Is Britain lagging behind in the crypto revolution?

Why the UK Is Losing the Bitcoin Race

Estimated read time: 1:20

Summary

The UK might be falling behind in the global Bitcoin race, a concern discussed by crypto enthusiasts in a recent conversation with Bitcoin Collective. This dialogue highlights the nation's slow adoption rate and regulatory constraints that are pushing Bitcoin advocates and entrepreneurs towards more crypto-friendly jurisdictions like Dubai. The discussion also touches upon personal and technical challenges faced by crypto enthusiasts including the complications of tax treatment in the UK, and the role of Bitcoin as both a medium of exchange and a store of value. Despite enthusiasm in the crypto community, the UK government's reluctance to engage in constructive conversations about Bitcoin reflects a broader issue of stagnation in embracing financial innovation.

Highlights

The UK risks lagging in the Bitcoin race due to slow adoption and regulatory issues 🚧
Bitcoin enthusiasts seek to open dialogue about establishing a national Bitcoin reserve 💬
Tax policies in the UK might discourage Bitcoin investment, pushing innovators to countries like Dubai 🇦🇪
There's a struggle for Bitcoin advocates in the UK to find legislative support for digital assets 📜
Many see Bitcoin as a hedge against inflation, challenging traditional investment norms 📈

Key Takeaways

The UK's slow adoption of Bitcoin could leave it economically disadvantaged compared to other nations 🐌
Crypto enthusiasts are concerned about regulatory barriers in the UK driving innovation overseas ✈️
There are significant tax differences between personal and business Bitcoin holdings in the UK 💼
For many, Bitcoin represents both an investment asset and a potential currency of the future 🏦
Educating the public about Bitcoin must be done in simple, relatable terms to bridge understanding 🗣️

Overview

The UK is potentially falling behind in the Bitcoin adoption landscape, which has significant implications for its future economic competitiveness. Discussions have arisen among Bitcoin advocates and crypto experts who fear that without progressive policies, Britain might be left in the digital dust. Such cautionary conversations underscore the need for the UK to seriously consider its position in the burgeoning global crypto economy.

There's a growing sentiment within the crypto community that high taxation and stringent regulations in the UK are hurdles that need to be overcome. As more countries show openness to digital currencies, Britain risks missing out on economic growth opportunities tied to the crypto sector. This fear is fuelling debates around policy reforms, pushing many entrepreneurs to consider more crypto-friendly environments like Dubai.

Amidst these regulatory and adoption challenges, there is a push for comprehensive public education and discourse on Bitcoin's potential. Simplified yet informative approaches to explaining Bitcoin could bridge the understanding gap, allowing more people to see its value beyond just a digital asset. Advocates believe that making crypto education accessible is vital for the UK to foster a thriving financial innovation ecosystem.

