Trump's Plan for Gaza

Estimated read time: 1:20

Summary

In this impromptu episode, Alistair Campbell and Rory Stewart react to Donald Trump's controversial statement about taking over the Gaza Strip. The episode explores Trump's declaration to relocate the people of Gaza and transform it into an American territory, likened to a beachfront development. The conversation delves into the practicality and legality of such a plan, emphasizing the geopolitical implications and reactions from global leaders. The discussion also touches on broader themes of Trump's disruptive approach to international politics and the potential fallout in the Middle East.

Highlights

Trump's bizarre Gaza beachfront development plan has left the world scratching its head! 🤔
The proposed plan to relocate Gazans is being compared to a modern-day diaspora. 📜
Campbell and Stewart lay bare the unrealistic and potentially illegal nature of Trump's Gaza announcement. 🚫
The duo explores the potential backlash from key US allies and the broader Middle Eastern region. 🌐
Despite the uproar, Trump’s statement might not shake his stalwart base—now that's political Teflon! 🍳

Key Takeaways

Trump's latest plan to take over Gaza and turn it into a beachfront development has shocked and puzzled many. 🌊🏗️
The proposed relocation of Gazans to Egypt and Jordan is seen as unfeasible and akin to ethnic cleansing. 🚧
Campbell and Stewart discuss the profound geopolitical implications of Trump's statement, raising concerns about its legality and the lack of consultation with key global players. 🌍⚖️
The episode highlights Trump's disruptor role in international politics, causing more chaos than clarity. 🌪️
Despite the audacious plan, Trump's support base may remain unaffected, showcasing his unique political resilience. 🧱

Overview

The latest episode dives into a wild announcement from Donald Trump, in which he casually suggests taking over the Gaza Strip and transforming it into a flashy beachfront property under American control. Alistair Campbell and Rory Stewart, fresh off a trip from Syria and Lebanon, analyze this statement with a mix of disbelief and exasperation, examining the deep-rooted, international ramifications.

Trump's proposal to move Gazans to neighboring countries while America 'cleans up' Gaza raises alarms with many global observers. Campbell and Stewart weigh heavy criticism against the plan, noting its eerie similarities to ethnic cleansing and its stark departure from grounded international diplomacy. Legal concerns are rife, with questions about the plan's adherence to international laws and conventions.

This episode doesn’t just stop at the outrageous announcement. It delves deeper into Trump’s tendency to operate outside traditional norms, often at the expense of established alliances and regional stability. The dialogue also considers why, despite such moving declarations, Trump's core support is likely to remain unwavering, underscoring his unusual political dynamics.

Chapters

00:00 - 02:00: Introduction and Trump's Announcement on Gaza The chapter introduces the sudden and unexpected nature of the episode, suggesting an important and timely update related to Trump's announcement on Gaza.
02:00 - 05:00: Trump's Vision for Gaza The chapter discusses the geopolitical implications of a recent announcement by the White House, declaring that the US, under President Donald J. Trump, will take over the Gaza Strip. The hosts, Alistair Campbell and Rory Stewart, are back from a visit to Syria and Beirut. The chapter aims to delve into the nuances and intentions behind this surprising and bold statement by Trump, reflecting on its potential impacts on international relations and regional stability.
05:00 - 13:00: Reactions to Trump's Announcement Donald Trump made a clear statement about the U.S. taking over the Gaza Strip and doing a job with it during a press conference with Benjamin Netanyahu, who is visiting the United States. He also mentioned the U.S. would 'own' Gaza.
13:00 - 21:00: Implications for U.S. and Middle East Politics The chapter discusses the dismantling of dangerous unexploded bombs and the destruction of buildings at a certain site. It also touches on the political and social implications, particularly focusing on the relocation of Palestinians to Jordan and Egypt.
21:00 - 31:00: Discussion on Palestinian and International Community's Response The chapter discusses initial optimism about the potential temporary relocation of people while Gaza is being rebuilt. However, this idea appears to have evolved, with a new emphasis on an international presence in Gaza. The speaker envisions people from around the world, including Palestinians, living together in Gaza. The chapter also touches upon the United States' role in this context.
31:00 - 40:00: Potential Scenarios for Gaza's Future The chapter discusses potential scenarios for the future of Gaza, particularly highlighting a statement described as a 'long-term ownership position' concerning the territory. The narrative pauses to reflect on how quickly the political dynamics have shifted, particularly with Donald Trump's influence, prompting the need to step back and evaluate the situation beyond immediate perceptions.
40:00 - 50:00: International Law and Historical Context This chapter discusses a radical new plan for Gaza announced by a US president, which represents a significant shift from the long-standing United States policy towards Israel and Palestine since 1948. The chapter explores the historical context and varying degrees of success in the US approach towards the conflict.
50:00 - 58:00: Conclusion and Call to Action This chapter discusses the approach taken by various American presidents in addressing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Traditionally, there has been a focus on finding a settlement that allows both nations to coexist peacefully. In contrast, the Trump administration, particularly through figures like Jared Kushner, proposed transforming the Gaza Strip into a beachfront development, illustrating a significant shift in strategy.

