Interview with a coachee (Fiona MacKinlay)

Estimated read time: 1:20

Summary

In an insightful and deeply personal interview, Fiona MacKinlay shares her experience of working with cancer, from the initial shock of her kidney cancer diagnosis to finding her way back to work with the help of coaching. Fiona discusses her challenges, including mental and emotional impacts, the struggle to regain confidence at work, and the support she received from her employers and the charity Working With Cancer. Throughout the conversation, Fiona provides invaluable advice for both individuals going through similar experiences and employers looking to support their staff effectively.

Highlights

Fiona was diagnosed with kidney cancer after a routine medical test, turning her life upside down. 📊
Her surgery and treatment journey were filled with challenges, including a lack of initial emotional support from the medical team. 🏥
The coaching from Working With Cancer was a lifeline for Fiona, helping her to rebuild her confidence and professional identity. 🎯
Fiona's story sheds light on the often-overlooked mental health struggles that accompany physical recovery from cancer. 🧠
She emphasizes the need for employer awareness and adaptability, noting significant gaps in support systems for returning workers post-cancer. 💼

Key Takeaways

Fiona's cancer was discovered unexpectedly during a routine check-up, highlighting the importance of regular medical tests. 🩺
Despite the absence of physical symptoms, the emotional and psychological impacts of cancer were significant for Fiona. 🌊
Coaching played a crucial role in helping Fiona adjust to her 'new normal' and regain her confidence. 🎓
Employers can significantly aid recovery by providing phased returns and empathetic support, highlighting the human aspect of cancer recovery. 🤝
There's a need for better awareness and structured support systems for cancer survivors in workplaces, much like the support being developed for menopause. 🏢

Overview

Fiona MacKinlay's journey through cancer and back into the workplace is both heart-wrenching and inspiring. Diagnosed with kidney cancer after a routine check, Fiona was thrust into a world of medical jargon and life-altering decisions. The removal of her kidney was just the beginning; the emotional toll was equally daunting, as she struggled with anxiety and a newfound awareness of her mortality.

Returning to work was no easy feat for Fiona. She faced a multitude of challenges, from physical fatigue to mental vulnerability. The lack of workplace support pushed Fiona to seek help from Working With Cancer, whose coaching underpinned her gradual recovery and return to normalcy. Through her sessions, Fiona found the strength to piece together her professional life with a renewed sense of self-worth and direction.

Fiona's story is a call to action for employers to reconsider how they support employees battling cancer. Her experience underscores the necessity for empathetic, well-structured return-to-work plans that account for the holistic recovery process, which includes physical, mental, and emotional health. Fiona advocates for training and support systems akin to those being established for other workplace health challenges, championing a more inclusive, understanding work environment for cancer survivors.