Chapters

00:00 - 00:30: Introduction and Concerns The speaker expresses concerns about the UK's potential lag in adopting Bitcoin compared to other nations. They emphasize the personal impact on their family and the importance of establishing a Bitcoin reserve, highlighting their conviction in Bitcoin's significance.
00:30 - 01:00: Guest Introduction The chapter titled 'Guest Introduction' begins with the host Jordan welcoming guest Robin to the show. They express mutual pleasure at being face-to-face after having interacted online. The context suggests this is part of an event or institutional gathering they both attended approximately three weeks prior.
01:00 - 02:00: Identity in Online Interactions The chapter discusses the concept of identity within online interactions, highlighting the anonymity and complexity of recognizing individuals without visual cues such as profile pictures. It explores how people often feel a sense of familiarity despite never having actually met in person, emphasizing the unique nature of online relationships and introductions.
02:00 - 03:00: Career and Starting a Business The chapter begins with a light-hearted interaction, setting a casual and friendly tone. Joe, a recurring character in this narrative, humorously fails to recognize someone due to the absence of glasses, demonstrating a personal connection between the individuals involved.
03:00 - 04:00: Entrepreneurial Journey and Mindset The chapter titled 'Entrepreneurial Journey and Mindset' discusses the speaker's transition from working a typical 9-to-5 job to becoming a full-time entrepreneur. Initially, they began their business alongside their regular employment, but the onset of COVID-19 acted as a catalyst, significantly expanding their business and prompting them to leave their conventional job. The speaker's background is in finance and accounting, with around 20 years of experience, spanning roles in both small businesses and large corporations, including notable FTSE companies.
04:00 - 05:00: Anonymity on Social Media The chapter discusses the inspiration and motivation behind working independently, sparked by a conversation with Alan Smith on a previous episode. The narrative explores the risks and types of personality suited for self-employment, contrasting it with the conventional 9-to-5 mindset.
05:00 - 06:00: Journey into Bitcoin The chapter titled 'Journey into Bitcoin' discusses the motivations and thought processes of individuals who choose to pursue entrepreneurial ventures, particularly in the context of Bitcoin. It highlights the two types of individuals: those who prefer a stable paycheck with minimal tax involvement and those who aspire for freedom through entrepreneurship. The speaker shares a personal anecdote about their aspiration to run a business, initially unsure whether it would involve accountancy or another field. This journey began by doing accounting work for family and friends, gradually expanding from there. The chapter emphasizes the growth of the speaker's career and their exploration into Bitcoin, reflecting on their professional development and entrepreneurial spirit.
06:00 - 08:00: Bitcoin Adoption and Financial Literacy This chapter discusses the communication challenges faced by accountants who often use technical jargon that clients find difficult to understand. The speaker shares a personal experience where effective communication skills contributed to their business success. They recount leaving a previous job due to a conflict of interest over owning a limited company, which ultimately was a beneficial career move. The chapter underscores the importance of clear communication in financial settings.
08:00 - 09:00: Understanding Bitcoin as a Business Person In the chapter titled "Understanding Bitcoin as a Business Person," the speaker discusses the varying perspectives individuals have about entrepreneurship versus traditional employment. They share an anecdote about someone who attempted self-employment but ultimately preferred traditional employment, emphasizing that different people have different preferences. The speaker personally enjoys the freedom that comes with self-employment, though they admit it's hard to articulate exactly what that freedom entails. They acknowledge there is a significant amount of effort required, which they refer to as 'faf,' but they believe it's worth the freedom they experience.
09:00 - 10:00: Role of Bitcoin in the Financial System The chapter discusses the volatile nature of self-employment, comparing it to a roller coaster ride with highs and lows. It emphasizes the importance of enjoying the high moments despite the challenges.
10:00 - 10:30: Petition for Bitcoin Reserve The chapter titled 'Petition for Bitcoin Reserve' explores the entrepreneurial mindset of constantly striving for the next goal. It emphasizes the importance of acknowledging and celebrating progress, rather than always focusing on future achievements. The speaker reflects on the common tendency to anticipate a decline after reaching a peak, underscoring the need to appreciate how far one has come. This mindset applies not only to financial success but also to personal and professional milestones.
10:30 - 11:30: Challenges with the Petition Process The chapter titled 'Challenges with the Petition Process' discusses the importance of acknowledging personal achievements and the ease of taking them for granted. The speaker reflects on their Twitter handle transition during COVID-19, from 'The Secret Investor' to '@thesecretinvest'. They initially used the platform to seek investment advice, highlighting a backdrop of self-awareness and pursuit of knowledge amidst global disruption.
11:30 - 12:30: Bitcoin on Balance Sheets The chapter titled 'Bitcoin on Balance Sheets' discusses the concept of utilizing social media platforms for financial and investment discussions, specifically focusing on Bitcoin. It highlights how social media has become a space where genuine conversations happen, with people sharing knowledge and advice about topics like tax implications related to Bitcoin. The speaker, who has rebranded as the 'Bitcoin and crypto accountant,' explains how they carved out a niche by providing tax advice on Bitcoin through social platforms, eventually building a community and personal brand in the process.
12:30 - 14:30: E-Money Accounts for Bitcoin Transactions Introduction of the secret investor's online identity and promise to share contact details for following updates.
14:30 - 16:30: Tax Treatment for Individuals vs. Businesses The chapter 'Tax Treatment for Individuals vs. Businesses' begins with a personal anecdote from the narrator who started their journey with a curiosity about digital advancements. The narrator explored digital currencies and crypto, experiencing the highs and lows of investment. Through their journey, they realized the importance of understanding the value behind investments and admitted a lack of comprehension in their initial endeavors. This sets the stage for exploring more structured financial concepts, particularly the distinctions in tax treatments for individuals and businesses.
16:30 - 18:30: Record-keeping and Taxable Events This chapter discusses the author's experience attending a Bitcoin conference in Miami in 2022. At the conference, Michael Sailor's discussion about Bitcoin resonated with the author due to his clear communication tailored for business professionals and accountants. Inspired by the talk, the author then met Safe Dean, purchased 'The Bitcoin Standard,' and got it signed. Reading this book marked a turning point for the author, strengthening their interest and commitment to Bitcoin.
18:30 - 20:00: Case of a Scottish Resident in China The chapter titled 'Case of a Scottish Resident in China' begins with a discussion about the importance of communicating financial concepts, including Bitcoin, in plain language. The speaker expresses a passion for ensuring that people understand financial topics by using simple terms. The speaker also notes that they avoid aggressively promoting Bitcoin to people who might be resistant to it, suggesting a more conversational and educational approach similar to a video by a person named Joe.
20:00 - 22:30: Gifting Bitcoin to Family The narrator describes their personal journey of becoming more educated about the financial system, specifically criticizing the fiat system. They explain their initial lack of knowledge about the origins of money, despite being financially and tax literate. As they delved deeper into understanding money, they became increasingly critical of the fiat system, likening the exploration of its flaws to a 'neverending rabbit hole.'
22:30 - 25:30: Trends of Leaving the UK for Better Tax Situations This chapter explores the increasing trend of individuals leaving the United Kingdom in search of better tax situations. A key point discussed is the importance of simplicity and clarity in understanding complex subjects, highlighted by a quote from Leonardo da Vinci: 'Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.' This quote underscores the value of being able to present complex information in a way that is easily understood, indicating a deep understanding of the subject.
25:30 - 27:30: Rewriting Bitcoin Tax Rules The chapter titled 'Rewriting Bitcoin Tax Rules' discusses experiences and insights shared from a 2022 event in Miami, where various speakers addressed the impact of Bitcoin and related financial strategies. Among them, a key highlight was a speaker named Sailor, who shared his journey with MicroStrategy. He emphasized the search for an asset capable of outpacing inflation, eventually finding Bitcoin to be a more viable hedge compared to traditional property investments, which typically do not surpass inflation rates, rumored to be between 10-15%. The discussion reflects on the challenges and revelations faced by individuals trying to understand and navigate the evolving financial landscape surrounding digital assets like Bitcoin.