Trump's Plan for Gaza Transcription

00:00 - 00:30 [Music] hello welcome to a very unexpected episode a live stream of
00:30 - 01:00 the rest his politics with me alist Campbell and me Rory Stewart and we're both straight back off a plane we were in Syria yesterday then in Beirut and we're just back and while we were on the plane in fact uh the White House tweeted out the US will take over the Gaza Strip and we will do a job with it to president Donald J Trump which is the reason for this podcast to try to get into that a little bit um shall I do a very quick um attempts to
01:00 - 01:30 summarize what Donald Trump at least is saying before we get into what it actually means for the world so so that's that's the first bit this clear statement the US will take over the Gaza Strip and we will do a job with it too which was from his standing up press conference with Netanyahu and then there were a series of other comments that he made Benjamin Netanyahu is of course visiting the United States at the moment he said the US would own Gaza be
01:30 - 02:00 responsible for dismantling all of the dangerous unexploded bombs and other weapons on the site level the site get rid of the destroyed building and level it out and then He suggests very clearly that the people uh who currently live there other the Palestinians whose whose territory it is whose country it is being relocated to Jordan and Egypt um
02:00 - 02:30 initially it looked like this might be people being optimistic a temporary relocation so that he was going to move them out while he rebuilt gazra and they would come back but on being pushed further on that that doesn't seem to be the idea anymore he said I envis the people living there the world's people I think the entire world representatives from all over the world will be there Palestinians also will live there many people will live there and on the Us's relation to this
02:30 - 03:00 territory he said he saw in inverted commas a long-term ownership position right I'm I'm going to stop there C can we just I mean just before we get any further into what this might mean in the real world outside Trump's head I I think we've become so used to Donald Trump in just a few short weeks that we we forget about just how these things are supposed to happen so we just take a step back for a second
03:00 - 03:30 what would normally go into a US president making a new announcement on a very radical new plan for Gaza well the thing about this one is that you well it is a it is a pretty much a reversal or a total upending of what has been the United States approach to Israel Palestine since the creation of Israel in 1948 um with varing degrees of success
03:30 - 04:00 and enthusiasm most American presidents have sort of Taken on the responsibility of of trying to lead towards some sort of settlement which allows Israelis and Palestinians to live alongside each other and Trump has essentially come along with this and said no we don't we don't believe in that at all what we believe is in turning the Gaza Strip into kind of beach style beach front development that probably will be run by Jared Kushner um and if you think back let's
04:00 - 04:30 just think back a bit Trump's first term at this stage I just checked at this stage of Trump's first term presidency we'd got through the row about the size of the inauguration crowds we' had a few kind of mad personnels things going on well that's been repeated and then we were into sort of you know Trump sort of trying to play around with Medicare and Obamacare and all that stuff this time this is just the latest in a series of absolute Ely upending announcements you
04:30 - 05:00 know we had Canada to be the 51st state renaming the Gulf of Mexico we're going to take over Greenland we're going to take back the can Panama Canal we're going to have a global trade war and now we've got this now everybody's saying this thing it's become a bit of a cliche you know you have to focus on what he does not what he says but what he says is a signal you you talked about inside Trump's head that's where a lot of this stuff is happening one of the most lapal parts of his of his press conference
05:00 - 05:30 where he talked about you know how much he'd read history I mean according to people who know Donald Trump he's never read he hasn't even he didn't even read the book that he wrote never mind any other sort of great history books he doesn't necessarily understand this he doesn't even try to understand this he even talked Roy I don't know if You' heard the bit where he said that you know I've looked at all the pictures I've got a better understanding of what's happening in Gaza than anybody well you don't have a better understanding of G what's happening in Gaza and the people who recently been
05:30 - 06:00 walking mile upon mile upon mile because hey guess what Donald they do want to go back to their homes even though they've been demolish they do want to live there yeah so what he's done is is is essentially is saying this is now America and bear in mind Rory part of his shtick to become president again was no more Wars we're going to be out of the wars but what he's done today I think you could make the case has has exacerbated the possib possibility of
06:00 - 06:30 the ceasefire not holding I think it's exacerbated the possibility of the Saudi Israeli normalization situation being being set back and it's exacerbated the possibility of there being a real outpouring in the in the entire region of anti-trumpism anti-americanism so he's set back I think he's setting back any progress that you might have been hoping for um let's just just do a a quick uh I guess summary of Where We Are with Gaza itself so Gaza was of course
06:30 - 07:00 where the horrifying October 7th attack was launched from and Gaza has been the site of this unprecedented Israeli ret retaliation in which Israel has killed almost 50,000 people including a lot of women and children and of course a lot of I think we're I think we're above that now I think I think the latest figur is way about that okay so it's this is the Gaza we're talking about and it's a Gaza in which 70 % perhaps of buildings maybe
07:00 - 07:30 80% have been destroyed the economy has there's an image for people watching just as a sort of reminder of of what it looks like and you would you would have seen this in Drone footage people would have seen this in in many images but that's a before and after shot here's another before and after shot and so it's a situation which the economy has collapsed uh water's Gone electricity's Gone people have gone from being in a middle-income country to being one of the poorest countries in the world dependent on uh International
07:30 - 08:00 Food a yeah so there are broadly speaking four things that could happen to Gaza uh there is the realistic there's the pessimistic there's the optimistic and then there's the trumpian um so the trumpan we've we've heard a bit about and you've explain that and you're quite right I mean he talks about it being a lovely piece of property on the Mediterranean with lovely weather and it could be a Riviera
08:00 - 08:30 and I think in his mind he seems to think that he's going to just redevelop it he a property developer and it's going to be a fancy Beach Resort and when he says the world can live there I guess he envisages it as a sort of one of those islands off the coast of Dubai so let's kind of Park that for a moment then we've got the pessimistic the pessimistic is that Israel wants no responsibility for Gaza and wants to spend no money on Gaza it also for
08:30 - 09:00 security reasons wants to control the borders into Gaza and it wants to be able to launch strikes into Gaza whenever it feels threatened and in that scenario Gaza will probably continue indefinitely to be a one of the most horrifying places on Earth the super
09:00 - 09:30 optimistic scenario which is the scenario which Britain and the International Community has been trying to get to is a scenario in which Israel at least accepts that Gaza should be reconstructed facilitates it by allowing the borders to open allows political structures to be put in place and then maybe with money from Saudi and UAE and some support from Egypt and Jordan and with the United Nations and