Chapters

00:00 - 00:30: Introduction and Fiona's Background The introduction features an interview with Fiona McKinley, discussing her experience with cancer and the support she received. Fiona introduces herself as a cancer survivor, married with two children. The conversation is set to explore her insights on supporting individuals managing work during or after cancer treatment.
00:30 - 01:00: Fiona's Role in Higher Education The chapter titled 'Fiona's Role in Higher Education' explores Fiona's professional journey and current role in the higher education sector. Fiona works full-time as a professional in one of the UK's largest universities, a position she has held since the year 2000. She currently serves as the head of Professional Services within a specific school at the university, highlighting her significant role and long-standing commitment to her field.
01:30 - 03:00: Cancer Diagnosis and Treatment The chapter titled 'Cancer Diagnosis and Treatment' discusses the extensive organizational structure within a large educational institution, the third largest in the UK. It highlights the role of professional teams in strategizing and operationalizing tasks to support students and academics. The speaker describes their own role as one of business partnering, working alongside a dedicated team to manage these responsibilities effectively.
03:00 - 03:30: Challenges During Diagnosis The chapter "Challenges During Diagnosis" discusses the unexpected diagnosis of kidney cancer in 2017, which was discovered following a routine ultrasound for an unrelated issue. The narrator describes the event as surprising because the ultrasound technician spent an unusual amount of time examining their abdomen, raising initial concerns before revealing the presence of cancer. This chapter highlights the unforeseen nature of the diagnosis and hints at the emotional and logistical challenges that might arise from such unexpected medical findings.
03:30 - 04:30: Post-surgery and Recovery Post-surgery and Recovery: The narrator recounts their experience of receiving unexpected news following a medical examination. Despite having no symptoms, a consultant informed them that they needed to visit urology due to findings from a test. The consultant mentioned that similar cases turned out to be cancer, although the narrator initially hoped it was just a cyst. This chapter reflects on the emotional impact of receiving potential cancer diagnosis and the beginning of their journey in urology.
04:30 - 06:30: Return to Work and Related Challenges The chapter discusses a patient's experience during a medical consultation where they received a diagnosis of kidney cancer. The consultant informed the patient about the size of the tumor and mentioned the need for a procedure called a nephrectomy, though the patient was unfamiliar with what that entailed. This part of the chapter captures the emotional and clinical aspects of receiving such a diagnosis and the challenges associated with understanding medical procedures.
07:30 - 09:00: Seeking Coaching Support In this chapter titled 'Seeking Coaching Support,' the narrator recounts a medical consultation where the doctor informs them about the necessity of removing a left kidney due to a condition that cannot be treated with chemotherapy or radiotherapy. Both the narrator and her husband are left in a state of shock and uncertainty, not knowing how to process or deal with the news they have just received. This chapter underscores the emotional challenge and need for support in coping with difficult medical situations.
09:00 - 11:30: Coaching Experience and Benefits In this chapter, the narrator shares a deeply personal experience related to a cancer diagnosis. Initially, the narrator was caught off guard by the casual manner in which a serious medical operation was suggested, as if it were a routine matter, juxtaposed with preparations for an upcoming holiday. The diagnosis triggered memories of a personal loss, evoking fear due to the association of cancer with death, drawing from the emotional impact of losing their father to prostate cancer. The chapter explores the emotional journey and the psychological impact of facing a serious illness.
12:00 - 14:30: Employer Support and Advice for Others This chapter discusses the challenges faced by a patient in scheduling a surgery due to a backlog in the NHS. The patient recounts their experience of having to wait two months for an operation date and shares an encounter with their consultant during a pre-operative visit, where an oversight was humorously corrected.
24:30 - 28:30: Advice for Employers The chapter titled 'Advice for Employers' discusses the signing of a medical consent form. The narrator recounts a conversation with a consultant who dramatically highlights the risks by underscoring the word 'death'. Feeling pressured, the narrator signs the form. Fortunately, a different consultant performs the operation, exhibiting exceptional empathy and bedside manner, contrasting with the previous consultant's approach.
34:00 - 37:30: Needed Changes and Final Thoughts The chapter discusses the narrator's experience of being diagnosed with a rare subtype of kidney cancer called chromophobe, which accounts for only 5% of kidney cancers. It outlines the care plan established by the medical team, which includes six monthly scans for the initial two years followed by annual check-ups up to five years, eventually transitioning to ultrasound monitoring.

