Inspiring Philosophy Gets Exposed

Summary

The MythVision Podcast hosts discuss contentions with Christian apologist Michael Jones about biblical narratives and their potential influences from ancient myths, such as those of Dionysus, Anana, Baal, and others. By dissecting alleged parallels between these stories and Christian texts, the discussion critiques Jones' approach, emphasizing a broader understanding of cultural syncretism and mimesis. The podcast also argues against the idea that the Bible provides an exhaustive historical account, instead highlighting literary and symbolic interpretations of these narratives.

Highlights

• Dr. Richard C. Miller discusses how myths like those of Alexander the Great influence cultural narratives. 🎥
• Dennis McDonald explores parallels between vegan myths and biblical texts, showing cultural overlaps.📖
• Joshua Bowen provides insights on the Anana myth, emphasizing proper translation and interpretation. 🤓
• Cultural diffusion in antiquity often led to similarities across different religions and their narratives. 🌍
• The podcast critically examines Jones' criteria for establishing the historical authenticity of biblical events. 🔎

Key Takeaways

• Michael Jones critiques mythicist interpretations but may overlook the depth of historical cultural influences. 🧐
• Parallel myths like those of Dionysus and Anana can highlight similarities with biblical narratives. 📜
• Understanding ancient myths provides context for interpreting biblical stories beyond a literal historical perspective. 🏺
• Scholars suggest that biblical texts may reflect cultural syncretism and literary traditions. 📚
• Academic debate continues over the historical versus mythological nature of religious texts. 🤔

Overview

In this MythVision Podcast episode, the hosts explore the complexities of interpreting biblical narratives through the lens of ancient myths. They take a critical look at Christian apologist Michael Jones' rebuttal against mythicist claims that many biblical stories share elements with older pagan myths. By examining the historical context and thematic echoes, the hosts argue that cultural syncretism played a significant role in shaping religious texts.

The podcast delves into specific examples, such as similarities between Dionysus' miracles and the story of Jesus turning water into wine, or Anana's death and resurrection narrative. Expert insights, such as those from Dr. Richard C. Miller and Dennis McDonald, underscore the connections between cultural myths and biblical storytelling, highlighting the richness of the literary and symbolic traditions intertwined with these religious texts.

The discussion emphasizes the importance of understanding ancient myth and culture to provide depth to biblical interpretations. Rather than taking the biblical text as a purely historical account, the hosts advocate for an analysis that considers literary techniques and cultural influences that would have been part of the ancient authors' worldviews. This approach not only enriches the understanding of scripture but also places it within the broader tapestry of ancient literature and religious thought.

Chapters

• 00:00 - 01:30: Introduction This chapter discusses the importance of being open-minded to evidence while criticizing the opposing viewpoint's tendency to dismiss or discredit evidence. The narrator points out the inconsistency in the approach advocated by some, who encourage open-mindedness except when confronting opposing views, where they promote skepticism and closed-mindedness instead. This dual standard is criticized as adding unnecessary complexity and length to discussions, perceived as 'fluff.'
• 01:30 - 43:00: Dionysus and Wine Miracles The chapter, titled 'Dionysus and Wine Miracles', discusses the story of a female figure who faces a series of dramatic events. Initially, she experiences a form of persecution described as rude and dishonest. Subsequently, after her death, her body is hung on a hook, which is noted as being different from crucifixion. Surprisingly, she is resurrected from this state. The chapter touches upon themes of misunderstanding or misinterpretation, as there is a mention of a concept of 'three days and three nights' that is paradoxically both present and absent from the text. The narrative also alludes to a character, likely her servant, who struggles with comprehension or intelligence issues, contributing to a layer of interpretation and confusion within the story. The exploration of the character’s ordeal, resurrection, and the interpretation of time and events forms the crux of the discussion in this chapter.
• 43:00 - 48:20: Misinterpretation of Inanna's Descent The chapter discusses issues of dishonesty and the quest for confirmation bias in interpreting historical texts. It highlights a specific incident involving a person named Joshua Bowen, who communicated with the author about Jones's attempts to selectively seek opinions from serologists that aligned with his preconceived notions. When the desired answer wasn't received, Jones apparently ignored these perspectives and sought out apologists who might support his views. The chapter suggests there is significant historical evidence predating Christian texts that is being overlooked or misrepresented.
• 48:20 - 59:00: The Myth of Osiris and Horus The chapter discusses the examination of claims about Dionysus, specifically focusing on whether Dionysus turning water into wine occurred prior to or after the New Testament. A character named Jones asserts that this event is detailed in a text from the third century, which postdates the New Testament. His authoritative dismissal of counterarguments with a humorous 'shut up' is a focal point of the discussion, highlighting debates around historical timelines and mythological narratives.
• 59:00 - 81:00: Virgin Births and Mystical Origins This chapter discusses the similarities between structural and thematic elements of John's gospel with other texts, particularly focusing on the concept of virgin births and mystical origins. However, the discussion is interrupted by skepticism regarding the seriousness and objectivity of a scholar who appears to selectively choose supporting sources, ignoring those that might contradict their thesis. This questioning of the scholar's motives reflects broader issues in academic discussions where personal biases can overshadow objective inquiry.
• 81:00 - 106:00: Pagan Parallels and the Gospel of John The chapter explores the misconception that certain elements attributed to pagan traditions were widespread across the Roman Empire, clarifying that such practices were limited to specific areas, such as villages in Macedonia. It points out that the date of January 6th, often linked with these practices, is not mentioned in the Gospel of John and was introduced centuries later as Christians sought to differentiate themselves from pagan rituals. The chapter touches on the Feast of Epiphany as part of this historical narrative.
• 106:00 - 129:00: Jewish Influence and Syncretism The chapter delves into the issue of Jewish influence and syncretism in early religious practices. It queries why certain significant events, like the resurrection, are not aligned with minor Jewish feasts if there was an intent to imitate. The non-inclusion of these events in early scriptures such as John or the baky is highlighted. The narrative these elements appear in surfaces much later, post-Constantine and after the Donatus schism, indicating a late development of these syncretic practices.
• 129:00 - 147:00: Cultural and Comparative Analysis The chapter delves into the complexities and nuances of cultural influences on religious practices, specifically focusing on the Christian tradition. Key issues discussed include the appropriation and adaptation of existing traditions, such as the adoption of dates like the Feast of the Epiphany. The text questions how Christian scholars may have copied earlier traditions without acknowledgment, leading to significant cultural and comparative discussions on the evolution of Christian rites and celebrations. The narrative critiques historical interpretations and the choices made in preserving or altering religious ceremonies. The chapter challenges readers to consider how cultural exchanges have shaped the religious landscape over centuries.
• 147:00 - 169:00: Biblical Narratives vs. Mythological Tropes The chapter explores the differences and comparisons between biblical narratives and mythological themes. The discussion is initiated with an invitation to help Michael Jones, an individual seeking clarity on these concepts. The hosts, familiar with biblical and mythological discourse, mention a specific date—January 6—where a misunderstood or incorrect assertion was made by Michael. The dialogue suggests the importance of understanding both biblical stories and myths in their own contexts. The overarching theme emphasizes collaboration and seeking truth through informed discussion.
• 169:00 - 195:00: Debate on Historical Methodology The chapter titled 'Debate on Historical Methodology' discusses various historical records and methodologies concerning early Christian traditions. It focuses on the account by Clement of Alexandria, who is noted as the first person on record to specify the date of Christ's birth and also mentions the celebration of Christ's baptism on January 5th. The discussion further delves into figures like Constantine, indicating a historical timeline around the fourth century, and touches upon the beliefs of early Christians, including Gnostic views.
• 195:00 - 222:00: Paganism vs. Christianity The chapter discusses the contrast between Paganism and Christianity by exploring the teachings of a prominent teacher from the end of the 1st and early 2nd century, who taught between 17 and 138 AD. The narrative also addresses a dispute involving the selective reaction to video content, emphasizing reading comprehension issues. Clement is quoted to support the speaker's point, highlighting selective engagement by the opponent.
• 222:00 - 253:00: Monotheism and Cultural Evolution The chapter 'Monotheism and Cultural Evolution' delves into the analysis of ancient sources, specifically those dealing with the transformation of water into wine. There is a discussion about the relevance of these sources to contemporary readings. The narrative also mentions the historical context and importance of January 6, which was celebrated before December 25th, as per 3rd-century calculations. This date continues to be recognized in Armenian and Eastern Orthodox traditions. Additionally, there is a brief reference to the teachings of Basilides and their central gospel.
• 253:00 - 285:00: The Uniqueness of Jesus and Comparative Religion The chapter discusses the uniqueness of Jesus in comparison to other religious figures with a focus on John's gospel. It critiques the oversimplified assumption that John's gospel borrows heavily or exclusively from the Bacchae, a text associated with Dionysian traditions. The speaker argues that while there may be some influences, the specific cultural and religious contexts do not dictate a singular source of inspiration. The importance of understanding diverse textual relationships and influences beyond the Bacchae is underscored.
• 285:00 - 310:00: Conclusion and Final Thoughts In the concluding chapter, the discussion centers around the blending and evolution of ancient traditions and cults. The text highlights the challenge of strictly adhering to old parameters or styles, like Old English, versus the dynamic and evolving nature of cultural and religious practices, particularly in the context of Shakespearean times and the influences of Orphism and Dionysian traditions. The chapter explores how these ancient practices, especially around immortality and spiritual secrets, were intermingled in historical hubs like Alexandria, Egypt, where different teachings and cults, such as the Craus cult, merged Osiris worship with Dionysian rituals.

Inspiring Philosophy Gets Exposed Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 he said look guys just be open-minded to the evidence but by the way these dishonest apologists and their sheep of an audience just want you just want to believe so they're going to come up with these lame excuses to dismiss this so but you know be open-minded except when they're around we need to make sure you're Prime to think that they're really just evil or [ __ ] or something like that he has no problem telling his audience to be closed-minded with listening to us but other places be open-minded which is it come on this is why this documentary is so long there's so much fluff like that which is not
• 00:30 - 01:00 only dishonest Derek it is downright rude then after she's dead her dead body is hung on a hook it's not crucifixion then after a little while she's brought back to life now anyone notice I'm missing the concept of three days and three nights not in there it's in the text oh it is in there but where is it so it's not in there but it's in there she says is speaking to her servant he is either really not smart and has bad comp reading comprehension or is this
• 01:00 - 01:30 very dishonest and I think it's the latter Joshua Bowen wrote me a letter but not only wrote me a letter he said I already talked to Jones about this so I don't know why he drew that let me get this straight Jones was shopping around for serologist trying to get the right answer that he'd liked if he didn't get the answer he' like he ignored it and went right to the apologist and I am just apologist in theile because there's so much evidence from before Christian text
• 01:30 - 02:00 that Dianes turned water into wine Jones is wrong about just when this was even dated so he's coming in he's an authority he runs in and goes it's postdates the New Testament it's a third Century text that dionis turns water into wine and then he goes shut up everyone laughs dionis turn water into wine yeah that comes from a third Century text postes the New Testament shut up
• 02:00 - 02:30 [Music] we could see structural and thematic similarities with John's gospel what I'm sorry what what what similarities Beyond vague generalities he's not serious in my opinion he's not coming seriously he's not trying to find the truth he's trying to find whatever he's shopping around for Scholars that agree with him he's disregarding Scholars that don't agree with him to me that's the sign of an person who is not serious [Music]
• 02:30 - 03:00 here's the problem with a lot of this stuffff okay I believe it's not like was a Roman wide thing I think this was just associated with certain villages in like Macedonia but like the January 6th date is not in John this came from centuries later yeah okay this this came when Christians are trying to like distance themselves from pagans like they're going to do this then uh in Feast of episy was was a
• 03:00 - 03:30 minor Feast like if you were trying to copy this why not place like the resurrection date I mean right there's just a lot of problems here because again this is not in John this is not in the baky this is something else entirely it's coming about much much later I think this is even coming after the donatus split for example so pretty late I mean we're talking about after Constantine at this point uh I you yeah lot lot of problems here uh with trying again it's because it's
• 03:30 - 04:00 not in John we've moved into a comp completely different area though uh in terms of what the Christians are doing so let me get this straight so John was copying the baky and then all the church fathers missed this but then somehow Christians in the fourth Century figured it out but didn't write anything about it but then gave us the Feast of the Epiphany on the same date and but they didn't say why they were copying Eric help me out what am I missing here I I'm just
• 04:00 - 04:30 like what is the point he said help me out what am I missing Let's help him out with this first of all welcome back to myth vision and Gnostic informant for those who don't know go subscribe to Neil he's my bro uh we have a similar story we have a similar interest we have a similar passion and drive for truth and of course we need to help Michael Jones out he's asking for help he said what am I missing here help me out here well number one you're wrong about when they decided on January 6 he said it like like three times in that clip this is
• 04:30 - 05:00 way centuries later he said post Constantine then he said fourth Century towards the end of the clip wrong right Clement of Alexandria is the first person on any record at all to mention the a date specific to the birth of Christ and he also mentions that they celebrate the baptism too on the night prior in readings which is January 5th who is he talking about Clement of Alexandria he's going back talking about bilities basili Christian Gnostic who
• 05:00 - 05:30 lived at the end of the first early 2nd Century he was teaching just so prominent teacher uh from 17 to 138 ad and just to emphasize this point about what you're saying to kind of vouch for myself here I said this and quoted Clement in the video that he is reacting to and only chose certain things to react to listen I don't expect him to respond to everything I put but the fact that he accuses me later of reading comprehension skills not being
• 05:30 - 06:00 applicable to how I'm reading these ancient sources which you and me are going to go over the the most important ones that deal with this water into wine yeah is pretty interesting he's not listening to his own Christian fathers yeah and January 6 came before December 25th which is the 3 century when they calculated that January 6 is the first time they celebrated anything and they still to this day celebrated by Armenian and and Eastern Orthodox Church however basilides I was just about to ask you Central the central gospel to the basilan is
• 06:00 - 06:30 John's gospel so this is important right John doesn't say hi I'm borrowing from Ides Bakke eye oh by the way what what's the central thing about the Bak eyye Dan mlen made this mistake too they act like the baky is the only text that exists for dianis why would it like there is boring from the baky going on but the the dates or whatever or or particular culture and and cultic activity doesn't necessarily have to be from the there's
• 06:30 - 07:00 no parameters here that's an arbitrary parameter that's saying I need to copy Old English and so I'm going to go to Shakespeare but I can't apply modern contemporary cultic activities pertaining to Shakespearean stuff or dionan material which is absurd because once you get into orphism the whole lid has blown off and immortality and all of this stuff that plays into dionan especially in Alexandria Egypt where bilities was teaching where the craus cult was mixing the Osiris with the dionan so much of secret
• 07:00 - 07:30 this is and this is well well well uh espoused by diodorus of Sicily and plutar and pl they all talk about the the dianis osirian mixing in the srap is called and Alexandria so just look if we were in the court of law and I said your honor here's the deal the the this the defendant over here who's the apologist he is claiming this is fourth Century my good my good uh honor if you will whatever I've never been in court having to deal with this kind of stuff as far as addressing the uh judge that way but
• 07:30 - 08:00 quote the followers but the followers of Basil celebrate the Day of his baptism too spending the previous night in Reading January 5th January 5th and they say that it was the 15th of the month of TB of the 15th year of tiberious Caesar and some say that it was observed the 11th of the same month Clement of Alexandria so that gives you the 6th and 11th 6th and 11th by the way the Theodosia Festival that was that's mentioned by plyy who says on the known I know that goes from the 5ifth to the 11th okay interesting this is very
• 08:00 - 08:30 interesting and people should consider that especially when you they literally explicitly say in plenty there's a s-day festival so this is an important Point your honor I have a teacher named basilides who in his Canon his sacred lore that he's teaching in his community is the Gospel of John and he just so happens to have this wild constant imitation no one sings Zero copy this is the straw man he's doing we're going to get into this later but no one's saying
• 08:30 - 09:00 Xerox copy he's imitating tragedy he's showing the wine Miracle of dianis which was so ubiquitous when you see a man dunking a ball in a certain way you know it's Michael Jordan the God of basketball it's ubiquitous in the ancient world I'm making that point before we move on to just say your honor you have this same Epiphany date celebration for dianis right early not centuries later and then you have epiphanous in the fourth century where he claims this started at epiphanius in
• 09:00 - 09:30 the 4th Century what does he say about January 6th this date is observed by the idolators the pagans he mentions uh the birth of ion being born of a virgin on January 6 he mentions the birth of duarz being born of a virgin Nam cabba on January 6 and then he mentions three cities where this tradition takes place so this is a tradition as you of I have already discovered in our research this is a tradition that was going on among pagans right which January 6 is is is
• 09:30 - 10:00 one of these days and you know me Neil I'm calling Scholars like 18 times a day different academics John kenborg when I spoke to him about this very thing and for those who don't know he's a serious serious scholar yeah Christ associations he's big into all sort and he and he points out in that book How The Early Christ groups were doing the same kind of ritual activity if you will Myst of the Mysteries they're sort of following the the Norms of how you do your religions which is normal this is how culture works right right
• 10:00 - 10:30 but this is something we're gonna have to emphasize later that doesn't debunk Christianity Derek or Neil we're exactly so our conclusions you might draw a different one and that's fine we have no problem with people being Believers let's deal with evidence and facts and be honest with the material then draw your faith conclusion that I was just saying John kenborg said Gospel of John he believes was written around the same time bilities is on the scene teaching yeah same goes for Dennis McDonald and several other academics so let's go
• 10:30 - 11:00 ahead and move I can't believe you said that that's awesome yeah it's good to see you have changed your name to dishonest mapologist as we all know that you are I am a dishonest mapologist I do M apologetics which is the most dishonest apologetics out there absolutely absolutely we're terrible the and I am just apologist in denial because there's so much evidence from before Christian texts that Dianes turned water into one
• 11:00 - 11:30 and I just am in denial about it don't you know you see look how he's in denial you're obviously just really emotionally attached to your Christianity and you're not knocked over by the the sheer tons of of evidence that's just totally against your view and so there must be something wrong in your brain yeah that's the psychoanalyzing is the only explanation we get for this so that must be the what's going on here so yeah for those who don't know uh back in March I got invited to speak at a conference uh
• 11:30 - 12:00 and one of the topics they wanted me to cover was debunking like Jesus mythicism and Pagan parallels well Derek at myth Vision saw that and he got really upset with one sentence so he did a two-hour response to that one sentence to show that I was wrong completely and that one sentence was is that I point out that we have no PR pre-christian texts that mention diones turning water into wine
• 12:00 - 12:30 and he claims he has found some claims he's found some we're going to evaluate them uh and so yeah that's what we're gonna look at we're gonna go through this response we're not GNA play it all because a lot of it is uh him just sharing his testimony and his call to atheism and to reject Christianity you know the Evangelical style but when I did go to dereck's video I was a little disappointed and rather a little annoyed because the lecture is not
• 12:30 - 13:00 linked anywhere not a pin comment I'm like dude bro yeah what you don't want your audience to see what I was saying because there's a lot more context in that which is important uh needs to be covered uh which I will bring up some of the points I made there here because yeah there's a lot of points to bring up with regards to that did you watch Derrick's video yet or not I I was thinking about it and I think on purpose I was like you know I'm just
• 13:00 - 13:30 GNA live genuine react um by the time I had the time to do it I was do I was I was working and all this other stuff so uh normally I am Mr prepare uh this time I'm just gonna sit back and enjoy the show you actually did him a favor by not going through his whole video yes um and now you have the link in the description so that was kind of just a yeah yeah I did put your video in the description but yeah now you really you really want us to go through your whole video we will do that for you well I don't know about the whole ASP we have every aspect of his
• 13:30 - 14:00 yeah every important point you bring up so we I have 12 Clips queued up we're going his discussion about things he either completely gets wrong or borderline I think was dishonest about you know you give him the benefit of the doubt that he's just wrong but there's Parts in this video that you will see what he either I don't know you know I I struggle between how do you know when someone is is being deceitful or even lying between they're delusionally
• 14:00 - 14:30 driven toward a conclusion and startus I completely age it's hard to know when he is and when he isn't I used to be like that we're going I know what you're talking about cuz you have to defend the castle okay and you will do whatever's necessary but here's the thing that's psychoanalyzing we got to deal with the facts right right well he brought a bunch there there's a lot of fluff in there too so while he's critiquing me for being fluffy in my video he's being fluffy and the wellknown brandolini's law quote the amount of energ needed to refute a lie is an order
• 14:30 - 15:00 of magnitude bigger than to produce it produce it right so if I make a claim right now evolution is a lie and you shouldn't believe it well if I make that statement okay or I say Evolution did not happen there's only micro Evolution how much work how much material would you need to bring forward to to produce transitional fossils genetic DNA like you have a lot of work well I just wanted to show even in this beginning of
• 15:00 - 15:30 a series I'm starting a series Neil this is going to go for a minute and it's going to kind of tell my story along the way which when you're editing these 2hour videos that take us forever you can't put everything in there in your journey you can't put everything it's too much editing long story short I want to get through this and and show just one statement just like he did with this facilities mistake just like he does with a lot of stuff notice it took us what 5 seven minutes to explain actually give you kind of
• 15:30 - 16:00 context understand how he's wrong primary sources don't lie no and you have to evaluate those and we're going to go with experts as well as our own common sense and eyes and reading skills when we look at it yes so we're not only us two Rogue you know yeah we're we're not just doing what he does where I look for the scholars that agree with me and cite them and then go on our day we're actually going through the evidence and why we agree with these Scholars and what the primary sources tell us that's is not we don't just game where we just look for Scholars that agree with us and
• 16:00 - 16:30 count how I have three Scholars you only have two that's not how this is done this is about the evidence it's about the arguments period that's it and and Eric Manning is there kind of just to I guess Echo and high five is Broski yeah yeah yeah yeah that's ridiculous how would you do that why would you draw that uh that's so stupid like the whole video is pretty much making me look dumb so let's get into your videos because you were the one who were like Derek I know I saw this video by the way on the screen right now I'm showing this was
