@smartchristians & @Fighting4theFaith Disagree LIVE on Infant Baptism

Summary

The debate between infant baptism and believers' baptism took center stage in this lively discussion featuring Chris Roseboro and Corey Miner. Chris, supporting the Lutheran tradition, argued for infant baptism using scriptural texts and historical church practices. Corey, advocating for believers' baptism, highlighted the necessity of faith and personal decision prior to the act. The conversation brought out different interpretations of key biblical texts, all while maintaining an atmosphere of mutual respect and camaraderie, emphasizing the essence of baptism within Christian faith.

Highlights

• The discussion revolves around whether infant baptism is legitimate or if baptism should only be performed on consenting adults. 💧
• Chris Roseboro, a Lutheran, argues in favor of infant baptism, providing a historical and scriptural basis. 📜
• Corey Miner believes in believers’ baptism, emphasizing faith and personal decision prior to the act. ✝️
• The conversation highlights differences in interpreting biblical texts related to baptism. 📖
• Both hosts, despite disagreements, maintain a civil and brotherly tone, showcasing different perspectives within Christianity. 🤝

Key Takeaways

• Infant baptism vs. believers’ baptism – a debate as old as time itself. ⏳
• Chris Roseboro defends infant baptism with scriptural and historical references. 📚
• Corey Miner emphasizes personal faith and decision before baptism – it's a believers’ affair! 🙌
• Context and interpretation of biblical texts concerning baptism are crucial. 🔍
• Two Christian brothers in dialogue, showing how diverse beliefs can engage respectfully! 💬

Overview

Ah, the age-old debate: to sprinkle the babies or dunk the adults? In a lively yet amicable discourse hosted by the Bible Dingers, Chris Roseboro and Corey Miner dive deep into the waters of baptism. Chris, waving the Lutheran flag, presents his case for infant baptism using a combination of biblical verses and historical church practices. Meanwhile, Corey stands firm on the side of believers' baptism, asserting that a personal decision and profession of faith should precede the symbolic act.

With glasses perched and Bibles open, they explore key scriptures, tossing verses like Acts 2:38 and Titus 3 back and forth. Chris unpacks how baptism plays a pivotal role in God’s saving grace, even for infants, weaving through historical church teachings. Corey, on the other hand, points to passages suggesting faith and repentance must guide one to the baptismal font, critiquing the notion of baptism as a means of salvation without personal consent.

Despite their theological jousting, the vibe is brotherly and respectful. As they splash through contentious waters, both agree on the importance of baptism in Christian faith, just diverging on the ‘when’ and ‘how.’ No chairs were thrown, no harsh words said, just a lively debate leaving viewers with much to ponder, a testament to how doctrinal debates can be both informative and civil.

Chapters

• 00:00 - 00:30: Introduction The introduction features the hosts of Bible Dingers, Ryan and Nick, live streaming from Brooklyn, New York City. They welcome the audience and introduce the topic of discussion: baptism. The hosts pose a question regarding whether baptism is appropriate for babies or if it should be reserved for consenting adults.
• 00:30 - 02:30: Guests Introduction and Topic Discussion The chapter introduces two special guests, Chris Roseboro and Corey Miner, who have joined the discussion. The host expresses gratitude for their participation. The conversation is set up to be an exciting discussion rather than a formal debate, as indicated to the audience in the chat.
• 02:30 - 12:15: Chris Roseboro's Perspective The chapter titled 'Chris Roseboro's Perspective' revolves around a friendly and respectful dialogue among Christian brothers. Despite having differing views on certain non-primary doctrines, they engage in loving conversations to explore and understand these differences. The focus of the chapter is on the collective immersion in the Scriptures, as they open their Bibles and share truths with one another. This interaction underscores the importance of unity and love in the face of doctrinal diversity, emphasizing that such discussions are an opportunity to be sprinkled with scriptural truths.
• 12:15 - 21:00: Corey Miner's Response and Perspective The chapter titled 'Corey Miner's Response and Perspective' starts with an introduction to a conversational setting focused on helping Christians navigate secondary issues. The emphasis is on fostering direct dialogue rather than discussing one another behind their backs. It signals a desire for constructive discourse, with Chris Roseboro set to begin the conversation, indicating a structured and respectful discussion platform.
• 21:00 - 55:00: Discussion on Theology and Baptism Practices The chapter titled 'Discussion on Theology and Baptism Practices' begins with an invitation to Corey to share their beliefs regarding theology and baptism. The host encourages interaction with the audience, asking for baptism-related puns in the chat. Corey is preparing to share their screen to assist with the discussion. The chapter sets the stage for an engaging conversation on personal beliefs related to theology and baptism within a live stream context.
• 55:00 - 77:00: Q&A Session with Chat Members The chapter titled 'Q&A Session with Chat Members' discusses a personal account of an individual who identifies as a Lutheran against their will, primarily due to the doctrine of baptism. Initially pursuing a degree in religious studies and biblical languages, the individual was surrounded by Lutherans at Concordia University Irvine but identified as a Nazarene and Evangelical while working at Focus on the Family.
• 77:00 - 78:00: Conclusion and Closing Remarks The speaker reflects on their academic success but also shares a personal challenge they faced when questioned about their beliefs in baptism. They express frustration at not being able to defend their belief in Believer's Baptism, which they see as symbolic and an act of obedience to Christ's command.

@smartchristians & @Fighting4theFaith Disagree LIVE on Infant Baptism Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 yo yo yo welcome to another live stream we are live here in Brooklyn New York City my name is Ryan one of the hosts of Bible dingers I am here with my best friend Nick what's up everybody and uh tonight we got a really fun live stream for you guys we're going to be talking about baptism whether you can be a baby and be baptized or if you have to be a consenting adult to be baptized
• 00:30 - 01:00 uh and so we have two wonderful guests that we very thankful for jumping on tonight we pull them up right now with no further Ado Chris Roseboro and Corey Miner how you doing fellas doing great been wonderful awesome awesome well like I said man thank you guys for jumping on I think uh I think we have a really exciting conversation and just so you guys know in the chat uh we don't do formal debates here we have
• 01:00 - 01:30 conversations loving conversations among brothers in Christ all right we all love each other here we're all Christians here and we're just working through these doctrines that we may not agree on uh but we are these are not primary doctrines right these are these are doctrines that we can have conversations about yeah we're really going to open up our Bibles today and immerse ourselves in the scriptures and these guys are going going to sprinkle us with truth
• 01:30 - 02:00 today and uh I know all of you want to go ahead and get started so what we're going to do is like we said we're going to have a conversation the reason Bible dingers exist is to show the world how Christians are supposed to navigate these secondary issues so often people like to talk about one another but here on this channel we want to talk to each other so we'll open it up and uh Chris Roseboro you can go first and then we'll
• 02:00 - 02:30 kick it over to Corey you guys can take 5 10 minutes and just go ahead and tell our audience what you believe and why all right hang on a second here I'm gonna share my screen because I can't do this without a bite all right right second Here There and while he does that make sure you hit us with those baptism puns in the chat right now so uh thank you guys for having me on and Corey it's just a pleasure to uh to do this live stream with you so let
• 02:30 - 03:00 let me say this I am a Lutheran against my will and baptism was the doctrine that drugged me into it uh and so I I'm Bound by what the scriptures say back when I was uh doing my Prem degree uh getting a degree in religious studies and biblical languages from Concordia University Irvine uh there I was around a whole bunch of lutherans and I wasn't a Lutheran I I was a Nazarene and an Evangelical and I was working at Focus on the Family
• 03:00 - 03:30 and uh I I have to say this I was besting all of them in as far as grades were concerned but what was really annoying me was the fact that when they would turn the questions back on me regarding baptism I wasn't able to defend myself and I wasn't able to defend the position that I held to I believed in Believers baptism I believe that baptism was only a um a symbol and I believed that you did it out of obedience to Christ's command to be B baptized and that it was a public
• 03:30 - 04:00 profession that you've made a decision for Jesus or going public with your faith this is what I staunchly believe and when my uh my colleagues in college uh they they would challenge me and say well here's here's a Bible that I would actually toss over a Greek New Testament and say show us that in the scripture and I'd say well it's in there somewhere well where is it and well it's in there and then they would pull out a Biblical text and they would you know like Acts
