HPI 11 - Carry a Big Stick - Ancient Indian Political Thought

Summary

In this episode on ancient Indian political thought, the focus is on the Arthashastra, a treatise on statecraft attributed to Kautilya, chief minister under Chandragupta Maurya. The discussion covers its pragmatic and sometimes ruthless approaches to politics, drawing parallels to Machiavellian ideas. The Arthashastra's influence on Indian political and philosophical history is noted, especially in its pragmatic views on governance compared to traditional moralistic perspectives. The episode also touches on the political legacy of Ashoka, Chandragupta's grandson, who shifted from violent conquest to promoting dharma after converting to Buddhism.

Highlights

• The Arthashastra is a key source of ancient Indian political thought. 📚
• Kautilya's work combines philosophy with practical governance, hinting at Machiavellian strategies. 🎭
• Ashoka's transformation from a ruthless conqueror to a promoter of peace and dharma is legendary. 🌱
• The Maurya Empire was built and expanded through conquest but eventually embraced moral leadership. 🚀
• Ashoka's edicts reflect his attempt to govern through ethical means rather than force. 📜

Key Takeaways

• The Arthashastra offers a comprehensive look at ancient Indian political thought, blending pragmatic governance with philosophical elements. 🏺
• Kautilya, the supposed author, uses both moral and pragmatic approaches, similar to Machiavellian tactics. 📜
• Chandragupta, the Maurya dynasty's founder, followed Kautilya's teachings, establishing a powerful empire through conquest. ⚔️
• Ashoka, Chandragupta's grandson, is famed for shifting from cruelty to moral governance after embracing Buddhism. ✌️
• Ashoka's edicts demonstrate an early form of moral statecraft, promoting dharma above sectarian divisions. 🕉️

Overview

Dive into the world of ancient Indian political thought as our hosts unpack the Arthashastra, a seminal text attributed to Kautilya, the strategic mind behind Chandragupta Maurya's rise. This treatise isn't just a manual for rulers but offers a rich tapestry of philosophical and pragmatic insights into governance, blending ruthless efficiency with ethical considerations.

Exploring further, we find Kautilya's Arthashastra adopting a style that parallels Machiavellian concepts. His mix of strict legalistic advice alongside moral strategies paints a complex picture of how ancient rulers like Chandragupta managed to sustain a powerful empire through cunning and strategy. Kautilya's thoughts present an interplay of morality and pragmatism that still resonates with political philosophers today.

Then there’s Ashoka, Chandragupta's grandson, whose reign marks a profound shift. Originally known for his cruel reign, Ashoka's conversion to Buddhism sparked a new era of moral governance. His edicts, carved in stone across the empire, reveal an innovative approach to leadership, focusing on dharma and ethical rule rather than fear and compulsion. This transformation highlights the enduring impact of philosophical ideas on political practices.

