Traumatic Loss

Summary

Highlights

• The family is still grappling with Victor's suicide a decade later, highlighting the long-term impact of traumatic loss. 🌧️
• Pam has assumed a complex role within the family, simultaneously filling her brother's shoes and pushing against parental authority. 🥺
• Adrien and Judy use humor to manage painful emotions, but Pam visibly struggles with this, showing the different ways people cope with grief. 🎭
• There's a recurring theme of unspoken expectations and unresolved feelings that hinders the family's healing process. 🤐
• The session sheds light on the difficulties of moving forward after a loved one's suicide, as each member of the family questions what they might have done differently. 🤔

Key Takeaways

• Pam is caught between her loyalty to her family and her need for independence, illustrating the challenges of transitioning to adulthood amidst family trauma. 🤔
• Victor's suicide remains a deeply painful and unresolved issue for the family, affecting their interactions and daily lives profoundly. 😢
• Despite the pervasive sadness, moments of laughter reveal the family's resilience and the human tendency to use humor as a coping mechanism. 😂
• The conversation underscores the importance of open communication and the difficulty of expressing emotions in families dealing with severe trauma. 🗣️
• The family's story illustrates the long-lasting impact of a traumatic event and the complex emotions tied to grief and loss. 💔

Overview

Chapters

• 00:00 - 01:00: Introduction and Setting the Tone The chapter begins with the participants Adrien, Pam, and Judy assembled for a discussion. Adrien initiates the conversation by reflecting on a previous interview where he and his wife dominated the conversation. He suggests that this current session is an opportunity for someone named Cam to take a more active role in the discussion, setting the tone for a more balanced and inclusive dialogue.
• 01:00 - 03:00: Pam's Perspective In "Pam's Perspective", the chapter captures Pam's reflections and airing out her grievances on certain issues she perceives as wrong or unfavorable. She acknowledges the repetitive nature of her concerns as they have been expressed previously. The chapter reveals her stance and viewpoint, distinguished from others, and provides an illustration of her consistent desire to voice her thoughts on matters she deems significant.
• 03:00 - 06:00: Parental Concerns and Dynamics The chapter 'Parental Concerns and Dynamics' delves into the difficulties and challenges faced by the speaker as they attempt to address issues of regression to past behaviors. Despite earnest efforts to change, the individual they are concerned about repeatedly returns to their 'old ways.' The speaker expresses a need for understanding and assistance in dealing with these recurring issues, indicating a cycle of trying to improve the situation but encountering persistent setbacks. The exact nature of these 'old ways' is not specified, but there is a clear desire for resolution and betterment.
• 06:00 - 12:00: Victor's Background and Suicide The chapter titled 'Victor's Background and Suicide' discusses the main complaint of Victor's family members, which is that he does not participate in household chores after coming home from work. Instead, he prefers to spend his time in front of the computer, neglecting household responsibilities. This indicates a background of dissatisfaction and conflict within the family due to Victor's avoidance of chores and household duties.
• 12:00 - 18:00: Coping with Loss and Emotions The chapter "Coping with Loss and Emotions" explores the speaker's experience of dealing with small challenges and their emotional impact. The speaker acknowledges that their attitude towards these challenges is unstable, describing it as 'on the rocks.' Despite this, there is a hint of agreement or understanding with another person named Pam, suggesting an external perspective or advice being considered. The speaker reflects on the understatement of emotions and possibly suggests an internal struggle with expressing or processing them. Overall, the chapter highlights themes of instability and introspection in the face of emotional difficulties.
• 18:00 - 23:00: Family Dynamics and Responsibilities The chapter revolves around family dynamics and responsibilities, focusing on improving communication and cooperation at home. The main issue is about building self-esteem and ensuring responsiveness in family interactions. An instance is shared about a recent dinner outing where Pam did not respond upon returning, highlighting the challenges faced in fostering better communication and cooperation.
• 23:00 - 26:00: Conclusion and Reflection The chapter revolves around a conversation involving an inquiry about a restaurant visit. The speaker initially tries to find out which restaurant was visited, followed by questions about the meal consumed. The response was unexpected as it was revealed that the meal was breakfast, although the conversation took place in the evening. The speaker reflects on the irony of having breakfast at an unusual time, noting their acceptance of the choice to eat breakfast at any time.