• 04:00 - 04:30 chapter 2 you know repent and be baptized for the Forgiveness of your sins and and they'd say well what about that text I said well it doesn't mean that well if it doesn't mean what it says what does it mean I don't know what it means but it doesn't mean that is what I was convinced them and then by the time I was a third-year Greek student at Concordia Irvine uh my professor in my third-year Greek readings class had us translating through Titus chap the entire epistle
• 04:30 - 05:00 and uh about October of that year I was translating through Titus Chapter 3 and came across words that I could not deny and uh in Titus Chapter 3 it specifically says but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our savior appeared he saved us God is doing the saving here not because of Works done by us and righteousness but according to his own Mercy by the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Spirit whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ Our Savior and when
• 05:00 - 05:30 I got to the DIA Clause here the the Clause that shows the agency or the means by which God did the saving it was through the washing so Dia lutu polyus is what it says here and when I looked up the word lutu which is the Greek word Lutron it's very clear what this is referring to it's a bath or a washing it's a baptism for ceremonial usage uh the only thing that this can be
• 05:30 - 06:00 referencing then is baptism itself and when I uh was reading through that text and translating it God saved us Dia lutu polyus de through the washing of regeneration at that point I realized that what these lutherans annoyingly believed was true and that is is that God actually does things in baptism and it's not a mere symbol and so from there that launched me into uh a a more
• 06:00 - 06:30 in-depth study of baptism but also led me into uh to be a confessional Lutheran and so when we talk about baptism you in in order to have a Biblical Doctrine I know this is going to sound crazy you have to actually have biblical texts to back up your Doctrine otherwise it's not biblical so the concept that um that baptism is something I do to show the world that I've made a decision for Jesus that's nowhere found in scripture there are no texts that say it instead there's a collection of texts that I've put together here and I'll I'll even
• 06:30 - 07:00 reference a PDF that I make available to people but let's just walk through some of these texts Acts chapter 2 on the great day of Pentecost uh when the people had heard the preaching of the Apostle Peter they the text says in verse 37 they were cut to the heart and they said to Peter and to the rest of the Apostles Brothers what shall we do and so Peter says to them repent and be baptized and I would know Baptist baptisto here is a passive it's an ar ar
• 07:00 - 07:30 passive be baptized which means it's being done to you repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ and here's the reason for the Forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and then you'll know so we have promises here when you are baptized you receive the Forgiveness of your sins and you receive the gift of the holy spirit this text is clear and then he says this the promise is for you and for your
• 07:30 - 08:00 children and there's no way around this this text tells us who baptism is for it is for everybody including children and all who are far off and everyone whom the Lord Our God Falls to himself and we've already taken a look at Titus Chapter 3 this was the text that drugged me into a completely different understanding of baptism and then I would note that this also makes sense if you were to think about it because back in the uh Mosaic Covenant uh infants
• 08:00 - 08:30 were brought into the Covenant and actually via the abrahamic Covenant they were brought into the Covenant on the eth day and this is when uh boys were circumcised this had nothing to do with them making a free will decision to join the Mosaic Covenant uh they were made members of the Covenant uh at 8 days old and uh and I would note that scripture makes it clear that baptism is the uh circumcision that is done by Christ for
• 08:30 - 09:00 uh for Christians here's what it says in Colossians 2 in him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands so this is a reference to the Hands of Christ by putting off the body of Flesh by the circumcision of Christ having been buried with him with Christ in baptism in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God who raised him from the dead and you who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh God has made you alive
• 09:00 - 09:30 together with him with Christ having forgiven all of our trespasses by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands so here we have a text that basically is taking the imagery of circumcision of the Old Testament and saying that when when somebody is baptized they are being circumcised by Christ himself he's the hands who were is performing the circumcision and if you would the circumcision of the heart and then this also comports very well with like the
• 09:30 - 10:00 the the accounts of the conversion of the Apostle Paul when he was still Saul of Tarsus in one of the accounts in Acts 22 uh Paul G recounts his conversion says ananas a devout man according to the law well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there he came to me standing by me uh and said brother Saul receive your sight and at that very hour I received my sight and I saw him and he said the god of our fathers appointed you to uh to know his will and to see the righteous one and to hear a voice
• 10:00 - 10:30 from his mouth and for you will be a witness for him to everyone of what you have seen and what you have heard and now why do you wait rise and be baptized wash away your sins calling on his name you'll note that PA Paul's understanding of baptism is absolutely consistent with the Apostle Peter's the baptism is for the Forgiveness of sins the receiving of the Holy Spirit God is the one working is is it any Wonder then later in Romans chapter 6 Paul says do you not know that
• 10:30 - 11:00 all of us who have been baptized into Christ we were baptized into his death and we were buried therefore with him by baptism into death in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the father we too might walk in newness of life and so you'll know Paul doesn't refer to baptism as some kind of mere symbol uh nor should he because it's very clear from the apostolic record in the New Testament that baptism is God's work not the work of man and that he promises promises us things that
• 11:00 - 11:30 are associated with our baptism and it's him that is doing the work um Paul goes on to say if we've been United with him like a death like his we shall certainly be United with him in a resurrection like his and that uniting took place in the waters of baptism and then I would also note and this is the one that I think is kind of the Ace in the whole is that Peter himself is very consistent from Acts chapter 2 all the way to his first epistle uh in Acts chap first Peter chapter 3 starting at Verse 18
• 11:30 - 12:00 Peter writes Christ also suffered once for all uh once for the sins uh the righteous for the unrighteous so that he might bring us to God note who's doing the work here though not us God Christ is bringing us to God being put to Death In the Flesh in the uh but made alive in the spirit uh in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison because they forly did not obey when God's patience waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared in which a few that is eight persons were
• 12:00 - 12:30 brought safely through water and so he's referencing the flood here and this is baptism which corresponds to this in the Greek it's an anti-upa this is an antitype uh the the flood is the type baptism is the antitype and I would note baptisma here that's the nominative which means it's the subject of the sentence and the subject of the verbs that follow baptism which corresponds to this or as an antitype of this he says nun now what it saves it saves aves you
• 12:30 - 13:00 not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience so at at its core we would note then that baptism is God's work it's for the Forgiveness of sins the receiving of the Holy Spirit and Peter makes it very clear that um it it the the promises that are associated with baptism are for you and for your children and then I think later we can talk about maybe Acts chapter 10 where entire households are are baptized entire families in the days before there was uh a birth control and things like
• 13:00 - 13:30 that but that's why I believe what I believe okay cool uh so we'll C kick it over to Corey so obviously Chris Roseboro uh believes in infant baptism just to be clear for those of you who are in the chat and now we'll kick it over to Corey who believes in Believers baptism full immersion um so go ahead and and explain your position Corey okay and I'll do this I won't I won't share my screen just yet uh but I think the issue with as it relates to
• 13:30 - 14:00 baptism and obviously the the issue for many is going to be is baptism what saves uh or is it something that we should do obviously there's debate there you can go to the far reaches of the world and you'll find Scholars uh who are just going to disree they can see the exact same text what was interesting is some of the very same text that Chris brought up would be some of the same text that I would bring up but I would see them and use them differently and I've seen I've seen seen Scholars I've seen people that
• 14:00 - 14:30 could um that can walk a mile around probably all of us uh in in their Greek understanding and believe this and I've seen some who had the same extensive knowledge of Greek uh and church history that would believe that and so the issue for me has got to be do I have a particular mandate from the scriptures that tells me that one baptism saves uh and then two does that also follow that infants who can't make a decision children who can't make a decision do is