09:30 - 10:00 International Players there is some sort of postconflict reconstruction plan for Gaza and then the realist position which is probably the toughest of all but is the one that's most likely to lead to things actually improving is a situation which would be very difficult for Israel which was a situation where you would have a genuine Palestinian Authority in charge in Gaza because I don't think Saudi or UAE are going to want to provide security challenge
10:00 - 10:30 terrorists on the ground it would have to be Palestinians doing that Palestinian Authority it would have to probably be there with the consent of Hamas or it would be in a civil war an armed civil war with Hamas and the Reconstruction would happen brutally slowly um but it would be led by the people of Gaza and then and then finally you've got the Trump position over back to you I mean you you said in in your earlier question you know what would in normal times and of
10:30 - 11:00 course we all accept now we don't have a normal president in normal times what would have happened you would have had a sense of this coming um you've got everybody knew that Trump was going to be seen n Yahoo even before the meeting the White House were briefing the press that this was going to be looking at a long-term plan to try to rebuild end the war rebuild Gaza get people back into their home so even within the White House that was where they thought they were and then you had this sort of almost like a kind of unfolding drama
11:00 - 11:30 you know I said on the main podcast that we put out this morning that you've got to think in inside Trump's head as though he's is is in his own NeverEnding reality TV show the Canada tariff show that didn't go totally according to plan that that Trudeau guy he hit back a bit harder than I thought he would so I sort of I I present it as a win but deep in his heart he knows that wasn't great need a new story today oh I've got BB coming in let's do something really big and dramatic about Gaza so he was he was sitting at his desk a few executive
11:30 - 12:00 orders and he sort of started to float the idea about you know maybe the gazans just have to leave Gaza and then by the time he'd got to the Press then he did another one when he had um BB was in for a little sort of fireside chat the cameras came in he developed the plan a little bit more and then come the press conference out with all this absolutely amazing stuff the US will own Gaza now the thing is normally an American president who's going to make a big policy announcement would get a bit of international
12:00 - 12:30 humanitarian legal advice um excuse me Mr lawyer is this is this legal and anybody who knows anything about international law say straight away no Mr President is not doesn't give a damn about that you go back to the Geneva Convention the Rome statute of the international criminal court all of these things will tell you you cannot do this because you're e you're ethnically cleansing you're ethnically cleansing a population you're forc removing population civilian population that doesn't want to move and in this case an entire ethnic group correct correct in
12:30 - 13:00 fact to be fair you've been saying for some weeks that what he said about moving all the gazans into Egypt and Jordan is ethnic cleansing and and that so it's so it's illegal um it's not clear where you get any Authority at all for it and the way he presented presented it really was a case of you know you can take the you can take the the property developer away from being a property developer but you're never going to stop Trump talking behaving like a property developer the whole
13:00 - 13:30 thing was we're going to build these beautiful homes have am create create all these amazing jobs and then this this idea that you know we've just come back from Syria as you say and I was I was talking to a friend on the way back from the airport and I said you know it's amazing being in Syria people just coming up to us when they recognize that you know we're clearly not Syrian and just coming up the whole time saying welcome welcome nice to have you here and this friend of mine said yeah the exact opposite reaction that they get whenever they try and go anywhere and so Trump's fine about saying two million
13:30 - 14:00 refugees what's not to like about it but you know build a wall in Mexico and it's just it's like it's it's happening over there without a bit like the A's thing that we talked about in the main podcast the pep far no concept of the impact that this actually has on real people real families who right now as if they haven't been through enough have to wake up and fine Donald Trump wants to turn this into the 51st state and he's doing it in the place which has of course been
14:00 - 14:30 the center point of much of the instability of the world for the last 80 years absolutely and his doing it was probably the four most important American Allies in the world so involved in this are Jordan Egypt Israel and Saudi yeah and he doesn't seem to have consulted with any of them the only one who's who's happy is Israel because Netanyahu takes this as and this probably is the biggest story hiding under this whole thing is what didn't happen in the press
14:30 - 15:00 conference and what didn't happen in the press conference was any significant pressure on Netanyahu to formalize or make a Cy no and Netanyahu would have taken away from this he has a complete C Blanch from Trump to do whatever he wants Trump is talking much more extreme language than even even actually smartr or benav have said and it's why we we said many times that in a sense you kept saying why is netan why do they keep on with the bombing why are they doing this the answer is they were waiting for
15:00 - 15:30 Trump trump has arrived I mean the the one of the most folsome tributes to Trump came from benir and he said that you know he's absolutely right the only solution to Gaza is for the gazans to leave Gaza yeah and then they can they can settle and this of course is is is what smrc has been quite explicit about in the West Bank as well where he has you know he refers to the West Bank as Judea and Samaria and he says that the Palestinians who live in the West Bank um either submit or leave or will be
15:30 - 16:00 killed so as does the new American ambassador as the new American he also first Judea and Samaria yeah yeah I don't think he's he's said the stuff about being killed here but I I think the so we've got Israel if we look at the other countries Jordan Jordan already has a very fragile situation its economy's in trouble it's been hosting huge number of refugees already million refugees from Syria millions of Palestinian refugees historically the majority of the population in Jordan is of Palestinian descent if Jordan were to
16:00 - 16:30 take another million refugees it would totally upset not just the Jordanian economy but it would mean that Jordan was living with a overwhelming majority of its population being Palestinian and those Palestinians would be so angry with the hashimite monarchy that Jordan would become seriously politically unstable so it's not an option for Jordan uh Egypt now Egypt I think is in a slight different position but Egypt for other
16:30 - 17:00 reasons historically has not wanted to have a very large Palestinian population imposed on it partly because it's economically fragile it doesn't want more refugees and it doesn't want more instability Saudi again can't really coun this I mean Saudi wants still despite the unreliability of trump and the way he behaves a defense deal with the US they they still somehow think it's worth trying to push for some kind of security guarantees out of the United States States but they can't sign up to
17:00 - 17:30 something of this sort what they will probably do and what UAE will probably do is is not say a great deal that explicitly you'll get some from ambassadors but yeah well the the Saudi government was amongst the first to respond and basically said you know we unequivocally reject this this proposal and and frankly practically everybody has Russia China the UK fairly sort of moderate langu but right around the world people are
