybody hates me for going after my dad and that's the hypocrisy move right you you totally think this god is amazing for going after his dad or who does go after his dad yet when i go after my dad you're saying i'm a bad guy so that that's a little inconsistency there and you throw a little bit ticked about that so everybody loves zeus but everybody hates hates euthyphro
• 16:30 - 17:00 for doing the same thing all right let's move forward and see what happens next but just at present i would rather hear from you a more precise answer which you have not as yet given my friend to the question what is piety when asked do you only reply doing as you do charging your father with murder so socrates is like come on dude that's not a real definition so socrates give
• 17:00 - 17:30 me a sorry to say give me a definition so socrates give me a definition all right euthyphro and what i said was true socrates no doubt euthyphro but you would admit that there are many other pious acts either for there are socrates remember that i did not ask you to give me two or three examples of piety but to explain the general idea which makes all pious things to be pious do you not recollect that there was one
• 17:30 - 18:00 idea which made the impious in pious and the pious pious youthful remember yeah so sargeras is saying give me a definition and the problem is is that if you're if you're buying what euthyphro said earlier he's just giving an example of something that is pious but he's not giving like the full definition of what it means so give me a definition not examples yeah so if i said you know what's a car a definition would maybe be like a
• 18:00 - 18:30 four-wheeled vehicle that uses some type of propulsion with doors and seats to transport people from one place to another i mean that may be a bad definition but it's an attempted definition of what is a car as opposed to somebody says matthew what's a car and i said well a honda is a car like that's an example of a car that's not a definition of a car so it looks like socrates is looking for a definition euthyphro initially gives the example of well pius is doing what i'm doing that's an example not a definition let's keep going socrates tell me what is the nature of
• 18:30 - 19:00 this idea and then i shall have a standard to which i may look and by which i may measure actions whether yours or those of anyone else and then i shall be able to say that such and such an action is pious such another impulse so once i have a definition this is socrates still once i have a definition i can look at
• 19:00 - 19:30 anything and know if it is pious or impious so if i see well let's switch it from car to vehicle in general so i know a vehicle you know again like four wheels or three more than one wheel i guess like no
• 19:30 - 20:00 unicycle vehicles hopefully um more than one wheel mode of transportation from getting a person or object from one place to another let's call that our definition now if i give an example i said well my honda is a vehicle and um and i just left it that now let's say you see a big old pickup truck drive by and it it's got a little bit of similarity in my honda but it doesn't look like my honda you say is that a vehicle well if you're just working with my example of the honda it's not enough to get you to say yeah
• 20:00 - 20:30 that pickup truck is a vehicle but if i go to the definition that it's got more than one wheel it's got a method of propulsion or a way of making it move and it's used for transporting people or things from one place to another now you look at that pickup truck you say yeah that fits the criteria of the definition so now i know yes that is a vehicle and that's what socrates is trying to do with pious here it's just trying to find out if i get a definition then i can look at any activity and determine whether it's pious or in pious but an example is not going to get me there so let's see
• 20:30 - 21:00 if euthyphro gives a definition euthyphro piety then is that which is dear to the gods and impiety is that which is not dear to them okay so that's very straightforward let's see what socrates thinks of this euthyphro um says piety equals dear to the gods all right let's see socrates's response socrates very good euthyphro you have now given me the sort of answer
• 21:00 - 21:30 which i wanted but whether what you say is true or not i cannot as yet tell although i make no doubt that you will prove the truth of your words i i was just chuckling when i read that accessing like all right this i can't imagine this definition working i think i think socrates already sees a problem with it let's go ahead and continue reading and see what we get so socrates says the gods were admitted to have um enmities and hatreds and differences yeah and youth phrase says yes that was also said and socrates says and what sort of difference creates enmity and anger
• 21:30 - 22:00 suppose for example that you and i my good friend differ about a number do differences of this sort make us enemies instead of say variants within one another so if we're disagreeing about number do we do we become enemies over that do we not go at once to arithmetic and put an end to them by a sum euthyphro true or suppose that we differ about magnitudes do we not quickly end the differences by measuring euthro very true and we end a controversy about heavy and light by resorting to weighing machine you throw to be true okay so um
• 22:00 - 22:30 kind of what socrates is asking basically what kinds of things do we get mad and fight over what kinds of things do we get mad and fight over um numbers
• 22:30 - 23:00 no because we can just count them so there's no room for real like disagreement on that you're just like there's two apples in this bag no there's five apples in the bag all right let's open the bag and count hey look at that there's two apples in the bag so you don't that's not like wars aren't fought over that kind of thing um people friendships aren't ruined over that same thing about um like size of stuff
• 23:00 - 23:30 like who's taller i'm taller no i'm taller pull out a tape measure and find out um no what's the other one weight yeah so weight just no because you just get a scale for that so then what kinds of things do people end friendships over what kinds of things do people fight over let's go ahead and keep reading but what differences are there which cannot be thus decided and which