• 14:30 - 15:00 a decision made upon them and I understand and so one of the interesting things is going to be is just kind of how how this all practically Works to me it doesn't seem like it like it works practically and it seems like it violates certain scriptures such as Ephesians 2 when we know and other passages we'll cover later that speak of Salvation being of of Faith uh and seem to be faith alone uh and so for me and I won't take up all five or 10 minutes so that we can go ahead and get into the conversation but for me it just seems to go counter too scripture I don't find it necessarily to be U biblical and I don't
• 15:00 - 15:30 find that in infant baptism even fits the definition of scriptural baptism and so for that reason I just I just don't don't um follow I don't believe that infant baptism now I don't have a problem with people baptizing their uh their babies uh but I've got a I've got a it brings about a larger problem as we go further and I know we're going to jump into that as we go and so just so we can go ahead and jump into it now I'll go ahead and let's go ahead and jump into our actual discussions yeah I
• 15:30 - 16:00 like it I like it so uh Corey we'll start with you because I think Chris gave a number of verses there so do you have do you take issue with the way that he's interpreting any of those verses brought up well and and I know you could find commentary you can find Scholars uh who disagree um at I I am at um DTS and there are there's obviously there there's a lot of Greek Scholars there um and I can name two that that differ and
• 16:00 - 16:30 they both know the Greek and teach it uh but one I'll never forget the first one that I that I met he's not a DTS but um he is I met him while I was on my on my federal tour visiting some of America's greatest penal institutions and he was an actual scholar matter of fact he actually uh helped to write uh or or contribute to revisiting the corruption of the Greek New Testament and he introduced this phrase or this statement that I also bring to the people uh in the chat I mean on my channel this
• 16:30 - 17:00 EP exotical use of the kai and so when I look at second second acts 238 to me I don't see uh I'm using this way I'm not seeing a if do this and then this and then this follows and let me see if I can go ahead and share my SC okay hold on y'all y'all bear with me I'm I'm gon do my best this okay nothing happened okay there is um I got to figure out which okay there should be a little uh
• 17:00 - 17:30 it looks like a little monitor icon on make a decision I did look at it I did it there we go all right okay so he says uh Peter said to them uh repent each of you and be baptized and so here I'm using this this Kai because there every at some point in time the kai doesn't mean and it means also or even and so now obviously uh Chris and I will disagree on this but in this case uh I see this as really saying repent each of you uh being being baptized and I I
• 17:30 - 18:00 understand that this is not necessarily being this is not a um a participle this is the bapti this is an imperative and so the command is to be baptized but so to also is is repent and I think all of that leads to or is part of this is one one act that obviously I think is done by the Lord uh that brings about the gift of the holy spirit being baptized and the question raised that I've always wondered uh which baptizing is are we speaking of is are we speaking of a spiritual bapt AP ISM are we speaking of
• 18:00 - 18:30 a water baptism and the reason why I think it's important to to figure it out uh is because Jesus as well as John uh makes a a a contrast when we look at the gospel we look at Matthew 3 I'm sorry is it Matthew 3 uh Matthew where I make sure I got it m Matthew 311 or Mark Matthew 3:11 Luke 3:16 uh same thing just in Acts 1 15 where he says that I John I baptize you with water and that he makes a distinction But Here Comes
• 18:30 - 19:00 Jesus and he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit uh I don't think that it follows that every single person that John the Baptist baptized in water uh was saved even though this was a baptism of repentance I think though that every single person that Jesus who is the one that does the baptizing I think that every single person that he's ever baptized in the holy spirit that person is saved the identifying Mark of of a Believer is the holy spirit we come up with the qualities of what we were baptized into and so therefore I read acts 238 uh differently than
• 19:00 - 19:30 Chris I don't see him as saying that you must first repent then you must be baptized and then you receive the Holy Spirit uh I think that that is all kind of part and partial that's all kind of cumulative and so Chris would disagree I'm I'm sure but that's how I read acts 238 yeah what are your thoughts on that Chris so um so Corey I understand uh in fact let's let's can I
• 19:30 - 20:00 share since you didn't mess up by sharing your screen you were concerned about that and you did you did just fine you have to you have to relinquish the the screen so that I can share I do how do I do that I'm sorry okay all right hang on a second here entire screen so I I would note um that focusing on the kai seems to be kind of missing the point and so
• 20:00 - 20:30 um so I've actually put a PDF together called what the Bible teaches about baptism and how the earliest Christians understood these biblical texts I think the uh the ancient Church knew full well what baptism was all about and uh when we get to Acts chapter 2 all right and uh then you know we've already read the text repent and be baptize every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the Forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and then the promises for you and for your
• 20:30 - 21:00 children I would note so for instance Barnabas like the the the companion of the Apostle Paul in his epistle uh the Epistle of Barnabas dated 74 ad he he references this text regarding baptism we we have the evidence of scripture that Israel would refuse to accept the washing which confers the remission of sins and would set up a substitution of their own instead observe there how he describes both the water and the cross
• 21:00 - 21:30 in the same figure his meaning is blessed are those who go down into the water with their hopes set on the cross here he is saying after we have stepped down into the water burdened with sin and defilement we come up out of it bearing fruit with reverence in our hearts and hope of Jesus in our souls what I also think is fascinating here is is that this reference is also referenced by The Shepherd of heras and uh and so in The Shepherd of hermas again a first century document I have
• 21:30 - 22:00 heard sir said I to the Shepherd from some teacher that there is no other repentance except for that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins he said to me you have heard rightly for so it is araneus also affirms that baptism referencing this text is for the remission of sins he does that in against heresies as well as his demonstration of the apostolic preaching referencing the fact that it's for the uh for forgiveness of sins and then I would note that cyprian of
• 22:00 - 22:30 Carthage okay he also affirms that it's for the remission of sins but in a letter dated uh around 2 53 ad this is a fascinating thing uh there was a a pastor by the name of fedus who came up with an idea of waiting to baptize infants until they were eight days old in order to kind of make it synchronize with the uh the Mosaic rule regarding uh regarding Bap circumcision of infants on
• 22:30 - 23:00 the eth day so here's what Cy of car cartha says and you're going to not he doesn't he doesn't sit there and go wait what you're baptizing infants you need to stop that instead here's what he says as as what pertains to the case of infants e fedus said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth that that the Old Law of circumcision must be taken into consideration and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eth day after his birth in
• 23:00 - 23:30 our counsel it seemed to us far otherwise no one agreed on to the course which you thought should be taken rather we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought not to be Deni denied to no man born if in the case of the worst Sinners and those who formerly sinned much against God then afterward they believe the remission of their sins is granted and no one is held back from baptism and Grace how much more then should an infant not be held back who has who having but recently been born
• 23:30 - 24:00 and done no sin except that born of the flesh according to Adam he has contracted the contagion of that old death from his first being born for this very reason does he an infant approach more easily to receive the remission of sins because the sins forgiven him are not his own but that of another and so I would note that um that Corey's understanding of Acts chapter too I I would note that it's not in sync with
• 24:00 - 24:30 the the ancient Church even the Apostle Barnabas so let me ask so so let me ask you this question then uh what does the infant getting baptized receive does he receive eternal life yes okay and so against his will because it certainly isn't in in concert with his will because he doesn't necessarily know what's what's happening and so that I'm sorry go ahead yeah you're absolutely correct and I think that's
• 24:30 - 25:00 where uh I think the uh the rub for a lot of people is and so let me ask you this Corey how does somebody become a Christian by placing their faith in Christ they act an active their will they that's how they become a Christian well I think that I think there's more to it I I I gave the uh the basic version you must place your faith in Christ I do think uh person that there is something working um even prior to you even being born uh that would