Traumatic Loss Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 well uh thanks for coming in Adrien Pam and Judy uh you were saying just before we started that uh you have a different thing going than when you were well I had turned around and figured last last time we had our interview that my wife and I done 99% of the talking done done our airing as you would call it and I've just thought that today would be a good time for cam to do
• 00:30 - 01:00 her airing on what she thought was wrong or what we do wrong that she doesn't like I mean I just thought it would be kind of fair for that oh go I mean I don't know that was your idea about it that was my idea you're coming from a different place last time you were ready to talk last time well I can still talk it would be but it would be repetitions of what I had said last time and and uh for a while there she
• 01:00 - 01:30 was doing real good but she had gone right back to the old ways again and so we I would just like to find out me different from oh yes different from what the old ways were oh we we try once in a while we'll we give it a royal try but it doesn't continue what is giving it it of course we don't know anything about what the trouble well well apparently you got some complaints about the way do they
• 01:30 - 02:00 have they have some what do they complain about oh I don't do the housework when I come home from work I just all I want to do is come home sit in front of the computer and just stay on there I don't do anything I don't cut the you know clean house all I want to do is sit on the computer that's the main complaint [Music]
• 02:00 - 02:30 no that's only one of the Small Things No that's only one of the Small Things plus my attitude towards them is on the Rocks mhm on the Rocks B shaky b a bit that's what I say sh what else I don't know what else well so far you're agreeing with what Pam saying oh yeah you just think a little it's slightly understated
• 02:30 - 03:00 slightly she doesn't answer what she what we came for was for Pam to build her selfesteem um to me more Cooperative at home um and to answer us when we talk to her she doesn't give you an answer one thing is um her and her friend went out to dinner the other night and they came back and I well
• 03:00 - 03:30 where did you go well I think I finally did get an answer as to which restaurant they went to and then I asked um well what did you eat you know just idle conversation and try to find out what they ate they said breakfast I so I sat there and I looked at them I said all right breakfast this was you know 6:00 in the evening fine I mean if you want breakfast that's fine
• 03:30 - 04:00 so I asked again what did you eat and I got breakfast I said well I guess I'm not going to ask this question again I never did find out what they really ate it was just breakfast and I don't know what breakfast was well one thing I noticed is that uh you Judy and Adrien when you talk about Pam and the way she's difficult with you or brushes you off or tells you something that doesn't
• 04:00 - 04:30 make sense or whatever you you you join in laughter about it at the same time I see Pam's eyes filling with tears like you really upset about she does this all the time she does get very upset the way they talk about you or or perhaps you're upset about other things well than the things that are being talked about I would think the reason why we are laughing at it is because it's been going on for so long for so many years uhhuh that at home we don't do this we
• 04:30 - 05:00 are trying to stay calm I am trying to keep my temper down because you started laughing off tension then here tonight yes yes yes same for you yeah you I I would say yeah probably I didn't ask you know laugh afterwards but I did say you know well what did you have for you know what did you eat and there was still no answer so when I like today to get here 4:00 I I asked her Pam it's 4:00 Pam take a
• 05:00 - 05:30 shower she's 30 years old I shouldn't have to tell her this right but I turn around told her I says Pam's to 4:00 time to take a shower she doesn't get in the shower until 5:00 so she doesn't get out of the out of there until what was it 20 to 6 so this puts me behind at 5:00 I was supposed to be taking my shower not at 6:00 MH you have to tell her and then she'll put it off for as long as possible without doing stuff now I got
• 05:30 - 06:00 angry I'm trying to hold my temper here because I do get angry and I do yell and I do throw a fit I mean it's no throw a fit you mean hit as well no not anymore not anymore I might I think I wall or something bang the wall or bang the table or get up and leave and totally leave for a while than to hit her anymore I'm not saying I didn't do it when I was when she was
• 06:00 - 06:30 younger trying to get her attention to get things going but she wouldn't she still wouldn't do it then found out that wasn't it's an an wouldn't help when she was younger you know I noticed that you seem to have tears in your eyes when your parents were laughing when your dad started to be to talk about getting angry and how he was just controlling his anger then you started to smile because it used to when he hit
• 06:30 - 07:00 me and when he jumps when I what when you jump when I jumped you know how you jump on me with anger I don't jump at you with anger any longer okay okay okay I know what you're talking about she she's referring to at uh when I really yell at her to get going now I'm really angry again and