17:30 - 18:00 basically saying what on Earth are you talking about and then I guess the final bit which we is at the center of the whole thing because the people have Gods themselves and the people of gods themselves uh will not want to move I mean now Trump's idea seems to be that you could build them lovely accommodations somewhere else I notice he's not offering his own country but in someone else's country and that you'd give them money and they'd think this is great I'm going to get some lovely money and I'm going to get a new house somewhere else um and there are many reasons why they wouldn't do that one of
18:00 - 18:30 them is of course they wouldn't believe it for a moment right you're not going to leave your home believing you're going to be given a large lump of cash and who's giving you the large lump of cash sh as ex's eggs Donald Trump who's just shut down USA ID is not proposing to he also he Al he also is very explicit other a bit like the Mexicans will pay for the wall other countries will will pay for this and on the and on the point about accommodation Ro you and I yesterday driving back from um Damascus to Beirut we went through the Becca Becca Valley and you know mile
18:30 - 19:00 upon mile of refugee camps which you however you think I was I was i' i' never done it in daylight before and just these it's literally just gray it wasn't you couldn't even call it tents it was gray canvas and as you said there are children in their teens who have lived in places like that forever so Trump will try and give the idea that this is we're going to give them nice little condo and they're going to have nice little places to say this is just a sort of big bold idea that gets the
19:00 - 19:30 world talking which is what he loves and he doesn't know where it's going to go he doesn't necessarily care where it's going to go but it's him dominating the the space dominating the airwaves and just getting everybody else to react so here's a weird thing so Ben Shapiro who is a uh somebody I know who does a podcast in the US very big podcast very big right-wing podcaster um says undoubtedly the most extraordinary and unexpected element of Trump's first term was his remaking the Middle East a Nobel prew worthy accomplishment by
19:30 - 20:00 thinking outside the box recognizing actual hard realities and ignoring the convential idiocy of The Blob he's doing the same now with Gaza this vision is absolutely transformative and then this is the key you talked about the the leader principle where uh whatever the leader says it's right and and this is where Ben Shapiro articulates this he says whether this is his final vision of the region number one two a negotiating tactic to achieve better deals or three
20:00 - 20:30 something else there's no doubt that Trump's creative thinking is breaking the mold and changing things let Donald J Trump cook so it's um I'm struggling for the literary analogy with this but it it's very much what when we were talking in Switzerland to the former Speaker of the House Kevin McCarthy whenever you call him out on one of Trump's statements he say he's a businessman it's a negotiating Tech you know maybe he's just saying he wants to take ownership of G and drive out the population but in fact what he's doing
20:30 - 21:00 is he's saying it to pressure the Palestinians into a two-state solution or yeah what do you what do you make of that sort of strange language where you know doesn't matter whether he he might be doing this he might be doing that he might be doing something else but there's no doubt he's a genius there's a plan yeah what what I think we we all try to do is to make sense of stuff that actually deep in our hearts we think is probably nonsense so he comes out with this I I if you were going to do this and you genuin wanted this to work I do not
21:00 - 21:30 believe for one second that the place to launch that is at this sort of stepbystep dribble out through the day engagement with BB Netanyahu you would want to get the Saudis on board you would want to get the the the the UAE to sort of not to reject it immediately you probably would want to think that you know maybe this is a place where I can be a unifier can try and bring the United Nations back into this you'd have had a plan for this this feels to me like he's just think oh we got BB
21:30 - 22:00 coming in tomorrow we've got to think of something big we can't just sort of you know we can't just have sort of you know few talking points thing so and and and this is big this is unbelievably big this is like you know this is as I said earlier a total reversal of of of long-standing American policy now he could argue I was elected to change American policy I was elected to be a disruptor I'm going to disrupt but I think the shapiros and the musks of this world the people who refuse to accept that he actually might just be a bit stupid and say really stupid
22:00 - 22:30 irresponsible Reckless things they find reasons to say this is actually a really clever thing to do and I I just think you know we're gonna get we're gonna have to get used to this I showed you some dat I showed you some data on the plan Rory and you know here we are talking about him eight out of 10 of our most listened to episodes last year were about Donald Trump you know was slightly playing his game he he he he just wants the whole world to be talking about him all the time and the way to do that is
22:30 - 23:00 to keep having ideas doesn't matter where they go so far as he's concerned because by tomorrow he'll be on to another one the the one of the things that I think is a real risk here probably the most likely risk so I think let's assume I mean I've been wrong about things in the past but it seems at the moment that the overwhelming likelihood is this isn't going to happen because yeah how could it happen I mean you'd have to send in the US Military and drive garons out at the point of guns and you have children and women being driven
23:00 - 23:30 out by American soldiers into countries that don't want to take them so assuming he isn't actually going to do that he might he might I suppose conceivably but let let's assume it's not going to happen then the problem is this that he's been talking about it now for longer than we think I mean he's he's crystallized it today but he started on this uh couple weeks ago and actually Jared Kushner was giving some versions of something that sounded similar a few months ago yeah the waterfront the
23:30 - 24:00 waterfront in Gaza could be very valuable he said Israel should move them out and clean it up yeah so Mr said so part of the problem is that if For Better or Worse Donald Trump has got this thing stuck in his head and he begins to dig in and it doesn't happen and everybody rejects it Saudi rejects it UAE rejects it Jordan rejects it Egypt rejects it the gazans rejected the like Hood it seems to me is
24:00 - 24:30 that he then will get uh Angry and he will use this as Su justification to do absolutely nothing he will say I produced my plan you didn't like my plan there is now going to be no us support there's going to be no us money anra is shutting down Jordan's not getting any money I me remember Jordan 40% of Key Parts security government budget rely on the United States yeah that'll be cut off and he will use this as an excuse uh
24:30 - 25:00 to do something which will make the situation in Gaza unbearable because I'm afraid the brutal reality is that without the United States there is no incentive really for Saudi or UAE to get involved their main reason to get involved is not actually that they want to help gazit they want to defense guarantee from the US Europe in its current populous mood feeling that its economy has strugg is not going to lean in and take the full responsibility on