• 16:30 - 17:00 eight months ago somebody sent me someone somebody one of my um of my friends sent me a link I go what is this I click on it it's Michael Jones in front of some sort of convention doing a a a speech that he prepared yeah on mythicism and I'm not a mythicist and I have a lot of I made videos against mythicism but the the level of fallacies in here the straw man arguments that were he was putting conflating people who this is not in any way a serious
• 17:00 - 17:30 scholarly take so the fact that if you and me said again we're going to get into this I'm sure as we play it but like all Bible Believers are flat earthers and young earth creationists right I know Michael would feel offended by that right why is it that Zeitgeist versions of mythicism then equates you can't find pagan parallels you can't do any of this actual scholar do this yeah it's a straw man and I'm showing on the screen where I actually made a comment and says I cannot wait to refute this this is so
• 17:30 - 18:00 many problems with I never came around to it CU I have bigger fish to fry than dealing with this to me this is kind of low hanging fruit to be honest but you gave me the excuse to finally come AC come around and do what I wanted to always do so let's show the introduction and and explain what's going on here yeah and just so everybody knows I am not like I literally am so busy doing things I didn't add the link in the description but I updated it after he made that video and I saw and this one's in there now for sure there is oh oh you can go down there and I and I actually encourage you to do
• 18:00 - 18:30 it and and then come back and see how we examine it and if you're nerds like us go to the egyptologist go to theologist go to those who know about mithraism okay you're going to see that anyway here we go so have any of you ever heard that Jesus is not special he's just like these other guys he's just another Pagan deity they all rose from the dead they all died they were born of a virgin that kind of stuff how many of you have heard that before oh yeah yeah well it's all nonsense and I'm going to show you why remember that all nonsense so let's get
• 18:30 - 19:00 started here okay so there are two types of mythicist okay these are people who think Jesus didn't exist he was just a copy of pagan deities you have the extreme mythicist Jesus didn't exist he was just a copy of pagan deities you get a moderate mythicist they'll say Jesus was just like other Pagan deities not a direct copy they'll say in the ancient world every culture wanted a dying and Rising God this was just one for the Jews he he introduces the straw man here his whole entire rest of his entire speech is going to be about the extreme
• 19:00 - 19:30 mythicist yeah and and and matter of fact he might as well he should have renamed this against Zeitgeist right because that's this whole video is all quotes from Zeitgeist now he does bring up a few things that carrier points out tries to refute carrier in a couple couple points but it's very dishonest because he that he never says hey this is from the Ze guys document then everybody agrees is wrong except for people on academic he doesn't tell you where he's getting this information from
• 19:30 - 20:00 he paints a St he creates a straw man as if all mythicists are this extreme mythicist who believe everything that was in zikis or everything that you get from like really you know um Alexander hops to babylon's as if carrier himself is like that he makes it seem that way because he he doesn't differentiate yeah yeah he doesn't differentiate between carrier and this extreme mythicism as you'll see in the video the whole video is a straw man and like you pointed out this is the same thing as if I went in from in front of an atheist convention
• 20:00 - 20:30 or an agnostic convention and I started going Christians extreme Christians here's what extreme Christians believe here's what moderate Christians believe and then after I just just give you some arbitrary two different levels of extreme Christians and then I go on to explain talk about only the extreme Flat Earth Christians who go go to the Bible and say there's four pillars that hold up a flat Earth yeah oh look Christians believe in a flat Earth Christians believe the Earth is 6,000 years old Christians don't believe in evolution Christians believe can talk Christians believe this this and this and I say all
• 20:30 - 21:00 Christians are doing this that's what Michael Jones is doing in this video it's very fallacious it is and it's so problematic because when he does his response as we echoed back into the other video and we're going to continue to do so he will replace mythicist with Legend So now he wants to put that fifth prove Jesus didn't exist to you have to prove Jesus is legendary I don't need to prove anything you're the one skirting it happened throughout this entire video you notice how he says all this all of
• 21:00 - 21:30 this is nonsense none of this is true right what he does is he he uses zit as the great straw man dummy that he can put out there and say mythicist believe this all of this is not true he if he was a good scholar he would have used this opportunity to point out the nuances and and say there are some sources that do say this is true that do say x is true that do say Y is true this is why I don't believe it influences Christian that would have been an honest speech
• 21:30 - 22:00 that he doesn't do and that's where we're going to take down this I mean I it makes me even ask what's he doing up on a stage right who is he he's a defender of Christianity uh he's not a PhD uh in this and I'm not right but if you had me on stage Neil you know me bro even you get on to me about this yeah D you don't have to always only have a scholar back that quote up you know many scholars just go with what you're saying because you know Scholars back you you don't have to go and so and so and so and so and so and so but if I did presentation I'll have 15 receipts on
• 22:00 - 22:30 every damn thing I say and I'm going to bring you the money I'm going show you the money if I'm going to refute something I'm going to say the source that I heard it from I'm gonna say this is why Bart mman is wrong he said this I'm not just going to say Christians or just generally throw out a rant that's what that's literally what he's doing is the definition textbook straw man argument yeah yeah he's creating a dummy and now he's going to knock down that dummy first they need to show correlations between Jesus and pagan gods then they need to show they are not just Hasty generalizations you just
• 22:30 - 23:00 can't be like Horus did Miracles and Jesus did Miracles therefore they're the same it's not how it works they need to show the correlations predate Christianity so sometimes they'll bring up Dianes and they'll say Dianes turn water into wine yeah that comes from a third Century text post the New Testament shut up then they need to show a causal link between the New Testament in Pagan literature okay cuz correlation is not causation you actually have to show that
• 23:00 - 23:30 the things are not just similar there's a causal link so does the New Testament quote a pagan text to make a connection and then they need to show Jesus didn't didn't exist cuz even if they were successful in 1 through four it still would not get to five and I'll prove that to you at the end of this this is completely arbitrary nonsense these five steps that mythicists need to do is complete nonsense right we're look we're talking about the culture the cultural millu and culture influencing cultures and cultures or responding to
• 23:30 - 24:00 other cultures pelzing other cultures that is how culture works there is no vacuum culture anywhere so what he's doing is he's making this list of five things he's setting up his own parameters and his own rules these are my rules so my castle doesn't fall and the fifth one is especially fallacious because no you you can still have a real person in history being influenced by an a mythology or vice versa yeah as we see with the life of Augustus and Alexander the Great I think we're we're going to go through the these five as this movie unravels this video we're going to go
• 24:00 - 24:30 through these five but I do want you to point out Neil brings an interesting point he's actually highlighting the subjectiveness even of these five you must prove a causal relationship what does it require to meet those criteria to be a causal relationship for you because if your causal relationship is hi I'm Luke I'm a traveling companion of Paul I'm quoting Homer's Odyssey book eight verse 23 or I am quoting the the
• 24:30 - 25:00 prophet uh this person like you you if you need a direct quote then your your standard of causal expectation is going to be like more strong data that clearly gives you all the evidence you need so that you're not a dummy in the 21st century pretending you think you understand this material which was never written to you which we're going to get into all of this is important let me give you a prime example George Lucas produced Star Wars in the 7s and 80s and
• 25:00 - 25:30 everyone all everyone who commented on that knew how much it was drawing from the Dune novels he never denies it he never actually come out came out instead said hi I'm George Lucas and I'm inspired and borrowing from Dune right but he never denied it a carbon copy it's basically welln and it's not a carbon copy let me give you some examples on just some of the parallels okay you have Tatooine and oracus are these like Sandy planets where the where the heroes live the moisture farmers in
• 25:30 - 26:00 Dune and then the de collectors in Star Wars the sand crawlers in Dune and Star Wars are both called sand crawlers you have the sarlaac and the sandworms that look very much alike you have spice and dune and Star Wars the trading they both have that then you have the Empire and the Imperium Princess Leia Princess Alia you have the force Luke has the force right what's his name has the voice got it got it the voice and the and the force uh Duncan Idaho Han Solo a very similar
• 26:00 - 26:30 people pointed that out the Jedi and the pranas Bindu the list goes on and on and on sure the point is there's nowhere in Star Wars so you know that everyone can see the the the maybe genetic parallels or even just the cultural influences on this is decades before uh Dune was decades before uh Star Wars how just you know but the the major thing is you cannot find a scene in Star Wars that play maizes or copies word for word from
• 26:30 - 27:00 Dune that doesn't exist that's not how inspiration happens no and that is something we're going to have to get into and Scholars who recognize this have noted that now he does mention dianis not turning water into wine until the 3D Century um you commented on this he he he tried to correct himself and say I was wrong about the date but no no he didn't correct the date yeah he didn't correct the date so watch this derck is in the chat what up Derek you
• 27:00 - 27:30 said shut up first guys are you kidding me that that warrant's calling all my followers sheep and that I'm ignorant and that we're just want this to be true that's a little bit of a stretch but okay I'm sorry I said shut up I kind I mean the audience laugh I kind of meant it as tongue and cheek I thought that's how it would be taken not as shut up idiots it was so sorry I didn't think a tongue and
• 27:30 - 28:00 Chic Comon to be taken like that I don't think that warrants you calling all my followers sheep but supposed to be a shaping Christian yeah I don't know I said no shut ups but um yeah it is I I think I think this is I think it could be it's okay to be spicy you know and uh as long as you're not like degrading and insulting somebody and I don't think listen that happen on our side I don't think Derek was doing intentionally I'm just saying listen I think these things
• 28:00 - 28:30 you said did and I said earlier I don't think these things just came across the wrong way if I came across the wrong way too I apologize as for the text I'm talking about uh that's Achilles tasus uh The Adventures of what is it called it's um like LC like lucii and kopon or something like that I I'm probably butchering the names but I believe that's the text so what is he talking about it's not he said it's not a manuscript but it's from that text okay so isn't from the 3rd Century so look look it's not from the 3rd Century
• 28:30 - 29:00 uh Tim Whit Marsh who's one of the world's greatest classicists right now and by the way I've got some stuff I'm looking forward to in his future works that is going to be amazing I've been emailing him and stuff uh he wrote A Commentary exclusively on Achilles tacious book one and two and yes it is Lucie and plapon or cleton or in Greek lucone so you would bring that in um Jes is wrong about just when this was even
• 29:00 - 29:30 dated so he's coming in he's an authority he runs in and goes it's postdates the New Testament it's a third Century text that dianis turns water into wine and then he goes shut up everyone laughs now I know Jones may not have understood his words maybe maybe not as a mockery of you imbeciles you idiots how dare you do this again conflating scholarship that actually has recognized dionan tropes and imitation
• 29:30 - 30:00 in John not just John acts and potentially some have even gone further into other areas yes so he's mocking in a way and then I make a video response calling that audience that laughed at him while laughing with him really at those people who are making the claims uh sheep now what do I mean by sheep my sheep hear my voice and they follow me that means don't you doubt it don't you question it you follow the what the hell
• 30:00 - 30:30 the Savior says what the leader says it's kind of a fair criticism it's a fair criticism because you're supposed to be a sheep I say this in the video yeah they are never gonna fact check this yeah they're never going to know anything beyond Jones's presentation so here I am going to the primary sources like youil and I'm going to the academics like youil and saying okay hold on hold on what's the facts here he's wrong he's wrong about the date of the text this text was
• 30:30 - 31:00 written in 131 to 138 ad at the same time basil is on the scene and he's one of the great teachers in Alexandria like he's he's right he probably saw it being written for sure I mean who knows why why not at least in it's it's it's at this period and John's gospel is being written around this period according to the critical scholar we and I can't prove that I'm just guessing I'm just saying there's a whole lot I don't want people don't quote me on that thinks facilities was overseeing John no I'm
• 31:00 - 31:30 just saying if John's gospel was written in Alexandria which most people think it was based on the text in there based on what was based on what was happening in Alexandria especially with with with with Greek speaking Jewish people living there you're using the logos for example using platonic ideas right um and dionan the new dionan ideas of the bakos which is a philosopher as Plato points out a good philosopher like Socrates was a bakos someone willing to die for the truth again here you are in a period
• 31:30 - 32:00 right where they're still admiring the canonical tragedies the canonical homeric epics and that doesn't necessarily have to be the ory loving partying diis diis morphs over time you get the ion cult who is Ion cult Jarl fos and PhD points out that the ion cult was a syncretic deity of Osiris dionisis who is resurrected annually see and it's a it's a very much more modest um more more stoic and more Pious version of
• 32:00 - 32:30 dianis that that rises during the same time as Christianity in the second and third and then dies off in the fourth Century the same thing happens with the cynic with Heracles if you go and read any of The Adventures of Heracles this is your man's man okay this guy is bumping into every beautiful girl and he is definitely having fun and later on the cynics see him as the most the greatest model of a moral ethical philosoph iCal teacher you can have wearing a rough Lion's fur in club and
• 32:30 - 33:00 that's it going and living wherever he could survive um I'll give you an example the Pythagorean started this there there's a text from the the neop pythagoreans about Pythagoras called the uh the the oops Salon the it's it's it's called it's an Upsilon looks like a letter Y in English right and it's based on Hercules's decisions in life if he chooses the righteous path he has a life as a king as a as an Emperor as a as a leader if he chooses the easy path where
• 33:00 - 33:30 he has a lot of flatterers around him and chooses just to to throw his life away he has the hard path where he's sent where he's cast down into the pit so there's a it's called the Pythagorean oops salon and it's used Hercules is the model right for righteousness in this very tradition well different Hercules is a so dianis but we're going to get into this here I want to read the actual the quote of the about dianis that comes from ailles so that we can both and the
• 33:30 - 34:00 viewer can actually hear it for the first time if they haven't ever heard it hardly has she ended when the time of dinner was again at hand it happened at the season to be the Festival of dionisis here we are with that holy day probably theodosio or who knows some other celebration good guess lord of the Vintage for the tyrians claim him as their own proper deity singing on the subject of cadmus's myth which they relate as the origin of the festival and this is it so pause next to the Galilee
• 34:00 - 34:30 first of all this is Phoenicia right there in the Galilee in the region where the stories of Jesus first where Jesus grew up got it where we you and I were in the Galilee when we were in Israel and there's a they have a nice heniz theater Greek mosaics of dianis in in which is one one stone store away from G literally football field away from you just walk there um it's the it's the next mountain or next Hill over two Hills so in we we see orus mosaics
• 34:30 - 35:00 there it's a very heniz geekified land of of of Israel beautiful in the time of Jesus yeah I love that and so and Cadmus of course is the man who's from the East he's from this region they talk about Mount Nissa and that's in other myths but it's like you said SE copis sephus and of course here is the myth this this Tyrion myth which they relate as the origin of the festival okay in early days had no wine neither the dark
• 35:00 - 35:30 fragrant kind nor that from biblion Vine not maren's thran sort not the white Chan kind not the island wine of Icarus but all these they said were derived from Tyrion Vines they're flexing like where the we the other one the original the original mother of all Vines being a plant of their country there was a certain Shepherd noted for noted for his Hospitality just as the Athenians describe Icarus from whom this Tyrion story derives its origin so that it almost seems an adct tell they're azing
• 35:30 - 36:00 in the second sophistic dianis once paid a visit to this herdsman who set before him the produce of the earth and the result of the strength of his oxin but their drink was the same as that of the oxin since Vines did not exist yet water is what the oxin drink just like man man and oxen share the same drink dionis thanked the herdsman for his kindly cheer and pledged him a friendly cup mhm but this drink was wine the herdsman drink thinking of it danced for joy and said to the God where did you get this
• 36:00 - 36:30 purple water my friend wherever did you find blood so sweet for it is not that water which flows on the ground that as it descends into the midriff affords but a faint pleasure while this Delights the sense of smell before it ever reaches the mouth when you touch it it is cold but it leaps down into the belly and there far down lights up the fires of delight this said dionis is Harvest water the blood of the grape then the god led
• 36:30 - 37:00 the herdsmen to the vine and took hold of the Clusters squeezed them and then pointing to the vine here is your water said he this is its source that is the way in which wine came to men as the Tyrion Story Goes and they keep that day as Dion isis's Festival my father wishing to celebrate it with Splendor had set out all that necessary for the dinner in a rich and costly fashion but especially a a precious cup to be used for Libations to the god the point is the fact that he doesn't criticize that
• 37:00 - 37:30 this isn't exactly water turning into wine right blows my mind because you in your video pointed out I think seven or eight there's a lot of them primary there's there's eight total that I know of I don't know if you pointed out all you might have pointed out seven or something what two of them are contemporary early second century five of them are definitely before the gospels for sure so that's theopus Aristotle diodorus plutar and uh senica yeah okay those five have either water
• 37:30 - 38:00 from a fountain changing into wine and changing back into water or empty basins that are used we're going to get into this yeah so the fact that he when you pointed those those sources out he said I know those sources I read it from an apologist website so he didn't read the sources he heard a secondary source tell them what to think and they just R ran with it but the point is the sources that you point out are more explicit on water turning into wine than the one
• 38:00 - 38:30 that he admitted he could he's the one that says that one is water into wine why is going it's because it's later so he doesn't care yeah he doesn't care and and it's like oh whatever here's the thing I actually challenge the the mechanics right so so Michael Jones explained to me in this myth exactly where the precise mechanics of water is being transformed into wine where does it explicitly say water is being transformed into wine give me that in this Source get into the Greek I don't care good luck also where is the
• 38:30 - 39:00 substance and accidence being transformed in this narrative how ridiculous is it that Jones implies this is the source for this transformation likely due to certain academics who see similar language to John's gospel or because his source for his information is an apologetic Source instead of doing the hard work and going into the commentaries such as Tim Whit Mar's to see what the experts Rudolph bman who's written on this extensively dude there's so much I want to highlight something here your point was really well put so
• 39:00 - 39:30 just to make that point specifically you're addressing to Jones this is not even as as obvious as the earlier ones right but even in the commentaries when you read it there are certain Scholars who notice this is the blood of my Covenant sure Jesus uses similar type of phras phraseology here Tim whitmar says well it could be they both have a common Tyrion source which I think is true that could be that's what I think is true it could be that one knows of the other sure or vice versa possible some Scholars draw the conclusion that this
• 39:30 - 40:00 is a mockery of the Eucharist sure and here's my question if this is turning water into wine and this is granting Michael Jones position he's also wrong about the date though but I know let's just let's just skip the wrong next this is so obvious but let's just say but just so people know this is a second century text not a third Century text oh no second century all right we really don't even have to harp on that any he's wrong and there's no way even early second it is early second no 130s 13 130s you're off by a century
• 40:00 - 40:30 man easily so this is an important point though that I want to drill I need the viewer to really hear what I'm saying let's Grant Jones that this was a water and a wine Miracle postdating Christianity potentially borrowing from Christianity right why would you have dionis transform doing a wine miracle that he's already known to do for Millennia before this after Jesus in the
• 40:30 - 41:00 vein of a same yes same tradition so notice the
• 41:00 - 41:30 language in this purple water blood so sweet not the same water which flows from the ground end quote this said dianis is Harvest water the blood of the grape then the god led the herdsmen to the vine and took hold of the cluster squeezed them and then pointed to the vine here is your water he said this is its source notice it's always water that's exactly what the older source are saying about the water and the vine and
• 41:30 - 42:00 the blood water cuz we have a quote from timotheus of myus and I did not bring this in my documentary 446 BC to 357 BC wine is the blood of dionis it says yeah I saw this one then he topped a cup made of Ivy Wood with the dark usour against Dan mlen when Dan mlen tried to tell somebody that blood and uh there's no sources about wine being the blood of dianis people just look at this and squint and think it's the same but there from the fth century BC this is Cur one more time again then he topped a cup
• 42:00 - 42:30 made of ivywood with the dark drops of Ambrosia that's a Divine God's drink nectar of the Gods nectar of the Gods froth raising which he then poured into 20 measures of box immortality it gives you immortality by the way exactly drink this and you will live forever that's why Jesus says that drink andat it's the nectar of the Gods read that Source one more time then he topped a cup made of Ivy Wood with the dark drops of Ambrose IA for froth raising which he then
• 42:30 - 43:00 poured into 20 measures of bak's blood so this is clearly riffing into the same vein and in a in a first in a late or late first early 2 Century Greek person living in these various cities Philippi cor Corinth wherever they would read this and go whoa this is no connection yeah they would this is speaking to them and this is I think it was Tim Whit Mar that pointed out to you that the gospels are written for the Gentile world oh go they're not written for people who are
• 43:00 - 43:30 speaking Hebrew in Israel obviously they're they're they're meant to capture the the hearts and minds of people in dioni and Cults that's the whole point of it 100% let me just give you what he says here I was trying to do an interview on Achilles taus he says uh yeah but you know it's a commentary on Ancient Greek original and hardly Light reading even for professional academics but I am finishing a new book on why Christianity landed so well in the the classical world that would be a better topic hopefully 2025 and this gets even
• 43:30 - 44:00 better there is also a new translation he says of nonnus as diania uh the longest poem from classical Antiquity about the adventures of dianis anyway I just had to flex on that just no I can't wait to see that but as he points out that the the the audience is meant or the the the texts are meant for the audience of the Greek Greco Roman people without a doubt there that's why you have the nectar of the Gods the blood of drink my blood and live forever my not just dianis
• 44:00 - 44:30 prometheus's eor gave people eternal life too this is a common Motif common none of Omar xerox's copies there is an absolute imitation just like with Star Wars and and just like with Star Wars and dune it's the same concept Michael Jones asserted that the earliest account of dionis turning water into wine happens to be a third Century text which is after the New Testament making [ __ ] up here's where he will be proven F that up
• 44:30 - 45:00 proven not just shown this is the proof proof ladies and genten but I'm truly curious to know what kind of magical illusion he will perform to get out of this one first thing we need to recognize oh it's I have two magic tricks up my sleeves yes he does first is called reading comprehension skills and the other is philosophical methodology that's called sry that aanus writing between 170 and