• 07:00 - 07:30 I'll yell at her and I'll maybe say godamn it or something like that get moving mhm you know now that's that's what she calls by jumping at her is that what you mean man I think that's what she means uhhuh I see I thought I thought she meant that you were jumping on her no and I can see you're a really big person got a strong voice and probably pretty scary I I try to use the voice more than anything yeah but but even though you
• 07:30 - 08:00 look big and strong and powerful at the beginning of the session here I heard you telling uh Pam that she should move and not sit in the middle right and I thought maybe you learned that last time or maybe you've been on this for a while but well no I just go ahead I'm sorry but you you didn't want her to sit there but she's sitting there I see well again she's 30 years old mhm
• 08:00 - 08:30 and I still think she should respect us and if I said she should sit at the end I think she should have gotten up and sat at the end because I wanted her closer to last time we only had one gentleman sitting at that seat so I just thought that if she sat closer to the therapist or whatever it might be a little bit easier for her I don't know you know I'm just trying to use my own psychology my own that was your idea you did you have a reason to stay away from me like you feel more protected with them I just like sitting in the middle I
• 08:30 - 09:00 thought Pam was wanting to sit in the middle between her parents I thought I I wondered if you were trying to have it so she wasn't between you and Judy oh no no only that she would be closer to the therapist but Pam's idea was to be in the middle between your two parents right what do you like about being in the middle oh I just like sitting in the middle that's my favorite thing and does that happen at home mhm especially at the dinner table Dad's on the the left I'm right here mom's in
• 09:00 - 09:30 over there that make you feel really that you've got a secure place now when you when you smile about that it looks to me as though that makes you really happy M uhuh e even though they're mad yeah even though they're mad or maybe because they're mad I I I realize that doesn't quite
• 09:30 - 10:00 make sense but it is the case they're both mad and you're in the middle there must be a reason it's better off in the middle if they're mad then off on your own somewhere where you don't have to hear them being mad at you you're thinking about it is yeah what what do you think I don't know I this is I like sitting in the middle I don't know why
• 10:00 - 10:30 well I'm comfortable with it have you been aware of that for no she does sit in the in the chair in the middle you know we're both on each end I'm on one end she's at the other on the table and she would be like in the middle are there other kids in your family no Pam's it Pam's it was that was that a decision that you just wanted one child or did you adopted mhm so
• 10:30 - 11:00 you were yeah you looked upset or something as we asked about that okay I'll tell you why we had I had a we had a son he committed suicide 10 years ago oh so yeah no she does she takes it very hard but not as hard as I do excuse me can you say more about it no he won't came home from work found him in the bedroom blew his head blew his brains out
• 11:00 - 11:30 I don't know what else to say it's no rhyme no reason no note no nothing corer called up that evening turned around says please tell me that he was UND dope tell me what kind of dope he was on same question the look in your eyes why would I want him to be on dope well you wanted a reason that's right A Reason give me a reason there's still no reason I cannot visit his grave it's been 10 years over 10 years I cannot visit his
• 11:30 - 12:00 grave I cannot go there because you're tortured that you don't know why I I would assume so and you're angry at him for what he's assume I am I would assume I am how he's left you hurting oh yeah and I figured that's part of her problem too yeah how how but it was going on before that this has been going on before yeah but I think a lot more is now well things were going on with Pam before that oh yes but let's let's stay
• 12:00 - 12:30 with this Judy what do you figure I just feel she's hurt because she doesn't have her brother to come to talk to and be with all the time were you close to your brother P can what was his name Victor I didn't hear Victor Peter Victor Victor Victor Victor M tell tell me about Victor we
• 12:30 - 13:00 were real close we were confiding each other and I was like I knew when to talk to I told you you can always talk to us is Victor older or younger than you younger my four years what was he like we would do so much together
• 13:00 - 13:30 so many things that's why I sit in my room is that where you and he would talk together do we yeah yeah but you would sit in your room long before that long before Victor had done that well it may have been a favorite place of hers then but now it has a new meaning yeah I understand that
• 13:30 - 14:00 part is the room the place you feel Victor is for you I wonder if that's more important than the computer I don't know well that wasn't the room he done it in the room he done it in is the room she decided to go sleep in now and she she used spend before the computer she used to go and spend a lot of time just sitting in the bed and just sitting on her bed and playing with her toys sitting on her bed uh now she does the same thing uh she's got these little hand games you
• 14:00 - 14:30 know she plays with that or she sit down and play solitire for hours on end in a room in the room what are you thinking about when you're there oh just I just don't really think of anything just sit there just sit there and now we have a dog so we' always had a dog yeah we still