Why the UK Is Losing the Bitcoin Race Transcription

00:00 - 00:30 so as nations start adopting you know you're going to see nations buying and I I I am worried that the UK could get left behind Um and that affects us all It affects my kids It affects my potential grandkids one day So I wanted I wanted to sort of bring that conversation up So I raised a petition about um establishing a Bitcoin reserve Um obviously I'm a Bitcoiner I work in crypto and do crypto tax but I'm a Bitcoiner so I want I I think Bitcoin is the one that needs to be established Absolutely no doubt beyond that
00:30 - 01:00 Robin thank you very much for joining me How you doing yeah good Jordan thanks for having me on Yeah it's good It's uh I only met you in person for the first time Uh was it it must have been like three weeks ago now Three weeks ago I think Yeah for institutions event Yeah it's uh it's always good when you when you talk to someone online for so long and then you actually put a face to the account Do you know what it's really
01:00 - 01:30 funny as well cuz when I introduced myself to you I probably we when we spoke I was probably you know on Twitter and you know no one knows who you are and then I'm like I'm Robin by the way Oh you might know me as this It's like you know I don't know if people know my name or know you know it's so weird but it feels like you've known people for ages but never met them Yeah When people come up to me and say "Yeah I'm I'm this." I'm like "Can you show me your profile picture?" Exactly Yeah And
01:30 - 02:00 that's Yeah I mean even I met like Joe Brian and I've spoken to Joe for months and he was like "Robin." And he was like "You're not wearing your glasses I didn't recognize you." That sort of thing you know it it is so funny Um well yeah it's great to have you on Um and let's just kick it off with Yeah starting Yeah What's your your journey because you're an accountant Um so how long have you how long have you been doing that yeah So I'm I've been an accountant about 20 years Um about six years ago probably
02:00 - 02:30 just precoid sort of times I started my my own business whilst I was working Um COVID changed that a little bit in a good way Um business got got much bigger and outgrew my 9 to5 and I left that Um but I've been in finance and and accounting for yeah best part of 20 years now Um I sort of started off um just working for small businesses went into big businesses worked at footsie companies and things like that Uh and
02:30 - 03:00 then came back out um to work for myself and yeah I wouldn't go back what what drove you to work for yourself um just because I had on the last episode I had Alan Smith on and we talked a lot about this like the risks you take to then start something yourself I'm really lucky cuz I get to speak to people all the time and and I think there are different types of people Some people have to be in that 9-to-F5 mentality They have to know what
03:00 - 03:30 they're getting in their pay at the end of the month they don't want to get involved in tax and things like that Uh other people are very entrepreneurial by by design and just want that freedom Um so I always had that inkling in the back that I wanted to run a business Um I didn't know necessarily where that was going to be Um whether it was going to be accountancy or something else And then like I say I started doing bits for family and friends and it just grew from there And I think as an accountant a lot
03:30 - 04:00 of uh I'm not speaking for everyone I don't want to generalize but a lot of accountants speak in very technical speak and don't make it easy for clients to understand And I think luckily I'm okay at that which meant that my business took off and it was a natural progression from there Um you know I left my my job acrimoniously They said they didn't know I had a limited company and they weren't happy with that but it was the best thing that ever happened to me Um so for me it's something I could never go back to now But yeah it is a real interesting one And like I say
04:00 - 04:30 being in the position I am and speaking to lots of people um I can see that for some people I I had a guy recently and he did it last year and he just didn't like it He just went I can't be self-employed I just need to be employed It it's just you know different people different things But like I say I love it I love the freedom I can't put my finger on what that freedom is but I love that freedom Yeah it's for some people it's worth because there is a lot of faf involved in it is what I'll say But it's worth it
04:30 - 05:00 for some people It's a roller coaster right being self-employed is a huge roller coaster Like you'll have days where you feel the greatest ever and you've done a deal and it's like "Yeah this is going to be gamechanging." And then days where maybe someone leaves or something like that and you think "Oh this is the end." Um it's such a roller coaster but I do love it Yeah And you have to what I've learned is you have to enjoy those moments when you're at the top of the roller coaster because I
05:00 - 05:30 sometimes get into the headsp space of when I'm at the top I'm like I'm going to crash tomorrow And uh you have to pat yourself on the back as well because you have to sort of realize how far you've come because it's always I think it's an entrepreureneurial thing you're always thinking what's the next step not I've achieved what I was aiming for You're always thinking oh I need to achieve more Um and not not it doesn't have to just be money It might be you know certain things that you do but you also have to look at that progress and not
05:30 - 06:00 think I need to be up here all the time It's easy to not appreciate where you've got to And I find that a lot Yeah 100% Um and when did you cuz on Twitter you are you go by is it the I my my handle is at the secret invest which was the secret investor That's how I started right Um the story behind that is during COVID times I actually just wanted to go on there and get investment bits You
06:00 - 06:30 know you can search tickers you know you could search Bitcoin for example and you just get what people are saying Um and that was what it was That's all it was And I found a side of it that I didn't realize on social media was going to be possible which is genuine people talking about genuine things trying to help each other And from there I had my bit of a niche in the tax side of things where I could you know just post the odd bit of tax advice And it just grew from there So I'm now called the Bitcoin and crypto accountant That was a recent rebrand
06:30 - 07:00 that I did Um but my handle is still the secret investor just to not confuse anyone Yeah Um I'll link to everything in the description so they can follow you because it's a very good follow Um just to keep on top of all of all of the tax stuff Um and just generally another voice in the UK as well Um what so let's talk about your journey into Bitcoin At what point did you did you come across
07:00 - 07:30 it so I started out very much I was very um a blank canvas I came into it going right what's what's digital what everything's going digital what's going to be the next thing that goes digital currency naturally came to that um I went into you know crypto went on my memecoin journey as everyone sort of does um and realized that this wasn't the answer I made a bit of money lost a bit of money but realized that actually what I was investing in had no functional value and I didn't really understand what I was doing um and I
07:30 - 08:00 went to the Bitcoin conference in Miami in 2022 too uh and watch Michael Sailor speak and the way the way Sailor speaks he speaks to me as a business person and and in accounting sort of lingo that's very plain to see and I sort of went actually what he's saying about Bitcoin made a lot of sense Um later on the same day I met Safe Dean and bought the Bitcoin standard and got it signed and you know started reading that and I'd say from there I've never looked back
08:00 - 08:30 Yeah I mean they're great people to be in front of at the start I I mean I'm really passionate about the fact that within not just Bitcoin but in finance in general just talking in plain language so people can understand what they don't understand is really key I mean I don't orange pill people cuz most mainstream people are very object to to the idea of Bitcoin But at the same time if you speak to people in plain language very much like uh Joe's video did with
08:30 - 09:00 what's the problem they sort of think well actually that's right And that's sort of the journey I went on personally I was like I'm not you know finance I'm finance literate I'm tax literate but moneywise and origins of money I'm not I wasn't very literate on and we're not taught it And I sort of went through that journey and went actually yeah that the fear system doesn't make sense Um and obviously you know the more you go down that rabbit hole the worse it gets Yeah it is a neverending rabbit hole And
09:00 - 09:30 it reminds me of a quote I've quoted it a lot on the podcast but it's simplicity is the ultimate sophistication Um and so that's by Da Vinci The quotes from Da Vinci and I love that because it is if you can distill something into uh language that someone else can understand then it just shows such a depth of learning that you've gone through to be able to communicate that
