ZYGMUNT BAUMAN I "Modernidade Líquida" I Entrevista

Summary

In this thought-provoking interview with Zygmunt Bauman, the renowned sociologist discusses the persistent financial crisis and its implications for society, particularly the youth and ordinary citizens. Bauman delves deep into the concept of 'consumer society' and the culture of credit, emphasizing the shift from saving to spending beyond one's means. Additionally, he addresses the rising anxiety due to economic uncertainties and the global protests as reactions to socio-economic disparities. Bauman also explores the divorce between power and politics, the changing notions of privacy, and the commercialization of morality. The interview provides a comprehensive reflection on the critical cultural shifts and challenges facing modern society, revealing a period of 'interregnum' where old solutions no longer apply and new systems have yet to emerge.

Highlights

• Bauman highlights the ongoing nature of the financial crisis, noting anxiety among ordinary people. 😟
• The culture of credit surpasses traditional saving, leading to heavy reliance on loans and credit cards. 🏦
• Youth face an uncertain future, often unable to achieve the same standards of living as their parents. 👶
• Consumerism drives actions, evidenced by the London riots targeting retail goods. 🏬
• Myriad global protests reflect widespread dissatisfaction with current socio-economic systems. 🌍
• Bauman's 'interregnum' describes our current societal pause between past solutions and yet-to-come innovations. ⏳
• The role of social media blurs personal boundaries, fostering a need for public validation. 🎥

Key Takeaways

• The financial crisis continues to impact ordinary people, creating persistent anxiety and uncertainty. 📉
• The culture of credit has replaced traditional saving habits, linking consumerism with debt. 💳
• Global protests highlight socio-economic frustrations and a desire for systemic change. ✊
• A critical 'divorce' between power and politics is shifting how societies are governed. 🔄
• Increased online presence challenges traditional notions of privacy and personal exposure. 🌐
• Consumer morality ties personal worth to material gifts, complicating family dynamics. 🎁
• Society is in an 'interregnum,' a transitional phase lacking clear future directions. ↔️

Overview

Zygmunt Bauman's interview provides profound insights into the persistent financial crises affecting society. He unveils how these crises breed anxiety, especially among ordinary citizens, who are directly impacted. With the rise in unemployment rates and economic instability, young people now face a future where maintaining their parents' standards seems challenging. The interview captures the underlying societal transformation marked by collective apprehensions and shifts in socio-economic behaviors.

Exploring consumer culture, Bauman criticizes the transition from a 'savings culture' to one dominated by credits and loans. This shift fundamentally affects societal psyche, with individuals purchasing beyond their means hoping for future repayments. The discussion extends to global protests, portraying these movements as a significant backlash against economic disparities and a desire for inclusion within the consumer fold. Bauman's observations on London's riots illustrate the intersection of consumerism and societal unrest.

The interview delves into cultural transitions, emphasizing the 'divorce' between power and politics. Bauman elaborates on changing privacy notions brought about by an expansive online presence, highlighting the urgency for a new societal model. The commercialization of morality further complicates family relationships, translating love and responsibility into material gifts. Concluding with the idea of an 'interregnum,' Bauman urges a reconsideration of societal roles and structures in a world where guidelines of the past no longer suffice.