• 14:30 - 15:00 we've had a dog since you were born well well let's hear what she's got to say about it the dog means something yeah it does get to play with her you she sleeps in my room it's time to go to bed do keeps in company now when you're when you're really lonely for Victor see I didn't want to really bring it
• 15:00 - 15:30 up because let me put it to you this way Pamela will tell you what you want to hear uh meaning what meaning that she's very smart when she sort of figures out she'll sit there and she'll sit there and just listen for a period of time and then she'll tell you what you want to hear to satisfy you it doesn't sound I don't know it sounds you know but she
• 15:30 - 16:00 is that way instead of telling you the truth she'll tell you what you what she thinks you want to hear what do you think which would would appease you what would that be well just like now when she says about the dog it's her dog she brought the dog home as a pup we said no dogs but she brought it home I told her to get rid of it she didn't get rid of it well was have been four years now we still got the dog she still hasn't got rid of the dog but uh what are you thinking that she'd
• 16:00 - 16:30 tell us that wouldn't really be true uh that she's uh I'm not going to say not that she doesn't miss Vic uh but that she thinks about him as much as she says she does you don't think she's thinking that no her mind is somewhere totally somewhere else uh it's either on the computer playing games on the computer or in her room playing the games and that well let
• 16:30 - 17:00 me interrupt you a little bit because Judy I was I was noticing that you looked a lot like you were suffering as Pam was starting to talk about Victor very much so what what with what can you say about I can't talk is this true whenever you think about Victor yeah it's hard to talk about remember Good Times all
• 17:00 - 17:30 right I can't bring up up to other things you know problem them it's hard you can remember the good times and then there were some times that with him that weren't so good that are really hard to talk about well you always have a kid that you you know it's um I mean he wasn't a bad kid I mean he was never a bad kid um he was mischievous he was as you would call him
• 17:30 - 18:00 I think he was a typical boy typical boy that's all I mean he was not a big kid so he could do stuff that was little trouble he was he yeah I'd say little yeah little trouble he was he was a good kid was nothing there was nothing that he would do really wrong he was really helpful around the house and stuff he loved to cook he loved to help clean house he' get on her case about cleaning up the house and
• 18:00 - 18:30 and stuff so hard time oh yeah all the time so I mean cuz he knew cuz I worked and he he knew that he had you know the housework had to be done before I got home and dinner you know started or table set and and she wouldn't do it he'd get on her case about it and the two of them would work together I'm doing things but now she doesn't have him there to yell at her all the time to do
• 18:30 - 19:00 this or do that so so she gets you to yell at her yeah more or less yeah I think they were fairly close together yeah it was a great jck to help us Pam what do you I would say fairly I say pretty darn close yeah yeah we're very close with them did you feel close to Victor D him
• 19:00 - 19:30 oh yeah he was M's little boy was he adopted too yeah yeah how old was he when you adopted when he was adopted he was just baby they were both babies they were she two oh two weeks before Christmas she was about two weeks old when we brought her home and he was about a week old when he came home MH so there
• 19:30 - 20:00 was so presumably you hadn't been able to have children no how long had you been trying 8 years at least but 8 years or better you before p.m. well before p.m. was maybe five or six years so 6 seven years you out F at eight was close yeah
• 20:00 - 20:30 so no we had gone to doctors and everything else sure so then getting the kids was really important to you oh yeah cuz you'd already been I assume you'd been under strain about not being able to have children oh I guess so we wanted them but you know not being able to when she was our little Christmas baby she was brought home on December 18th so that was our Christmas present so so Pam was like a very
• 20:30 - 21:00 wonderful gift and imagine Victor too four years later yeah he was born in January so a little late for Christmas but very special how did Pam react when you presented her with Victor oh she loved him yeah she would help with them feed them hold them and she was really pleased with them
• 21:00 - 21:30 I didn't get I didn't get angry I was how was exciting mhm so now I'm wanting to encourage you to tell us some more about Victor because it sounds like you haven't talked very much about him no we don't has that been true ever since his death
• 21:30 - 22:00 y you just don't talk about it yeah it's uh oh I guess what you say it's easier left alone CU I say she used to go to the Grave minimum once a week she I don't know how often Judy Judy and I says I I tried several times I tried on my own several times and I just can't do it can't do it
• 22:00 - 22:30 my sister just passed away not too long ago but now couple months ago anyway a year it's been a year no mhm since Christine mhm you're in February yeah time flies but uh she was laid out of course actually go visit the rest of the graves and I got there by him and I had turn around a walk away and bust out crying I just