Interview with a coachee (Fiona MacKinlay) Transcription

00:00 - 00:30 hi everyone today I'm speaking with Fiona McKinley about her experience of working with cancer about the coaching she receed from us and what advice she would give to others about supporting people managing work during or after cancer treatment so lovely to see you Fiona this morning lovely to see you too Barbara um perhaps you could just start by introducing yourself and what you do yeah so I'm Fiona McKinley and I'm a cancer survivor I'm married with two
00:30 - 01:00 children and I work fulltime as a higher education uh professional um I work in one of the UK's largest uh universities uh where I've been since year 2000 excellent so can you tell us a little bit about uh the organization how how it works um so I'm a head of Professional Services um within um one particular school and
01:00 - 01:30 across the organization we have like four big colleges um as I said we're third largest in the UK um and I am responsible for all the professional teams within my area uh in terms of dealing with all the strategy and oper operationalization not an easy part for me to say um and uh really supporting all the students and and the academics and in essence that kind of it's a business partnering role that I have um and I've got a team of
01:30 - 02:00 50 um that I managed so a big a a big job it's a big job yes so look tell us about your cancer diagnosis and treatment and and how are you doing um so in mid 2017 um I was diagnosed with um kidney cancer um and it was actually following a routine test for something completely unrelated um I remember I went for an ultrasound and the radiographer was spending quite a bit of time you know kind of around my middle and I thought oh what are you
02:00 - 02:30 doing um cuz I had no symptoms nothing um so I then got a phone call from the consultant who had referred me for the the test to say going to send you to H Urology um to get it seen because the scans picked something up and then I remember the consultant said to me I mean you're like the third woman that I've spoken to this week where they found something and it turned out to be cancer and I was like all right okay and I thought maybe it's just a sis so anyway went to see you neurology sent
02:30 - 03:00 for CT scan and then I remember getting called in and there was no specialist nurse at at that point in with me it was the consultant and I remember he had a trainee sitting in the corner looking a bit miserable and the consultant said to me yes well you know I mean you've got kidney cancer I mean it's a five in tumor you know size of a tennis ball quite big um so basically we will just tick you in h you get a pH effect to me and I said but I don't know what that is
03:00 - 03:30 oh we take your left kidney completely remove it um and then yeah just uh that that'll be it really because can't give you chemo or radiotherapy because it's too thig and it won't work um so have you got any questions and I went uh oh and I thought I really didn't know how to deal with it my husband just sat there dumbfounded in the train he was like you I didn't know how to deal with it so then um after that extraordinary Fiona that is unbelievable
03:30 - 04:00 you know I was just like pardon and he's like yeah operation in three to four weeks H you'll be fine have you got a holiday boots and I was like well I'm just to go in holiday in a couple of weeks is that okay oh yes just take your tumor and holiday with you and I remember thinking I've just been given a diagnosis of cancer which to me meant death um because I'd lost my own father to prostate cancer um three years previously and I'd seen what it was like to go right the way through to the the
04:00 - 04:30 very end so to my mind I thought there's some mistake so anyway um I remember I was you know sent off and um I actually took two months to get the date for the operation because there was such a backlog and the NHS at that time and I remember when I went to get my pre-op with the same consultant he said right so we do all the forms Etc and then at the very end he was like oh I forgotten something he gets his pen and he writes
04:30 - 05:00 down yes I need to add something to this and he wrote down the word death and then underscored it and said I mean you could die um but you know and I was like and then he was like so sign here and he gave me the pen and I thought well I don't have a choice I have to sign this or or I don't get it anyway I then luckily had a completely different consultant who did the operation amazing individual never had such you know bedside empathy before um um that went
05:00 - 05:30 fine I went I was in hospital for a week and then the pathology came back to say that I had actually quite a rare subtype of kidney cancer called chromophobe um and there's only 5% of all kidney cancers that come into that so that was kind of what I got and then it was the you know the care plan of um you'll be getting six monthly scans for two years um and then after that it'll be annual up to five um and then on to ultrasound
05:30 - 06:00 for Life uh because of my young age and it was the only time that I felt that I was still relatively young in my mid-40s and because everybody else who I was in along with h you know in the waiting room were a lot lot older than me um so I try to see the funny side of it um so anyway um at present um I've had my last CT scan a few months ago so I've got Ned so no evidence of disease um and then I
06:00 - 06:30 next year I'll go on to Ultrasound um my kidney function is taking a little bit of a dip at the moment but they're not too concerned about that but of course anytime that happens I think oh you know what's what's wrong with the kidney is it okay but I'm learning how how to cope with it basically so that's kind of where I am today wow okay what a story what a story so how long were you off work for in to um s months because when I actually got
06:30 - 07:00 the diagnosis and then I had to wait the the two months um for the operation I think it just it just floored me um I think that whole what's happening to me you know and I I've been having quite a challenging time in work anyway in terms of coping with workload and because it had felt like a slow motion car crash is the only way that I can describe at point of diagnosis I just went to Pieces Just I just I can't go back to work I can't face it I can't