• 25:00 - 25:30 cause you I think that there this regener this regeneration of the heart um because I don't think that the gospel that falls on an unregenerate heart uh is going to uh result in Saving Faith as a matter of fact Jesus makes that point in luke8 and so you ha obviously you have to have faith in Christ um but having a mental understanding of what Christ has done uh with a with a bad heart well then that puts you squarely in the same position as it does devils uh or even atheist or a Bart IR or
• 25:30 - 26:00 someone like that so they can they can articulate exactly what we believe and there are some that we know that even believe that intellectually theyve made some sort of mental desent that yeah I believe all those things but they don't have the same sort of saving Faith they may say you I believe all those things and I think I'm a Christian I believe I am but we know people who think that uh but they're not and so the issue is their heart and so that's a work of of God and so I think the act of being born again uh as Peter says that is something
• 26:00 - 26:30 that is caused by God that is we were caused to be born again and so the person that places faith in Christ without without a regenerate heart that person is not going to be saved that person is not saved and so I think but for in terms of what we do or or what what comes from us is our faith in Christ and and the for the infant that's that's lacking so how how do we get past that okay so let's let me uh me point out a couple of things so um I am a
• 26:30 - 27:00 monist okay which means that I believe that when Christ's gospel comes to people they are dead in trespasses and sins in fact you've referenced Ephesians 2 in your opening statement I think we might want to spend a little time on that and the idea then is is that God has to regenerate us and he regenerates us through means um so let let's kind of basically work this out in John chapter six Christ says I have come down from
• 27:00 - 27:30 heaven and Jesus answered themo not Grumble among yourselves no one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day so the uh the word for draw by the way is the Greek uh verb heluo and of course I have to make this readable because I have eyes but I want you to consider what huo means so it gets translated as draws in the ESV but um the the uh the meaning of Hu is this to move an object from one area to another
• 27:30 - 28:00 in a pulling motion or to draw with the implication that the object being moved is incapable of propelling itself or in the case of persons is unwilling to do so voluntarily in either case with the implication of the exertion on the part of the Mover so Christ says no one can come to me unless the father who sent me and I think a better translation of how cool would be unless the father who sent me drags him and so that being the case
• 28:00 - 28:30 um you know no sinner is capable of regenerating themselves they have to be regenerated by God himself and then I would note that um you know another text in John and then I'll show you one in in uh the book of uh Luke uh is that uh here we have this wonderful passage John 1 uh to all who received him who believed in his name he gave the right to become children of God who were born not of blood nor of the will of the
• 28:30 - 29:00 flesh nor of the will of man but born of God to be born again is not according to this text an exertion of human will in fact go when the gospel comes to us our the only thing we're going to say is no and so everybody who is saved God has miraculously saved them and then I would note that the the the John the Baptist he received the Holy Spirit In Utero
• 29:00 - 29:30 even before he was born and uh and there was there was no Act of his will on that part at all so when we talk about baptism it's one of one of the means of Grace it isn't the soul means of Grace which then fits into why it it is spoken of so highly by the apostles as uh as you you in your baptism you receive the Forgiveness of your sins you receive the Holy Spirit Christ received the holy spirit in his baptism um it's it's it
• 29:30 - 30:00 you're United with Christ in his death and his resurrection and uh and as Titus 3 says that you you God saved us Dia through the washing of regeneration and polyus by the way uh the word that we translate is regeneration that only appears twice in the New Testament once in regard to God recreating the new Earth and the second is in regard to actual regeneration of a sinner and the baptism itself is described as the
• 30:00 - 30:30 washing of regeneration so everybody who is a Christian then is a Christian by God's powerful saving work uh through the means of Grace and baptism is just one of them and so a person who is so an infant is baptized that person is saved I also now you believe in eternal security correct or the no not at all you don't okay so so so infant is baptized today he's saved today and then he's no longer saved later on yeah that
• 30:30 - 31:00 can happen absolutely so at what point does he does he become unsaved so uh scripture is going to give two different reasons why somebody would go down the road of losing faith uh so the Apostle Paul he warns the galatian church in uh Galatians chapter is it five or six uh starting at verse 4 he says you who would be justified by the law you've been alienated from Christ and you have fallen from Grace Christ
• 31:00 - 31:30 himself in the parable of the soils specifically describes a certain seed falling on a rocky soil and it comes up they they're Believers but because of the uh difficulties of this world and and things like that they fall away so scripture kind of warns in two different directions when it comes to falling away from Faith one is apostasy belief in a different Jesus a different Spirit a different gospel apostasy can lead you down the road to hell and then the
• 31:30 - 32:00 second is going to be persistent impenitent sin uh can can gnaw away at your faith and cause you to leave Christianity altogether and I think I'm sorry go ahead those would be the two cases where somebody would lose Faith so maybe maybe we should had that conversation I don't see how it's possible for a person who has the spirit of God um to Ever Fall Away to ever apostas eyesee um but I know of so many
• 32:00 - 32:30 people who have been baptized and are no are I mean as an infant um who are not Christians and so does it also follow that those people who are not baptized but a place their faith in Christ that they are also not Christian no not at all so um so the idea then is is that baptism being one of the means of Grace I would go to Acts chapter 19 where you have these fellows who are already Disciples of Christ uh but they only knew of the baptis ISM of John the Baptist and they didn't even know that
• 32:30 - 33:00 there was a Holy Spirit uh and uh and so they already have faith and so they then are baptized with a proper Christian baptism but uh but had they died before their baptism absolutely they're saved so baptism being one of the means of Grace one of the means by which some God will take uh what Christ has accomplished on the on the cross and apply it to a person and regenerate them bring them to faith in Christ um the other is through the preaching gospel so uh both of those will result in somebody
• 33:00 - 33:30 being saved even if they're not baptized you know and conversely if somebody's baptized you'll note that Christ's command in in Matthew 28 is um to make disciples of all Nations baptizing teaching in the name of the father Son and the Holy Spirit baptism and teaching have to go together those people who think that baptism is like a fire insurance policy and they just go and get their child baptized but they don't bring him to church they're not instructed in the faith they're not taught the word of God they never hear the gospel uh then the gifts that God
• 33:30 - 34:00 has given them they they're they just P them away they don't make so that that child that is baptized that infant that's baptized and his parents because I've seen it happen a lot too that infant that's baptized his parents don't take him to the church they're not bringing him up in the word what happens to him then they they're in danger of losing their faith and and and that's that's just how that works but what about the infant what about the infant the infant the the the infant has to be
• 34:00 - 34:30 instructed in in as a disciple of Christ so teaching is is absolutely necessary especially when somebody's been baptized but as an infant he he's not he's not catching anything so we figure for the first uh if he if he's baptized as soon as he can be baptized as an infant what are we figuring two a year two years before he could even begin to my two-year-old grandson is in there and my foury my four-year-old can pick up some things uh the two-year-old uh not so much and so at what Point um do we say okay he's good he's good to go it's now
• 34:30 - 35:00 on on him at what point does he get out of the either out of the danger zone or I guess Into the Danger Zone at what point in time does he begin to learn and have to be taught so you you you begin instructing your children like immediately I would note that in you know even infants uh they they have to be instructed and so they are instructed in the basics of what is right and what is wrong what is acceptable what is not acceptable and
• 35:00 - 35:30 developmental uh developmental ability is no indicator as to whether or not somebody can have Christian faith uh God is the one who raises people from the dead and gives them faith that being the case um you know so the idea then is is that anybody who baptizes their infant and then brings them to church and is instructing them they're raising them as Christians they're not raising them as potential Christians but as Christians those who have been brought from Death
• 35:30 - 36:00 To Life who've been United with Christ his death and his resurrection who have had their sins forgiven and they have receiv received the Holy Spirit so that go ahead so because I'm now now now um now I'm interviewing I'm interviewing you so here's my question by the way this this is an actual uh this is an actual scenario Grandma um her son is basically uh uh the the Son and the daughter I mean the mother and the father of the child