25:00 - 25:30 Gaza Israel is not going to do anything to facilitate uh certainly hamus having any role but probably not the Palestinian Authority either if smartr and benav have anything to do with it they want the fighting to start again and so what we've really heard basically is Trump saying Gaza will remain in horror for the next four years yeah there was a very is his the Ambassador during his first term guy called David fredman he was another one who was saying this
25:30 - 26:00 is great thinking outside the box it needs something to break this and and he he then I think sort of slightly gave the game away because he he he was clearly sort of so excited by the whole thing and he went is this Mara Gazo or gazal Lago and this notion that you can just turn something like the Gaza Strip now listen by the way don't get me wrong if you could you know we were in Beirut yesterday yeah last night and this morning yeah and I found it quite astonishing you're
26:00 - 26:30 driving through the through the city you've got this incredible beautiful view down to the Mediterranean got some fantastic sort of scenery you got wonderful buildings and then every few hundred yards you just see this bombed out building okay and which has been hit by an Israeli by an Israeli in in recent weeks yeah yeah and so and you think yeah well I could see why maybe you wouldn't want to come here on holiday with that still going on or you know the fact that we when we went to Syria we did so having being given the very formal advice by the foreign office this
26:30 - 27:00 is not a clever not a very sensible thing to do as it happens felt you know where we where we were perfectly safe now the point the point I'm making is that you can see why the idea of a big Vision to turn this into something more positive more more economically vibrant so fine but to do that at the expense of 200 two million people being told they got to move from their Homeland and also I tell you the other thing which I think is goes to the heart of this I've told you before about a discussion I was
27:00 - 27:30 involved in with Tony Blair and George Bush and Dick Cheney and we were talking about democratization and I I made the point that you know every time you people talk about democracy the world hears you saying America you think everybody wants to be like America and I think particularly now with Trump in power I think an awful lot of people do not want to be like America and this idea that the people of Gaza are going to go wow we could get a casino we could get a golf course maybe Donald Trump will drive his his little his little you
27:30 - 28:00 know mobile thingy bob on the golf course they want their own place they want their own culture they want their own they want their own future and they want to be able to build it I mean there's one small thing which is I mean which is just another maybe a good way of illustrating the extent to which Trump hasn't bothered to think this through which is that even in the most optimistic idea which some of his supporters were spinning a couple of days ago that his plan was to remove everybody and then build a really nice
28:00 - 28:30 place and bring all the Palestinians back again um you can't do stuff like that because you lose all the property boundaries I mean the reason why you when you reconstruct any place that's been devastated by War you do it with the people there is that you're reconstructing their homes you're not building uh I mean unless I suppose you're um Stalin's Russia you're not suddenly building a whole series of brand new apartment blocks with no no resemblance to the pre-existing
28:30 - 29:00 footprint I mean how on Earth do you sort out people's claims their compensation their ownership their buildings or any of this stuff um we we've got um we've got some very interesting stuff uh coming in now from different people one person I thought um which was quite good let's just try to get it up um is somebody saying where mirac the biggest fallacy of Trump's plan is to think the problem is with the land I'm just to expand on that for a second give that back to you the the
29:00 - 29:30 point is that even if you moved all the Palestinians just over the border to Egypt and then you moved Israelis into Gaza why would that really suddenly solve Israel's security problems you would still have some very very angry Palestinians sitting on the edge of your new bit of Israeli territory you're just pushing your problem a bit further up absolutely there was a very the the thing I think the reason why this I
29:30 - 30:00 suspect will be really eating into the hearts of the Palestinians is because one of the things that kind of is you know part of their mindset part of their culture part of their focus and why they feel so strongly in the way they do is that you know 800,000 were forced to leave their home their homes back in 1948 for the creation of the Israeli State and this feels you know if you suddenly have the American president coming along saying the only way now to to to sort of fix this is to move people
30:00 - 30:30 out it feels like another kind of expulsion another rejection and the way that he framed it you know everybody I've spoken to loves the idea of the US owning that piece of land well who has he spoken to who has he actually spoken to because I've got to be honest I've I've read a lot of reaction to this and apart from the the kind of you know the total cheerleaders like musk and the the kind of you know the some of the people we've talked about so far virtually everybody seems to be saying this is
30:30 - 31:00 nuts and it's dangerously nuts well I I think the reason it's sort of fits them with the Z gist is that it's completely sight gist sight gist sight gist is it's completely abstract um it's got I mean it's got no the thing it doesn't so you can sort of as you say um imagine that if you were sitting in maral Lago and looked quickly at a picture on a screen uh you would say okay this this
31:00 - 31:30 looks absolutely terrible and uh and then he says you know the war is going to continue and people having a miserable life so wouldn't it be better if they lived somewhere else and we cleared all this and made some nice new buildings and he can probably develop that a bit more if you really wanted to play out the Trump position you could say well actually Gaza doesn't have the complicated religious claims that Jerusalem has for example uh it's a a very very interesting bit of territory with a
31:30 - 32:00 strong history but it's not bound up in the same way that that um it's not part of the historic state of Israel and it's not it's not where the prophet's Dome of the Rock was located or any of this stuff right the the problem is that it's just not listening to anyone talking about any real people yeah the heart of it is he's not asking himself what what do the gazans think you know what would they do or you know we're going to move everyone to Egypt do the would the Egyptians and jordanians accept this but
32:00 - 32:30 they don't the Saudis going to pay are the Saudis going to pay I mean and and here's here's wig I'm going to come to you on this one does no one understand how different spouting nonsense about Israel gazer is compared to tariffs so I think just to push you on that for a second that's a good point from Wick that he's that yes you're right to some extent it's realan TV but it's a level of irresponsibility and
32:30 - 33:00 recklessness going right in punching the very most sensitive thing in global politics at the moment alienating absolutely Central American Allies in Egypt Saudi Jordan I mean it's a it's a sort of move Beyond tariffs isn't it oh absolutely but you know if you look at the what happened in relation to tariffs the big Target were also people that actually most Americans particularly Canada would see as allies
33:00 - 33:30 they don't think they're at war with Canada they may think they've got a problem with Mexican drug cartels and so for but they don't think they're at war with Mexico and likewise in the Middle East okay let's give let's give him some credit where it's due the Abraham Accords and that sort of move towards the normalization of relations between some of the really the powers in the Middle East that have had such difficult relations over so many decades that was a good thing that was a good thing and yet this it seems to me goes against that because he cannot resist the idea