Chapters

• 00:00 - 00:30: Introduction to the Podcast The chapter introduces the podcast "History of Philosophy in India" by Janardan Gennari and Peter Adamson, who are supported by King's College London's philosophy department and LMU in Munich. The podcast focuses on exploring the history of philosophy within the Indian context and is available online.
• 00:30 - 01:00: Ancient Indian Life Imagined Today's episode explores ancient Indian political thought and encourages listeners to imagine their life in ancient India. Based on discussions from previous podcast episodes, listeners might envision themselves as a well-educated Brahmin, knowledgeable in the Vedas and rituals, a noble Kshatriya warrior, or possibly as a Buddhist monk.
• 01:00 - 02:00: The Arthashastra's Insight into Ancient Indian Society This chapter delves into the Arthashastra's role in providing insights into ancient Indian society. It contrasts the sparse information available from religious texts like the Upanishads and the Pali Canon against the Arthashastra's detailed accounts, particularly focusing on the everyday lives of regular people such as farmers and cowherds, as well as ascetics from the Jaina and Ajivika schools. The Arthashastra is highlighted as a crucial resource for understanding the nuanced and practical aspects of daily governance and social regulations in ancient India.
• 02:00 - 03:00: Philosophical Significance of the Arthashastra The chapter discusses the underlying philosophical implications and significance of the Arthashastra in shaping the lives of ancient Indians across all social strata, from royalty to slaves and religious ascetics. It also touches upon specific details related to the dairy industry, such as the use of bells on cows for easy location, threats from predators like crocodiles and tigers, the comparison of buffalo and cow milk in butter production, and practices of cattle herding during different seasons.
• 03:00 - 04:00: Purpose and Content of the Arthashastra The chapter titled "Purpose and Content of the Arthashastra" delves into the significance of the Arthashastra, which provides clarity on various topics beyond just milk and butter. It highlights the essence of classical thought on warfare, law, gender relations, slavery, and economics, making it a valuable resource for understanding the political context of Indian philosophy. The text is rich with information regarding the four classes of society and depicts the attitudes of kings towards their subjects and rival kings, offering a comprehensive understanding of the time.
• 04:00 - 05:00: Authorship and Historical Context This chapter delves into the debated perspective of whether a particular 'sastra' (ancient Indian texts or treatises) holds significant value for historians, particularly those studying philosophy. The discussion compares these works to foundational texts in other fields, questioning if its philosophical contributions are real yet implicit or if its practical nature overshadows its philosophical importance. Much like Panini's eight-chapter work on the philosophy of language, there is contemplation on whether the 'Atashi Ostrom' should be viewed as a pioneering effort in political thought despite its primary practical orientation, ultimately pondering its place in philosophical discourse.
• 05:00 - 07:00: Contrasting Opinions in the Arthashastra The chapter discusses how the common perception of ancient Indian philosophy being disconnected from political thought is challenged. It references Max Weber's view of Buddhism as otherworldly and seemingly apolitical but contrasts this by highlighting the political insights found in the opening sections of the Arthashastra.
• 07:00 - 09:00: Dharma Shastras and the Arthashastra The chapter discusses the intended audience and purpose of the Arthashastra. It is designed primarily for the ruling elite, aiming to instruct current and aspiring rulers on the principles of governance. The text highlights the seven crucial elements of a well-run state, which include the ruler, his officials, the territory, fortification, Treasury, and allied states.
• 09:00 - 10:00: Moral and Pragmatic Aspects of Governance The chapter titled 'Moral and Pragmatic Aspects of Governance' discusses the concept of 'Dandaniti,' which is translated as government, science of punishment, and rule of law. The chapter emphasizes the importance of educating future kings in this art as part of their early training. 'Danda,' which means stick, symbolizes the authority of the state and its ability to impose punishment. This concept is crucial for understanding governance as it underscores the intersection of moral and pragmatic aspects necessary for effective statecraft.
• 10:00 - 11:00: The Role of Dharma in the Arthashastra The chapter explores the potential original title of the work known as the Arthashastra, suggesting it may have been 'ET.' It argues that the current title, Arthashastra, is fitting as it deals with the 'art of the advantageous.' The text examines the treatise's 15 books that guide rulers on effectively using legal punishment and military force for the state's benefit.
• 11:00 - 13:00: Ashoka's Transformation and Buddhist Ideals The chapter begins with a discussion about the writing of a significant treatise, attributed to a figure named Katya, who served as the chief minister under Chandragupta, the founder of the Mauryan Empire in the Indian subcontinent. Chandragupta was a contemporary of Alexander the Great, and according to legend, they even met each other face to face.
• 13:00 - 15:30: Ashoka's Edicts and Moral Governance This chapter delves into the historical and moral aspects of Ashoka's governance, particularly focusing on his edicts. It discusses the treatise that is believed to include advice from a powerful official to a monarch, exploring the complexities in dating the manuscript and the involvement of the historical figure, Katya, in its composition. Over time, the contents seem to have been reorganized, indicating that the current version of the text might be different from the original work.
• 15:30 - 16:30: Comparison to Western Political Thought This chapter discusses the comparative analysis of political thought, drawing from both Gramarians and earlier writings. The author, referred to as Thalia, reviews and presents different political ideas, ultimately offering his own conclusions as the ultimate and correct perspective. The chapter emphasizes the synthesis of views, showcasing a variety of opinions juxtaposed to the author's definitive stance.
• 16:30 - 18:00: Conclusion and Preview of the Next Episode This chapter discusses the concept of a good ruler seeking advice, presenting various viewpoints. Some believe a king should rely solely on his own judgment, others suggest he should be open to all suggestions, even from children, and another opinion is that he should consult a circle of experts. Catelleya suggests a compromise between these extremes, promoting a balanced approach.