• 36:00 - 36:30 they're not all they're not they're not the greatest people okay uh grandma has the baby for I don't know the a few weeks or part of the summer she goes to church um she's not necessarily uh the best of Christians um people in the church question her maybe she is maybe she's not but she wants to get uh the little grandbaby baptized brings a baby up baby gets baptized baby goes home not not with her now he goes home to her atheist
• 36:30 - 37:00 mother and and his Muslim father so what then for that particular baby this is this is a true story so then what happens to that that particular baby that baby certainly is not being brought up in any sort of teaching yeah no you're right and and that child is in danger of losing their faith but I would note that God has a way of breaking through so for instance I was I was baptized as an infant I was baptized on Epiphany Sunday of in the year 1969 at St John the Baptist Roman
• 37:00 - 37:30 Catholic church and uh and lutherans don't quible you know whoever does the baptism as long as it's trinitarian baptism accounts and then I would note my parents divorced when I was three they were both excommunicated from the Roman Catholic church and I was not brought up in the Christian faith at all um and and until a series of circumstances let I would say God drug me to a Christian School and um and
• 37:30 - 38:00 there was the first time I had ever heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ heard that Jesus had bled and died for my sins and I got to tell you it absolutely wrecked me but God used the preaching of the Gospel through the free methodists that I would that the church at the school I was attending to rekindle the faith that he had given me even though I hadn't I hadn't set fruit in a church except for a Roman Catholic Church that my my grandparents would drag me to uh when I anyway irrespective of you you being
• 38:00 - 38:30 baptized as an infant would that not have happened anyway I don't know I I I see this as a providential hand of God and I I the one thing I can absolutely tell you is that once I myself profess faith in Christ and my faith became something that I was able to apprehend uh all hell broke loose in my house my dad uh he he was a fellow who called himself a Christian atheist he uh he he was he studied under JJ
• 38:30 - 39:00 altiers in the 1960s and uh believed in the the God is dead movement the theonas and so he set out to destroy my faith and so all I can say is is that once the teaching met with the baptism then my faith really went into you know into into overdrive and whether or not um I I had any faith by the time I heard the the gospel that was left I I couldn't
• 39:00 - 39:30 say because I was pretty much like every Pagan Garden variety public school kid uh you know growing up in the in the in the late 70s early 80s so yeah so so what you because what you connected earlier was that even when you when we use we talked about in John 6 um this drawing oh by the way I I agree the same way now it it does it does my mind is all over the place because you you you bring up some things in regards to God
• 39:30 - 40:00 drawing them but then them moving away or apostasis later and so my mind is in four different places outside of this baptism talk but so in that in that in that discussion though they come to Christ and so those that are baptized or those that are LED or what have you they there there always is this profession uh of Christ there's all there always is this acknowledgment um this consenting or like said earlier this of a
• 40:00 - 40:30 consenting adult there's always this consenting of the person that is being baptized but in but in your case in this case the infant baptizing uh there is no consenting and that seems to be a huge break with a person having to do so and then be baptized okay so this is where I think a good conversation about uh Ephesians 2 would be helpful okay so I'm gonna I'm going to pull up my screen again and you
• 40:30 - 41:00 can interrupt me at any time since we're having a conversation this isn't a formal debate I'm interviewing you you're interviewing thanks for doing our job Cory we appreciate it he's doing he's doing such a good job I don't even have to say a word right but I do think we should narrow down this conversation maybe open up a Biblical text and then offer both of your hermeneutic to it so maybe can we go to Ephesians and spend the rest of the time there and see where it goes do we have a time limit I mean this a great conversation I say midnight
• 41:00 - 41:30 maybe two in the morning or yeah three in the morning a break for dinner got I've got about another 30 or so minutes um uh my my uh my one two my third my third oldest child just got back from Africa um my second oldest and her husband they're doing some things um moving they're going to um a bunch of stuff is happening and so I probably got about 30 or so minutes okay so let's do this
• 41:30 - 42:00 let's uh let's talk Ephesians 2 for the next 10 15 minutes and then what we're going to do is we're going to open up the last 15 or so minutes for uh live chat questions is that cool you guys before we go to Ephesians 2 let me also throw this in your mics I I want to I've got a question also that you also may want I'll I'll let you throw it in how how you want to Chris but one of the things that I also thought about though in this um and then listening to others is is is two things one um we don't see
• 42:00 - 42:30 children or infants being baptized in in the Bible and so I I would like for you to to kind of deal with that also and then this issue of being baptized the the the actual immersion we are are you for does the infant have to be sprinkled or is he just is he thoroughly dipped is he immersed also and so those are two elements that I that I also would love to hear you um deal with as well so I I would know not that um I would take a
• 42:30 - 43:00 strong disagreement with your claim that we don't have any examples of infants being baptized um we in Acts chapter 16 we have two examples of entire households being uh baptized um and keep in mind this is in the days before birth control so acts 16 the conversion of Lydia um so it says one who heard us was a woman named Lydia from the city of thyra a seller of purple Goods who was a worshipper of God and the Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul after she was baptized and
• 43:00 - 43:30 her household as well and so you'll note that uh her entire household is baptized but who's her household though who who are that's going to that's going to include her kids it's going to include her husband it's G to include well it does okay so so just like um um oh Lord what's her name um uh Rahab was saved her household she didn't have a husband or children and so household so could it be her father and mother her siblings so
• 43:30 - 44:00 I think what's happening is we wouldn't we wouldn't we be injecting onto the text what's not there uh I I don't think so it's absolutely fair to say that household is going to include uh children and I would note that Christ himself makes it clear that nobody is is permitted into the kingdom of God unless they have the faith of an infant Faith but but I guess what I'm asking so so or my household my household uh I've got children none of them are infants so why
• 44:00 - 44:30 how do we know the age let's say one we're presupposing she does have children um to we're presupposing that we know the age of the children no actually here's the deal what we do know is that Peter said that the promises of baptism are for you and for your children and so in that expansive explanation that Peter gives in Acts chapter 2 who it's for when when we see household baptisms and then the other one is in acts 16:33 the Phil Philippian Jailer uh he
• 44:30 - 45:00 took them at the same hour and washed their wounds and then he the Philippian Jailer was baptized at once he and all of his family so the idea then is actually quite simple it's it's absolutely reasonable to say these household baptisms absolutely permitted children and I would note this that there is no prohibition for children being baptized in the New Testament at all not one okay so in those in those texts and so with Cornelius the Jailer the that the jeller uh Crispus Lydia
• 45:00 - 45:30 stephanus these people where we're talking about their whole households um these are also people that were believing and so they had they had a profession they had an understanding of God of the Lord and were baptized and so so but with an infant though there is no profession there is no understanding there is no receiving of the word and and again that that that that's after we we even can agree that there were infants there because many households I IM many people in the chats have a household where the children aren't
• 45:30 - 46:00 infant where the child they might have a child there who might be 14 who might be 18 who might be in my case uh my youngest right now is is uh what is she 18 uh and so uh all households don't necessarily you know we don't we're not we don't know are we catching Lydia who is who's a 20-some year old mother we don't we don't know we don't know if she's mother we don't know if she's married text I mention anything about her her husband but it does mention that that she was that that she believed open her heart and she and she so we're talking about people that believed and so how do we then go from um the text
• 46:00 - 46:30 not saying so and then imposing on the text that she is married maybe happily married uh and that she's got children and the children are are infants because the difference would be if the child is is 12 versus two or one right now I'll be blunt the text doesn't say so but it's not unreasonable to say that that would include infants if there were any because again there's no prohibition about baptizing infants I would again point to the fact that this is not out of line with worship of Yahweh because