09:30 - 10:00 100% And that's what I mean I'll be honest in in 2022 when I was in Miami I sort of sat there and listened to some of the speakers and my my mind was blowing I was I don't understand this I don't understand what's going on And that's why Sailor just spoke and he he said about his journey with Micro Strategy and he went I was just looking for an asset that could beat inflation and property might lose less but it doesn't beat it You know he sort of said look real inflation is 10 to 15% Property is not going to beat that Um
10:00 - 10:30 all other assets bonds etc are going to be much below that So he was looking for something that beats inflation and he was like you know he he started looking at Bitcoin and understanding the fundamentals And that was that was where that clicked with me as a business owner I was like "Yeah that's a great point because you know we all in a sense we're all taught to save but what's the point in saving if your spending power is just reducing you're not saving you're losing." 100% And I talked about this the other day Um because I was brought up on you
10:30 - 11:00 go to you go to school go to uni and then you start a family buy a house the the usual uh life lifestyle lifespan Um and I just think it's it's totally changed Like maybe that worked for generations before because real estate probably was one of the best stores of value that you could have but now in a
11:00 - 11:30 digital era like now the the game is totally changed and I can imagine that was like the penny drop moment um with by sailors saying that um how and agree Yeah I mean the the the biggest the biggest thing I'm still going through this journey at the moment One of the biggest ones that I'm looking at now is sort of counterparty risk The jour journeys I've been on with banks and exchanges and all of these things and and I sit there and go for me self-s sovereignty is the only way that you can
11:30 - 12:00 be in control of where you are Um it's just such a it's a hard lesson to learn Um but you know you realize that actually you know money in a bank's not my money It's a bank's money They they give it me when they choose and they can stop me taking it if I want to And that that was a real hard lesson to learn because you can't fathom that because you grow up so differently But again one of the pieces not just from podcasts like this but also I've tried approaching universities and things like that I just want people to have that
12:00 - 12:30 open access to the information that I've had And if I can say to people read broken money or or read the Bitcoin standard or read the fiat standard Just those books that teach you a little thing and they go away and do it they can make their own mind up You know what what's the problem again you know go watch this video Just those little things that teach you how the system works in very plain language and then you can make your own mind up Yeah It's not about pushing and I spoke to Allan about this again on the previous podcast is it's not about pushing Bitcoin down
12:30 - 13:00 people's throats because that doesn't work I think a lot of people listening as well will have tried this and cuz when you come into Bitcoin you get really excited and there's that period of oh I need to tell everyone and anyone their dogs their grams everybody Um and then you soon realize that like you're actually alienating yourself a little bit And yeah I think you're totally
13:00 - 13:30 right Like showing people what the problem is in the easiest way And you mentioned what's the problem uh the video which I will link below as well But I use that I want to say I I don't know on the daily but definitely every week at some point I'm dropping that in to a conversation I'm having um commenting on something and it's it's good to have those resources just at your disposal
13:30 - 14:00 now 100% I mean what one of the things I learned very early on because I I speak at traditional finance events and if you go onto a stage and say you've got 30 40 entrepreneurs in front of you and you're saying to them what you understand about money is wrong they'll laugh you out of a room because you're telling them they don't understand something they've done for 30 years What you need to you just need to show them what the problem is and then they might come to their own conclusion but that's the way their brains will have to do it They won't listen to me telling them they're wrong
14:00 - 14:30 they'll have to go and find it out themselves and that that's absolutely fine but it is it is a hard thing to do and that's why what's the problem is such a good video because it's done in that sort of way So uh are these traditional finance events are you are you challenging anything or like broaching any subject around the problem or are you just like going under the radar what's the best approach with with
14:30 - 15:00 that sort of thing i think I think I let people go away and what I'll very much offer them is the opportunity to have a discussion again at a later date about it because people will always have challenges right so one of the biggest challenges that I see coming back from those sort of events So people will go well Bitcoin people call it digital gold but it's not digital gold I'd rather have gold which I understand But for me gold has two challenges which is one of the journeys I've come to very recently which is the counterparty risk or if you're going to self-custody it that's a massive risk because you've got gold at
15:00 - 15:30 your house right so that's a wrench attack waiting to happen So you know these sorts of things create challenges that Bitcoin answers but Bitcoin answers that in a modern society a digital society that we're in And then once you go into the transactions where you can send it across the world in seconds and for minimal fees that only adds to that So I I think a lot of people will have their mindset of gold is the answer or you know these other commodities But I
15:30 - 16:00 will generally say to people go away and do your own research I mean one of the things that always sticks in my mind and I'm sure you've heard this is no you'll never find a someone that's done a 100 hours research on Bitcoin that thinks Bitcoin will fail Um and and that's one of the keys for me They have to go away and do their their research You're not going to find out yeah what's the problem we'll help you understand the problem but then you need to go and find your own answer Then come speak to me when you think you've got the answer and then we can discuss it and have an open debate I don't ever sit there and think I'm the most knowledgeable Bitcoiner in
16:00 - 16:30 a room because I'm not Um and I love that though I love learning from everyone in the space and you know speaking to them and understanding more about their their drivers and you know what they think I'm not going to get into this debate now but I love the medium of exchange store of value debate It's one of my favorite subjects just because it gets people out of their shell talking going "This is what I think you're wrong." Great I love it because it teaches me something every time What does I was going to ask this later
16:30 - 17:00 but now you've just brought it up What would you prefer so at the moment Bitcoin is taxed as an asset Correct Um but if we move more towards a medium exchange what happens then the the difficulty with that is and in honesty we're so far from that that it would be such a fundamental change that I don't know is is the direct answer Um
17:00 - 17:30 HMRC are not going to get rid of this revenue that they can see overnight Um I think the the challenge for me and and you know the people I work with Bitcoin Policy UK I keep quite close to but then I'm part of Crypto UK we speak to HMRC quite often Part of the biggest point on my agenda at the moment would be for them to separate Bitcoin from crypto That's the biggest challenge I see at the minute Then we can start thinking about if it goes into a medium of exchange and becomes a currency I I read
17:30 - 18:00 I read uh no I heard someone on a video the other day and I'm taking credit here but I can't remember who it was but what they said was Bitcoin as as a currency governments will fight it right because what you're doing is you're waging a war against their own currency like for the British government don't want the pound to fail the pound is theirs they control it they won't let Bitcoin overtake the pound without a big fight if Bitcoin works as a commodity they'll leave it alone because they can tax it because it works They don't have to control it as a
18:00 - 18:30 commodity but it becomes outside It's not waring against anything that they need it to so to speak or fighting So for me at this moment a commodity works best for Bitcoin as a whole Um and I don't mean that because I know what the the white paper says and I understand that you you know I've seen uh I can't remember his name's gone out of my head Jeff Jeff Booth talking recently He said if Bitcoin fails as a medium of exchange it fails I understand all of that and I