07:00 - 07:30 be the leader that people need me to be because I need to be able to focus on myself yeah so as I said off for then and then um five months post post treatment so yeah and all about seven months okay so what were and maybe still are the the the main challenges you've faced in managing your work and cancer I think um both physical and mental and emotional
07:30 - 08:00 um I mean aside from you know having the the S major surgery um I actually found that the mental and emotional impact worse um because I hadn't anticipated how traumatic I would find the whole experience and I think when it when it came back you know around returning to work discussion I just I felt like I was hit by a tidal wave of a complete loss of confidence uh you know I was meant to be a leader out there leading the teams
08:00 - 08:30 supporting my staff delivering the strategy but inside I just felt I was crumbling um and I think I also put myself under pressure because I I you know there was that the challenges of what people expect from me but also what I expected of myself you know the should and certainly the should was you know really problematic you know you should be better I mean you only had surgery you know whereas I would go it
08:30 - 09:00 doesn't matter what treatment you get for cancer it's awful full stop it's not a competition to see who's had it worse um so there was that I really struggled with that aspect um I think I struggled with the notion of how was I going to be able to do my job but then it started to evolve into do I really want to do it um is this what I want to do with the rest of my life I'm not sure
09:00 - 09:30 I then started to feel a lot of pressure you know I need to know what I want to do with the rest of my life you know I've been lucky I've survived there are people in worse situations than you and I thought I don't want to be compared to anybody else I'm me we all different absolutely um you know so that there was that in terms of having been away for work for so long um and then obviously things go on without you and then and then you return and I limped that's what
09:30 - 10:00 word I would use I limped back um to work and um I did my best to put a smiley confident face on um and just to try and get on with it and I think I was also afraid you know was my employer which they never said but I was worried that they were going to turn around and say you know you can't do your job as well as what you used to so actually do we need you any longer and I absolutely was convinced that that was what was going to happen so I wanted to almost
10:00 - 10:30 like prove to others that oh here's Fiona Back singing and dancing and I wanted also to be careful that it didn't come across that I was wearing a I've had cancer badge um you know because I was conscious that there were people who were really happy to see me and he would chat but there was plenty that just they didn't want to talk about it don't mention it in case it upsets her and I get it because it's very very difficult I think for others around
10:30 - 11:00 to know what to see and how to approach it yeah that's a common common problem that people have it's like better to say nothing when actually that's really not better at all well exactly you know um and I think as well for me there was a my perception was it was a complete lack of awareness in how to support someone who'd had a cancer diagnosis and who had now returned to work and I felt very very alone I mean you know I was
11:00 - 11:30 referred to Occupational Health they were helpful up to a point but again there wasn't anything even for my manager to be able to refer to to you know to know how to support and work with me and and the focus I thought was definitely on the physical element yeah not understanding the psychological impact there was nothing nothing and I don't know whether there's still an element of that it's taboo Maybe it's too strong but there's an element of it
11:30 - 12:00 being taboo to talk about cancer in the workplace yeah yeah when there are so many people that you know do get it to varying you know degrees but at the end of the day it's still cancer um and they know that they have to continue to work you know for for whatever personal reason um but yeah it was just well so what do we need to do so you've got you know you've got fatigue Cas right okay so we know about that and you need lots of toilet breaks because you've got to drink lots of water right okay there was nothing about
12:00 - 12:30 the load that I was going to take back on and how I could possibly cope with it when I just didn't have the mental capacity to do it um but I think the other thing as well I would probably add um is even though now I still get sight pain occasionally um and I I I still get anxiety is because I don't think anybody ever manages to breathe into a scan and not feel anxious about it um I think as
12:30 - 13:00 well every day I still have a little think about that it could come back and I don't think again that ever leaves you no but you learn how to manage it yeah um so I think that is well um but also the perception certainly the longer that you're back at work oh that was ages ago that you had it and look you're fine you look well you know so and here's more work for you to do and and you're too afraid well certainly I was too afraid
13:00 - 13:30 to go just a minute you know I'm not feeling like that because it was all about the needs of the business that's what I felt it was about it was meeting the needs of the business and if I couldn't meet the needs of the business then perhaps I needed to think about doing something else yeah very tough and and that experience is you know not too um underplay it that experience is so common um uh employers just and and and Families they want to move on okay you
13:30 - 14:00 had cancer last year that was a year ago you know well actually well absolutely you know and I don't know whether part of it also comes down to them thinking about their own mortality that people don't want to hear about the stories about people who don't make it they want to hear the stories about people who do and it's like as long as you look okay and you look happy um then that's fine you know and it's that but like I said earlier you know cancer isn't like having the