• 45:00 - 45:30 230 ad is literally quoting works from the centuries before Jesus well into the third fourth even fifth centuries BC but guess what we don't even need to use a thir Century source of course text from the 3r century ad have dionis doing wine Miracles yep because the tradition of this God performing miraculous wonders with wine and nature stretch back into
• 45:30 - 46:00 Classical Greece and even into the deeper past okay let's just get to the text here let's get to the first one it's just before this point here all right here it is ladies and gentlemen I'm about to be proven wrong dices turned water into wne and pre-christian tech let's see what he's got this isn't all nonsense and no we don't need to shut up UD doxis says that persons who drink the water of Lake clitorus taste a distaste
• 46:00 - 46:30 for wine and theopompus asserts that the Waters of the Springs already named are productive of inity according to muus there is a fountain at Andros that water fountain consecrated to Father Liber dionis from which wine flows during the seven days appointed for the yearly Festival of that God look at his face the taste of which becomes like that of water the moment it is taken out of the
• 46:30 - 47:00 sight of the temple oh for crying out loud you gotta be kidding me you have been deboed hold on hold on Eric let's let the audience because we don't want it we don't want to we don't want them to be sheep we're just telling them what to think guys type in the chat do you see the problem that Eric and I are seeing here okay so type the problem the same it's not exactly promise pre-christian
• 47:00 - 47:30 texts of Dianes turning water into wine so if you see the issue go ahead and say what it is that's not water and wine thank you Nathan hey Nathan it literally is water turning into literal wine Nathan I brought the sources back for us to to look at together but I also have a surprise that you and I are going to show everyone so stay tuned let's go to plenty the Elder together again I don't want to Prime
• 47:30 - 48:00 anyone you can draw your own conclusion how analytically specific how Atomic do you want to get into the language to try and sift through and come out with a different by the way when he said my my magic is reading comprehension and philosophical AR me in the face well it's basically saying I could just be a sophist and just think of some philosophical argument to get around you that's how I interpret that that's what he does though that's exactly what not only him but apologist in general who go
• 48:00 - 48:30 into philosophy I find this and that's what gives me that Lucian kind of tinge in thinking dude these guys want to believe in tall tales and hope for afterlife and all that kind of stuff do I wish there was an afterlife of course but by way his reading comprehension is not there let's go persons who drink the water of Lake clitorius take a distaste for wine meaning when they drink this it makes them not want to drink wine this makes him not like wine okay and theopompus which is in that third
• 48:30 - 49:00 Century Source we lost his original Century Source uh I thought it was third aanus oh no okay I'm saying theopompus is fourth Century BC BC yeah I'm just making the point a third Century frag most being technically you know correct so he asserts that the Waters of the Springs already named are productive of anbr that people who drink those Waters get drunk they they cause them to be intoxicated okay and before anyone says anything about this being a frag that we found in a later Source it's the same exact story that Aristotle tells us so
• 49:00 - 49:30 there's the idea that they changed it later to copy Christians you're out of your damn mind cuz he Michael Jones would try something like that he does a lot this kind ofu go theopompus we lost the original how do you know they didn't change it to copy Christians he does this with the xenesta because the xenesta is all rolling text first of all he never mentions The Goth which is the original scripture of the zor asrian people ask about zor asianism he does this fallacious argument that the Zesta came way later but it's a rolling text that would be like me saying because the
• 49:30 - 50:00 Codex vaticanus the Codex alexandrias and the Codex cus are third fourth and fifth century that means we should say the new testament's fourth and fifth century that's the same logic but that's why I wanted to make sure that if anyone tries to to get smart about about fragments that show up in later sources you're just wrong and nobody's saying what you're trying to say right right no classicist and we we have Aristotle anyway right we have Aristotle anyway so he says according to misenus for those who don't know he is uh a three-time console but that'll get brought up here
• 50:00 - 50:30 there is a fountain at Andros consecrated to Father Liber dianis from which wine flows during the seven days appointed for the yearly Festival of that God so here's a at the fountain at Andros there's a water fountain a natural Fountain they didn't have Modern Machinery fountains like we do this is a natural from the earth water flows from a fountain at Andros literally water literally water there's nothing else you can say you can't say say it's honey you can't say it's nothing it's water you can't say it's air
• 50:30 - 51:00 it's that changes into wine there's no philosophical argument you can make to no ancient would have ever done his aristan nonsense un unless you took the wine unless you found unless you started like some sort of flow of wine somehow right and and the water there's a different water flow and there's a different water and then you somehow took the water and put it away and then changed it with the wine that's the only way you can get out of this so I want to finish this Source just for the viewers to keep uh so we're on the same p page I just had to emphasize it flows water 365
• 51:00 - 51:30 minus 7 Days right 7 days during the yearly Festival of that God where his presence is which is this January 5th this is the point which is on the night of January 5th January 5th the very the night of yeah the same night that facility starts doing readings of the baptism of Christ right and celebrates the birth on the next day January 6 the same thing they're doing here same thing so we already have we have more than a causal link here we have very clear and bolman actually echoed the same exact thing okay so he says that God's
• 51:30 - 52:00 presence there for seven days wine flows so water now you have wine flow the we have so for anyone who doesn't know the wedding at Kaa and we pointed this out is commemorated on January 6th in the earliest sources in E Eastern Orthodox Church the wedding at Kaa is a wine Miracle yes and here we have a wine miracle for for dianis on his Epiphany dat the same day got it so it says that the taste of that wine becomes like that
• 52:00 - 52:30 of water the moment it is taken out of the side of the temple okay what Jones does and we're going to notice that you'll see this later when he tries to go he just needs some philosophy help let me bring up Arista tilian uh philosophy that was jargon that was that was that was jargon go ahead there's so much to say when that comes up but I just want to make the point if you're wine if you have water flowing out of your fountain then seven days days the goddess apparently visiting you in the
• 52:30 - 53:00 temple and then now there's wine for seven days and if you get away from that God which is in that's the part he never brought up he never mention he never he doesn't emphasize that you mention that the people take the wine away away and when it's away from where the mirle when they go when they go away from the miracle all of a sudden the wine turns back into water again well that's what I think's happening right and the other Scholars think the same thing my point is is why does one start tasting like water when you get away from because it's turning back into water right
• 53:00 - 53:30 that's Comm that's the plain reading of the text the plain obvious conclusion you don't have stuff tasting like water because the point is the God himself is the essence of that Ambrosia it's his Epiphany it's his Epiphany his presence his wine so when you leave his presence you're not going to have that sweet tasting blood of bakus it's going to change into water like like the myth of the Tyrion in Achilles Tous it's not the same it's it's at his Temple too so that's why it's his presence so the other one that plenty says is it's
• 53:30 - 54:00 accredited by muus who was three times Cil and this verifies the Theodosia date that it says on the Gans of Janice that is January 5th the night January 5th by the way for anyone doesn't know the Gans is a lunar thing so when you see the known no the known means so in in Roman calendars you had the known you had the Ides and you have the kons three three marks of the calendar the known is is the first week when the Crescent Moon is right in the middle between between half of a moon and a new moon right so when you see that knows in the sky it's night
• 54:00 - 54:30 time so it's it's before midnight of January 6th when you start this well what what does Clement say he says they stayed up all night reading scripture on January the 5th and the birth and the baptism birth of Christ and baptism so we get this plenty is writing this clearly not influenced by gospels gospels are influenced by him he wrote he died in 79 ad John didn't was not written then yeah yeah yeah exactly I'm just making the point there's no influence and you might
• 54:30 - 55:00 even argue there's neither influence either direction CU they have common have common Roots so plutar writing in 46 to 120 writes but those of the thebans who had remained outside taking the city on their left Advanced upon the rear of their Enemy at the spring called cisa pay attention this is very very important here there's a spring meaning a natural flowing source of water that is always flowing with water right it says the here goes a here as The Story
• 55:00 - 55:30 Goes his nurses the nymphs bathed the infant dionis birth this is a birth narrative bir and a baptism birth and a baptism right here right there just the same as the dilans are doing they bathed him after his birth dianis is bathed for the water has the color and Sparkle of wine is clear and very pleasant to The Taste now I don't know about you bro I drink water we got water right here okay
• 55:30 - 56:00 if all of a sudden we were saying godess the godess present and I started going oh my gosh notice it's turning purple it says color it's sparkling like wine does and it has a pleasant taste M and then you come along the accents on that change the accidents but the substance is still water I'm going to look at you and go you idiot you're assum you're assuming
• 56:00 - 56:30 that the Ancients thought all thought this way or the gospel writers would have would have factored that in and they're right it does not matter that is sophistry what you're doing it's definition textbook sophistry trying to get out of this somehow trying to think of the best argument you could think of to get myself out of this wi I was a prophet was I not new I predicted he would do a magic trick total magic trick you got them dude anybody with a normal IQ notice that you're right here I knew this was coming and you might find something that you might go well I don't draw that exact conclusion that doesn't
• 56:30 - 57:00 matter cuz the whole point is not about did the water itself molecularly or substance or or accidents and all that transform into wine the point is this God is transformative and it's not just wine milk honey water wine he is the god of life and abundance that is the point and when he is there in the presence life comes a dead Wooden Boat boat transforms into a living Garden Vineyard of Life flowing with with clusters and
• 57:00 - 57:30 one this is ancient if you don't see the obvious in front of you I'm never going to convince Michael Jones I'm never going to convince Eric Manning there's no there's too much ego involved there's too much stuff here but the per I'm doing this not for them I'm doing it for the person who's an honest truth Seeker who's going to look at this and go dude what are you are you saying that dianis came and dug a trench and put a hydraulic pump of of freaking wine that's that's the only way to get out of this he literally later goes all right it's like turning on your faucet water's
• 57:30 - 58:00 running and then all of a sudden like you almost hook up a different tube I imagine and then there's then there's wine coming so the water's not the wine now that's the only way you can argue this and that's not in the text that's not plain reading of the text he does this but remember with a Nana it's coming up he doesn't read the text plainly as it is he thinks of some way to get out of the text right but the before we even move on though yes we have to talk about the basins because in the next section and by the way I have one more that you loved more than anything and it mentions a Virgin It
• 58:00 - 58:30 mentions an Ascension of Arad man I can't read the whole thing because it's too long and course hit the main parts the main part honestly Neil is is this okay doesn't matter about the virgin that's not a big part no it's not it's it's really this bakus in the presence of a stepmother naus a by the way bakus with a mother with his mother at a wedding at a wedding okay so we already have a a some sort of similar setting as what happens in the wedding at kaaa go ahead I forgot to even add this right this is cica yeah ca's riding in 40 to
• 58:30 - 59:00 65 CE before the gospels okay this talks about a sacrifice that happens then of course bakus honored bakus in the presence of his stepmother axis adorned by the aanc gave the abandoned virgin to the marriage bed compensating the loss with a better husband the the nitian stream flowed catch this from the dry Puma Stone chattering streams cut through the grass and The High Ground drank the sweet
• 59:00 - 59:30 juices right so the ring you have you have water turning into wine at a wedding where brochas is with his mother it's not just water it's a stream yeah but I'm just I'm just pointing out you have a a very similar situation to the wedding at Kaa and it's clearly drawing from the from the tradition that plyy that diodorus that Plutarch that theopompus that Aristotle are drawing from and panus later too they're all like it's a similar tradition and this is this is the tradition epiphanius is talking about in my opinion yeah pseudo
• 59:30 - 60:00 pooris and Avid bring up how there's like giftgiving powers that dianis gave to call Theodosia man there's so much on January 5th um that's not turning water into wine and here I have an idea here I I actually made a slide here because I thought this would be helpful uh to sort of explain the issue here so when we dive into this stuff this is what where philosophy is going to be held oh my God I can't stand can you just pause it for one second just just I'm not I don't
• 60:00 - 60:30 want to cut you off in the middle of this but it's so cringe when somebody who thinks their intelligence is bigger than it is tries to like tries to like pull a slight of hand and throw in some philosophical jargon like J like you know like Jordan Peterson style this is the this is like one of the most cringiest examples of this and I've ever seen go ahead in Aristotelian logic or Aristotelian categories excuse me there are two things substances and accidents okay a substance refers to the core the
• 60:30 - 61:00 independent entity itself like the person or the dog okay okay accidents are like Properties or characteristics that can change without altering the fundamental nature of the substance that's important so in the case of a dog okay you it's it's fundamentally a dog and then accidents can change like the fur the size the color the length of the nose perhaps that kind of stuff you get the deal this is actually important in transubstantiation so when we say the Bread and Wine becomes the body and
• 61:00 - 61:30 blood of Jesus the substance changes it becomes the body and blood of Jesus but for our benefit none of the accidents change so it still retains the accidents of bread and wine because no one wants to experience flesh and blood in their mouth it's be gross so that's it relates to transubstantiation when Jesus turned water into wine he changed the substance and the accidents in these examples we have no
• 61:30 - 62:00 substance change we have water that has an accident of wine we have wine that has an accident of water and we have there's a fountain and sometimes during the year it shoots out wine okay that's a substance replacement that doesn't say that they the they they scooped up water and then lo and behold Dianes did something and that water in the cup
• 62:00 - 62:30 changed to Wine you have a fountain that just replaces it starts shooting out one that's not the same ladies and gentlemen that's the problem there even if we grant that this philosophical uh categories thing is is legit and we can apply it to the gospels as he points out that the Bread and Wine the substance changes not just an accident right the same thing applies to to plyy to senica to diodorus to the to the F all the
• 62:30 - 63:00 fountain sources the water is no longer water there is no it doesn't get changed by adding wine to the to the stream the water changes into wine literally what you just did there some trying to make your audience think you pulled some slick philosophical trick is jargon and nonsense and it doesn't even apply it doesn't even apply you're still wrong even if we apply this to your sources
• 63:00 - 63:30 you still have a substance of water changing to the substance of wine so I don't know why he thought this was smart maybe some dumb people that watch him think this made sense but it made zero sense from anybody with an IQ over 50 I want people to think about what he just said about accidents and about substance substance is a being the thing the dog the human or whatever well the thing Bread and Wine literally turns into Jesus a human a flesh human with blood
• 63:30 - 64:00 he literally says in this clip that we're thank God the accidents didn't change so we aren't like Jeffrey dmer having to actually taste the human that were eating and drinking their blood from right I don't know if he realizes this how insane they sound right but on this whole issue what I don't understand is why he's bringing this up against you you pointing out that wine turns water turns into wine in five different
• 64:00 - 64:30 primary sources what does that have to do with that because it's a magic trick he's trying tool but he's it's such a non seiter right he's literally talking about a different topic now right right right because there is no there is no accidents happening there is no accident category happening in the water versus wine plyy Miracle it's literally water I keep saying literally it cringes when I feel obvious but I can't at the stress if is literal water that turns into literal wine here's the you other way
• 64:30 - 65:00 around it and this little slight of hand thing here by talking about the Eucharist is complete nonsecular is non it doesn't have anything to do with this 100% bro and what's absurd about this too even if you granted let's just pretend that okay the water turned off but on came the wine and then later on the wine turned off reading of the text it's not in the plain reading of the text it's obvious any ancient reader would have known this and the people they literally Echo this and it's not just the reader the classicist who know this material agree this but if we granted it he's missing the point it's
• 65:00 - 65:30 not exactly nothing to do with did the water stop and the wine stop he missing the point he's missing the point like the ground produces wine in this is the game that he will try to play to sort of distance himself from any influence and it also distracts people like you and me from nailing that evidence on people like him he could Dodge it and trick his audience who want him to be right this is my point that's what he has he has that um advantage over us that's it well of course cuz they're his audience and that's why I use the comment sheep because I'd rather they're his sheep or
• 65:30 - 66:00 his followers and you might call my audience sheep I'm saying look at the primary sources don't agree with me do not I don't have any like if you don't believe this you're going to burn in hell if you don't follow myth Vision to the tea I'm not a cult freaking leader I'm not interested in like keeping our little Tower built you can be a Christian at the end of the day and still believe the things that we're talking about with this material so it's just really nuts and you know what this reminded me of though him bringing this up something that he probably has very little knowledge to no knowledge on omophagia the practice of tearing and
• 66:00 - 66:30 ripping the animal apart why did they do that Neil in honor of the the tearing of dionis what was that about because they may not was a res it was a resurrection Festival of dianis who was torn apart by the Titans so they would rally eat flesh of raw animals in honor of dionis and to unite with him yes so that the same way he's reborn and brought back from the dead through the chewing as an infant dionis by the Titans you your self become one in Union with dionis and will receive that blessed afterlife this is
• 66:30 - 67:00 all linian it's an linian yep I mean come on like and I don't know how much he knows about that but it's worth doing take the examples by plen or Plutarch when one takes the wine away from the side of the temple Again The Taste becomes like that of water you mean to tell me it only tastes like water but isn't water how do you know Jones how do you know it isn't water how do you know that it's not in the plain reading in the Tex I keep going back to that if you just read the text plainly and then you go what does it say doesn't matter what you want it to say or how you want to
• 67:00 - 67:30 change the text or throw some philosophical jargon in to make it think that it's something different it doesn't matter the plain reading of the text is very simple period it's obvious yeah so how do you know it is in water how how like does the source give you explicit detail that it hasn't switched back to the original substance it was before the 7-Day Festival where the epiphany of the god takes place blah blah blah blah blah the the point is no dionis no wine yes dianis yes wine no Jesus no wine Miracle yes Jesus yes wine Miracle the God is
• 67:30 - 68:00 there showing his glory his Epiphany I wrote to a classicist a Greek classicist and philologist expert on dianis Anna Isabel Jimenez San Christal I try to pronounce this properly she's from Spain she writes quote site her all the time my videos you introduced me to her even though we were both connected to AAA friends with po yeah you introduced these are The Cutting Edge anthropologists and classicists of the
• 68:00 - 68:30 world and America's very far behind in the in these in some of these categories especially with re re rethinking about James Frasier yep and how they're starting to psize Jonathan Z Smith now or at least if you're still citing the 60s articles by Jonathan Z Smith you might you might have to rethink that you're you might be outdated now yeah they're not they're not it's no longer Frasier it might be Smith is the one getting outdated now according to these Scholars they're saying let's go back to the source but that's another video we're have to this is a great point that you're bringing up quote in most of the
• 68:30 - 69:00 examples and this is the end the conclusion of an upcoming article where she's actually documenting all these dianis Miracles these fabulous wine events that take place in most of the examples the miracle is situated in the natural realm the real world and consists of wine coming out of Springs and rivers when it would be expected that water would flow forth at other times it is said that the water from these Springs tastes like wine in Ellis the miracle occurs inside containers and
• 69:00 - 69:30 it is significant that the miracle is fulfilled in bronze cauldrons she puts the Greek up traditionally used to contain water used for washing and purifying oneself before a meal although the transformation of water into wine is not explicitly stated in some examples it is clear that what is expected to rise from the ground ground flow from the fountains and flow down the rivers is not water but wine milk or honey thus
• 69:30 - 70:00 in Banes for the miraculous action to be effective divine intervention is aicio Caan in myth the God himself is the protagonist and causes the miracle as in the episode of the Pirates narrated in the seventh homeric hymn or in the sudden appearance of wine milk and honey in the baky of Ides in ritual project prodigies usually coincide with dionan festivals that celebrate the arrival or
• 70:00 - 70:30 epiphany of dianis who is traditionally considered the God who comes periodically in teos Ellis and perhaps naos The Prodigy took place during celebrations comparable to the Athenian an anria anthesteria while in Andros and hilaro the festival seems to be the theodosius which we've been talking about January 5th both are essentially festivals in which wine and its generous consumption are the central element this image of the abundance of wine in the drinking contest contest that sometimes took
• 70:30 - 71:00 place at festivals may have given rise to predice stories about wine as a kind of torrent of drink that flowed during the celebration in any case this abundant wine is felt as a demonstration of power of The God Who as have seen we've seen is perceived as a Wonder maker with wine so we like all that to be said she agrees with us that anyone reading this would have known like this is definitely that so not only that there's there's I think there's five sources where it's a fountain that turns
• 71:00 - 71:30 water into wine but there's a few other ones where it's not a fountain it's basins and it says empty bronze vessels this is the one I want to get into because you and I thought huh that's not water turning into wine we both discuss this how it's it's you got basins here because in in the in the in in the John's gospel it's water with basins yeah they're in the basins and then but then we then some one a scholar pointed out to us um that those basins actually connected they go huh those bronze basins they're called um le le yeah I
• 71:30 - 72:00 thought it was lez or something but it might be le le yeah lethan I think it's called I'm showing on the screen right now um those that's the word that they use in py and or not in plany in the uh in the source that we get from right here we've got theopompus those early ones those early on so they use that word which is describing a specific bronze vessel that's used for what for water so this is from a the one of the top dianis scholar says yeah so
• 72:00 - 72:30 it says these bronze cauldrons traditionally used to contain water and they were used for washing and purifying oneself before that's the big part they're these specific vessels are used for purification purification rituals now what does John's gospel say now there were set there six water pots of stone according to the manner of purification of the Jews containing 20
• 72:30 - 73:00 or 30 gallons of peace and Jesus tells them to fill the water pots with water now remember they were already empty before he told them to fill them up with water so you have six empty water pots that Jesus then says fill up with water pots so that's the difference in this what vers this verse 6 chapter 2 so it says six water pots of stone not bronze now why would Jews not use bronze Neil because that's not their that's not their they use the stone they use Stone
• 73:00 - 73:30 this is a judaized version of that of that ritual ritual purification jug bingo so they they don't use it's not the exact the Greeks use the bronze basins for this in their elini Mysteries and other Mysteries the Jews use a stone ones even they both but the point the point is this the point is this in both text in both text they are using a a a a b Bas that is dedicated for ritual purification so even so you have seven