• 46:30 - 47:00 you had infants being brought into the Mosaic Covenant that didn't require their consent at all U and required a particular procedure the circumcision procedure which I already pointed out in Colossians 2 is equated then with baptism uh circum circumcision is the type and Shadow of baptism and circumcision was done to infants so and then let's come back then to Ephesians 2 because I think this is going to be a critical conversation we I've already pointed out that no one can come to to
• 47:00 - 47:30 Christ unless the father drags him huos him and this is absolutely consistent with what the Apostle Paul teaches in Ephesians 2 so in and you're familiar with the kaym that is occurring in verses 1-1 uh the idea in a kaym it's a Hebrew outline where uh what is stated here in the beginning portion of Ephesians 2:1 is stated again in its opposite down at the at the other end so that kind of goes down in a vshape but here's what Paul says and you were dead
• 47:30 - 48:00 uh not note the necr here you were dead in trespasses and sins in which you once walked following the course of this world following the prince of the power of the air the spirit that is now at work in the sons of Disobedience among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh carrying out the desires of the body and the mind and we were by Nature children of Wrath like the rest of mankind that is the state of all of humanity before they uh before God regenerates them and dead is dead dead
• 48:00 - 48:30 isn't mostly dead you know this isn't like you know The Princess Bride this is not mostly dead we're dead dead dead dooby dooby dead and so but then you'll note that uh great word here but okay uh but God so here in the Greek um God is the uh is the is the in the nominative so God is going to be doing the verbs here and there's some interesting verbs that also make o only appearances in
• 48:30 - 49:00 this text as well as Colossians 2 but here's what it says but God being rich in Mercy because of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead in our trespasses made us alive together with Christ so here's your first verb and God is in the nominative so God's doing the doing here uh suo po okay which is a kind of a mouthful to be made alive together with is what this is it's kind of a Lego word and God is the one who
• 49:00 - 49:30 made us alive together with Christ by Grace you have been saved and raised us up with him here's your second ver raised us up with him sunano is is the is the lexical form of it God raised us up with Christ and then the third is seated us with him um and uh the su su catho seated us with him so God did the doing he made us alive he
• 49:30 - 50:00 seated us with Christ and uh and he raised us up with Christ God is doing the doing right so when we get to the next part for by Grace you have been saved through faith and this is not your own doing it's the gift of God the immediate question is what's not your own doing what's the gift of God the answer is actually quite clear in the Greek it's the whole kitten Kaboodle uh the grace the Salvation all of it even
• 50:00 - 50:30 being made alive together with Christ all of that is God's doing it's not the result of works so that no one may boast and we already saw in John 1 uh being born born again is not being born by the will of a human being but God is the one who raises them from the dead that being the case whether or not somebody is cognitively able to make an Ascent that's not the point that would make it dependent upon them and their own Works
• 50:30 - 51:00 God is the one who gives faith and he gives it to whomever he wills and that means he can give it to infants he can give it to adults and I would note it's I think it's harder for an adult to become a Christian than it is for an infant um you know because they're so easily given the gift by God whereas adults I mean they have they have an entire life time of sin and their own reasons that they come up with to not believe uh you know when you present them with the gospel whereas infants don't and so you'll note that this being
• 51:00 - 51:30 made alive together with Christ and God raising us up God's doing the verbs and then I would note in Colossians 2 uh the section that we read uh earlier in him you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands by putting off the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ having been buried with him in baptism was you were also raised with him so note here it it identifies baptism is the place that we were raised with Christ and it's that same verb
• 51:30 - 52:00 sunro that shows up in Ephesians 2 so you were raised with him through faith and the powerful working of God who raised him from the dead so that sunro uh that Paul is using in Ephesians 2 he also uses in Colossians 2 specifically in the context of baptism saying that in our baptism we were raised with Christ uh by the powerful working of God so that that's where you know I would focus our our conversation at this point because you'll know it's
• 52:00 - 52:30 not based upon the cognitive ability of the person otherwise it would be of their own doing it's based upon God giving them that gift just real quick sorry just real quick before you respond Corey guys we got about five minutes here before we can start taking uh questions from the chat so you guys go ahead and and load up the questions for Chris and Corey guys you are killing it you guys are uh putting on a really interesting conversation here uh just a couple quick things uh obviously for questions here at the end
• 52:30 - 53:00 we're going to prioritize uh patrons channel members and super chats of course now I do want to do one thing real quick uh my wife is due in September with baby number four okay so if you think we should get the baby baptized drop us a $5 Super Chat all right drop us a $5 if not now I noticed that in the chat it's mostly people who are not agreeing with infant baptism so if not then drop a $10 Super
• 53:00 - 53:30 Chat anyways uh back to it we're going to start live chat questions here in about five minutes Corey I'll I'll kick it back over my friend for for for you and your wife let's just do this just baptize her right now and then you're done we settle the whole thing uh but Chris you said the the uh it's not dependent upon the person's cognitive uh uh volition or ability well then what about what about a person who is uh
• 53:30 - 54:00 maybe mentally incapacitated uh and the family want and he's an adult the family wants this person baptized would it work that way with with him as well yeah absolutely so I'll give you an example so I I used to attend a church where our pastor did Ministry with people who had Down syndrome and uh legitimately the person that I have that I think has the greatest Faith I've ever seen in my life was a was this kid with Down syndrome and uh you know and we when we we would
• 54:00 - 54:30 have the Lord's supper together it it it it always would just tear me up but this this kid um you know one time we were kind of too deep around the uh around the altar at our church and when P the pastor came through and he he gave him uh he gave him the bread he said this is the True Body of Christ given into death for the Forgiveness of your sins and this kid broke down and said for me for my sins thank you thank you thank you and so I would note that that that guy
• 54:30 - 55:00 had amazing Faith cognitive ability is not so much uh it's not it's not based upon our our cognitive ability it's not based upon our IQ it's based upon God raising us from the dead making us alive together with Christ through the means of Grace him regenerating us taking us from death to life again Christ points out that infants not only have faith we're called to have that same faith and John the Baptist filled with the Holy Spirit in his mother's womb began his job of pointing people to Christ even
• 55:00 - 55:30 before he was born again there's great examples of that so one day Jesse the planis is is watching an episode of Prophecy Bingo or something he's catching you and he said you know what he's convicted I I need to get this right uh I'm thinking about I'm thinking about you know I'm not going to sell all my stuff but I'm I'm thinking about getting right uh he's riding his motorcycle he hits a he hits a rock he's thrown he's he's he's incapacitated not just physically mentally uh his his wife knows that he wants to uh uh rededicate his life to the Lord he wants to get
• 55:30 - 56:00 baptized but he is in a in a vegetative state can they can they baptize him then absolutely so all of all of his horrendous life yeah okay yeah in fact in the Missouri Senate's uh Himel which we use at our church uh the Lutheran service book in the very back they have a uh they have something called baptism in cases of emerg and um and so you know and there's
• 56:00 - 56:30 wonderful stories from folks in the Missouri Senate who have done exactly that they've come across a a you know a a car wck scene somebody legitimately only has minutes to live and they baptized that person absolutely God's promises are sure see that see that that would seem to me and and and we I guess we wouldn't be able to get to it uh now but that would seem to go counter can I let me let me share some uh uh my screen real quick and you tell me what you tell me what let me push this button you tell me
• 56:30 - 57:00 what you what you think uh where am I at I am on going back to Titus 3 okay going back to Titus 3 uh he saved us not on the basis of deeds and so arone so not on the basis of Deeds we're not saved by that and so would you all so you would not include this this infant baptism based on that wouldn't that wouldn't that actually be being saved on the basis of Deeds great question by the way that is a fantastic question but the