HPI 11 - Carry a Big Stick - Ancient Indian Political Thought Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 [Music] [Applause] [Music] hello and welcome to the history of philosophy in India by Janardan Gennari and Peter Adamson brought to you with the support of the King's College London philosophy department and the LMU and Munich online at WWDC a philosophy net
• 00:30 - 01:00 today's episode carry a big stick ancient Indian political thought what would your life have been like if you've been born or reborn in ancient India going on what we've discussed so far in this series of podcasts you're likely to imagine yourself as a sophisticated Bronfman well schooled in the Vedas and in ritual sacrifice as a noble Cassatt Surya warrior perhaps as a Buddhist monk
• 01:00 - 01:30 or nun or if that life seems too easy a radical renouncer of the a jivaka or Jaina school but of course it's far more likely you would have been a farmer or a cowherd texts like the Upanishads or from the Pali canon of the Buddhists give us at best only occasional and indirect insight into the quotidian reality of such people good thing then for the ahta Shastra this lengthy and elaborate treatise on affairs of state lays down detailed regulations governing
• 01:30 - 02:00 the lives of all ancient Indians from the king to the slave from the Brockman to the ascetic the reader who is interested in the dairy industry can learn from the attached Astra that ancient Indian cows wore bells on their necks so that they might be more easily located that cattle were in danger of being attacked by crocodiles and Tigers that buffalo milk produces slightly more butter when churned than cow's milk and that a cow herd who milked his animals twice a day in the dry season would have
• 02:00 - 02:30 his thumb cut off of course it is not only issues of milk and butter that are clarified by the atashi hasta even the briefest skim through the text shows that it presents the cream of classical font on such topics as warfare law gender relations slavery and economics it is a useful source for understanding the political context of Indian philosophy packed with information about the four classes of society and the attitudes of Kings towards their subjects and towards rival Kings so
• 02:30 - 03:00 there is no doubting its interest for the historian what about its interest for the historian of philosophy should the sastra be considered an early pioneering work of political thought is its philosophical significance real but implicit like the contribution of pon Andy's book in eight chapters to the philosophy of language or does the practical orientation of the atashi Ostrom mean that we would be mistaken to approach it from a philosophical point of view after all the Indian
• 03:00 - 03:30 philosophical tradition is known especially for its philosophy of the self its metaphysics its epistemology not for its political thought no less an observer than Max Weber the founder of modern sociology claimed that Buddhism in particular was too otherworldly to bother with politics and one might easily assume that the same goes for ancient Indian philosophy as a whole that assumption is however overturned by the opening sections of the Aatish Astra
• 03:30 - 04:00 from the very start it's clear that however much this text may tell us about the lives of cow herds and farmers it is written for the ruling elite part of its goal is to instruct rulers and presumably would be rulers in the basic principles of governance the reader of the Aatish astra will learn for instance about the seven elements of a well run state the ruler himself his officials that territory over which he rules the fortification the Treasury allied states
• 04:00 - 04:30 and last but certainly not least Don de which literally means stick and is used here to refer to the army and to punishments imposed by the state according to the opening lines of the author Shastra the stick is the subject of a whole branch of knowledge called don don et which has been variously translated as government science of punishment and rule of law future Kings should be educated in this art among others from a young age Dandan
• 04:30 - 05:00 ET may even have been the original title of the work we now call the attach Astra but the latter title is in some ways more appropriate Arta means advantage or success so arthashastra might be translated as the art of the advantageous that title fits the ambitions of the treatise whose 15 books tell you how the ruler should wield the stick of legal punishment and the military to best advantage you might be
• 05:00 - 05:30 wondering when we are going to tell you who wrote the earthís Astra if only it were that easy the treatise presents itself as the work of Katya who was the chief minister under Chandragupta who founded the Mauryan Empire in the northwest of the Indian subcontinent Chandragupta lived in the later 4th century making him a contemporary of Alexander the Great according to legend the two mighty rulers even met face to face at first glance then the attached Astra would