• 22:30 - 23:00 oh I can how can I say I'm very angry you did you could you could got say I lost one of my my best buddy M was he your best buddy yeah I considered him even though when he wouldn't do stuff i' get angry at him and holler at him and threaten them and everything else you know just like any most fathers I guess do did you hit him uh when he was younger when he was younger uh what you would call a correctional blanking you know take them and whack them across the back backside
• 23:00 - 23:30 and raise them up off the ground a little bit you know that type of thing but nothing to injure them nothing to injure them what I notice about what you're saying is that you can talk a bit about Victor you've talked a little bit about Victor well it's hard for both of you but what you can't do is go to his grave together I can't and I've tried you've tried alone I've tried with her and you've tried together you can't do it
• 23:30 - 24:00 together I can't do it I just can't do it period and I'm I'm thinking that's probably really hard for you that you have to do it alone rather than have your husband with you to rather be alone at this point well what I'm thinking though is that the loss of Victor that that is something that you two share it's a very deep pain following a very great gift and I have I have the feeling that
• 24:00 - 24:30 Pam sits between you to prevent that loss being dealt with she sort of partly fills in for Victor oh she tried and and partly she tries to be the opposite of Victor because of course she is a Victor she tries to do a lot of things that he did and she tries she go out and mow the grass and and take the garbage out and she does you know she does her those
• 24:30 - 25:00 were his chores before yeah yeah now I do so she does feel trying to be your father's buddy yeah any way yeah she likes to go out with him a lot she doesn't care to go with me that often was that true before Victor died yeah I think so no no used to go with me too mhm think is that would Victor Victor and I
• 25:00 - 25:30 would go fishing Victor and I would go hunting in the winter time uh you know it would be vican I it would be call it mail bonding type thing sure you know uh and I guess maybe call it selfish I don't know maybe it's uh I'm thinking that it's you know uh maybe it's me uh that's uh going a little goofy here or something because I I lost and
• 25:30 - 26:00 I'll never be able to have what I did have with him uh she tries she used to go fishing with me uh quite a bit then all of a sudden she stopped when was that I don't even remember I don't remember when she stopped well I mean I haven't gone fishing in a long time either so did she did she go fishing with you after Vic died yeah a couple times a couple times
• 26:00 - 26:30 yeah d k nothing darn it never caught anything your father never could catch fish you can't catch them I can't catch I just go could Vic catch fish no not yeah [Music] you I just like to go out to the lake and sit there and what do we call still fishing with a like the like the old bamboo pole but we
• 26:30 - 27:00 got the uh uh fiberglass poles and just put them out there and just sit out there in the by the water and let the sun hit you and stuff like that you know he just enjoys sitting there doing nothing yeah okay sitting there doing nothing and not catching anything either I mean after an hour of not catching anything I'm ready to go home an hour 15 minutes the fish aren't biting you're not going to sit there and wait for the fish to come to you whereas for him that's a good day oh yes that's a
• 27:00 - 27:30 terrific day for him yes yes he could go out there at 6 hour in the morning and I come home 6 and sitting there doing nothing Judy when you go to the Grave you want to be alone more or less yeah what do you think about it I just talked to him what about what kinds of things do you have
• 27:30 - 28:00 to say just that I miss him and how I loved them than that's all it's SC H it's hard going there let you make yourself do
• 28:00 - 28:30 it do you feel in touch with him when you go you feel he hears you or gives you any comfort I hope he does MHM oh no no it's Hur out there and it sounds if it's not getting any easier as the Year's going go by I haven't gotone as
• 28:30 - 29:00 much I was out there last week I guess um I guess for Easter I went out there um I didn't make it for his birthday and I didn't make it for Christmas this year too hard no it was
• 29:00 - 29:30 just just didn't get the time to get out there I guess things wen't just jelling together all during the holidays is it easier not to go or do you feel bad if you don't go you feel you missing I think about it that I should have been there usually I take flowers for his birthday or for Christmas just I put a fresh flower out
• 29:30 - 30:00 there I guess I felt guilty this year I didn't do it it's a hard question but did you feel guilty about anything about his death maybe I didn't tell him I loved him but after I got to talking to him that day I
• 30:00 - 30:30 the day he killed himself had you had a fight no it was just that uh we were supposed to go shopping and I asked them the I had dinner on on the stove and I asked him to cook it and I thought well we were supposed to go to a Christmas party and I was going to take out that night maybe to buy him a new pair of pants and maybe a sport jacket or something and I didn't tell