• 57:00 - 57:30 text you're quoting actually rules that out so note go back into verse four when the goodness and loving kindness of God our savior appeared he saved us so you know so again watch watch who's doing the doing here he saved us okay not by works done by us in righteousness but then note in the same sentence but Dia through the washing of regeneration so the idea of baptism being a human work is absolutely ruled out by Titus Chapter
• 57:30 - 58:00 3 because it's it in that same sentence it says he saved us not by works done by us in righteousness but through the washing of regeneration it's all part of the same sentence which rules out the idea that baptism is a work that we do it's God's work not ours so yeah but it it it still seems as though um even though this is God's work this is still a work that we're doing so so then are we necessarily saying that whatever we do uh whatever work that we
• 58:00 - 58:30 do that leads to Salvation it's still God's work not not our Deeds absolutely so like if I when I preach the gospel all right um and somebody comes to faith in Christ through the hearing of the good news that Christ has bled and died for them are they saved by my good works no they're not saved by my work good works at all I might have been the means by which God you know had the gospel get to them but Paul says the one who plants the one who Waters they're nothing it's
• 58:30 - 59:00 God who gives the in what would be examp what would be an example of of good works or Good Deeds that we do that God wouldn't get credit for toward salvation it seems to me that any good deed or any any work um you would take and say okay this is still something that that they're not saved by and they can't boast on but this is something I've God so is there is there a such thing as a work or deed that a person can do that that falls in in the category of what I'm saying is is is there a such work or deed um that we could take credit
• 59:00 - 59:30 for no I I would note that the Pauline Corpus uh absolutely rules that out and that's a well-defined category uh Salvation by works would be the idea of Salvation by obedience to Torah or the keeping of the Ten Commandments uh the nazarenes had their own version of it you don't dance drink smoke or chew or go with girls who do uh and and as long as you you those rules then then you're in like Flynn but the issue is is that
• 59:30 - 60:00 that that's a Salvation by work schema so when Paul is referencing this idea not saved by works done by us and righteousness uh that's shorthand for talking about obedience to the law um that that does not save us and that's the category and and so baptism is is is completely different it is something instituted by Christ it is fulfilled by Christ and it is his work not ours and and that and uh t 3 makes it very clear that this is God's work he saved us through the washing of regeneration
• 60:00 - 60:30 that's his doing not ours even though I I I now I I disagree but for the sake of time I want I want to ask one question also and this is in Acts 15 dog G I thought I had it up I thought I had it up um well I I'll just I'll get to the point I think it's what is it verse Oh Lord 16 no no it's not okay here it is um no it's not uh 20 there it is I'm just going to summarize it but when the church was determining what to have
• 60:30 - 61:00 either Gentiles or future Gentile Believers or future Believers to do uh baptism isn't one of the list of things that they were to do uh and so why do you suppose that that was not included if it was it was of utmost importance but it was not put in because I and someone can say well that presupposed that they were already um Believers and already baptized but but not everyone in not everyone was and also not everyone
• 61:00 - 61:30 in the future certainly were not so why would it why would they not have put that as their instructions because one of the issues was if you're going to relate baptism with uh circumcision the key issue here was should we have these people circumcised and so why not then make that make that an issue yeah the issue Corey is is that that's actually an argument from Silence um and I would note that the presenting issue with the judaizers was their claim that you cannot be saved unless you are circumcised also uh as an additional
• 61:30 - 62:00 subsequent to uh you know you know to baptism and you had to be circumcised otherwise you were not saved so they were adding to uh the commands of Christ and taking people back to the Mosaic Covenant I would point to Galatians the entire epistle as an argument against that um but the fact the fact that it's not mentioned uh by as as U as one of the decisions the Jerusalem Council doesn't speak anything to baptism at all I have clarifying question make an
• 62:00 - 62:30 argument from Silence like that if you don't mind I have a clarifying question is is do you believe that uh circumcision is now replaced by baptism is that your belief absolutely in the types and shadows of the Old Testament circumcision was the thing that would what that points to baptism in the New Testament so so we're under are we under the law if now where the works have been replaced yes so we're we're not under
• 62:30 - 63:00 the Mosaic Covenant at all um and the the requirement to you know to circumcise does not apply to Gentiles period I mean acts 15 makes that clear but under the New Covenant uh I would note that initiation into the New Covenant is is is through baptism and so uh that being the case uh it the type and Shadow of circumcision in the old Covenant has given way to the to the sub which is what it was always pointing to and that's baptism and again Colossians 2 makes that very clear gotcha gotcha
• 63:00 - 63:30 okay so let's get into some chats here uh we got to wrap it up pretty soon here uh first of all calwell apologetics hey I appreciate you uh not a not a question but still thank you for the Super Chat it says here is double for your trouble don't baptize infants baptize professing Believers in parentheses children and adults hey appreciate you calwell for that Super Chat Jay Williams with a question for Chris it says Chris if you believe the gospel and never get water
• 63:30 - 64:00 baptized will you go to heaven absolutely right yeah it baptism is just one of the means of Grace it is not the soul means excellent excellent I had another Super Chat I lost it there did you go oh okay it was Daniel Johnston who says baptized exclamation point that's right Daniel John Assuming he's telling you to baptize your infant oh that's what it is
• 64:00 - 64:30 that's what it is okay that's right that's expensive my two cents but I'm gonna say it for free baptize your your your children your infant to okay let me ask you let me ask before you go your next question um the the people who would would you be opposed to a person who was infant baptized and then came and got baptized again later as an adult I I would note that many people do do that uh you know I was later baptized as a Nazarene but after I understood what the
• 64:30 - 65:00 scriptures teach regarding baptism I don't consider that baptism to be the one that is of note and I would note that when you believe that God really does something in baptism as the scriptures say then going you don't need to be re-baptized many people are oftentimes will be re-baptized to kind of show that they're they're recommitting their life to Christ and stuff like that but instead what they should be doing what they should be doing is looking to the biblical text and all the promises associated with baptism and recognize having already been baptized in the name of the father
• 65:00 - 65:30 Son and Holy Spirit that they're they're recommitting themselves to their baptismal promises uh this is an interesting one from neand Q it says can God invalidate a baptism can God invalidate a baptism I would need a text that says that um I you know I I that does I I I don't have a category for that biblically so I I can't
• 65:30 - 66:00 speculate it would seem to me that all of the people that uh John baptized um it and granted I'm I'm I am imposing my my view on the on the text uh because the text just doesn't say but do I believe that everyone that John the Baptist baptized uh was a believer that ended up that ended up making it in I don't I wouldn't say so uh and if that's true true well then I guess that that would be sort of answering Nan's question that um that uh he is invalid in other words
• 66:00 - 66:30 their baptism was just of no good all they did was just go and get wet I think there's a lot of people that have gotten wet um and and that was that I I think of the baptism that that Mike Todd did you where he baptized himself for how many times uh I'm pretty sure God would in that but that's just getting if you're baptizing yourself that's just getting wet yeah I agree years ago I saw somebody get baptized
• 66:30 - 67:00 with a with a with a super soaker and and it wasn't a valid baptism because it was in the name of the father son and Bam you know that that was a meme right the priest with the with the water gun right I think that was a meme right at some point during Co yep uh so again I don't know much about the Lutheran Doctrine so I'm really curious here so I know you you do infant baptisms so if if someone wasn't a Lutheran and let's say they were atheist and they now attend your church and they're they're
• 67:00 - 67:30 Believers in Christ would you then baptize them later okay so I would note that normatively uh when you're dealing with an adult convert uh they will often times believe in fact they believe first and then they're baptized um I am not of the opinion that it's a good idea to have them wait for a long time um I would note that by the time you get to the 4th Century uh in uh in Christianity they they would delay baptism after
• 67:30 - 68:00 somebody professed faith in Christ until after they were catechized and the catechism process was two years long I think that's contrary to the scriptures if you look in the book of Acts um you with adult converts you see the day they believe is also the day they're baptized the two run together so that you can't extricate them and so you would baptize absolutely absolutely yeah awesome yeah we have some other super chats right we do yeah we have another one from Jay Williams Jay Williams I don't know you