• 05:30 - 06:00 seem to be the advice of a powerful official for his even more powerful monarch the problems start with the second and third glances ever since the manuscript preserving the treatise came to light in the early 20th century there has been disagreement over its dating and the role of the historical Katya in its composition we're still the text seems to have gone through a subsequent process of reorganization so that we are reading a much different work than the one that was originally composed as if
• 06:00 - 06:30 all that weren't complicated enough the original version of the attached Astra itself drew on earlier writings like Pawnee compiling and building on the work of earlier grammarians cow Thalia as we may as well call the author reports on the political ideas of others even as he sets forward his own this is most clear in the numerous passages that juxtapose a range of opinions on some question koteas own view appears as the final and correct word on the subject
• 06:30 - 07:00 often because it adopts a reasonable middle ground in comparison to the extreme views of others to give just one example a question is raised about how a good ruler should seek advice one idea is that the king should keep his own counsel another that he should be open to ideas from absolutely everyone even a child might offer a good suggestion and still another that he should get the input from a circle of experts catelleya adopts a compromise position the king
• 07:00 - 07:30 should discuss each matter with a small handful of Ministers like Cattleya himself though katya is tactful enough not to say so he adds a similarly pragmatic view on the membership of the King's Council where others have insisted that some precise number of Ministers his ideal Cattleya says that it depends on circumstances this ostentatious display of moderate opinion in contrast to the extreme views of predecessors may remind you of Aristotle if so it might be because you've been
• 07:30 - 08:00 listening to the right podcast rival opinions are not just mentioned by cow - yeah but assigned to specific named individuals making these passages in the attached Astra reminiscent of the dialogue is described in the Upanishads these reports may even reflect actual debates at court certainly the impression is that there was lively discussion about political matters among ancient Indian intellectuals this is confirmed by the existence of other
• 08:00 - 08:30 writings from roughly the same period collectively called the Dharma Shastras including the so called mono sorry tea or laws of Manu as we'll see in future episodes these Brahmanic treatises will be an important inspiration in the Hindu tradition for instance among thinkers of the mimamsa school for the moment we can just note on the historical front that there are often resonances between the dhamma Shastras and the ahta Shastra on whose basis scholars have tried to say
• 08:30 - 09:00 which texts influence others on the philosophical front which had paused to note the very term dhamma which means something like upright conduct or duty in the widest sense moral social and religious how much should we read into the contrasting titles dharma Shastras and arthashastra is the arthashastra really about expediency instead of morality about taking advantage rather than taking heed of one's duty that's certainly not the
• 09:00 - 09:30 impression given at the start of the work in a chapter which describes the stratified society of ancient India the arthashastra defines the four classes Bronfman cafeteria vaisya and sudra in terms of their various duties and likewise for such social groups as householders and ascetics the state will flourish so long as each group carries out its distinctive duties and if that reminds you of Plato you've definitely been listening to the right podcast as
• 09:30 - 10:00 for the ruler great emphasis is placed on his character with warnings about kings of the past who came to grief because of their wrath fulness susceptibility to pleasure vanity and so on later we are told that the Kings happiness is bound up with that of his subjects a similarly moralistic take on political life is found in the sections of the ah--this Shastra that deal with law kau Thalia states that the imposition of justice is a crucial
• 10:00 - 10:30 responsibility of the king many of the detailed legal provisions also seem to consider not simply which laws will be expedient but which are most just kouchi Lea has much to say about which punishments should be meted out for which crimes and adopts the fundamental principle that the punishment should indeed fit the crime this manifests itself in attractive ways as when Cattleya lays down that people should be excused from blame for an accident if they took reasonable precautions and in
• 10:30 - 11:00 less attractive ways as when he says that the fine to be paid for violating the rights of a slave is smaller than the one paid for running a free citizen yet for long stretches of the ah--this astra Cattleya takes a purely pragmatic if not cynical approach to his subject religion in particular features chiefly as a social phenomenon which the king should use to manage his subjects this has led some readers to see the attached Astra as an early example of the kind of