• 30:30 - 31:00 him that I was going to do this and um he had been asking about getting a pool table and naturally dad had said the pool tables are too big for the basement cuz our basement is finished and there's not enough room and I say well maybe we could find something smaller and I thought well I take him out shopping we'll look even though dad said no we'll we'll take a
• 31:00 - 31:30 look and maybe we can change dad's mind but I never said that to him so maybe maybe that had something to do with it just in your mind as you think about it yeah well well then does that mean you're angry at dad as well maybe he set a limit that frustrated Victor no I don't no no so no I was it's just combination of
• 31:30 - 32:00 I guess the things and I know one night he said something to me and I looked up at him and I thought to myself GE you're so handsome and you're you know and know you're such a good kid and but I didn't say that to him out loud but the thoughts were always there cuz he was taller than me and he always teased me about being tall than me when he got that tall so how old was
• 32:00 - 32:30 he he was going on 17 he would have been 17 do you have any explanation for his killing himself no I have no idea well she's been saying she thinks that if he had known more clearly how much she loved him maybe he wouldn't that's what you're tormenting yourself with I think I think he knew I loved him but it's just you know I didn't tell him to you know that more love would have kept
• 32:30 - 33:00 him alive more saying it more yeah said the night before I was downstairs watching television he came home came downstairs and sat downstairs with me for about a half hour and he went upstairs and says good night Dad I love you and I says good night I love you too but it's one of the things that he very rarely ever said to me is that I love you Dad mhm and it struck me real funny but I didn't think nothing of it
• 33:00 - 33:30 you know so I just let it go and next day of course I get up before he got up and I was gone to work and when I came home uh I paid no attention to where he was or what was going on and then I think she called and so I went and I looked for him because she said that he's supposed to have dinner on the table or something or on the stove ready you know getting get ready so I went looking for him and I tried the bedroom
• 33:30 - 34:00 door and he had the bedroom door locked CU my father was living with us at that time and he was about 85 then and uh so I finally got the door open when I seen it the first thing I done is called the paramedics you're the one who found him yeah that must have been a horrible sight and first thing I was called the paramedics and then I moved everything out of the way so they can come in with the gurnie and uh made sure my father understood to sit on
• 34:00 - 34:30 the chair and not move because at 85 he was sort of scile and you know and wanted to make sure and then I turned around and called called her and told her to drop everything drop what you're doing okay home just grab your purse and come home immediately and she did and she didn't know but you didn't know why no I wouldn't tell her why on the phone I wouldn't tell her why on the
• 34:30 - 35:00 phone and then by the time she came home her boss called and I told her and you know it was only minutes later she came home and where were you then Pam I was at she was at school I was at school she was in college she was commuting no she was at just at
• 35:00 - 35:30 the school in the neighborhood at that Community okay and I was at I at that time was student worker go to school and then go to work yeah right there you have to go outside I was on my way home and I'm wondering what isn't a doing in front of my house yeah H
• 35:30 - 36:00 so get in the house no I didn't get in the house no right stopped you and I see my buddy Mark and then all of a sudden I see him pulling Victor out so you saw it before you knew before you've been told wow
• 36:00 - 36:30 we have a little light in our bedroom that goes on automatically so she's say that's Victor's way of coming back at us he hasn't come back lately oh he the light just go on every evening every once in a while by itself I know it was every night at the same
• 36:30 - 37:00 time and he hasn't done it lately though uhuh well that's a theme that I heard from you Judy that it wasn't as easy for you to find Victor lately that you couldn't get to his grave as easily and is there a sense that it's harder to hold on to him to hold on to the memory what of him yeah no he'll always be
• 37:00 - 37:30 there what what I'm hearing is that although you never talk about it almost never that well the other day I turned around month ago or so I was dusting off the albums and I started going through them and of course I turned around told to say went through those i' had Victor's pictures and and I C cried like a baby mhm I will'll talk about him if we had a family affair or
• 37:30 - 38:00 something and something comes up well you know it'll be casually mention you know what he did or or things about him or somebody says something but U most of the kids know um nieces and nephews know that um it isn't brought up as often you know the once in a while conversation make come up about them well what I was thinking was that that it seems to me
• 38:00 - 38:30 that the three of you as a family are doing something that's a way of keeping Victor with you by having Pam stay at home be in the middle between you fill the spot fill the spot be in the bedroom and that in a way it has the three of you stuck as though you have to be stuck in this