Chapters

• 00:00 - 01:00: Introduction & Current Financial Crisis This chapter introduces the concept of financial crises, focusing on current events affecting global economies. It sets the stage for understanding the complexities and impacts of financial instability. The chapter aims to provide an overview of how financial crises develop and their implications on both a macro and microeconomic level, providing a context for deeper discussion in subsequent chapters.
• 01:00 - 02:30: Impact on Society & Unemployment This chapter titled 'Impact on Society & Unemployment' seems to discuss the effects of certain societal and economic factors on unemployment. The brief snippet 'B for' doesn't provide much information to construct a detailed summary. However, we can infer that the chapter might explore how different elements impact societal structures and job markets, leading to varying levels of unemployment. Possible themes could include technological advancements, policy changes, economic shifts, and their roles in affecting employment rates and societal well-being.
• 02:30 - 04:00: Credit and Consumer Society This chapter discusses the following core points about Credit and Consumer Society:
• 04:00 - 05:30: Consequences of Consumer Culture The chapter delves into the emerging financial crisis and reflects on the aftermath of the previous one that occurred three years ago, emphasizing the continual impact of consumer culture on economic stability.
• 05:30 - 07:30: UK Riots as Consumerist Rebellion The chapter discusses the ongoing concerns regarding societal conditions and the similarities to previous periods of unrest. It is indicated that the societal impact remains significant, with a suggestion that the economic and social challenges faced have persisted for several years, affecting particularly the ordinary citizens.
• 07:30 - 10:00: Comparison to European Protests The chapter discusses the difference in reactions between institutions and ordinary people to various socio-economic challenges. While stock exchanges, banks, or governments may remain largely unaffected, ordinary people experience significant anxiety and fear without relief. This is primarily due to long-term unemployment and its continuous rise over the past thirty years, which affects people on a more personal level.
• 10:00 - 13:30: Divorce Between Power and Politics In this chapter, the focus is on the generational shift in societal values and expectations. The narrative highlights how younger generations traditionally build upon their parents' achievements, aiming to progress further. However, there is a notable shift where younger individuals now feel fortunate if they can merely maintain the standards their parents set. This evolution signifies a fundamental change in societal dynamics, suggesting a movement from progressive advancement to preservation, impacting the nature of society itself.
• 13:30 - 16:00: Challenges of Austerity in Consumer Society The chapter discusses the implications of austerity measures within a consumer-driven society, particularly focusing on the role of neoliberal economics. The concept of living on credit is explored, noting that it became a norm under neoliberal economic policies because it was believed that over time, repaying debts would become easier due to increasing property values and other economic factors. The narrative suggests a reliance on credit and lending systems promoted by banks, influenced by the notion of ever-growing equity as a financial safety net.
• 16:00 - 18:00: Interregnum and Changes in Society The chapter 'Interregnum and Changes in Society' discusses the dynamics between credit card issuers and individuals in a consumer-driven society. Credit card companies pushed for the use of credit cards and loans, highlighting how these financial tools have become integral to their profit models. In this system, individuals who do not engage in borrowing are considered unprofitable to banks, suggesting that consumer behavior, underpinned by credit and debt, is essential for banking profitability. This reflects a larger socio-economic structure where credit usage by consumers is a crucial component in societal functioning.
• 18:00 - 21:00: Loss of Privacy and Celebrity Culture This chapter explores the shift in societal values over the past 20 to 30 years, highlighting a transition from a culture of saving to one driven by credit. It discusses how the principle of 'enjoy yourself now and pay later' has fueled a credit boom, leading to significant changes in economic behavior.
• 21:00 - 23:00: Commercialization of Human Morality The chapter discusses the repercussions of governmental financial interventions, specifically focusing on the vast sums of money paid to banks to recapitalize them. These actions, though necessary at the moment, have long-term effects as the financial burden will eventually be transferred to future generations, indicating a moral and economic challenge.
• 23:00 - 23:30: Conclusion The chapter titled 'Conclusion' reflects on the societal trends and their impact on future generations. It highlights a particular incident of riots in England during the summer, where consumerism was a prominent theme. Young people targeted shops for branded goods like tennis shoes, indicating a societal focus on materialism and consumer culture. This observation serves as a critique of contemporary societal values and raises concerns about the direction in which future generations are headed.