14:00 - 14:30 flu you know it's not a few weeks of bed rest you know watching daytime TV and then oh you're here back up and running it it doesn't it doesn't work like that and I think it's it's a unique experience to everybody yeah absolutely and and has an enormous impact as you say psychologically which very few people understand so so what led you to approach us for coaching support fion so it's interesting um I
14:30 - 15:00 actually found you I remember doing a search on the internet around you know working with cancer because I thought you know I just it was about 18 months um after I'd returned to work and i' been sort of pling on and I just it was like again this huge wave of the trauma you really hit me and I was full of self-doubt and I thought I have to do something about this I mean I had obviously I got a little bit of support with other cancer Charities but that was more around the cancer itself it wasn't
15:00 - 15:30 so much about how do I as an individual return to the workforce and and reestablished that part of who I am as part of my identity so I did I did an intern search and uh I came across working with cancer um and I remember that I actually um I reached out to you and you and I had an initial first meeting just to have a chat and you know immediately I just thought oh someone who gets
15:30 - 16:00 it yeah totally understand you know what it's like um because no matter when you have that experience it stays with you um and I just felt so at ease and then when you were able to talk to me about um what support could be offered to me I just thought you know what I'm really anxious about this I'm very nervous I've never had coaching before but you know what I'm going to I'm going to give it a goal and um my my employ actually agreed to fund a few coaching sessions um so
16:00 - 16:30 you matched me up with f Simpson um and she and I just clicked immediately um it was that notion of I could really be myself um and I felt immediately at ease and that I knew I was doing the right thing good so so how do you think the coaching helped you cope with the with the challenges that you were facing at work um I think I I know that I was able
16:30 - 17:00 to freely discuss how I felt and and that I was actually being listened to you know I wasn't being judged um I was able to really offload and be honest maybe in a way that I hadn't been with other people because you know you're conscious about that people want you to be strong and look at you you're much better now and and I think for me the coaching helped me identify what was really important to me um and to articulate the challenges that I was
17:00 - 17:30 facing um and I could work through my feelings so overing a number of sessions I was able to actually reconnect with myself and F out how to exist in the The New Normal I know people you know kind of hear the phase kind a lot certainly you know is the pandemic but I think when you go through your cancer diagnosis you have to learn The New Normal um and being at work is part of that new normal um so I felt I was actually able to rebuild myself with
17:30 - 18:00 coaching rep prioritize and address some of the feelings that I had you know like I was an impostor um I was a fraud that they would find out that I wasn't actually good at my job um because for me cancer robbed me of my confidence but through getting coaching with working with cancer I have rebuilt that confidence and I've been able to take control and I think as well explore more
18:00 - 18:30 about how to manage my work how to manage perceptions of others but also take my experience of cancer and turn it into a positive one you know because yes it was awful and you know I became I was the lowest I'd ever been but rebuilding myself has given me that strength and I absolutely got that with you know with coaching I wouldn't I wouldn't be where I am today if I and I'm being honest I wouldn't be where I am today if it
18:30 - 19:00 wasn't without getting coaching through working with cancer well that's amazing and one of the things that really came out was you know this is my life and these are my choices um and it helped me regain my strength keep going and never give up brilliant that's so good to hear so from The Experience you've had what what would you say has been what have your employer or your colleague on has been most helpful would you say um I think
19:00 - 19:30 most helpful certainly um when I returned um I thought what was really helpful was apart from obviously getting coaching some funded coaching sessions working with cancer um they ensured that the person that had been covering my role while I had been away they kept them on for a few months um as part of my phase return so that I was able to slowly you know start to take on um load again so I thought that was very very
19:30 - 20:00 helpful um I think even just things like people being you know being kind to you and just saying you it's lovely to have you back um and trying to make you feel part of something again you know asking your advice um I think that really helped me I mean obviously you know I went to Occupational Health as well um and that helped up to a point um but again you know they cover a full breadth
20:00 - 20:30 of of you know occupational issues not so specifically you know cancer um so I think those are probably the main things that really helped okay so so what advice or top tips would you pass on to others in in your circumstances yeah um I would say definitely reach out to working with cancer if if you you get a coach um someone who you can speak to and be honest and be yourself and and just offload you know and have
20:30 - 21:00 that someone who's not a friend or a family or a work colleague who can really help you to work through how you feel um because a lot of the times I think we do have the answers and the solutions within us but we need that help to to find them um I think another thing I would say is health comes first I know it probably sounds rather obvious um but I think particularly when we're so busy at work you know and we've got a