18:30 - 19:00 do I do buy into that But I think the short term the commodity side of it just means it's left alone Um but the tax side of it becomes more important if it gets separated away because then I think we can talk about you know things like what Germany do where if you hold it for 12 months or more you get tax breaks and it becomes easier to do because at the moment all of it being grouped into crypto assets doesn't work Yeah And that's what I was going to bring that up as well Um it was Jack Dorsey
19:00 - 19:30 that said the um if it doesn't become a medium of exchange it fails Um and that that was a brilliant podcast actually It was like it was a really good podcast and I don't know why I must have watched the video of Jeff Boo that happened Yeah I don't blame you Like both amazing to listen to Um can you go into the cuz this gets brought up quite a lot the difference just quickly the difference like how Germany tax it compared to how we tax it
19:30 - 20:00 in the UK So not an expert on German taxes but my understanding is that in Germany if you hold for over a 12-month period you get uh you get reduced tax or no tax on on holding Bitcoin The the the UK doesn't tax it that way As I say your UK taxes are all in the crypto assets category which means it all gets taxed on the gains you make at the time that you taxably dispose of it Um taxable disposal is when you uh gift trade um
20:00 - 20:30 sell swap whatever Um any change of beneficial ownership is a taxable disposal Yeah And um so you'd because I submitted a petition uh to the UK government around uh establishing a strategic Bitcoin reserve and you had submitted one late last year as well Oh right Wow Okay Can you talk through like why are you on
20:30 - 21:00 number four what's happened to the first three so I I really and this is something I only want the debate I want the conversation and that that's the key for me It's not I believe in and I won't go into this but I believe in Westminster there's some form of code of silence I I I think the reason they're not talking about it is a conscious reason not just ignorance Um so I I wanted with what Trump was doing regardless of what I think of Trump what he was doing is establishing Bitcoin as
21:00 - 21:30 an asset class that needs to be recognized And then we've got game theory that comes into play So as nations start adopting you know you're going to see nations buying and I I am worried that the UK could get left behind Um and that affects us all It affects my kids It affects my potential grandkids one day So I wanted I wanted to sort of bring that conversation up So I raised a petition about um establishing a Bitcoin reserve Um obviously I'm a Bitcoiner I work in crypto and do crypto tax but I'm a
21:30 - 22:00 Bitcoiner So I want I I think Bitcoin is the one that needs to be established Absolutely no doubt beyond that Um so I started off there Um I went through back and forth with the petitions group who you know whoever they are They basically said that Bitcoin is an institution or a company or a person and therefore they cannot accept it which makes no logical sense um as we all know but they wouldn't take that So their recommendation was to come back with um
22:00 - 22:30 a more broad digital assets one So I went back and tried a second one but I worded it not probably not carefully enough um that it was digital assets mainly Bitcoin or something like that Again they rejected it because I mentioned Bitcoin by Nate On the third one I went for digital assets only Um and I used I'm going to be honest I used AI to try and get around it but I used example Bitcoin So it was very generic Um again they rejected it because of the me mention of Bitcoin My fourth one I
22:30 - 23:00 went even looser on the language and said many different you know crypto assets and and variables That was the 13th of January I've still not had a decision Um so I'm I'm chasing them but they tell me that they're six to eight weeks behind Once they're eight weeks past I chase them again They've not given me an answer So they're being very cy Um and I don't really understand why which is why I think in the background something more's going on That's so
23:00 - 23:30 interesting cuz so mine got rejected as well um maybe a week or two ago and I'd put exactly the same wording as um the US So I'd put establish a Bitcoin strategic reserve and a digital asset stockpile and they came back saying "You can't do this because we can't have any institutions organizations or businesses." The same it's probably
23:30 - 24:00 exactly the same email that I got Um but I I thought it was because I tagged on digital assets because a lot of them do come under that category of being a a business or an organization um outside of the UK Um it's really confusing isn't it and that's but to hear that you've put in a Bitcoin only reserve and get the same answer back that's yeah that's shocking So I I
24:00 - 24:30 started the other way to you I started at Bitcoin only and then progress to digital assets and crypto assets because that's what they basically instructed me to do Um but I find it really odd they can see what I've done and they can see that I'm on the fourth one and they can see that I've gone through the process that they're asking me to which is why I think this last one is so delayed Um I I don't know what they're doing in the background but it just feels really strange to me that they're doing it this way Um especially as you say I mean one
24:30 - 25:00 of the issues is when you go into the digital assets as a whole you're including potentially really risky investments in there So surely that makes it worse Doesn't make sense Um right before we both get really annoyed let's move on Um so we're seeing like a massive trend with Bitcoin at the moment globally with it being held on uh
25:00 - 25:30 balance sheets around the world whether that's corporate whether that's just a small soul trader or limited company in the UK Um are you are you seeing a big trend as well there's definitely an increase Uh mainly I'm seeing a lot more in small businesses I think the issue in larger businesses at the moment is I I don't think they know where to go Um when we were at that institutions event I think the the word the words chief Bitcoin officer were were mentioned a
25:30 - 26:00 lot and I don't think they're ready for that yet Um I think the difficulty is finding the information and the people they can trust to generate this to their board So um one of the conversations I've had and I think I can openly speak about it is is being talked about at Chico which is a school um Lach Leamond um who are going to be accepting Bitcoin and they're they're creating a treasury strategy Um I'm seeing more and more of that more more of the questions about how it's implemented and how they do it
26:00 - 26:30 Um a lot of that as you you probably know with a company it takes a year cycle to get to the end of year anyway where they report it So some of those are still in the early stages but with the sort of banking challenges and things like that I'm getting asked that a lot which is why you know I'm again I don't get anything for promoting them but Coin Corner and their e-oney account has become such a godsend to me as well as other businesses Can you cuz I see that with cuz Strike have something similar as well Um and I
26:30 - 27:00 know Coin Corner's e-money account Can you just quickly explain to everyone like why that is such a big thing cuz it's been a big thing for me as well Um but why not getting it directly from an exchange account so I've done a lot of research on this and spoken to a lot of banks personally So I've spoken to account managers Obviously being an accountant banks speak to me and it's quite an interesting conversation banks won't touch crypto or Bitcoin a lot
27:00 - 27:30 because of the the current I don't know if you've seen the scam rules have changed as well So banks are becoming liable for a lot of scams Now what the issue with that is is banks are seeing a lot of money leave every month tens of millions of pounds because they're having to repay people for scams that they're going through A lot a lot of that will be in crypto So what that means is banks overall are taking a blanket approach that they already were to not not allowing crypto transactions to to take their risk away So I understand it but it's a growing
27:30 - 28:00 industry and it doesn't make sense So that that has posed problems where when you send to an exchange usually via bank transfer or card payments or anything uh banks will just block it They'll say nope we're going to protect you from that potential scam and we're going to block it Um it it limits your opportunities especially when you're a business because with businesses one of one of the challenges is getting an exchange in the first place can be hard Um I remember when I first set mine up I went through Binance They asked for things that a small business wouldn't
28:00 - 28:30 wouldn't have You know we need a total document of your share flipper Well it's just me Here's a box with my name on And they they were just like "No we need more detail." But there is no more detail you know So I went back and forth and months with Binance I then tried Coinbase who just didn't reply to me Uh I ended up getting a crack on one Um but again the problem with that was they wouldn't you know my bank won't touch that and I ended up I was doing things like sending from one bank to another bank that would allow it then putting it