ZYGMUNT BAUMAN I "Modernidade Líquida" I Entrevista Transcription

• 00:00 - 00:30 e [Music]
• 00:30 - 01:00 B for
• 01:00 - 01:30 [Music]
• 01:30 - 02:00 Professor the world seems to be entering another financial crisis uh we barely got out of the one of three years ago
• 02:00 - 02:30 and now people are thinking that this one is going to be just as bad what is that doing to people what is it doing to society I'm not sure whether we are entering another depression might as far as I can judge we never went out of depression since uh uh two or even three years ago we are still in very bad predicament particularly if you ask about the situation of ordinary people not the
• 02:30 - 03:00 ation of stock exchanges Banks or even governments But Ordinary People uh they are uh living in a lot of uh anxiety and fear without any Interruption because uh as you well know um in most countries with very few exceptions in the world the there is a long-term unemployment and unemployment which is constantly Rising for for last 30 years years it
• 03:00 - 03:30 was exactly like that that young people took uh the point to which their parents brought them as as their own starting point they will go further on uh they will advance beyond what their parents parents did now the shocking discovery that they will be lucky if they retain what their parents already achieved that creates a different kind of society doesn't it there different kind of society
• 03:30 - 04:00 and uh uh we were used through the period of neoliberal Economics rean rean sucher economies uh to the idea that we can live on credit why on credit because it's with the course of time it would be easier and easier to repay our debts uh the prices of U our homes will go up and up and thisly and uh all banks and
• 04:00 - 04:30 credit card issuers uh were insisting for to us to take credit cards and take loans because uh they themselves got used to living and profiting out of people repaying interest on the loans uh a person without uh loans without debts is useless for the bank uh there's no profit out of it it's a it's a credit Society precisely consumer
• 04:30 - 05:00 society and a credit Society yes well this boom which we went through in last 20 30 years was entirely by spending money which we have not ear earned uh enjoy yourself now and playay later that was the philosophy we have moved uh 30 years ago we have moved from the culture of saving books into the culture of credit cards which is exactly
• 05:00 - 05:30 the opposite exactly the opposite and now time and now the time came to uh take consequences face the consequences um it uh the the the fabulous sums which were paid into Banks to recapitalize them by the government we have to be repayed by our children and our grandchildren we have mortgage the
• 05:30 - 06:00 future not only of our own generation but of the future generation thinking about that the credit of the consumer Society uh makes me think of the summer when we had riots in England and uh you were here then and I assume you were not surprised to see that the main targets were shops these young people were going for uh tennis shoes and special labeled
• 06:00 - 06:30 shirts and they didn't seem to have a at least in the open a political cause as such they wanted to consume isn't that how you see it yeah well uh it was to be expected actually uh the uh in the areas of London where that all all that happened there was three times uh higher than average Unemployment uh so there plent plenty of
• 06:30 - 07:00 people unemployed plenty of uh uh young people particularly unemployed having nothing to do and uh bored to death without prospects of uh job and uh just imagine yourself in the position uh just in the middle of the area in the middle of the neighborhood is a the littering uh glittering uh shopping ball Supermarket something really inviting inviting everybody who has the right to
• 07:00 - 07:30 entry they there there are no visas officially to enter but they are armed guards who spot people who are loitering who are not promising to the clients and they do whatever they can not to let them in the message of the consum society was sent to all of us not just the selected people uh the ordinary uh average man today day uh see in one day
• 07:30 - 08:00 more commercials than people 100 years ago so in almost the whole life of there so flooded by enticements by whether he can buy or not precise everybody get the same message only some people can do something about it just remember that uh those people who rebelled in London they stole Goods but they also burned
• 08:00 - 08:30 them it was Act of Vengeance of the on the fortresses of consumerism into which they were not allowed to go uh St stealing was one thing but was not just the question of getting good uh which motivated them it was the Revenge themselves for humiliation of being disqualified consumer in a consum
• 08:30 - 09:00 society what what parallels would you establish if any with the for instance the movements the protests and the action taking place in different European capitals mostly by young people Madrid Athens yeah Paris and compare it to what happened in London yeah that's a why no no no no London was so far was unique re consumerist Rebellion it was the
• 09:00 - 09:30 imperfect consumer Rebellion against consumerism not in order to abolish consumerism but in order to join the consumer ory at least for three night a carnival event you know just a break in somber and dark reality it was very unique phenomenon but you are mentioning uh really mive phenomenal
• 09:30 - 10:00 which is extremely interesting also showing that something very important is changing in our society and the uh rebellions in Banu in all over France at some point that in Madrid the movement of the indignant people uh in uh the atam uh you had the Rebellion against the over spending and cutting spending
• 10:00 - 10:30 and the uh The Assault on social rights of people there uh imposed by the uh almost bankruptcy of the of the of the country uh in Israel you had uh uh middle class people going to the street and protesting against the government which spends all the money on military purposes doesn't care for the well-being and then you
• 10:30 - 11:00 have uh all over Arab countries you have the movement the same kind of a movement people go to the streets people go to the Public Square and refuse to leave until uh this particular regime which doesn't give them citizenship right uh is abolished and and opens the and vacates the room for the
• 11:00 - 11:30 some kind of a different system what kind I don't know when I was a young person the major question which occupied myself and my uh contemporaries young people like me was the question what is to be done what should we do what to do to make Society better today the major question is no longer like that people are generally diffusely vaguely afraid and anxious but they don't have a model
• 11:30 - 12:00 of good Society without no Utopia yeah so the the major question today is not what to do people even don't come to think about what is to be done because on the way to asking this question there another question much more difficult to answer question who is going to do it and uh why this question emerged let's go one step for further my
• 12:00 - 12:30 hypothesis that uh the real cause of this uh uh new importance of the question who is going to do it uh is what I call divorce between power and politics power is ability to do things and politics is ability to decide which things ought to be done power and politics until quite