21:00 - 21:30 family as well other responsibilities we often put ourselves last whereas health is Paramount because without that you know you're nothing you won't be able to do what you need to do I think also accept that cancer will change you and that's okay um and I think learning to do what's right for you because everyone's different some people are want to be able to talk about their experience and others don't um and again
21:30 - 22:00 do what's right for you but make sure you ask for the help when you need it um and I think enjoy the little things in life I mean I know I I certainly do in a way that you know I didn't used to but now I will I'll take great joy from that and I think as well when you're back at work be aware that there will be periods of stress that you'll hit and it might come out of the blue or it might be that you're maybe going for a checkup or you've got another St or you hear about somebody who's you know died from cancer
22:00 - 22:30 whe it's the one you had or not um and that it's okay not to be okay um I think also managing the perceptions of others um and and focus on what you can control because you can't control the behavior of other people but you have to think about when people have particular perceptions of you for example it's what actually Lies Beneath them being like that and often it's not really about you it's about them um I'm kind of conscious I've got a big
22:30 - 23:00 list here but I just want to good list I've only got a few more so I think um take your time and be in no rush H because ultimately the the race is actually against yourself anyway um it takes time to adjust to the the new reality and um that whole I need to know what I want to do with the rest of my life you know and you will see people in the Press who have had a lifechanging experience and then give up their job and go and Conquer M Everest and that's
23:00 - 23:30 fine if that's what they want to do but actually if you want to just quietly resume your life and and maybe CH change a few things that's okay as well you know you don't have to go and Conquer you know or to the world or whatever because you've had cancer if you weren't going to do it before cancer you know does it want to do it or not really um I think my last two things would be be kind to yourself and the should and you know I should do this I should be able
23:30 - 24:00 to do that and then I think also the final thing would be except that some colleagues will be happy to see you and we'll be quite comfortable talking to you about what you've been through but also there'll others that won't um and I think at the end of the day most people in work I think are just trying to be kind and helpful and they're doing their best um so if maybe sometimes they don't quite say things that are that helpful you learn to manage it yeah people tend people often mean well but
24:00 - 24:30 may may just say the wrong thing not throughout any through through any ill will but just absolutely you just have to kind of do your best when you get asked silly things or or people exactly you perfector my own you know and move on excellent some really great tips there so and how what sort of advice would you pass to employers then Fiona okay um so other than the obvious one
24:30 - 25:00 for me which is of working with cancer because you know you're not just there about supporting the employees it's also to work with the employers um because I think a lot of employers really are at a loss as to what to do so and and they almost like don't know where to start because again it's that it's the seword um you know so I think they needs to be able to get that guided help that they need I I think an employer needs to listen to their employees uh because I
25:00 - 25:30 said earlier you know getting a diagnosis isn't like having the flu or a tummy bug um and it often takes you know a cancer diagnosis for an employee to actually face their mentality for the first time in their life um and realize that getting a diagnosis for an employee doesn't just impact them physically but also mentally and be prepared that that employee may have periods of further anxiety and such as the take ups Etc and
25:30 - 26:00 but also maybe talk to the employee about what are the sort of behaviors that they might demonstrate when they are going through that period of anxiety because then you'll be aware and be able to work with them I think in a better way um I actually do also think that they should have H you know create a working with cancer toolkit um because and also a lack of training for for managers I think they need to have that I mean in the same way that it's great now that many employers
26:00 - 26:30 are you know having training courses on managing menopause in the workplace which is well overdue I also think they should have something like that for working with cancer um because they just well certainly my employer doesn't have anything like that didn't have it at the point in time and still doesn't have it um and I think that would then needs to link in with things like you know the equality and diversity and understanding that the employee who's had the that diagnosis is then considered disabled
26:30 - 27:00 for life so therefore how can you work with them to actually enable them to do their best work those would be the main things that I think we need to focus on yeah and I think all of those things act to kind of retain retain people who you've invested a lot of time and trouble in it's great for morale when employees see that yes somebody's being treated really well absolutely you kind of commercial terms it has enormous
27:00 - 27:30 benefits as much as anything else doesn't it absolutely I would absolutely agree with you because you know that whole you know you've got that employee and they have built up a wealth of experience um and that Talent is still there but it's very very costly to an employer to then lose somebody who's got that and then go through the whole recruitment you know process again and the training and trying to retain them you know and there's a lot of talk I think as well about you know the kind of the psychological contract that people
27:30 - 28:00 have with their employers and it is about things like being you know what's your purpose um and are you part of a community and and also like what are your career prospects but also accepting that perhaps you know individuals who have got cancer and or you know are remission they might have slightly different career aspirations from people who have not been through that and that's okay yeah absolutely um and and you know there are lots of ways people want to rebuild