• 38:30 - 39:00 pattern fighting with Pam for instance uh to replace uh Victor as though you'd lose him if you changed anything I don't feel that I don't feel that because I I uh she lives in the house there's certain things if you live in a the house you have to do mhm you
• 39:00 - 39:30 have to clean the house you have to cook you have to eat you have to do things there are things that that have to be done in the house and if I don't get on her to do them she won't do them she won't do anything like today I today I told her absolutely nothing until 4:00 to take a shower but see those things you mentioned the cooking and the cleaning those are things that Victor did yeah but so did she she did they done them together partly she's doing things to stay close
• 39:30 - 40:00 to Victor like listening being in the room staying where he was and partly she's doing things to be the opposite of Victor to not please you to not clean to not and I'm thinking Pam you must be in a struggle of wanting to join Victor and knowing that you must not do so otherwise you'll lose your life yeah so it seems to me you stick right close between your parents pretty much to stay alive to meet their needs to
• 40:00 - 40:30 have someone there take Victor's Place and then to fight against it by being obnoxious or dependent or unhelpful around the house to be different that's what I want to change I want to start you want to change that I want to change in a positive way more cooperation home she's usually she's usually very negative but you say you're trying p y as a way of being yourself then to find
• 40:30 - 41:00 out who yourself is I was thinking I just wanted to add to what you were saying that it's not just to stay alive although that's part of it is it ma'am to keep yourself alive I wouldn't do what he did you would like to kill yourself too no she said she said she won't do that she wouldn't do that she said no she has always said that I from day one she has always but I but I'm saying it's it seems to me being between your parents is like it keeps the love
• 41:00 - 41:30 alive you think so so then you really couldn't afford to leave the spot between them because it's like the love wouldn't be there no it's just I just want to change you something my attitude my anger what do you think you're so mad about oh I go to work I come home he's sitting in front the TV watching
• 41:30 - 42:00 TV you know I like a break once a while from cleaning house why can't he do it at least one day if he did it then he'd be like Victor helping you yeah at least one day why don't I do it no but I don't think you're hearing what you're saying I don't think it's about whether you're lazy or not no it's not I understand that let me say it she'd like you to join her like Victor used to and if you ask her the day I usually
• 42:00 - 42:30 clean houses usually on Wednesdays it's a day we I usually clean the house now I would ask her she's off on Wednesdays so I would ask her can you vacuum the house and vacuum the floors and when she's take it'll now she usually doesn't get up at it until about maybe 10:30 11:00 no not always what time did you get up today quarter to quarter to what 10
• 42:30 - 43:00 oh excuse me call me ler for 45 minutes I I think something's happening right now that I'd like to to talk about go ahead I think you're about to get mad at her yes I am okay yeah yeah pretty close now you can usually find things to get mad at pretty close oh I can always find something to get mad at her about because she doesn't listen she won't but wait a minute I respons happening because we're in very sore territory oh no well I think about no you're talk
• 43:00 - 43:30 you're talk no no you're if you're saying because of Victor because of the territory that we're talking about is because of Victor no well it's a way out I don't think so well let me say it and then you can say it I think that this is so painful that it's easier to get in a scrap with Pam because she gives you lots of opportunity than to stay with the pain of this loss and Pam has actually over the last few minutes minut it's been talking a lot about trying to do things that would move beyond the
• 43:30 - 44:00 stuck place right now see I don't agree with you David I don't think this is about Victor this about Pam and Pam's saying I want to change I want to improve my attitude I want to become helpful and so on and I'm saying to myself well if you were successful the next thing you'd do is leave the house you you'd be living in a group home you'd you know live live with other young people you wouldn't be with your parents and I think that would be that would be another loss for you even
• 44:00 - 44:30 though you might wish for it it would be a loss again to get over and for you Pam you wouldn't have your parents there helping you to feel safe right and I think as soon as you go live in a group home with other young people it raises the question might you meet someone might you have a child of your own that's got to be something that you must be quite afraid of no I wouldn't live in a group home I have a home
• 44:30 - 45:00 now you want to stay there you you feel you want to stay with them and be their child forever and never have a child of your own oh I will eventually but it's going to take time this problem is you don't got much you don't got you don't have much more time Pamela well this means that Pam that you can't grow up have a a sexual life of your own I don't know you can't have one if