• 11:00 - 11:30 materialist and even atheistic attitude more explicitly espoused by the philosophical school known as Chad vaca Cattleya has good reason for this hard-headed approach he conceives political life largely as a struggle against various threats to stability and prosperity he calls internal and natural threats to the community thorns and explains how the ruler may best remove these thorns by taking precautions against floods and
• 11:30 - 12:00 other natural calamities to say nothing of attacks by Tigers and demons of even greater interest to him is the external threat posed by enemy Kings he supplies ample advice on how to defeat enemies in war and also unmanipulated and deceiving them the moralist tone of other passages is nowhere in evidence as he speaks of how best to use spies how to encourage subversive factions within a rival state or how an enemy king can be tricked into
• 12:00 - 12:30 letting himself be captured when it comes to financial matters Cattleya is not above suggesting some rather underhanded techniques for filling the royal treasury such as planting counterfeit money on an enemy of the state as a pretext for confiscating his property such passages call to mind a different European political thinker not Plato but Machiavelli the apparent tension between the moralistic and Machiavellian approaches in the atashi hasta could be
• 12:30 - 13:00 explained in light of the composite nature of the work it combines ideas from different authors with different mindsets alternatively one can seek out who you as a moralist who is realistic enough to know that building a just society will require the ruler to get his hands dirty now and again or one could argue in the other direction the talk of Dhamma of the Kings admirable character or of legal justice is to be explained in light of Callias practical aims the king should impose
• 13:00 - 13:30 moderate punishments and hold his subjects to their duties not as ends in themselves but as factors that contribute to the stability of the community and his continued rule the oscillation between the king is stick-wielding enforcer and King as moral Paragon was embodied by Chandragupta the monarch served by the historical cow Thalia his empire was built on conquest perhaps aided by the power vacuum that Alexander the Great left behind when he departed from
• 13:30 - 14:00 Northwestern India yet at the end of his life he supposedly became devoted to the spiritual path of the jayna's his death is even reported as the consequence of the radically ascetic practices of the jayna's though it is also said that he was poisoned by none other than cow Thalia who's attached Astra just happens to mention a debate over whether a Kings Minister should seize power on the demise of the monarch in the absence of an heir the Indian tradition did recognize the possibility of having the
• 14:00 - 14:30 aristocracy elect a new leader this custom is reported by the Greek historian megasthenes and perhaps represented in a story that has Indra being chosen as the king by the other gods but when a son was available power would pass to him and this was the case with the Modi'in dynasty which brings us to the most famous political ruler of ancient India Ashoka he was chandragupta's grandson and thus
• 14:30 - 15:00 inherited dominion over the mauryan empire an empire he went on to expand through further conquest he gives us another and even more acute case of the paradigmatic choice that faces the ruler whether to pursue brutal pragmatism or pious virtue the many legends told about Ashoka have him making the former choice early in his reign he was known as Chand ahsoka or Ashoka the cruel he had 99 of his brothers killed to eliminate
• 15:00 - 15:30 challengers for the throne when he learned the 500 women of his harem were mocking his ugliness he had them all burnt alive he built a horrific prison and torture house known as Ashoka's hell but then he underwent a dramatic transformation from merciless tyrant to a moral exemplar who despised violence so much that he disliked even the killing and eating of animals a conversion if you will from stick to what could account for such an
• 15:30 - 16:00 about-face in a word Buddhism it was especially the Buddhist tradition that passed down and elaborated the legends of Ashoka unfortunately it was chronologically implausible that the mighty king could actually have met the Buddha so the biographers settle for claiming that in his previous life Ashoka was a humble child who offered the passing Buddha the only gift he could manage a handful of dirt in his new life as a king Ashoka turned away from his cruel ways after being converted by a Buddhist