28:00 - 28:30 their lives after cancer yes a few people give up work or do do something else but but I think it's important to recognize when you when you confront a lifethreatening illness that it's going to impact people in you know emotionally and they may want to do other things to enrich life absolutely and even for an employer to think okay so maybe the role that this person's in is you know now is maybe what not what they're wanting to do but this is still a talent that I could potentially retain H you know so
28:30 - 29:00 actually what are the opportunities you know what are the skills that this person has got but also I actually think it's that whole you know recruit for attitude and train for skills so if the person's got the right attitude actually then I think that's about really tapping into that yeah yeah you know um so yeah these are the things that I think would be really good for them to focus on and are change you'd like to see here in the UK to help people manage working cancer
29:00 - 29:30 yeah um I think there needs to be more around um you know the kind of the phased return piece because it does seem to vary very much from employer to employer so like my my own employer um you know while it's up to Occupational Health to kind of you know work with the employee they're still quite clear it's to be no more than four weeks um and I think when you're dealing with something like returning to work having had cancer
29:30 - 30:00 um four weeks is nothing um but whether because I can understand it from the employer perspective you know there's a resource a cost involved in that but equally I I I think that the UK has to look more into that in terms of supporting both employer and the employee um because I think there's too much variation I think four weeks is in my view I think four weeks is is unreasonable you know your entire to adjustments under the legislation the
30:00 - 30:30 equality act I think expecting anyone or most people because we're all different expecting most people to able to get back to work successfully fulltime after four weeks is an unreasonable requirement in my view yeah I mean I I would agree um because I had to use up some annual leave um to try and have you know extend my phase return but eventually I ran out of that leave so I had to go back um and that was I felt
30:30 - 31:00 there was a real pressure on me to get back up to working full-time quite quickly which I really really struggled with and I think also the UK I think needs to raise greater awareness and understanding about that yes there's the reasonable adjustments um you know that you're entitled to ask for them but also be aware that I think there are employers out there that will say yes but I don't have to because it doesn't meet the needs of the business and it's like look you know we really have to have a proper dialogue here it
31:00 - 31:30 shouldn't be people you know are at loggerheads with their employer um but it's how does an you employee get that protection I mean it's I again understand it can be really challenging from an employer perspective but I think the UK as a whole needs to do something a bit more about that um and I think they also the UK needs to give a similar Focus to cancer in the workplace same way that is done with the menopause yeah I mean the menopause the
31:30 - 32:00 focus absolutely deserves it but where is the focus on cancer yeah I think it's really I think it's really interesting I think I mean clearly you know two years ago no one three years ago nobody was talking about the menopause I'm afraid to say things come in and out of fashion and uh and Cancer's been around a hell of a long time as as has the menopause yes um but you know I I I would say this wouldn't but you know I do believe cancer is rather more
32:00 - 32:30 debilitating than the menopause and and rather more life-threatening um say that it can't be incredibly tough for some women keep coping with the menopause and you know I still have many of the symptoms of it still get um but I think you know cancer is such a challenge both the individual and their employer um definitely definitely you know I mean in my workplace you know we have like menopause cafes and and they will run session for for staff but there's nothing nothing on cancer yeah
32:30 - 33:00 um you know we've maybe had some sessions about like hidden disabilities uh you know in the workplace but again it's that we need to do more yeah and I think as well you know again you know linking with the menopause thing you know I mean the government was happy enough to you know have a menopause employment Champion H to improve workplace support well where's the equivalent for cancer yeah it's not there yeah yeah absolutely hey ho thank
33:00 - 33:30 you those are really really good observations finally is there anything else you'd like to add that you think is relevant for those listening to this interview today Fiona um just a couple of things I mean I think at the end of the day you know what I have talked about in this interview is my own personal experience and everyone's will be different yeah um and you so it's not a one-size fitall approach that works when you return um you know to work falling cancer and my final thing would just be to reiterate remember this is
33:30 - 34:00 your life these are your choices and you're probably a lot stronger than what you think thank you Fiona that has been so so helpful thank you Barbara uh it's been absolute pleasure and I'm sure many others returning to work with or after cancer will find your advice immensely immensely helpful so well I'm sure they will um I'm just going to share my screen now just to give some details
34:00 - 34:30 about about working with cancer so I just wanted to say that this interview has been recorded by working with cancer if you would like to find out more about our services please get in touch with us either via our website at workingwith cancer. co.uk or contact admin at workingwith cancer. co.uk or call us on 0791 8
34:30 - 35:00 35585 thank you everybody for listening and thank you again for not at all Barbara it's been my pleasure