• 45:00 - 45:30 you're at home in your room with a computer I don't know I just don't don't know and you feel that your parents need you to be their child at home they need someone at home why I don't know why do I need anybody at home other than your mother oh you need me too why I don't know he te me why that's right I wouldn't have nobody say tell to pick a I wouldn't have I
• 45:30 - 46:00 wouldn't have to say Pam get me a can of pop all right pick and she does go out she goes out every night I'm putting a stop to that so because the work does not not that she stays home every night she does do well so what do you think well it seems to me probably nearing the end of our time are we we few more minutes few more yeah well I think that the three of you just got you seem to get past the pain and kind of
• 46:00 - 46:30 began joking together in a very friendly loving way I usually joke around I usually joke with her 99% of I think what Pam was saying did did relieve a lot of pain when she said you need her she's going to be there even though part of you says Pam you got to go have a life of your own you don't have so much more time to have a child tell her that all the time but even though when she says no I'm I'm going to stay home and be your child I think it relaxes the
• 46:30 - 47:00 pain and I think unless you could together all three of you mourn Victor who's painfully no longer here so that would mean when Pam had a life of her own it would be just the two of you and it and it might mean you would even miss him more again that unless that could you be back to where you were before you got him or P yeah unless you could do that grieving
• 47:00 - 47:30 and crying and talking Pam won't feel free to go ahead and have a life of her own because right now she's decided that she's going to be the child who stays home to take care of her parents I'd rather her be the child to go out and give me grandchildren uhuh I can hear that that a big part of you would like that this is what I would write but I think among the three of you it's such a relief when she says don't worry I'll stay that
• 47:30 - 48:00 everybody relaxes and you fall into the old pattern even though it's a problem it's such a relief it takes over you're crying we keep telling her goodbye and she keeps saying hello keep telling her don't let the door hit you so but no I I don't know um I just want her to have a good future you know she doesn't have to be with us
• 48:00 - 48:30 she and for what we can see she can't handle herself she can't do things for herself she won't she won't do things for herself to show us that she can handle it herself well because as long as she this is where I am getting have a job fulltime job no part time what's your job I'm working grocer sister stock yeah see I wonder if as as long as you look like you couldn't manage on your own then your parents
• 48:30 - 49:00 don't have to feel guilty about you're staying home and they're taking care of you while you're taking care of them and there's kind of an idea that the three of you share well she needs it after all so it's okay but it may be that the reason she acts as though she can't take care of herself so much is that if she grew up and could take her care of herself then she'd have to leave and leave you so terribly alone and and feel so lonely yourself
• 49:00 - 49:30 Pam I really don't want to move out any way I do any way I don't yeah cuz you don't have Dad cooking your dinner for you no more no cooking breakfast which he likes to do I guess he he gets up every morning and he cooks breakfast for her every single morning well where else is she going to get that gets her lunch ready and shoves
• 49:30 - 50:00 her out the door well I think all three of you are very caring about each other and really devoted which is important the only problem part of is is that there's a way in which you all agree Pam isn't growing up and moving towards a life of her own and to do that you'd have to be able to take the loss of Pam as the person who fills both spots vict and her own and you'd have to take that loss too Pam in
• 50:00 - 50:30 order to have something else oh we do we leave her alone on weekends we go away on weekends and cuz we have a place in Michigan so we go up there and and she's left a way of starting it alone to be do her chores and I should say she does do her chores when we're she's away well that's really something to think about that she's able to do it mhm and a reason for not doing it is the kind of thing we've been she may it may
• 50:30 - 51:00 take her forever to do them but she does get them done well maybe well uh I I think this is what we'd want to say to you at the end of this time together that Victor's loss was such a great loss for all three of you that in these ways it's hard to get past it but for Pam to get on with her life and for the two of you to get on with yours of being a couple again uh you'd have to be able to to talk
• 51:00 - 51:30 about this loss to cry about it together to maybe to get to where you could visit the grave I don't know I don't want to say yes or no I'm not trying to get you to do something tonight I don't oh no I mean I maybe another 10 years I don't know maybe next year maybe tomorrow I don't know but of course you say Pam doesn't have that much time well yeah okay well we've given you some things to think about and you have given us some things to think about we're very
• 51:30 - 52:00 grateful that you came in to talk with us thank you thank thank you been helpful to okay thanks as you watch this video and you get a chance to to reflect on it is this a good example of object relations work I I think this is the way that we work and it's it's a an example that's right in the center of what we'd like to demonstrate um the