• 73:30 - 74:00 primary sources eight if you count panus but that's after it's fine it's still eight seven to eight primary sources that either have a fountain of water that that transforms into wine literally there's no other explanation or empty basins that are made for purification rituals that are supposed to have water in them turn into wine the John's gospel seems to UNIF those things where you get the basins that are made for ritual purification with water in it turning
• 74:00 - 74:30 into wine on the same day as Theodosia so you have a you have there there's more than there's more than enough causal links there yeah I mean like come on guys like where do you draw the line so so this is a very powerful Point you're hitting now you have three but Jesus has six Jesus is better double and guess I think you and me are in the same boat and agreeing we think John's gospel is literally making Jesus a greater than dionis and it's unifying the Traditions into one tradition and judaizing it and
• 74:30 - 75:00 sort of changing it purific doubling the amount of jars making it better for sure absolutely I think the major difference in the whole idea of one's Stone one's bronze is silly to me because they're both purifying this is what you would see in in in Star Wars right you would see Luke Skywalker doing greater things than than the araus figure right so you see what I'm saying yeah yeah it's silly so like six pots three pots now let's read a few of these examples just so people know
• 75:00 - 75:30 like what the myth is in dionis and that's you have the myth here in the gospel right so and I'm calling it a myth yes theopompus the Chen and this is 320 to 380 BC says that the vine is found at Olympia near the alfus and that there is a place about eight furong from Ellis where the natives at the time of the dionan games close up three empty BR Brazen vessels bronze vessels and seal them in the presence of all the people round about and at a subsequent time the next day usually they open them and find
• 75:30 - 76:00 them full of wine the same is said of Aristotle except it goes a little longer and it even goes further to add that like the meat uh meat in the city bir pretty much the same exact story but the birds even know it says that the birds they know that meat that is to the God won't come and pick the it's fun stuff pus I actually want to just contend the idea we don't well the reason why panus is is is interesting is because four centuries later the same tradition is still being written about by
• 76:00 - 76:30 panus contemporary with the gospels it's literally still a celebration then yes so it's so that but that proves that this couldn't have been some old thing that the Christians had no access to that's why I think he's so important so he he gives the same story basically you you have to read it again no and I'm not I just mentioned that it's the exact same thing three vessels six bronze uh we have stone right water want right empty vet January 5th January 6th it's like come on let's talk about this
• 76:30 - 77:00 theity this is a goddess called an Nana there's a text about her called The Descent of Anana in the text she descends to the underworld says she's stripped she's crucified they say she was dead for 3 days and three nights and then she resurrected sounds like Jesus the text is available online anyone can go and read it very easy to find not his descent translation in the text here's what we see she descends to the underworld okay when she gets there she's stripped of one piece of clothing
• 77:00 - 77:30 at seven different Gates okay so she eventually is naked tries to seize the throne of the underworld she tries to take the throne for herself but the gods of the underworld are so powerful they just pronounce her dead and she's dead then after she's dead her dead body is hung on a hook that's not crucifixion then after after a little while she's brought back to life now anyone notice I'm missing the concept of
• 77:30 - 78:00 3 days and three nights not in there it's in the text oh it is in there but where is it so it's not in there but in there she says this is speaking to her servant early in the text she says on this day I will descend to the underworld when I've arrived n kaburu arrived in the Underworld that is make a lament for me okay beat the drum for me in the sanctuary make the rounds of the houses of the Gods so when a n gets to the underworld nink kaburu is supposed to start lamenting for her then we read in between these two
• 78:00 - 78:30 text we read that Aon descends and dies so then we read after 3 days and three nights had passed her Minister n kaburu she made a lament for her in the ruined house she beat the drum she made the rounds of the houses of the Gods for her what mythicists have done is they've misunderstood the text it doesn't say she was dead for 3 days and three nights it says that her descent to the underworld took 3 days and three nights they've assumed the 3 days and three nights corresponded to her death not her
• 78:30 - 79:00 descent so Anana is not dead for 3 days and three nights they misread the text it corresponds to her descending because it's an instruction for her servant that was either he is either really not smart has bad compreh reading comprehension or is very dishonest and I think it's the latter because what he just did there first he tries to say you guys heard there was three days and three nights it's not in there list in the text that that AR right there is sort of a slight of hand that's a you're saying it's not
• 79:00 - 79:30 in there but it is in there yeah why is he saying that that didn't make sense why do you think psycho analyze him just a second why do you think he it's sort of a way to shake up like you thought you heard this was in there it's not really what think my Christian audience don't get worked up over this so then he's then he continues and I and when I first saw I go let me see how he's going to argue this there's no way you can argue it's not in the text it's in the text stanle of Noah Kramer is the standard translation there's other translations that also say this same thing the standard reading of the text talks about the pre the thing that he
• 79:30 - 80:00 wrote on the screen is is in there it's in the it's early on in the text yeah then there's about 10 verses that he doesn't show on the screen and then it says inana was like a corpse her corpse was hung on a hook immediately after that the next thing that it says does there's no there's no text in between the very next text says after three days and three nights and then there's some stuff that happens the plain reading once again we're going back to the plain reading of the text again the plain
• 80:00 - 80:30 reading of the text is that a Nana was dead was a was a corpse on a hook and then immediately it says after three days and three nights and then then there's a process of anky taking the the uh the Water of Life and having it sprinkled out the point is the point is the only indication of time passing in this entire myth is three days and three nights there is no indication that it's any longer than that the what he did there was put on put text on the screen to make it seem like the text says this
• 80:30 - 81:00 and then it says this but he leaves out the what the original text says and I think he did it on purpose so this actually gets juicy cuz I reach out to Joshua Bowen look Jones said I was afraid of showing my audience's original video being funny probably but either way I wasn't so I was like all right you brought me into this you're like check this out look at what he's saying about Anana so I just so happen to know an a serologist who's a serious one who knows how to research his stuff hey Josh check
• 81:00 - 81:30 it out man I got this problem Michael Jones can you see this clip right here what Michael Jones is saying what are your thoughts about this because this isn't how it looks in Sam n Kramer's interpretation his translation and then Joshua Bowen wrote me a letter but not only wrote me a letter he said I already talked to Jones about this so I don't know why he drew that let me get this straight Jones was shopping around for a serly arist trying get the right answer that he' liked if he didn't get the answer he like he ignored it and went right to the apologist well he literally
• 81:30 - 82:00 told he told Joshua Bowen that he was actually using the work George landez who wrote in 1967 and the the AR the one that he agrees with that is he agrees with it right it's a three or four page article I read it today the three days and three nights Motif in Jonah 21 which is definitely in Greek a katabasis this is a katonic underworld descent that's the point the 3day motif is from that right this now this article tries to go bend over backwards to hunt only biblical antecedants biblical taxs to find
• 82:00 - 82:30 there's a lot of three days and then there's three days after and then this three-day Journey there's a lot of that but there's no descent into death type of three days and three nights anywhere in the Bible and this guy admits it but he tries to interpret Sam and Noah Craner he disagrees with a person who could read Sumerian and this guy does not he might he might know Hebrew but I can't it's like it's like if I'm going to go to a medical doctor and that's medical doctor says you need this prescription for this particular case yeah and then I go okay Joan what should
• 82:30 - 83:00 I do here that's what that's what you're doing you're doing the same thing that's a good point so he goes and finds this this scholar right and this scholar actually turns around and says actually this is his conclusion he interprets that as three days and three nights descent which is exactly what Jones tried to do in this after asking a Bonafide serologist why are you on a on stage not even giving like full disclosure about who your source is in the inter nuances I heard from this serologist
• 83:00 - 83:30 that said this I heard from this guy to say I just disagree with them and I'm going to go with this guy in 1967 who's not a suan academic expert way but the way he says it in the speech was as if these people are wrong and this is right objectively right without any nuances he's being dishonest right and there are examples so Josh says yes I remember this I actually had a bit of interaction with Michael on this particular issue I'll try to summarize what I told him about the suan how I think it affects one's interpretation of this passage I'm going to read this if that's okay it's
• 83:30 - 84:00 it's beefy and it backs you up cuz you're I thought you saw my hesitation wasant I was like bro I don't want to like I don't know we don't want to like and you're like no Derek I'm telling you and I'm like I couldn't it didn't make sense to me at first now you have been totally Vindicated in my head first I can't remember if you cited the article in his presentation that you sent me I don't remember if he cited it either but I don't recall him mentioning this guy but either way he goes on and describes William F Albright in the early 50s at John's Hopkins University earned a PhD inetics in the article he deals briefly
• 84:00 - 84:30 a long paragraph on pages 448 to 449 with The Descent of Anana on the and the line in question relying on the on the then recent work of Kramer and ner he offers his own interpretation as theirs did not seem more likely than his he says when One Compares the text of Ana's instruction to ninar nin shubar with the account of his execution of her command it seems clear that nar's delay is to allow sufficient time for Anana to arrive within the Nether world the three
• 84:30 - 85:00 days and three nights are intended to cover the time of the travel to the cathic depths he off that's the kabus say that's the entire point he's trying to argue it took three days and three nights and this is what Josh said but the point of it is there's a three-day Motif in the text all that matters got it even your point is even if we give it and they're wrong but even if you give it to them someone reading this would have picked up this Mo just like you know what Jos says about this he offers no real argument for this position other than to say that
• 85:00 - 85:30 separation in the narrative between this statement about the passage of time and the Revival of Anana argues against understanding Anana to have been dead for three days okay so here are my thoughts on all of this first the grammar and syntax line 173 of The Descent of Anana is the line under contention here and we can show this on the screen it reads which should be translated and I can't read this but it's like umal which should be transl ated after 3 days and three nights passed the final ATA is used to indicate that the
• 85:30 - 86:00 sentence before which W without the ATA would be translated simply 3 days and three nights passed is now placed in a temporal dependent clause and what follows takes place after it as an example if I said Johnny went to the store but then added ATA to to it right like this Johnny went to the store that would be translated after Johnny went to the store you would be asking
• 86:00 - 86:30 what happened after Johnny went to the store that is how this construction works so what we need to ask ourselves is what the narrative sequence is here that's called PL perfect in Greek it's a verb form that indicates something that just happened in the past and that's that's why you have to have an expert read this this is it so he goes what is the order of the events there are several examples of this type of constr instruction being used with both in general and with specific time frames given 3 days and three nights in IM
• 86:30 - 87:00 merker in merker and inana 274 we read inaki in I'm going to skip these pronunciations because I'm not good just show it on the screen yeah which is translated having heard this matter in sharana sent a man to inm marker in this section a woman and a sorcerer had been competing with one another and the woman had won she ended up she ended up with with him into throwing him into the Euphrates River for things that he had done the text reads she threw her
• 87:00 - 87:30 prisoner from the bank of the Euphrates she seized from him his life force and then returned to her City iresh having heard this having heard this matter inana sent a man to in merker in other words as simple as this sounds these two had a contest it ended this way and after Inu garana heard about it he sent a messenger out the ATA just makes the sentence change from inana heard this matter to after inana heard this matter it changes the it's so the plane once
• 87:30 - 88:00 again the plain reading of the text disproves what Michael Jones is saying and he's being dishonest by showing text on the screen that's not in the correct order why wouldn't you have just or or maybe it's in the correct order but you're skipping 10 10 verses and you're leaving out the part where Nana is dead as a corpse on a hook which follows immediately with the ATA after after three days three night exactly and then and then it's fine you want to argue that there's more time after that in between her and getting revived you can
• 88:00 - 88:30 but there's no indication in the text that it happens if you're if you're if you're looking at the text for what for the plain reading y all it seems that after she's dead she's she's hung on a hook after three days and three nights and then all this stuff happens seemingly in one day meaning she's dead there's three nights right there's no indication that between the time that it says 3 days and three nights and the time that anky revives her there's no indication anywhere of any time passing besides the day that they're in right
• 88:30 - 89:00 besides the current P present tense so he goes so that's all you get is it's all you have is a 3day motif there's nothing else that it says he backs it up of course in this response just giving like the death of Nama section c73 he gives another source another source and he just points out in both examples after X days y days had passed like he proves this with X others using this same grammatical syntax like it's showing the exact same stuff right then he goes on to inkyo and Gilgamesh the
• 89:00 - 89:30 death of Nama and he mentions that there are also something that vindicates your point nail he says there are alternative or if you will different versions of the Anana descent some of them have three days and three nights then some of them mention that it's seven years seven months 7 days so there are two other uh manuscripts seem to preserve that and then there's one that's seven months this is Josh's point he's like hold on what this would suggest to me is that the interval between Nana's death in the
• 89:30 - 90:00 Nether world and Nish shubar undertaking her Mission would have been understood in different manuscripts to be three days and three nights seven months or even seven years seven months and seven days this would be very difficult to explain I think if we're trying to read these intervals as the time it took to travel to the underworld I mean you're going to say Anana took seven years 7 months seven days to descend or seven months to descend no it's silly and I person personally after reading that article from 1967 think this guy's bringing his baggage from Jonah or from the Bible and and kind of imposing it
• 90:00 - 90:30 back I mean he even mentions early on how he's looking at the gospels to kind of look at Jonah and maybe in some way there's a connection on how we can understand Jonah through Jesus Jonah as Jonah was in the belly of the well for three days and three nights he does an interesting thing too that does talk about maybe the reason they say three days and three nights no is that in the ancient world that was the period they believe the soul still lingered in the body and that's why when you see Lazarus in the fourth gospel it says he has been dead for 4 days that's an even greater
• 90:30 - 91:00 Miracle because his his soul has left his body so when Jesus resurrects him it's been beyond three days and three nights the soul has left the body Jesus was capable of bringing his soul back to his body that's a radical so there's a lot more context but you were right yep and he does the same sort of fallacious argument with the next clip thank you Joshua Bowen we love you thank you brother so did bail die and Rise so Scholars like trig menager dag Enzo will say yes he was Scholars like Mark Smith
• 91:00 - 91:30 Jay-Z Smith Yan c deore h barstead John Gibson saying no he did not die why is that why are they just can't they just read the text they can't because it's fragmented a lot of it is missing in the tale the the god of death M challenges Bale to a fight and then Bale descends to fight him and then the text is missing so we don't know what happens it's unfortunate uh but then when we come back in the story The Gods are lamenting because they think Bale is
• 91:30 - 92:00 dead think he is dead and then all of a sudden Bale shows up and they're like oh you're alive the end doesn't say he resurrected though Mark Smith is clear he does not say he resurrected wow it's very odd about Mark because he says Mark Ball didn't die Mark Smith's translation says literally Mark Mark Smith and and Jeremiah kugan ball is dead is the translation there's another translation where it says the exact same thing I have an article here
• 92:00 - 92:30 from an academic article from Oxford academic by Mark Smith himself the final two tablets of the ball cycle cat 1.5 through 1.6 certainly seemed to provide evidence for ball as a dying and Rising God now he does uh he does he does talk about how there's the Gap in the text so we can't we we can only speculate on what the text says the nature of the Resurrection we don't know about the point is this in the text that we do
• 92:30 - 93:00 have ball is dead yes then there's a then there's the text is is is uh destroyed and then it says that an not defeats the god death or M and after the god death is defeated ball Rises literally resurrects there it's just again same verb it's the to stand all stands again it says yes and so we don't it's a mystery Mark Smith says it's kind of a mystery how it happens the the the
• 93:00 - 93:30 consensus seems to be because the death Was Defeated ball was able to resurrect it sort of was like a defeat death and and then life comes very simple actually that's the plain read once again the plain reading of the translation disproves uh him so much by the way he shows a list on the screen of two Scholars that think ball died then he shows a list of like five people who think didn't yeah you you could have had a hundred people on the list on the left that was a that little
• 93:30 - 94:00 sneak it was like a psychological exactly because I can think of a I can probably pull up a hundred Scholars that think ball died well right now we know one who's actually vindicating the entire category of dying and Rising Gods which we're going to be capitalizing on here in the future debunking nonsense from William Lin Craig and stuff here on myth Vision but Paula kente literally the most upto-date on ball right now is saying ball is a dying and Rising God and so is Anana she says she says the big three that craer was right
• 94:00 - 94:30 about these are peer-reviewed articles peer-reviewed books through through different uh Publications that she has written in the last five years saying that James Fraser was right about dianis ball Y and he didn't James didn't really write about Anan there wasn't much yet we didn't have but she says that Anana is a classical type of a dying and Rising God so Anana the three guys that we've already discussed this video that he's wrong about according according to the leading expert in anthropology current professor as we sit
• 94:30 - 95:00 right now saying ball Anana and dianis are the classic types of a dying and Rising God just to add the icing to the cake this wasn't just in her book which you and I have both looked at we've spoken to her several times can I show a CL real quick so again phaser talk talk about the gods that I started Bal Dionysus but he didn't treat inana which
• 95:00 - 95:30 is the Mesopotamian goddess because he in part he talked about this meths but he couldn't have the text that we have now so I think inana is the most important of these gods and so my dissertation focuses basically on her and by so I focused on them because no one pays attention to the text about them which I think High interesting
• 95:30 - 96:00 because they clearly talked about death and Resurrection or coming back from Death of these Gods so there is no way of denying the death of resurrection of God if you read the ugaritic text about b or the Sumerian and a Cadian text about inana and with dionis was is the same although the case with Dion is more complex I think that the category is working we have just we need to reorganize it and that that's what I was trying to do with my dissertation so I
• 96:00 - 96:30 think we have to make a difference between the different the way these Gods die because they don't die they just disappear on the sleep no instead of denying the entire category I think it's it more more clever just to reorganize it so we find that for the resurrection they use the same word that indicat standing for example in Greek the the word which
• 96:30 - 97:00 indicates Resurrection is the the verb anist MH which basically means standing when you sleep in your bed and then you stand from the bed that is the meaning of the verb and then it was us it used for the resurrection so in about Jesus for example in the Greek text about the resurrection of Jesus we find these verbs that then was translated into
• 97:00 - 97:30 Latin which is from where we we we take our Resurrection the world and it's curious that in the text in the Sumerian text which is the most ancient that we have we find the same word to indicate the resurrection of inana the goddess to to to say that she lives again they use suian ver to say to stand so it's very interesting this similarity even in the
• 97:30 - 98:00 the use in the language in the words because when we think about Resurrection our first thought go goes to Jesus of course it's normal but it does not mean that before Jesus I mean we have there is no proof that before Jesus God couldn't resurrect we not the problems that we are using the Resurrection The Way We Know It in
• 98:00 - 98:30 Christianity and Resurrection in Christianity has certain features mhm and we are use what we know about Christian Resurrection to culture who are more ancient we have to understand what this ancient civilization would understand for Resurrection mhm of thepress with the resurrection and we have to see if we
• 98:30 - 99:00 can apply the same word to them but I am not a fan of this fashion now of rethinking about words words are not correct we have to change the world no I think that we we use the word resurrect we know the word Resurrection right with the case of Jes Jesus and we can use this word and we can can apply this word to other gods and we just explain what this word means for the
• 99:00 - 99:30 other gods and what this other civilization would have understand for Resurrection so there you have it this is current upto-date scholarship no offense but Jonathan Z Smith is dated now that's that's almost half a century ago actually no it's more than that yeah it's 60 years ago so so I mean I'm not saying John Smith is wrong about everything why are we going all the way back to the 60s I get in trouble all the time for for citing uh Scholars from the from the 70s um I'm trying to think of
• 99:30 - 100:00 the one I was thinking of um anyways not France kumat another scholar that that I like to read from the 70s people go be careful it's in the 70s yeah but you Smith is before that I have I got a bone to pick with that because that's only used to weaponize against guys like you when I read like even right now Tim Whit Marsh the ultimate gangster when it comes to Classics right now in my like he's he's up there at the upper echelon when I was reading his his Achilles tus he references in the footnotes over and
• 100:00 - 100:30 over 1937 such and such classicist 1945 such and such you know like he's quoting people from 30s and 40s why he's reading them he knows that they're on to something no you're right kyl K is the one I was thinking about when I was talking about I say kyl KY all the time people go yeah that's a good source but he's a little bit dated his 70s Jonathan Z Smith is from the 60s and you have modern upto-date current professors with better methodology skill saying that
• 100:30 - 101:00 Jonathan Z Smith should be questioned a little bit yeah and that's it's a Dogma in the field yeah it is a dogma and when you start talking about things that are mimetic parallels Z Smith has been weaponized by guys such as who don't Jones but here's the thing about Jones he does not agree with almost everything Smith probably argues for which we're way closer to only Cherry the IDE you know kind categories
• 101:00 - 101:30 now the next clip that we got the reason why I threw this in there because he does the same sort of facius argumentation where he's only looking for differences and not bringing in the nuances again load it up was Jesus based on the Greek god Attis it has been alleged Jesus never existed it was just a myth based on pagan gods like Addis Mrs is claim Addis was born on December 25th of the Virgin
• 101:30 - 102:00 Nana well like the other alleged parallels this is all nonsense first I can find no reference to Addis being associated with December 25th and I challenge any Mystic to offer evidence of it from a pre-christian era he was also not born of a virgin according to the myth Zeus dropped some some of his seed on a mountain that looked like the goddess rehea and from that arose a wild demonic creature called agdistis the other gods found him