• 68:00 - 68:30 but you've been dropping some bangers in the chat I appreciated the Heavenly Skittles uh comment that you made earlier uh Jay Williams says Chris did Sid Roth get baptized as a baby I have no idea yeah no one can know no one that was such a long time ago no one can know maybe he just got wet yeah and I would note this uh Corey you you mentioned that that you asked a question whether it's Spirit baptism or water baptism I would point to Ephesians 4
• 68:30 - 69:00 where Paul says there's one Lord One Faith one baptism one God and Father of all uh so the Christian church has always acknowledged one baptism and the spirit is always associated with it so in in Acts two Peter says repent and be baptized every one of you for the Forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit the two come together as a package Christ himself when he was baptized the Holy Spirit fell you know descend ascended on him and stayed on him and so I I've read Scholars that argue that Christ baptism
• 69:00 - 69:30 is really kind of the first Christian baptism especially since John the John the Baptist says that uh that he baptizes only with water but when Christ was baptized the Holy Spirit descended on him that was that was more than uh John even knew was going on uh you know that that was more than any of the other baptisms he had and I think that's a I think that's the type of baptism we have when we're baptized we um we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit the Forgiveness of our sins Nan Creed specifically says
• 69:30 - 70:00 we believe in one baptism for the remission of sins which comes directly out of Acts chapter 2 and we receive the Holy Spirit the two go together to to kind of somehow say well water baptism doesn't have the spirit in it and that there there's a spirit baptism turns uh baptism into kind of a dehydrated hermeneutic and you can't do that the water baptism and the Holy Spirit always seem to go together and that all that that imagery goes all the way back to the Book of Genesis chapter 1 now I've got a I've got a um question for you I
• 70:00 - 70:30 got to share my screen if y'all don't mind because I want to know ahead does this baptism count uh yeah does does does this baptism right here count oh god oh no what are we doing can you see the video uh Chris okay yeah okay okay let me me move it up a little further yeah okay now if you notice what he's standing in yeah he's standing in a kitty pool I get it K pool and he's just
• 70:30 - 71:00 getting some some water that count yeah it does yeah absolutely yeah absolutely and I I'll tell you why because uh there is no amount of water that's discussed that's necessary in fact when you read the did which is again a first century document uh the D asks legitimately asks like where should we baptize some and the preferred baptism is in a river uh living water cold cold Living Water to be preferred but it and then it goes on to basically say that if you don't have
• 71:00 - 71:30 that then this will do just take water and pour and the very first baptismal fonts that we have archaeologically in the Middle East uh and and around the Mediterranean they're all standup uh fonts uh that they weren't for full immersion they were instead you know kind of pouring water or you know things like that and that's archaeologically just a fact why would move away from what the what the word actually means to be immersed um I would note that baptizo actually does not mean to be immersed it means to
• 71:30 - 72:00 be washed um you know and when somebody says that the word baptizo means to be immersed that's not that's not necessarily true I would note that uh in talking in like Mark chapter 7 when uh about the Pharisees that they baptize dining couches uh you know and and uh and so you know that was that's an aside that Mark puts in there that doesn't mean they fully immerse them it just means they wash them or dip them so uh the baptizo itself does not mean to fully immerse I disagree with that
• 72:00 - 72:30 lexical version that that that's just not what the word means Cory do you have any response to that before we move to the next Super Chat I want to be respectful your time no okay so let's just uh let's uh thank you weakness I guess uh if my dad works 80 hours of overtime and buys me a gift and I accept a gift who did the work me or him does accepting a gift count as works who wants to answer that one I would note Ephesians 2 makes it
• 72:30 - 73:00 clear that the faith itself is a gift given by God the ability to say I Believe In Christ is not an ability that you have when you're dead in trespasses and sins and so God through the means of Grace has to regenerate you and only then are you able to say I Believe In Christ I think the very first breath of faith is I'm a sinner Lord have mercy on me and I think that that's that's the first breath of faith for people and God has to raise them from the dead and so
• 73:00 - 73:30 the answer is you know you're not capable of receiving the gift unless God gives you that ability yeah I I don't I don't think accepting the gift is um count as count as works because then again we all will be saved by works so yeah I don't I don't see that we all have uh a gift that was given to us and we accepted it so I don't I don't see that gotcha gotcha all right guys well uh like Nick said we want to be respectful of your time uh we really appreciate you guys joining our small
• 73:30 - 74:00 little Channel and having this conversation about baptism I think that it was really productive and honestly I knew uh basically zero about your position on this Chris uh so I was I learned a lot tonight and I thankful to have done so uh just a couple things guys before we get going here make sure if if you're fans of ours if you're subscribed to us make sure you go subscribe to Chris's Channel fighting for the faith and Corey's Channel smart Christian's channel uh they both put out
• 74:00 - 74:30 excellent content uh doctrinally sound solid guys and also entertaining content so make sure you guys go and subscribe to their channels also we have uh we're taking a week off next week I have to go out of town uh but the week after we have a twer on August 21st uh believe it or not we have Mike sarelli joining us live in studio in person what and uh we here we cleared it with him uh
• 74:30 - 75:00 everything is on the table we're allowed to ask uh about tongues demons healing and uh we will do that and so join us August 21st I think that's going to be a great video and then immediately after that we have Dr James White and Dr Michael Brown joining us live virtually like this uh and they're going to be be discussing Church division Church unity and some of the trend about uh
• 75:00 - 75:30 Protestants and Catholics sort of coming together these days and uh so that's going to be August 21st make sure you guys are subscribed so you can tune into that uh Corey Chris I'm going to give you guys a last word here Chris I'm gonna kick it over to you first my friend I I listen I think the discussion was great and I just wanted to thank Corey Corey asked great questions and I really appreciated the dialogue and I'm a huge fan of the work that you do and I want to thank you for the tireless work that you do and the tenacity that you
• 75:30 - 76:00 show and the love of Christ that you show in your in your uh on your YouTube channel I just think what you're doing is great and I just want to say keep it up thank you thank you um I never would have thought that I could have been on the same screen with uh with Chris everybody is is a fan except for the people that that he biblically calls out and so they they don't they don't like him uh which is good they're not supposed to like him as they're involved in their their biblical Shenanigans and so um obviously anybody
• 76:00 - 76:30 that that uh subscribes to what I'm doing is certainly a fan of Chris and so I think it's good that Brothers can come together and I I I still disagree with Chris I think Chris probably is coming Clos to my I almost wanton him over today but but no uh I I what what I wanted to do because I I I I told the guys before that I may have answered one or two questions about infant baptism probably
• 76:30 - 77:00 twice maybe um in the in the entirety that I've been on and so um I want to hear more about about the now I disagree um I disagree with certain points even just about baptism in general but I think it's just good that Brothers can come together can disagree and still love the Lord and we'll find ourselves in the exact same place together uh in heaven with our with our father so it's just good I'm glad that all these folks um are here by the way guys make sure uh
• 77:00 - 77:30 that if you have not subscribed let me just say this because I think what what Bible dingers what you guys are doing is awesome uh you guys seem to have connections better than than than the uh than the federal government so you guys all these guys in man so make sure you guys if you have not subscribed shame on you go get baptized and then subscribe yes if you are a Believer please go get baptized I think both of these fellas here Will definitely agree and if you are not subscribed make sure you hit that subscribe button right now
• 77:30 - 78:00 and if you are not a part of Binger Nation then we want you to go ahead go on Facebook go on Instagram go on X go on YouTube and follow us at bingers across the board I promise you we are the one and only we're the only ones in existence with that name and I promise you we're the only ones that will and while you're there just give me the likes don't pass and scroll don't pass and scroll hit that follow hit that subscribe hit that
• 78:00 - 78:30 like button and most importantly ding on thank you guys so much for being on the show I love you both I love both of your Ministries and I look forward to continue to work with you again man thank you [Music] oh