33:30 - 34:00 of having these big bold plans where people like Shapiro people like musk whatever people like McCarthy they will give them some kind of intellectual coherence that actually they probably don't deserve and there was a on in the the car on the way back from the the airport I was listening to an interview with um he was the Justice minister in the Palestinian Authority and from Gaza and he he said something I thought really quite moving he said look we've we've been here for thousands of
34:00 - 34:30 years and we want to stay here and it made me think of you know things like the Highland clearances and the Irish Potato Famine and all of these things where bigger Powers suddenly decide that you are just porns in my game and the game that Trump is playing at the moment is I can reshape the world and I've got this sort of I'm I'm not a president I'm an emperor and if you're an emperor you can you know we've talked before about their obsession with Julius Caesar and this idea that you know so he starts off
34:30 - 35:00 he's going for Canada he's going for Mexico he's going for Greenland he's going for Panama he's renaming the Gulf of Mexico the Gulf of America and now out of nowhere he's going to turn part of the Middle East not into American influence but literally American owned it is off the scale and I just let me just just fin this final little Point yeah I really do hope I when we were in the states we met some people who were you know Arabs from Michigan who
35:00 - 35:30 basically said yeah there's something about there's something about C Harris I don't quite like uh well you know they've now got Trump and how's that going for Gaza right now the extraordinary one of the many extraordinary things about it is that it's going to damage him with his voes much much less than you could ever imagine so you we can explain this other people can explain this till the cows
35:30 - 36:00 come home right I mean this should be a fantastic litmus test that lets the entire world see this guy is completely irresponsible alienating his allies doesn't do his homework doing something incredibly dangerous and is actually the reverse of what he said he was doing which is making more peaceful world as you said at the beginning and yet we have got to a state where his Charisma and people's contempt for the Democrats is so much that you literally I mean
36:00 - 36:30 this is where he said it didn't he when he said you know I can shoot someone dead in yeah in Fifth Avenue nobody care I don't think his supporters will care at all I don't think this is likely to have any effect on his net popularity they will feel probably that let me let me try some thoughts uh a lot of people who are pro Israel will think well great I mean I'm not listening to detail of this but it sounds like it's good for Israel and bad for Palestinians so good on him other people who will say well it's beating up a bunch of Muslims and
36:30 - 37:00 they're terrorists and troublemakers so great um if you talk about you know what the impact will be on Jordan and Egypt they'll think well screw Gordon and Egypt we're not interested in Jordan and Egypt anyway um and they love probably the sense of raw power I mean this this is this thing we've talked about in the past which I think is a very very worrying thing I I've I've been spending too much time recently um looking at American bro podcasts and some British Tech bro
37:00 - 37:30 podcasts and they're usually kind of really well put together young men who spend quite a lot of time in the gym and invest in I'm being a bit mean here but invest in cryptocurrency and love reading um biographies of of American billionaires and they love sharing uh Tech tips and and life hacks yeah and and one of the things they absolutely love about Trump is the idea that he's a disruptor they've got in his head that he's a guy like you know they keep using
37:30 - 38:00 this analogy Elon Musk came along looked at electric cars and realized that they were spending all this money on lithium batteries and he took it back to First principles and worked out reversed engineer it you didn't need so many so much lithium and he made a much cheaper electric vehicle and Trump is like that um and I don't know what it would take to to damage um this group short of him launching and losing a major war I I can't actually see what he can do that can I mean well yeah Rory but just on
38:00 - 38:30 that I mean look we I've said right at the start that he's a very different Trump to the first term Trump But ultimately he's the same person and I don't think that much of what he does is going to work because I don't think he's sticks at things he moves on to the next episode he moves on to the next thing um so I where where there is a massive Gap at the moment there is no coherent Democrat uh campaigning opposition against him you see bit and Bobs of it here and there they really really are in
38:30 - 39:00 a bit of State we you have Tommy Vita ex Obama going leading this week and and I think he accepts the Democrats really haven't got their act together he's definitely using this first few weeks and months to really impose himself in a way that he maybe didn't first time around very good question here from Will Taylor Rory guys that's us are we going to do an emergency podcast anytime Trump opens his mouth don't we have to an obligation to consider whether it's credible and that's a fair point because I as I've said earlier I do think this is partly about Tommy Vita said that you
39:00 - 39:30 know he will always get joy out of outraging and upsetting People Like Us okay that that owning the libs thing is part of what he does but I think if you've got the elected president literally saying will that he that the the policy of the United States now is to turn Gaza into an American owned extension of the United States that is worth talking about I agree though my instinct is always with musk and Trump to say let's just hold back for a while
39:30 - 40:00 but I think on this one we we're right do this we we I think we have to because I mean I I look I don't want to seem hysterical but there there are I'm increasingly believe that it feels like the 1930s now it feels like the 1930s with the way that obsequious business people and media magnets are justifying horrendous statements it feels like the 1930s when you've got the dominant party in Austria talking about removing
40:00 - 40:30 Austrian citizens who are not white Austrian citizens and where the afd appears to have people right at the core of them who are talking about basically expelling Muslims yeah and where we're getting into these debates which feeled very 1930s with people saying oh well you know if you assimilate as a Muslim you're okay but if you're not assimilating you're twoo alien we're going to have to remove you from the country and I don't think it would have been appropriate in the 1930s standing up against fascism to say well
40:30 - 41:00 we'll just ignore these people we don't want to give them a time because the fact is that's all very well when they're running for office but when he is the president of the most powerful wealthiest country on Earth with the largest military on Earth no you can't ignore what he says there's a question here from AAP no who I think is an Israeli I really hope Rory ner don't start talking about benir and smrc like their anomalies 90% of Israelis support the expulsion of arrows from Gaza I don't know if that's true or not this is
41:00 - 41:30 a deeply rotten Society I mean that is an interesting point as to whether we probably do I think still have a view of of Israel as as having a very very sizable liberal population however you know we've seen and we talked about this to you will know Harari and to others we've seen Israelis who absolutely despise Netanyahu who nonetheless do feel very threatened do feel very motivated by a more National istic sense of who and and and what they