• 102:00 - 102:30 annoying so while he slept diones tied a rope around his genitals and frightened him to wake him up in a panic he castrated himself from the blood a tree sprang up and later on the goddess Nana came by to pick some of the fruit she then set it in her lap it disappeared and she later became pregnant with Addis if this has anything to do with the conception of Jesus then someone please explain it to me how this connects to the Virgin birth of Christ through Mary is beyond me the reason why this is so fous if I wanted to take King David and
• 102:30 - 103:00 say King David has nothing to do with Jesus which we know he does we know that they're drawing from David the new David all I would have to do is go through the books of uh Samuel and and Ruth or whatever and kings and Chronicles or whatever I could find and just look for everything David did that Jesus didn't do right and go look David was this David played a harp Jesus didn't play a harp David killed some of his own Sons he had children he slept with a woman who was married with someone Jesus didn't do all that no he's not and then
• 103:00 - 103:30 you're just like wait a minute what about what about this this this and this what about the Nuance where's the nuance and you don't get that with with with with uh Jones and so I wanted to bring up something I agree with him that well he he's he's only at least he was fair atast he was fair and it was Z fine yep Z is wrong about those sources they don't exist there is a December 25th but Michael Jones is correct that it's later it's from mcro we sat Orelia where he says that Addis is also born at the winter Solus which was September 25th at that time now that's true that's a later
• 103:30 - 104:00 Source we don't have to use that the point is during the reign of Claudius we have multiple sources Robert turkins mystery religions mystery Cults is the is what is like the standard text on this there's also the Oxford edition of uh Greco Roman religions a source book these two texts that are up to date modern modern scholarly texts explain that during the reign of Claudius which is the 40s to the late 50s he instituted
• 104:00 - 104:30 a new religious Festival that starts on the IDS of March now according to ID and Virgil on the Ides of March every year from the first century BCE till I don't know when they stopped doing it we don't really know the sources don't tell us but it certainly was happening in the first century of course that on the eyeses of March the priest of Jupiter the Flaming yis would sacrifice a white lamb at nighttime in front of the Roman Forum so on this very day where there's
• 104:30 - 105:00 a white lamb sacrificed on the eyeses of March full moon it's actually lines up at the same day as Jesus Believe It or Not which makes me that's this so Ides of March is this specifically Passover it's where the Passover Starts Now the Passover changes because it's based on the lunar it's based on the first uh Sunday I don't know it's based on it's it's but it's the same week right right it's it's going to fall in the same week every year got it now what happens on this day they started a new Festival of
• 105:00 - 105:30 Addis in the great mother that went all the way to the March 27th but uh that 27th is added by Marcus arelius so it's called the day of washing this is how we know this is how we can anchor this in between Claudius and Marcus aelius that they had this Festival of Addis where it was called the day the day of blood where people would mourn for the death of Addis and they would be priests initiated by cutting off their pretty wild stuff that three days so that that
• 105:30 - 106:00 that would happen on March 25th I'm sorry March 20 22nd got it was the day of blood this is instituted by Claudius on March 25th three days later this is why I put Addis in next three days later you can look this up for yourself in the calendar from filus 3 days later is the day of rejoicing of the resurrection of Addis so it doesn't necessarily have to be in a mythology that we have in our sources
• 106:00 - 106:30 there might have been a source there might have not the point is there was a festival during the first century in the middle of the first century instituted by Claudius they added days during the rate of Marcus aelius in the 160s so that's how we know it's between the 160s at the latest where we have a day of rejoicing and the time of Claudius who institutes this Festival we don't now it's true even turkin points this out we don't know the exact details of how this
• 106:30 - 107:00 week went on when it was first instituted by Claudius we know it from the sources that show up later but we know that the Addis Festival the death and Resurrection Festival of Addis was instituted in the first century and we know that Marcus relius added the day of washing on the 27th let's let's cover a few indicators that you think that stick out to you right and and what me and do is we do look for similarities we recognize there's differences but we also know that there's cultural diffusion and syncretism that takes place so they don't really pay attention to that
• 107:00 - 107:30 because they have isolated invisible you you can have um you can have festivals not just myths not just written texts that influence written texts the Passover influences Jesus too that's a festival exactly I think you're right no you're right so so we have white lamb white lamb being sacrificed on March 15th every year okay so Passover in a that kicks off that kicks off oh yeah another thing that's is in the sources they would have this this from March 15th until March 22nd it was like lent
• 107:30 - 108:00 where certain foods you couldn't eat you had to eat like I think it was like honey and milk or something and everything else was off limits okay so for people that were in this priesthood so there was like something like a lent I'm not saying it is Lent but I'm saying there was some sort of um some sort of ritual eating thing going on between the 15th and the 22nd on the 22nd they would bring in a the the the re re carriers the can of foro would bring in a pine tree and they would bury the pine tree
• 108:00 - 108:30 with an Addis figurine on the pine tree got it they would bury the God as if he was dead then they would go into mourning for three days on the third day they call it on the March 25th which according to the sources Mark 25th is the day Jesus resurrected yeah I'm swear to God I'm not making this up I know I know um so on the same day Jesus resurrects they have a day of rejoicing got it and then it followed by a day of washing that was added by Marcus Aurelius and the reason why that's key is because it anchors us to at least the
• 108:30 - 109:00 160s where we have all these other details of the Resurrection so we're in the second century we're contemporary with the gospels we it starts in the first century under Claudius according to all the experts so what I'm saying what I'm bringing the reason why I'm bringing this up is because there's Nuance here in Addis it doesn't have to be the myth from third Century BC the source that he's mentioned right there is from timotheus yep he he didn't mention timotheus but that's I know I know what he's reading because I know that Source it's from timotheus you're right that's that that version of the
• 109:00 - 109:30 story there's not a lot of parallels between the Gospels and that but this Festival this Festival which happens at the same week as Easter and this is a mystery cult it's a mystery cult by the way one more thing to prove that point right here that I'm not just making all this up what do we get from the nine preacher through through the sources hippitus in the I think 178 or something is writing about the nen preacher who lived decades prior probably in the middle probably 140s to 150s something like that the noten preacher talks about
• 109:30 - 110:00 the mystery of Addis as a prefigured mystery of Christ that he sees there and I'm showing the text on the screen word for word he basically says I'm sum suing up on the screen what it says he basically says that I tell my initiates to go and visit the mysteries of Addis for we can see the our mystery within their mystery yeah so you have Addis follow or have Christ followers mingling with the with the Addis followers in Rome in the middle of the second century
• 110:00 - 110:30 but what really interests the people about the nas scenes is really heavy vibrant engagement with Greek mystery Cults they are responding to Greek Mysteries and integrating the knowledge that they have from the Greek Mysteries into their understanding of Christianity and in effect seeing the Greek Mysteries as equivalent to Jewish prophecies that
• 110:30 - 111:00 is as symbolically referring to Christ as I said he's able to find Christ whom he calls typically the child of the human who inhabits all people he's able to find this in the cultic description specifically of the god Addis and and the very least know there is some kind of cultural diffusion of course cultural syncretism where overlap is happening in some way where these mystery Cults which I would put
• 111:00 - 111:30 Christianity into this box is as Christ associations with John kenborg there's some type of possible influence that's happening and if we add the idea of him being uh castrated if you will that he he's Terrier points out uh correctly that people say well crucifixion that's a that's a that's criteria of embarrassment carrier says well Addis was castrated and they were proud of that's the that's that isn't that not the criteria of embarrassment he says Addis crucified or Addis at his cash
• 111:30 - 112:00 rate at Christ Cru that's a solid Point as much as I disagree with car on think he's right about that yes yes that's a solid Point Unix Jesus says in Matthew that the greatest thing you can be is a unic for the kingdom of God and by the way this go into the Jewish sources look at how it treats people whose balls are crushed but this is this is in friia where where where pergamon is with the Temple of per the city of per gala where there's right next to galatia right next to galatia where there's a huge population of Christians thriving in
• 112:00 - 112:30 this cultural diffusion basically and what's interesting is Paul's letter written to the Galatians we need to add this point because he says to the Galatians he tells them he's so frustrated about circumcision he goes you might as well cut the whole damn thing off some Scholars have noted that this may be a jab at Addis Colts in the region in that region yes yes um and I forgot to mention I'm glad I just thought of this there's another parallel too with not just the Addis Mysteries but also in mithraic Mysteries where the
• 112:30 - 113:00 W the initiates the initiates of the mysteries of Addis would be washed in the blood of a bowl literally be they would take a bowl y sacrifice the bowl it would go under a chamber and the blood would wash the new initiate washed in the blood of the l blood of the Lamb which is in multiple verses in the New Testament right washing the blood of the bull someone like Michael Jose well one's a bull and one's a lamb that's the point yeah the
• 113:00 - 113:30 bowl is sacred to various various various mithraic Mysteries and dionis was considered to be the bow who was sacrificed true in a lot of sources in in the orphic Mysteries dianis was the bull so Jesus is the Lamb because of the Passover Lamb right he's the Passover Lamb they're judaizing the Jewish mystery that's the point he well a Jud don't forget they also sacrifice a lamb on March 15 so there there's so much to draw from and look you're not even
• 113:30 - 114:00 saying that this means he didn't exist but here's the thing about you and me we're not dogmatic we're open to the fact that what if we're dealing witha and they invented some of this material that we don't know is history and there's a slight chance that they're they're borrowing from each other at the same time contemporary because we're seeing the Addis cult rise up in the' 40s same time as Paul and then we see right around the time the new testament's getting widespread we see uh this the widespread of the Addis called
• 114:00 - 114:30 so there's it's very there's a very good chance that they're both sort of spinning off of each other and that to me makes more sense I mean I always thought it's common sense to me mystery Cults are going to imitate and have models similar to mystery Cults it's that simple that's how it is and that's why you're going to find crossover and overlap because they're doing similar things yeah immortality for each personal person who's in in initiate devote secret knowledge secret knowledge all that man there's so much here yeah Horus was born of a virgin Isis on December 25th in a
• 114:30 - 115:00 cave star in the east announc his birth visited by three wise men he had an Earthly father named SE which translates to Joseph baptized by anip the baptizer he had 12 disciples he performed Miracles like walking on water raised El Osiris from the dead he gave a Sermon on the Mount was crucified between two thieves buried for 3 days and was resurrected it's called Christ anointed one the way the truth the light Messiah son of man pretty convincing that sounds a lot like
• 115:00 - 115:30 Jesus right what do you say when someone says this to you Source okay you just can't make that claim all of this is practically wrong none of this is in any ancient Egyptian sources someone says Horus was born on December 25th I go what's your Source where does it say that sometimes they'll be like well it's in the Egyptian Book of the Dead really you know we got phones now I can pull that up right now I can pull up Egyptian Book of the Dead translation tell me where it is they
• 115:30 - 116:00 won't do it cuz it doesn't exist oh the next one after this is going to be Osiris so I'm I'm kind of combine these two but I want no no no I want to touch on horse because there is a source from plutar that suggests that his birth was around the winter solstice all right I'm going to read The Source real quick it says about the time of the winter solstice she gave birth Isis to harpocrates which in Greek means Horus the child imperfect and premature amid the early flowers and
• 116:00 - 116:30 chuts for this reason they bring him as an offering the first fruits of growing lentils and the days of his birth they celebrate at the Spring Equinox interesting you get the winter Sol is connected to the Spring Equinox once again you find this in diania Mysteries too there's something connection with them now oh so so that doesn't does that mean he's born on December 25th no I agree with him on that that's wrong but you have a primary source that suggests that his birth was celebrated around or
• 116:30 - 117:00 at least marked around the winter solstice which if we actually take this into consideration here December 25th doesn't even come till later for Christians it was January 6th at first as we pointed out which is around the winter solstice so you have two two Traditions the Christians and the Horus cult or the the the Isis serpis cult if you will that both have a birth of the Divine Child around the winter solstice it seems to be a motif that the divine child is born at the time when the Sun
• 117:00 - 117:30 starts to rise again right that just seems to be pretty obvious one more thing before I want to because I want to tie him into Osiris got it because him and Osiris are linked as a diad the father and the son as you get in Christianity with this idea with the father and the son are one this is what this is what this is the case with dianis and Zeus by the way same thing this is the case with Horus and Osiris so much Horus represents the Risen Osiris Osiris represents the dead God and the in in the in the old coffin text
• 117:30 - 118:00 the old ancient Egyptian from the Middle Kingdom the Old Kingdom the the the newer Kingdom before the Greeks were there the Pharaohs were called Horus when a pharaoh died he became Osiris very similar to like C how the Romans would have a Caesar and then he would name his successor Augustus you had this fatherson diad thing going on that's one thing that I want to point out another thing in diodorus of Sicily first century BC there's a source that says
• 118:00 - 118:30 the following furthermore hor okay Horus dies so I'm just going to point that out I'm not going to read the whole thing Horus is dead he something happens to him um he gets in trouble with Anubis and Seth does something he gets killed uh furthermore he talking about Isis Isis discovered the drug drug which gives immortality by means of which she did not raised from the dead her son Horus yes Horus Horus has a physical
• 118:30 - 119:00 Resurrection in diodorus of Sicily the word they use in Greek anast to stand to stand check this out anaste ready for this you look that up if you look that up I'm sure on the screen the the atmology of it it means resurrect or to make stand now Mark 10 has the exact same word used from Mark 10:34 where they say and after three days he shall rise again they use the word anestis
• 119:00 - 119:30 it's the same word in a different verb form exactly then they have they have the uh mark 9:9 it says and as they were coming down from the mountain he charged them that they tell no man the things that they had seen save when they see the son of man should have been risen again from the dead this one they use the exact same word anaste wow exact same word and one more example there's multiple examples I just want to give one more Luke
• 119:30 - 120:00 16:31 says and he said unto him if they hear not Moses and the prophets neither will they be persuaded if one rise from the dead they use the same word once again anaste so you have the same word being used for Osiris or for Horus who resurrects on Earth he doesn't go into underworld you're about to hear Mike make a make a acious argument that Jewish Resurrection is different from Egyptian well that if you want you're arguing about old Egyptian texts I'm talking about contemporary GRE Roman uh
• 120:00 - 120:30 Greco Egyptian sources diodorus of Sicily wrote in 50 BCE right before the gospel and in this Source Horus literally has an anesti rises from Death on planet Earth a physical body bodily Resurrection with the same word and you I imagine if we went into the sources Mary Cur has a book about miracles and she goes through these primary sources Heracles raises people from the dead you brought up Isis raises her son from the dead and others
• 120:30 - 121:00 by the way um also a sleepus also raises people from the dead she goes through various sources and then even philosophers have the ability to raise people from the dead you have theasian performing Miracles but the specific resurrection of the Dead you're bringing up like why this is a question lingering over mine and your head it's like why do you not look at those and take those serious yep why aren't you at least considering that's real they believed it back then he made it seem like there's no resurrection of Horus and there's no Divine birth of Horus of the winter solstice I just showed you both of those
• 121:00 - 121:30 are true and they're contemporary with the gospels so when it comes to Osiris Egyptian Resurrection doesn't mean Jewish Resurrection equivocating on the term Resurrection it means something different in different cultures Henry Frankfurt said a while back Osiris in fact was not a Dying God at all but a dead God he never returned among the living He was not liberated from the world of the Dead on the contrary Osiris altogether belonged to the world of the Dead it was from there that he bestowed
• 121:30 - 122:00 His blessings upon Egypt he was always depicted as a mummy a dead King in Egyptian mythology Resurrection does not mean you return to life on this plane of existence it means you die your body stays here your soul goes to the amduat the underworld and you're given a new body there therefore you're resurrected and you stay there you can't return here so you're gone forever that's not what Jews and Christians mean by Resurrection other Scholars like Jay-Z
• 122:00 - 122:30 Smith said in no sense can Osiris be said to have risen in the sense required by the dying and Rising pattern in no sense can the dramatic myth of his death and reanimation be harmonized to the pattern of dying and Rising Gods the repeated formula rise up you have not died whether applied to Osiris or citizen of Egypt signal a new permanent life in the realm of the Dead sh menager says Osiris Rose to continued life in the Nether world the general connotations are that he was a god of the Dead first of all I already showed
• 122:30 - 123:00 you that Horus has a resurrection under his own definition right but Osiris does too okay from from Plutarch once again written in the 110s okay so he doesn't he never mentions the gospels in any of his writings he's not he's not copying the gospels of okay he says when Isis found Osiris's body she mour wared over it with her sister nephus which is very much like the two women at the Tomb at the end okay and this happens in a lot of sources with Osiris when he's dead
• 123:00 - 123:30 it's two women who are mourning over him it's always like that she mourned over it with her sister nephus and called upon the help of the Gods to protect and preserve what remained she used her magical incantations and laments to breathe life into him temporarily allowing him to conceive Horus before departing the underworld he comes back to the Earth through her her magic he's back on planet Earth alive
• 123:30 - 124:00 gets a boner has sex with her conceives Horus which was considered considered to be the resurrected form of Osiris on planet Earth according to the ancient Egyptians not even Plutarch but here's the point he is he does come back to life on this plane of existence just like Jesus does and then what happens to Jesus after disappears he disappears again he does the same thing Jesus does don't you feel again here we are back to the tactics that I see used it's like
• 124:00 - 124:30 let's hone in on so many closeness molecules like like the molecular level of a something to try and lose and distract people from seeing what's happening look you even proved with his own logic right that he's temporarily brought back to life here in the real world now here's the problem Neil as you're you're highlighting something Jesus comes back but if it was really about resurrected life here or in real world why does he disappear and go off into another realm into heaven why isn't
• 124:30 - 125:00 Jesus dwelling here why is he got a temporary depending on which gospel you look at a temporary existence here just for a moment and then disappears like this whole idea that Jesus is physical body and he's really resurrected he's still a resurrected here he's alive right now why does he have to go and disappear from all sight and no one can actually see him or know that he's alive like that's find in these other stories and plutar is actually hearkening back to a source from 1700 BCE in a coffin text where it says they find the dismembered parts of Osiris and unite
• 125:00 - 125:30 them through their spells and cries of mourning and this was considered to be his physical bodily Resurrection before returning back to the underworld another source from another source about Osiris it says in gen this is from Plutarch again or no sorry this is from dioris same sour you just brought up about horse first century BC right for 50 around 50 BC he writes this in general there is a great disagreement over these gods for the same goddess is
• 125:30 - 126:00 called by some Isis by others demer by others Theses forus by others Selena by others Hera while still others apply to all her names Osiris has been given the name carapus by some dionisis by others Pluto by others Aman by others Zeus by some and many have considered pan to be the same God and say that the carapus is The God Who the Greeks call Pluto um so he's pointing out and the diodorus also says Horus is portrayed as the Avenger
• 126:00 - 126:30 and inheritor of Osiris's role so through the death and through the death and and getting her pregnant before he returns to the underworld he puts his soul his the breath of his life the ank into Horus so Horus is the resurrect in a sense of God he doesn't say that but yet he's the son of God who is one with the father there's a diad there this is represented in the Hermetic Mysteries too they highlight this so there's a lot there there's a
• 126:30 - 127:00 lot of obviously there's a lot to to draw from now the reason why I pointed out the other source about him being syn with all these other gods like like Pluto and sorapus and dianis is because Plutarch also seconds this from dioris where he says the Greeks consecrate the ivy to dionisis and they say that this is the plant of Osiris and then he and then a couple sentences down he says hermus too he's citing a source from two I think 100 BC or something like that makes this
• 127:00 - 127:30 statement in the first volume of his book on the Egyptians for he says that Osiris properly interpreted means sturdy I leave out the account of manaus 3rd Century BC annexation of dionisis Osirus and sorapus two athus this man character from the 3rd Century BC says Osiris carapus and dionis are all athus who's
• 127:30 - 128:00 athus I'll give you a source from Plutarch Osiris and carapus together makes them the same with athus athus is the Zeus begotten God and named from the laying of hands on himself on on Isis Isis is born of as a virgin birth of Zeus touching her womb not sex no sex she touches her womb and gives birth to athus who is according to diodorus and
• 128:00 - 128:30 plut Osiris and Horus and dionis yeah yeah so he's he's born of a virgin and then it says here's here it's John zetsy says where from the touch of Zeus she gives birth to oathes whose mother is Libya whose son is bellus one more Source that's going to blow your mind about about Horus I wanted to tie these together Horus in this Source from Plutarch says that these are nearly all important points of the legend with the omission of the most infamous of the
• 128:30 - 129:00 tales such as that of the dismemberment of Horus what wait now it's Osiris was dism Osirus ISM Horus is dismembered dianis is dismembered it's the dismember it's the death and Resurrection myth total throwing this out there at the wall but you notice how acts 17 talks about a tomb of Zeus you kind of Wonder because we know dionis is dismembered yeah why is Zeus said to have died and how did he die I'm there's no source for it but you
• 129:00 - 129:30 know no that's great that's a great point because the point is in all this cultural millu this is all these are all contemporary sources they're all first century BC first century Common Era you have either with either with Horus dionisis or Osiris who they say all of marathas yeah there's a virgin birth there's a winter solstice myth there's a there's a spring by the way Osiris's dead death is on the 17th of the month that Jesus dies got it so it's basically
• 129:30 - 130:00 March 17th March 17th uh according to Osiris is the day that Osiris is K Plutarch or according according to Plutarch Osiris is killed right after the full moon of the of the Spring Equinox the same week that Jesus is killed so there is you you have the spring aquinox resurrection and death you have have a winter solstice birth you have a virgin birth I mean all the pieces are there in the culture it's not one myth that says all this you sort of have to look around yeah it's there's
• 130:00 - 130:30 that's the point I like this I like what you're saying here and again mythicist would love this and this is why Jones fights this because people can come in and go well what if what if this guy was completely whole cloth and vented by pulling and grabbing motifs and themes and I I don't think that I think they're drawing from the cultural mil again just just emphasize this point for for him and his audience that might be like getting this idea that he's generalizing all zey right well you could still say there was a guy and the mythology of all