• 23:30 - 24:00 therefore make us angry and set us at enmity with one another i dare say the answer does not occur to you at the moment and therefore i will suggest that these enmities arise when the matters of difference are the just and the unjust here's the stuff that people fight over let's see the just and the unjust the good and evil honorable and dishonorable are not these the points about which men differ and about which when we are unable to satisfactorily decide our differences you and i and all of us quarrel when we
• 24:00 - 24:30 do quarrel you the fro yes socrates the nature of the differences about which we quarrel is such as you describe socrates and the quarrels of the gods noble euthyphro when they occur are of like nature euthyphro certainly they are okay so people fight over this is socrates talking people fight over what um the good what's good and evil what's just and unjust
• 24:30 - 25:00 what's good and evil uh honorable and dishonorable and it's not just people that fight over this stuff so remember for the um for the greeks going back a long long time ago they had you know gods that
• 25:00 - 25:30 were at war with each other and fighting all over all kinds of stuff and so already says the gods fight over this stuff too this is the stuff so there's this like distinction between just um good and honorable
• 25:30 - 26:00 on one side and then you have like number weight and let's go size on this side we don't fight over this stuff and we do fight over the just honorable good stuff what is the reason for that distinction i don't know
• 26:00 - 26:30 let's keep working socrates then the same things are hated by the gods and loved by the gods and are both hateful and dear to them so if we remember the first definition was pious equals dear to the gods this was our first definition we went through now where we've come to now is saying well because the gods fight so this is socrates now but the gods
• 26:30 - 27:00 fight one thing is dear to one god and not dear to another god so i mean let's take the example of the
• 27:00 - 27:30 story zeus prosecuting his dad is dear to zeus but if you ask chronos like hey kronos is that was zeus going after you a good thing cronus would be like no absolutely not so that one act of prosecuting kronos is dear to zeus but not dear to chronos and the final step here is to say that because of that if you look at your definition that it's dear to the gods then the same thing is going to be pious and in pious so the same thing
• 27:30 - 28:00 will be both pious and impious at the same time in we this is a contradiction so there's the you don't want a contradiction in your definition just so to say it's both pious and it's not pious at the same
• 28:00 - 28:30 time that seems like an odd thing to say and so this definition fails hopefully we've got a new definition we can work with let's keep going forward and see what happens the euthyphro says but i believe socrates that all the gods would be agreed as to the propriety of punishing a murderer there would be no difference of opinion about that so euthyphro here is saying all the gods would agree
• 28:30 - 29:00 that the wrongdoer should be punished or the murderer in this case should be punished now let's look at socrates's reply to that well but speaking of men euthyphro did you ever hear anyone arguing that a murderer or any sort of evil doer ought to be let off they back and forth on this bit socrates wraps it up with there are some things
• 29:00 - 29:30 which they do not venture to say and do for they do not venture to argue that the guilty are to be unpunished but they deny their guilt do they not yes so socrates finishes then they do not argue that the evil-doers should not be punished but they argue about the fact of who the evil doer is and what he did and when he the process true so here's socrates's reply to this so up top is euthyphro every all the gods would agree that the wrongdoer should be punished socrates says um yeah that's fine that everybody to
• 29:30 - 30:00 greet the wrongdoer should be punished but nobody agrees on who the wrongdoer is so you have um take like a political example uh you know republicans and democrats in the u.s they would if you talk to any of them they probably both agree that
• 30:00 - 30:30 um the the party with the weakest platform should lose the election but then if you talk to a democrat about who's got the weakest platform the democrats going to say oh it's the republican if you talk to a republican about who's got the weakest platform the republicans can say what's the democrat so they both agree that the weakest platform should lose the election but what they don't agree on is who has the weakest platform now you go up to wrongdoing and everybody's gonna agree yeah the person who's in the wrong should be punished but then you say okay who's in the wrong here that's when people are gonna start fighting and socrates says and the same
• 30:30 - 31:00 thing goes for the gods the gods fight over who's the wrong doer to stay with the example in the book we have zeus would look at kronos and say kronos is totally in the wrong he needs to be punished and then kronos would look at zeus and say no zeus is totally in the wrong he needs to be punished and then if you talk to youth of rose family they're going to say euthyphro's in the wrong for prosecuting his dad ether is going to say no i'm in the right for prosecuting my dad and so you're left in this big pickle of like how do you assess who's in the right and who's in the wrong well this is what socrates i think
• 31:00 - 31:30 is trying to get at it if you get a strong definition of what is pious you can apply that definition to any of these situations you're trying to wrestle with and say yes this is the pious thing to do or if you want to set the religious element aside then it's just a question of the definition of the moral and so this is a moral action this is an immoral action but you need to have a firm definition so that when you plug in these examples you can then say yeah that's a pious thing or yeah that's a moral thing okay so this is the puzzle we're left
• 31:30 - 32:00 with is socrates is still trying to sort out we need a good solid definition if we're really going to answer these questions in a meaningful way i think this is a good place to leave it so we'll stop here in the next lesson i'll go ahead and start with a summary of some of the key points of this and then we'll dive into the second part of this book all right take care everybody bye