41:30 - 42:00 are there was one question which I can no longer find um but it was somebody who was saying that what these all this stuff here we are Elaine chalice to what extent is this pronouncement on Gaza distraction Politics diverting the world and its media from the illegality of the ongoing dismemberment of the US state by Elon Musk this relates to the whole thing about you know getting access to federal information etc etc etc and you've got to be careful with Trump because he is that is what he's good at what he's brilliant at is kind of
42:00 - 42:30 playing the media attacking the media undermining the media and getting them to dance to his tune I don't mean dance to his tune say that they think he's great that lots of them do but dance to his tune in where he wants them to go they go um we've been challenged by somebody again on the on the smartr bav thing so let let let's be clear smri benav are very very Fringe uh extremists right they have a few percentage of the vote in Israel where you're absolutely
42:30 - 43:00 right aliser though is that Israel support for the war is very very high and encompasses the majority of the population and the majority population a lot of polls have not favored a ceasefire you're also right that I notice now um that people are more and more reluctant to talk about Palestinians and people are less and less interested in the idea of a two-state solution and Netanyahu who is
43:00 - 43:30 a Wily politician senses that y um I think many Israelis feel that it's very difficult to disentangle Hamas from Gaza and were very shaken when the hostages were returned to see people in Hamas fatigues and that's a problem for Netanyahu because he promised that he'd destroyed Hamas and they're clearly very much still there um and I think at the heart of it is is that many Israelis understandably having been through this
43:30 - 44:00 attack which completely threw them off balance uh and reminded people of the horror of pograms want to try to live in a zero risk environment and that's a very unfair thing to say but I'm afraid it's true and the problem with trying to live in a zero risk environment is you put 100% of the risk on someone else so there's no longer a practical conversation happening about what exactly happened on October 7th how could you have prevented it what kind of standoff would you need how would you
44:00 - 44:30 prevent uh Hamas posing a significant security threat to Israel the desire now is 100% security and 100% security does not at the moment seem to be consistent with allowing Gaza to have a its own Administration and rebuild itself because uh so many Israelis are concerned that if it were rebuilt tunnels would be rebuilt hammer infastructure be rebuilt and they would be a threat again yeah there's there's a
44:30 - 45:00 comment here from somebody called Lyle saying Trump understands people way better than you guys what I'd say to that LE ly he understands some people way better than we do and he understands those Americans who put him in power way better than we do possibly but I think going around different parts of the world there is this sort of massively well organized well-funded very farri campaign I think Trump's part must part of it we've got elements of it here in the UK and around Europe but I think
45:00 - 45:30 most decent people around the world are actually utter rol utterly revolted by Trump and I find it sad that so many people R mentioned the ones in business but there's also people in politics right around the world who feel that because he's been reelected somehow they have to stop telling their own truth and I don't think that that is the way to deal with Trump I think the way that people have stood up to this today better than they did over sanctions we've got question time coming out tomorrow or there was the there was the
45:30 - 46:00 question you know why Canada is a member of the Commonwealth and we've got very very close ties but I I did you hear any of our politicians standing up and speaking up for Canada um you know we've got to understand this guy this we we saw when we're in Davos we were talking to some people who would sort of describe themselves as kind of geostrategic experts and they were basically saying it's a very very interesting question today as to whether the biggest threat to the UK comes from America or China um now it's it's weird
46:00 - 46:30 that we even might even allow that into our thinking yeah and I I would still say no it's China but I just think we've got to understand we're dealing with somebody here is not just unpredictable but he's utterly unreliable because it's all about him we we had a challenge from e+u saying Rory you're wrong um shinb mosad the Army would oppose the occupation of Gaz that's absolutely right Israel does not want to be an occupying power in Gaza because that
46:30 - 47:00 would be like what Israel did in Lebanon from 1980 to the mid-2000s they don't want soldiers being killed they don't want the responsibility of Gaza they don't want the cost of trying to occupy Gaza but on the other hand they do not want certainly netanyahu's Coalition do not want a strong successful Palestinian State running Gaza and they don't want a situation which is almost inevitable which is the state reaching some kind of understanding with hammer which have a big de facto presence on the ground so
47:00 - 47:30 Israel is between a rock and a hard place and the likelihood is what they will do is not occupy Gaza not take responsibility for reconstructing but nor will they allow the Palestinian Authority to establish itself in Gaza instead it will continue being pummeled to rubble and there will be occasional humanitarian convoys Lettin but never enough because Israel will continue to demand that it can stop those convoys any moment that it worries that things are getting into Gaza that it doesn't want to get into Gaza um and it continue
47:30 - 48:00 but let let me sorry that was me replying to The Challenge on the chat can I come back to to to your bigger point though I was talking to a Syrian friend uh two days ago about this and he said when is the world going to come together and stand up to Trump when are people going to actually unify now you you talked about this in relation to Canada but why are we not yet
48:00 - 48:30 seeing a really strong unified response Britain EU Canada G7 saying no we profoundly particularly since as you've said before our instinct is he's some He's a Bully who responds to strength I I don't know when the next G7 Gathering would be and of course at the moment you've got Trudeau on the way out you've got Schulz probably on the way out you got macron weakened um but just let's just imagine
48:30 - 49:00 that the G7 the next G7 was taking place next week okay let's just imagine it was you've got seven people that have always been presented we had the bit when it became G8 and the Russians were there but generally these are seven countries that have a lot to agree on what would the G7 have said if it met the leaders met next week at a time when Trump is saying hey Trudeau you're piddling Little Country should just be part of the mine that you you have to or night
49:00 - 49:30 now if let's say there was a meeting of NATO heads of government tomorrow what is the prime minister of Denmark meant to say across a table with NATO members there to Trump who's basically saying I can take over a huge chunk Greenland a huge chunk of your country so I think we've got to stop pretending and stop kidding ourselves that we're living in normal times with a normal American president we're dealing with somebody who I think you're right I think people are going to have to stand up this is a very good example of where it could happen I actually think for you know one
49:30 - 50:00 of the maybe even one of the permanent five leaders to say maybe it's time just to have a bit of a clear the a kind of discussion at the United Nations about this or maybe we need to you know if we're now talking about such a fundamental change in the Middle East let's have a special G7 let's have a special meeting of the of the key players in the Middle East um because what you can't do is just have every world leader every day wake up and see what what rubbish he's come out with overnight and then have all these kind