• 130:30 - 131:00 this stuff is being painted on him but the question is as he says well we don't know that doesn't mean it didn't happen or there isn't any history there good luck finding what happened dude right we're not saying there isn't a historical dude or that maybe there's some history there but as I'm going to read later you're going to see a quote from Richard C Miller like how Can you ascertain that you're gonna you're going to love it we're going to be destroyed we're GNA be destroyed I'm telling you I'm so you see this is the power of the myth Vision no I honestly Derek if you're out there I I like the guy personally like we get along we're kind
• 131:00 - 131:30 of like we're like frenemies I guess um and so uh good guy bad arguments um so so yeah yeah I completely agree a nice guy uh got to the end of this video and was like that's it like first of all I I knew about these texts because I've read JP holding who has broughten them up uh wasn't convinced when I read him then and not convinced now and we're going to cover that so so he didn't actually read
• 131:30 - 132:00 the text he read a secondary source about the text and was told what to think so yes he literally makes a few admissions there number one personally on the dudes I don't really know them but I imagine like most people they're probably decent people in real life I don't know them though so I tend to think they might be good guys I cannot describe how Incorrect and how far off I think they really are their arguments are terrible to me absolutely terrible
• 132:00 - 132:30 and special pleading on every single every breath that comes out that is defining or trying to make their case sounds like special pleading so the first thing is I want to point out destroyed you've been destroyed notice something they didn't advertise it they never told anyone but that's David wood they're imitating David wood because you know both sources I know the source I don't know David wood I could be like how do you know he's borrowing from David wood where do they say that they don't cuz I never saw that they don't but so you're wrong then he's imitating
• 132:30 - 133:00 David wood par parallel Mania Derek using their logic I am I am making parallel mania this a good point I didn't know that until you pointed it out well it gets even further there's this is inception because David wood is mocking Muslim apologist with this so here is a Muslim apologist that David wood is mocking and then the Christian apologists are imitating David wood to you have been destroyed now what's funny is this is because I have inside AIC from a different culture that turned into a fun thing that they're doing now
• 133:00 - 133:30 now they're doing it see how culture works so this is and there's nowhere nowhere does he say we just cited David wood who cited this Muslim guy you had to find that in the sources if you're ignorant and you don't know how things operate culturally or even know this Source like you just said you would not know that's David wood and if I tried to tell you that's David wood good point you would know it you would need to hear them say hey this is David wood I'm imitating now here's a quote and it says this is the exact same problem that apologist face when reading the gospels
• 133:30 - 134:00 and I truly think Dr Jeff trip sums it up really well and this is the text he sent me quote one way devotional readers approach the text is to treat it like it was written for them like they're the intended audience but they usually only know the Old Testament as far as a potential pop culture back ground meaning the only bit of knowledge that the apologists have really know and really immerse themselves with is Old
• 134:00 - 134:30 Testament that's important to understand as background knowledge because only framework they have if you don't know David wood going destroyed then when they do it if you don't know that you will not know where that comes from you might go that's original that's original to them there's no there's no antecedent they never cited anybody they never cited anybody so he goes on and says if you're asking them to consider unfamiliar things like Ides and the reference points for the actual intended readers back then which were the Greeks you're highlighting a difference between
• 134:30 - 135:00 them and the original audience in a sense you're saying this wasn't written for you they will be instinctively resistant as it shows and hostile to this line of reasoning probably at an unconscious level that's why I try to empathize it's tough dealing with what what sounds and we know is false or erroneous it comes across as dishonest so it's easy to go you're lying you're dishonest the other part of me goes you're just deceived and delusionally
• 135:00 - 135:30 stuck in this and I can't help but do that so mind you Dr trip has written extensively just to give more context on the Gospel of John this guy has read it in original Greek he has done deep work re researching The Gospel of John he knows this and so he's he's coming from a scholarly angle I wanted to make that point now let's switch back to the Old Testament because this is an important Point coming from your end uh Neil So at the end of the day even if you can show similarities with Jesus and these
• 135:30 - 136:00 alleged Pagan deities doesn't prove anything we have no evidence that Jesus was being compared to them in the New Testament but even if they were it could just be hey reminds me of that one God I heard about kind of thing but at the end of to day they're quoting the Old Testament they're not quoting Pagan literature and there's no evidence they actually were focusing on that so he does this little slight of hand thing because they're not doing this but even if they did it's just a little bit who cares and then he goes but they're not quoting actually no they're literally quoting from not only not only from the
• 136:00 - 136:30 philosophical side but from Pagan myths itself 100% Titus for example cites epimenides but epimenides itself was citing another source that comes from Greek mythology of media saying cretans are all liars media the witch media is the one who first says are all liars that goes right into Paul's mouth in the New Testament yeah there's a lot of that kind of stuff so I wrote a few things
• 136:30 - 137:00 here just to make the point so that I'm not missing something Scholars have long noted the authors of the gospels would have been in the note of the literature like Homer and Ides when learning to write and read so we need to like background knowledge they would have known this learning how to construct the thing we're reading today it's just they're how they learn how to read it's like saying if I were able to you learned Homer you learned Ides you learned asist that's how you learn how to read and write read and right in the first century this is how they did it back in March I gave this talk here are
• 137:00 - 137:30 my slides from that okay this this is important stuff here so that I want to cover beforehand so one of the points I made is that look if you want to show that Jesus is a copy of pagan deities there are steps that you need to do and this is not me like M moving the goal post this would flow from basic philosophy basic historical methodology so you first need to show there are correlations then you need to show they're not just J Hasty generalization yeah so first things first what he just
• 137:30 - 138:00 said is made up this is not from basic methodology and history he just made up these lists right here we already talked about this earlier in the video Yeah correlations right and he even I think later grants that there's some possible correlations but they're all vague and have no connection right yeah okay so actually specific so to give an example when we look at like Noah in the flood account and we see the flood accounts in Other M in other Mesopotamian literature we go oh okay there's definitely some similarities that are very specific here
• 138:00 - 138:30 that are far more than Hasty generalizations there's probably some literary connection then you need to show the correlations predate Christianity so you need to show they're specific it can't be like oh Dianes did Miracles associated with wine the most common drink in the ancient world uh and uh so you need to do that and you need to show they're pre-christian because the Christians can't copy texts that came later okay just to comment on that Neil you you you see the problem with
• 138:30 - 139:00 this already like he just literally downplayed all of dionan Miracle working with wine as if it's insignificant it's just ubiquitous and there's like I guess to reverse the question wouldn't you ask what other gods are transforming wine and doing miraculous Feats like this and having him lay in at the same day and having him using jugs that are for for for ritual purification I we we hat this out but it's like we have to keep pointing out because he he keeps bringing up this list as if he got it from some sort of some sort of like you
• 139:00 - 139:30 know standard it's like some standard list from somewhere he made this list up remember that and then he does grant you those first four and then it five has nothing to do with the first four if someone can still exist and you can still draw mythology bingo so that's big point I like this and and I think he's setting this up as like a hey if you can meet this expectation but notice you're never going to meet my expectation of what I need in order to be achieved that's what it is he's setting this it's like playing a game it's a cre he created a game out of it
• 139:30 - 140:00 and he's going to create the rules and be the referee and as long as you follow his rules and the impossible rules that he lists then it's fine but it it's it's designed to distance himself from any inspiration or any influence from non-jewish sources well said and you also need to show a CAO link so if you go don't have anything where there's like direct quotations like with the gilgames account and the flood account it's hard to show there's a direct connection if it if you don't actually
• 140:00 - 140:30 have him saying anything so we know for example the New Testament quotes and uses the Old Testament why because they say they're we're citing the scriptures we're referring to the Torah of Moses and what the prophets taught so we can show a CAO link there okay then now Derek doesn't believe Jesus what about in Titus where he cites EP amenities right I mean are you going to start saying that they're citing we know they're citing from pagans after that I mean you just kind of locked yourself in there that's why your clip over there in
• 140:30 - 141:00 the Homer the whole the Old Testament and stuff like that like he's he almost is backing himself into a corner and then when you do point the evidence what will he say well it's only that one spot it's only in the places where we know that he's quoting and it's like oh okay well we'll get to that was a total myth but he thinks a lot of the stories about Jesus are legendary so then he would need to show that they are actually legendary and that that's an important step because even if you can fulfill steps one to four you still can't get step five okay let me ask you a question you this is so important would I need to
• 141:00 - 141:30 work overtime to show something as Legend when every example around it that you don't accept literally happen and believe is what happened from wine miracles to resurrections you covered Horus Osiris Addis I mean bro the list goes on on what you and what we've been discovering over these years would I need to then like show and somehow prove the floating into the cloud or virgin birth or any of that is legend or is it really somehow on their side to try and prove that that Legend didn't happen
• 141:30 - 142:00 it's on their side to to to prove that this happened that this happened um but not only that you can have people who literally exist who are real people Caesar Augustus Alexander the Great myth rtis I'll give you some examples I'll put my mou methodes was born with the star in the east signifying a king would be born from a source from the 150s BCE you have with with Alexander the Great clear you have all this mythology him doing all types of Miracles and uh
• 142:00 - 142:30 becoming the Son of God having a miraculous birth do we think that stuff happened no but Alexander existed so it doesn't matter you and the same with Caesar Augustus doing the same stuff having a signify star in the east he appeared to people on Roman roads after they were dead showed up and gave instruction to people on roads even posted gospel around Evangelion we have all this parallel stuff with him he existed he did all this miraculous stuff Titus Caesar uh healed a lame man's arm
• 142:30 - 143:00 and made us made a Blind Man's SE by spitting in his eye do I need to prove that Augustus is legendary that that Alexander's legendary that aalon say tyana is legendary no okay so then why they're real people with legends about them right it's just this is just how this is just how mythology and legends George Washington never told a lie that's mythology didge Washington not exist now because and I point this out in the end of the talk which dere didn't link we see real life events commonly linked to mythology like look at how
• 143:00 - 143:30 they took said well it's like just like Camelot okay we do this today with saying thing like he's got a midest touch or she's a modern day Robin Hood or a modern day Sherlock Holmes proving our Point yeah he just proved our point dides he realize what he just said is exactly what what we're saying right I mean look if he said she's a she's a modern-day Robin Hood do you literally think she's a Robin Hood and did everything Robin Hood has said in the account to have done no you would have
• 143:30 - 144:00 she's helping out the poor and you have you and I have said that Jesus if he existed which we think he did most likely we can't prove that he did can't prove that he didn't certainly I think it's more likely that he did exist of course is it possible that people who wrote the gospels remember things in his life that reminded them about these myths yes it could that's what I said I'm fine with that how can you know we just don't know the degree of that how do you know what is yeah we don't know the degree of that so it's you can only speculate on what he really did versus
• 144:00 - 144:30 what is being written about him as Legend but I'm fine with the I'm fine with people saying he must have did something that reminded him of that right sure you're we're on we're on good terms there bingo this is he brought up Midas Touch he brought up Robin Hood he brought up these examples and in my mind it's like you do know that these real life actual modern day people didn't do those actual like nothing fantastic they're just saying wow what a great guy like you might even say dude he fought like Hercules Napoleon was called Apollo they they depict they drew pictures of
• 144:30 - 145:00 they had paintings in the 18th century or actually early 19th century of Napoleon drawing a chariot with a sun behind his head as Apollo did he actually do that he didn't ride in the Clouds of course of course but that's what they depicted him as why they might have saw him on a on a on a horse yeah they might have saw him a horse with his with his battle gear on and then they it reminded him of Apollo and then they made him into a really Apollo which didn't actually happen that way that's more likely what happened with Jesus
• 145:00 - 145:30 child prodigy just like Alexander the Great you have the Virgin birth so technically using his own logic we could go back to the historical Jesus and say if we grant that there's a guy we can go back to him and go well he was a really charismatic important person to this group of people virgin birth they're just obviously embellishing that Prodigy Alex 90% of normal Scholars are saying exactly exactly and it's just not Gary habermass are the guys that he likes nope that uh Robert Price goes through
• 145:30 - 146:00 the gospels and shows how they're drawing from various Old Testament texts but Contra price that doesn't mean that they just went through the Old Testament and said all right let's take this one and let's take this one and let's take this one it's far more likely they had a life and a story of Jesus in front of them and they said you know what that reminds me of Exodus 18 right oh you know that reminds me of Jonah one cuz there's no pattern here other than the life of Jesus they're just drawing incredibly randomly from the old test I I don't I don't know if I agree with
• 146:00 - 146:30 this and plus plus to make to in order to be a messiah you have to fulfill the Old Testament so they're they're going to be drawing from the Old Testament more than was actually there yeah that's that's that's that's well easily established this is kind of his subjective opinion right where he's like okay I think they had the life of Jesus and then they saw things and then they connected to the Old Testament to say he fulfilled these things which he probably literally believes he really fulfilled those things whereas you and me would probably reverse that role and suggest they might not saying a real they might
• 146:30 - 147:00 have had sayings of Jesus in The Gospel times this is decades later this is a long time past and so if you're going to craft your Messiah you're going to craft your hero why wouldn't you use models of that and when I read about these things in the in the Gospels it sounds more like a story being written rather than here's the mundane biography of a little old dude dud this isn't FUSD Rec it's not going to get anybody to follow your cause no no from the Old Testament and we know ancient authors did this like Rihanna Nash says tacitus embodied such
• 147:00 - 147:30 points in the very language which he used and he uses linguistic Echoes and structural similarities Yan Bremer and uh notice how he brings up veras but doesn't talk about the actual Titus Caesar making blind people see and making their arms SC back like because that's too close he doesn't want to say that now does he it's amazing he brings up tacitus and of course we know suoni with Augustus and so much stuff and Virgil on the screen right now and Virgil who's drawing from Homer who
• 147:30 - 148:00 writes the anid who has characters from Homer right who talks about the end of the Trojan War which is from Homer right completely drawing from Homer in a different language Latin it's no it's no longer Greek now does he ever cite Homer never not even once in his writings does he ever mention Homer but we all know he's drawing from home we all know so this is interesting on the screen he has embed such points in the very language which he uses and uses linguistic Echoes
• 148:00 - 148:30 and structural similarities well what do you think Dennis McDonald's do doing in all of his work he finds the verbal now he can say it it's true right it's amazing it's amazing how his his worldview Michael Jones's entire worldview will shift when he needs a point to be on his side now all of a sudden Jesus is a thing in his world now he likes linguistic Echoes and structural similarities because he's trying to make a point about Jesus in the Old Testament but if we about Jesus in the B guye all of a sudden no that's
• 148:30 - 149:00 not a thing that's not real good point good point and your point about Virgil again echoing that again is to say he doesn't mention Homer there's no I'm doing this Homer thing everyone knew that when you're reading this original is from Homer they know this so the only I will grant the characters of the New Testament are not they're in a Jewish context so it's not as easy for someone especially not learn it on Homer or verities to catch these signals and if
• 149:00 - 149:30 you don't know the language but when you see the signals and the linguistic overlap and you start to recognize tropes and themes that are clearly there at least I I beg of people like Jones to at least recognize that there are peppering Illusions to this give the minimum of cultural illusion of Mythos being painted onto Jesus if you could do that Bravo if you can't do that I don't know how to help you at the end of the day though you can go the step further and say Dennis McDonald which is the literary and I I like to play with that
• 149:30 - 150:00 uh and Nicholas horseall note Virgil borrowed from Ro Roman Legends to paint the current event of his days Bruce Molina and Richard rball say to be able to quote the tradition from memory to apply it in Creative or appropriate ways not only brings honor to the speaker but lends authority to his words as well Luke 1 is an example it is stitched together from phrases of Psalms 41 111 132 105 106 Micah 7 the ability to create out such a mosaic implied extensive detailed knowledge of the
• 150:00 - 150:30 tradition brought great honor to the speaker able to pull it off so once again Mimis and drawing parallels and drawing from from Otis of the Old Testament fair game but remember who the audience of the gospels are it's the Gentile world so what if you're going to so this exact same point applies not only brings honor to the speaker but lends authority to his words as well if I'm a gospel author and I'm writing John writing to people who are in dionan groups Aphrodite Aphrodite groups Addis
• 150:30 - 151:00 groups uh worshippers of Athena worshippers of CPUs I'm going to speak to them and try to draw and try to capture their hearts and Minds using imagery that they love Clement of Alexandria does this in his protrepticus where he sort of flips the dionan on its head and makes the manads into disciples and says that orpheus's song is Jesus's song singing the new song of Salvation or he says that sasus is a counter sign sabazius being in the bosom of the father is a counter sign to the mysteries of Christ because sasus is
• 151:00 - 151:30 dianis and Zeus as as a godhead so you see them using imagery to to get to the people in the Greco Roman world right but this is another example of that for the Jewish world and this is Jones would even jump on those Church Father Illusions probably to say they're trying to win out the Gentile world what do you think New Testament is doing Bingo the important Point here is that like even if like Derrik is right and they are like they the gospel authors are so like
• 151:30 - 152:00 influenced by Dianes that doesn't mean anything Jesus did is a myth they could just be like you know Jesus turned water into wine we should parallel that to a dianis account to show how much better he was none of that would mean this is a myth so going back to my point that like even if you can get steps one two three and four you still don't actually get step five in this case showing Jesus is legendary so so I'm surprised that he's that fundamentalist that he thinks the water and the wine thing actually happened interesting whatever man
• 152:00 - 152:30 talking d i I have conversations with John Dominic crosson and others uh uh um D SE Allis and Jr who don't necessarily think that these Miracles happened but they're written in a way to sort of glorify his name and say he was a great person right so like the fact that he's like Jesus probably turned water to wine and then that to them and Dy in Isis it's so backwards it's so backwards you literally are making a point John Dominic crosson is viewing Jesus kind of like the JFK and camela example that Jones gave or he has a Midas Touch or
• 152:30 - 153:00 she's a modern day Robin Hood he is looking at him as a moral example of a great moral teacher that has something to to provide for him um that's I would say an accurate approach if you're going to see Jesus in light of these things instead of saying this miracle happened oh but dianis Miracles those didn't happen is Jones saying that dianis miracles happen if he is at least he's opening up the door and being consistent in spirituality and the openness of like I believe in the miraculous if he's saying they didn't happen but then he's
• 153:00 - 153:30 saying Jesus is did which he's kind of indicated that with the Titan and Titanic kind of analogy which falls apart and I have a video coming on that like it's just not consistent it's just not consistent so he wants one through four he's willing to Grant five we don't care about because we're not even drawing that Jesus didn't exist but he wants to equate it with legend that we have to prove its Legend come on man do I have to prove it is interesting that he's granting you one through four and that's all you're claiming to begin with you never claimed five so that's like a win for you dude yeah but he could almost end it there
• 153:30 - 154:00 I'm just kidding but I'm just saying that he literally has handed you the W by saying that well he I think tries to backpedal and say I'll only Grant him one later I think he mentions this in the video so I just want a few notes on this again you brought up an example of media and the cretans are always Liars well this is the difficulty Scholars have long noted the authors of the gospels would have been in the know of the literature like Homer we talked about that but I know the only way Jones will bite on number four which is the key in my opinion to get that transition
• 154:00 - 154:30 of causal link he needs a hi thus saith the prophet Isaiah you know who to open up now to the prophet Isaiah thus say Jonah thus say like they need those steps well yeah because the Gentiles don't know those texts dingo they know about Ides they know about esus they know about Homer they don't know Isaiah by the way if you if you need any more proof If you need proof of this am I just making this up no because St
• 154:30 - 155:00 um St John chrysis stum in the sixth Century you know what he's complaining about what these people in Constantinople they love to go to watch the tragedies they know every word of your rities they know every word of Homer but when I try to get them to recite Psalms they have no idea yeah yeah that's in the six Century that's in that's when Christianity is that's when Christianity is thriving they know it's and even in the sixth Century they're still fans of Homer they're still going to watch the the the
• 155:00 - 155:30 plays they're still going to watch the the uh the the chariot races they love their ancient Pagan Roots but this is we're talking about in the first late first early 2nd Century you think they know Isaiah and Philippi you think they know about about Jonah and in pergamum no absolutely not there just solves that for mic drop absolutely and I've had Scholars come on who are Pauline academics and I'll I'll I can put them on the screen here for you that have actually pointed out that even Paul's
• 155:30 - 156:00 audience which they get into Paul's letters Paul's audience doesn't know scripture and the way that Paul does things with his scriptural you know arguments and trying to make cases like anyone who was reading that material would have caught him and go dude that's not what it says however I want to give examples some clear explicit ones that we're not talking about Illusions or mimesis where they're not going to buy it without the clear hi I'm advertising but these are important ones that anyone would have known and you can actually check these yourself we can go out of
• 156:00 - 156:30 the rabbit TR New Testament Greek text Paul's syncretism right we talked about for in him we live we move and have our being which is um epines of cre which is borrowing from the media myth right okay now we have arates of suy this is all in act 17 for those who don't know from the 3r century BC These Are pagan writings your own poets have said Paul says we are his offspring talking about Zeus so that brings to mind so he's citing a pagan author which you said he doesn't do the New Testament citing the yeah it's just you it's he says things that
• 156:30 - 157:00 are objectively not even like his opinion is off he's objectively being wrong about this stuff it's so clear so obvious it brings to mind the author share a shared Heritage deep into the past with statements about Zeus and Yahweh we got into yahwism with Gad Bara we could look to Titus 1112 you brought this prons are always Liars we could turn to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:33 where he says Bad Company corrupts good character that's a quote this is a direct quotation from a Greek playwright menander's comedy this take 1 Timothy