28:30 - 29:00 in and then moving it to cold storage and it was all just a nightmare Uh and then I came across Coin Corner and Coin Corner's e-oney account and as you say there are other options I think I think Revolute has one as well I've not used it but I think they do Um the great thing about it is you have your own account and sort code So when you send it all the bank sees is that sort code that account number and it's your business name It's not a third party It's just you transferring to another business bank account in your name which means they don't pick it up They don't even look at it It's not a scam warning
29:00 - 29:30 They don't stop you They I think they can't stop you So you can just send money there and it it just goes straight away and it appears in Coin Corner within minutes if you use a DCA reference it will buy Bitcoin automatically for you So I mean I've got a daily DCA that goes on for my business at the moment Um and it's just brilliant I don't have to touch anything and it just goes in there and then I sweep it out to cold storage or multisig whichever I want to use So it it it's something that makes it so easy And again this is where the information that
29:30 - 30:00 to bigger businesses comes from because they wouldn't even know that uh and how do you go on that journey you know to the the one thing about Bitcoin that's the one of the barriers to entry is the technical aspect of it people are scared of so true and although the friction is getting less and less over time like I still remember 2017 um it was for my brother's business is
30:00 - 30:30 trying to set up a Binance account to then buy it and we actually got to the point where we just gave up I I gave up as well It was so painful But now like the options although in the UK we don't have as many options as elsewhere Um the options and the on boarding has got so much better Um but as you said it it is
30:30 - 31:00 just knowing where to look and knowing the playbook essentially for correct these small companies is the playbook that the essential bit because like I say I used to operate a playbook that worked but it was four or five transactions to get it to work Don't get me wrong after a while it became easy You get used to it but it's a lot to say to someone well you might need to set up a bank with XY Z bank and then transfer it there and then transfer it to your exchange and then then buy the Bitcoin And also it waters it all down You know
31:00 - 31:30 once you've got a,000 and you've done everything you end up with 960 quid or whatever which isn't significant in the long term but the short term if you're losing 40 quid on a,000 transaction it's a decent amount And you're thinking is it worth it you know is that what I want to do etc etc Yeah Um so I've had quite a few questions because I put out on uh Twitter questions for you and there's a lot people want to know a lot So I'm
31:30 - 32:00 going to fire through a couple of them cuz a couple of them were questions I was going to ask anyway Um so it's actually quite nice So say someone is an individual but they also run uh their own business as well What is the what's the difference between tax treatment um between an individual and a business okay So
32:00 - 32:30 there's a lot of when I go into this I'm always going to caveat it It's all down to individual circumstances of what people want to do Um but from a high level point of view you pay at a higher rate you pay 24% on your capital gain that you make where from the profit on the bitcoin um that you buy Uh in a company you pay corporation tax on the profit which can be depending on the profit amount goes 19 and then ratchets up to about 24% Um I usually use an average for conversations of 20% Um so
32:30 - 33:00 the the tax rate's a bit different but the key with a company is you're kicking the can down the road because yes you pay 20% corporation tax on the profit but then it's the company's money Then to draw it out of the company you pay further taxes usually dividend taxes Dividend taxes at higher rate when you go over 50 grand are 33.25% So it's a big number when you combine that with the corporation tax So most business owners limited business
33:00 - 33:30 owners at a smaller scale generally keep their earnings under 50k So a combination of salary and dividends at around 50k But what you've then got if you've got a big profit from Bitcoin let let's just say you know 10 years time Bitcoin's a million million pounds and you bought one for 20,000 You got a 980,000 uh profit You're going to pay tax on that at 20% You know probably a bit more but 20% brings it down to 800K you've then got 800k tied in your company that you've got to find a way to get out and
33:30 - 34:00 and there's going to be tax to pay if you draw it all out in one go Whereas if we use the example for personal that 980,000 gain is just taxed at 24% The rest is yours So usually if you can I would suggest keeping it personally However for business treasury needs things like that money you're not going to draw out anyway or if there is a longerterm tax plan in place you may be able to use a company vehicle Uh things like inheritance tax planning all of
34:00 - 34:30 those things can be important But that's why you know so broad that I could give you know 10 people advice and give them all different strategies Yeah that was a really good like just simple way of doing it as well And as you said like people everyone will be different when it comes to this Like that's super important Um okay The next one is what records So if you're holding if you're buying Bitcoin in a business um what
34:30 - 35:00 records do you need to show your accountant and what are taxable events so any uh change of beneficial ownership is a taxable event That's the simplest way to put it to any change of beneficial ownership Uh and that is a disposal as at the day and the GBP equivalent on that day of the Bitcoin HMRC for tax purposes they don't care about the amount of Bitcoin They care about the GBP value of what you're doing So that that's key Um so that's the taxable event side of it Um you pay tax
35:00 - 35:30 on the profit that you've made at that point Uh sorry what was the start bit of the question Jordan um what records do they need to show their accountant good question Okay so the reason I'm going to answer this this way is because I don't know if the person asking the question is a true Bitcoiner and they're thinking do I need to disclose my stack that's a good question and it's one as an accountant I'm extremely sensitive to and you should get an accountant who is sensitive to it They may need to know certain things Uh for example the end of
35:30 - 36:00 the year you would need to revalue your Bitcoin You don't pay tax on the profit but you need to revalue it Which means anyone with half a brain if they say to you "How much was your Bitcoin worth on the 31st of March?" they can work out how much you've got So you need to be able to trust that person implicitly and understand that they will need to know that Um that's the recordeping side Try and make it as simple as possible I always say this to people the more wallets and things you use the more complex your tax situation will come you
36:00 - 36:30 I I appreciate that people set things up quickly and you know they do things to get it to work but also bear in mind the complexity of the bookkeeping side of things because it's the biggest one of the biggest challenges Data is one of the biggest challenges I see daily So the easier you can make it for yourself the less it will cost you when your accountant has to analyze it and the easier it will be So I I personally use um a piece of software called Coinly Um Coinly is tax software um pretty good you just link a wallet or an exchange to
36:30 - 37:00 it it will pull through the data That should be sufficed for an accountant If you keep on top of Coin and make sure the data is complete an account a crypto account or a Bitcoin aware account should be able to decipher that pretty easily Um if not you probably need to draft someone else in Um for a Bitcoin treasury company that shouldn't be too complex for a general accountant being completely honest Um but if you've been accepting payments or going to more complexities you probably need someone that's pretty crypto and Bitcoin native That's not just me trying to sell my
37:00 - 37:30 service That's just a piece of advice because it will be cheaper and will be right And the amount that I see that is wrong is just beyond belief And and people miss the fact that they sign it off Their accountant's not liable They've signed their name at the bottom to say it's correct I appreciate your accountants probably advised you but you've signed it off which means it's your responsibility to make sure it's correct So get in the right advice um for those records But yeah in terms of the actual records themselves should be pretty simple with a get some software
37:30 - 38:00 to help you because it just keeps it in the background for you Solid Um next one is this one's a bit trickier so you can answer this how you like Um I'm based in China originally from Scotland Holding uh Bitcoin have Oh this isn't it's not in a sentence Holding Bitcoin having been involved in mining out here how can I get back to Scotland