• 16:00 - 16:30 monk named Samudra he took to the teaching with the same enthusiasm and commitment he had previously reserved for sadistic tyranny and built 84,000 stupas or burial mounds in honor of the Buddha the number may reflect a traditional figure for the number of atoms in the human body over the protests of his ministers Ashoka gave away all his wealth and on his deathbed had only half a piece of fruit left to donate to the monks there are also tales
• 16:30 - 17:00 of his showing humility by physically serving the Sangha or Buddhist monastic community of course such stories encourage the generosity of later monarchs and aristocrats who were invited to follow Ashoka's example but there was a deeper point here - Buddhists retained the Brahmanic conviction that political rulers should not only respect wise sages but even defer to them for instance by prostrating themselves at their feet as Ashoka supposedly did in honor of a
• 17:00 - 17:30 Buddhist arahat named UBA Gupta in more recent times the picture of Ashoka preserved in Buddhist narratives has been complemented and challenged by a series of inscriptions scattered around the former Maori and Empire these ancient inscriptions were written during the reign of Ashoka as a means of promulgating his edicts written in Prakrit they were incomprehensible to future generations and we'll deciphered
• 17:30 - 18:00 only in the 19th century to some extent the edicts confirmed the presentation of Ashoka in the legends some of the inscriptions lay down rules to be by Buddhist monks and it is clear that Ashoka did identify himself as a Buddhist on the other hand he is far more ecumenical in his approach than the legends would have us believe in several edicts he insists on harmony between different schools rather than encouraging all simply to adopt Buddhism sometimes it even seems that he is
• 18:00 - 18:30 beyond sectarian divisions entirely at least in his role as king furthermore it looks as though his personal conversion to Buddhism may have been rather gradual there is nonetheless a kind of road to Damascus conversion moment implied in the edicts - in the form of an inscription recording Ashoka's shock and remorse over the slaughter involved in his war against the Kalinga kingdom the very conflict which expanded his empire to cover most of the Indian subcontinent
• 18:30 - 19:00 the Ashoka of the edicts does present himself as a moral Paragon but not as the humble ascetic of the Buddhist tradition instead he is a teacher who exhorts and instructs his subjects to observe Dharma or he is the wise father responsible for the moral education of his children namely all those who fall within his rule he encourages Dharma by appointing special ministers to travel through the realm as moral educators
• 19:00 - 19:30 note that these ministers are not buddhist monks but government officials which again suggests that ashoka was adopting a lofty position of moral authority beyond all sectarian divisions the actual ethical doctrines espoused in the edicts are nothing too spectacular honor your parents respect life speak the truth show kindness towards animals and slaves more interesting is the implication that political authority should be wielded with an ethical purpose in view to underscore the point
• 19:30 - 20:00 Ashoka innovates by introducing a moral dimension to traditional kingly practices he styles himself as one who still seeks conquest but now through Dhamma rather than war and records how he is toward his lands in an effort to promote Dharma rather than to enjoy the pleasures of the realm in all this we may see a comparison between Ashoka and the Buddha himself who remember who is also from the key Sharia ruling class and who was not content to achieve
• 20:00 - 20:30 enlightenment and liberation but sought to liberate others as well yet ashoka pursues this goal within the political life rather than abandoning that life as the buddha did Ashoka is the king whose merit and Dharma consists in the encouragement of merit and Dharma among his subjects this echoes the most idealistic passages of Callias to Shastra such as the one that makes the Kings happiness inextricably bound up with that of his subjects naturally
• 20:30 - 21:00 one could take a more cynical view of the edicts Africa was one of the first world emperors to use moral teaching to secure unity and obedience among his people but he certainly was not the last we might think for example of the program of public morality in ancient Rome during the reign of Caesar Augustus but even the most jaundiced I must see that Ashoka at least bases his rule on the consent of the people rather than violent coercion as he puts it in an
• 21:00 - 21:30 edict placed significantly enough in the conquered land of Kalinga Ashoka wishes to rule by persuasion not fear as podcasters we're more or less forced to follow his example so we'll try to persuade you to keep listening not by carrying a big stick but talking too softly as we entice you with the carrot of a fascinating interview next time our guests will be Rupert Gethin who will help us wrap up our look at ancient Buddhism that's next
• 21:30 - 22:00 time here on the history of philosophy in India [Music] [Music]