• 157:00 - 157:30 613 a God who gives life to all in quote this is cathan's hymn to Zeus this stoic hymn Praises Zeus as the source of life and Order Concepts echoed in early Christian descriptions of God as the giver and sustainer of life there are so many philosophical and even mythical Illusions such as the people of Lyra mistake Paul and Barnabas for Hermes and Zeus in Acts a story reflecting Greco Roman myths where Gods visited Mortals in Disguise very much like avid's
• 157:30 - 158:00 Metamorphosis the phrase it is hard to kick against the Gos in Acts 26:14 is widely beli ri's Bakke eye and he he was asking he literally said they're not quoting from ripes baky he literally says that in this video of course and he's wrong he'll find a scholar who will go uh it's an illusion or common phraseology culturally I don't care you doesn't matter it's still from ureides but that that's just that's one of those things that like it's kind of a question
• 158:00 - 158:30 begging fallacy because it's in the reason why it's a it's a common phraseology is because of Ides you're just reiterating what I said in different words it's so contextually relevant too because kicking against the goats for those who don't know the viewer might not know what that even means right it refers to an Ox resisting its driver by kicking against the sharp stick to prod It Forward such resistance only harms the ox itself right this image symbolizes futile Rebellion
• 158:30 - 159:00 against the higher power an idea that is fitting for both Ides is context pentheus resistance to dianis and Paul's context and acts his persecution of Christians and the Jewish uh persecution of Christians in opposition even the word hypocrite itself is comes from the Greek playw writers because the hippoc HPP uh hippoc is a someone who puts on a mask and pretends they something else so but for them using that word to come out of Jesus's mouth he either definitely didn't say that or if he did say that he
• 159:00 - 159:30 was very hellenized yep because he there was there is a theater over there so maybe he did say it I'm just saying absolutely no no no this is this is why I love doing this stuff with you because we're gonna go we're gonna look we're g to try and connect dots that may not be there that's okay it's not a sin ladies and gentlemen to attempt to think and flex your mind and try to use those pattern recognition skills that we've all been given to see they speak Greek they're writing a Greek it's a shared culture a shared language it's shared
• 159:30 - 160:00 location geographically there is Hellenism everyone's been tainted or if you will influenced by it why aren't we at least making attempts to do so why are we isolating with that kind of well this is Jewish and only Jewish did you not know the Jews were already fully hellenized by this period it's important do that Neil I'll tell you this I have way too much material for this video so forgive me Jones if I don't thoroughly exhaust encyclopedia knowledge on everybody to give all the concrete evidence but I'm just going to go
• 160:00 - 160:30 through I think this is important just the diania uh the Dian gospel outline not the the arguments because Neil will be here all night okay these are the parallels that are drawn between John's gospel through Dennis McDonald's work and yeah he's the one bringing up Amis for the Old Testament so why not we might as well so and you can cut me off and comment as you go okay Gospel of John 1 1-5 origin of the logos right we know that this is the Divine word Ides
• 160:30 - 161:00 baky I'm not even going to mention the baky I want to say get the book okay but I'm G just mention right the witness to the Divine John 1 through or Gospel of John 1 6-8 rejection of the Divine that came to his own his own did not receive him both Stories the Divine taking human form obvious Divine in intimacy and connection the Father the Son is in the lap of the father same word yeah exact same Greek word you want linguistic connections read Dennis McDonald's work
• 161:00 - 161:30 I'm planning on learning Greek Neil's been pushing me and I know I've been kicking like kicking against the go kicking against the go so here we are right um multiplicity of divine titles they're titled bakus and this and that and savior Messiah and Son of God and logos um Miracle of transformation which we know the changing of water into wine golly this is such a biggie this is such a biggie and by the way they always want to go oh it's just wine it's a ubiquitous thing so here's a Samaritan woman in the wilderness who's thirsting
• 161:30 - 162:00 and there's a minad in the wilderness and her thirst strikes The Rock no wonder why Herod just thought dionisis was the god of the uh Levant he thought that's what he thought he thought the only Gods worship was Aphrodite and dionisis which a lot of people think is Yahweh and Asher so this it's so much over overlap again cleansing the temple avenging The Father's House renewal through Divine interaction an old man seeks Rejuvenation so Jesus finds a w a man who cannot walk 37 years of age he
• 162:00 - 162:30 heals him permanently whereas dianis temporarily through wine makes him drunk so he doesn't feel any pain and he feels young again and he starts to dance okay the exaltation of the Divine the Son of God must increase this is exactly what when you get into the Cadmus account in ues he is also introduced as like the vine he's like the foilage of the vine but not the True Vine right and that's how that's and then then John John the Baptist he's
• 162:30 - 163:00 like the light but not the True Light Bingo I'm glad you're picking up on this easily and uh you've read his book too so cheating a little bit you know offering life through water again that's that woman account that talks about the donor of Living Water and he knows she's promiscuous well guess what the accusation of the mads are in the in baky they've gone and they've made they've worked in other men's beds to please other men that they are sexual well she goes I have no husband he goes you're right you have five husbands and the one you're with now dude it's so
• 163:00 - 163:30 awesome when you see this yeah that's why like I don't care what the apologists do at the end of the day man y'all want to stay stuck in your little hole and do your little thing and and get you know I love the Bible and you're not going to take that from me right just saying I think we like it better than they do I I don't we uh so healing Miracles the healings of the royal off official son renewal and healing and old [ __ ] walks again this is another account Union with the Divine through consumption eating the Flesh of the Son of God I almost want to read that section but uh we don't have time it's
• 163:30 - 164:00 we we already touched on it too though we've already touched on it yeah Divine elusiveness Jesus escapes arrest do I need to explain how dianis escaped I might need to the audience doesn't know this while he tried to make me look crazy we might as well comment on this but it gets into a video later that goes into the plates and the the stuff like that I'm going to stop there and just say there's like 15 more on the screen for them to see it yeah you pause it and read it you see all of this pause it read it and read the book bu the book yeah so I go in and wasted a lot of time
• 164:00 - 164:30 prepping for this video to give even thorough arguments in each of these examples and uh Neil's looking at me like uh dude you're crazy and I am a little crazy and I'm okay with that no that's a good point though because Dennis really does show this with good methodology and he's one he's more resistant to parallels than you you and me I know which is funny because he's the one writing this book but then we come to him all the time and Dennis what you think about this no that's too much like he's very careful very resistant it's very hard to get him to think that there's a parallel but does Dennis even
• 164:30 - 165:00 believe every connection he made is the case no he just says look this is here it's possible yeah he just wants he just wants people to notice that there's there's stuff possible things here that's it he's not dogmatic he said they have something they um so Dennis McDonald explains Mimis they have something they like to say they look for types that are successful and promising and whether they want their reader to recognize it or hide it for them to discover themselves so sometimes they advertise which is the problem with the Olaf Sanz and uh Margaret Mitchell's uh critique of Dennis McDonald they expect
• 165:00 - 165:30 mimesis to only be advertised whereas Dennis says no no no no no often times and Tim Whit Marsh agrees with Dennis McDonald on this they would oftentimes kind of make you the they do not that's not that's it's not what Virgil is doing right so Virgil's the prime example of Mimis and drawing from Homer never mentions Homer doesn't mention so whoever said that is just objectively wrong I think everyone knows it's pretty obvious and it may not be as obvious here for some but when you're dealing with this this so much man sometimes they advertise it sometimes they
• 165:30 - 166:00 disguise it in an Inova Innovative and creative way they will syncretize or parallel The Narrative often differing the narratives so first choice for model for the narrative create the reader uh create uh something to with a number of similarities right which is the glue holding the synchros so the synch showing similarities then capitalizes on the differences it's complex but that's how they wrote back then and if you did carbon copy plagiarism or these copycat identical things that they expect to be
• 166:00 - 166:30 the case if mimesis is happening um then or some form of it that they're trying to like strawman us with Zeitgeist that would not work an ancient reader would read this and go this is bunk we could go read the original Source when you do something unique and different that's what makes that text stand out and makes it really why the gospels are so creative and great so a couple more things he says he calls it philological fundamentalism is what the apologists are do are doing you need to have a
• 166:30 - 167:00 number of certain words as direct imitation almost verbatim to be persuaded with a citation on it with a citation I borrow this from Ides that's this is not how culture works this is not at all that's why I turned it to Michael Jones what criteria are you asking for in order to make a cause I just watched a music video the other day um Lil Dicky where he jumps he comes in the room with a with a with a joker mask on yeah he's being the Joker never in the video does he stop and go I'm the Joker from Batman from from 1945 from
• 167:00 - 167:30 the from the from the comic book that came out in that day no you can see the Joker you know it's the Joker there's nothing that needs to be said bingo so I I wrote a little funny thing where I like uh it sounds like your criteria is so restrictive that it would rule out countless other accounts that the scholars have long notied between those narratives and the ancient canonical examples like Homer Ides Etc excluding them since they don't flat out talk about what you said with Virgil hi I'm
• 167:30 - 168:00 borrowing from Homer or Ides to write this story example did you know that joose sephus frequently imitates hom homeric poetry though he never says what everyone does that's what he's doing not surprised at all he isn't even advertising them several Scholars have long noticed this and Doc mented this he paraphrases the Bible and Antiquities and in some places even uses Homer to fill the Gap sometimes sometimes even word affinities if you expect a vivid
• 168:00 - 168:30 advertisement rather than illusion or Affinity to the likely literary model then no classicist will buy your criteria you've ruled out every classicist in the field they will not buy your criteria your one through four or five is bunk it is it's completely it's a straw man to begin with the coffin closed academics such as Dennis McDonald point out that the New Testament needed to advertise the scriptures why you said it earlier why do they need to say Isaiah has written or thus it is written why do they do
• 168:30 - 169:00 that because the the a the Gentile audience is not familiar with the scriptures they want to be heard they want to be told when it's when it's a prophecy they want to know and it also it really really gives it the Messianic Authority when you say thus it was written so that's not going to happen with the Gentile stuff it's just not going to happen that way no and that's a powerful Point as Hegel said he pretty much says is the air they breathed which I know he's more of a modern philosopher but pseudo heraclitus said in the first century ad contempor to Mark Luke that
• 169:00 - 169:30 Homer they nurtured on it from Cradle to grave in the catalog of literary papi in Egypt 200 BC to 200 ad we have five fragments or six fragments of the lxx and we have over 600 of Homer Dennis says you tell me what book The Reader of the Gospel of John would have had accessible Alex sex or S Homer or even PL and also on top of that in the Dead Sea not the Dead Sea Scrolls in Mada which is considered to be part of the Dead Sea uh it's you know from the same contemporary World they find Virgil and
• 169:30 - 170:00 Plato and Homer manuscripts there they're in with with the Old Testament yeah down in the Dead Sea World among these old ancient Hebrew manuscripts and Aramaic manuscripts there's Greek and there's Latin there's Virgil and there's Plato right there the same sources that you and and arguing that they're drawing from right they're in their hands being copied from them same with uh the the the the nagati Scrolls you find you find zor asrian texts by the way he said it's
• 170:00 - 170:30 the zenes is third Century well guess what among the among these early Christian second century some of them even yeah second we say second century text yeah among these texts you find fragments of Plato's Republic so that's one of them and another one is a text called esus which is a hermetic Hermes trisic speaking to a sleepus that's found among early Christian groups uh Z
• 170:30 - 171:00 the the text called zanos which is A zoroastrian Treatise uh of the grandfather of zoraster Zoros among early Christian uh uh groups and last but not least the one that really got me kind of blows my mind a little bit is the sentences of sexist the Pythagorean so they have Pythagorean philosophy in these in Pythagorean philosophy Plato zanos zor asrian hermetic esus text
• 171:00 - 171:30 among the early Christian the earliest oldest Christian manuscripts we have you find those among them why what does that tell you yeah because this is a gentile world this is what they read exactly and they're also modeling their philosophy which you're highly influenced off of in that world and platonic and then like like I said even if you want to say those are Heretics you still have to explain why and missada among these Hebrew Old Testament manuscripts do we find Plato and Virgil yeah Latin and
• 171:30 - 172:00 Greek I mean there's so much here so I have a little bit of a long section here on Richard C Miller Miller's been he kills it he needs we need to shout him from the rooftops this guy needs it I mean we're always going to do it for Dennis but like Richard his book is DSE and super super intelligent and really well done so he Nails this for number four in my opinion and and this is so closely to the Jesus story that I want
• 172:00 - 172:30 you to comment on it so his book is resurrection and reception in early Christianity and he has a section called excurses Arch typal mimesis and Matthew's Divine birth myth and he says forgive us in advance for this technical excellent very very brilliant piece but it's very important you pay attention ion as a subset of the larger rubric arpal memesis fictive archetypal embellishment particularly regard to the Divine birth and divine translation often function to embroider the beginning and endings of a biographic
• 172:30 - 173:00 narrative so at the beginning and end of a life they they would embellish okay tacitly invoking these same powerful associations perhaps the most Vivid manner to describe such literary phenomena is by way of example in a propose excurses allows for the application and observation of the methodologies here in proposed namely a look into the archetypal patterns applied to the Divine birth myth found in the gospel of Matthew it is indeed striking that the Romans have composed most every extent ancient source on the life of Alexander the Great from the
• 173:00 - 173:30 time of cpio Africanus through the late ancient Emperors the the textualization of Alexander served to calibrate Roman imperialism Roman Imperial cult and the narrative in biographies of these Emperors just as previously discussed each great general or Emperor measured himself against Alexander seeking through propaganda and imitatio to match his achievements while avoiding his degeneracy they don't want to look bad like him okay yeah that's the old that's
• 173:30 - 174:00 the old homeric way by the way Alexander according to aristole kept a book an an ill um a a Homer's Iliad copy that was handwritten by Aristotle with commentary by Aristotle in the in the margins he was it was given to Alexander for his campaigns in the East and he slept with it under his pillow so he's a homeric minded guy but you're right later on people are still want to borrow from him and draw from him but they want to do it in a more we don't be drunk more middle
• 174:00 - 174:30 platonic stoic way not the homeric way exactly Alexander's Legacy had so H had so determined helenistic governance in the Levon and Egypt that all aspiring rulers of the region were invariably measured by the looming stature and strategic disposition of the man Matthew's Divine King affords no exception classicists have typically neglected the I love this part neglected the details of this phenomenon instead interrogating the ancient sources with
• 174:30 - 175:00 the pointed hope that the historical Alexander would eventually show himself sound familiar while as with the Quest for the historical Jesus such an Enterprise may appear quite worthy and alluring Scholars of both spheres have often overlooked the promise that these narratives hold for enriching or our understanding of the context in which and for which they were produced in both cases Jesus and Alexander readers Endeavor to see beyond the Mythic figure to some flesh and blood person all the
• 175:00 - 175:30 while failing to note that such text deliberately favored the myth to the real and for good reason the conscription of these cultural political icons served the pressing social needs of later context to such a degree that any historical person becomes elusive perhaps even relevant What mattered was the fabulation that is how the textualized mythologized Jesus or Alexander functioned culturally socially and politically while this is certainly the case with our extent sources for
• 175:30 - 176:00 Alexander it becomes all the more visible with the charged myopic myopic myopic I can't even pronounce it um Renditions of Jesus in the early Christian literary production Plutarch and Aran serve as the Two Chief sources for Alexander the Great plutarch's Vita Alexander a work precisely contemporist with Matthew's final redaction displays the following birth narrative for the king and it goes in this is the narrative that Alexander with regard to his lineage on his father's side was a
• 176:00 - 176:30 descendant of Heracles through karanis and on his mother's side was a descendant of aus AE a c Aus Aus through neop neus is among those things entirely trusted and it is said that Philip after being initiated into the mysteries on samtha together with Olympus told you they're married there and Sam I've been talking about that forever you have Bro you've been hitting this so hard for a while and while he was but a youth and an orphan fell in love with her and so
• 176:30 - 177:00 betrothed her having persuaded her brother arus then the night before they were to consumate the marriage the bride thought while there was lightning that a thunderbolt had fallen upon her womb from the blow a fire was ignited thereby as it broke into flames the fire scattered and in all directions this is exactly what happened with Augustus later later with the wedding Philip saw himself in a dream placing a signant impression on his wife's womb the emblem of the signant as it seemed had the image of a lion while the other emblem
• 177:00 - 177:30 of the signant sorry while the other divers were distrusting the vision namely that they needed a more careful guard for Phillip of those who attended the wedding ER arander of Telos said that she conceived a man for nothing seals those things that are empty and that she conceived a child who was courageous and as a lion by Nature there then appeared a serpent as Olympus slept stretched out alongside her body they say that this most of the of all quenched Philip's love and fondness for
• 177:30 - 178:00 her such that with her he did not have often have sexual relations as they lay with her either because he feared and I'm probably misreading that because I don't think he had sexual relations while she was pregnant but anyway it could be just not often um anyway so he goes avoid intercourse and since she was joined to one greater than himself look at the similarities between Alexander and and Matthew a parental genealogical description placed at the beginning aimed at signifying the respective hero VI an established pedigree a betr
• 178:00 - 178:30 juvenile couple who are in love the interruption by the deity of the wedding betrothal process impregnating the bride through his signature principal element namely Zeus's Thunderbolt or fire or yahweh's sacred wind Puma the virginal conception and birth of the hero child the surrogate father asains from sexual relations until the womb is opened through the birth of the child namely the break of the seal drama over the sexual Fidelity of the B of the bride and legitimacy of the conception a distrust of the woman's account of the
• 178:30 - 179:00 child's conception precipitating the need for the groom's Divine dream thus restoring confidence in the bride story a prophetic description of the child given in the groom's dream establishing Supreme expectation regarding the destiny of the child a later association with magic though perhaps applied differently also resembling Matthew's Magi orientala cisero in the 1st Century BC provided the following Legend also available in plutar in Alexander 3.3 on the same night when Diana's
• 179:00 - 179:30 Temple at Ephesus was burned it coincided that Alexander was born from Olympus and when the daylight had come Magi cried out that the prior night there had been born the plague and demise of Asia the true story preceded uh provided preceded for Matthew's account offering an addition cue for the reader casting the protagonist as Alexander's mimic successor Matthew's parthan Sorcerers moreover helped to expand the religio cultural appeal of
• 179:30 - 180:00 the praise hero thus reflecting the broadening program of Matthew's community in the Levant both Olympus and Alexander's hired protagonist historiographer cistin assisted with the political mythology and it goes on into August dude there's so you can see the birth narratives as I mentioned you have have this a similar Trope happening with Augustus where there's a star in the sky and the Senate has to kill all the babies because they don't want a king to be born same thing with myth rattis star in the sky signifying a king will be
• 180:00 - 180:30 born he's going to unite the world he's got he's got a a there a grand genealogy there like in Matthew where uh it's it explains how myth rasis is both born of from Cyrus but also on the Greek side to Alexander so he's a Super King guy so you the tropes are all there it's it's worth noting too in The Iliad Ides and Sophocles the cult the group of the god of dionis and his followers are persecuted this is exactly the trend we
• 180:30 - 181:00 find in the New Testament with are you kidding me people are persecuted that that's exactly the same thing no that's generally the same thing many groups were persecuted I therefore invented I I mean like logical leap what oh no like that that yeah I mean I if you're gonna argue against Luke then then this would be my advice to atheists
• 181:00 - 181:30 or whatever like do it the oldfashioned BART man way and just say like Luke has some sloppiness and he contradicts himself at points and he he he makes historical blunders here and there which I don't think any of those things are true but like you know like like actually argue against the historicity of luk not just there's persecution therefore this must be obvious coping from other myths it's just like I mean I hope that's just one tiny part the tiniest of tiny Parts in a cumulative
• 181:30 - 182:00 case but even then it's so weak that it's not worth bringing up yeah it's like it's like saying Confucius had disciples PL Socrates had disciples this is exactly the same thing it'd be like yeah teachers tend to have disciples that doesn't mean there's an actual caal link here there's got to be more going on but here here's here's another example and bringing joy and Life to all who follow him dionis is more than just the god of wine he is a force of
• 182:00 - 182:30 transformation vitality and communal ecstasy this transformation power later becomes pneumatic or pneumatic or spiritual transformation his worshippers experienced this when they were filled by his Spirit through communion with the deity just like Jesus later possesses his followers by the spirit okay having some form of ecstasy or possessed by the spirit again very
• 182:30 - 183:00 common in any religious tradition I I I don't know of any religious tradition that wouldn't have something like that well I guess the sufis were just copying from dianis you know because absolutely they uh ecstasy and and uh definitely the Pentecostals are really high on dianis can confirm so Jewish mythicists involved in the cabala uh there's one the amedes as well uh I mean the seeks we can just do that as well I mean it's just everyone must be
• 183:00 - 183:30 copying that it's come on these Guy this is what I mean about these being too General the first thing that I noticed is that he's kind of taking you out of context because if you watch the video up until that point you're talking about ding easy in any way and you're throwing you're throwing out that look culture Al they were very similar in how they were perceived by people which is kind of a big deal the dians were relegated to the outcast of society especially in Rome in 186 BCE you have that decree by the
• 183:30 - 184:00 Roman senate that outlawed dionan worship um and they were relegated out to the Wilderness where they lived as basically like like like like orgastic monks if you will because they were like that's how like the desert fathers lived in their early church days they lived out in the wilderness and they sort of dropped out of society well that's what the dians were doing you were pointing this out on top of all the parallels that you were already bringing so to separate that up from what you were doing is a little bit taking you out of context it's it's it's really taking me out of context no because first of all I
• 184:00 - 184:30 was giving General parallels that is my point because what we're dealing with is there's more it's a cumulative case there's so much more and then the pneumatic Spirit thing was actually a really good point because you only find that with two different groups daian and Christian the idea that groups can get this Spirit of talking speaking in tongues and losing yourself and having Divine Mania that is only found in dionan and chrisan groups so he totally missed the point on that one without a doubt I mean this is a big problem I