38:00 - 38:30 and use it to buy a house and retire in the most efficient manner possible so first and foremost I'm going to caveat that with they need some Chinese tax advice Yeah Um so it tax residency is a really complex one So people get mixed up with residency and tax residency Tax residency is a separate thing Tax residency in the UK I can talk about the UK quite openly So the UK generally if you're in the UK for more than 6 months you are automatically a UK tax resident regardless of where you're a resident
38:30 - 39:00 living or what otherwise So this person is likely going to be in China and therefore be a Chinese tax resident I can't categorically say they're not a UK tax resident because I don't know their how much time they spent in the UK etc So that's a real caveat Um if they want to come back they have multiple choices Now if they come back and don't dispose of any of their Bitcoin or sell it or or anything else then that Bitcoin just comes back to the UK And when they sell it and realize again it's taxable in the UK regardless of whether they held it
39:00 - 39:30 while they were in China or bought it while they were in China what matters is when they dispose of it and the gain they make Um from a Chinese perspective there may be tax there If they leave China and then dispose it in the UK most countries will say well actually if unless you're gone for a period of time potentially you owe tax in that country As I say potentially is a strong is a word I'm using there very openly because I can't categorically say yes or no Um so if if I was in that position I would
39:30 - 40:00 consider the cleanest way to dispose it all realize any gains losses and income from mining while I'm in China pay the relevant tax there then when I move to the back to the UK start a fresh and and clean the slate Tax efficiency I can't answer whether that's the best way and whether it's the most tax efficient I don't know the Chinese tax rates off the top of my head but that's the way I do it for simplicity You don't know the Chinese tax rates off the top of your head shock it No Powerful Helpful Um okay The next one is one actually
40:00 - 40:30 that I get asked a lot and I do not know the answer to Um and this is my question This wasn't from anyone else but so I've got a niece who's two Yep I just turned two I've been buying her Bitcoin um on the day she was born and then her last two birthdays And I've just been buying it myself Yep And then just taking a note of what it how much I bought on that
40:30 - 41:00 day At some point I'm going to have to gift this to her Um what is the most efficient way of doing it cuz I can't just set her up Would I be setting her up a wallet instead is that the better way to do it i would say setting up the wallet is the better way of doing it First of all that the gift happens when you give it to her right so if you say it's her wallet as long as you you always have to
41:00 - 41:30 be careful in Bitcoin and crypto that you don't use that wallet in future by mistake or otherwise you know that that wallet then is set aside for her The transactions that go in are hers And then the only person that will interact with it and off-ramp it would be her in the future into her own KYC account So you can then therefore whether the whether the wallet is KYC or not doesn't really matter Uh you're saying she's the beneficial owner So then every time you deposit into that wallet uh that's hers So you know if it was I'm not saying you've done it this way by the way we haven't had this discussion but if it
41:30 - 42:00 was a treasure or a ledger or whatever that's her treasure right and one day you're going to give her the keys to that but ultimately she is the beneficial owner from day one of that treasure If you wanted to cross your your tees and dot your eyes you could create a deed of trust which says this wallet address on this day and I'd use AI for this You don't need a lawyer but get AI to say "Here's a deed of trust or a deed of assignment to say that this wallet address from this date belong to this person You sign it as as Jordan."
42:00 - 42:30 She obviously won't sign it cuz she's two But she's got that then in the future to back up that all of those purchases from you were gifts The other side of that is god forbid anything happens Jordan but inheritance tax points of views as well inheritance tax kicks in on gifts if you die within seven years of giving those gifts So you know obviously hopefully you've got a long life ahead of you So it's not a concern for you at the moment So that that's that's good because she's not got any inheritance tax to worry about from
42:30 - 43:00 your side in the future So that that's also important And by by setting that up from day one you can say it's not my Bitcoin so it's hers from that day The other thing your your own tax as well you know if you if you if you're simply buying and sending to her you're not going to have any gains or losses to realize at that point because you've given it to her at the moment you've bought it So that that's also pretty key because if you buy it and then give it to her seven years later you might have some tax to pay yourself on money that's not in your head yours So the it goes
43:00 - 43:30 back to the point earlier on bookkeeping The easier you can make that bookkeeping the more you can prove it if you're ever asked Yeah that's that's how I thought would probably be the best way It's not how I'm currently doing it Um but it will be after this call but I just get this question so much Um and it is cuz with Bitcoin you lower your time preference So then you're thinking about children you're thinking about the future and it's there's no easy solution at the
43:30 - 44:00 moment of like having cuz it's quite complex for me to then uh say I get a treasured ledger whatever it is um to then I have to have the seed phrase to that and there's no simple solution at the moment that I can see there isn't Um but it comes down to that's why I say the document as an extra because what you're
44:00 - 44:30 saying is although you're in control of the wallet you are in control of it she is the beneficial owner So regardless of who has those keys the the idea is that she is the beneficial owner and you've documented that But it it is it is one of those ones that the other thing is this is still such a new asset right and things are changing every day The thing is with new assets there's very little case law and very little HMRC guidance to say these things So for me it's about using best judgment to prove what you're
44:30 - 45:00 doing and say I'm not trying to avoid any tax I'm just creating a a balance for my niece that is for her in the future You know you you it's the same concept as a trust fund You put into a trust fund but it's in her name But actually this you you've wanted to choose a different asset to utilize So therefore you just got to create that paperwork that backs it up a little bit But as long as from a case law perspective the thing I always say is as long as you can prove that the only thing going in there is deposits from you gifts then you know as long as
45:00 - 45:30 there's no other interaction of sending money back etc They they can't really argue the beneficial ownership point of view because no one else has benefited from the ownership of that Whereas if you put say you had half a bitcoin in there and you went I'm just going to take 0.1 back that proves that actually you're the underlying owner of it You're the you're the underlining beneficiary Whereas you know if you're just putting into it it's nice and clean and you can show that Yeah that's Yeah great advice and I know a lot of people benefit from
45:30 - 46:00 that question Um the next and final one on this is because so I talked about this again I'm going to reference the last podcast cuz I I'm on a very like seeing a lot of people leaving the UK and it's it's annoying me Um or not annoying me but it's like sad to see Yes One question one is are you also seeing this um and question two is which is
46:00 - 46:30 from one of the listeners Where are you seeing is the best location for people moving to get a 0% tax juris jurisdiction okay So I can answer that one really easily At the moment Dubai is hot Everyone is going there And I don't mean literally hot I just mean businesses are going there Um I think their I think their corporation tax rates are pretty good I think they've gotten zero tax on crypto Uh and obviously that falls into Bitcoin in that Um I I I would caveat
46:30 - 47:00 that though it's a very new economy So what I think my research about four years ago I was dealing with a business that was trying to move to Dubai And one of my concerns with that business advisor they were quite a big business e-commerce business um that that Dubai recently changed its corporation tax rate from 5% to 10% Now that worried me because I sat there and thought well if they can do that so quickly what's going to happen in the future when as a progressive economy when they change things you know if I was going to up and