• 12:30 - 13:00 recently 50 years ago it was obvious for everybody that both power and politics are in the state government and if only we decide you and me and all the rest what needs to be done it will be done because the state has the authority to decide that and the state has the power to do things but it is not any any longer the case because we live through divorce
• 13:00 - 13:30 between power and politics uh even in such a developing and thriving country as today Brazil for example uh you have to come you have to reckon with the worldwide situation right what is happening much before the reach beyond the reach of of even uh United States government are the global forces multinationals of All Sorts you
• 13:30 - 14:00 know many aspects of of our uh condition which decide about our prospects our ability to do things our our possibility of improve our condition and so on are beyond the reach of any existing political institution I I wanted to link the the beginning of our conversation with what you just described we have a a financial crisis going on we
• 14:00 - 14:30 have these successive programs of austerity to trying to balance the books as it were and we have the consumer Society you know if you have austerity it's going to be very hard to go through the principles of a consumer Society therefore you're going to build up frustration won't you austerity is not the other really um it is imposed it is perhaps even necessary because simply
• 14:30 - 15:00 what is the alternative printing more money and creating inflation like in 192s or 1970s uh well uh uh it it is a necessity but it is not a cure it is not a cure uh if uh if they are cut they are cut if there's the policy of austerity and this policy of austerity then the national wealth won't be produced and if National weth is not produced
• 15:00 - 15:30 then the depression depends then it not cured um the we can we can get out or at least mitigate partly our financial troubles but doesn't mean that unemployment won't grow it doesn't mean that standard of living will not full uh so uh in the social terms not in financial terms the pression will deepen we're still faced with the push as you
• 15:30 - 16:00 mentioned the commercials the massive commercials who wants us to buy buy new products buy a Model A B and C new and improved as they say yes but remember that the whole idea of consumers the whole idea of consumers a pal Palace for All the Troubles and formula for good life for successful life for happy life for prosperous life the whole idea is very young it was born
• 16:00 - 16:30 by the the late 19th century so it's historical accident in a sense right it looks that we are we are uh standing in front of very very faithful uh choice and the choice will have to be made whether it will be made willingly consciously with awareness or whether it will be imposed on us because imposed because you won't
• 16:30 - 17:00 have any other any other solution to our problems but the choice is there I call uh recently I started to call our present situation situation of internum inter regnum uh internum is a very old concept it comes from uh Titus leus historian in ancient Rome who uh wrote History of Rome up urita from the
• 17:00 - 17:30 creation of the state of the city and uh the first interative was when the first king of ancient Rome robulus after 308 years of rule died uh it's not clear because some people said that he was he went straight to heaven so he didn't die but way he disappeared 38 years now the average
• 17:30 - 18:00 length of human life at that time was exactly 38 years which means that the moment he died there was virtually not a single person who remembered uh life without robs all used to the fact that all the prescriptions and proscriptions came from One S robulus and suddenly he disappeared just imagine yourself in this situation uh so you have a period between Kings you don't know what to do
• 18:00 - 18:30 really you don't know what to do no but it was particularly dramatic not just change What routine change of one king after another but disappearance of the only source of authority until the next king which was Duba uh was appointed there was more than one year and the one year was the year of complete confusion people were simply felt abandoned they didn't know what to do there were no orders of the
• 18:30 - 19:00 day over so we are in such an interre the moment interum means simply that the old ways of doing things no longer work but the new ways of doing things have not been yet invented that's inter and that's why I very shy of predicting future because it may turn any kind of Direction this new generation has been EXP opposed to extensively as we spoke
• 19:00 - 19:30 about before is is the idea that there's no longer privacy that people's lives are exposed their secrets are exposed the celebrity culture is taken over and people even impose their intimacy on you it's that's a fairly new phenomenon they impose but uh the need uh of Expo exposure public exposure of public spiritual Stripes so to speak uh has
• 19:30 - 20:00 been internalized it is no longer imposed uh 8 years old 10 years old children are known today to spend several hours a day in front of their laptops telling everything about themselves to everybody who wants to read and who wants to even those who don't yeah there's the feeling that unless you are seen well not everybody can be SE not television of course if you are seen on television then you are
• 20:00 - 20:30 really an important person but if you can't then at least you are seen on on the screen of computer perhaps someone by accident will wander into your website into your um blog or your Facebook page and and and and the wres to you sends you a message then you feel that you are really a member of uh of the world that you are not left behind you didn't fall out of the vehicle you
• 20:30 - 21:00 were not kicked out you have't been excluded you are in that is the way we are in with the help of online virtual reality right in offline offline is more and more deserted because of the offer of sociality of gregariousness of togetherness of friendship taken over by online
• 21:00 - 21:30 implements but online online offers so it is a another very big change and uh again uh it is too early to sum it up and make any any sort of certain uh confident predictions how it to develop but uh if you add to it also uh the uh commercialization of human
• 21:30 - 22:00 morality what I mean by that that uh uh we have been already converted to obsessive compulsive consumism uh so we have to work very hard uh the borderline between job time work time and Leisure Time office time and family time has been effaced so you
• 22:00 - 22:30 forget about uh your duty moral duty towards your son or daughter or your wife you're always on you can't devoid your time uh you can't dedicate your time to them so what do you do you buy expensive gifts to compensate for your absence and the more expensive gift the more profound is allegedly your uh moral responsibility
• 22:30 - 23:00 and your love so all these taken together they are signal of very profound changes cultural changes I think we are going through a very profound C real cultur Revolution but I don't feel uh really able knowledgeable enough to uh responsibly risk um prognosis in what
• 23:00 - 23:30 direction it will go because as you rightly so said there are so many contradictory pressures on the one hand austerity on the other hand consumer is how to reconcile them Professor thanks very much I think was enlight