• 184:30 - 185:00 think he he's not read up so first of all I mentioned the source in the video but again like the Clement Source he probably missed it and didn't realize Mark WG sty who wrote a book called John as Storyteller narrative criticism something like this we are starting on he's on Jupiter and I'm on Earth he's approaching these gospels as if they are literal historical this is what happened biography and it's like you're reading the actual history of what took place on Wednesday at 5:00 p.m. like that kind of
• 185:00 - 185:30 thing he is not approaching this as literary he is approaching this as almost eyewitness this is what happened I am looking at this and going hm this looks to be how does the omniscient author know this what are some of the tropes and themes that are literary tropes we find within other writings that are fictitious or somewhat semi fictitious and historical I am approaching this with these tools he's approaching with this it happened he rose we would assault on Sunday hallelujah praise you Jesus I'm going no no no no no hold on why is it that there
• 185:30 - 186:00 are themes and tropes and elements that are Mythic and fictional he takes the legend or myth and makes it history so Mark WG sty says the Gospel of John is a tragedy well if I asked you Neil you know this what is one of the Great greatest tragedies ever in the Known World riid bkey okay especially or even or even Asus the first tragedy on record is asus's Prometheus bound tragedy okay and
• 186:00 - 186:30 where where you literally have a God Son of God sacrificing himself and being chained up in a rocky cruciform style and so like there even even even other tragedies you can almost see where Christ is drawing from dude he quotes so many scholars in this book and there's no way it's not fair that I have to edit a 5H hour video to cover everything exhaustively and bore you to death within details my goal with these videos to inspire to go look at the primary sources to go read the scholarship but he goes into the scholars who show it's
• 186:30 - 187:00 also tragedy they agree the ones who have contention he shoots it down and argues Odus they go well tragedies don't end on a positive note have you read Odus some of them do some of them do he so once you know this is a tragedy and prometheus's Trilogy does sort of on a positive note he gets Unchained he's free the last the last of the trilogy is Prometheus unboned right so it so that so they can have that's just wrong but even Sophocles right this is another one Sophocles what's he do he tells the persecution Narrative of lerus which is
• 187:00 - 187:30 the one from The Iliad the one that's a pentheus is in ureides which is not in The Iliad so you have multiple uh tragedian Mythos about dionis and his followers being persecuted here's the thing in history did dionis col ever get persecuted yeah yes but in myth did diis cult get persecuted yes so you mean to tell me both in myth and history they were persecuted right so is it not likely that Christians may have been persecuted but also wrote narrative
• 187:30 - 188:00 stories that are became cool thing to be persecuted by the by this by the order like Socrates was persecuted and theopus was persecuted Aristotle was persecuted all the great thinkers were persecuted that became the thing that everyone wanted to be even today even today you see you see people who really want to like oh I'm I had a worse life than you did I'm more persecuted than you are of course I identify as this that's a thing in the modern world too it's thing in the ancient world okay
• 188:00 - 188:30 so we know that Scholars have long noted acts 17 that Paul is a new Socrates we can go into Jesus to that's a whole another thing we don't have time to get into all of it but he's a new Socrates he's in the very place that Socrates got into trouble at the difference is Socrates ended up going to his death Paul stays alive bit longer and gets imprisoned later but here's the thing if I asked you were probably Christians locked up and imprisoned yeah okay now if I asked you were prisons locked up in
• 188:30 - 189:00 were were Christians locked up in prisons and earthquake Shook and Angels brought them out through Divine okay notice how real quickly Jones wants to make that history right instead of saying yeah she had a midest touch ah it's like Camelot instead of saying they mythologized potentially really events in some way but we cannot know what those things were for sure because all we have are stories about it that goes for the shipwrecks and what happened at the beginning why he laughed are you kidding me with his little condescending attitude like his little whiny bratty
• 189:00 - 189:30 attitude like are you kidding me like dude yeah I'm kidding you you know why because when they spoke in tongues and the fire took over and they were in a trance they were being accused of being drunk by the onlookers just like in Ides the mads who were in a trance speaking in T GL what they called it they started speaking out random syllables that's happens they were accused of being drunk the the earthquakes that release them from prison the list can go on and on both kings die on a hill yeah one is the
• 189:30 - 190:00 good guy in this narrative one is the bad guy in this narrative they're dying on a hill skola Gaga and John right so you have what what I'm trying to get is Mark WGY who wrote that book said he didn't even try to argue literary like like he's borrowing from ureides that's when Dennis McDonald in the dionan gospel says Mark W sty this is his words about this very scholar I quoted he says he gets cold feet from going all the way and then Dennis takes it from the cold feet to the solid and
• 190:00 - 190:30 he makes so many connections that even the scholars you say are not doing literary mimesis are saying there are Illusions illustration there's there's some type of cultural diffusion happening where they are being influenced right this is no doubt yep on her out I know I'm at a loss of words right now I know and like again this is parallel Mania I mean you could do this with anything I know he he doesn't like the word parallel Mania you know and
• 190:30 - 191:00 it's like he'll use like parallel phobia or something like that but it's just like you know I could say well Martin Luther borrowed from the story of Achilles in The Iliad because just like Achilles refused to fight in The Iliad and he this is a horrible stupid dumb example honestly unless you found sources at the time of Martin Luther where they trained Protestant scribes and Catholic scribes to
• 191:00 - 191:30 specifically study these sources and imitate them that was the practice of the day then you might have something going just trying to like act like we're an idiot we what you and I find we find first we find like the general first top layer parallels but then we find dates in up we find sequence of events matching up we find uh words being said linguistic matching up what he's trying to say now is just kind of just he's he it's like a German Protestant or Catholic turned Protestant guy in German
• 191:30 - 192:00 in in way later not under the Roman Empire with the same similar cultural kind of issues going there a totally different world at that point that is I agree we could find parallel Mania we know what parallel Mania is we're dealing with a culture yeah that is actually living and breathing in the Legends of the GRE Roman Imperial cult which is breathing in the Legends in the myths of the well-known GRE Roman and other I mean dude Godly this is ridiculous I can't even believe I get accused of parallel amania of course go
• 192:00 - 192:30 somewhere off in the left field we could see structural and thematic similarities with John's gospel what I'm sorry what what what similarities Beyond vague generalities Eric help me out I'm confused well you already you already went through this with Dennis you did the whole section on this we don't have to really I I that was the concrete version Mark WG sty is the one who's not even doing the full
• 192:30 - 193:00 Dennis approach in mimetic literary but he's the one who said thematic and and and like linguistic similarities in the whole thing just explain that so what similarities Jones just read a book right I mean dude you don't have to also William atridge talks about the gospel to be Being John being a tragedy as well Bingo he calls him a drama too and that was quoted in Dennis's book yeah so this is not like something you're making up or anything like that this is something and you've already demonstrated for like a very well written out uh segment on
• 193:00 - 193:30 Dennis's work so we don't have to keep doing that no we do not I think we need to go to you so what is the theory about Yahweh having a wife that was Asher so uh yes at one point the Israelites decided God needed a wife and the prophet said you were wrong that is stupid uh so yeah this definitely happens in ancient Judea this is it's in the biblical text where we have direct evidence for them doing that and being condemned so just like you have with Christians preaching Jesus as God you had other groups come out later called
• 193:30 - 194:00 the gnostics that preach the weird combination of Greek mythology some of their own ideas blending with Christianity and they were condemned as Heretics likewise in ancient according to the biblical narrative the ancient narrative is that God reveals himself the Israelites Rebel and syncretize him with other Gods reduce his glory thinking he needs a wife and the prophets are sent to condemn that so yes we can acknowledge the ancient Israelites thought God needed a wife and say duh that's what the Bible says they were doing and it was wrong it was
• 194:00 - 194:30 condemned by the prophets all right so first of all addressing the astroid thing he's got the chronology way off he's just s he just so he has an axiom the Bible has to be true no matter what and any history has to come secondary so instead of looking at ugaritic sources where Ashera and ball are already there they didn't introduce Asher after the ugaritic text so Yahweh gets merged into the elal in Jerusalem they already had ashra there the the the archaeology proves this ask Jonathan Adler ask ad
• 194:30 - 195:00 Bara ask any ask Israel finlin ask any of the leading archaeologists in Israel about this Asher was there before Yahweh Yahweh got introduced to to Ash if anything and ashra didn't go away and then come back later by some some Heretics that you you just made that up for whatever reason to fit the historical narrative to see how well how do I how do I deal with this and make the Bible true then he also Compares it to the gnostics who called the gnostics only a very few groups called themselves
• 195:00 - 195:30 nost nooy knowers they didn't all call themselves that they called themselves Christians they were just Heretics they didn't well according to only a certain group only certain groups only certain groups introduce Greek philosophy and and and uh mythology into the mix too some of these not some of these no sto or or Heretics were on the Jud Jud judaic side believe it or not so he doesn't have any idea about narcissism nor does he have any idea about the chronology of Jewish religion Judean
• 195:30 - 196:00 religion I should say of Asher worship she was there the whole time and then taken out probably around the third Century BC right we've we and we've been talking about that with Gad Bara but what's interesting about what you said is from my takeaway of of Jones is that he is looking at the Bible whatever the Bible says what that author is saying that's true again like you said the aim is the Bible so so what does the New Testament teach well as long as the New Testament teaches this anything I find outside of that this go
• 196:00 - 196:30 ahead I'm sorry no please please so as we both know that janisan Adler points out that there's no widespread observance of Judaism until the 150s that means the average Joe who these laws are written for don't know about any of this stuff until the maban period when becomes law of the land so Jones will say well it was just the priesthood in in in Jerusalem that were trying to keep this but and they're trying to get it out there but there was heresy and then they'll think of some reason to get
• 196:30 - 197:00 around it however he gets this proven immediately by looking at coins issued in Jerusalem the people who issued the coins in Jerusalem was the intelligencia the Elite Class that's who minted coin that's who controlled the monetary system guess who minted their own face on a coin in around 410 BCE the Judean high priest of of of Jerusalem that's right he's the only the the the high priest of Jerusalem doesn't even know
• 197:00 - 197:30 about Torah law says you cannot make griven images of anyone except no living object yeah so they don't even have to so this proves that your chronology that Moses came along and wrote the Torah in 1300 BCE and then they had this struggle all the way down until Jesus is fall it's not historical you don't you're you're all you're this is why when he said earlier in this video openminded which is it come on this is why this documentary is so long there's so much fluff like that which is not only
• 197:30 - 198:00 dishonest Derek it is downright rude to me and my audience you want us to you you say we're equals but then you do crap like this come on are you really treating us like we're on the same playing field wake up sheele the part where he just said that you don't you're not treating him like an equal that you're treating looking down on him this this is the exact reason why I do this to him because you don't even have basic historiography right Moses couldn't have wrote the Torah because Hebrew didn't even exist in that time so you your your
• 198:00 - 198:30 entire historiography is wrong you don't even know when Asher was was worshiped and when she wasn't worshiped you're just using the Bible as history and making everything else fit in between that's why I can't take you seriously so they'll say the Israelites are actually Canaanites uh yeah they'll make this argument uh we'll say there's definitely similarities between the Israelites and the Canaanites they share a common culture you know the Israelites live in Canaan have similar culture with the Canaanites uh but so we and we would expect that some of the Israelites were
• 198:30 - 199:00 descended from Canaanites cuz you know Judah took a Canaanite woman uh sometimes the Israelites did breed with the Canaanite so we should expect it descendants of Israel should have Canaanite DNA in there so that shouldn't be an issue you go they're they'll make this argument as if who's they Scholars because that's who Scholars Scholars are saying we're not even mythicist category Israelites are are the Canaanites they're the same people um there was obviously a name for a group of people
• 199:00 - 199:30 within Canaan as Israelites it's fine we could do that we can we can par this out but the culture is is is is widespread yeah the judeans or the Israelites whoever you want to call them they were polytheistic up until like the helenistic era as the evidence shows um they were they speak the same language as the Canaanites they uh live in the same cities as the Canaanites the idea that you could separate them and make them one of them is the evil Canaanites
• 199:30 - 200:00 these are the Glorious Israelites is completely ahistorical it's it's anachronistic and it's based on the voice of the Bible that's what he wants he even grants that they're genetically the same they they speak the same they live walk like a duck talk like a duck it's a damn duck yeah and I would even go to the geneticist and DNA and all that kind of stuff like I'm not the guy for that but like he isn't either and but he's the one granting all that so you're basically you grant all the things that make someone someone and then saying but they're still not
• 200:00 - 200:30 because I said so yeah yeah yeah it's just nonsense so the question is is the question is did did did it evolve did polytheism evolve slowly into Mon monotheism by reducing Gods that's just not how religions work I mean you look look at like the uh Arabia it didn't go from polytheism to a few gods and then eventually Islam it was polytheism and then Islam revolutionary like movement that took over uh same with a lot of you know like Hinduism it's been polytheistic for Generations no evidence
• 200:30 - 201:00 of evolving slowly in the monotheism that's just not how religions work they they there's revolutionary changes that happen overnight not slow progression Evolution type thing so when some biblical Scholars say well yeah the the biblical religion slowly evolved out of polytheism it doesn't fit any model I can really think of all right so he's absolutely wrong number one he's wrong about Arabian religion because be the centuries leading up to Islam Christianity and Judaism were on the
• 201:00 - 201:30 rise there even their Pagan religions had some sort of monistic um bent where they all the 365 gods are sort of under one and so that that that's actually just completely wrong it wasn't overnight they went from complete polytheism like barbaric polytheists into Islam overnight no as I mentioned Christianity Islam manism was spreading throughout that part of the world um the Mand were over there as well and they influenced
• 201:30 - 202:00 what became Islam so it did zor asrian zor asrian were all over Persia and Arabia influencing Islam so didn't just happened overnight that complete barbaric P polytheist you're buying into the narrative too by he's he's buying into the islamar is it's really interesting because I just interviewed a Cutting Edge on like this guy's an epigraph absolute Bonafide scholar he points out that mono like finding polytheism in Arabia you might have to go to like
• 202:00 - 202:30 third Century ad but like maybe fourth after that monotheism everyone's monotheist so you have Jews Christians and then there's this other group that like can be one God it's like mandans and zoroastrians blending into each other but there's it's what becomes Islam basically it's the Proto Islam and you can see it you can see it in the record you can see it in the sources he doesn't know this obviously oh I agree with him that it's it's not a a linear timeline that from polytheism into
• 202:30 - 203:00 monotheism there are Parts in history for example the vadas right the the the vadas has a is polytheistic but it also has a Brahman cator who's the one that you it's almost like Plato's Demi urge so there there always was this ISM uh Trend all over the place going all the way back to the Iron Age even before that with aism there always was a little pockets of monotheism or henotheism or even monism but the the ultimate Trend does seem to have like at
• 203:00 - 203:30 the end of the day you do see a sort of a going away from the more polytheistic towards the monotheistic Soul Invictus was more monistic Soul Invictus was this supreme god in mithraism or whatever so you do see there is a trend that does lead in that direction but it's not completely linear it is there's some there's some bouncing going on if we had archaological but he's still wrong though he still gets it wrong it would be amazing if we found four or 5,000
• 203:30 - 204:00 year old archaeological like monotheistic you know cultic practices but we don't yeah everything going that far back from Egypt and Mesopotamia or any of the Cults that we have discovered are polytheistic societies AB there is no monotheism there so there's never a pure monotheism ever right right it's always Mo I always call it monistic like what's the degree of mon later they do try to philosophically hone it down in the ancient world and is and even Islam starting out still has other spirits and deities that are within Islam Islam is
• 204:00 - 204:30 the most PO is most monistic of all right but that's why I I use that's why I like using the term monistic because it's the degree of how much there's one God in control of everything that's what you're looking at you're never you're never looking at pure only one God exists there's no Damon and Angels or a devil or something that doesn't happen anywhere not even Christianity not even Islam yeah is Jesus the true myth that C Lewis argued for um so that was C Lewis's idea that Jesus is similar and quite frankly he was just wrong uh Jesus
• 204:30 - 205:00 has a unique character in the history of religions he's not similar to these Pagan deities and in his time there were some of those ideas being put out so he you know it's not like he was just ignorant it's just that was a common theme you know you had James Fraser putting some of that stuff out so yeah you had that basic idea but I don't think that uh CS was right about that no so he's talking about his his hero uh CS Lewis disagreeing with him and I just found it funny he's he's it's like he's
• 205:00 - 205:30 he has to keep hitting that point that Jesus is unique and special CS Lewis is wrong he's wrong he's right about a lot of stuff but he's wrong about this one because I just had a whole speech on this so would have been weird for him to say yeah I think CS Lewis is on something there yeah I just thought that was a good little clip to add in there before the last absolutely I think that this is again reversing he'll act like we made it to where it's unfalsifiable and he I mean really is the category dealing with history this soft kind of I
• 205:30 - 206:00 guess you say this is a soft Arena that we're playing in because it's a bit subjective and the tools aren't as concrete as test tubes and DNA and all that kind of stuff but when when he asks for falsifiability I feel that he is evasive no matter what is brought there's no way to ever get him to recognize cuz he needs the Bible to be true right seriously I really do think that's what it's boiling down to and that's why I said what I said I knew we' do a magic trick he did he didn't want my audience he thought I didn't want my audience to see it well you watch it and then by the
• 206:00 - 206:30 way when I sent this I asked for kakuni but she's in Japan right now uh on vacation or something or doing work um I wanted her to watch the osir section to give us two cents I'm sure she I think we got it good though absolutely uh I I mean we are seeing a rise of neopaganism in interesting ways I know there's more pagans that are active online uh I don't know what could happen I don't think paganism is a is a religion that really can beat
• 206:30 - 207:00 Christianity I mean just look at history Christianity spread around the world and just beat paganism wherever it went beat paganism wherever it went as if you actually look at the history number one as you pointed out earlier the uh the idea that they were persecuted is true to to an extent but it's greatly exaggerated Dian was pretty rough against them right before Constantine and then at other times in that there's a few little scuff marks that happen to them like any group any cult's going to have their bad times and good times like
• 207:00 - 207:30 the Dian group for example it's not like they're like singled out as like the only people who got persecuted in fact during the reign of the the the Severin period they were very much treated as like Royals the mother of seus Alexander was a noble Christian woman so the and Philip the Arab was baptized and they treated the Christians with great dignity the Christians were treated great by the ruling Pagan aristocracy but what happened was when theodosius
• 207:30 - 208:00 takes power he decides to turn turn around and treat the pagans the way they claim to be treated he shut down all the temples he had all the all the statues torn down he had all the funding stopped for all Pagan religions um he neglected the the the Mysteries neglected the the schools of philosophy were pretty much dead by the time um Justinian the great comes along he completely stops funding for all the Pagan philosophers all the all the platonic cies done and then they
• 208:00 - 208:30 go they go into Europe and they start sacking cities and cutting down their sacred trees and outlawing all religions except for Christianity yeah so they beat them wherever they went they didn't beat him philosophically they beat them by canceling them and shutting them down I would argue they absorbed the world they were in like any type of uh disgusting you know really they evolved and became the environment they they were in and then squashed the existing pre-existing
• 208:30 - 209:00 thing that was there after drawing from all this stuff you turn around and then destroy them as if they're your enemies and they were the ones that allowed you to be legal in the first place I I want to this is a fast point you bring up nil that is how often we hear morality comes from Christianity all these things that they argue and when I hear them saying I'm like I heard that in Plato and they're drawing from the stoics they're drawing from the cynics they're drawing from the from the Pythagorean philosophy
• 209:00 - 209:30 they're drawing from platonist philosophy the draw they're drawing from all these schools of thought that were already epicurian epicurian Aristotelian um all types of uh all types of schools of thought that you find in Alexandria that you find in that you find in pergamum they don't nod to them they don't appreciate those they want you to go you're borrowing from us and it's like some of the early ones did Justin Martyr nodded to Plato you know they did not only nodded he said Plato
• 209:30 - 210:00 was a saint who's in heaven right bro the the the carpan said that this this as well a lot of the early Christians did acknowledge because they couldn't hide from it they were still out there they're still living in that world as soon as the Justinian rolls around at post Justinian pagans are evil demonic uh worshiping devils and all this stuff and that sort of Hysteria that's how you beat paganism wherever they were to me that's just like it's like you mentioned it's like Muslims bragging that they
• 210:00 - 210:30 went into a Indian city and and raided the city because they were Hindus or yeah the the conquer the quest conquest of of Islam is somehow attributed and believe it or not philos to many of them they would say God was on our side that's why we want Jones think that Islamic philosophy is what beat out paganism in the East yeah would he say the theological arguments or somehow the morality of Islam is is as an anti-muslim he is he would never say that right he wouldn't and uh we're trying to be consistent and say look
• 210:30 - 211:00 let's look at the good choose shoose the meat spit out the bone Neil any final words from you well I mean I think we just demonstrated fully that Michael Jones is is as he points out that we don't treat him on the same level as I do I know you try to be but I kind of uh neglected I kind of um abandoned even attempting to do that because he's not serious in my opinion he's not coming seriously he's not trying to find the truth he's trying to find whatever he's shopping around for Scholars that agree
• 211:00 - 211:30 with him he's disregarding Scholars I don't agree with him to me that's the sign of an person who is not serious it's not even just that like the evidence Joshua bone brings there's no debate it solidifies how the understanding you go with a 1967 paper instead of what the Contemporary academics are showing you in the actual language you don't even have a clue about he even made a comment in there and this was mentioned to me by Joshua B he goes man he acted like uh that the something about the suan like they don't understand the suan and then Joshua's
• 211:30 - 212:00 like how much Sumerian does he know none none and that's who you shop around for because you you like what he says but right I think that's dishonest and uh I'm interested to see how he response to this I am too ladies and gentlemen be sure to go and subscribe to Gnostic informant Neil sylac here joining us on myth Vision if you've enjoyed this go check it out uh the previous documentary if you didn't watch our water into wine stuff going through primary sources let me know what your thoughts are of that go check out Jones's videos and enjoy
• 212:00 - 212:30 his presentation then go read a bunch of different academics and check it out for yourself so we thank you and never forget we are myth vision and you have just attained true