47:00 - 47:30 move to Dubai today I wouldn't want to think that in four years time they could change the tax rate to be exactly the same as the UK Not saying they're going to do that but the chance of it is concerning So it it's undoubtedly the most popular at the moment Um the other the answer to the other question is yes I'm seeing a lot of people leave but much much more am I seeing businesses leave and that's my concern because what we're doing is we're we're forcing commerce out of this country We're forcing people who would they would happily pay tax They're not but it's not
47:30 - 48:00 people sitting there going I don't want to pay any tax It's that people say they want to pay fair taxes They don't want to open a business that first of all is hindered and then second of all in the web 3 and crypto and bitcoin space A lot of people are being forced out because of FCA regulations You know to say to a business if you want to be a startup in web 3 and crypto under financial promotions you have to be uh FCA regulated FCA regulation is not an easy thing to achieve So that automatically
48:00 - 48:30 puts a business out of scope and just says not only do they not want to operate in the UK they don't want to interact with the UK because they can't without FCA regulation they can't deal with UK customers So I'm not I'm not saying I don't understand why that regulation is put in place but I'm saying that at the moment that hinders commerce in the UK Um so yeah it's forcing people out from a tax perspective It's forcing people out because they want to open businesses that they don't want to be fractured on day one Uh and then it it's forcing
48:30 - 49:00 people out from a tax perspective because things are just growing and getting worse I mean there's we're there's a lot of instability at the moment that we all know the government is not making enough money to fill the hole that they talk about The only way the government increases revenue realistically is through tax And I I'm I'm not supportive of a wealth tax I don't think it will solve the problem But that narrative is being fed by the media which means a lot of people are you know see I watched GMTV yesterday
49:00 - 49:30 and I saw some guy who communicated so well what a wealth tax would bring to this country and I thought he's told all of these millions of people literally a tiny snippet of a story to make them believe his narrative and now of all those millions of people 70 80% will agree with him and think that's the answer But it's not It won't help us It will make things worse What I mean I think I saw a stat and I'm not I'm quoting numbers here but I'm paraphrasing so some of these numbers
49:30 - 50:00 may be wrong but something like a high percentage I'm going to say a high percentage rather than say the percentage A high percentage in this country of the tax revenue comes from high net worth individuals already What you're saying is you want to bring in a wealth tax to tax them further So you're going to force them out of the country because they're not going to stay and and you know pay 80% tax on their high net worth Then what you're saying to them is well Switzerland for example the the one common thing Switzerland has a wealth tax Yes but Switzerland doesn't
50:00 - 50:30 have a lot of the other taxes we have So what you're doing is taxing on taxing on taxing So you got to understand the other nations that have these wealth taxes don't have all of the taxes we have So cumulatively they're not paying more than us They're just paying a different rate based on wealth and things like that which to bring that in would change the whole tax structure which isn't going to happen It would cost them too many millions of pounds I just don't see at the moment where the answer necessarily is I personally think it's encouraging more in the economy You
50:30 - 51:00 know from a deficit point of view I think I saw a a thing at the last budget No one's ever taxed their way out of a deficit It's not possible But that seems to be what our government is doing Um so before I go on a massive rant I just see I do see it forcing commerce and people out of the country and it really it is worrying but I worry it's only going to get worse and you're forcing people's hands Yeah I couldn't put it better myself This is something that I've been now
51:00 - 51:30 posting about um quite a lot because we are just see like it's f like entrepreneurs that I look up to it's friends who are entrepreneurs that are now leaving Um which is yeah quite quite sad to see Um and I I recently put something it was like it feels like we're living in a threestar hotel but paying a fivestar rate Um a lot of
51:30 - 52:00 people picked up on that Um the the other thing I'll add to that is within this space that's one of the fastest emerging spaces you know currently going you know gig economy overall is massive What we're basically saying is we don't want the next Google in this country because they wouldn't be in this country We'd force them out before they even started Why would they start here you know if you look at someone like you know in Bitcoin specifically you look at strategy Well I think the spaces uh I didn't go to it but I think it had bits on what how
52:00 - 52:30 would you get the next UK strategy my question would be why would you get the next UK strategy you'd open it somewhere else You'd do the same concept but you'd open it in a more friendly economic climate I would say because at this moment it's not just about where we are now It's about where we're going and the uncertainty about where we're going and about what that might mean for a business you know are they going to attack corporation tax rates which are pretty high you know not not overly high compared to other countries but they're still you know medium to high level Are
52:30 - 53:00 they going to attack those further and make us higher because they think it's an easy target well possibly They're not saying they're not going to Um I'm not saying they will cuz I don't necessarily think they will But actually I think on the extreme side I think the best thing to do for the economy could be to lower corporation tax rates and encourage more people to open businesses and actually make it more tax efficient for them to do so and therefore bring more money into the economy and bring new businesses into the economy But that
53:00 - 53:30 doesn't seem like a progressive approach that's being taken at the moment 100% Um okay The last one is just a fun question I just want to see what your answer is to this Uh so say HMRC give you the pen to rewrite the rules um around Bitcoin tax What would be the first thing or how would you approach that i think and crypto if you want to
53:30 - 54:00 throw in that as well No I so I I would I would firstly separate the two off I think that's really I think that's one of the most important things to happen So then from a Bitcoin side I'd probably go towards the the holder model where you you reward people for holding long term Um because you're not you're not necessarily losing economic benefit in the short term there Um I think I I I do personally think regulation is really important within crypto as a whole You can't overly regulate it but regulation
54:00 - 54:30 you know if you look at the stock market for example you've got all these insider trading rules and things like that Bitcoin doesn't necessarily have that at the moment So there maybe needs to be things bought in on that From a tax side I'd just put I'd put benefits for long-term holding I think that would be pretty key I think um I I personally sit there and go look we've got to make revenue in this country The government have to make revenue And whether you agree with paying tax on gains or not I'm not here to necessarily debate that point But if we can reward people for
54:30 - 55:00 the longerterm investment of it it would make more sense to me Um and specifically Bitcoin because it's the most successful thus far that that can be proved with with historical data and therefore also touchwood one of the safer ones and that you know I think it is safe I've got no doubts about that So I think the risks are minimal and therefore by separating it off you're not grouping yourself with um potentially more dangerous projects that
55:00 - 55:30 are involved So that that's probably the two things tax breaks for holders and separating the two assets Awesome Well that rounds us off That's coming up for an hour So yeah thank you so much for coming on Um this will be so help I know this episode will be so helpful for a lot of people um and especially people in the UK because we have talked a lot about it is very UK specific Um I will put all the links um
55:30 - 56:00 to you down below so if anyone wants to reach out they can find you there But yeah thank you again for for coming on No worries Anyone can reach out to me with any questions I'm here My my primary goal is education So if I can help someone I'm happy to help them um as long as they're not spending three hours on the phone to me Um and if I don't ever reply to a DM just kick me It's usually because I've read it thought I'll reply later and then forget Yeah I'm bad for that as well
56:00 - 56:30 It's awful isn't it you sit there and go "Yeah yeah I'll reply." And then you go like two weeks later I'm like "I'm so sorry." Okay awesome Thank you very much Thanks for having me Jordan