50:00 - 50:30 of cheerleaders saying there's method in the madness um one of the problems which Sarah Khan who's one of our subscribers just uh pointed out in the comments is that from the point of view of many people Biden was not that great on international law either and that that will be true for people who feel strong solidarity for gazar and Palestinians it's also true for the gulf Arabs so part part of the problem is we're positing it that there is was an old world where you could sort of if you
50:30 - 51:00 were the gulf or the Palestinians you could rely on Europe and the United States and now suddenly Trump's comeing from their point of view they would say for example let's take the houthis so the houthis fired rockets at Saudi and the US did not protect Saudi and Biden refused to declare the houthis a terrorist group um as soon as the houthis fired rockets at Israel or at ships trying to get to Israel uh Biden intervened and launched air strikes against the houthis in Yemen
51:00 - 51:30 right that would be an example of people thinking there's double standards here they will also think well actually in the end Biden caved into every Israeli demand there was yeah and so one of the challenges I guess is for people like you and me who feel very very strongly that Biden was much much better than Trump is trying to explain um something which is quite difficult which is he's much than Trump despite all his flaws despite all the hypocrisy and of course
51:30 - 52:00 Europe is a much better Ally than Trump again despite all its hypocrisy despite all its history despite all its fors and that's a more difficult argument than just a kind of black and white hero against villain argument there's somebody just put a thing in the chat saying that well there's quite a lot of people saying we've got Trump derangement syndrome I'm not sure about that but anyway um maybe we have but there's somebody's saying that you know Biden actually did fail on this and what he's trying to do what Trump is trying to do is to shake things up because the truth here we go Red Bucks what progress
52:00 - 52:30 between hamers and Israel are you talking about AC I guess I'm talking about the ceasefire the back and forth Slaughter will continue forever unless something Monumental is done Trump is trying to shake things up that is the sort of you know the disruptive that's the saying he's a disruptor he'll shake things up see and there there's an argument for that you could say there's an argument for that by the way the other thing that people are saying the in the chat is that was pointless burbling on about the international criminal court because America is not a party to it however I checked on this earlier today under the Rome statute
52:30 - 53:00 Palestine is um uh party to the ICC and that means that if there are any Americans who take part in such a program inside Palestine they would be uh covered by the the the international criminal court so it's not as simple as just saying because America is not involved but anyway yet again was that did that even go across his desk I doubt it can can I finish we're coming to the end but just um let's just uh finish with a final difficult question for you
53:00 - 53:30 mhm um how does K handle this because again a bit 1930s um we've got a guy who's going around insulting aggressively a lot of the rest of the world while occasionally tempting a bit of a charm offensive against yeah he keeps saying you know really likes K and uh you know he might give them a softer trade deal than he'd give other people and so there will be big
53:30 - 54:00 pressures when Britain is worried about its economy and its growth and this kind of thing to think well maybe maybe we shouldn't you know speak up too much maybe we should let the Europeans speak up maybe you know if we're if we're gentle with him we might be able to get away with stuff what's how how how is how is PE I mean you know on the one hand we're calling people to come together and stand up against Trump on the other hand and this is the problem I'm giving you you're the let's imagine you're the comp's director in number 10 how do you balance that again against um the real politique of what s may want to
54:00 - 54:30 get out of trump yeah well again we talked about this briefly on the main podcast this week about how this the right in particular are trying to force upon Karma this false choice between you can either be with America or you can be with Europe you can't be with both I think he's got to to try to maintain good relations with both I I do think in terms of Economic and diplomatic power far more should be invested in in Europe particularly with Trump being so unreliable but in terms of this specifically I actually think that I was quite encouraged by the way I as soon as
54:30 - 55:00 I I I should do this but as soon as I got off the plane and we were you and I were both sort of looking at our phones as we sat on the plane this morning just checking on all the things that Trump had said and done and one of the first things I did was I texted David lry and said you can't sit this out you've got to say something about this and Anyway by the time I I got home both gar starm and Dave Lamey had said something and and St was asked about it at pmqs and he he was he was fairly
55:00 - 55:30 moderate in the language but he basically said that you know the the gazans want to live there go they want to go home he talked about how these two images in his mind one was of the Israeli hostages being reunited with their families but then the other was of these thousands and thousands of garans you know trudging walking to their homes because they did want to ReDiscover they did want to see how badly damaged they were they did want to see whether they could could rebuild so I think he's
55:30 - 56:00 sticking to the British position is which is that we've got to ultimately keep trying to work towards a two-state solution what he hasn't done is come out and said the sort of things that you and I have said because you know we are no longer political players as it were involved in in this we're as it were commentating from the from the outside but I think I think the important thing is there's got to be values and principles at the heart of this and the the values and the principles say that the British role in this should be to
56:00 - 56:30 keep pressing and keep arguing and fighting for proper Justice for the Palestinians security for the Israelis and and work towards a two-state solution good let's let's finish on that and remember that the thing that's been lost in all of this is the question of Peace for Gaza and reconstruction for Gaza he's just thrown this completely irrelevant unworkable plan down on the table by doing so taken all the pressure on Israel to
56:30 - 57:00 think seriously about what the future of Gaza could be how reconstruction could happen What kind of government it would have the interests of the Palestinians being completely ignored and the world is flaing around dealing with a US president who is in a way that wasn't true really in his first term is trying to set himself up not as he claimed in his in his inaugural address as agent of Peace but as an agent of chaos yeah and just to remind
57:00 - 57:30 people the main podcast this week is already up we're talking about Syria we're talking about Trump and tariffs talking about Germany we're talking about Rory and JD Vance arguing about God we're talking about he thr and growth q&a's up uh overnight tomorrow into tomorrow and then on Monday the interview that Rory and I just come back from Syria doing with the new president of Palestine new president of Syria Ahmed Al Shara which I think you will find very very interesting and by the way one of the reasons we did this
57:30 - 58:00 emergency podcast is because plenty of our subscribers were telling us that they wanted to so if you want to become a subscriber go to the restus politics.com thank you for listening and watching thank you again bye-bye guys